Why Does God Give the Baptism of the Holy Ghost?

[EA]

Why does God give us the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

Is the gift a reward for a person's "perfect" repentance?

Is the gift given as a token of God's approval of us?

Why does God give the gift of the Holy Ghost to people who have not been baptized in Jesus' name?

How can they be qualified to receive it without baptism?

What is the purpose of Holy Ghost infilling?

[mizpeh]

It's part of the new birth

It's part of the New convenant.

It helps us to overcome the word and our flesh'
;
It's the earnest of our inheritance.

To teach us.

To give us boldness to testify about Christ.

There's probaby some things I'm missiing.

[EA]

Mizpeh, why did Holy Spirit baptism precede water baptism on the Day of Pentecost?

[KWSS1976]

Ok I know this is old news but how could Elizabeth be filled with the holyghost before pentecost. Are there 2 holyghost..... One before pentecost and one after.....

[Justin]

Ok I know this is old news but how could Elizabeth be filled with the holyghost before pentecost. Are there 2 holyghost..... One before pentecost and one after.....

It could have been a renewing? Or maybe "a taste of things to come" But there's defiantly only one Holy Ghost . :)

[MissBrattified]

I do believe repentance has to be a precursor to receiving the Holy Ghost. God isn't going to forcefully fill an unrepentant heart!

Obviously the Holy Ghost can be poured out on someone who hasn't yet been baptized--it happened in scriptural examples. However, it seems that the apostles were fairly prompt about encouraging new believers to be baptized immediately, so I think they felt it was important.

[rgcraig]

I do believe repentance has to be a precursor to receiving the Holy Ghost. God isn't going to forcefully fill an unrepentant heart!

Obviously the Holy Ghost can be poured out on someone who hasn't yet been baptized--it happened in scriptural examples. However, it seems that the apostles were fairly prompt about encouraging new believers to be baptized immediately, so I think they felt it was important.

and....wasn't that to declare to the public WHO they were following after they received the Holy Ghost?

Not so much they weren't saved until they were baptized, but to let everyone know they were saved?

[EA]

Please understand, I am not questioning the necessity of water baptism. Everyone here should already know that I am a strong water/Spirit advocate.

I am asking why God even offers such a thing as Holy Ghost baptism.

What is the purpose?

Mizpeh says the Holy Ghost is part of the new birth process.

Anyone else?

[KWSS1976]

Ok if tongues are so important and to consider it the proof that you have the holyghost if it was that important do you think that it would have been mentioned that Elizabeth or any of the other ones that were filled with the holyghost to note they spoke in tongues.. Talking about recieving the holyghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I see tongues as a language to communicate gods messege in Acts not the stuff that is heard in churches today I do not link the holyghost and tongues together I just think god blessed them in Acts to be able to get the messege across in a language that other could understand. So my answer is he gave us the baptism of the holyghost because he promised it to us.

[Ron]

and....wasn't that to declare to the public WHO they were following after they received the Holy Ghost?

Not so much they weren't saved until they were baptized, but to let everyone know they were saved?

Why does anyone need to know I am saved???
It was actually a command in the Bible.
Acts 10:48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Sounds Salvational to me.

[mizpeh]

Mizpeh, why did Holy Spirit baptism precede water baptism on the Day of Pentecost?

the disciples has already repented and been baptized.

[KWSS1976]

Not debating tongues or anything its just when one links the baptism of the holy ghost tongues aways get worked in there with it..

[mizpeh]

Please understand, I am not questioning the necessity of water baptism. Everyone here should already know that I am a strong water/Spirit advocate.

I am asking why God even offers such a thing as Holy Ghost baptism.

What is the purpose?

Mizpeh says the Holy Ghost is part of the new birth process.

Anyone else?

I offered more than that.

[Scott Hutchinson]

People that are truly repentant receive can reason the baptism of The Holy Ghost,of course there are many reasons for the need for HG baptism, according to scripture but just why does God give the Holy Ghost, to people that I am not totally sure of but I am glad He does.God does have His reasons and since I am not God I don't know all of His reasoning all I can do is read His word,and be a witness of that word.

But I feel the biblical pattern after repentance,is Spirit Baptism and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.Repentance is a starting place but spirit baptism,and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ are not options.

[Scott Hutchinson]

For one can a person be regenerated without having the Spirit of God in their lives ?
Is there a biblical difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized with The Holy Ghost.
After the ascension of Christ,His followers were not to teach and preach publicly anymore,until they were endued with power from on High.
They were commanded to wait in the upper room till the promise of The Father came to them personally.
The Baptism of The Holy Ghost seems foundational for the purpose of being a Christian witness.

[EA]

Mizpeh, why did Holy Spirit baptism precede water baptism on the Day of Pentecost?

the disciples has already repented and been baptized.

Really?

By whom?

[EA]

I offered more than that.

Yes, you did.

[EA]

Acts 1:8 (New International Version)
8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

[Scott Hutchinson]

Here is something of interest.
http://byonespirit.com/othertongues.htm

[Scott Hutchinson]

After one of interest.
http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/Holy_Spirit.htm

[EA]

The baptism in the Spirit produces godliness in us.

Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

But the fruit (end-result, culmination) of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Check this out.
http://www.isaiah58.com/

[Sam]

Mizpeh, why did Holy Spirit baptism precede water baptism on the Day of Pentecost?

Why do you think the Holy Ghost Baptism preceded water baptism on the Day of Pentecost?

The Holy Ghost Baptism was poured out on 120 disciples of Jesus. Most, if not all of them, would have already been baptized as disciples of John the Baptist or disciples of Jesus.

[Sam]

Ok I know this is old news but how could Elizabeth be filled with the holyghost before pentecost. Are there 2 holyghost..... One before pentecost and one after.....

There is only one Holy Ghost.
God is a Spirit.
Folks in the Old Testament were filled with the Holy Ghost. They were moved on by the Holy Ghost. They were used by the Holy Ghost. They were equipped and empowered by the Holy Ghost. God was active in and among them as the Holy Ghost.
The difference with the New Testament after Jesus ascended to the Father is that:
In the Old Testament the empowering or filling of the Holy Ghost was for those who served God as prophets, leaders, artisans, craftsmen, etc but not promised to everyone. In the NT, the promise is to all believers.
Also, these experiences in the Old Testament seem to be limited to those of Israel while in the New Testament the promise is for Jews and Gentiles.
Speaking with tongues is not recorded in the Old Testament whereas in the New Testament when folks were baptized in the Spirit some time it is recorded that they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

[KWSS1976]

Sam do you believe that they were filled with the holyghost and god gave them the ability to speak in another language (i.e tongues) to spread the gospel.. in the book of Acts

[Sam]

Really?

By whom?

Some were followers of John the Baptist before they followed Jesus so they had been baptized by John. Others were disciples of Jesus so we assume they were baptized when they joined up with Him.

[MissBrattified]

and....wasn't that to declare to the public WHO they were following after they received the Holy Ghost?

Not so much they weren't saved until they were baptized, but to let everyone know they were saved?

Ummmm...no...I don't think baptism is just an announcement. Is that what you believe? I believe baptism is for the remission of sins. Past, present and future.

And I firmly believe that it matters HOW you are baptized, else John's disciples would not have needed to be re-baptized.

There's one scripture that says if you believe, your sins are remitted, and then in another place, Philip told the eunuch he could be baptized IF he believed, and AFTER the eunuch had confessed his believe that Jesus was the Son of God, Philip baptized him. I don't see anywhere in Acts where the apostles separated repentance and baptism as part of salvation. They always "filled in the missing pieces of the puzzle. If someone had repented, they baptized them, and prayed for them to receive the Holy Ghost. If they had repented and been baptized, they prayed for them to receive the Holy Ghost. If they hadn't done anything, they tried to get them to turn their hearts toward Christ (first) as believers. If they had repented, and received the Holy Ghost, they led them to baptism.

I am a firm "3-stepper." I believe a person must repent of their sins, be filled with the Holy Ghost, and be baptized in Jesus' name in order to be saved. I don't think it matters whether you're baptized first or get the Holy Ghost first, but I think scriptural instruction and scriptural example shows repeatedly these three things working together to convert.

Why would we want to do things any differently than the apostles?

One of the issues I have with being too accepting of trinitarian doctrine as being just another version of what we believe, is that then there seems to be no recourse to lead them to a more excellent way. YES, they are believers, YES, they have repented, and YES they are disciples, but I firmly believe if Peter was speaking to one of these repentant, believing disciples, he would say, "What hinders you from being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus?" And then he would lay hands on them and pray for the Holy Ghost to fall on them (if it hasn't already).

When we are so afraid of offending other believers/disciples that we feel we can't lead them into a better way, then something is WRONG.

Of course, I don't read where any of those disciples ever answered back and said, "Peter, what are you saying? Are you saying we aren't saved because we only repented? Are you saying we have to do more or we'll be lost?"

If they had asked those questions, what would the apostles have answered?

[Sam]

Sam do you believe that they were filled with the holyghost and god gave them the ability to speak in another language (i.e tongues) to spread the gospel.. in the book of Acts

No.

On the Day of Pentecost about 120 people were baptized in the Spirit and spoke with tongues. Some of the languages were understood by those around them. Then Peter stood and preached to them all in a language all could understand.

After the Samaritans were saved and baptized in water in Acts chapter 8, the Jerusalem church sent Peter and John to minister the Holy Spirit Baptism to them. When they spoke with tongues, there would be nobody there to preach to.

Same with those of the household of Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. Peter preached to them in a language they understood. They believed what Peter preached and suddenly they began to speak with tongues as they were baptized in the Spirit. Again, there was nobody to preach to in tongues.

In Acts 19 when Paul found some disciples there and asked if they had received the Holy Spirit. They obviously understood him and he understood them. When they received the Holy Ghost Baptism later when he laid hands on them the record says they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Again, there was no need of preaching in tongues.

From examples in the Book of Acts, the Holy Ghost Baptism is seen as an experience available to all who have been converted. It is some times recorded that folks spoke with tongues after they received the experience and some times tongues are not mentioned. Based on the records of speaking with tongues in the Book of Acts, some have concluded that the Holy Ghost Baptism is always accompanied with speaking with tongues and others have not reached that conclusion.

[MissBrattified]

The baptism in the Spirit produces godliness in us.

Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

But the fruit (end-result, culmination) of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Acts 1:8 (New International Version)
8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

My thoughts, too. Also, doesn't it say somewhere that the Holy Ghost is the power of the resurrection or something like that? I can't remember the exact quote, but I've heard it preached that if you don't have the Holy Ghost, you will not be resurrected.

[SDG]

I see no record that the eunuch spoke in tongues in Acts 8.

[Sam]

My thoughts, too. Also, doesn't it say somewhere that the Holy Ghost is the power of the resurrection or something like that? I can't remember the exact quote, but I've heard it preached that if you don't have the Holy Ghost, you will not be resurrected.

I think you are referring to
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

There are differences of opinion on here and among Christians as to whether the Holy Ghost Baptism is the same experience as the birth of the Spirit.

[MissBrattified]

I see no record that the eunuch spoke in tongues in Acts 8.

No, nor does it say that he was filled with the Holy Ghost. :) We don't know what happened to the eunuch, except that he "went on his way rejoicing."

I'm not saying that he didn't receive the Holy Ghost, I'm just saying you can't say that he did, without tongues, because the scripture doesn't say one way or the other. What is silent for me, is just as silent for you.

[MissBrattified]

I think you are referring to
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

Yes, that's it! Thank you!!!!

[SDG]

No, nor does it say that he was filled with the Holy Ghost. :) We don't know what happened to the eunuch, except that he "went on his way rejoicing."

I'm not saying that he didn't receive the Holy Ghost, I'm just saying you can't say that he did, without tongues, because the scripture doesn't say one way or the other. What is silent for me, is just as silent for you.

Yet you alluded to a pattern of conversion in Acts ... this pattern being ... repentance, water baptism, tongues .... only is cited in 3 instances of conversions ... not all ... Paul's, jailer's, eunuch's, 3000, etc.

This does not a pattern make, IMO.

[MissBrattified]

Yet you alluded to a pattern of conversion in Acts ... this pattern being ... repentance, water baptism, tongues .... only is cited in 3 instances of conversions ... not all ... Paul's, jailer's, eunuch's, 3000, etc.

This does not a pattern make, IMO.

Well, IMO, it does. :D

I didn't say the pattern was repentance, baptism and tongues, btw--I said "repentance, baptism and being filled with the Holy Ghost."

[EA]

As an added conversation piece, let me ask this...

MissBrattified, you and I believe that repentance, baptism and Holy Ghost infilling are essential to the New Birth. Can we say that we are commanded to recieve the Holy Ghost?

[SDG]

Well, IMO, it does. :D

I didn't say the pattern was repentance, baptism and tongues, btw--I said "repentance, baptism and being filled with the Holy Ghost."

So one can be filled with the Holy Ghost and not speak in tongues?

[MissBrattified]

btw, Paul was baptized after receiving the Holy Ghost...how does that not fit into the pattern I mentioned?

[Sam]

I see no record that the eunuch spoke in tongues in Acts 8.

No, tongues are not mentioned there. He did have a conversion (born again) experience or else Philip would not have baptized him according to the way I understand verses 36-37

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord fell upon the Eunuch and the angel of the Lord snatched Philip away, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

A couple of things are not mentioned here.
It does not say how Philip baptized the eunuch but we know from verses 12 and 16 that Philip baptized in Jesus name. We also assume that when the Spirit fell upon the eunuch that he spoke with tongues.

[MissBrattified]

So one can be filled with the Holy Ghost and not speak in tongues?

I believe the Holy Ghost is working in the lives of believers from the moment they repent, but NO, they are not baptized with the Holy Ghost until they are baptized, and I believe speaking in other tongues is evidence of that baptism.

IF people are filled with the Holy Ghost when they believe or repent, then why did the apostles pray for believers to be filled?

[KWSS1976]

Ok I am just asking how come other religions do not teach this like most baptist. I know they read it they just cannot skip over it so what is there view on it and why would there view be wrong appanrently they do not see it as upc does. I am just asking because I am just wondering how something so important can be left out of most religions.. I just use the baptist because most I know do not practice speaking in tongues...

[Jack Shephard]

I think most W&S doctrine people can say it is a command, but IS it actually a command? I don't think so-I know you didn't ask me per se. In Acts Peter said Repent and be baptized and then you will receive the HG. The command was in the repentance and baptism, the HGB was a by product of them obeying that part of the sermon. That part of the sermon was a by product of their salvation (receiving Christ) and that was a by product of the Message--death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

[EA]

As an added conversation piece, let me ask this...

MissBrattified, you and I believe that repentance, baptism and Holy Ghost infilling are essential to the New Birth. Can we say that we are commanded to recieve the Holy Ghost?

Peter said "repent and be baptized" in response to a specific question, "what shall we do?"

"Repent and be baptized" seem to be things we do.

Is Holy Ghost infilling something we do?

Repent and be baptized = my responsibility.
and ye shall receive = God's responsibility

Am I wrong?

There seems to be two commands and a promise.

Are there other scriptures that command us to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

[SDG]

I believe the Holy Ghost is working in the lives of believers from the moment they repent, but NO, they are not baptized with the Holy Ghost until they are baptized, and I believe speaking in other tongues is evidence of that baptism.

IF people are filled with the Holy Ghost when they believe or repent, then why did the apostles pray for believers to be filled?

You believe they are baptized by God's Spirit into the Church or body of Christ only after a properly administered baptism?

This sounds like what the Paedobaptists believe ... if memory serves.

This, what you have said, does not seem to coincide with what happened to Cornelius and those in his home in Acts 10.

Tongues then baptized.

[Jack Shephard]

:highfive:yourock

Peter said "repent and be baptized" in response to a specific question, "what shall we do?"

"Repent and be baptized" seem to be things we do.

Is Holy Ghost infilling something we do?

Repent and be baptized = my responsibility.
and ye shall receive = God's responsibility

Am I wrong?

There seems to be two commands and a promise.

Are there other scriptures that command us to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

[MissBrattified]

As an added conversation piece, let me ask this...

MissBrattified, you and I believe that repentance, baptism and Holy Ghost infilling are essential to the New Birth. Can we say that we are commanded to recieve the Holy Ghost?

I don't know. The Bible says its a promise, a gift. I'm surprised when people don't receive the Holy Ghost. The biblical examples don't seem to leave anyone out or anyone at the altar frustrated because they haven't received the Holy Ghost--it leads me to believe that:

1. People are seeking signs instead of God (tongues), which has corrupted the authenticity of the process, and,
2. We are lacking the power of the first church.

Although, I know that there are a couple of places where people "tarried" until the Holy Ghost fell upon them. We can wonder and suppose and conjecture, would God have allowed them to be lost if they had all died before the Holy Ghost fell? And does that mean the Holy Ghost isn't essential? I believe God is more faithful than that.

I don't have all the answers. My husband didn't receive the Holy Ghost until well after he had been baptized, at home, by himself. Would I go so far as to say he would have been lost between baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost? I don't know. I think God is a just God, and judges people appropriately, even outside His own lines. He'll have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, but in the meantime, we should be following His commandments and the examples of the apostles to the best of our ability.

I don't believe we should look in the Bible and find loopholes for those who haven't received the Holy Ghost or been baptized, but rather, try to find out how we are to reach OUT to those who haven't received the Holy Ghost or been baptized.

[Jack Shephard]

Anglin, we know by Acts 29 that it is a promise. It doesn't say it is a command.

[Jack Shephard]

Jesus did give commandments to his disciples, but the Bible says in Acts 1:2 that it was through the HG, but doesn't say it is commanded that they receive the HG or others should. Plus how can we "do" something to get something that is out of our hands? We do our part of repenting and baptism and God should stick to His word and pay up on the HGB, IMO.

[EA]

Peter said "repent and be baptized" in response to a specific question, "what shall we do?"

"Repent and be baptized" seem to be things we do.

Is Holy Ghost infilling something we do?

Repent and be baptized = my responsibility.
and ye shall receive = God's responsibility

Am I wrong?

There seems to be two commands and a promise.

Are there other scriptures that command us to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

:highfive:yourock

Why does God promise the Holy Ghost to his followers? Would you one steppers please tell me what you believe the purpose of the Holy Ghost baptism is?

[MissBrattified]

You believe they are baptized by God's Spirit into the Church or body of Christ only after a properly administered baptism?

This sounds like what the Paedobaptists believe ... if memory serves.

This, what you have said, does not seem to coincide with what happened to Cornelius and those in his home in Acts 10.

Tongues then baptized.

Not at all. I already stated that scriptural examples indicate the order doesn't matter.

When I said "baptized" in my previous post, I was referring to Holy Ghost baptism, not water baptism.

[Jack Shephard]

I don't know. The Bible says its a promise, a gift. I'm surprised when people don't receive the Holy Ghost. The biblical examples don't seem to leave anyone out or anyone at the altar frustrated because they haven't received the Holy Ghost--it leads me to believe that:

1. People are seeking signs instead of God (tongues), which has corrupted the authenticity of the process, and,2. We are lacking the power of the first church.
Although, I know that there are a couple of places where people "tarried" until the Holy Ghost fell upon them. We can wonder and suppose and conjecture, would God have allowed them to be lost if they had all died before the Holy Ghost fell? And does that mean the Holy Ghost isn't essential? I believe God is more faithful than that.

I don't have all the answers. My husband didn't receive the Holy Ghost until well after he had been baptized, at home, by himself. Would I go so far as to say he would have been lost between baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost? I don't know. I think God is a just God, and judges people appropriately, even outside His own lines. He'll have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, but in the meantime, we should be following His commandments and the examples of the apostles to the best of our ability.

I don't believe we should look in the Bible and find loopholes for those who haven't received the Holy Ghost or been baptized, but rather, try to find out how we are to reach OUT to those who haven't received the Holy Ghost or been baptized.

I don't agree totally with both these things. First tongues are a sign to the unbeliever the Bible says so looking for a sign is not a bad thing, perhaps they are looking for a different sign. Second is the power comes from the same source. They had the same HG we do, but I believe that perhaps they were more sensitive to it. When God fills us with the HG that is all the power we will get, IMO. However the closer we continue to get to Him does the power work more. Kinda like the possitive side and a negative side of a battery. The negative side has all the power it will get but when combined with the possitive side the power increasesm but not cause the negative side gained power, but because it combined with something of similar or greater power.

[Jack Shephard]

Why does God promise the Holy Ghost to his followers? Would you one steppers please tell me what you believe the purpose of the Holy Ghost baptism is?

I believe that it is the keeper that we need to make it through the rest of our lives. After the salvation the process of living a life for Him begins and we need the HG to keep us on track and to reach deeper in Him. Also it is a sign to the unbeliever that God is real, powerful, and in the occasion of tongues with interpretaion it is a sign the He still does speak to us today

[EA]

I don't know. The Bible says its a promise, a gift. I'm surprised when people don't receive the Holy Ghost. The biblical examples don't seem to leave anyone out or anyone at the altar frustrated because they haven't received the Holy Ghost--it leads me to believe that:

1. People are seeking signs instead of God (tongues), which has corrupted the authenticity of the process, and,
2. We are lacking the power of the first church.

Although, I know that there are a couple of places where people "tarried" until the Holy Ghost fell upon them. We can wonder and suppose and conjecture, would God have allowed them to be lost if they had all died before the Holy Ghost fell? And does that mean the Holy Ghost isn't essential? I believe God is more faithful than that.

I don't have all the answers. My husband didn't receive the Holy Ghost until well after he had been baptized, at home, by himself. Would I go so far as to say he would have been lost between baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost? I don't know. I think God is a just God, and judges people appropriately, even outside His own lines. He'll have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, but in the meantime, we should be following His commandments and the examples of the apostles to the best of our ability.

I don't believe we should look in the Bible and find loopholes for those who haven't received the Holy Ghost or been baptized, but rather, try to find out how we are to reach OUT to those who haven't received the Holy Ghost or been baptized.

I agree. I am surprised at the efforts within Pentecostal churches to minimize the importance of Holy Ghost baptism. That experience is our identifier.

The biblical model Peter preached is as follows.

Early Part of Acts 2 = Strong Gospel preaching that led to conviction and an inner questioning as to how to respond to what Jesus did for them.

2:37 "What shall we do?"

Good preaching always answers this question, The Gospel message is meaningless unless it is responded to PROPERLY. Peter was very specific in his preaching to them.

2:38 Two commands: "Repent and be baptized." These commands were given after their questioning faith found a voice. Peter went so far as to give their responses salvational implications when he said "for the remission of sins."

2:38b "And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Promise, promise, promise. It is a guarantee. It will happen. Why would anyone doubt it? Minimize it? Circumvent it? Quench it?

2:39 "The promise is unto you"


Two commands and a promise. God does not lie.

[MissBrattified]

I don't agree totally with both these things. First tongues are a sign to the unbeliever the Bible says so looking for a sign is not a bad thing, perhaps they are looking for a different sign. Second is the power comes from the same source. They had the same HG we do, but I believe that perhaps they were more sensitive to it. When God fills us with the HG that is all the power we will get, IMO. However the closer we continue to get to Him does the power work more. Kinda like the possitive side and a negative side of a battery. The negative side has all the power it will get but when combined with the possitive side the power increasesm but not cause the negative side gained power, but because it combined with something of similar or greater power.

Those are just my thoughts, I don't know why so many people seem to struggle receiving the Holy Ghost.

I agree with your comment that perhaps they were more sensitive to the power of the Holy Ghost--I've heard more than one missionary say that it is easier for people to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost in other countries, so maybe it's just our skepticism, cynicism or familiarity with the process. Regardless, something is different, but I don't think we should try to find loopholes to excuse the differences, but rather something that will help us eliminate the differences (between the NT church/present day church).

[Jack Shephard]

You are right it is an identifier, but truth is that someone doesn't have to be that spiritual to speak in tongues (pray in the HG). They must know how to get to that point.

You say it is a guarantee ( I agree that it is as long as one seeks it) but what would you say to this, a man that is a personal friend of mine has been in Pentecost for over 40 years. Has not received the HG but goes to the altar every service and seeks with everything he has and nothing. I know how I feel but want your opinion cause I respect you so much

[Jack Shephard]

There are many differences though...Cars, money, vehicles, etc. Puff Daddy and Biggy Smalls said it best, "Mo' money mo' problems"

[Sam]

Yet you alluded to a pattern of conversion in Acts ... this pattern being ... repentance, water baptism, tongues .... only is cited in 3 instances of conversions ... not all ... Paul's, jailer's, eunuch's, 3000, etc.

This does not a pattern make, IMO.

Dan, at one time you had a chart of the responses to the Gospel as recorded in the Book of Acts. I think there were 21 records of how people responded. If you can find that, why don't you post it here?

[EA]

You are right it is an identifier, but truth is that someone doesn't have to be that spiritual to speak in tongues (pray in the HG). They must know how to get to that point.

You say it is a guarantee ( I agree that it is as long as one seeks it) but what would you say to this, a man that is a personal friend of mine has been in Pentecost for over 40 years. Has not received the HG but goes to the altar every service and seeks with everything he has and nothing. I know how I feel but want your opinion cause I respect you so much

I guess the best question is "did Peter lie?" "And ye shall receive" seems rather clear to me.

Consider this passage from Paul in I Thessalonians 5:19

"Quench not the Spirit."

That word quench is used in the same way we would think of putting out a fire.

Why do some people not receive? They quench the Spirit.

Why do some people not exhibit the fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22-23 mentions? They quench the Spirit.

Their flesh refuses to submit to the Spirit's work.

[Jack Shephard]

No he didn't lie, but I think that he just made a blanket statement and that some people have to tarry for it and some don't. No matter the reasons why someone doesn't get it the Promise is promised to them too.

[Sam]

I think most W&S doctrine people can say it is a command, but IS it actually a command? I don't think so-I know you didn't ask me per se. In Acts Peter said Repent and be baptized and then you will receive the HG. The command was in the repentance and baptism, the HGB was a by product of them obeying that part of the sermon. That part of the sermon was a by product of their salvation (receiving Christ) and that was a by product of the Message--death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Acts 2:38 contains two commands and one promise:

Command number 1: repent

Command number 2: be baptized in water

Promise number 1: you shall receive the promised gift of the Holy Spirit

Often in the record of the Book of Acts, we find that water baptism is mentioned in connection with conversion and some times the Holy Ghost baptism is mentioned.

[EA]

No he didn't lie, but I think that he just made a blanket statement and that some people have to tarry for it and some don't. No matter the reasons why someone doesn't get it the Promise is promised to them too.

Justin, it's not because God is a liar, right? It's not because Peter was mistaken, right?

So what is the problem? The problem is human willingness. The problem is our presentation of what, exactly, the purpose of Holy Ghost baptism is.

[KWSS1976]

That just it. It is a promise for everyone not just pentecostals so do you think the baptist or methodist do not get this promise just because they do not speak in tongues...God promised it to all...No praying, No tarrying, No seeking. No one in the bible every seeked for the holyghost like they do these days.

[Sam]

No he didn't lie, but I think that he just made a blanket statement and that some people have to tarry for it and some don't. No matter the reasons why someone doesn't get it the Promise is promised to them too.

The only people who were told to "tarry" (wait) for the Holy Ghost baptism were the disciples after the resurrection and prior to the Day of Pentecost. Scripture for this is Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:4. There were over 500 believers who saw Jesus after His resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6) and about 120 of them (Acts 1:15) waited in Jerusalem for the promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit. So about one fourth of the early believers were baptized in the Spirit.

[EA]

That just it. It is a promise for everyone not just pentecostals so do you think the baptist or methodist do not get this promise just because they do not speak in tongues...God promised it to all...No praying, No tarrying, No seeking. No one in the bible every seeked for the holyghost like they do these days.

Friend, I have heard estimations of 700 billion people in the world who claim to have received the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues. Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians. Nearly every branch of Christendom is experiencing Holy Ghost baptism so I don't really see your point.

Funny thing is that while many of us are denying the necessity of the experience, others are hungry for it, and laying hold of God's promise. If we are not careful God will bypass us, and raise up a new generation who will preach truth.

[Sam]

...
2:38b "And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Promise, promise, promise. It is a guarantee. It will happen. Why would anyone doubt it? Minimize it? Circumvent it? Quench it?

2:39 "The promise is unto you"


Two commands and a promise. God does not lie.

Mark 16:18 Jesus promises that one of the signs that would follow believers is that they "shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." This too is a promise but it does not always happen. Some times it happens. Some times it happens later. And some times recovery does not happen in this lifetime.

[Sam]

Friend, I have heard estimations of 700 billion people in the world who claim to have received the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues. Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians. Nearly every branch of Christendom is experiencing Holy Ghost baptism so I don't really see your point.

Funny thing is that while many of us are denying the necessity of the experience, others are hungry for it, and laying hold of God's promise. If we are not careful God will bypass us, and raise up a new generation who will preach truth.

I had heard the figure of 500 million people who claim to be Pentecostal or Charismatic. Not all who claim to be Pentecostal or Charismatic have personally spoken with tongues. They consider themselves Pentecostal or Charismatic because they believe in speaking with tongues.

[EA]

Mark 16:18 Jesus promises that one of the signs that would follow believers is that they "shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." This too is a promise but it does not always happen. Some times it happens. Some times it happens later. And some times recovery does not happen in this lifetime.

Peter's promise is more specific.


Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

He was not issuing a generic statement. It was a specific message for EVERYONE.

[EA]

I had heard the figure of 500 million people who claim to be Pentecostal or Charismatic. Not all who claim to be Pentecostal or Charismatic have personally spoken with tongues. They consider themselves Pentecostal or Charismatic because they believe in speaking with tongues.

No, I remember reading an article on glossolalia, and it claimed 700 billion had experienced it.

[Sam]

The only people who were told to "tarry" (wait) for the Holy Ghost baptism were the disciples after the resurrection and prior to the Day of Pentecost. Scripture for this is Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:4. There were over 500 believers who saw Jesus after His resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6) and about 120 of them (Acts 1:15) waited in Jerusalem for the promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit. So about one fourth of the early believers were baptized in the Spirit.

About one fourth of the early church waited/tarried until the Day of Pentecost and then received the Holy Ghost Baptism.
There is no record about the other 380 disciples as to whether or not they received the Holy Ghost Baptism.

We don't read about anyone else being told to wait/tarry.

In Samaria and at Ephesus the Holy Ghost baptism happened after hands were laid on people. Acts 8:17-18; 19:6.

The gentiles in Caesarea received the Holy Ghost baptism while Peter preached. Acts 10:44

[KWSS1976]

I will use my mother for instance goes to a baptist chuch has never spoke in tongues probley never will. So is God breaking his promise to her because she will not recieve the holyghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.. All I

[Sam]

I will use my mother for instance goes to a baptist chuch has never spoke in tongues probley never will. So is God breaking his promise to her because she will not recieve the holyghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.. All I

I would not say God is breaking His promise to her.
The Holy Ghost Baptism is a promise.
Promises need to be claimed.
You mother may not believe that the Holy Ghost Baptism is a promise to believers and therefore would not ask for that experience.
There are lots of Christians who do not believe in what we call the Holy Ghost Baptism or the Pentecostal Experience. There are lots of Christians who do believe in that experience but have not personally received it.

[Jack Shephard]

Justin, it's not because God is a liar, right? It's not because Peter was mistaken, right?

So what is the problem? The problem is human willingness. The problem is our presentation of what, exactly, the purpose of Holy Ghost baptism is.

Neither, that is not what I am saying. When I said he made a blanket statement he did. If you go through and repent and baptized then you will receive the HG cause God is a man of his word. Peter was not out of line for the blanket statement. Neither God nor Peter lied

[Jack Shephard]

The only people who were told to "tarry" (wait) for the Holy Ghost baptism were the disciples after the resurrection and prior to the Day of Pentecost. Scripture for this is Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:4. There were over 500 believers who saw Jesus after His resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6) and about 120 of them (Acts 1:15) waited in Jerusalem for the promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit. So about one fourth of the early believers were baptized in the Spirit.

Then how come you think God holds back on the HGB for some people. I know that my friend will get it and might have in the past few months cause i have not contacted him that often lately, but God is going to make good on His promise. But keep in mind I believe that the spirit begins to enter at repentance and the HG is a finishing of the filling so to say.

[Sam]

Then how come you think God holds back on the HGB for some people. I know that my friend will get it and might have in the past few months cause i have not contacted him that often lately, but God is going to make good on His promise. But keep in mind I believe that the spirit begins to enter at repentance and the HG is a finishing of the filling so to say.

I believe that whenever a person sincerely turns to God, God comes into that person's heart as the Holy Spirit. In other words, when a person prays, Lord come into my heart, Jesus does come in as the Holy Spirit. This is conversion or the birth of the Spirit. Conversion is not the final work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life. We are exhorted to "be filled with the Spirit" in Ehesians 5:18. This is some times paraphrased as "be ongoingly filled with the Spirit" or "keep getting filled with the Spirit." There are many fillings after salvation. Some times a filling is called an empowering of the Spirit. Some times a filling is called the Holy Ghost Baptism.

[Jack Shephard]

I believe that whenever a person sincerely turns to God, God comes into that person's heart as the Holy Spirit. In other words, when a person prays, Lord come into my heart, Jesus does come in as the Holy Spirit. This is conversion or the birth of the Spirit. Conversion is not the final work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life. We are exhorted to "be filled with the Spirit" in Ehesians 5:18. This is some times paraphrased as "be ongoingly filled with the Spirit" or "keep getting filled with the Spirit." There are many fillings after salvation. Some times a filling is called an empowering of the Spirit. Some times a filling is called the Holy Ghost Baptism.

I agree with this for I am a 1 stepper. I was curious if you thought differently and or why you think my friend has not "broke through"

[TRFrance]

No, nor does it say that he was filled with the Holy Ghost. :) We don't know what happened to the eunuch, except that he "went on his way rejoicing."

I'm not saying that he didn't receive the Holy Ghost, I'm just saying you can't say that he did, without tongues, because the scripture doesn't say one way or the other. What is silent for me, is just as silent for you.

Well said.

Thank you. We dont know for sure that the eunuch got filled with the Holy Ghost, so we cant say for sure he spoke in tongues or not.

Similarly, the bible discusses Paul's conversion, but it doesnt say he spoke in tongues when he got the holy Ghost, because it doesnt describe the specific moment he got the Holy Ghost -- it just told us Ananaias went over there to pray for him to receive his sight, and receive the Holy Ghost.

Similarly, that same passage doesnt even say that Paul got water- baptized that day, although one might reasonably assume that he probably did. The fact is, much of the details of people receiving the Holy Ghost (or even being baptized) are not described in the book of Acts. So those claiming that "there are instance of people who got the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues in the book of Acts" are trying ot make an "argument from silence". There are only 4 instances that specifically describle people receiving the Holy Ghost, (in Acts 2,8,19, &19). In three of those instances it specifically said they spoke in tongues, and in one (Acts 8) it seems likely they did, although it's not specifically stated. (It's apparent that Simon saw some kind of sign when the Samaritans received the HG, since Simon offered the apostles money for the ability to reproduce what he had just seen!)

But there are multiple other incidents that speak of people becoming believers, where their infilling of the Holy Ghost is not described in the text (One such instance would be the [Acts 18] example of Apollos being explained the gospel of Jesus, accepting it, and later becoming a strident preacher of this gospel. It's more than reasonable to assume that Apollos received the holy Ghost, but it's not described in this passage. So it would be a false argument to use his case, or similar ones, as evidence to claim that a person might NOT speak in tongues when they get the Holy Ghost. That would be an argument based not on evidence, but on absence of evidence. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[TRFrance]

Friend, I have heard estimations of 700 billion people in the world who claim to have received the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues. Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians. Nearly every branch of Christendom is experiencing Holy Ghost baptism so I don't really see your point.

Funny thing is that while many of us are denying the necessity of the experience, others are hungry for it, and laying hold of God's promise. If we are not careful God will bypass us, and raise up a new generation who will preach truth.

No, I remember reading an article on glossolalia, and it claimed 700 billion had experienced it.

I'm guesssing you mean million, not billion, since there are only 6.7 billion people on earth. (?)

[Hoovie]

I'm guesssing you mean million, not billion, since there are only 6.7 billion people on earth. (?)

Right. The numbers touted at the turn of the century were 500 million, then in 2005 at the Azusa St Centennial they said 600 million and recently I read somewhere 700 million.

[SDG]

Once again TR misses the forest from the trees.

We all accept that silence does not benefit either side in this long standing debate ...

but was is normative can be clearly seen in Scripture....

No one can deny that believers repent ... normative
No one can deny that believers are baptized .... normative

No one can deny that our new birth is being born from above ... or by the Spirit of God ... which is the only reference found in John 3 ... as there are no indications Jesus spoke of water baptism.

No one denies a believer is filled by the Holy Spirit.

What you cannot demonstrate through the 21 conversions in Acts that each one spoke in tongues ... or that each infilling was initially evidenced through tongues.

There is no normative pattern ... other than 3 instances that also included magnifying God and prophecy ... which are not salvific in the heretical and false paradigm you espouse.

I will find repentance ... baptism and a Spirit-filled believer throughout Scripture ... Gospels, Acts, epistles ...

Yet you still hang on 3 verses to establish that every believer must talk in tongues to prove they are filled with the promise of the Holy Ghost and may go as far as to say if one does not speak in tongues one is hell-bound.

Tongue talking .... as a necessary sign to prove salvation ... a normative experience for every believer in all instances... NOPE ... a futile attempt.

It's a hoax ... we were taught ... and many an Apostolic preacher will vouch for it ....that every conversion in Acts was evidenced with tongues ... and that's a lie.

It's a real, biblical experience ... but adding to the Word has serious consequences and I fear you are.

[Hoovie]

Speaking in tongues IS normative for believers in Pentecostal churches.

However the same cannot be said about believers in Baptist churches and Lutheran churches. The Mennonite church I was a part of speaking in tongues was almost unheard of.

Imagine that - diversity in the body of Christ.

[TRFrance]

Once again TR misses the forest from the trees.

We all accept that silence does not benefit either side in this long standing debate ...

but was is normative can be clearly seen in Scripture....

No one can deny that believers repent ... normative
No one can deny that believers are baptized .... normative

No one can deny that our new birth is being born from above ... or by the Spirit of God ... which is the only reference found in John 3 ... as there are no indications Jesus spoke of water baptism.

No one denies a believer is filled by the Holy Spirit.

What you cannot demonstrate through the 21 conversions in Acts that each one spoke in tongues ... or that each infilling was initially evidenced through tongues.

There is no normative pattern ... other than 3 instances that also included magnifying God and prophecy ... which are not salvific in the heretical and false paradigm you espouse.

I will find repentance ... baptism and a Spirit-filled believer throughout Scripture ... Gospels, Acts, epistles ...

Yet you still hang on 3 verses to establish that every believer must talk in tongues to prove they are filled with the promise of the Holy Ghost and may go as far as to say if one does not speak in tongues one is hell-bound.

Tongue talking .... as a necessary sign to prove salvation ... a normative experience for every believer in all instances... NOPE ... a futile attempt.

It's a hoax ... we were taught ... and many an Apostolic preacher will vouch for it ....that every conversion in Acts was evidenced with tongues ... and that's a lie.

It's a real, biblical experience ... but adding to the Word has serious consequences and I fear you are.

I'm hearing the same tired recycled arguments from you.
Same animal, dressed in different clothes.

I wont even bother to respond much further on this.
In the end, you wont see what you don't want to see anyway, so I'll just save the time and energy.

Maybe someone else might want to get into it further, but I'm done here.

Meanwhile, have a nice night, DA.

[SDG]

I'm hearing the same tired recycled arguments from you.
Same animal, dressed in different clothes.

I wont even bother to respond much further on this.
In the end, you wont see what you don't want to see anyway, so I'll just save the time and energy.

Maybe someone else might want to get into it further, but I'm done here.

Meanwhile, have a nice night, DA.

Okay ... I'll give you an out ... show me half of the conversions resulted in tongues. A quarter?

You don't have BIBLE. You're out of the Book.

TR, truth is ... you believe that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost, correct?

And that one is not saved without receiving the Holy Ghost, right?

Are you any more Apostolic than an extrabiblical faithful Catholic?

[KWSS1976]

My deal I guess is why does the petecostals practice this and the majority of the others do not they are reading the same thing as the petecostals are. I am not saying one is wrong or right just why the major diffrence on this paticular subject..

[deltaguitar]

I believe in the gifts of the spirit and speaking in tongues.

I consider myself a pentecostal.

However, after growing up 27 years in the upc and having been a part of many frenzied altar calls I am not so sure that I ever really spoke in tongues. I can say that God has touched my life in ways that I will never be able to explain and I have felt the awesome feeling of him holding me in his arms and picking me up after I had almost given up on him completely.

There has been a lot of pain and confusion in my life because I always thought God was angry at me or that I wasn't good enough to receive his spirit. I loved him and wanted to fellowship with him but I thought that meant "getting in the spirit".

The truth. He was there all the time. His spirit was there but I was focused on an experience and not true relationship. He was being patient just waiting for me to accept him and receive the joy, peace, and fulfillment that only he can give.

As soon as I stopped seeking tongues and just collapsed in his arms and gave him everything he started working in my life.

Honestly, I don't see the difference in those who have the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues any more than many of my sold out Christian friends that I have never heard speak in tongues.

I do think that we should seek for and accept everything that God has for our lives but I can't seek for something at the cost of my faith and relationship with him.

Oh yeah, I do consider myself to have God's Holy Spirit living in me and working in my life.

[Cindy]

Peter said "repent and be baptized" in response to a specific question, "what shall we do?"

"Repent and be baptized" seem to be things we do.

Is Holy Ghost infilling something we do?

Repent and be baptized = my responsibility.
and ye shall receive = God's responsibility

Am I wrong?

There seems to be two commands and a promise.

Are there other scriptures that command us to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

That is it exactly Ed. If we repent and are baptized in Jesus name, God promised the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I don't think there are any scriptures that say the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a command. Is God commanding Himself?

[MissBrattified]

Daniel, do you believe in tongues? What was your Holy Ghost experience? Did you speak in tongues? Do you believe it's only a gift, as in one of the gifts of the Spirit, like messages in tongues? What do you believe comprises the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and what is the purpose of tongues?

[SDG]

Daniel, do you believe in tongues?
Yes.

What was your Holy Ghost experience?

I was born again, from above, by the Spirit of God (gennoa anothen) when I placed my faith in the Work of the Lamb, Jesus Christ for salvation He afforded. (See John 3)

Did you speak in tongues? Yes, much later. On October 4, 1981.

Do you believe it's only a gift, as in one of the gifts of the Spirit, like messages in tongues? Yes.

What do you believe comprises the baptism of the Holy Ghost,

All I know is what the bible says about it.

1 Cor. 12:13 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Cor/1cor_12.htm#For) says, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

Some say this is the believer's baptism into the Body of Christ, which happen's at the point of faith.

However, there are many Christians who claim to have had this "secondary" experience of the Spirit. They say that it has brought great blessing and comfort to them. Furthermore, they say that the results of the experience is a renewed dedication and appreciation for God, a stronger desire to read the Bible, a stronger desire to fellowship with Christians, and a deeper sense of worship of God.

While others say the evidence of tongues is the only sign that that indicated receving the Holy Ghost thus this experience is necessary for salvation.





The term "baptize with the Holy Spirit1 (http://www.carm.org/questions/baptism_Spirit.htm#1)" occurs several times in scripture:

Matt. 3:11 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_3.htm#10), “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
Mark 1:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Mark/mark_1.htm#8), "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 3:16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_3.htm#1), "John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
John 1:33 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_1.htm#29), "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’"
Acts 1:5 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_1.htm#1), "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 11:16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_11.htm#12), "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’"
We can clearly see that the phrase baptized by the Spirit is used in the Bible. But, we do not find a clear teaching in the Bible of what the phrase means. Therefore, the debate continues.




Nevertheless, we can conclude that when a person is baptized in the Holy Spirit he has power bestowed upon him. This power is for the purpose of the preaching of the gospel in the first century (Acts 4:31 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_4.htm#27)).

Also, it has been accompanied by speaking in tongues (http://www.carm.org/questions/tongues.htm) ... but only in a handful of instances. There is not conclusive evidence tongue talking is normative as repentance and baptism are.

Acts 2:4 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_2.htm#And), "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

The issue now seems to be whether or not Baptism of/in/with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent event occurring after salvation.

the purpose of tongues?

As is true of all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the purpose of the gift of speaking in tongues is to edify the Church. I Corinthians 14:4-5. However, this edification can be accomplished in several different ways, as the scriptural examples and instructions regarding the gift attest.

For instance, in Acts 2:4-8, the Spirit demonstrated His presence and activity to a crowd of unbelievers by using an outpouring of messages declaring "the wonderful works of God" in human languages unknown to the speakers, but known to the hearers.

Similarly, the manifestation of tongues — apparently without interpreters — in Acts 10:44-46 edified the Church by showing the Apostles that Gentiles had been accepted into it on the same terms as Jews, thus demonstrating its unity. Again by contrast, the manifestation of tongues in Acts 19:6 edified the Church by reassuring the speakers that they were a part of it. On the other hand, I Corinthians 14:6 indicates that other gifts — revelation, knowledge, prophecy or teaching — may be presented through messages in tongues, although such messages, if given during organized worship, are to be presented only in an orderly way and with an interpreter present so that all may benefit from the message. I Corinthians 14:13-19, 26-28. Finally, I Corinthians 14:1-5 appears to indicate that speaking in tongues is a form of spiritual communication with God by which an individual believer may edify himself.

Lastly, It is not a sign for believers, as some have made it in the 3 step paradigm ... as a benchmark to being saved ...

but rather for unbelievers.

Lastly, Jesus said that tongues is a sign that follows believers (Mark 16) as does casting out demons. Was Jesus making exorcisms salvific?

The gift of the Holy Ghost is ...
IS A PROMISE ... A GIFT .... NOT A COMMAND.

We agree, Ed.

[Scott Hutchinson]

This is something to consider,ok the disciples did preach before Pentecost,but after the ascension they had to receive the Holy Ghost before continuing ministering,so after one repents they like the disciples should receive the Holy Ghost before trying to be a witness.ACTS.1:8,9.
This is a question if one has to have the Spirit of Christ to be one Of His,then when does one receive The Holy Spirit ?
Where the bible make a difference between receiving and being baptized with The Holy Ghost ?

[Scott Hutchinson]

This is an interesting read.
http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Spirit.html

[TRFrance]

Okay ... I'll give you an out ... show me half of the conversions resulted in tongues. A quarter?

You don't have BIBLE. You're out of the Book.

TR, truth is ... you believe that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost, correct?

And that one is not saved without receiving the Holy Ghost, right?

Are you any more Apostolic than an extrabiblical faithful Catholic?
Thanks for giving me an out, sir. That's almost funny.
(eyeroll)

I dont want to get on this merry-go-round all over again, but allow me to show you where you keep missing it. Something tells me it wont do a bit of good (then again, maybe someone else reading this might benefit), but here goes anyway:

You keep saying that most of the "conversion" passages do not mention them speaking in tongues. Ok... but you seem to ignore this simple fact... Many of the instances that speak of people being "converted" do not describe the moment when they got the Holy Ghost (and many dont even describe when they got baptized)... It just speaks of them "turning to the lord", being "added to the church", etc. in general terms. So because it's very silent regarding what happened when they got the Holy Ghost, you cant make a tongues argument one way or the other based on those scriputures, because they are silent regarding the persons' Holy Ghost infilling. Thus the whole premise of your argument is fatally flawed. Now, most of the same passages that dont speak about them getting the Holy Ghost/speaking in tongues also dont speak of them getting baptized, and many dont even specify that they repented! So if we're going to use your line of argument, and make assumptions based on what's NOT said, we can end up out in left field with some really offbeat beliefs and doctrines.

It makes more sense to look at the instances where it DOES speak specifically about them receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and look at the pattern of what happened in those instances ...(rather than looking at general instances of " a great number believed, and turned to the Lord", Acts 11:21 , or Lydda and her household coming to the Lord, Acts 16, etc)

Your argument is based on a faulty premise to begin with, and faulty premises will always lead to faulty conclusions.
Really, I dont know why you seem to always want to pull me into these silly and circular 1 stepper/3-stepper arguments. Frankly, you're wasting your time if you think you can ever convince me of the 1-stepper position.

I'm convinced that in the end, time will prove me to be correct on this.
The greatest friend of the truth is time.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Here is something to listen to.
http://www.soundboard.com/sb/Speaking_in_Tongues.aspx

[KWSS1976]

So did the Phillipian jailer have the Holyghost? He wanted to know what he needed to do to be saved....

[Scott Hutchinson]

Bishop Leslie is getting down here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD2jpfDgrdQ

[mizpeh]

The term "baptize with the Holy Spirit1 (http://www.carm.org/questions/baptism_Spirit.htm#1)" occurs several times in scripture:

Matt. 3:11 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_3.htm#10), “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
Mark 1:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Mark/mark_1.htm#8), "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 3:16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_3.htm#1), "John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
John 1:33 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/John/john_1.htm#29), "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’"
Acts 1:5 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_1.htm#1), "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 11:16 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_11.htm#12), "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’"
We can clearly see that the phrase baptized by the Spirit is used in the Bible. But, we do not find a clear teaching in the Bible of what the phrase means. Therefore, the debate continues.

There are many other words associated with "baptism" when it refers to the Holy Spirit....this is a chart from DB's The New Birth:

Biblical Terminology

The Book of Acts describes the baptism of the Spirit in many ways: "filled with the Holy Ghost" (2:4); "the promise of the Holy Ghost" (2:33); "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (2:38); "the Holy Ghost fell on all them" (10:44); "poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost" (10:45); "received the Holy Ghost" (10:47); and "the Holy Ghost came on them" (19:6). The epistles explain that the Holy Spirit dwells in us (Romans 8:9).

All these phrases simply identify the same New Testament experience in different ways. When empty human vessels are baptized in the Spirit, they are filled with the Spirit. When God pours out His Spirit on people, the Spirit comes on them, they receive the Spirit, and they are filled with the Spirit. When God gives the Spirit, He fulfills His promise and men receive the Spirit.

The following chart demonstrates the equivalence of all these phrases.

Table 7 - Biblical Terminology for the Spirit Baptism (from the book of Acts)
Baptized Came on Fell on Filled Gift Received Poured
Came on (upon) 1:5, 8
Fell on 11:15-16 10:44-47; 19:2, 6
Filled with 1:5; 2:4 1:5, 8; 2:4 2:4; 11:15
Gift 11:15-17 2:38; 19:2, 6 10:44-45 2:4; 11:17
Received 1:5; 2:33 19:2, 6 10:44, 47 2:4, 33 2:38
Poured out 10:45; 11:15-16 1:8; 2:16-18 10:44-45 2:4, 16-17 10:45 10:45, 47
Promise 1:4-5 1:4, 8 1:4-5; 11:15-16 2:4, 33 2:38-39 2:33 1:4; 2:16-17

[This chart didn't come out right, please go to the link provided to view it better]

Some of these descriptions compare the Holy Spirit to water, and Jesus described the Spirit as living water that would quench spiritual thirst (John 4:14; 7:38). However, the Holy Spirit is not actually a fluid but is God Himself. The Bible also associates the Spirit with fire (Matthew 3:11) and wind (John 3:8), but the Spirit is not literally fire, wind, or water.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-Ch8.htm

Dan, my question to you is since you cannot tell when someone receives the Spirit of Christ/Holy Ghost as there is no outer sign could you explain Acts 8?

The Samaritans believed the gospel.
The Samaritans were water baptized in the name of the Lord.
Despite having faith and being baptized, the Samaritans had to wait for the apostles to come to receive the gift of the Spirit.

(should we ASSUME that Philip preached repentance and that the Samaritans repented even though it does not explicitly state this?)

This doesn't add up in your paradigm.

[Tim Rutledge]

Why does God give us the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

Is the gift a reward for a person's "perfect" repentance?

Is the gift given as a token of God's approval of us?

Why does God give the gift of the Holy Ghost to people who have not been baptized in Jesus' name?

How can they be qualified to receive it without baptism?

What is the purpose of Holy Ghost infilling?

The Holy Ghost is given to us to lead us, and give us power to overcome the devil and our flesh. Anyone with faith and true repentance can recieve the Holy Ghost.

[tv1a]

Repentence has nothing to do with the infilling of the Holy Ghost. It has something to do with keeping the Holy Ghost, but not getting it.

Jesus said the Holy Ghost is for power to become witnesses. The rest of what you said is icing on the cake. If we are not witnessing, the Holy Ghost isn't fulfilling its role in our life.

The Holy Ghost is given to us to lead us, and give us power to overcome the devil and our flesh. Anyone with faith and true repentance can recieve the Holy Ghost.