17 Kids and Counting

[Carpenter]

I have been away for a while, and so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this TV Show. It is about a family with 17 kids, natural born between one man and one woman (pregnant with number 18) and they look EXACRY Like Apostolics.

I believe they do church in the home, no TV, and all the other stuff, but ironically they have their own little real-life TV show.

Does anyone know anything about this family and what they believe. Seeing their every day lives, they could be Apostolic, except for the most part everyone is always happy and smiling...

http://tlc.discovery.com/tv/17-kids-and-counting/duggar-family.html

[dizzyde]

I have been away for a while, and so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this TV Show. It is about a family with 17 kids, natural born between one man and one woman (pregnant with number 18) and they look EXACRY Like Apostolics.

I believe they do church in the home, no TV, and all the other stuff, but ironically they have their own little real-life TV show.

Does anyone know anything about this family and what they believe. Seeing their every day lives, they could be Apostolic, except for the most part everyone is always happy and smiling...http://tlc.discovery.com/tv/17-kids-and-counting/duggar-family.html

Well, yeah, but so were the Stepford wives...


Anyhow, I have friends that move in the same (religious) circles as they do, they are of the "house church" movement. They have a lot of similar beliefs as far as "standards" go, but I think the theology is very different.

Actually, the group that my friends are in live a VERY separated lifestyle, much more than most UC apostolics, with a few variations. They do believe in cutting the hair (trimming), and simple jewelery, but all of them home school and keep their children completely away from any outside influences.

Most believe in the "courtship" method of teenagers dating, it is a lot like arranged marriages. They like to have their own businesses, working for other people or companies is not common.

It is a very odd group from the outside looking in, but I do know that my friends are some of the most godly people that I know. It also has given me greater perspective on how the rest of the world sees traditional Apostolics.

[HeavenlyOne]

They aren't Pentecostal. One of the girls said once that people often ask if they are, and indicated that they aren't.

But hey, so what? They are doing something right.

If I knew having more kids meant having peace in my house, I wouldn't have stopped at two!!

[Carpenter]

Well, yeah, but so were the Stepford wives...


Anyhow, I have friends that move in the same (religious) circles as they do, they are of the "house church" movement. They have a lot of similar beliefs as far as "standards" go, but I think the theology is very different.

Actually, the group that my friends are in live a VERY separated lifestyle, much more than most UC apostolics, with a few variations. They do believe in cutting the hair (trimming), and simple jewelery, but all of them home school and keep their children completely away from any outside influences.

Most believe in the "courtship" method of teenagers dating, it is a lot like arranged marriages. They like to have their own businesses, working for other people or companies is not common.

It is a very odd group from the outside looking in, but I do know that my friends are some of the most godly people that I know. It also has given me greater perspective on how the rest of the world sees traditional Apostolics.

What is the difference in their doctrine?

[Blsdbeyondmsure]

What is the difference in their doctrine?

I think in one of the first documentaries they mentioned being fundamental baptists in belief. Not exactly sure what that is. I do know in the area I grew up there was an extremely large baptist church (20,000 members) that had a similar holiness standard. They wore skirts, but could wear moderate makeup, trim their hair, and wear minimal jewelry. The men had extremely short hair, no facial hair, and no shorts.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Well you guys know there are Apostolics who house church don't you ?
http://apostolicsathome.com

[TJJJ]

House church? Sounds like home missions to me! Been there done that.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I don't know these folks but I believe they are a house church.
http://www.lostsheepministry.com/oshkoshhousechurch.html

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=2075

[Sherri]

I think in one of the first documentaries they mentioned being fundamental baptists in belief. Not exactly sure what that is. I do know in the area I grew up there was an extremely large baptist church (20,000 members) that had a similar holiness standard. They wore skirts, but could wear moderate makeup, trim their hair, and wear minimal jewelry. The men had extremely short hair, no facial hair, and no shorts.We have "Bible Baptists" in this area and they are extremely strict - moreso than a lot of Pentecostal churches. They also are VERY evangelistic, even to the point of knocking doors and trying to tell you that you're not saved if you don't hold to Eternal Security. They also put their little kids in the parking lots of stores to hand out tracts.

[joyful]

What is the difference in their doctrine?

In a CBS article I read, they said they were very conservative baptists.

[RandyWayne]

As I have said before, there is something about this family that creeps me out. Something that is just not "right".
I almost feel like Mrs Duggers "mask" will fall off one of these episodes revealing her robotic underside and it will be up to Col Steve Austin to battle her on the desert hillside.

[MrsMcD]

I wonder how much the family gets paid to do the tv show. I think that many children is ridiculous.

[ILG]

We have "Bible Baptists" in this area and they are extremely strict - moreso than a lot of Pentecostal churches. They also are VERY evangelistic, even to the point of knocking doors and trying to tell you that you're not saved if you don't hold to Eternal Security. They also put their little kids in the parking lots of stores to hand out tracts.

Anybody see "Jesus Camp"? SOunds like that.

[ILG]

What I think is wied is when asked about more children the Dad always says he leaves it up to his wife. So, apparently it's not a belief??

[Timmy]

Sooner or later, they're gonna hafta reuse a "J" name. There are only so many, ya know?

[ILG]

Sooner or later, they're gonna hafta reuse a "J" name. There are only so many, ya know?

Maybe they will resort to jingle or jedidiah or jesus. :)

I knew a family who had 10 kids. Shortly after their last one was born, the Dad had a stroke and almost died. He didn't but couldn't do anything. The family had to take care of him. It is a great family, great kids. Very tragic.

[Timmy]

Maybe they will resort to jingle or jedidiah or jesus. :)

I knew a family who had 10 kids. Shortly after their last one was born, the Dad had a stroke and almost died. He didn't but couldn't do anything. The family had to take care of him. It is a great family, great kids. Very tragic.

Yeah, see? They already have a Jedidiah!

[ILG]

Yeah, see? They already have a Jedidiah!

LOL! Do you have all the names momorized?

[Falla39]

Frankly it seems to me that it is no one else's business HOW MANY children
the Duggers have, as long as you are not being asked to pay for their children.
Looks like a pretty good model family as far as taking responsibility for their own
bills, their own kids and a lot of other things.

Children are the heritage of the Lord, or at least that's what the Bible says.
And blessed is the man who has his quiver full.

If everyone did as some (and no offense to anyone who through no fault of their
own cannot have children), but not only don't want any, but make sure they don't
have any, this world would become an empty place. Some would rather have dogs
and cats, etc. than children. And that's their business to do so!

A lady physican in our city told me with tears in her eyes (she was our daughters
physican) that if good people refuse to have children, it leaves it up to others. And
they will have them.

In the Bible or at least the OT, it was considered a curse NOT to have children.
My, how things have changed! Now to hear some talk, it would sound as if it were a
curse to have children, or very many! But then a lot of things have changed and I
am not so sure it is for good!

If you don't want children or more children, that's your business, but me-
thinks people need to get out of the Duggers bedroom. That's their business!!:nod

No offense intended!

Blessings,

Falla39

[Cindy]

Frankly it seems to me that it is no one else's business HOW MANY children
the Duggers have, as long as you are not being asked to pay for their children.
Looks like a pretty good model family as far as taking responsibility for their own
bills, their own kids and a lot of other things.

Children are the heritage of the Lord, or at least that's what the Bible says.
And blessed is the man who has his quiver full.

If everyone did as some (and no offense to anyone who through no fault of their
own cannot have children), but not only don't want any, but make sure they don't
have any, this world would become an empty place. Some would rather have dogs
and cats, etc. than children. And that's their business to do so!

A lady physican in our city told me with tears in her eyes (she was our daughters
physican) that if good people refuse to have children, it leaves it up to others. And
they will have them.

In the Bible or at least the OT, it was considered a curse NOT to have children.
My, how things have changed! Now to hear some talk, it would sound as if it were a
curse to have children, or very many! But then a lot of things have changed and I
am not so sure it is for good!

If you don't want children or more children, that's your business, but me-
thinks people need to get out of the Duggers bedroom. That's their business!!:nod

No offense intended!

Blessings,

Falla39

I worked with a young lady once that had four kids. When I would see her around town I always told her she didn't have enough kids. She and her husband would just laugh and say, not everyone wants to keep up with you.:toofunny

[My Own Eyes]

Well, yeah, but so were the Stepford wives...


Anyhow, I have friends that move in the same (religious) circles as they do, they are of the "house church" movement. They have a lot of similar beliefs as far as "standards" go, but I think the theology is very different.

Actually, the group that my friends are in live a VERY separated lifestyle, much more than most UC apostolics, with a few variations. They do believe in cutting the hair (trimming), and simple jewelery, but all of them home school and keep their children completely away from any outside influences.

Most believe in the "courtship" method of teenagers dating, it is a lot like arranged marriages. They like to have their own businesses, working for other people or companies is not common.

It is a very odd group from the outside looking in, but I do know that my friends are some of the most godly people that I know. It also has given me greater perspective on how the rest of the world sees traditional Apostolics.

In one episode they asked one of the girls why they all had long hair, and she answered "My Dad just likes long hair on girls".

I liked that, that she didn't try to spiritualize it.

My Mom and I watch the show together all the time.

We keep wondering which of the kids are going to rebel. I mean the more you have, the better the chance, ya know?

My vote is on John-David, simply because he is almost never shown on the show, probably because he is out dating, and listen to Contemporary Christian music, or some other craziness :heeheehee

Seriously though, I get the same feeling watching that show as I do reading Anne of Green Gables, or watching Little House on the Prairie, where I think "Awww....isn't that sweet...wouldn't it be great to live like that....."

And then I remember my ipod, and the internet, and the microwave and I think, Nahhhh...I am content where I am. In the case of the Duggars, I simply remember that I am childless feminist, lol.

[Timmy]

LOL! Do you have all the names momorized?

Ha, no, but that one stuck in my mind. (Looked it up, just to be sure, though!)

[Pressing-On]

We have "Bible Baptists" in this area and they are extremely strict - moreso than a lot of Pentecostal churches. They also are VERY evangelistic, even to the point of knocking doors and trying to tell you that you're not saved if you don't hold to Eternal Security. They also put their little kids in the parking lots of stores to hand out tracts.

I have a sister like this - Baptist. Not the handing out tracts thing, but the "more strict" than we are. She used to criticize me and my beliefs years ago. Now she is more strict with her kids and the way they live than I have ever been.

[ILG]

Frankly it seems to me that it is no one else's business HOW MANY children
the Duggers have, as long as you are not being asked to pay for their children.
Looks like a pretty good model family as far as taking responsibility for their own
bills, their own kids and a lot of other things.

Children are the heritage of the Lord, or at least that's what the Bible says.
And blessed is the man who has his quiver full.

If everyone did as some (and no offense to anyone who through no fault of their
own cannot have children), but not only don't want any, but make sure they don't
have any, this world would become an empty place. Some would rather have dogs
and cats, etc. than children. And that's their business to do so!

A lady physican in our city told me with tears in her eyes (she was our daughters
physican) that if good people refuse to have children, it leaves it up to others. And
they will have them.

In the Bible or at least the OT, it was considered a curse NOT to have children.
My, how things have changed! Now to hear some talk, it would sound as if it were a
curse to have children, or very many! But then a lot of things have changed and I
am not so sure it is for good!

If you don't want children or more children, that's your business, but me-
thinks people need to get out of the Duggers bedroom. That's their business!!:nod

No offense intended!

Blessings,

Falla39

I agree Sis. Falla,

I find it disturbing how judgmental people can be about people and large families. I am not sure why people are like that.

[ILG]

In one episode they asked one of the girls why they all had long hair, and she answered "My Dad just likes long hair on girls".
.

But, what do the girls like? Is it all about what Dad likes?

[Timmy]

But, what do the girls like? Is it all about what Dad likes?

You got a problem with that?

:toofunny

[My Own Eyes]

But, what do the girls like? Is it all about what Dad likes?

Ahhh...but where do you draw the line?

I don't have kids, and it is most likely not a decision I will ever have to make.

I mean, when I was growing up my Dad liked me to be home at a certain time, to not use cuss words, and to not watch R-rated movies when they weren't home.

I, of course, didn't want to do any of those things..... ;)

Like I said, not having kids, and not having to be responsible for their upbringing, I honestly don't really know at which point drawing the line becomes overkill. (Of course, you know where I stand on the whole hair thing anyway)

[Amos]

Kids who respect and admire their parents have this weird desire to please them.

It really isn't any more complicated than that.

[My Own Eyes]

Kids who respect and admire their parents have this weird desire to please them.

It really isn't any more complicated than that.

Ahhhh...well that explains a whole lot about my childhood, especially my teenage years!

[Amos]

I am a blessed man.

I am by no means a heavy-handed, authoritarian type parent. I almost never even raise my voice to my sons.

And either one of them would jump off a roof if they thought it would please me.

I don't deserve the kind of kids I have.

[MissBrattified]

But, what do the girls like? Is it all about what Dad likes?

I think there is some merit to allowing some of the house rules to be according to the parents' preference. Our girls, for instance, are not allowed to wear gauchos to town (e.g., for any occasion other than playing outside), not because we think they're necessarily bad, but because their Daddy thinks they don't look feminine or flattering--he just doesn't like them. Good enough reason for me. :coffee2

Jeff told me when we were dating that he didn't ever want me to wear lipstick--he hates the stuff. His mother and sisters cake it on, and it's a big turn off for him. So it's just lip gloss for me. I don't like it either, so it works out well. :D He doesn't have a conviction against women wearing lipstick. He doesn't think a woman will go to hell just for wearing lipstick. He just doesn't like it--so I don't wear it.

[MissBrattified]

I wonder how much the family gets paid to do the tv show. I think that many children is ridiculous.

As long as the children are happy, healthy and well-provided for, I see no problem with it at all.

I don't know how they do it, though. (Financially speaking)

Jeff is having the big V next year to make sure we don't have anymore. I'm not sure how I feel about that. :( I don't necessarily want to pursue having more children (we'd have to see a fertility doc about it)--but I don't like having the option completely taken away either. To be fair, when we discussed it a couple of years ago, I told him I was okay with it. LOL!!! But I would also be okay with one more....

:D

[ILG]

You got a problem with that?

:toofunny

Uh, yeah. :)

[ILG]

As long as the children are happy, healthy and well-provided for, I see no problem with it at all.

I don't know how they do it, though. (Financially speaking)

Jeff is having the big V next year to make sure we don't have anymore. I'm not sure how I feel about that. :( I don't necessarily want to pursue having more children (we'd have to see a fertility doc about it)--but I don't like having the option completely taken away either. To be fair, when we discussed it a couple of years ago, I told him I was okay with it. LOL!!! But I would also be okay with one more....

:D

I asked my husband to put it in God's hands briefly before the big V. He did and it didn't happen and I have been able to let it go because of it.

[ILG]

My husband wants my hair trimmed to my mid-back. I am working on it, but not there quite yet. If he forced me before I was ready, I would not be impressed.

My sister had a fiance who wanted her to shave her head. It was wierd, but hey, it was what the man wanted!!

[ILG]

P.S. She didn't do it. She's a feminist with her own mind!! LOL!

[Cindy]

P.S. She didn't do it. She's a feminist with her own mind!! LOL!

Whew!!! I was gonna ask.

[HeavenlyOne]

I wonder how much the family gets paid to do the tv show. I think that many children is ridiculous.

I think it's ridiculous if they couldn't care for them, but hey, if someone wants that many kids or more and they can afford it, more power to them! From what I've seen on their shows, they are doing an awesome job.

[HappyTown]

I agree with your earlier statement....
Randy! Way funny...:santathumb


Mrs Dugger is actually a very attractive lady (from the shoulders up) her body gives the appearance of the human equivalent of a queen ant -a breeding machine. Can you imagine if a larger % if the population were like her? The only thing that could keep us alive would be huge amounts of soylant green (because of the resulting population explosion)..

[Sept5SavedTeen]

I mentioned this on another thread (and you all get a peek into the type of television I watch, because I live with my parents...)- I LOVE THE DUGGARS!

I can't say enough about how I love the trust they place in GOD, the high standards they uphold and how many young apostolics would do well to follow their example in lifestyle (not necessarily in doctrine). They have a book coming out this month called 20 And Counting, and I am going to get it from CBD's website or Walmart if they have it.

Although I am still young I have thought a bit about GOD's will concerning HIS people, and them having children, and from my 4 years at Catholic school, and a semester or two were contraception and chastity was the main theme for the religion class I had to go to daily, I got an oppurtunity to appreciate the Catholic view on those things. People that look down on the Duggar's or other families for having many children sort of bother me, especially when we consider what we as westerners are up against with Muslims and the rate at which their reproducing. France will be a Muslim country within 50-100 years and Italy isn't far behind. When we had an exchange student from Spain she told me and my sister how she knew of NO families that she had friends in that had more than 3 children. Businesses in my assembly's town are shutting down, and I firmly believe its due to a lack of workers and consumers. I've got to wait 10 minutes in line at Walmart- WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE JUST HAVE BABIES :irate, no, I'm just kidding, :lol, lines at Walmart aren't enough cause to have tons of kids, and I was being a bit facetious, but the other examples I gave are valid, and perhaps Walmart is understaffed by few people being available to work there. It just seems like there's a lack of people- even in Boston and MA. MA has lost Congressmen due to people in MA (MA has a large Catholic population) not having enough kids, birth control and abortion being rampant, and most Catholic families here aren't having kids like they used to and are going back on their Church's teachings. It is disturbing to see people value things over children, and for people to even despise others who are having many children. It is too bad that more apostolics don't search this issue out and come out with a definitive word on this, but then again, apostolics can rarely get together for anything. What is a young couple supposed to do? What does the Bible suggest/command? What does the church teach? Eh, if I go on with this rant of the church not having a definitive statement, I'll start capitalizing the c in church and I'll start looking towards the Big Papa in Rome... ok that's enough of the ranting... I believe in One-God, no Catholic Church, but in having TONS of kids (for the married), ok, I'm good...

-Bro. Alex

[HappyTown]

I mentioned this on another thread (and you all get a peek into the type of television I watch, because I live with my parents...)- I LOVE THE DUGGARS!

I can't say enough about how I love the trust they place in GOD, the high standards they uphold and how many young apostolics would do well to follow their example in lifestyle (not necessarily in doctrine). They have a book coming out this month called 20 And Counting, and I am going to get it from CBD's website or Walmart if they have it.

Although I am still young I have thought a bit about GOD's will concerning HIS people, and them having children, and from my 4 years at Catholic school, and a semester or two were contraception and chastity was the main theme for the religion class I had to go to daily, I got an oppurtunity to appreciate the Catholic view on those things. People that look down on the Duggar's or other families for having many children sort of bother me, especially when we consider what we as westerners are up against with Muslims and the rate at which their reproducing. France will be a Muslim country within 50-100 years and Italy isn't far behind. When we had an exchange student from Spain she told me and my sister how she knew of NO families that she had friends in that had more than 3 children. Businesses in my assembly's town are shutting down, and I firmly believe its due to a lack of workers and consumers. I've got to wait 10 minutes in line at Walmart- WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE JUST HAVE BABIES :irate, no, I'm just kidding, :lol, lines at Walmart aren't enough cause to have tons of kids, and I was being a bit facetious, but the other examples I gave are valid, and perhaps Walmart is understaffed by few people being available to work there. It just seems like there's a lack of people- even in Boston and MA. MA has lost Congressmen due to people in MA (MA has a large Catholic population) not having enough kids, birth control and abortion being rampant, and most Catholic families here aren't having kids like they used to and are going back on their Church's teachings. It is disturbing to see people value things over children, and for people to even despise others who are having many children. It is too bad that more apostolics don't search this issue out and come out with a definitive word on this, but then again, apostolics can rarely get together for anything. What is a young couple supposed to do? What does the Bible suggest/command? What does the church teach? Eh, if I go on with this rant of the church not having a definitive statement, I'll start capitalizing the c in church and I'll start looking towards the Big Papa in Rome... ok that's enough of the ranting... I believe in One-God, no Catholic Church, but in having TONS of kids (for the married), ok, I'm good...

-Bro. Alex

Went into the big city today, it just reinforced what I already believe, there way to many people!

JUST SAY NO...Or do as Randy did, snip, snip....;):gotcha

[RandyWayne]

Went into the big city today, it just reinforced what I already believe, there way to many people!

JUST SAY NO...Or do as Randy did, snip, snip....;):gotcha

It wasn't that bad.... and only cost a couple of hundred bucks.

[RandyWayne]

I mentioned this on another thread (and you all get a peek into the type of television I watch, because I live with my parents...)- I LOVE THE DUGGARS!

I can't say enough about how I love the trust they place in GOD, the high standards they uphold and how many young apostolics would do well to follow their example in lifestyle (not necessarily in doctrine). They have a book coming out this month called 20 And Counting, and I am going to get it from CBD's website or Walmart if they have it.

Although I am still young I have thought a bit about GOD's will concerning HIS people, and them having children, and from my 4 years at Catholic school, and a semester or two were contraception and chastity was the main theme for the religion class I had to go to daily, I got an oppurtunity to appreciate the Catholic view on those things. People that look down on the Duggar's or other families for having many children sort of bother me, especially when we consider what we as westerners are up against with Muslims and the rate at which their reproducing. France will be a Muslim country within 50-100 years and Italy isn't far behind. When we had an exchange student from Spain she told me and my sister how she knew of NO families that she had friends in that had more than 3 children. Businesses in my assembly's town are shutting down, and I firmly believe its due to a lack of workers and consumers. I've got to wait 10 minutes in line at Walmart- WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE JUST HAVE BABIES :irate, no, I'm just kidding, :lol, lines at Walmart aren't enough cause to have tons of kids, and I was being a bit facetious, but the other examples I gave are valid, and perhaps Walmart is understaffed by few people being available to work there. It just seems like there's a lack of people- even in Boston and MA. MA has lost Congressmen due to people in MA (MA has a large Catholic population) not having enough kids, birth control and abortion being rampant, and most Catholic families here aren't having kids like they used to and are going back on their Church's teachings. It is disturbing to see people value things over children, and for people to even despise others who are having many children. It is too bad that more apostolics don't search this issue out and come out with a definitive word on this, but then again, apostolics can rarely get together for anything. What is a young couple supposed to do? What does the Bible suggest/command? What does the church teach? Eh, if I go on with this rant of the church not having a definitive statement, I'll start capitalizing the c in church and I'll start looking towards the Big Papa in Rome... ok that's enough of the ranting... I believe in One-God, no Catholic Church, but in having TONS of kids (for the married), ok, I'm good...

-Bro. Alex

So much to say here...... <sigh>

It IS pure selfishness for someone WITH kids to ignore or give them less than 100% but it is also pure wisdom to NOT have kids if you know you can't give them 100%..............

Oh yes, if you have "tons of kids" will you still claim every one as a tax deduction? Our old neighbors have 5. They didn't have a single cent withheld from their paychecks in federal or state income taxes and STILL GOT BACK OVER SIX GRAND! They "think" they aren't on welfare......

And on another note, why are we allowed to pick and choose from Catholicism when it comes to how we should live? We should follow them in their push for large families yet shun them because of Christmas?

[HappyTown]

It wasn't that bad.... and only cost a couple of hundred bucks.

Vet even cheaper dude...;)

[Kae]

Went into the big city today, it just reinforced what I already believe, there way to many people!

JUST SAY NO...Or do as Randy did, snip, snip....;):gotcha

US Birth rates are down and have been declining. When we lived in Germany they paid the women to have children, due to the birth rate being lower than the death rate.

[HappyTown]

So much to say here...... <sigh>

It IS pure selfishness for someone WITH kids to ignore or give them less than 100% but it is also pure wisdom to NOT have kids if you know you can't give them 100%..............

Oh yes, if you have "tons of kids" will you still claim every one as a tax deduction? Our old neighbors have 5. They didn't have a single cent withheld from their paychecks in federal or state income taxes and STILL GOT BACK OVER SIX GRAND! They "think" they aren't on welfare......

And on another note, why are we allowed to pick and choose from Catholicism when it comes to how we should live? We should follow them in their push for large families yet shun them because of Christmas?

Randy when we lived in UT most our neighbors had eight kids or more, yes most the moms were on Prozac. I can't tell you how many times their kids were playing in the road almost hit by cars, while mommy just sat there in a half baked daze!

[jaxfam6]

US Birth rates are down and have been declining. When we lived in Germany they paid the women to have children, due to the birth rate being lower than the death rate.

I know a few places, people, and families that need this problem.




:christmoose

[RandyWayne]

I know a few places, people, and families that need this problem.




:christmoose

So do I.

And in my own family. <sigh>

[Sept5SavedTeen]

AHHH! This anti-children agenda is terrible- people are wishing their relatives would die off to save us from overcrowding! I once heard that Texas could fit every human on earth within its borders and the population density would be that of New York City, now obviously no one is going to live in Antartica, but there's still PLENTY of room...

Also, I didn't know about the tax right off being that good, that's exciting news- all the more reason to expand the Kingdom! My thought is this, concerning the men, where has the desire gone to get a wife, have a dozen kids and see a lineage follow you to Glory?! There is nothing more that I want than to have 100 decendants all on a campground as I wheel myself up on a wheel chair (when I'm in my late 90s or so), take the mike and bless the food that my half dozen sons barbequed! If the people of GOD would have, say 7-12 kids each, and each of those kids got married and had 7-12, just in children, their spouses and kids within 2 generations there'd be over a hundred people, and if you raise them right... and they win souls.... and those souls have big families... WE COULD TAKE OVER THE WORLD! (Now I'm sounding like a post millenialist, :lol)

But come on, sure it's a lot of work, but the people of GOD can do it. Westerners are going to be outnumbered by the Muslims soon if we don't!

Also, talking about vasectomies is GROSS, and getting one has GOT TO BE WRONG! I know it's not in the Book per say, but if they wrote about such a thing, the people of that day probably wouldn't have believed it (same as if they wrote something like, "Don't go to movie theaters" or something like that). Actually the Law is fairly clear in not messing with our reproductive systems that GOD gave us. Along with being fruitful, there are commands AGAINST allowing certain kinds of men to hold priesthood if they had gotten injured in some way.

I just don't get it. I'm 19, looking to get married one day, should the LORD provide an apostolic girl who wants to have a dozen children, and to think that there are brothers with wives that are preventing themselves from having children, and looking at children as a burden and messing with the plan of GOD... I feel bad for you, I don't know how the spirit of the world got to you in this deceptive way

-Bro. Alex

[HeavenlyOne]

AHHH! This anti-children agenda is terrible- people are wishing their relatives would die off to save us from overcrowding! I once heard that Texas could fit every human on earth within its borders and the population density would be that of New York City, now obviously no one is going to live in Antartica, but there's still PLENTY of room...

Also, I didn't know about the tax right off being that good, that's exciting news- all the more reason to expand the Kingdom! My thought is this, concerning the men, where has the desire gone to get a wife, have a dozen kids and see a lineage follow you to Glory?! There is nothing more that I want than to have 100 decendants all on a campground as I wheel myself up on a wheel chair (when I'm in my late 90s or so), take the mike and bless the food that my half dozen sons barbequed! If the people of GOD would have, say 7-12 kids each, and each of those kids got married and had 7-12, just in children, their spouses and kids within 2 generations there'd be over a hundred people, and if you raise them right... and they win souls.... and those souls have big families... WE COULD TAKE OVER THE WORLD! (Now I'm sounding like a post millenialist, :lol)

But come on, sure it's a lot of work, but the people of GOD can do it. Westerners are going to be outnumbered by the Muslims soon if we don't!

Also, talking about vasectomies is GROSS, and getting one has GOT TO BE WRONG! I know it's not in the Book per say, but if they wrote about such a thing, the people of that day probably wouldn't have believed it (same as if they wrote something like, "Don't go to movie theaters" or something like that). Actually the Law is fairly clear in not messing with our reproductive systems that GOD gave us. Along with being fruitful, there are commands AGAINST allowing certain kinds of men to hold priesthood if they had gotten injured in some way.

I just don't get it. I'm 19, looking to get married one day, should the LORD provide an apostolic girl who wants to have a dozen children, and to think that there are brothers with wives that are preventing themselves from having children, and looking at children as a burden and messing with the plan of GOD... I feel bad for you, I don't know how the spirit of the world got to you in this deceptive way

-Bro. Alex

Ah, the innocence of youth!

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Ah, the innocence of youth!

Oh, the sloth of the old!

-Bro. Alex

[HeavenlyOne]

Oh, the sloth of the old!

-Bro. Alex

Hmmm.....I must be really old, cause it makes no sense.

But hey, you'll wisen up one of these days, and you'll be just as 'slothy' as the rest of us!

[Carpenter]

As I have said before, there is something about this family that creeps me out. Something that is just not "right".
I almost feel like Mrs Duggers "mask" will fall off one of these episodes revealing her robotic underside and it will be up to Col Steve Austin to battle her on the desert hillside.

LOL!!! :slaphappy

I know exactly what you are talking about. I had the thought that one day she is going to spontaneously combust...

[Carpenter]

I have this pinch of sadness because we have been trying for years to have another and it just isn't happening. So we will be very happy and content with one...the most beautiful one on the planet.

...but it is sad not being able to give her a sibling and having to watch other families with that dynamic in place. Now that I think about it not to mention all the hair and skirt stuff getting under my skin, it kind of breaks my heart to see the interaction between the brothers and sisters.

I can only imagine how childless couples feel...

I always tell my daughter when she asks if we are going to have more or why we haven't had more kids, that I wish she had a twin or two twin sisters...because I would love to have more kids exactly like her...

[ILG]

So much to say here...... <sigh>

It IS pure selfishness for someone WITH kids to ignore or give them less than 100% but it is also pure wisdom to NOT have kids if you know you can't give them 100%..............

Oh yes, if you have "tons of kids" will you still claim every one as a tax deduction? Our old neighbors have 5. They didn't have a single cent withheld from their paychecks in federal or state income taxes and STILL GOT BACK OVER SIX GRAND! They "think" they aren't on welfare......

And on another note, why are we allowed to pick and choose from Catholicism when it comes to how we should live? We should follow them in their push for large families yet shun them because of Christmas?

They are not on welfare. They don't make the tax system. People raising kids are doing a huge job. Somebody has to do it and I admire them.

[ILG]

Randy when we lived in UT most our neighbors had eight kids or more, yes most the moms were on Prozac. I can't tell you how many times their kids were playing in the road almost hit by cars, while mommy just sat there in a half baked daze!

They were on prozac because they were worried that the Mormon church might allow polygamy again anyday! (And that is no joke!)

[jtork]

AHHH! This anti-children agenda is terrible- people are wishing their relatives would die off to save us from overcrowding! I once heard that Texas could fit every human on earth within its borders and the population density would be that of New York City, now obviously no one is going to live in Antartica, but there's still PLENTY of room...

Also, I didn't know about the tax right off being that good, that's exciting news- all the more reason to expand the Kingdom! My thought is this, concerning the men, where has the desire gone to get a wife, have a dozen kids and see a lineage follow you to Glory?! There is nothing more that I want than to have 100 decendants all on a campground as I wheel myself up on a wheel chair (when I'm in my late 90s or so), take the mike and bless the food that my half dozen sons barbequed! If the people of GOD would have, say 7-12 kids each, and each of those kids got married and had 7-12, just in children, their spouses and kids within 2 generations there'd be over a hundred people, and if you raise them right... and they win souls.... and those souls have big families... WE COULD TAKE OVER THE WORLD! (Now I'm sounding like a post millenialist, :lol)

But come on, sure it's a lot of work, but the people of GOD can do it. Westerners are going to be outnumbered by the Muslims soon if we don't!

Also, talking about vasectomies is GROSS, and getting one has GOT TO BE WRONG! I know it's not in the Book per say, but if they wrote about such a thing, the people of that day probably wouldn't have believed it (same as if they wrote something like, "Don't go to movie theaters" or something like that). Actually the Law is fairly clear in not messing with our reproductive systems that GOD gave us. Along with being fruitful, there are commands AGAINST allowing certain kinds of men to hold priesthood if they had gotten injured in some way.

I just don't get it. I'm 19, looking to get married one day, should the LORD provide an apostolic girl who wants to have a dozen children, and to think that there are brothers with wives that are preventing themselves from having children, and looking at children as a burden and messing with the plan of GOD... I feel bad for you, I don't know how the spirit of the world got to you in this deceptive way

-Bro. Alex



OH My - You have so much to learn - part of God's plan is for us to use the brain he gave us! Just because something happens does not mean it is God's plan! Sometimes God lets us suffer the consequences of our choices and believe you me I am sure I would suffer MUCH if I had 12 or more kids!!! :-)

[Traci]

Some couples believe that God should be in control of all areas of there lives including how many children they have. Nothing wrong with that.

[jtork]

That's good that they feel that way - why don't we all just get in a car and shut our eyes and drive down the freeway and let God be in control - can he get us safely through the freeway - of course he could - just saying we should use the common sense God gave us.

[ILG]

I am always amazed at how mad people get if they say they want a lot of kids. Makes no sense to me. It's not personal. LOL!

I think Sept may change his tune after a few and think spacing may be desirable. I think the birth control is a sin people are taking it too far. But, if folks want to have a lot of children and they are responsible about it, to everyone else, it's just nunya!

[jtork]

I am always amazed at how mad people get if they say they want a lot of kids. Makes no sense to me. It's not personal. LOL!

I think Sept may change his tune after a few and think spacing may be desirable. I think the birth control is a sin people are taking it too far. But, if folks want to have a lot of children and they are responsible about it, to everyone else, it's just nunya!

I agree with you 100% and especially about the part where Sept will change his mind! I would love to have about 5 kids, but I am smart enough to know it is not financially possible or mentally possible - learned that after havinig just one! LOL. It really isn't anyone's business how many kids someone has but it does kind of get under my skin when they have kid after kid after kid without the means to support them.

[ILG]

I agree with you 100% and especially about the part where Sept will change his mind! I would love to have about 5 kids, but I am smart enough to know it is not financially possible or mentally possible - learned that after havinig just one! LOL. It really isn't anyone's business how many kids someone has but it does kind of get under my skin when they have kid after kid after kid without the means to support them.

Yes, if they aren't taking care of them, that is another story, even if they have just one!

[RandyWayne]

Also, talking about vasectomies is GROSS, and getting one has GOT TO BE WRONG! I know it's not in the Book per say, but if they wrote about such a thing, the people of that day probably wouldn't have believed it (same as if they wrote something like, "Don't go to movie theaters" or something like that). Actually the Law is fairly clear in not messing with our reproductive systems that GOD gave us. Along with being fruitful, there are commands AGAINST allowing certain kinds of men to hold priesthood if they had gotten injured in some way.

Getting root canals is gross too, but sometimes they need to be done.

And what is all this talk of "the law"? Tell me how many ox, goats, sheep, and doves you killed the past month? After all, if you follow any part of the law it is beholden on you to follow ALL of it......

[Coffee99]

:christmoose Ah, to have the energy that I had at 19! I miss that - and the feeling that I had it all figured out when I was 19. Life experience brings about changes. I wonder if Sept Teen will still be this certain when he is 50?:christmasfire

[RandyWayne]

:christmoose Ah, to have the energy that I had at 19! I miss that - and the feeling that I had it all figured out when I was 19. Life experience brings about changes. I wonder if Sept Teen will still be this certain when he is 50?:christmasfire

Or 25.

[dizzyde]

My biggest and really only problem with this situation, and with any situation where people have a lot of children (providing of course that they have the finances to support them all the way through their childhoods, and hopefully educations) is this, at a certain point the older siblings have to start giving up their childhoods in order for the house to run. The older brothers and sisters have to become surrogate parents, because there is no way that mom and dad have the time or the energy to take care of them all. You see this in this Duggar house, they call them "buddies" I think, which is just a euphemism for "I have to take care of this child".

I have a real problem with that. I think some of these girls are going to be so tired of taking care of children by the time they are adults, that they are not going to want to have their own children for a long time, if ever. Just my two cents... :2cents

[Coffee99]

Or 25.

Yep - 25 is a real eye opener as well!:santathumb

[Traci]

IMO, in our sociey we have been conditioned to have a distain for people who have more than the "norm"--the 2 child family--and that is not supported in the Bible. Children are a blessing whether you have 1 or 17. I have three.:christmasjig

[Sept5SavedTeen]

And what is all this talk of "the law"? Tell me how many ox, goats, sheep, and doves you killed the past month? After all, if you follow any part of the law it is beholden on you to follow ALL of it......

Uhhh... four of each, like any good apostolic!!! :lol, jk


Interesting discussion... I don't have much more to contribute, since I don't have kids, a wife or a girl I'm courting, so LORD knows I am a long way off, but when you see a bunch of short apostolics with glasses walking around 20 years from now, just know that I've made my mark :thumbsup

-Bro. Alex

[Cindy]

My biggest and really only problem with this situation, and with any situation where people have a lot of children (providing of course that they have the finances to support them all the way through their childhoods, and hopefully educations) is this, at a certain point the older siblings have to start giving up their childhoods in order for the house to run. The older brothers and sisters have to become surrogate parents, because there is no way that mom and dad have the time or the energy to take care of them all. You see this in this Duggar house, they call them "buddies" I think, which is just a euphemism for "I have to take care of this child".

I have a real problem with that. I think some of these girls are going to be so tired of taking care of children by the time they are adults, that they are not going to want to have their own children for a long time, if ever. Just my two cents... :2cents

Yep, and some become resentful probably.

[RandyWayne]

My biggest and really only problem with this situation, and with any situation where people have a lot of children (providing of course that they have the finances to support them all the way through their childhoods, and hopefully educations) is this, at a certain point the older siblings have to start giving up their childhoods in order for the house to run. The older brothers and sisters have to become surrogate parents, because there is no way that mom and dad have the time or the energy to take care of them all. You see this in this Duggar house, they call them "buddies" I think, which is just a euphemism for "I have to take care of this child".

I have a real problem with that. I think some of these girls are going to be so tired of taking care of children by the time they are adults, that they are not going to want to have their own children for a long time, if ever. Just my two cents... :2cents

I am assuming that we will see both extremes with their family. Half will probably "attempt" to have as many kids as their parents and the others will have none, one, or two kids at the most. I am sure that they are being told all the normal things such as "Only God controls the number of children you will have" and the evils of preventing said conceptions.....

And yes, what if you belonged to that family and didn't want to care for children? Seems like the choice has been taken away from you already since the oldest DO a good % of the child rearing themselves it seems.

[Coffee99]

IMO, in our sociey we have been conditioned to have a distain for people who have more than the "norm"--the 2 child family--and that is not supported in the Bible. Children are a blessing whether you have 1 or 17. I have three.:christmasjig

I have three. And if we could have afforded it, I would have liked to have a couple more. But, we could not afford to have more and take care of them and spend time with them like we wanted to with more than three. Nor would I have had the energy to keep up with more. So, I comfort myself that these three will marry and that will make six. And, then if I'm lucky, they will have children. And that is pretty great, because I will have my large family and still have stopped where it was appropriate for my husband and I.:christmasjig

[dizzyde]

I am assuming that we will see both extremes with their family. Half will probably "attempt" to have as many kids as their parents and the others will have none, one, or two kids at the most. I am sure that they are being told all the normal things such as "Only God controls the number of children you will have" and the evils of preventing said conceptions.....

And yes, what if you belonged to that family and didn't want to care for children? Seems like the choice has been taken away from you already since the oldest DO a good % of the child rearing themselves it seems.

Exactly. I feel sad when I see a family where the are kids being required to take care of other kids (and it isn't always in just large families). And I am not talking about babysitting for the parents every so often, I am talking about the day in, day out stuff. I always think, what about them? When do they get to be kids, why do they have to forfeit being a child?

[My Own Eyes]

I wonder how far they go with this "Let God decide" thing...

What if one of them has a physical problem that makes it hard to conceive. Do they consider going to a fertility specialist or getting In Vitro, to be going against the will of God?

My Ex and I when we were young and foolish (and ironically not even Christians) made the decision to "let God decide" (I think at the time I thought of it more as fate or the "universe" in a more generic way).

But a few years after we were married, and after I was saved, I was up at an altar praying about the issue. And I felt God tell me that me having children was not part of his plan for my life...however, that if I felt that I really wanted them, or couldn't be happy without them, that he would make it happen. At the time, it was really hard, but I told God that as much as I wanted Children, I wanted His will for me more.

Of course, over time I went from being resigned about not having children, to learning to appreciate and focus on the positive aspects of it (rather than wallowing in the sad parts). And of course, with my recent divorce, I was so glad at that time, that there were no children affected by it.

There are only a handful where I feel so strongly, with no doubt that God clearly spoke to me about something, but that was one of them.

[Falla39]

I am not responding personally to any certain poster but as someone who has lived
and viewed life from the opposite of many here. How many have looked at the situation
and posted their view, only from a standpoint of what they think about it. Then again,
how many have posted from experience of having been there, done that.

We were children born into a family whose parents and grandparents had come through
and out of the "Great Depression". In 1944, my late father was called upon (drafted) to
serve in the U.S. Army in WWII. (No amount of talking, explaining the hardship of my dad
leaving home, while having four small children, the eldest not quite six yrs, and I was not
quite five yrs. old. Two more younger than I.) could persuade the man who represented
the county draft board, to give him an exemption. After basic training in the states, Dad
was shipped overseas to serve first in the Philippeans and then in Japan. God brought him
home safely to his family.

Mom told me that two or three days before they married, they talked about their plans
and hopes for the future. They agreed that they both wanted to trust in the Lord with
everything, including childbirth. Mom said after they got married, before they went to
bed for the first time together, my father knelt down beside the bed and prayed. That
touched her heart and she felt God put faith in heart for Him and for the man who would
represent the leadership in their home.

As we were being trained up in the way we SHOULD go, if we kids got into a fight or a
squabble, we were made to hug each other and say we were sorry. (I am almost sure we
weren't always sorry, but we were being "trained up" to love our brothers and our sisters.
We older helped care for the younger. That's where I learned to love and care for my own
children. When you are taught from the beginning to love and care, it will/should
follow you as long as you live. That is unless there is something that goes against your
training. There are sometimes people who will, in those growing up years, that will support
your children in their rebellion toward their upbringing/training, etc.

Our parents did not one time depend on the government to take care of their children.
They knew who their Provider was and made sure HE knew they trusted Him for their and
their children's needs.

Now when Dad started the work of God in our town in 1958, he worked a fulltime job.
He did not expect anyone else to support his family. (If a man knows not how to care
for his own first, how can he take care of the house of the Lord.)

After some years, and the church had grown, he felt that God would have him give
himself totally to the ministry. He pastored for over 30 yrs., until his health forced him
to let go and allow God to provide another pastor.

In the few weeks before he passed on, his eleven children (he had raised in the fear and
admonition of the Lord), came and spent the nights with Mom and Dad, making sure she
could get enough rest also. A schedule was put on the calender and each of the children
put down what night they could stay. Eleven children made it possible for no one to be
put under a hardship. We came gladly and willingly. After all, this was our father who had
given his life to God,wife and his children. Our mother who had birthed us and nurtured
us to young adulthood. We learned to be responsible adults. We learned to love our child-
ren and others. We learned to love our fellow man, our neighbors, by precept and
example. We learned that God is faithful and HE is ABOVE ALL, and should be IN us all.

Now to all those who don't think it's worth it to have several children, who's gonna take
care of you when you're old and grey-headed! We still have our health, but our six adult
children already show loving concern if they think something is not going well with their
dad and mom who birthed them, trained them, loved and nurtured them to be mature
young adults, and taught them to be responsible and valuable citizens, making
a difference in their community.

A three-fold cord isn't easily broken. Grandparents, parents and children. Three genera-
tions of strength.
No wonder our world has come to where it is. Stinking thinking!!!

Not to offend ANYONE!!!!

Blessings,

Falla39

[Traci]

Amen, Sis Falla.

My Mom had 3 children but one was born when she was 41 and I was 16. There was a point when my sis was a baby that I had to take care of her because my mom was put on 2nd shift and yes I did resent it sometimes and it did help me see that I did not want to put myself in a position as a teenager that I could have one of my own and I did not have my 1st till I was 25 because I knew how much work it was and I also learned about responsibility of another human being. I would not trade my experience for the world and I love my sister who is now 24. I now have a 14 year old who is experiencing what it is like to have a 3 1/2 yr old special needs sister and a 9 mo old baby brother. I don't ask him to do a lot but it is good for him to help a little, he now understands about babies and the responsiblities that come with them. I think it is good for teens to see outside of themselves. I don't want to offend either...

[ILG]

My biggest and really only problem with this situation, and with any situation where people have a lot of children (providing of course that they have the finances to support them all the way through their childhoods, and hopefully educations) is this, at a certain point the older siblings have to start giving up their childhoods in order for the house to run. The older brothers and sisters have to become surrogate parents, because there is no way that mom and dad have the time or the energy to take care of them all. You see this in this Duggar house, they call them "buddies" I think, which is just a euphemism for "I have to take care of this child".

I have a real problem with that. I think some of these girls are going to be so tired of taking care of children by the time they are adults, that they are not going to want to have their own children for a long time, if ever. Just my two cents... :2cents

I don't agree. I think it teaches responsibility.

[dizzyde]

I don't agree. I think it teaches responsibility.

That's fine, I know that people have very differing opinion on this issues, I just stated mine. :christmoose I personally don't think that teaching responsibility is accomplished by making my child/children do my job.

Part of my problem also lies in watching a friend of mine right now waste away from severe postpartum depression. She is still be convinced after having 4 children back to back that having another child will make her happy. All the while, the four beautiful baby girls that she already has are not getting the attention they need from her. She is convinced that because she came from a large family, she is somehow less if she doesn't continue having children, despite how her husband feels on the subject.

There are many, many considerations in discussing this topic, and there is no one right way to think about it, it all depends on the big picture.

[HappyTown]

They were on prozac because they were worried that the Mormon church might allow polygamy again anyday! (And that is no joke!)

I do know one thing for sure, there was a lot pressure put on their women to have a lot of kids . Cindy who lived next to us was so happy when she got to number seven, said at last I can stop, have my tubes tied! The Bishops decide how many kids each couple will have during the Temple marriage, while placing their hands on you while standing behind a curtain that has gaps to allow a hand through, norm was seven kids at best.

[Falla39]

Amen, Sis Falla.

My Mom had 3 children but one was born when she was 41 and I was 16. There was a point when my sis was a baby that I had to take care of her because my mom was put on 2nd shift and yes I did resent it sometimes and it did help me see that I did not want to put myself in a position as a teenager that I could have one of my own and I did not have my 1st till I was 25 because I knew how much work it was and I also learned about responsibility of another human being. I would not trade my experience for the world and I love my sister who is now 24. I now have a 14 year old who is experiencing what it is like to have a 3 1/2 yr old special needs sister and a 9 mo old baby brother. I don't ask him to do a lot but it is good for him to help a little, he now understands about babies and the responsiblities that come with them. I think it is good for teens to see outside of themselves. I don't want to offend either...


Dearest Traci,

I read on another thread "http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=20851,
where you responded to Crakjak concerning "Coventry", the ministry for special needs
adults.

Crakjak is my blood brother. He and his wife have a special needs son, 37 or 38 yrs.
old. Coventry was born out of the needs of their own son, Anthony.

They have three younger adult children. There is such a closeness among their
children. Such patience and love toward their elder brother. If there is
an ounce of resentment or displeasure, you certainly don't see a trace of it.
Just love and closeness. Also respect for their parents. They have helped
with Anthony and because of it is possibly why his only sister is training to be
a nurse.

It seems sometimes when we are faced with life's difficulties, there is that
opportunity to become bitter, as if we had been singled out. But God has a
definite plan for each of us. Our reaction to the "wheel" or the means in which
HE refines us, if resisted, can leave us bitter, instead of better. It is our re-
action to this molding and making of us that determines the outcome.

I love the song Sis.Joan Ewing wrote and her husband, Bro. Murrell
sings so beautifully.

"I Pray That Jesus Is All They Will See".


Write on the parchment of my soul today,
A message that you'd wish my life to say.
I'm weary with my way, it's Your's I must find,
So mold me and bend me, not my will but Thine.

Chorus

Create in me, Your image, O, Lord,
Let me be all You've dreamed I could be.
And when You have finished with Your work in me,
I pray that Jesus is all they will see.

Often I've reached for this world and it's gain,
Each time to find out, it brought only pain.
I've finally found that Your way, Lord, is best,
And with the learning, has come peace and rest.


I have read that the process of purification of silver/gold is complete
when the purifier can see his reflection in the finished product (process).

Hugs,

Falla39 (Crakjak's elder sister!)

[ILG]

That's fine, I know that people have very differing opinion on this issues, I just stated mine. :christmoose I personally don't think that teaching responsibility is accomplished by making my child/children do my job.

Part of my problem also lies in watching a friend of mine right now waste away from severe postpartum depression. She is still be convinced after having 4 children back to back that having another child will make her happy. All the while, the four beautiful baby girls that she already has are not getting the attention they need from her. She is convinced that because she came from a large family, she is somehow less if she doesn't continue having children, despite how her husband feels on the subject.
.

I agree that she is someone to be concerned about regarding having many children.

[ILG]

I do know one thing for sure, there was a lot pressure put on their women to have a lot of kids . Cindy who lived next to us was so happy when she got to number seven, said at last I can stop, have my tubes tied! The Bishops decide how many kids each couple will have during the Temple marriage, while placing their hands on you while standing behind a curtain that has gaps to allow a hand through, norm was seven kids at best.

That is spiritual abuse.

[Falla39]

Our mother came from a large family and Dad only had a brother and sister. My husband
had a brother and sister and one year after we married, his mother had another baby boy.

I am the eldest daughter of the eleven, having one older brother. Being the eldest daughter
I had more responsibility than the younger. Don't ever recall feeling like I was mistreated,
unloved, etc. I don't remember thinking anything about having responsibility. It has been a
blessing when I had my own children.

We raised 6 children (three of each), all adults with their own families now Our eldest daug-
ter and husband have five fine sons, the two eldest sons are licensed ministers. We are a
very close family and love each other very much! I didn't run out of LOVE from helping with
my siblings and then having our children. Love begets more love.

I love my siblings and they know it! And they love me. It's kind of like the Bible saying, "Let
he that will have friends, show himself friendly". If we want to be loved, let us show Love!

A minister came and preached one night. He said some people do things because they know
it's the thing to do. Then there are those who do things because of who/what they are!

I am very excited for I have a very nice Christmas gift for each of my sibling's family.
and also for each of our six adult children's families. Jesus said it right, "It is more blessed
(rewarding) to give than to receive". Where did He got that idea!!! From His Father, who
SO LOVED that He gave JESUS to us". We could never outgive God! Our eldest daughter
sang so beautifully Sunday, "The Best Gift of All is Jesus", and He is here to stay. He lasts!!:nod

Blessings to all,

Falla39

[RandyWayne]

Me and my wife are looking forward to having our first Christmas ALONE this year!

NO kids in the house -other then a couple of the four legged variety.