View Full Version : The Apostolic Welfare Culture
Nahum
04-02-2007, 09:35 PM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
stmatthew
04-02-2007, 09:37 PM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
I think we need one of those old fashioned 6 week revivals in the old gospel tent.
Nahum
04-02-2007, 09:42 PM
I think we need one of those old fashioned 6 week revivals in the old gospel tent.
Are you kidding? No one would show up. We're too busy.
Plus, our favorite shows may be on.
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
PP,
I have never had that attitude nor made those demands. From the time I was grown I always went to the megachurch first. No small chuch preacher ever had to whine that I left him for the big church across town!!!!!
Nahum
04-02-2007, 09:46 PM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
4. Oh, by the way preacher, I won't be here for the next two weeks. I'm going out of town with some friends. The rest of my family will be here though.
Nahum
04-02-2007, 09:48 PM
PP,
I have never had that attitude nor made those demands. From the time I was grown I always went to the megachurch first. No small chuch preacher ever had to whine that I left him for the big church across town!!!!!
You mean this isn't a competition to see who can MEET YOUR NEEDS in the best possible way? You mean church isn't about YOU? Suely there can't be more to it than that?
I'm shocked.
LadyChocolate
04-02-2007, 09:50 PM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
I think we need one of those old fashioned 6 week revivals in the old gospel tent.
PP...I understand what you are saying.... I miss church in the way it was (and still is in many many places). But sad to say it's not the same...... Sometimes I think the need for entertainment has become so great because waiting on God, and tarrying before the Lord is a lost art.....
And speaking of those 6 weeks revivals, I love them.....We used to have lots of them and the thing about it was I didn't mind them. I saw people coming in and getting saved. We spent time with God. The teaching and preaching fed my soul....I loved it!
What about the ministry ... PP??
I need a more tithers or I'm out ...
I'm here for now but if a better opportunity [salary] comes my way I'm going t to do God's will.
Nahum
04-02-2007, 09:55 PM
PP...I understand what you are saying.... I miss church in the way it was (and still is in many many places). But sad to say it's not the same...... Sometimes I think the need for entertainment has become so great because waiting on God, and tarrying before the Lord is a lost art.....
And speaking of those 6 weeks revivals, I love them.....We used to have lots of them and the thing about it was I didn't mind them. I saw people coming in and getting saved. We spent time with God. The teaching and preaching fed my soul....I loved it!
I had an "ahem" seasoned saint that used to tell me we need to get back to the "old paths". She would whine and complain about these new converts.
She just kept on and on and on.
I finally told her (in a very loving way) that I was ready for old time pennycost too. I told her that the way to it was to get rid of her tv, stop dyeing her hair, and show up for church every time the doors were open.
She never complained again.
LOL
Nahum
04-02-2007, 09:56 PM
What about the ministry ... PP??
I need a more tithers or I'm out ...
I'm here for now but if a better opportunity [salary] comes my way I'm going t to do God's will.
There is a lot of truth in your post. It's sickening isn't it.
VERY FEW want to dig anything out anymore. I'm talking about saints and pastors. Sacrifice seems to be a four letter word nowadays.
LadyChocolate
04-02-2007, 09:59 PM
I had an "ahem" seasoned saint that used to tell me we need to get back to the "old paths". She would whine and complain about these new converts.
She just kept on and on and on.
I finally told her (in a very loving way) that I was ready for old time pennycost too. I told her that the way to it was to get rid of her tv, stop dyeing her hair, and show up for church every time the doors were open.
She never complained again.
LOL
I have found most of those that complain the most don't really want to do their part in the sacrifice it takes to have a move of God.!!!
stmatthew
04-02-2007, 10:00 PM
Well, as soon as we are able to get on tv, we will have revival then!
Nahum
04-02-2007, 10:00 PM
I have found most of those that complain the most don't really want to do their part in the sacrifice it takes to have a move of God.!!!
Yep.
You mean this isn't a competition to see who can MEET YOUR NEEDS in the best possible way? You mean church isn't about YOU? Suely there can't be more to it than that?
I'm shocked.
There are some folks who prefer smaller churches over mega churches. I am just not one of them.
I grew up in a small church of about 50. Had a great time. Loved my pastor, loved the church, etc, etc.
However from my first taste of a big church with a great choir, great music, lots of activities, lots of excelent guest teachers and preachers, etc, etc I was hooked.
I would go to a small church if circumstances called for it but I have only lived in two metropolitan areas over the past 24 years and both places had wonderful large exUPC churches for me to attend.
In my experience for every positive you have at a small church (like more personal attention, more opportunity to sing, etc if that is your interest, etc) there are negatives.
My experience with small Pentecostal churches is that they are usually heavy with busybodies and everybody knows everybody's business. Way too much drama for me.
Nahum
04-02-2007, 10:02 PM
Well, as soon as we are able to get on tv, we will have revival then!
Yeah, that will fix everything.
Its like the old adage that "door-knocking doesn't work anymore".
Its really an excuse for our laziness.
We went out last week for two hours and had new visitors on Sunday.
Yeah, that will fix everything.
Its like the old adage that "door-knocking doesn't work anymore".
Its really an excuse for our laziness.
We went out last week for two hours and had new visitors on Sunday.
Imagine if you had you been out there all afternoon .....:friend
Nahum
04-02-2007, 10:05 PM
Imagine if you had you been out there all afternoon .....:friend
I had "other things" to do.
God help me!
Well, as soon as we are able to get on tv, we will have revival then!
I do not believe that!
anyone who wants to use the method of TV that's their business but i don't believe that has been the missing link for revival
Pastor poster, we are living in the Laodacien church.it will take the hand of God to turn it around at this point
I had "other things" to do.
God help me!
The debil is a liar ....:slaphappy:slaphappy:slaphappy:slaphappy
berkeley
04-03-2007, 12:30 AM
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l242/disorderlyprofusion/berksealofapproval.jpg
Sweet Pea
04-03-2007, 05:34 AM
I had an "ahem" seasoned saint that used to tell me we need to get back to the "old paths". She would whine and complain about these new converts.
She just kept on and on and on.
I finally told her (in a very loving way) that I was ready for old time pennycost too. I told her that the way to it was to get rid of her tv, stop dyeing her hair, and show up for church every time the doors were open.
She never complained again.
LOL
I love it! :slaphappy :slaphappy :slaphappy :slaphappy :slaphappy
philjones
04-03-2007, 06:22 AM
What about the ministry ... PP??
I need a more tithers or I'm out ...
I'm here for now but if a better opportunity [salary] comes my way I'm going t to do God's will.
Dan,
You may know some preachers like this and I am sure if I really try hard enough I do too. BUT... they are in the minority whereas, based on my observations as a worshiper in a church pastored by someone else, those described by PP are becoming a majority in many churches.
In our church we have some folks who have no idea what goes on the first 15 minutes of any service!
Kutless
04-03-2007, 06:24 AM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.1. People should be fed, people should be moved, if its not happening maybe the preachers on welfare or trying to use up his prayer green stamps.
2. Bible study is vital, I thouroughly enjoy our Wed. nites. But I believe fellowship is also vital. Are we required to Bible thump at every gathering? Is simple and fun a sin now also?
3. Americans average more work time than any other country there is. We also take less vacation time on average than any other country. (Heard the stats on talk radio yesterday) In my life its......God
Family
Church
Kutless
04-03-2007, 06:26 AM
I had an "ahem" seasoned saint that used to tell me we need to get back to the "old paths". She would whine and complain about these new converts.
She just kept on and on and on.
I finally told her (in a very loving way) that I was ready for old time pennycost too. I told her that the way to it was to get rid of her tv, stop dyeing her hair, and show up for church every time the doors were open.
She never complained again.
LOLWOW! What a UC turn from a freakishly moderate. Was this TIC?
COOPER
04-03-2007, 06:49 AM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
Sad fact of life man.....
Women love rich men.
Kids like McDonald's big playgrounds.
Guitar players like the nicest gear.
Men like there women pretty.
Us hungry folks like the best deals at food joints especially if there is a wide screen TV.
It's no surprise that humans want the best Churches too.
Step up and be the Best man!:friend
Whole Hearted
04-03-2007, 06:56 AM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
:thumbsup
Ronzo
04-03-2007, 07:01 AM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
1. "Preachers" have created this mentality with the class system they've instituted in what they call 'church'. Clergy/Laity. "Obey those that RULE you". "A PASTOR must set BOUNDARIES". Etc... What do they expect? The whole culture is wrong.
2. What's wrong with making learning interesting and engaging? Sounds like someone doesn't have the skills to make it engaging for kids... and is looking to justify they inability.
3. Well, if some preacher wants to gripe about that, then that's their perogative. Most of us have a life outside of the four walls of that building some call 'a church'. We have jobs that require our attention in order to get paid at them, and support our families. God forbid a preacher be respectful of that and actually be *GASP* Sensitive to the physical needs of the people in the congregation he pastors.
Go ahead... lay some more gripes out. I'm sure you've got more. ;)
Whole Hearted
04-03-2007, 07:08 AM
1. "Preachers" have created this mentality with the class system they've instituted in what they call 'church'. Clergy/Laity. "Obey those that RULE you". "A PASTOR must set BOUNDARIES". Etc... What do they expect? The whole culture is wrong.
2. What's wrong with making learning interesting and engaging? Sounds like someone doesn't have the skills to make it engaging for kids... and is looking to justify they inability.
3. Well, if some preacher wants to gripe about that, then that's their perogative. Most of us have a life outside of the four walls of that building some call 'a church'. We have jobs that require our attention in order to get paid at them, and support our families. God forbid a preacher be respectful of that and actually be *GASP* Sensitive to the physical needs of the people in the congregation he pastors.
Go ahead... lay some more gripes out. I'm sure you've got more. ;)
:crazy :crazy :crazy :crazy :thumbsdown :thumbsdown
COOPER
04-03-2007, 07:10 AM
:crazy :crazy :crazy :crazy :thumbsdown :thumbsdown
He is right you know.
There is more to life and God than just pastors and church.
Who do SOME pastors think they are anyway???
Whole Hearted
04-03-2007, 07:13 AM
A true saints life will revolve around God and His church. Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
MrsMcD
04-03-2007, 07:13 AM
I guess our view depends on which side of the fence we live on.
philjones
04-03-2007, 07:17 AM
1. "Preachers" have created this mentality with the class system they've instituted in what they call 'church'. Clergy/Laity. "Obey those that RULE you". "A PASTOR must set BOUNDARIES". Etc... What do they expect? The whole culture is wrong.
2. What's wrong with making learning interesting and engaging? Sounds like someone doesn't have the skills to make it engaging for kids... and is looking to justify they inability.
3. Well, if some preacher wants to gripe about that, then that's their perogative. Most of us have a life outside of the four walls of that building some call 'a church'. We have jobs that require our attention in order to get paid at them, and support our families. God forbid a preacher be respectful of that and actually be *GASP* Sensitive to the physical needs of the people in the congregation he pastors.
Go ahead... lay some more gripes out. I'm sure you've got more. ;)
While I have no argument with the majority of what you have stated and I will not argue the things I disagree with, I feel that PP was actually posting concerns more than gripes. The items he posted are symptoms of a deeper rooted problem and if we do not deal with the cause we will always have symptoms of one kind or another.
I leave you with this paraphrase of scripture (it inconveniences me to have to look it up) In Him I LIVE and MOVE and have my BEING... Outside of Jesus Christ I do not have a life, a cause or an existence!:tiphat
p.s. Tell Dee I said "HEY!"
COOPER
04-03-2007, 07:19 AM
A true saints life will revolve around God and His church. Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
Men build churches and say it's Gods work.
It's not the Kingdom of God.
The first important ministry one has is his family.
He that is married cares for the things of the world and how he may please his wife.
It's God, Family, Job then...........Church.
If you cant take care of your family don't get involved in a church.
philjones
04-03-2007, 07:19 AM
I guess our view depends on which side of the fence we live on.
The fact that there is perceived to be a fence is sad in and of itself!
Don't let the hand get upset because it is not a foot or the eye because it is not an ear. Rather let us all realize that each of is jointly fit and framed into the body for the purpose to which God has called us and while one may lead and one may follow they are both equally important and needed in the body!
Whole Hearted
04-03-2007, 07:20 AM
I leave you with this paraphrase of scripture (it inconveniences me to have to look it up) In Him I LIVE and MOVE and have my BEING... Outside of Jesus Christ I do not have a life, a cause or an existence!:tiphat
[/QUOTE]
:thumbsup
MrsMcD
04-03-2007, 07:20 AM
A true saints life will revolve around God and His church. Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
I agree but I don't believe God's church is in four walls of a building.
Whole Hearted
04-03-2007, 07:23 AM
Men build churches and say it's Gods work.
It's not the Kingdom of God.
The first important ministry one has is his family.
He that is married cares for the things of the world and how he may please his wife.
It's God, Family, Job then...........Church.
If you cant take care of your family don't get involved in a church.
If one truly loves his family he will not only provide for physical need but also spiritual one. If ones doesn't get their families in church and involved in church he doesn't truly love them. Everything that money can buy will pass away, but the things of God are eternal.
One cannot be saved without a preacher.
MrsMcD
04-03-2007, 07:24 AM
The fact that there is perceived to be a fence is sad in and of itself!
Don't let the hand get upset because it is not a foot or the eye because it is not an ear. Rather let us all realize that each of is jointly fit and framed into the body for the purpose to which God has called us and while one may lead and one may follow they are both equally important and needed in the body!
I agree!
Whole Hearted
04-03-2007, 07:24 AM
I agree but I don't believe God's church is in four walls of a building.
Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together.
Ronzo
04-03-2007, 07:26 AM
I leave you with this paraphrase of scripture (it inconveniences me to have to look it up) In Him I LIVE and MOVE and have my BEING... Outside of Jesus Christ I do not have a life, a cause or an existence!:tiphat
I'll leave you with this...
In Christ, yes! But not "church" as we know it today.
freeatlast
04-03-2007, 07:26 AM
1. "Preachers" have created this mentality with the class system they've instituted in what they call 'church'. Clergy/Laity. "Obey those that RULE you". "A PASTOR must set BOUNDARIES". Etc... What do they expect? The whole culture is wrong.
2. What's wrong with making learning interesting and engaging? Sounds like someone doesn't have the skills to make it engaging for kids... and is looking to justify they inability.
3. Well, if some preacher wants to gripe about that, then that's their perogative. Most of us have a life outside of the four walls of that building some call 'a church'. We have jobs that require our attention in order to get paid at them, and support our families. God forbid a preacher be respectful of that and actually be *GASP* Sensitive to the physical needs of the people in the congregation he pastors.
Go ahead... lay some more gripes out. I'm sure you've got more. ;)
Been there, done that , and they didn''t even give me a T-shirt.
Been Church FIRST - Church SECOND- God third Job -fourth (with much $ going to the church) Family...so sorry, no time left.
We say we are Apostolic but follow the CLERGY class system laid out for us by the RC church.
Clergy is to be"set upon a pedestal" their every need and whim met.
Give me house to live in , tax breaks, and a weekly check and I'll come and share the gospel with you.
You saints, however, are not worthy of your hire.
Some have gone so far in this clergy worship, that they have some one carry their bible for them. They have servants, to wipe their brow as they lather up in sweat, doing what they claim is delivering the words from God.
HOW DARE someone that is just a saint think that their church should care about their schedules, their family time, the kind of music they enjoy in worship. That any thought to their work schedules should be considered when scheduling services and other acrivities in church.
Before you all stone me, I'm "clergy class" too. So less get this thread back on track and bash Saints who desire to attend a church that cares. This sometimes does require "changing churches"
WOW...maybe I should have another cup of coffee before I post this.
philjones
04-03-2007, 07:28 AM
Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together.
Whole Hearted,
This is a true command in the NT but I also know that you know that the Kingdom is SOOOO much more than just the assembling of ourselves together. Unfortunately I know folks that NEVER miss an assembling that are only involved in the Kingdom on those days.
I believe that EVERYTHING we do should be measured in its value to or ability to bless The Kingdom of God! If an action cannot in any way bless the Kingdom of God then it is probably not the will of God but it is the will of man!
Just the way I live my life.
philjones
04-03-2007, 07:29 AM
I'll leave you with this...
In Christ, yes! But not "church" as we know it today.
You are a clever man and read between the lines quite well...
read the above post of mine and you will see that we are indeed in agreement.... sort of ;)
PP,
I have never had that attitude nor made those demands. From the time I was grown I always went to the megachurch first. No small chuch preacher ever had to whine that I left him for the big church across town!!!!!
I'm with you CC1. I won't go to a church that doesn't serve donuts. :winkgrin
philjones
04-03-2007, 07:31 AM
Been there, done that , and they didn''t even give me a T-shirt.
Been Church FIRST - Church SECOND- God third Job -fourth (with much $ going to the church) Family...so sorry, no time left.
We say we are Apostolic but follow the CLERGY class system laid out for us by the RC church.
Clergy is to be"set upon a pedestal" their every need and whim met.
Give me house to live in , tax breaks, and a weekly check and I'll come and share the gospel with you.
You saints, however, are not worthy of your hire.
Some have gone so far in this clergy worship, that they have some one carry their bible for them. They have servants, to wipe their brow as they lather up in sweat, doing what they claim is delivering the words from God.
HOW DARE someone that is just a saint think that their church should care about their schedules, their family time, the kind of music they enjoy in worship. That any thought to their work schedules should be considered when scheduling services and other acrivities in church.
Before you all stone me, I'm "clergy class" too. So less get this thread back on track and bash Saints who desire to attend a church that cares. This sometimes does require "changing churches"
WOW...maybe I should have another cup of coffee before I post this.
Honestly, FAL, is it a church that cares they desire or is it a church that entertains and has few if any expectations of them? I am not saying that the mega church cannot also be a caring church but i am saying that the motive of the saint, just like that of the preacher, can be off target and wrong! (love redundancy):tiphat
Kutless
04-03-2007, 07:36 AM
A true saints life will revolve around God and His church. Seek ye first the kingdom of God.I love my church, my pastor, etc. I'm involved whole hearted. I believe its of utmost importance.
But if you think for a second one should walk away from a sick kid or cancel much needed family devotion. Or neglect family time?????
Ronzo
04-03-2007, 07:37 AM
You are a clever man and read between the lines quite well...
read the above post of mine and you will see that we are indeed in agreement.... sort of ;)
I know what you're getting at. ;)
This isn't for you, Phil, because I believe you already know it and grasp it...
If we spend nearly all our 'free' time at church (Sunday morning, Sunday night, Tuesday prayer meeting, Wednesday night church, Thrusday night choir, etc) when do we have time to actually build our relationships not only with our own familes, but with the 'unchurched'... not to mention get enough rest to be effective at our jobs so we can actually provide for our families?
Men are the priests of the home. A priest not only takes care of the spiritual things, but he takes care of the physical needs in the house as well.
Assembling does not require meeting within a four walled designated meeting place... God does exist outside those walls last time I checked.
Kutless
04-03-2007, 07:39 AM
If one truly loves his family he will not only provide for physical need but also spiritual one. If ones doesn't get their families in church and involved in church he doesn't truly love them. Everything that money can buy will pass away, but the things of God are eternal.
One cannot be saved without a preacher.providing spiritually for my family does not require a church bldg.
Although we are faithful in attendance.
freeatlast
04-03-2007, 07:47 AM
Honestly, FAL, is it a church that cares they desire or is it a church that entertains and has few if any expectations of them? I am not saying that the mega church cannot also be a caring church but i am saying that the motive of the saint, just like that of the preacher, can be off target and wrong! (love redundancy):tiphat
Phil this America. Land of capitilism and competetion. I've known whiny pastors who grubled that "their folks was a leavin".
Complained "their saints" moved off to the greener grasses of a church that had it going on.
All the while they complained, they also did nothing to make the church they pastor more "user friendly" They contuinued to show up each week and dole out the "weekly beating", they so sadly called a sermon.
Then wonderd aloud about the unappreciative bunch of saints God had "blessed" him with.
If your'e not treating the Children of God right, doing what God is blessing, instead of asking God to bless what you are doing. Well then grumble all you want, I ain't buying what your'e sellling,
Not you personally Phil.
MrsMcD
04-03-2007, 07:54 AM
Phil this America. Land of capitilism and competetion. I've known whiny pastors who grubled that "their folks was a leavin".
Complained "their saints" moved off to the greener grasses of a church that had it going on.
All the while they complained, they also did nothing to make the church they pastor more "user friendly" They contuinued to show up each week and dole out the "weekly beating", they so sadly called a sermon.
Then wonderd aloud about the unappreciative bunch of saints God had "blessed" him with.
If your'e not treating the Children of God right, doing what God is blessing, instead of asking God to bless what you are doing. Well then grumble all you want, I ain't buying what your'e sellling,
Not you personally Phil.
The bolded part is what is sad to me. I doubt some (if any) of the pastors on this forum understand it because they aren't like this. I can tell you first hand, "weekly beatings" happen!
philjones
04-03-2007, 07:58 AM
Phil this America. Land of capitilism and competetion. I've known whiny pastors who grubled that "their folks was a leavin".
Complained "their saints" moved off to the greener grasses of a church that had it going on.
All the while they complained, they also did nothing to make the church they pastor more "user friendly" They contuinued to show up each week and dole out the "weekly beating", they so sadly called a sermon.
Then wonderd aloud about the unappreciative bunch of saints God had "blessed" him with.
If your'e not treating the Children of God right, doing what God is blessing, instead of asking God to bless what you are doing. Well then grumble all you want, I ain't buying what your'e sellling,
Not you personally Phil.
FAL,
Will you at least agree that there are quite a few folks who are of the entertain me mindset?
Let me share a true story:
My dad pastored in a rural area in Louisiana for 15 years (1979 to 1994). During that time he averaged around 100 to 125 in regular church attendance. Folks that had been traveling to other churches (20+ miles one way) came back once they found that they had a pastor that was committed to the area and the people of the community.
Today, this same church has a pastor who is just as committed and has been there for almost as long as Dad was. They now struggle to run 45 or 50. Why? Well, there is only a small # of young folks so we are going to drive 20+ miles one way to a church that has something for my kids. The music isn't good enough or we just like Sunday School PROGRAM in town. There are folks who live in the rural community that drive right in front of the only witness their community has for truth to go to a church that scratches their own personal itch.
To me this is sad... I have even questioned the value of the rural church and wondered should we just shut them all down and consolidate all the smaller churches into one big mega church.
This is a real concern of mine and I think belittling the pastors or the saints is not the answer. Rather we need to all come to a clearer understanding of what we are here for... forget Warren's hog wash and get down to the brass tacks of it all. We need to get focused on the Kingdom and forget our personal preferences... not just in what church we attend but in every area of our lives!
philjones
04-03-2007, 07:59 AM
The bolded part is what is sad to me. I doubt some (if any) of the pastors on this forum understand it because they aren't like this. I can tell you first hand, "weekly beatings" happen!
Unfortunately, yes they do... sometimes from the pulpit and sometimes from the pew!:tiphat
freeatlast
04-03-2007, 08:10 AM
FAL,
Will you at least agree that there are quite a few folks who are of the entertain me mindset?
Let me share a true story:
My dad pastored in a rural area in Louisiana for 15 years (1979 to 1994). During that time he averaged around 100 to 125 in regular church attendance. Folks that had been traveling to other churches (20+ miles one way) came back once they found that they had a pastor that was committed to the area and the people of the community.
Today, this same church has a pastor who is just as committed and has been there for almost as long as Dad was. They now struggle to run 45 or 50. Why? Well, there is only a small # of young folks so we are going to drive 20+ miles one way to a church that has something for my kids. The music isn't good enough or we just like Sunday School PROGRAM in town. There are folks who live in the rural community that drive right in front of the only witness their community has for truth to go to a church that scratches their own personal itch.
To me this is sad... I have even questioned the value of the rural church and wondered should we just shut them all down and consolidate all the smaller churches into one big mega church.
This is a real concern of mine and I think belittling the pastors or the saints is not the answer. Rather we need to all come to a clearer understanding of what we are here for... forget Warren's hog wash and get down to the brass tacks of it all. We need to get focused on the Kingdom and forget our personal preferences... not just in what church we attend but in every area of our lives!
Agreed Phil: We have world full of people that are of the Entertain me mentality.
What are we to do with them? how will we reach them.
We live in an entertainment society. We want it now! Fast food rules the day.
Walmart's everyway, driving the Ma and Pa operations out of bussiness.
People go in one store..search for one parking spot ..go in and get er down..groceries to tires for you car. School supplies to clothing..at the Mega sTore.
My daughter moved off to college, away from our then 60 member church and stayed in her college town of St LOuis. The draw? A large young peoples group compared to ur 10 kids.
That's who I feel for the worse Phil,. The young adolesent that has been brought up on our american culture. We are not retaining them on a regualr basis in our "small is good" churches. It just is'nt happening consistently.
I have allready spent to long here today. I gotta go to work.
God bless
freeatlast
04-03-2007, 08:17 AM
The bolded part is what is sad to me. I doubt some (if any) of the pastors on this forum understand it because they aren't like this. I can tell you first hand, "weekly beatings" happen!
We have not delivered a "weekly beating " kind of message in my church for years.
We had several families move in here from the nighboring church that i got that phrase , weekly beating" from.
They copmplained "over there " that we are stealing "their saints"
HOGWASH.....You beat your wife and she leaves ya..everybody says good for her!!
You beat upon people that desire to worship in the church you pastor. Don't get all whiny when they leave ya for another.
Call it hoeing down the corn, skinning the hogs, stepping on toes..whatever floats your boat. Calling it something cute, does'nt make any less offensive.
COOPER
04-03-2007, 08:22 AM
If one truly loves his family he will not only provide for physical need but also spiritual one. If ones doesn't get their families in church and involved in church he doesn't truly love them. Everything that money can buy will pass away, but the things of God are eternal.
One cannot be saved without a preacher.
Very big misnomer of the word
"How can they hear with out a Preacher" is what the word says.
We are all preachers of the good news of Jesus and him crucified.
COOPER
04-03-2007, 08:29 AM
Very big misnomer of the word
"How can they hear with out a Preacher" is what the word says.
We are all preachers of the good news of Jesus and him crucified.
Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:13-15 (in Context) Romans 10 (Whole Chapter)
:winkgrin
BoredOutOfMyMind
04-03-2007, 08:42 AM
is the Internet the new Entertainment Media supporting Apostolic Welfare Recipients?
COOPER
04-03-2007, 08:45 AM
is the Internet the new Entertainment Media supporting Apostolic Welfare Recipients?
Black kettle you!
Rhoni
04-03-2007, 08:45 AM
There are some folks who prefer smaller churches over mega churches. I am just not one of them.
I grew up in a small church of about 50. Had a great time. Loved my pastor, loved the church, etc, etc.
However from my first taste of a big church with a great choir, great music, lots of activities, lots of excelent guest teachers and preachers, etc, etc I was hooked.
I would go to a small church if circumstances called for it but I have only lived in two metropolitan areas over the past 24 years and both places had wonderful large exUPC churches for me to attend.
In my experience for every positive you have at a small church (like more personal attention, more opportunity to sing, etc if that is your interest, etc) there are negatives.
My experience with small Pentecostal churches is that they are usually heavy with busybodies and everybody knows everybody's business. Way too much drama for me.
CC1,
First, I read through most of the responses on this thread and came back to respond to yours. Because if closely relates to how I feel/think about things, I will have to say these things...Pastor Poster - please take the time to understand my point of view without trashing me for being a : 1. man-hater, or 2. A ministry eater.
Here goes:
1. The older we get the more we only remember the good things about the good old days, and not the negative ones.
example: We were primarily poor, under-educated, and the church was our whole life. Sunday morning: Sunday School, Sunday Night-evangelistic service, Monday night-Peanut Brittle, Tuesday night - Prayer meeting, Wednesday night- Bible study, Thursday night - Peanut brittle, Friday night - Youth service, Saturday morning - Bus ministry. In the other times, most of the time during scheduled public school hours - Bible Quizzing, Youth Congress, General Conference, and Bible Quiz meets.
Our unsaved spouses stayed unsaved and could not be fit into our schedule. Our young people could barely finish High School much less be prepared to go to college or get a good paying job to take them out of the Poverty Culture they were in. Church bills could get paid through peanut briittle sales, but few had time for their families and families fell apart. A lot of services were being held - a little spit, a shout, and we had strength to make it through the next week.
The positives: Churches were maturing, people were getting delivered, and those of us [myself included] whose parents did not know how to parent them due to the transgenerational sins of the family, i.e., mental illness, alcoholism, drug addiction, poverty, disease, and demon possession were getting parented by the church and the Pastor was the god-father and kept us reigned in with dress standards, manipulating us into who to marry, where to go, what to do, and how to appear in public. We learned the form/a form of Godliness which would bring us into where we are today.
2. Different personalities/people choose different churches for different reasons.
Examples from back in the day: I enjoyed evangelizing in many different situations, 1. the small country churches [actually the most loving and giving people I know], 2. the large metro churches [all UPCI/Apostolic] who paid the best but could rarely be moved to revival because they were pompous and arrogant., and 3. the medium sized churches who wanted to grow but if revival happened and they grew they got criticized by all of the neighboring churches for 'compromising' and the church buckled under the criticism and became like all those around them...losing as many people as they gained.
Examples today:
1. Those who like smaller churches because:
a. they like the family feeling, close associations, and enmeshment of others into their family systems.
b. they like to get involved in areas of ministry that big churches won't allow them to be involved in because they have those more qualified.
c. they like to know the Pastor and his family on an intimate level.
d. they need someone to tell them what to do and how to do it
e. this is all they know.
2. Those who like larger churches because:
a. They value autonomy, and don't want to know other people's business, and don't want other people knowing their business.
b. They only want to be involved in ministry they are qualified for and some don't want a leadership or ministry position at all.
c. The church is respite from the world, not part of their daily social or work circle.
d. Those with children want only qualified and those with legal clearance to work with their children and all that entails: security so the children are supervised by those not known as pedophiles, or predators; those who do not let just anyone pick up their children but want themselves only to have access to picking up their children; and those qualified to teach to make sure their children are getting the best possible spiritual education and guidance.
e. Programs that are diverse and meet the needs of the community: Music ministries, children's ministries, youth ministries, single's ministries, Divorce Recovery, Adult electives for Bible Classes taught by qualified teachers, counseling, Spanish ministries, Deaf ministries, ect...
We need to stop judging churches that are larger than ours as 'compromising' or inferior and stop judging the smaller churches as rigid and stunted. We need to see and understand that churches, like people, are different and are there to meet the needs of people individually.
I have worked in home missions work, cut my teeth on the smaller works until they grew. I was young and now am older and my needs have changed, as well as the needs of the churches. I need/want a larger church that is not so needy that I have to fill roles I am not comfortable with any longer...I want to function in the things I have a passion for: counseling & teaching.
You say it is selfish to want/expect something of the church I attend? So be it. I want to be fed. I want to give, but I want an equal relationship with the church...give and take.
I said all that to say...those who critisize mega churches, in my opinion are jealous of the accomplishments of others and instead of being happy for the success of your brother, are resentful and prefer to tear down the mega churches out of laziness and failure to try and build up their own church.:tiphat
JMHO, Rhoni
philjones
04-03-2007, 08:46 AM
is the Internet the new Entertainment Media supporting Apostolic Welfare Recipients?
NICE!!!! Ruin my day... I think I will go to another forum where the leadership is not so opinionated and doesn't step on my toes with personal views and interpretations!:ignore :nah :grampa
You say it is selfish to want/expect something of the church I attend? So be it. I want to be fed. I want to give, but I want an equal relationship with the church...give and take.
I said all that to say...those who critisize mega churches, in my opinion are jealous of the accomplishments of others and instead of being happy for the success of your brother, are resentful and prefer to tear down the mega churches out of laziness and failure to try and build up their own church.:tiphat
JMHO, Rhoni
I won't say that those who critcize mega churches are necessarily jealous. I think sometimes it's just that they actually live out what is preached in UPC churches. Everybody else kind of seems like a hypocrite.
But I now definately expect something of the church I attend. I'm done doing all the giving. I guess that's part of why I no longer attend a UPC.
Rhoni
04-03-2007, 09:14 AM
I won't say that those who critcize mega churches are necessarily jealous. I think sometimes it's just that they actually live out what is preached in UPC churches. Everybody else kind of seems like a hypocrite.
But I now definately expect something of the church I attend. I'm done doing all the giving. I guess that's part of why I no longer attend a UPC.
ILG,
My mother was one who filled every vacant position and every need in the church...she gave out so much and when she wanted relief from some of her responsibilites they labelled her as backslid and wrote her off. She found no place of rest or respite. If she had been allowed to only function in the areas that she did so with a passion then she would not have burned out...of course 15 years of giving was more than most could do and I wish she would /could find a place of refuge in God and get back to a place in God of healing.
Blessings, Rhoni
Ronzo
04-03-2007, 09:22 AM
is the Internet the new Entertainment Media supporting Apostolic Welfare Recipients?
*CRACK*
:ignore
That was the sound of my toe that you just stepped on, sir!
:nah
ILG,
My mother was one who filled every vacant position and every need in the church...she gave out so much and when she wanted relief from some of her responsibilites they labelled her as backslid and wrote her off. She found no place of rest or respite. If she had been allowed to only function in the areas that she did so with a passion then she would not have burned out...of course 15 years of giving was more than most could do and I wish she would /could find a place of refuge in God and get back to a place in God of healing.
Blessings, Rhoni
I did that. I gave way too much and I'm so burnt out it isn't even funny. But I will pray for your Mom. It is sad that she doesn't find refuge in God. That is the only place of rest that there is and the only place of healing. :(
Nahum
04-03-2007, 09:28 AM
I love my church, my pastor, etc. I'm involved whole hearted. I believe its of utmost importance.
But if you think for a second one should walk away from a sick kid or cancel much needed family devotion. Or neglect family time?????
Whatever.:ignore
Who said anything about walking away from a sick kid or neglecting your family?
I wonder how many times this new breed of "Apostolics" miss church for "family time" and then the "family" goes its separate ways while mom and dad enjoy their entertaining weekend away from the church?
I mean, afer all, church is so stressful!
I don't put my family before God.
God first.
Family
Church
Job
Whatever.:ignore
Who said anything about walking away from a sick kid or neglecting your family?
I wonder how many times this new breed of "Apostolics" miss church for "family time" and then the "family" goes its separate ways while mom and dad enjoy their entertaining weekend away from the church?
I mean, afer all, church is so stressful!
I don't put my family before God.
God first.
Family
Church
Job
That is the order I keep.
If I am sick my wife says take care I'm going to Church, and vice-versa.
If one of the kids is sick one of us stays home.
Nahum
04-03-2007, 09:36 AM
This thread is so cool.
When did I bash megachurches? I love large churches. Someday the church I pastor will be large.
My point is that people are lazy FOR THE KINGDOM. They can work 24/7 for things they WANT, but have no time for the things of God.
Sure there are lazy preachers. Sure there are preachers that beat their people up. But this thread is not about them. Its about 21st century Apostolics who are too lazy to work for the kingdom.
They are too busy satisfying their worldly desires.
Ronzo
04-03-2007, 09:40 AM
This thread is so cool.
When did I bash megachurches? I love large churches. Someday the church I pastor will be large.
My point is that people are lazy FOR THE KINGDOM. They can work 24/7 for things they WANT, but have no time for the things of God.
Sure there are lazy preachers. Sure there are preachers that beat their people up. But this thread is not about them. Its about 21st century Apostolics who are too lazy to work for the kingdom.
They are too busy satisfying their worldly desires.
Get off the net and get to church :slaphappy
(TIC)
Coonskinner
04-03-2007, 09:41 AM
This thread is so cool.
When did I bash megachurches? I love large churches. Someday the church I pastor will be large.
My point is that people are lazy FOR THE KINGDOM. They can work 24/7 for things they WANT, but have no time for the things of God.
Sure there are lazy preachers. Sure there are preachers that beat their people up. But this thread is not about them. Its about 21st century Apostolics who are too lazy to work for the kingdom.
They are too busy satisfying their worldly desires.
You have shot an arrow unerringly right smack dab into the middle of the fat backside of one of the most sacred of all sacred cows on this board.
This partcular sacred cow transcends the liberal/conservative divide.:)
Congratulations...but you know you are burnt toast now.:)
At least in the minds of the lazy, the uncommitted, the backslidden and backsliding, and all retreads in general.
:happydance
This thread is so cool.
When did I bash megachurches? I love large churches. Someday the church I pastor will be large.
My point is that people are lazy FOR THE KINGDOM. They can work 24/7 for things they WANT, but have no time for the things of God.
Sure there are lazy preachers. Sure there are preachers that beat their people up. But this thread is not about them. Its about 21st century Apostolics who are too lazy to work for the kingdom.
They are too busy satisfying their worldly desires.
That is both true & sad at the same time.
A lot of Saints have the attitude that "someone else" can do the sacrificing.
I am not pointing any fingers, but I have seen it.
Where is the spirit of sacrifice that the Church once had?
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.This "culture" is not limited to Apostolic churches.
This thread is so cool.
When did I bash megachurches? I love large churches. Someday the church I pastor will be large.
My point is that people are lazy FOR THE KINGDOM. They can work 24/7 for things they WANT, but have no time for the things of God.
Sure there are lazy preachers. Sure there are preachers that beat their people up. But this thread is not about them. Its about 21st century Apostolics who are too lazy to work for the kingdom.
They are too busy satisfying their worldly desires.
Sorry, PP, I didn't mean to imply you said something you didn't.
You have shot an arrow unerringly right smack dab into the middle of the fat backside of one of the most sacred of all sacred cows on this board.
This partcular sacred cow transcends the liberal/conservative divide.:)
Congratulations...but you know you are burnt toast now.:)
At least in the minds of the lazy, the uncommitted, the backslidden and backsliding, and all retreads in general.
:happydance
Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that gets hit yelps!
FTR There was a slight yelp from my corner.
Nahum
04-03-2007, 09:44 AM
Posted by Rhoni:
Pastor Poster - please take the time to understand my point of view without trashing me for being a : 1. man-hater, or 2. A ministry eater.
Rhoni, I have recently discovered that you are so biased that I cannot discuss these sorts of things with you in a reasonable manner. Your feelings are very well known. You have one perspective only. That's cool.
This "culture" is not limited to Apostolic churches.
True.
Nahum
04-03-2007, 09:48 AM
Get off the net and get to church :slaphappy
(TIC)
I am not saying entertainment is wrong. I am saying that an unhealthy fixation with personal gratification goes against everything biblical.
Everybody needs a little time away now and then. But not every other weekend. It gets ridiculous.
MrsMcD
04-03-2007, 09:50 AM
This "culture" is not limited to Apostolic churches.
I agree!
The majority of churches probably have the same issues in regard to people being willing to show up for church, etc.
I am not saying entertainment is wrong. I am saying that an unhealthy fixation with personal gratification goes against everything biblical.
Everybody needs a little time away now and then. But not every other weekend. It gets ridiculous.
Let a man deny himself...
Where have I heard that before?:hmmm
Nahum
04-03-2007, 09:51 AM
You have shot an arrow unerringly right smack dab into the middle of the fat backside of one of the most sacred of all sacred cows on this board.
This partcular sacred cow transcends the liberal/conservative divide.:)
Congratulations...but you know you are burnt toast now.:)
At least in the minds of the lazy, the uncommitted, the backslidden and backsliding, and all retreads in general.
:happydance
Oh well, everybody Jesus chose to be in His inner circle was already busy doing something else. He said, "follow me" and they did.
Now when Jesus says "follow me" there is an immediate scream of "buuuuuuuut Jesus, I'm too busy"!
Ronzo
04-03-2007, 09:54 AM
I am not saying entertainment is wrong. I am saying that an unhealthy fixation with personal gratification goes against everything biblical.
Everybody needs a little time away now and then. But not every other weekend. It gets ridiculous.
I can understand your point. ;)
I don't necessarily see it the same way you do, but I do agree that if one runs away from 'assembling' with other believers more often than not, there is something wrong... but I wouldn't broad brush it as "and unhealthy fixation with personal gratification".
Sometimes it's a perception issue... as in, they're just not looking in the right direction after they got sidetracked... Sometimes it is as you've described... It could be any number of things...
And maybe they're just not getting what they need... and feel that the 'leadership' isn't truly understanding or in tune with the congregation, or their own needs.
One size does not always fit all...
1. People should be fed, people should be moved, if its not happening maybe the preachers on welfare or trying to use up his prayer green stamps.But they are not to be gluttons. It is not the pastor's job to "move" the saints: if the saints are listening to what the Holy Ghost is saying to them, they will automatically be moved. If they're not being moved, they're not listening to the Holy Ghost (or what the pastor is preaching is not of God).
2. Bible study is vital, I thouroughly enjoy our Wed. nites. But I believe fellowship is also vital. Are we required to Bible thump at every gathering? Is simple and fun a sin now also?The saints need to get off their blessed assurance and study their Bibles at home on their own IN ADDITION TO attending Bible Study where they can be taught by godly men. As for fellowship, certainly it's essential but it is not the emphasis. The purpose of the "five-fold ministry," after all, is to equip the saints so that the saints can do the WORK of serving God.
3. Americans average more work time than any other country there is. We also take less vacation time on average than any other country. (Heard the stats on talk radio yesterday) In my life its......God
Family
ChurchIf a man will not work, he ought not to eat. The BIBLE says that God appointed SIX DAYS for working and ONE DAY for rest. And, NO, it's not God, Family, Church, it's God, Church, Family. Can you imagine what would have happened if Peter had put his family before doing the work Jesus called him to do? If family is first, then why was Peter going all over Israel with Jesus instead of staying home with his family and working his job to support his family?
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 09:57 AM
Oh well, everybody Jesus chose to be in His inner circle was already busy doing something else. He said, "follow me" and they did.
Now when Jesus says "follow me" there is an immediate scream of "buuuuuuuut Jesus, I'm too busy"!
PP,
I read or heard that, statistically, no matter how large or small your church is you will normally get only 25% of the people that are faithful to work and to give.
What do you think? Sound about right?
Nahum
04-03-2007, 09:59 AM
I can understand your point. ;)
I don't necessarily see it the same way you do, but I do agree that if one runs away from 'assembling' with other believers more often than not, there is something wrong... but I wouldn't broad brush it as "and unhealthy fixation with personal gratification".
Sometimes it's a perception issue... as in, they're just not looking in the right direction after they got sidetracked... Sometimes it is as you've described... It could be any number of things...
And maybe they're just not getting what they need... and feel that the 'leadership' isn't truly understanding or in tune with the congregation, or their own needs.
One size does not always fit all...
Why are people so dependant on "leadership" understanding their needs?
What is the pastor - psychic?
Maybe they are looking to the church for things that the church isn't supposed to be doing?
Nahum
04-03-2007, 10:01 AM
PP,
I read or heard that, statistically, no matter how large or small your church is you will normally get only 25% of the people that are faithful to work and to give.
What do you think? Sound about right?
This sounds about right. Revival churches are different though. For real revival and spiritual growth to take place, a majority of the church will need to show real cohesiveness.
I'm not talking about expansion. I'm talking real growth.
Coonskinner
04-03-2007, 10:01 AM
It's all about me.
Me being understood by leadership.
Me getting what I need.
Me being serviced and coddled and pampered and affirmed and edified.
Getting, receiving, taking.
Ronzo
04-03-2007, 10:03 AM
Why are people so dependant on "leadership" understanding their needs?
What is the pastor - psychic?
Maybe they are looking to the church for things that the church isn't supposed to be doing?
Can ya blame them? When the Pastor is set up as the ultimate authority in that 'church'?
If the Pastor is the RULER of the congregation... People always look to their RULER to meet their needs.
:grampa
Rhoni
04-03-2007, 10:05 AM
Rhoni, I have recently discovered that you are so biased that I cannot discuss these sorts of things with you in a reasonable manner. Your feelings are very well known. You have one perspective only. That's cool.
Pastor Poster,
You don't know me well...you have taken other's opinions and posts and made them your own feelings about me...I aggravate certain posters because I do not hide issues...but I can discuss without name calling and being close-minded. My responses have been defensive many times because of extreme judgements and biases shown toward my profession and education. Some hold my past against me...I have sinned, as has those who judge me. But I have learned from my mistakes and...there is therfore now no condemnation...I refuse the judgements, but I can discuss issues.:winkgrin
Blessings, Rhoni
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 10:05 AM
This sounds about right. Revival churches are different though. For real revival and spiritual growth to take place, a majority of the church will need to show real cohesiveness.
I'm not talking about expansion. I'm talking real growth.
This is true, although, looking back over the years it seems it's always - from church to church - the same few that put everything into it.
Sometimes positions are tied up and others don't feel like they have as much a part and so they don't get as involved. That is what I have seen.
What I wish the whole church could see is that anyone in the prayer room is probably the most important entity the church has.
Eliseus
04-03-2007, 10:06 AM
the church in America is generally selfish.
However, God is soon going to fix that.
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 10:06 AM
It's all about me.
Me being understood by leadership.
Me getting what I need.
Me being serviced and coddled and pampered and affirmed and edified.
Getting, receiving, taking.
Tithing is on the way. Look for the envelope. :toofunny :toofunny
Kutless
04-03-2007, 10:07 AM
Whatever.:ignore
Who said anything about walking away from a sick kid or neglecting your family?
I wonder how many times this new breed of "Apostolics" miss church for "family time" and then the "family" goes its separate ways while mom and dad enjoy their entertaining weekend away from the church?
I mean, afer all, church is so stressful!
I don't put my family before God.
God first.
Family
Church
JobWhatever right back atcha! My examples although extreme are very real to me. IN fact my former pastor was very displeased with me for staying home with my sick daughter so that my wife could geet some rest as she was up the night before. You know the pastor that has "treated you well"???????
Lording over people is not the job of a pastor.
Ronzo
04-03-2007, 10:08 AM
It's all about me.
Me being understood by leadership.
Me getting what I need.
Me being serviced and coddled and pampered and affirmed and edified.
Getting, receiving, taking.
Or the reverse...
"It's all about me", says the Pastor.
"Tell me I preach good"
"Ask me for permission to make your decisions"
"GIVE me your tithes"
"Do more here and don't expect me to pay any attention to you if you don't do what I feel is enough"
"Show up every time the doors are open because I said so"
Ridiculous comments, right?
They're just as generalized as yours... extremely broad brush.
Kutless
04-03-2007, 10:09 AM
But they are not to be gluttons. It is not the pastor's job to "move" the saints: if the saints are listening to what the Holy Ghost is saying to them, they will automatically be moved. If they're not being moved, they're not listening to the Holy Ghost (or what the pastor is preaching is not of God).
The saints need to get off their blessed assurance and study their Bibles at home on their own IN ADDITION TO attending Bible Study where they can be taught by godly men. As for fellowship, certainly it's essential but it is not the emphasis. The purpose of the "five-fold ministry," after all, is to equip the saints so that the saints can do the WORK of serving God.
If a man will not work, he ought not to eat. The BIBLE says that God appointed SIX DAYS for working and ONE DAY for rest. And, NO, it's not God, Family, Church, it's God, Church, Family. Can you imagine what would have happened if Peter had put his family before doing the work Jesus called him to do? If family is first, then why was Peter going all over Israel with Jesus instead of staying home with his family and working his job to support his family?Like ya Chan.. enjoy your posts, but in most situations I will never put the church before my family.
I am heavily involved in outreach, Sun school, etc etc but my family and the running of my home comes before that.
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 10:10 AM
Like ya Chan.. enjoy your posts, but in most situations I will never put the church before my family.
I am heavily involved in outreach, Sun school, etc etc but my family and the running of my home comes before that.
We never put church before our family.
Nahum
04-03-2007, 10:10 AM
This is true, although, looking back over the years it seems it's always - from church to church - the same few that put everything into it.
Sometimes positions are tied up and others don't feel like they have as much a part and so they don't get as involved. That is what I have seen.
What I wish the whole church could see is that anyone in the prayer room is probably the most important entity the church has.
If someone wants to be used and isn't, it IS A LEADERSHIP FAILURE.
I agree with everything you said though.
Rhoni
04-03-2007, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coonskinner http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=62419#post62419)
It's all about me.
Me being understood by leadership.
Me getting what I need.
Me being serviced and coddled and pampered and affirmed and edified.
Getting, receiving, taking
CS,
Even in the workplace it is give and take. You want people to work for you, over time and extra then you make the conditions right for it to happen.
You can't continually beat up saints, discipline them till they can't stand, and the ask them to do such things over and above...
Saints, like Pastors, need affirmation that what they are doing makes a difference and is appreciated.
Is it too difficult to expect mutual appreciation, mutual affirmation? Then it becomes a happy and pleasant thing to sacrifice. We all really want to anyway...
This is true, although, looking back over the years it seems it's always - from church to church - the same few that put everything into it.
Sometimes positions are tied up and others don't feel like they have as much a part and so they don't get as involved. That is what I have seen.
What I wish the whole church could see is that anyone in the prayer room is probably the most important entity the church has.
So True PO!
the church in America is generally selfish.
However, God is soon going to fix that.
I Agree!
Although it isn't just limited to the Church in the USA!
Eliseus
04-03-2007, 10:13 AM
The idea of there being some kind of "Tension" or conflict between "God, church, family" is unbiblical. There is nothing in the Scripture that identifies Christians (converted people, saints) having to deal with this supposed "tension" that modern Christians seem to be dealing with. I can't recall any verses which indicate there was a "problem" in this area among the early Christians. I don't recall there being an "issue" with "juggling God, church, and family responsibilities" in the Bible.
I wonder why?
Perhaps we don't have the religion they had in the Bible...
Question-
"Just how important is the Kingdom of God to us?"
Nahum
04-03-2007, 10:14 AM
Whatever right back atcha! My examples although extreme are very real to me. IN fact my former pastor was very displeased with me for staying home with my sick daughter so that my wife could geet some rest as she was up the night before. You know the pastor that has "treated you well"???????
Lording over people is not the job of a pastor.
That guy sounds like a whack-job. :grampa
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 10:15 AM
If someone wants to be used and isn't, it IS A LEADERSHIP FAILURE.
I agree with everything you said though.
I think it is a leadership failure. There are some people that are willing and need to be developed. It takes time. It's almost like a business. You have to work with it to get it to run properly.
Some people don't handle leadership well. They can't delegate. They want all the control. It makes life easier when you delegate and stay communicated. That is the key.
I think sometimes teachers can get burnt out and all they need is a little meeting to throw ideas around and just talk. It brings a lot of cohesiveness when this is done. If the pastor is doing all the talking at the meeting, it's not as valuable a session, IMO. All members need to feel as though they are working "together" and not "for someone" if you know what I'm saying.
Rhoni
04-03-2007, 10:15 AM
That guy sounds like a whack-job. :grampa
You critisizing Pastors PP? Do you have an issue with leadership?:friend
Just curious, Rhoni
True Ministry is a "Team Effort!"
Nahum
04-03-2007, 10:16 AM
CS,
Even in the workplace it is give and take. You want people to work for you, over time and extra then you make the conditions right for it to happen.
You can't continually beat up saints, discipline them till they can't stand, and the ask them to do such things over and above...
Saints, like Pastors, need affirmation that what they are doing makes a difference and is appreciated.
Is it too difficult to expect mutual appreciation, mutual affirmation? Then it becomes a happy and pleasant thing to sacrifice. We all really want to anyway...
Rhoni, you have a unique ability to bash pastors at every opportunity. Do you realize this? This is what I was referring to earlier. Again, this thread is not about preachers. It is about lazy Apostolics.
Care to comment on that?
Nahum
04-03-2007, 10:18 AM
The idea of there being some kind of "Tension" or conflict between "God, church, family" is unbiblical. There is nothing in the Scripture that identifies Christians (converted people, saints) having to deal with this supposed "tension" that modern Christians seem to be dealing with. I can't recall any verses which indicate there was a "problem" in this area among the early Christians. I don't recall there being an "issue" with "juggling God, church, and family responsibilities" in the Bible.
I wonder why?
Perhaps we don't have the religion they had in the Bible...
POTD!!!!!
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 10:19 AM
True Ministry is a "Team Effort!"
Amen!
Kutless
04-03-2007, 10:21 AM
Rhoni, you have a unique ability to bash pastors at every opportunity. Do you realize this? This is what I was referring to earlier. Again, this thread is not about preachers. It is about lazy Apostolics.
Care to comment on that?Of course any threads started about the "Pastors" are brought to a screaching halt!!
Can the pastor take any blame for these things?
Like ya Chan.. enjoy your posts, but in most situations I will never put the church before my family.
I am heavily involved in outreach, Sun school, etc etc but my family and the running of my home comes before that.
Then you really don't know what the Church is if you think it's outreach, Sunday School, etc. The CHURCH is the body of Christ. WE are Jesus' arms, legs, intestines, etc. and Jesus is the Head. If you are putting your family before THAT, you love your family more than you love Jesus (since you're putting your family before your place in the body of Christ) and, according to Jesus, are not worthy of Him. Even JESUS put His ministry before His earthly family. When His mother and siblings came to talk to Him one time and someone in the crowd told Him, what did He say? He said (paraphrase) "Who is my mother and who are my brothers? They who do the will of God are my mother and sister and brother." Peter was running all over Israel with Jesus instead of being at home with his family.
Kutless
04-03-2007, 10:23 AM
Then you really don't know what the Church is if you think it's outreach, Sunday School, etc. The CHURCH is the body of Christ. WE are Jesus' arms, legs, intestines, etc. and Jesus is the Head. If you are putting your family before THAT, you love your family more than you love Jesus (since you're putting your family before your place in the body of Christ) and, according to Jesus, are not worthy of Him. Even JESUS put His ministry before His earthly family. When His mother and siblings came to talk to Him one time and someone in the crowd told Him, what did He say? He said (paraphrase) "Who is my mother and who are my brothers? They who do the will of God are my mother and sister and brother." Peter was running all over Israel with Jesus instead of being at home with his family.You go boy!!!
Eliseus
04-03-2007, 10:25 AM
As long as the church structures its existence on a business model, there will be this "tension", because most people recognise there is a "tension" between "job and family". The job wants you to do for them, PERIOD. They weasel, whine, threaten, promise and bribe you to do more for less. Many jobs expect you to sacrifice family time for them. It's just the nature of "employment", not necessarily a bad thing. Every employee worth his.her salt understands this, and acts accordingly - one has to learn when to say "No" to the boss. No to excess overtime, No to too much working on the weekends, etc.
But, as long as the church models itself on the business model, with the pastor as CEO/boss man and the saints as human resource material to be directed into accomplishing the CEO's "vision", there will be this "tension" between church and family.
The church will make demands on the time and money and talent of the individual to the expense of the family.
And this ought not to be.
The average run of the mill church today is NOT "family friendly".
Oh, and creating a plethora of "programs for every family member" is NOT the solution.
Churches need to return to what they originally were - A FAMILY. The family of God. God's HOUSEHOLD, not a business or charity organisation dedicated to fulfilling some one man's "visions". God's household is an extended household, composed not merely of "individuals" but of FAMILIES.
As soon as we discover the Biblical truth of "household salvation" we will have come a long way toward solving this unnecessary dichotomy between "church and family".
(Note: "Household salvation" as I use the term is NOT the idea that babies should be baptised, but rather it is the truth that God is in the business of saving and redeeming ENTIRE HOUSEHOLDS. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy household." Many if not most of the early churches described in the Scripture were HOUSEHOLD churches, meaning entire households were converted, forming the nucleus of the local church, growing as new households are added to the body.
We have to get back to a FAMILY-oriented model of the church rather than the business-oriented model.)
Nahum
04-03-2007, 10:26 AM
When I assisted in another assembly, it had snowed really hard one Saturday evening. Most folks called the pastor to say they couldn't make it to church, the roads were just too bad. So he cancelled church.
Sunday morning my phone rang. A group of about 50 young marrieds and their kids had decided they were going to drive the 30 miles to Art Hill in downtown St Louis to go sledding.
I went with them.:happydance
It was too dangerous to have church, but just fine to go sledding.
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 10:26 AM
Then you really don't know what the Church is if you think it's outreach, Sunday School, etc. The CHURCH is the body of Christ. WE are Jesus' arms, legs, intestines, etc. and Jesus is the Head. If you are putting your family before THAT, you love your family more than you love Jesus (since you're putting your family before your place in the body of Christ) and, according to Jesus, are not worthy of Him. Even JESUS put His ministry before His earthly family. When His mother and siblings came to talk to Him one time and someone in the crowd told Him, what did He say? He said (paraphrase) "Who is my mother and who are my brothers? They who do the will of God are my mother and sister and brother." Peter was running all over Israel with Jesus instead of being at home with his family.
Chancellor,
Isn't the church only as strong as the family? Haven't we seen people so involved in church that they neglect their family and don't remain strong enough to stay together.
Or is it just some of these are Martha in the church and not the Mary that cause this?
As long as the church structures its existence on a business model, there will be this "tension", because most people recognise there is a "tension" between "job and family". The job wants you to do for them, PERIOD. They weasel, whine, threaten, promise and bribe you to do more for less. Many jobs expect you to sacrifice family time for them. It's just the nature of "employment", not necessarily a bad thing. Every employee worth his.her salt understands this, and acts accordingly - one has to learn when to say "No" to the boss. No to excess overtime, No to too much working on the weekends, etc.
But, as long as the church models itself on the business model, with the pastor as CEO/boss man and the saints as human resource material to be directed into accomplishing the CEO's "vision", there will be this "tension" between church and family.
The church will make demands on the time and money and talent of the individual to the expense of the family.
And this ought not to be.
The average run of the mill church today is NOT "family friendly".
Oh, and creating a plethora of "programs for every family member" is NOT the solution.
Churches need to return to what they originally were - A FAMILY. The family of God. God's HOUSEHOLD, not a business or charity organisation dedicated to fulfilling some one man's "visions". God's household is an extended household, composed not merely of "individuals" but of FAMILIES.
As soon as we discover the Biblical truth of "household salvation" we will have come a long way toward solving this unnecessary dichotomy between "church and family".
(Note: "Household salvation" as I use the term is NOT the idea that babies should be baptised, but rather it is the truth that God is in the business of saving and redeeming ENTIRE HOUSEHOLDS. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy household." Many if not most of the early churches described in the Scripture were HOUSEHOLD churches, meaning entire households were converted, forming the nucleus of the local church, growing as new households are added to the body.
We have to get back to a FAMILY-oriented model of the church rather than the business-oriented model.)
Well said!
POTD!
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 10:26 AM
When I assisted in another assembly, it had snowed really hard one Saturday evening. Most folks called the pastor to say they couldn't make it to church, the roads were just too bad. So he cancelled church.
Sunday morning my phone rang. A group of about 50 young marrieds and their kids had decided they were going to drive the 30 miles to Art Hill in downtown St Louis to go sledding.
I went with them.:happydance
It was too dangerous to have church, but just fine to go sledding.
:toofunny :toofunny
Coonskinner
04-03-2007, 10:27 AM
CS,
Even in the workplace it is give and take. You want people to work for you, over time and extra then you make the conditions right for it to happen.
You can't continually beat up saints, discipline them till they can't stand, and the ask them to do such things over and above...
Saints, like Pastors, need affirmation that what they are doing makes a difference and is appreciated.
Is it too difficult to expect mutual appreciation, mutual affirmation? Then it becomes a happy and pleasant thing to sacrifice. We all really want to anyway...
Rhoni,
Just out of curiousity, how in the cat hair did you assume from anything I wrote that I:
"Continually beat up saints..."
"Discipline them till they can't stand..."
Don't affirm them
''Don't appreciate them...
Expect them to "work for me..."
You are not just reading between the lines, you are reading way beyond the lines.
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 10:28 AM
As long as the church structures its existence on a business model, there will be this "tension", because most people recognise there is a "tension" between "job and family". The job wants you to do for them, PERIOD. They weasel, whine, threaten, promise and bribe you to do more for less. Many jobs expect you to sacrifice family time for them. It's just the nature of "employment", not necessarily a bad thing. Every employee worth his.her salt understands this, and acts accordingly - one has to learn when to say "No" to the boss. No to excess overtime, No to too much working on the weekends, etc.
But, as long as the church models itself on the business model, with the pastor as CEO/boss man and the saints as human resource material to be directed into accomplishing the CEO's "vision", there will be this "tension" between church and family.
The church will make demands on the time and money and talent of the individual to the expense of the family.
And this ought not to be.
The average run of the mill church today is NOT "family friendly".
Oh, and creating a plethora of "programs for every family member" is NOT the solution.
Churches need to return to what they originally were - A FAMILY. The family of God. God's HOUSEHOLD, not a business or charity organisation dedicated to fulfilling some one man's "visions". God's household is an extended household, composed not merely of "individuals" but of FAMILIES.
As soon as we discover the Biblical truth of "household salvation" we will have come a long way toward solving this unnecessary dichotomy between "church and family".
(Note: "Household salvation" as I use the term is NOT the idea that babies should be baptised, but rather it is the truth that God is in the business of saving and redeeming ENTIRE HOUSEHOLDS. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy household." Many if not most of the early churches described in the Scripture were HOUSEHOLD churches, meaning entire households were converted, forming the nucleus of the local church, growing as new households are added to the body.
We have to get back to a FAMILY-oriented model of the church rather than the business-oriented model.)
Good post.
CS,
Even in the workplace it is give and take. You want people to work for you, over time and extra then you make the conditions right for it to happen.
You can't continually beat up saints, discipline them till they can't stand, and the ask them to do such things over and above...
Saints, like Pastors, need affirmation that what they are doing makes a difference and is appreciated.
Is it too difficult to expect mutual appreciation, mutual affirmation? Then it becomes a happy and pleasant thing to sacrifice. We all really want to anyway...This is worldy wisdom (and, thus, foolishness to God).
It is exactly this kind of wicked self-centeredness that the original poster was talking about and your "profession" is just as wicked because it promotes exactly that kind of self-centeredness in all that psychobabble about "self-esteem" (when the Bible says "esteem others") and meeting your own needs (the Bible tells us to meet the needs of others and to die to ourselves).
As for pastors supposedly beating up the saints constantly, I doubt that is happening all that often. I suspect that what's really going on is that the saints are being a bunch of self-centered, whiny crybabies who are upset because the pastor is trying to get them to die to themselves, take up their crosses and follow Jesus. Maybe if the saints stopped trying to exercise autonomy over themselves instead of obeying those whom GOD has placed to rule over them, maybe if the saints stopped viewing themselves as independent individuals instead of body parts in Christ's body dependent on one another and on Christ, they wouldn't feel like they were being beat up.
tbpew
04-03-2007, 10:30 AM
The idea of there being some kind of "Tension" or conflict between "God, church, family" is unbiblical. There is nothing in the Scripture that identifies Christians (converted people, saints) having to deal with this supposed "tension" that modern Christians seem to be dealing with. I can't recall any verses which indicate there was a "problem" in this area among the early Christians. I don't recall there being an "issue" with "juggling God, church, and family responsibilities" in the Bible.
I wonder why?
Perhaps we don't have the religion they had in the Bible...
I have know way of guessing what the word RELIGION means when you use it in a post but.....
I believe we do not have the DELIVERY network in operation that they had in the bible.
Men have reasserted dominion among individuals where the Spirit purposes to have sole dominion.
Its almost unthinkable for most of us to believe that God is the potter doing the work, the author and finisher of his own house, his own church, his Christ.
Kutless
04-03-2007, 10:32 AM
As long as the church structures its existence on a business model, there will be this "tension", because most people recognise there is a "tension" between "job and family". The job wants you to do for them, PERIOD. They weasel, whine, threaten, promise and bribe you to do more for less. Many jobs expect you to sacrifice family time for them. It's just the nature of "employment", not necessarily a bad thing. Every employee worth his.her salt understands this, and acts accordingly - one has to learn when to say "No" to the boss. No to excess overtime, No to too much working on the weekends, etc.
But, as long as the church models itself on the business model, with the pastor as CEO/boss man and the saints as human resource material to be directed into accomplishing the CEO's "vision", there will be this "tension" between church and family.
The church will make demands on the time and money and talent of the individual to the expense of the family.
And this ought not to be.
The average run of the mill church today is NOT "family friendly".
Oh, and creating a plethora of "programs for every family member" is NOT the solution.
Churches need to return to what they originally were - A FAMILY. The family of God. God's HOUSEHOLD, not a business or charity organisation dedicated to fulfilling some one man's "visions". God's household is an extended household, composed not merely of "individuals" but of FAMILIES.
As soon as we discover the Biblical truth of "household salvation" we will have come a long way toward solving this unnecessary dichotomy between "church and family".
(Note: "Household salvation" as I use the term is NOT the idea that babies should be baptised, but rather it is the truth that God is in the business of saving and redeeming ENTIRE HOUSEHOLDS. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy household." Many if not most of the early churches described in the Scripture were HOUSEHOLD churches, meaning entire households were converted, forming the nucleus of the local church, growing as new households are added to the body.
We have to get back to a FAMILY-oriented model of the church rather than the business-oriented model.)Great words here!! Fantastic post!
I second the POTD
Chancellor,
Isn't the church only as strong as the family? Haven't we seen people so involved in church that they neglect their family and don't remain strong enough to stay together.
Or is it just some of these are Martha in the church and not the Mary that cause this?Go back and read my post and see how I defined the Church. It isn't about a building or ministries or activities, it's about being body parts in Christ's body. As for the family, Jesus said that those who love their families more than they love Him are not worthy of Him and He said that if those who put their hand to the plow look back (toward the house), they are not worthy of Him.
Interestingly, one of the qualifications of a deacon (a SERVANT of the Church - deacon is NOT a leadership position and those churches that have so-called "deacon boards" exercising authority in the Church are not of God because that is not God's created order for the Church), one of the qualifications of a deacon (and a bishop or overseeing elder, aka pastor) is that he rules his household well.
Nahum
04-03-2007, 10:36 AM
Of course any threads started about the "Pastors" are brought to a screaching halt!!
I love you man.
Yes, I agree they should be brought to a screeching halt because pastors should get their way about everything, always, all of the time. :aaa
Eliseus
04-03-2007, 10:37 AM
On another level, I think the "welfare mentality" among apostolics (it pervades most of modern culture, by the way) is due in large part to the kind of preaching people first hear.
Evangelism has largely become a sales pitch for Jesus. "Buy my Jesus, this product is AMAZING, it will make you feel better and look better..." We sing them songs about how everything thing is just peachy keen since Jesus came into our heart...
We do NOT preach about counting the cost, about God's claims upon the soul of men, about human responsibility to "fear God and keep His commandments", and about the penalty of willful rejection of God's offer of pardon and amnesty for criminals (sinners).
We generally pull a "bait and switch", to be honest. We do not tell them they will become outcasts from society (largely because we ourselves are too cozy with society to begin with). We do not tell them they may lose their families over the gospel, we do not tell them they must "forsake all, deny themselves, take up their execution stake, and follow Jesus into DEATH TO SELF."
No, we tell them as long as they tithe why they will get money coming in, as long as they stay faithful to church their families will be wonderful and balanced, as long as they keep the pew warm and the collection plate full then all will be well (never mind the statistics which show all is anything BUT well...)
We preach a gospel of selfishness, and should not be surprised when we produce selfish "saints".
But as I said before, I believe God is going to relieve us of the burden of "selfishness" by and by, at least here in America...
...And I believe it will be sooner than later...
Nahum
04-03-2007, 10:39 AM
On another level, I think the "welfare mentality" among apostolics (it pervades most of modern culture, by the way) is due in large part to the kind of preaching people first hear.
Evangelism has largely become a sales pitch for Jesus. "Buy my Jesus, this product is AMAZING, it will make you feel better and look better..." We sing them songs about how everything thing is just peachy keen since Jesus came into our heart...
We do NOT preach about counting the cost, about God's claims upon the soul of men, about human responsibility to "fear God and keep His commandments", and about the penalty of willful rejection of God's offer of pardon and amnesty for criminals (sinners).
We generally pull a "bait and switch", to be honest. We do not tell them they will become outcasts from society (largely because we ourselves are too cozy with society to begin with). We do not tell them they may lose their families over the gospel, we do not tell them they must "forsake all, deny themselves, take up their execution stake, and follow Jesus into DEATH TO SELF."
No, we tell them as long as they tithe why they will get money coming in, as long as they stay faithful to church their families will be wonderful and balanced, as long as they keep the pew warm and the collection plate full then all will be well (never mind the statistics which show all is anything BUT well...)
We preach a gospel of selfishness, and should not be surprised when we produce selfish "saints".
But as I said before, I believe God is going to relieve us of the burden of "selfishness" by and by, at least here in America...
...And I believe it will be sooner than later...
Seriously, God revealed this to me a couple of months ago. He has been beating me about the head and shoulders with the thought you so eloquently posted.
You are on FIRE today Friend. Don't stop.
Eliseus
04-03-2007, 10:44 AM
I have know way of guessing what the word RELIGION means when you use it in a post but.....
I believe we do not have the DELIVERY network in operation that they had in the bible.
Men have reasserted dominion among individuals where the Spirit purposes to have sole dominion.
Its almost unthinkable for most of us to believe that God is the potter doing the work, the author and finisher of his own house, his own church, his Christ.
If men assert dominion among individuals when the Spirit is supposed to have sole dominion, then such men do not have the religion of the Bible.
"That Wicked One... the Son of Perdition... who sitteth in the TEMPLE OF GOD, showing himself that he is God..."
The church is the temple of God. Who then sits in the church of God in God's place? The "man of sin, the son of perdition". The Son of Perdition is a title given to Judas, who BETRAYED the Lord... Paul said that those who partake of the Lord's Supper to the detriment of their brethren are "guilty of the Lord's body and blood" because they do not "discern the body" (which, WE are the body).
So then, whenever anyone in the church attempts to usurp God's authority and dominion over others, or even over themself, they fulfill the role and spirit of the son of perdition, Judas, the betrayer of our Lord.
Just some thoughts.
Kutless
04-03-2007, 10:45 AM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.Back to the front.. Pastor Poster, I do not advocate for church hopping but sometimes there is no choice. I do think the pastor should desire to keep it somewhat interesting.
Dead, boring and uneventful are not things I want to be a part of.
I wonder how many churches are out there that have gone to one service Sun. Seems to be a trend in these here parts.
On another level, I think the "welfare mentality" among apostolics (it pervades most of modern culture, by the way) is due in large part to the kind of preaching people first hear.
Evangelism has largely become a sales pitch for Jesus. "Buy my Jesus, this product is AMAZING, it will make you feel better and look better..." We sing them songs about how everything thing is just peachy keen since Jesus came into our heart...
We do NOT preach about counting the cost, about God's claims upon the soul of men, about human responsibility to "fear God and keep His commandments", and about the penalty of willful rejection of God's offer of pardon and amnesty for criminals (sinners).
We generally pull a "bait and switch", to be honest. We do not tell them they will become outcasts from society (largely because we ourselves are too cozy with society to begin with). We do not tell them they may lose their families over the gospel, we do not tell them they must "forsake all, deny themselves, take up their execution stake, and follow Jesus into DEATH TO SELF."
No, we tell them as long as they tithe why they will get money coming in, as long as they stay faithful to church their families will be wonderful and balanced, as long as they keep the pew warm and the collection plate full then all will be well (never mind the statistics which show all is anything BUT well...)
We preach a gospel of selfishness, and should not be surprised when we produce selfish "saints".
But as I said before, I believe God is going to relieve us of the burden of "selfishness" by and by, at least here in America...
...And I believe it will be sooner than later...
Wow. What can I say but Amen!
Pragmatist
04-03-2007, 10:46 AM
1. Those who like smaller churches because:
a. they like the family feeling, close associations, and enmeshment of others into their family systems.
b. they like to get involved in areas of ministry that big churches won't allow them to be involved in because they have those more qualified.
c. they like to know the Pastor and his family on an intimate level.
d. they need someone to tell them what to do and how to do it
e. this is all they know.
2. Those who like larger churches because:
a. They value autonomy, and don't want to know other people's business, and don't want other people knowing their business.
b. They only want to be involved in ministry they are qualified for and some don't want a leadership or ministry position at all.
c. The church is respite from the world, not part of their daily social or work circle.
d. Those with children want only qualified and those with legal clearance to work with their children and all that entails: security so the children are supervised by those not known as pedophiles, or predators; those who do not let just anyone pick up their children but want themselves only to have access to picking up their children; and those qualified to teach to make sure their children are getting the best possible spiritual education and guidance.
e. Programs that are diverse and meet the needs of the community: Music ministries, children's ministries, youth ministries, single's ministries, Divorce Recovery, Adult electives for Bible Classes taught by qualified teachers, counseling, Spanish ministries, Deaf ministries, ect...
I choose to go to a small church rather than the mega church, but not for the reasons you state (although, I do like the fact that the pastor at the small church knows my name;) )
There is no enmeshment into our family system. We are educated and independent.
I'm not involved in leadership anyway, due to my not believing the same way about standards. (My decision)
I don't need someone to tell me what to do and my pastor preaches that we need to learn to hear from God for ourselves.
I've gone to the mega church and didn't care for it.
But the main reason, we love our church is not the size, it's the wisdom and dedication of our pastor.
Pragmatist
04-03-2007, 10:51 AM
On another level, I think the "welfare mentality" among apostolics (it pervades most of modern culture, by the way) is due in large part to the kind of preaching people first hear.
Evangelism has largely become a sales pitch for Jesus. "Buy my Jesus, this product is AMAZING, it will make you feel better and look better..." We sing them songs about how everything thing is just peachy keen since Jesus came into our heart...
We do NOT preach about counting the cost, about God's claims upon the soul of men, about human responsibility to "fear God and keep His commandments", and about the penalty of willful rejection of God's offer of pardon and amnesty for criminals (sinners).
We generally pull a "bait and switch", to be honest. We do not tell them they will become outcasts from society (largely because we ourselves are too cozy with society to begin with). We do not tell them they may lose their families over the gospel, we do not tell them they must "forsake all, deny themselves, take up their execution stake, and follow Jesus into DEATH TO SELF."
No, we tell them as long as they tithe why they will get money coming in, as long as they stay faithful to church their families will be wonderful and balanced, as long as they keep the pew warm and the collection plate full then all will be well (never mind the statistics which show all is anything BUT well...)
We preach a gospel of selfishness, and should not be surprised when we produce selfish "saints".
But as I said before, I believe God is going to relieve us of the burden of "selfishness" by and by, at least here in America...
...And I believe it will be sooner than later...
Great post.
Another reason we love our church and pastor is because he tells it like it is.
At the large church we attended, the message often was, " all you need to do is shout and everything will be okay."
Our pastor teaches that you are going to have trials and tests; that is how you grow.
Kutless
04-03-2007, 11:03 AM
do all preachers get grouchy during vacation season?
Rhoni
04-03-2007, 11:16 AM
Rhoni, you have a unique ability to bash pastors at every opportunity. Do you realize this? This is what I was referring to earlier. Again, this thread is not about preachers. It is about lazy Apostolics.
Care to comment on that?
You see...you just judged my post to be about me bashing preachers...I did not bash preachers at all...I am talking about Saints respecting Pastors and Pastors respecting the saints.
You are saying that those who prefer mega churches are somehow "LAZY APOSTOLICS". I am not saying there are not 'lazy Apostolics, [Pastors as well as saints] but I am saying that many times what you consider being lazy is not laziness at all, but rather a feeling that one would rather/prefer to work in the area of one's calling or expertise than in all areas of church where there is a hole/need for a worker.
How does this tie into what I stated and you quoted? Well, I think that if Ministry was more sensitve to the callings, the areas of passion for their saints and try to place them or allow them to work in these areas then God would provide workers in the missing areas. It is a matter of trust, respect,a nd affirmation on both sides.
There have been examples by others, as well as by myself or those who take advantage of their positions, but there are just as many - if not more positive examples of Good Leadership and Involved saints. I still think the problem is one of "submission". The Bible tells us to submit to one another...this includes respecting one another, loving one another, thinking the best in one another, and affirming one another.
Many times what one preceives as "Laziness" might be other things, i.e., hurt, burn-out, lack of funding, lack of appreciation, lack of knowing the areas the person has a pasion for, lack of communication.
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni
04-03-2007, 11:18 AM
True Ministry is a "Team Effort!"
ABSOLUTELY!:tiphat There are many arms of the ministry and they shoudl work together and not against each other!
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni
04-03-2007, 11:21 AM
Rhoni,
Just out of curiousity, how in the cat hair did you assume from anything I wrote that I:
"Continually beat up saints..."
"Discipline them till they can't stand..."
Don't affirm them
''Don't appreciate them...
Expect them to "work for me..."
You are not just reading between the lines, you are reading way beyond the lines.
CS,
You are taking it personally...I was not assuming anything about you...I was sticking to what I considered the theme of the thread...why APOSTOLICS are sometimes considered 'lazy'. It isn't meant in any way to reflect on you sir. I know nothing of your leadership abilities. But I have heard you preach and you did a fine job!:tiphat
I think that maybe some misunderstandings on both our parts, about each other is that we personalize the posts to apply to ourselves when it is more a macro approach to the topic. I apologize if you thought I was targeting you...this is not so.
Respectfully, Rhoni
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 11:26 AM
Go back and read my post and see how I defined the Church. It isn't about a building or ministries or activities, it's about being body parts in Christ's body. As for the family, Jesus said that those who love their families more than they love Him are not worthy of Him and He said that if those who put their hand to the plow look back (toward the house), they are not worthy of Him.
Interestingly, one of the qualifications of a deacon (a SERVANT of the Church - deacon is NOT a leadership position and those churches that have so-called "deacon boards" exercising authority in the Church are not of God because that is not God's created order for the Church), one of the qualifications of a deacon (and a bishop or overseeing elder, aka pastor) is that he rules his household well.
I believe Jesus is saying that if you love your family more - preoccupy your time with the family more - not looking to the Gospel - is the error.
As you said the qualifications of a deacon are to rule his household well. That means he isn't neglecting them in his service.
Some people take the admonition of Jesus in the way of "neglect" and that's what I was getting at. You can't put him first and neglect the other part.
Rhoni
04-03-2007, 11:26 AM
I choose to go to a small church rather than the mega church, but not for the reasons you state (although, I do like the fact that the pastor at the small church knows my name;) )
There is no enmeshment into our family system. We are educated and independent.
I'm not involved in leadership anyway, due to my not believing the same way about standards. (My decision)
I don't need someone to tell me what to do and my pastor preaches that we need to learn to hear from God for ourselves.
I've gone to the mega church and didn't care for it.
But the main reason, we love our church is not the size, it's the wisdom and dedication of our pastor.
Dear Pragmatist,
If you believe your Pastor to have so much wisdom and dedication - why would you not submit to his dress standard policy to be used int he church? Help me to understand this?
I loved my Pastor and his wife in Florida and did everything I could do to please them...and it included abiding by the platform standard, and beyond because I TRUSTED their integrity, wisdom, and dedication to the cause there in that community...I submitted willingly. So...I don't understand your view or post.
Blessings, Rhoni
I believe Jesus is saying that if you love your family more - preoccupy your time with the family more - not looking to the Gospel - is the error.And putting your family before what God has called you to do.
As you said the qualifications of a deacon are to rule his household well. That means he isn't neglecting them in his service.But neither is he putting his family above his serving God and fulfilling the place God has put him in Christ's body.
Some people take the admonition of Jesus in the way of "neglect" and that's what I was getting at. You can't put him first and neglect the other part.This is a doctrine of devils and is as vile as the ungodly notion of being "so heavenly minded that one is of no earthly good"! If you are putting Jesus first and, thus, are doing what He commands, it is impossible for you to neglect those things that are not to be neglected.
Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 11:37 AM
And putting your family before what God has called you to do.
I believe if he calls you. He has called the whole unit for His purpose.
But neither is he putting his family above his serving God and fulfilling the place God has put him in Christ's body.
Right. Balance.
This is a doctrine of devils and is as vile as the ungodly notion of being "so heavenly minded that one is of no earthly good"! If you are putting Jesus first and, thus, are doing what He commands, it is impossible for you to neglect those things that are not to be neglected.
Right, again, although some take it too far - that was my point. I think a better way to explain that is someone reading - "If your eye offend you, pluck it out." An illustration being made without actually asking you do to that.
Some take the "If you love your family more" and spend all kinds of time not balancing the other scriptures.
That's what I am trying to say.
Many times what one preceives as "Laziness" might be other things, i.e., hurt, burn-out, lack of funding, lack of appreciation, lack of knowing the areas the person has a pasion for, lack of communication.
Absolutely ... "laziness" is an easy label .... sometimes we need to delve deeper
Nahum
04-03-2007, 01:06 PM
Absolutely ... "laziness" is an easy label .... sometimes we need to delve deeper
What?
Worldliness?
Covetousness?
Selfishness?
I believe if he calls you. He has called the whole unit for His purpose.But this does not mean God calls the man's family to the man's ministry.
Right. Balance.As long as Christ and your place in His body come first.
Right, again, although some take it too far - that was my point. I think a better way to explain that is someone reading - "If your eye offend you, pluck it out." An illustration being made without actually asking you do to that.Not that an eye is physically capable of causing you to sin (which is what made the statement metaphoric of anything in your life that causes you to sin). Anything that keeps us from serving God with our whole being, and keeps us from putting Him above all else, needs to be plucked out, amputated, etc.
Some take the "If you love your family more" and spend all kinds of time not balancing the other scriptures.Like the one where Paul said that those who marry would be more concerned with how to please their spouse than with how to please God?
Michlow
04-03-2007, 01:21 PM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
Wow, in my world its always my preacher asking for a handout....
1. You should come to church more Sis. Michelle....
2. You should pay your tithes Sis. Michelle....
3. You should get involved Sis. Michelle....
:ignore :ignore :ignore
Nahum
04-03-2007, 01:24 PM
Wow, in my world its always my preacher asking for a handout....
1. You should come to church more Sis. Michelle....
2. You should pay your tithes Sis. Michelle....
3. You should get involved Sis. Michelle....
:ignore :ignore :ignore
Those things should be done in accordance with God's word. If someone can't handle THOSE statements I doubt they are committed in any other area of Christianity.
Handouts? :slaphappy
That's called "your reasonable service".
I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.We absolutely do not need anymore thenthitive preachers! If people want thenthitive preachers, they should go to the gay Pentecostal churches (or listen to many of today's so-called "worship leaders" with their soft, effeminate voices).
Nahum
04-03-2007, 01:29 PM
We absolutely do not need anymore thenthitive preachers! If people want thenthitive preachers, they should go to the gay Pentecostal churches (or listen to many of today's so-called "worship leaders" with their soft, effeminate voices).
PREACH!!!!!!
Michlow
04-03-2007, 01:32 PM
Those things should be done in accordance with God's word. If someone can't handle THOSE statements I doubt they are committed in any other area of Christianity.
Handouts? :slaphappy
That's called "your reasonable service".
You can't see it right now....but I am blowing raspberries at the computer screen while giving your avatar contemptuous looks. :crazy
Nahum
04-03-2007, 01:33 PM
You can't see it right now....but I am blowing raspberries at the computer screen while giving your avatar contemptuous looks.
LOL!!! Is that all you got Mich? :neener
C'mon, C'mon.... Hit me with your best shot!
Michlow
04-03-2007, 01:37 PM
LOL!!! Is that all you got Mich? :neener
C'mon, C'mon.... Hit me with your best shot!
Well, I could add that I don't think that tithing is New testament, and I don't agree with the current church model and that I think if we ditched all the tedious programs and busywork there wouldn't be such a need for people to be "involved".
But then people just set out to prove how wrong I am, and after 5 hours of trying to preach me straight, I get a little tired. So lets just skip that part, and we can pretend that you won. :winkgrin
Pragmatist
04-03-2007, 06:07 PM
Dear Pragmatist,
If you believe your Pastor to have so much wisdom and dedication - why would you not submit to his dress standard policy to be used int he church? Help me to understand this?
I loved my Pastor and his wife in Florida and did everything I could do to please them...and it included abiding by the platform standard, and beyond because I TRUSTED their integrity, wisdom, and dedication to the cause there in that community...I submitted willingly. So...I don't understand your view or post.
Blessings, Rhoni
My point was I prefer a small church but not for the negative reasons you gave.
Good for you for submitting to standards. If I felt God wanted me to, I would.
Nahum
04-04-2007, 09:17 AM
Well, I could add that I don't think that tithing is New testament, and I don't agree with the current church model and that I think if we ditched all the tedious programs and busywork there wouldn't be such a need for people to be "involved".
But then people just set out to prove how wrong I am, and after 5 hours of trying to preach me straight, I get a little tired. So lets just skip that part, and we can pretend that you won. :winkgrin
Sounds like you have an intense dislike for work.
Whole Hearted
04-04-2007, 09:37 AM
Whole Hearted,
This is a true command in the NT but I also know that you know that the Kingdom is SOOOO much more than just the assembling of ourselves together. Unfortunately I know folks that NEVER miss an assembling that are only involved in the Kingdom on those days.
I believe that EVERYTHING we do should be measured in its value to or ability to bless The Kingdom of God! If an action cannot in any way bless the Kingdom of God then it is probably not the will of God but it is the will of man!
Just the way I live my life.
True
Is this your response to underachieving as a minister of the gospel?
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
Whole Hearted
04-04-2007, 09:42 AM
I love my church, my pastor, etc. I'm involved whole hearted. I believe its of utmost importance.
But if you think for a second one should walk away from a sick kid or cancel much needed family devotion. Or neglect family time?????
No one ever said anything about leaving a sick kid and family devotion should be done on other nights besides church.
Joelel
04-04-2007, 09:44 AM
Welfare is alive in Pentecost today.
1. Feed me preacher, move me preacher, or I'll go to the megachurch down the street.
2. Provide entertainment for my kids preacher, but not BIBLE STUDY for them. They are not mature enough to Get It yet. Keep it simple and fun, okay?
3. Uhmm, could you reduce the amount of services we have preacher? I am awfully busy out here. Don't you even care about my life and my things? I need you to be more SENSITIVE preacher.
Well let's see,If the preachers that this was being said to would get them saved they woun't be saying things like that.Preach the truth and run them off or let them run for no reason.Either way they run.
Michlow
04-04-2007, 09:44 AM
Sounds like you have an intense dislike for work.
:igotit
Oh yeah? Well I'm Rubber and You're Glue!
Nahum
04-04-2007, 09:45 AM
Is this your response to underachieving as a minister of the gospel?
Yes. I am more than an underchiever.
Are you sure I really minister the gospel?
I mean I'm a UPC preacher and all. Aren't we all out to steal your money, preach legalism, and ask you to be faithful to church? You call that the gospel?
So tell me tv, when do you buy your groceries? First of the month?
Joelel
04-04-2007, 09:49 AM
Are you kidding? No one would show up. We're too busy.
Plus, our favorite shows may be on.
Yes and you might be fishing
Nahum
04-04-2007, 09:51 AM
Yes and you might be fishing
Yep.
I also like fantasy baseball, long walks in the country, softball, a good movie every now and then, and kissing my sweetie.
But none of that interferes with my committment to God and His body.
Joelel
04-04-2007, 09:53 AM
4. Oh, by the way preacher, I won't be here for the next two weeks. I'm going out of town with some friends. The rest of my family will be here though.
But I'll send my tithes so i can still sing in the choir when i get back so you don't think i backslid.Even though tithes aren't scripture in the new testement.
Nahum
04-04-2007, 09:55 AM
But I'll send my tithes so i can still sing in the choir when i get back so you don't think i backslid.Even though tithes aren't scripture in the new testement.
Too late.
Giving your tithe is the least of your worries, maam.
I don't catch the connection between my grocery buying habits and your bellyaching because you can't develop strong Christians. I never insinuated you fleece the flock and hound over them with a stick. I've found most preachers tend to blame the congregation for their underacheivement. That isn't always the case. If you believe that changing methodology is equivelent to changing the message than you need to study the ministry of Jesus, and the ministry of Paul. They were two of the best in adapting their message to the environment. Paul went as far as quoting pagan literature in his epistles and in a sermon, but the message was the same. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. If you don't want to change methodolgies, don't bellyache when people go elsewhere.
Yes. I am more than an underchiever.
Are you sure I really minister the gospel?
I mean I'm a UPC preacher and all. Aren't we all out to steal your money, preach legalism, and ask you to be faithful to church? You call that the gospel?
So tell me tv, when do you buy your groceries? First of the month?
Whole Hearted
04-04-2007, 09:58 AM
When I assisted in another assembly, it had snowed really hard one Saturday evening. Most folks called the pastor to say they couldn't make it to church, the roads were just too bad. So he cancelled church.
Sunday morning my phone rang. A group of about 50 young marrieds and their kids had decided they were going to drive the 30 miles to Art Hill in downtown St Louis to go sledding.
I went with them.:happydance
It was too dangerous to have church, but just fine to go sledding.
Just shows the mentality of many so call saints.
Joelel
04-04-2007, 09:59 AM
Yep.
I also like fantasy baseball, long walks in the country, softball, a good movie every now and then, and kissing my sweetie.
But none of that interferes with my committment to God and His body.
Yelp,you do it when your preaching ? .
Nahum
04-04-2007, 10:01 AM
I don't catch the connection between my grocery buying habits and your bellyaching because you can't develop strong Christians. I never insinuated you fleece the flock and hound over them with a stick. I've found most preachers tend to blame the congregation for their underacheivement. That isn't always the case. If you believe that changing methodology is equivelent to changing the message than you need to study the ministry of Jesus, and the ministry of Paul. They were two of the best in adapting their message to the environment. Paul went as far as quoting pagan literature in his epistles and in a sermon, but the message was the same. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. If you don't want to change methodolgies, don't bellyache when people go elsewhere.
The "bellyaching" wasn't directed toward my church. It was directed to welfare mentality posters on this board. Did I hit a nerve?
Save your lecture. I only take church growth advice from people who have "been there". Not some wet behind the ears preacher bashing wannabe.
Nahum
04-04-2007, 10:02 AM
Yelp,you do it when your preaching ? .
Are you a boy or a girl?
Whole Hearted
04-04-2007, 10:05 AM
Back to the front.. Pastor Poster, I do not advocate for church hopping but sometimes there is no choice. I do think the pastor should desire to keep it somewhat interesting.
Those who are after the spirit will mind the things of the spirit, but those that are after the flesh will mind the things of the flesh...
[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"]If spiritual things are no longer interesting maybe you are carnal.and unevDead, boring entful are not things I want to be a part of.
If church is dead why don't you get in the prayer room and pray and worship until it breaks?
If church is dead why don't you get in the prayer room and pray and worship until it breacks/
Now that's a thought.:tiphat
Joelel
04-04-2007, 10:07 AM
The "bellyaching" wasn't directed toward my church. It was directed to welfare mentality posters on this board. Did I hit a nerve?
Save your lecture. I only take church growth advice from people who have "been there". Not some wet behind the ears preacher bashing wannabe.
Now statements like that is why I left the so called pentecostal apostolic church years ago.Not interested in that kind of love.
I've doubled youth groups sizes in three months, children''s groups in six months... not only in attendance but with Acts 2:38 salvation... In one year 80 people got the Holy Ghost. Had record breaking attendance when in charge of attendance drives... And I'm not even a pastor. I have been blessed that my pastors have vision not 20/20 hindsight.
The people who left our church have gone to smaller "traditional" pentecostal churches. That and a few of them were prayed out of the church. That's another story...
The "bellyaching" wasn't directed toward my church. It was directed to welfare mentality posters on this board. Did I hit a nerve?
Save your lecture. I only take church growth advice from people who have "been there". Not some wet behind the ears preacher bashing wannabe.
Don't mind him.. I pushed the wrong buttons. lol He means well.
Now statements like that is why I left the so called pentecostal apostolic church years ago.Not interested in that kind of love.
Joelel
04-04-2007, 10:09 AM
Are you a boy or a girl?
What's the differance to ya ?
Whole Hearted
04-04-2007, 10:10 AM
Those things should be done in accordance with God's word. If someone can't handle THOSE statements I doubt they are committed in any other area of Christianity.
Handouts? :slaphappy
That's called "your reasonable service".
I can't believe it PP and I are on the same page with this one.
Handouts indeed, what an insult.
The church will never go higher than the pastor's vision. It's got to come from the top down.
If church is dead why don't you get in the prayer room and pray and worship until it breacks/
Nahum
04-04-2007, 10:13 AM
The church will never go higher than the pastor's vision. It's got to come from the top down.
Are you saying the pastor has a role to play? OMG I can't believe it!
And are you implying that the pastor is the "top"?
Wouldn't that mean he has some sort of authority?
I guess he only has authority when we need someone to blame, hmmmmm?
No I'm saying the church can go no higher than the pastor vision. That is diferent than blaming the congregation because of the lack of ability to get them to buy into the vision.
Are you saying the pastor has a role to play? OMG I can't believe it!
And are you implying that the pastor is the "top"?
Wouldn't that mean he has some sort of authority?
I guess he only has authority when we need someone to blame, hmmmmm?
If men assert dominion among individuals when the Spirit is supposed to have sole dominion, then such men do not have the religion of the Bible.
"That Wicked One... the Son of Perdition... who sitteth in the TEMPLE OF GOD, showing himself that he is God..."
The church is the temple of God. Who then sits in the church of God in God's place? The "man of sin, the son of perdition". The Son of Perdition is a title given to Judas, who BETRAYED the Lord... Paul said that those who partake of the Lord's Supper to the detriment of their brethren are "guilty of the Lord's body and blood" because they do not "discern the body" (which, WE are the body).
So then, whenever anyone in the church attempts to usurp God's authority and dominion over others, or even over themself, they fulfill the role and spirit of the son of perdition, Judas, the betrayer of our Lord.
Just some thoughts.
Wow!
If this is truth, then the Judgement is going to be shocking!
Nina
Nahum
07-02-2008, 02:21 PM
Question:
Does the church exist to support individuals?
Or do individuals exist to support the church?
StillStanding
07-02-2008, 02:25 PM
Question:
Does the church exist to support individuals?
Or do individuals exist to support the church?
Or in other words:
Is the church a hospital or a kingdom?
Nahum
07-02-2008, 02:31 PM
Or in other words:
Is the church a hospital or a kingdom?
Exactly.
Earlier today, I had a conversation with my best friend about this.
I do not believe saints are to be mindless drones, only about the business of the local church. I do not believe the local church comes first. I do believe the local assembly should exist to empower individual Christians to higher service for Jesus.
When these priorities are in order, the local church should be healthy, well attended and strong.
StillStanding
07-02-2008, 02:48 PM
Exactly.
Earlier today, I had a conversation with my best friend about this.
I do not believe saints are to be mindless drones, only about the business of the local church. I do not believe the local church comes first. I do believe the local assembly should exist to empower individual Christians to higher service for Jesus.
When these priorities are in order, the local church should be healthy, well attended and strong.
You, my friend, are enlightened! :D
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