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COOPER
04-03-2007, 03:41 PM
Where is the Rank and Order of the Five Fold Ministers????

Why are the Pastors recieving tithe and not the others????

Why is not this office shared as a whole????



Five fold ministry?

Has man created another doctrine by using Gods scripture?

Where in this verse does it give rank and order?

And where does it teach men receive any kind of calling to such.

Who today is an Apostle?

Who is the Apostle of UPC or your Church.

Are there Five seats on the platform for Five ministers?

And who then is the Head or leader among-st them?

Coop,

You are making the transition from the Scripturally ignorant to the utterly ridiculous.

No I am not Coon.

Who are the men of the Five fold ministry at your Church Coon?

Why do Pastors became the leader of a Church?

Where is the rank and order of the five fold ministry Coon?

Utterly ridiculous???

Who determined that a Pastor is a recipient of tithes and called a man of God and not the other four????

Yes!!! It's ridiculous to this ignoramus.

What up with this?

mfblume
04-03-2007, 03:53 PM
Tradition.

Alternative: Tithes go to the five fold ministry and workers in the church, but are never meant to be law.

Firstfruits: Something other than tithes, go to the set man in the church. Eg. The ANGEL of the church is any one of the five fold ministries, but is the particular one set in the local church.

Actaeon
04-03-2007, 03:56 PM
two in a row

mfblume
04-03-2007, 03:58 PM
two in a row


Two challenges to tradition? How about contrasting with scripture instead of tradition?

Actaeon
04-03-2007, 04:00 PM
Yeah, I am still studing ALL the scriptures you brought out...........

berkeley
04-03-2007, 04:02 PM
Blume,

now don't ya go and make some sense... you'll make some idiot lurker go and rebel against his pastor..:slaphappy

mfblume
04-03-2007, 04:03 PM
Yeah, I am still studing ALL the scriptures you brought out...........

Amen. Like Revelation chapters 2 through 3 and the ones about tithes and firstfruits.

I used to think firstfruits were tithes, but now see they are not. VERY interesting study!

COOPER
04-03-2007, 04:08 PM
Two challenges to tradition? How about contrasting with scripture instead of tradition?

Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:10-12 (in Context) Ephesians 4 (Whole Chapter)

This verse is plural, is this for one assembly?

Who are the Apostles of today?

Who is reconized as the Prophet?

mfblume
04-03-2007, 04:10 PM
Neh 10:37 KJV And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.Firstfruits were for priests in the OT and tithes for the Levites.

All Levites were not priests. Aaron's lineage was only one lineage in the Levites. His lineage was priestly.

Firstfruits are something God can bless us in, but one has to learn about them now.

Tithing is not LAW, but it is a way God can bless us. People make the mistake of going too far both ways -- no tithes or tithes demanded legalistically.

We still give, but it leaves DUTY to come to OPPORTUNITY now.

mfblume
04-03-2007, 04:12 PM
This verse is plural, is this for one assembly?
Could be, depending upon the size.

Who are the Apostles of today? Those gifted to oversee several churches.

Who is reconized as the Prophet? Those with the gift and a multitude of signs and wonders, used in the prophetic word. Unfortunately there are too many non-prophet organizations. :(

COOPER
04-03-2007, 04:15 PM
[QUOTE=mfblume;63233]Firstfruits were for priests in the OT and tithes for the Levites.

All Levites were not priests. Aaron's lineage was only one lineage in the Levites. His lineage was priestly.

Firstfruits are something God can bless us in, but one has to learn about them now.

Tithing is not LAW, but it is a way God can bless us. People make the mistake of going too far both ways -- no tithes or tithes demanded legalistically.

We still give, but it leaves DUTY to come to OPPORTUNITY now.[/
QUOTE]

Americans love to give, Billions were given to the recent disasters.

It seems that would be helping thy neighbor.

If you gave to them, you gave to God?

berkeley
04-03-2007, 04:16 PM
Unfortunately there are too many non-prophet organizations. :(

:grampa

mfblume
04-03-2007, 04:17 PM
Firstfruits were for priests in the OT and tithes for the Levites.

All Levites were not priests. Aaron's lineage was only one lineage in the Levites. His lineage was priestly.

Firstfruits are something God can bless us in, but one has to learn about them now.

Tithing is not LAW, but it is a way God can bless us. People make the mistake of going too far both ways -- no tithes or tithes demanded legalistically.

We still give, but it leaves DUTY to come to OPPORTUNITY now.


Americans love to give, Billions were given to the recent disasters.

It seems that would be helping thy neighbor.

If you gave to them, you gave to God?

Sure! But giving to God's work is also involved. ANY sacrifice as unto the Lord is giving. 1 Cor 9 is all about ministry supported by the saints financially. We cannot do one and leave the other neglected. Vice versa, too.

Steve Epley
04-03-2007, 08:05 PM
From time to time we have had all five-fold ministries preach to us here. I have had 3 men I believe are Apostles and more than one prophet, gifted teachers, evangelist like Phillip and of course the weakest link the pastor but one dud out of four is not too bad.

COOPER
04-03-2007, 08:17 PM
From time to time we have had all five-fold ministries preach to us here. I have had 3 men I believe are Apostles and more than one prophet, gifted teachers, evangelist like Phillip and of course the weakest link the pastor but one dud out of four is not too bad.

It was said over a UPC puplit that if anyone that is an Apostle has seen Jesus in person.



while Paul, "the apostle of the uncircumcision," usually travelled as a missionary among the Gentiles (Gal. 2:8). It was characteristic of the apostles and necessary (1) that they should have seen the Lord, and been able to testify of him and of his resurrection from personal knowledge (John 15:27; Acts 1:21, 22; 1 Cor. 9:1; Acts 22:14, 15).

(2.) They must have been immediately called to that office by Christ (Luke 6:13; Gal. 1:1).

(3.) It was essential that they should be infallibly inspired, and thus secured against all error and mistake in their public teaching, whether by word or by writing (John 14:26; 16:13; 1 Thess. 2:13).

(4.) Another qualification was the power of working miracles (Mark 16:20; Acts 2:43; 1 Cor. 12:8-11). The apostles therefore could have had no successors. They are the only authoritative teachers of the Christian doctrines. The office of an apostle ceased with its first holders. In 2 Cor. 8:23 and Phil. 2:25 the word "messenger" is the rendering of the same Greek word, elsewhere rendered "apostle."

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

COOPER
04-03-2007, 08:19 PM
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source a·pos·tle (ə-pŏs'əl) Pronunciation Key
n.

Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel.
A missionary of the early Christian Church.
A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region.
One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation.
A passionate adherent; a strong supporter.
One of the 12 members of the administrative council in the Mormon Church.

One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation.
A passionate adherent; a strong supporter.

Steve Epley
04-03-2007, 08:20 PM
It was said over a UPC puplit that if anyone that is an Apostle has seen Jesus in person.

Many things are said over a UPC pulpit you can't take to the bank. The statement is incorrect if there are no apostles then the rest of the five-fold is over also they are in the same verse. Eph. 4:11 Several years ago Elder Norris and Hicks had a written discussion on this and Hicks creamed his corn.

Coonskinner
04-03-2007, 08:25 PM
Coop discussing the fivefold ministry is like Mike Tyson discussing plastic surgery.

Coonskinner
04-03-2007, 08:25 PM
Many things are said over a UPC pulpit you can't take to the bank. The statement is incorrect if there are no apostles then the rest of the five-fold is over also they are in the same verse. Eph. 4:11 Several years ago Elder Norris and Hicks had a written discussion on this and Hicks creamed his corn.

Good post, and exactly right.

COOPER
04-03-2007, 08:37 PM
Coop discussing the fivefold ministry is like Mike Tyson discussing plastic surgery.

I do not care what you think Coon.

I make a valid argument and you try to imply I am an idiot.

Lots of respect for you oh man of God... :nah not.

You represent your society well. It's expected of your kind.

Coonskinner
04-03-2007, 08:39 PM
I do not care what you think Coon.

I make a valid argument and you try to imply I am an idiot.

Lots of respect for you oh man of God... :nah not.

You represent your society well. It's expected of your kind.

Coop, you made no valid points in this hodge podge.

You are just once more looking to justify your refusal to be a part of the Body of Christ.

Mock all you like, Bro.

You won't easily drown out that little voice that troubles you when you look into the eyes of those babies, knowing they need to be in the house of God.

COOPER
04-03-2007, 08:40 PM
Many things are said over a UPC pulpit you can't take to the bank. The statement is incorrect if there are no apostles then the rest of the five-fold is over also they are in the same verse. Eph. 4:11 Several years ago Elder Norris and Hicks had a written discussion on this and Hicks creamed his corn.

If any one claims they are Apostle so-n-so, them I will steer clear.

Too many nuts out there claiming they are of God ruining lives.

Coonskinner
04-03-2007, 08:40 PM
I do not care what you think Coon.

I make a valid argument and you try to imply I am an idiot.

Lots of respect for you oh man of God... :nah not.

You represent your society well. It's expected of your kind.

Coop, I'll take my chances on being "my kind."

COOPER
04-03-2007, 08:46 PM
Coop, you made no valid points in this hodge podge.

You are just once more looking to justify your refusal to be a part of the Body of Christ.

Mock all you like, Bro.

You won't easily drown out that little voice that troubles you when you look into the eyes of those babies, knowing they need to be in the house of God.


I refuse to a part of anything that is like you Coon. For the most part that is what UPC is and many other Oneness groups.

I will never join a group that condones your behavior toward others.

In fact this rude arrogant behavior is celebrated in the UPC.

Coonskinner
04-03-2007, 08:48 PM
I refuse to a part of anything that is like you Coon. For the most part that is what UPC is and many other Oneness groups.

I will never join a group that condones your behavior toward others.

In fact this rude arrogant behavior is celebrated in the UPC.

This from the guy who mocks and scoffs continually...

You just don't like it when someone tells you the truth.

I have reached out to you in kindness numerous times, Coop.

You in turn, scoff and mock over and over.

My words aren't so much rude as they are just plain and straightforward.

Be a man, Coop, and stop whining. Communicate without all the crying and pooching out your lip and wailing about someone being rude.

COOPER
04-03-2007, 08:49 PM
Coop, I'll take my chances on being "my kind."

What ever Coon.

Many Pastors and Speakers like your self are of the mind set that all saints are Aint's if they don't line up to your opinions.

The Mrs
04-03-2007, 08:50 PM
Coop discussing the fivefold ministry is like Mike Tyson discussing plastic surgery.

Ya know that saying...

If you ain't got nothin' nice to say, don't say nothin' at all?

I think that would apply nicely here Bro. CS. :nod

The Personal attacks and belittling need to stop.

Coonskinner
04-03-2007, 08:51 PM
What ever Coon.

Many Pastors and Speakers like your self are of the mind set that all saints are Aint's if they don't line up to your opinions.


Opinions?

I haven't said a word about standards or even anything remotely controversial.

You are getting wigged because somebody thinks you need to take your kids to church.

So you get out the old broad brush.:)

Very transparent, Coop.

COOPER
04-03-2007, 08:59 PM
This from the guy who mocks and scoffs continually...

You just don't like it when someone tells you the truth.

I have reached out to you in kindness numerous times, Coop.

You in turn, scoff and mock over and over.

My words aren't so much rude as they are just plain and straightforward.

Be a man, Coop, and stop whining. Communicate without all the crying and pooching out your lip and wailing about someone being rude.

You have not reached out Coon, you have not been kind.

In-fact chatting with you these past years only confirms that I do not need to apart of UPC nor have one of there Pastors in our families life.

It's so typical for 17 years I have heard preachers accuse saints of whining, crying, complaining acting like babes that a Pastor needs to constantly feed and change diapers.

Lazy good for nothing pew warmers. That 10 percent in a church do the most work while the other 90 percent come and enjoy their labors.

I have heard more complaining and griping from preachers and Pastors about saints than I have ever heard saints do.

Good grief Coon, come on now and smell the coffee!

Coonskinner
04-03-2007, 09:01 PM
Coop, I seriously have prayed for you and will again that you recover yourself.

Your kids deserve better.

This is going to be the last post I make to you for a while, maybe ever.

COOPER
04-03-2007, 09:07 PM
Opinions?

I haven't said a word about standards or even anything remotely controversial.

You are getting wigged because somebody thinks you need to take your kids to church.

So you get out the old broad brush.:)

Very transparent, Coop.

I was apart of one of the largest UPC districts where Billy Cole and Jack Cunningham was a house hold name. They often preached at my church.

My old Pastor was the Superintendant and often had to be a peace maker between childish acting preachers.

I have heard Jack Cunningham run down an Ex-UPC preacher over the pulpit at a district conference and scream as he called him "MORE worthless than a pile of Dung"!!!

Don't tell me I am broad brushing, the barn that houses this kind of mess is too big for a broad brush.

COOPER
04-03-2007, 09:09 PM
Coop, I seriously have prayed for you and will again that you recover yourself.

Your kids deserve better.

This is going to be the last post I make to you for a while, maybe ever.

I am sure you are shaking the dust off your feet too.:nah

COOPER
04-03-2007, 09:12 PM
And that's the way it is, April the third 2007.

This is Cooper signing off.

Good night.

Jekyll
04-03-2007, 09:17 PM
How long does this HAVE to go on...why not consolidate all of the threads that are started with "questions" into one big blog titled, "I hate the UPC"?? Then, you can complain all you want without everyone taking these threads seriously and answering them only to hear more ranting and raving?

COOP, what is it going to take to find peace in your life??

Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 09:39 PM
From time to time we have had all five-fold ministries preach to us here. I have had 3 men I believe are Apostles and more than one prophet, gifted teachers, evangelist like Phillip and of course the weakest link the pastor but one dud out of four is not too bad.

You mean just to visit and preach. Does the four or five fold ministry need to be members in one body or does it matter?

Steve Epley
04-03-2007, 09:46 PM
You mean just to visit and preach. Does the four or five fold ministry need to be members in one body or does it matter?

I doubt if any church has the five-fold ministry resident there but they may ??
I just don't know any?

Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 09:54 PM
I doubt if any church has the five-fold ministry resident there but they may ??
I just don't know any?

Are they supposed to? I can't tell by the scripture. At first it appears that they should.

Steve Epley
04-03-2007, 09:55 PM
Are they supposed to? I can't tell by the scripture. At first it appears that they should.

I think it was available to the churches as it is today.

rrford
04-03-2007, 09:57 PM
I think it was available to the churches as it is today.

Correct. But nowhere does scripture concerning the churches listed in the NT ever indicate they actually had 5 specific individuals in place in each church. The reference is to the "church-at-large" and not specific congregations.

Pressing-On
04-03-2007, 09:58 PM
I think it was available to the churches as it is today.

I just wonder if each body is supposed to be made up of all of them. Do the offices - Deacon, etc. fill those positions or are they separate?

I've always been taught that the preacher is all of those offices at different times. Not sure everyone has believed that, but some I've known have.

Steve Epley
04-03-2007, 09:59 PM
Correct. But nowhere does scripture concerning the churches listed in the NT ever indicate they actually had 5 specific individuals in place in each church. The reference is to the "church-at-large" and not specific congregations.

I think a clue is in Acts 13 it says there were prophets and teachers at Antioch now if there were prophets and teachers everywhere then why is it noted here?

rrford
04-03-2007, 10:00 PM
I think a clue is in Acts 13 it says there were prophets and teachers at Antioch now if there were prophets and teachers everywhere then why is it noted here?


Good question. I think it safe to assume that the needed ministry was made available from assembly to assembly. JMO.

mfblume
04-03-2007, 10:14 PM
Good question. I think it safe to assume that the needed ministry was made available from assembly to assembly. JMO.


I think it was not a set way in any case. Some assemblies had prophets, some did not. The ones that did not would need them sent in. But we cannot make a rule either way and say they have to be in one assembly or they are never in one assembly.

COOPER
04-04-2007, 06:53 AM
How long does this HAVE to go on...why not consolidate all of the threads that are started with "questions" into one big blog titled, "I hate the UPC"?? Then, you can complain all you want without everyone taking these threads seriously and answering them only to hear more ranting and raving?

COOP, what is it going to take to find peace in your life??

Actually I started a good look at the Five fold ministry doctrines.

But things into question.

One in particular that is UPC came and insulted me.

So getting back to the five fold ministry.................................


Do you have anything to add to Five Fold Ministry??????

Or Have you came to fuel the fire??

COOPER
04-04-2007, 06:56 AM
Question: If God gave some Apostles and the role of the Apostle contiues today as some would believe...............

Why is there not other Apostles recorded in the Bible After Paul???????

Steve Epley
04-04-2007, 07:00 AM
Question: If God gave some Apostles and the role of the Apostle contiues today as some would believe...............

Why is there not other Apostles recorded in the Bible After Paul???????

Paul names other Apostles.

COOPER
04-04-2007, 07:05 AM
Paul names other Apostles.

Who are they???

Steve Epley
04-04-2007, 07:13 AM
Barnabas-Timothy-Silvanus for a few.

COOPER
04-04-2007, 07:19 AM
Barnabas-Timothy-Silvanus for a few.
Can you post a verses?

Coonskinner
04-04-2007, 07:24 AM
Act 14:13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.


Act 14:14 [Which] when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard [of], they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

barnabas was an apostle.

Coonskinner
04-04-2007, 07:26 AM
James, the Lord's brother was an Apostle.

He was not one of the original 12.




Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Joelel
04-04-2007, 07:27 AM
My question is, how can there be a church assemblies with out the Apostles and Prophets because there is no foundation?The Apostles and Prophets are the foundation of the assemblies and Jesus the chief corner stone.We are the house of God,how can a house be built without a foundation ? The Apostles started the church assemblies and then appointed Bishops.

Tit.1
[5] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

Eph.2
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Coonskinner
04-04-2007, 07:28 AM
Another false premise blown out of the saddle.

COOPER
04-04-2007, 07:34 AM
Act 14:13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.


Act 14:14 [Which] when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard [of], they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

barnabas was an apostle.

What then Exactly is an Apostle???

Is he a missionary????

COOPER
04-04-2007, 07:36 AM
My question is, how can there be a church assemblies with out the Apostles and Prophets because there is no foundation?The Apostles and Prophets are the foundation of the assemblies and Jesus the chief corner stone.We are the house of God,how can a house be built without a foundation ? The Apostles started the church assemblies and then appointed Bishops.

Tit.1
[5] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

Eph.2
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Is the duty of an Apostle missionary????

Like a church starter and ground breaker?

COOPER
04-04-2007, 07:43 AM
Another false premise blown out of the saddle.
False Premise???

I hate your remarks Coon. I have no respect for you.

You are an offensive man.

I am learning something that I have never really looked into.

Thank you for your info.

I do not claim I knew all there is about the Apostle role.

Thats why I started this thread.

I just do not think of Barnabas As "Apostle Barnabas"

When I think Apostles I think of the Twelve.

COOPER
04-04-2007, 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by Coonskinner
Another false premise blown out of the

Five fold ministry???? Who are they at your Church?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where is the Rank and Order of the Five Fold Ministers????

Why are the Pastors recieving tithe and not the others????

Why is not this office shared as a whole????

Chan
04-04-2007, 08:21 AM
Could be, depending upon the size.I think that it is intended for each local assembly.

Those gifted to oversee several churches.I disagree. I think the apostles of Ephesians 4:11 are acutally missionaries (which, of course, means only men - while women may be working in the mission field, they can only assist the apostles much the way various women assisted Paul). Apostles go to a place, preach the gospel, establish local churches, install and train the leadership, then go on to another place.

Those with the gift and a multitude of signs and wonders, used in the prophetic word. Unfortunately there are too many non-prophet organizations. :(I think we can look to Agabus as an example of someone in the ministry of prophet, likewise the prophets in Antioch (not Phillip's daughters) who with the teachers were praying and fasting when the Holy Ghost told them to set apart Paul and Barnabas for apostolic work.

Chan
04-04-2007, 08:25 AM
I think a clue is in Acts 13 it says there were prophets and teachers at Antioch now if there were prophets and teachers everywhere then why is it noted here?It is noted there because the context refers specifically to an event that occurred in the Antioch church.

Chan
04-04-2007, 08:26 AM
James, the Lord's brother was an Apostle.

He was not one of the original 12.




Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. True, he was not one of the original 12. He also appears to have been the bishop or overseeing elder (aka pastor) of the Jerusalem church.

Chan
04-04-2007, 08:28 AM
Barnabas-Timothy-Silvanus for a few.Was Timothy an apostle or was he really a bishop (pastor) Paul placed over a particular church? The scriptures seem to suggest he was the latter.

Chan
04-04-2007, 08:28 AM
What then Exactly is an Apostle???

Is he a missionary????
I believe he is.

mfblume
04-04-2007, 08:33 AM
I think that it is intended for each local assembly.

Some assemblies cannot have this since they are not large enough. The BEST is to have them in each assembly, but that is not always possible. Bottom line is that there is no verse in the bible that says, "Each church must have each of the five-fold ministries."

I disagree. I think the apostles of Ephesians 4:11 are acutally missionaries Apostle means SENT ONES. I agree they are missionaries. But THIS sort of missionary is not the average. The apostle reaches out in uncharted areas of hte world and starts works and oversees them after they are started. That is where my point comes into play. But top say they are generally missionaries is not necessarily true.

I agree about Agabus.

Chan
04-04-2007, 08:37 AM
Some assemblies cannot have this since they are not large enough. The BEST is to have them in each assembly, but that is not always possible. Bottom line is that there is no verse in the bible that says, "Each church must have each of the five-fold ministries."I didn't say they must, I said that I think each local assembly was intended to have them (even if it happens to be the same man filling one or more of them)

Apostle means SENT ONES. I agree they are missionaries. But THIS sort of missionary is not the average. The apostle reaches out in uncharted areas of hte world and starts works and oversees them after they are started. That is where my point comes into play. But top say they are generally missionaries is not necessarily true.I think ALL missionaries are supposed to do this, though I don't think it has to be in a part of the world that is uncharted, since it seems every part of the world has been charted for at least the last 100 years.

mfblume
04-04-2007, 08:42 AM
I didn't say they must, I said that I think each local assembly was intended to have them (even if it happens to be the same man filling one or more of them)

I think ALL missionaries are supposed to do this, though I don't think it has to be in a part of the world that is uncharted, since it seems every part of the world has been charted for at least the last 100 years.


Some missionaries sent to regions are not gifted to oversee, but yet will win souls and are God-sent to these places. Again, the scriptures do not elucidate on the matter to that extent otherwise.

Chan
04-04-2007, 08:54 AM
Some missionaries sent to regions are not gifted to oversee, but yet will win souls and are God-sent to these places. Again, the scriptures do not elucidate on the matter to that extent otherwise.Then one who is gifted to oversee (this oversight is, of course, temporary) needs to be sent. Of course, all Christians are called to go into all the world with the gospel.

mfblume
04-04-2007, 08:55 AM
Then one who is gifted to oversee (this oversight is, of course, temporary)

And they are,m but not all sent are.

needs to be sent. Of course, all Christians are called to go into all the world with the gospel.


Exactly. :)

Esther
04-04-2007, 09:09 AM
If any one claims they are Apostle so-n-so, them I will steer clear.

Too many nuts out there claiming they are of God ruining lives.

But many more that are helping God.

You see the glass half empty.

Pastor Keith
04-04-2007, 09:30 AM
Where is the Rank and Order of the Five Fold Ministers????

Why are the Pastors recieving tithe and not the others????

Why is not this office shared as a whole????







What up with this?


The ranking within the church body if there is one is found in I Cor 12:28

Before we talk about the expression of the 5 fold ministry today, we should at least ponder the church in the 1st century.

It was primarily a citywide church, met in homes, led by appointed elders, who were appointed by Apostles, who were visited by prophets (Acts 11:27) and interent teachers.

This pattern more or less happened wherever the Gospel spread. Also prophets released Apostles into their ministry (Acts 13:1-2)

The giftings of the 5-Fold ministry then worked either locally within those groups of house churches that are identified by Cities, or they worked trans-locally and traveled much like the Apostle Paul did visiting the different works.

Much of the epistles were written trying to combat and qualify what these some of the false visiting ministers would teach in these meetings. Corinth, Galatia, Thessalonica each had this happen.

This was the norm.

Now in the present day, we are removed from some of that structure (sadly in my opinion), some visiting Evangelists might qualify as to be prophets but are afraid or don't realize their calling, visit the churches today along with a myrad # of teachers and exhorters.

Now for Apostles they tend to be more or less what missionaries are today, but not all missionary are Apostles and not all Apostles are missionaries.

They seem to have regional or larger vision that a local city, and lead and appoint elders and leaders in that region.

It would be great to see this realized and all these ministries function together in healthy way before Jesus comes again.

COOPER
04-04-2007, 09:54 AM
But many more that are helping God.

You see the glass half empty.
Sounds like a Fifty-Fifty chance either way.

Beware of False prophets. Use caution, do not blindly trust anyone. :grampa

COOPER
04-04-2007, 09:56 AM
The ranking within the church body if there is one is found in I Cor 12:28

Before we talk about the expression of the 5 fold ministry today, we should at least ponder the church in the 1st century.

It was primarily a citywide church, met in homes, led by appointed elders, who were appointed by Apostles, who were visited by prophets (Acts 11:27) and interent teachers.

This pattern more or less happened wherever the Gospel spread. Also prophets released Apostles into their ministry (Acts 13:1-2)

The giftings of the 5-Fold ministry then worked either locally within those groups of house churches that are identified by Cities, or they worked trans-locally and traveled much like the Apostle Paul did visiting the different works.

Much of the epistles were written trying to combat and qualify what these some of the false visiting ministers would teach in these meetings. Corinth, Galatia, Thessalonica each had this happen.

This was the norm.

Now in the present day, we are removed from some of that structure (sadly in my opinion), some visiting Evangelists might qualify as to be prophets but are afraid or don't realize their calling, visit the churches today along with a myrad # of teachers and exhorters.

Now for Apostles they tend to be more or less what missionaries are today, but not all missionary are Apostles and not all Apostles are missionaries.

They seem to have regional or larger vision that a local city, and lead and appoint elders and leaders in that region.

It would be great to see this realized and all these ministries function together in healthy way before Jesus comes again.

Thank you, interesting post.

Malvaro
04-04-2007, 10:15 AM
It was said over a UPC puplit that if anyone that is an Apostle has seen Jesus in person.

Did Paul see Jesus? (don't remember that being so) and he was called an Apostle in the scriptures....

Michlow
04-04-2007, 10:42 AM
Did Paul see Jesus? (don't remember that being so) and he was called an Apostle in the scriptures....

Um....on the road to Damascus.....duh :winkgrin

1 Cor 15

6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Joelel
04-04-2007, 11:00 AM
Is the duty of an Apostle missionary????

Like a church starter and ground breaker?

Yes

Nahum
04-04-2007, 11:01 AM
Yes


Then I'm Apostle.

Apostle Pastor Poster

COOPER
04-04-2007, 11:07 AM
Did Paul see Jesus? (don't remember that being so) and he was called an Apostle in the scriptures....
Of course he didn't, he was smote with BLINDNESS!!!:happydance

:friend

God smacked him blind with a fish.......later scales fell from eyes!!!!!:toofunny :slaphappy

Thank you:tiphat

Joelel
04-04-2007, 11:11 AM
Five fold ministry???? Who are they at your Church?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where is the Rank and Order of the Five Fold Ministers????

Why are the Pastors recieving tithe and not the others????

Why is not this office shared as a whole????

A true Apostle can fill all the five fold ministries.Many who say they are Apostles are not though and still start church assemblies.The apostles are suppose to start the assemblies and then appoint Elders and keep head athority over the assemblies.The signs of and apostle are working of miracles.The church don't operate the way it is suppose to.The people are not suppose to vote pastors in and out who they want.Then their are those who hold one or two offices.Like a Bishop must be able to teach.He is a Bishop and teacher.

Esther
04-04-2007, 11:48 AM
A friend of mine shared a conversation he had with the Lord about this subject not to terribly long ago.

He asked the Lord if the five fold ministry had an order to the importance of the ministries.

He said the yes, they were listed in order in scripture.

That would make the Apostle the highest office, and probably less hold that office. The Prophet would follow and there are more of them that Apostles, etc.

That would make the teachers the least of all but no less needed.

The one in the middle is the Pastor, and seems to be more of them than any. Although, I personally believe there are pastors holding more than one office.

Example: I believe T.W. Barnes was a Prophet as well as a Pastor and Teacher.

I believe James Kilgore is an Apostle, and Pastor, Teacher. He has started many churches out of his assembly.

I also personally believe the higher the office the more time in prayer and the Word is required. Again, that is just my opinion.

Malvaro
04-04-2007, 12:50 PM
Um....on the road to Damascus.....duh :winkgrin

1 Cor 15

6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

ummmmm.... Paul saw a great light (which as Coop said, blinded him).... he definately "heard" God but I think Coop was referring to folks who actually saw God in a "fleshly form".... while He walked the earth....

Coop, correct me if that wasn't what you were trying to say....

I seem to recall having heard/read this concept/definition before somewhere.... not in my home church, but elsewhere though....

COOPER
04-04-2007, 12:52 PM
ummmmm.... Paul saw a great light (which as Coop said, blinded him).... he definately "heard" God but I think Coop was referring to folks who actually saw God in a "fleshly form".... while He walked the earth....

Coop, correct me if that wasn't what you were trying to say....

I seem to recall having heard/read this concept/definition before somewhere.... not in my home church, but elsewhere though....

Yes I did say that, it was once said by a preacher at my old church.

Chan
04-04-2007, 01:49 PM
Um....on the road to Damascus.....duh :winkgrin

1 Cor 15

6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.There is also some question as to what Paul experienced during his time in Arabia. He appears to have been talking about himself when he said "I knew a man above 14 years ago, whether in the spirit or not I don't know, God knows...this man had been taken to the third heaven..." In the often-used communion passage, Paul said that he received it from the Lord, which suggests he received it from the Lord directly and not from teaching in a church.

Iron_Bladder
05-02-2007, 04:56 AM
Where is the Rank and Order of the Five Fold Ministers????

Why are the Pastors recieving tithe and not the others????

Why is not this office shared as a whole????







What up with this?





“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,” (Ephesians 4:11, RSV).



Some such as Cooper have claimed that Ephesians 4:11 teaches a five-fold ministry of offices within the Church. However, only four Church offices are actually mentioned here, each of which are written in the predicate accusative and are distinguished in the original Greek from the other three offices by the prepositions ‘tous men’ or ‘tous de,’ which are both translated as ‘some.’ So the final Church office which this verse lists is the combined office of ‘pastor and teacher,’ as proven by the single use of the word ‘some’ (tous de) which precedes both ‘pastor’ and teacher. This word ‘teacher’ is used again at 1st Corinthians 12:28, where it’s specifically stated as being the third office after firstly the office of apostle and secondly the prophet. Now the fact that the title of pastor is omitted from this list, shouldn’t be taken literally as implying that the teacher is more important than the pastor, for the ‘teacher’ implies ‘pastor.’

Iron_Bladder
05-03-2007, 03:16 AM
Where is the Rank and Order of the Five Fold Ministers????

Why are the Pastors recieving tithe and not the others????

Why is not this office shared as a whole????







What up with this?





“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,” (Ephesians 4:11, RSV).


kai autov edwken touv men apostolouv touv de profhtav touv de euaggelistav touv de poimenav kai didaskalouv


Some in thsi thread have claimed that Ephesians 4:11 teaches a five-fold ministry of offices within the Church. However, only four Church offices are actually mentioned here, each of which are written in the predicate accusative and are distinguished in the original Greek from the other three offices by the prepositions ‘tous men’ or ‘tous de,’ which are both translated as ‘some.’ So the final Church office which this verse lists is the combined office of ‘pastor and teacher,’ as proven by the single use of the word ‘some’ (tous de) which precedes both ‘pastor’ and teacher. This word ‘teacher’ is used again at 1st Corinthians 12:28, where it’s specifically stated as being the third office after firstly the office of apostle and secondly the prophet.

Bruce Klein
05-17-2007, 09:14 AM
The Plurality of Elders is Shown for Every Church. The Greek for 'elder' is 'πρεσβύτερος'.

“And when they had ordained them elders (4245, πρεσβύτερος) in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.” Acts 14:23

“And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.” Acts 20:17

“Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:” James 5:14

“ασθενει τις εν υμιν προσκαλεσασθω τους πρεσβυτερους της εκκλησιας και προσευξασθωσαν επ αυτον αλειψαντες αυτον ελαιω εν τω ονοματι του κυριου” James 5:14

Do you have elders in your church?

How many elders do you have?

I think you have great points Sister Cooper and Brother Blume!

Bruce Klein
05-17-2007, 09:53 AM
Hello Brother Iron Bladder,

Greek scholars have argued these points for ages. Grace Theoligical Seminary in Indiana, believes the teacher and the pastor are one office. Most Greek scholars believe in separate offices. I question the word 'office'. Normally, the scholars argue from their theological point of view. Grace Theological Seminary being Baptistic is against speaking in tongues, etc. teaching Apostles and Prophets are not for today.

All five 'offices' are in the accusative case. The predicate issue is to me questionable.

From a theological view, I believe all five are for today. All five could be functioning in a church as elders. Other Scriptures, I think, support this view.


Eph 4:11 και αυτος εδωκεν τους μεν αποστολους τους δε προφητας τους δε ευαγγελιστας τους δε ποιμενας και διδασκαλους


Eph 4:11 και And 2532 CONJ αυτος he 846 P-NSM εδωκεν gave 1325 V-AAI-3S τους some 3588 T-APM μεν 3303 PRT αποστολους apostles 652 N-APM τους some 3588 T-APM δε and 1161 CONJ προφητας prophets 4396 N-APM τους some 3588 T-APM δε and 1161 CONJ ευαγγελιστας evangelists 2099 N-APM τους some 3588 T-APM δε and 1161 CONJ ποιμενας pastors 4166 N-APM και and 2532 CONJ διδασκαλους teachers. 1320 N-APM

In Jesus,
Brother Bruce

Praxeas
05-17-2007, 02:57 PM
“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,” (Ephesians 4:11, RSV).


kai autov edwken touv men apostolouv touv de profhtav touv de euaggelistav touv de poimenav kai didaskalouv


Some in thsi thread have claimed that Ephesians 4:11 teaches a five-fold ministry of offices within the Church. However, only four Church offices are actually mentioned here, each of which are written in the predicate accusative and are distinguished in the original Greek from the other three offices by the prepositions ‘tous men’ or ‘tous de,’ which are both translated as ‘some.’ So the final Church office which this verse lists is the combined office of ‘pastor and teacher,’ as proven by the single use of the word ‘some’ (tous de) which precedes both ‘pastor’ and teacher. This word ‘teacher’ is used again at 1st Corinthians 12:28, where it’s specifically stated as being the third office after firstly the office of apostle and secondly the prophet.

Quoted from the NET bible commentary
But because the nouns are plural, it is extremely unlikely that they refer to the same group, but only that the author is linking them closely together. It is better to regard the pastors as a subset of teachers. In other words, all pastors are teachers, but not all teachers are pastors. See ExSyn 284.