Not Holy Spirit filled, Give Message in Tongues?

[Hoovie]

We know that miracles, healings, signs and wonders can be present in the lives of Christians who have not been filled with the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues as evidence). Also, prophecies were given by many who did not speak in tongues.

Here are the questions.

If we assume speaking in tongues at Holy Spirit baptism is a different and separate occurrence than speaking in tongues that are subsequently interpreted, is it then possible that one may "give a message in tongues" and not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Does operating in this gift necessarily imply that the speaker also received the Holy Spirit? Why when one has the gift of healing or knowledge then does it not imply the same??

[Esther]

We know that miracles, healings, signs and wonders can be present in the lives of Christians who have not been filled with the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues as evidence). Also, prophecies were given by many who did not speak in tongues.

Here are the questions.

If we assume speaking in tongues at Holy Spirit baptism is a different and separate occurrence than speaking in tongues that are subsequently interpreted, is it then possible that one may "give a message in tongues" and not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Does operating in this gift necessarily imply that the speaker also received the Holy Spirit? Why when one has the gift of healing or knowledge then does it not imply the same??


Don't we normally declare someone has the Holy Ghost when they speak in tongues?

[Hoovie]

Don't we normally declare someone has the Holy Ghost when they speak in tongues?

It is also normally declared that speaking in tongues initially (at Holy Spirit baptism) is NOT THE SAME as the gift of tongues.

[Fiyahstarter]

We know that miracles, healings, signs and wonders can be present in the lives of Christians who have not been filled with the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues as evidence). Also, prophecies were given by many who did not speak in tongues.

Here are the questions.

If we assume speaking in tongues at Holy Spirit baptism is a different and separate occurrence than speaking in tongues that are subsequently interpreted, is it then possible that one may "give a message in tongues" and not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Does operating in this gift necessarily imply that the speaker also received the Holy Spirit? Why when one has the gift of healing or knowledge then does it not imply the same??

A good question...

I always wondered, if it is expected to speak in tongues when one receives the HG, why is it also not required that that they be healers by laying on of hands when they receive. AFter all, it does say "these things shall follow" those who believe, right?

[Norman]

is it then possible that one may "give a message in tongues" and not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

No. No way. It can't happen. A person that does give a message in tongues either has the Holy Ghost, or is not really speaking in tongues by the Holy Ghost. People can fake speaking in tongues.

[chseeads]

Gifts of the Spirit are not operated in by those who don't first HAVE the Spirit.

[berkeley]

Gifts of the Spirit are not operated in by those who don't first HAVE the Spirit.
A resounding Amen!

[Sam]

Gifts of the Spirit are not operated in by those who don't first HAVE the Spirit.

Is it possible for someone who has not spoken with tongues to have the Spirit dwelling in them? In other words, can Jesus come into a person's heart without that person speaking with tongues?

[chseeads]

Is it possible for someone who has not spoken with tongues to have the Spirit dwelling in them? In other words, can Jesus come into a person's heart without that person speaking with tongues?

No.

[Hoovie]

Gifts of the Spirit are not operated in by those who don't first HAVE the Spirit.

No. No way. It can't happen. A person that does give a message in tongues either has the Holy Ghost, or is not really speaking in tongues by the Holy Ghost. People can fade speaking in tongues.

Are you then saying those who have apparent gifts of healing, discernment, knowledge etc., yet do not speak in tongues, are also faking it?

Do we discount miracles if they occur in memberships of non Pentecostal churches?

[Hoovie]

Is it possible for someone who has not spoken with tongues to have the Spirit dwelling in them? In other words, can Jesus come into a person's heart without that person speaking with tongues?

No.

Wow! this is a very strong stance.

I could not agree with this, neither was it my own experience.

[chseeads]

Are you then saying those who have apparent gifts of healing, discernment, knowledge etc., yet do not speak in tongues, are also faking it?

Do we discount miracles if they occur in memberships of non Pentecostal churches?

A miracle can occur wherever God pleases. That doesn't mean it's a spiritual gift.

[chseeads]

Wow! this is a very strong stance.

I could not agree with this, neither was it my own experience.

Some things are black and white, that is one.

[Hoovie]

Some things are black and white, that is one.

When Jesus came into my own heart I was never the same. I was converted, the word was illuminated to me. I loved to pray and felt the overwhelming presence of God. I was compelled to make restitution to those I had wronged and testified publicly to many of my peers at church and work.

[Hoovie]

A miracle can occur wherever God pleases. That doesn't mean it's a spiritual gift.

I do understand the sovereignty of God and his ability to do as he will.

The question asked is if God uses men specifically in the gifts to administer healing (laying on of hands, prayer) or in giving a message in tongues, or being a facilitator in miraculous works, if they have not received the evidence of tongues in Holy Spirit baptism.

If such a person lays hands on the sick and they are healed - is that not the gift of healing?

[chseeads]

I wouldn't personally classify it as such.

[Praxeas]

We know that miracles, healings, signs and wonders can be present in the lives of Christians who have not been filled with the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues as evidence). Also, prophecies were given by many who did not speak in tongues.

Here are the questions.

If we assume speaking in tongues at Holy Spirit baptism is a different and separate occurrence than speaking in tongues that are subsequently interpreted, is it then possible that one may "give a message in tongues" and not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Does operating in this gift necessarily imply that the speaker also received the Holy Spirit? Why when one has the gift of healing or knowledge then does it not imply the same??
if a Person really is operating in the gifts of the Spirit then they must have THE Spirit already

[TRFrance]

When Jesus came into my own heart I was never the same. I was converted, the word was illuminated to me. I loved to pray and felt the overwhelming presence of God. I was compelled to make restitution to those I had wronged and testified publicly to many of my peers at church and work.

Just because the Lord is working on someone's heart doesnt mean they've received the baptism of His Spirit.

[TRFrance]

If such a person lays hands on the sick and they are healed - is that not the gift of healing?

God responds to faith, and God can respond to any prayer to Him that's made in faith.

That doesnt mean the person who "lays hands" and prays for healing has the spiritual gift of healing.
Are you then saying those who have apparent gifts of healing, discernment, knowledge etc., yet do not speak in tongues, are also faking it?

Do we discount miracles if they occur in memberships of non Pentecostal churches?
That's the key word there: "apparent".

Its been known that Catholic priests have been "apparently" casting out demons for centuries. And these are men who dont have the Holy Ghost.

Just because it seems they're casting out demons doesnt mean they have the Holy Spirit, or have a real relationship with God.

Things are not always what they seem.

And lets not forget Jesus' words in Matthew 7:

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Scott Hutchinson]

This has been debated a million times over,but I don't believe one can truly and genuinely operate in the gifts of the Spirit without having received the baptism of The Holy Ghost.
Sadly many fake these gifts and it's hard to explain how sometimes people who live immoral lifestyles seemingly function in the gifts,that's why I say these sorts are not properly operating in the gifts.
People who are living immoral lifestyles and then try to function in the gifts,are not vessels of honour in the body of Christ.

[Scott Hutchinson]

God honors faith,and He will move for people in response to their faith,and grant non-spirit filled people healing and miracles but can one have a gift of the Spirit without having the Spirit ?

[Hoovie]

Let me try to reword this.

Are any of the gifts of the Spirit evidence of the Holy Spirit in the individual's life?

For those who have said some of these can be faked - I agree.

[chseeads]

Are any of the gifts of the Spirit evidence of the Holy Spirit in the individual's life?


It could be, but doesn't necessarily mean so. If a person has never spoken in tongues, yet apparently has the gifts, it doesn't mean they have the Holy Ghost.

[scotty]

Let me try to reword this.

Are any of the gifts of the Spirit evidence of the Holy Spirit in the individual's life?

For those who have said some of these can be faked - I agree.


Yes.

[shag]

I have friends that have never spoke in tongues, and produce righteous fruit 100 fold that of many that have spoken in tongues. Seems to prove to me they're Spirit led. Can God's Spirit lead them to producing that much "good fruit", without indwelling in , and without them ever speaking in tongues as the evidence of His indwelling? I think so, and I also think folks like James Dobson, for 1, has God's Spirit leading him from the inside, whether he's spoken in tongues to convince me, or not.
As far as "gifts of healing", I have not PERSONALLY seen any H.G. filled person evidence with tongues, or any other, that retains that gift, tho I feel there is some out there that may have it, whether they have spoken in tongues or not. Jesus said you'll know them by their fruits. I wonder if we're a lttle amiss looking for tongues as the 1 and only sign, when evident fruits say that person is being led by God's Spirit.

[BadgerBoysMom]

When Jesus came into my own heart I was never the same. I was converted, the word was illuminated to me. I loved to pray and felt the overwhelming presence of God. I was compelled to make restitution to those I had wronged and testified publicly to many of my peers at church and work.

Did you speak in tongues at this time?

I'd like to give a bit of history about myself. I was raised in a non christian home. I had little to no church background growing up other than a few Easter Sundays, one summer camp and a few services with friends in high school. It was just a blip here and there.

But at age 22 I was invited and went to a UPC Church with a friend and coworker. Up to this point my life had spiraled into complete chaos and I was ready for a change. The message that night (I believe) was directed to me personally. I don't mean to sound egotistical or anything I just know the hell I had in my own life and how desparate I was for help/healing.

Anyway, I prayed (and wept and so on) until I was completely emptied out. I committed my life to Jesus that night and was FOREVER CHANGED. He came in my heart and I was made ALIVE. What was dead was reborn. I was "born again" that night. I cannot describe (in words) the change that took place within my heart, my mind, and my soul (and still do it justice). It is just not possible. The next day and over the next few weeks people would comment on the fact that I had changed. That something was different about me. A lady whom I worked with me later told me that she could almost literally see a glow around me. (probably b/c I was so filthy in sin that the cleaning up itself made me glow... HA HA)

However, I did NOT speak in tongues until almost a month later and have many times since then almost 15 yrs ago. And quite honestly this PALED IN COMPARISON to my experience at the alter the first night. No experience since that first night has ever compared.

Based on my experience I would say it is not only possible but that it does happen. I think we as an organization place way too much emphasis on tongues and not nearly enough on developing the Fruit of the Spirit and walking in the Spirit.

Any how... just a bit about me. :blah

[chseeads]

It's not all just about a feeling that we have at any given point in time - whether when not speaking in tongues, or when speaking in tongues.

[scotty]

It's not all just about a feeling that we have at any given point in time - whether when not speaking in tongues, or when speaking in tongues.

Exactly !

FOREVER CHANGED. He came in my heart and I was made ALIVE. What was dead was reborn. I was "born again" that night. I cannot describe (in words) the change that took place within my heart, my mind, and my soul (and still do it justice). It is just not possible. The next day and over the next few weeks people would comment on the fact that I had changed. That something was different about me. A lady whom I worked with me later told me that she could almost literally see a glow around me. (probably b/c I was so filthy in sin that the cleaning up itself made me glow... HA HA)




People have life changes like this all the time without ever stepping into a church.

[ILG]

We know that miracles, healings, signs and wonders can be present in the lives of Christians who have not been filled with the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues as evidence). Also, prophecies were given by many who did not speak in tongues.

Here are the questions.

If we assume speaking in tongues at Holy Spirit baptism is a different and separate occurrence than speaking in tongues that are subsequently interpreted, is it then possible that one may "give a message in tongues" and not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Does operating in this gift necessarily imply that the speaker also received the Holy Spirit? Why when one has the gift of healing or knowledge then does it not imply the same??

Woah! Very thought provoking question!!

[Sam]

When Jesus came into my own heart I was never the same. I was converted, the word was illuminated to me. I loved to pray and felt the overwhelming presence of God. I was compelled to make restitution to those I had wronged and testified publicly to many of my peers at church and work.

On March 28, 1955 at the age of 17, I asked Jesus to come into my heart. I did not feel anything earthshaking at that moment but my life changed. My language cleaned up. I quit smoking and drinking alcohol. I started going to church and later joined a Baptist Church. I started carrying my Bible to school to read during study hall. I was a new creature according to 2 Corinthians 5:17.

I saw by reading my Bible and by listening to some preaching on the radio (Revivaltime with C.M. Ward plus some preachers like A.A. Allen, Jack Coe, Glenn Thompson) that there was more available for me as a Christian.

October 27, 1955 I was re-baptized. I had been baptized in a nearby lake by my Baptist pastor that summer.

May 20, 1955 I received the Holy Ghost Baptism.

I've been serving the Lord (some times not very well) for over 50 years. Many of those years I had to "deny" the experience with God that I had received because it wasn't "proper" water baptism and because I hadn't spoken with tongues. In other words, I was not REALLY saved until I spoke with tongues more than a year after my life was radically changed. I no longer deny the life changing experience I received when I simply asked Jesus to come in. I believe He did come in as the Holy Spirit when I asked. Over a year later I received a subsequent experience when I spoke with tongues. That was a filling, a baptism in the Spirit, but it was not salvation. I was no more saved afterward than I was before.

Now, this is my opinion and may not agree with your opinion.

[TRFrance]

I have friends that have never spoke in tongues, and produce righteous fruit 100 fold that of many that have spoken in tongues. Seems to prove to me they're Spirit led. Can God's Spirit lead them to producing that much "good fruit", without indwelling in , and without them ever speaking in tongues as the evidence of His indwelling? I think so, and I also think folks like James Dobson, for 1, has God's Spirit leading him from the inside, whether he's spoken in tongues to convince me, or not.

I think we should just go by what the Word says, and not by our own feelings or impressions.

There are some mild, sweet-spirited Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses ouit there too. From their demeanor and daily lifestyle, many would think they produce "righteous fruit" too. But these people are not Spirit-led. These people's "fruit" doesnt "prove" anything.

There are also some mild-mannered so-called "believers" in certain churches/denominations, who are very anti-Holy Ghost, and discourage their loved ones from going to a Pentecostal churches, because they feel speaking in tongues is demonic, fake, etc. These people are not Spirit led and certainly not Spirit filled, no matter how sweet and gentle they may seem to be.

[Sam]

The disciples of Jesus were authorized to preach, teach, and work miracles. Their names were written in Heaven. (Luke 10:1-20). Later, after His resurrection, Jesus commissioned them to go into all the world and preach to every creature, but, told them to wait in Jerusalem for an experience that would give them power to be witnesses for Him. Ten days after His ascension, Jesus poured out an empowering experience that we call "the Holy Ghost Baptism" or "the Pentecostal Experience" or "the release of the Spirit" or "the filling of the Spirit." This was for empowerment. It was not for salvation. They had already been saved and working for God.

again, this is my opinion and may not agree with your opinion.

[KWSS1976]

TR France if they think tongues are demonic they have to be reading it from somewere in the bible why else would they think like this. I know what you are saying because I have heard the exact samething..

[TRFrance]

TR France if they think tongues are demonic they have to be reading it from somewere in the bible why else would they think like this. I know what you are saying because I have heard the exact samething..
But where would they be reading it in the bible? There's nothing in the bible about demons speaking in tongues.

It's plain ignorance and hardness of heart, just as the Pharisees claimed Jesus was casting out devils by Beelzebub, the prince of devils. They refused to believe and accept Jesus's word and his works, so they tried to talk down his works by claiming they were not of God. It's the same kind of thing with these folks who talk about Pentecostals who speak in tongues as being demon possessed. These people who say that are terribly deceived, and are often looking to find a way to explain away the phenomenon, especially since they havent had the experience themselves.

They remind me of the kind of people Jesus speaks of in the parable of the sower, when he says:Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luke 8:12)

[shag]

the one verse I have heard used by a good s. baptist buddy of mine is;

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’(iniquity-kjv)

He claimed they would be working iniquity by casting out devils and prophesying in his name according to this verse. Yeah, I know, the signs follow the believers..., I told him that.

TR, your points concerning Jehova witnesses, mormons etc... are good noteworthy points IMO. If someone believes Jesus was just an angel or prophet.... they're no doubt, up the creek without a paddle no matter how much good fruit they produce. And they sure can't have His Spirit in them if the believe Him to just be a prophet or angel...

It does however lead me to a question;
Is it possible to cast out demons in his name without knowing him? They tried it in the bible and they got stripped naked, and sent on down the road.

[TRFrance]

the one verse I have heard used by a good s. baptist buddy of mine is;

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’(iniquity-kjv)

He claimed they would be working iniquity by casting out devils and prophesying in his name according to this verse. Yeah, I know, the signs follow the believers, I told him that.


Shag, I feel sorry for your good Baptist buddy.
Here's the thing: ask him for a scripture that says that tongues and other manifestations of the Spirit would not continue to future generations beyond the early church.

He cant find any such scripture, because it doesnt exist.

[shag]

Agreed. he as many, overlook Crinthians extended expl. of gifts in the operation of the church....for the church....on and on..


What do you think about my previous inserted last question, as to if its possible to cast out demons.....

[KWSS1976]

Actually trfrance in 1 corithians 8:13 it does mention something to the effect but the kicker is the perfect is it the bible or jesus because the bible is the perfect word which they did not have back then for people to read..

[shag]

Actually trfrance in 1 corithians 8:13 it does mention something to the effect but the kicker is the perfect is it the bible or jesus because the bible is the perfect word which they did not have back then for people to read..

I personally, dont feel he would institute so much scripture on "tongue and sign" operation in the church in atleast 1 full chapter, if it did not exist after the letters came together shortly thereafter. Why even put it in there? Makes no sense to me that way of "thinking'.

[deltaguitar]

Exactly !




People have life changes like this all the time without ever stepping into a church.

You put down on the work of Christ? This person gives their testimony and for you to put down is just wrong. NO ONE can be born again without Christ.

[KWSS1976]

So if he was saying all these things shall cease, at what time are they to cease?

[TRFrance]

Actually trfrance in 1 corithians 8:13 it does mention something to the effect but the kicker is the perfect is it the bible or jesus because the bible is the perfect word which they did not have back then for people to read..

Yes, I'm familiar with their "that which is perfect" argument, but it doesnt hold water.

Jesus said in Mark 16: "these signs shall follow them that believe...."
The signs were for the believers... and not just "for a while until the Word of God was perfected".

The were for the believers, period. Jesus put no time limitation on it. As long as there are believers, as long as there is a church, those words apply to his believers. Any time-restriction people try to place on those words is simply artificial.
So if he was saying all these things shall cease, at what time are they to cease?
When Jesus comes.

[shag]

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’(iniquity-kjv)



Is it possible to cast out demons in his name without knowing him? They tried it (using 'the name')in the bible and they got stripped naked, and sent on down the road.

[KWSS1976]

So in 1 Corithians Paul was just spinning his wheels telling us that those things were going to cease he really did not know what he was talking about even though Jesus was inspiring him.. Above you stated you think jesus did not put a time frame on it,but yet he gave paul the inspiration to write this. So was paul not inspired to write this by Jesus?

[Timmy]

Yes, I'm familiar with their "that which is perfect" argument, but it doesnt hold water.

Jesus said in Mark 16: "these signs shall follow them that believe...."
The signs were for the believers... and not just "for a while until the Word of God was perfected".

The were for the believers, period. Jesus put no time limitation on it. As long as there are believers, as long as there is a church, those words apply to his believers. Any time-restriction people try to place on those words is simply artificial.


If you accept Mark 16:9-20 as inspired.


When Jesus comes.

Will the church cease to exist then?

[shag]

LOL! Now we're gettin' down to the nitty gritty!

[Timmy]

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’(iniquity-kjv)



Is it possible to cast out demons in his name without knowing him? They tried it (using 'the name')in the bible and they got stripped naked, and sent on down the road.

Seems like those miracle workers will be surprised to find that they are not saved. Think any of those would have voted "100% sure" in this poll (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=20984). ;)

[shag]

When that which is perfect, IMO, is that great and notable day of the Lord, his final return.
The church is not discussed as being in part, and it will continue to exist. But the "that which is in part" are the "knowing" and the "prophesying". Then they, not the church, will cease to exist.
At the times of restitution of all things- Acts 3:21

[TRFrance]

So in 1 Corithians Paul was just spinning his wheels telling us that those things were going to cease he really did not know what he was talking about even though Jesus was inspiring him.. Above you stated you think jesus did not put a time frame on it,but yet he gave paul the inspiration to write this. So was paul not inspired to write this by Jesus?
With all due respect KW, what you're saying is not really making a lot of sense to me.
I dont see any kind of inconsistency or inherent contradiction in anything I said, so...explain to me.
What am I missing here? What point are you trying to make?

(Jesus did not put an artificial 1st century-3rd century time frame on the manifestations of the Holy Ghost, as some Baptists and others try to do.

He said these signs will follow his believers. Period. That is, the church. There are "believers" now in the 21st century just as there were in the 1st century. The New Testament church continues until Jesus comes back for his bride. This harmonizes with what Paul said. There is no contradiction at all. )

[Timmy]

With all due respect KW, what you're saying is not really making a lot of sense to me.
I dont see any kind of inconsistency or inherent contradiction in anything I said, so...explain to me.
What am I missing here? What point are you trying to make?

(Jesus did not put an artificial 1st century-3rd century time frame on the manifestations of the Holy Ghost, as some Baptists and others try to do.

He said these signs will follow his believers. Period. That is, the church. There are "believers" now in the 21st century just as there were in the 1st century. The New Testament church continues until Jesus comes back for his bride. This harmonizes with what Paul said. There is no contradiction at all. )

I wonder why Paul didn't just make it clear what he meant!

[Timmy]

BTW, Jesus also said how people would recognize His followers. John 13:35.

Does that still work today? ;)

[StillStanding]

BTW, Jesus also said how people would recognize His followers. John 13:35.

Does that still work today? ;)
Nope! You must dress like the 1950's American culture!

[TRFrance]

I wonder why Paul didn't just make it clear what he meant!
God doesnt make everything clear to everyone.
Matt 13:

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Of course, having the Holy Ghost goes a long way toward understanding the scriptures in the first place.

[Timmy]

God doesnt make everything clear to everyone.
Matt 13:

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Yeah. I've noticed that. And ". . . lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." If I don't "get it", God (apparently) doesn't want me to.

[Timmy]

Nope! You must dress like the 1950's American culture!

:lol

[TRFrance]

Yeah. I've noticed that. And ". . . lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." If I don't "get it", God (apparently) doesn't want me to.
Well, judging from what I've seen you say before on this forum, you dont even take the Bible to be the inspired word of God.

So how much can you expect God to reveal to you from his Word when you approach his Word with such skepticism to begin with?

[shag]

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’(iniquity-kjv)



Is it possible to cast out demons in his name without knowing him? They tried it (using 'the name')in the bible and they got stripped naked, and sent on down the road.

TR, what think ye?

[TRFrance]

TR, what think ye?
I don't believe it's possible.

A demon can choose to go out of a person if they want to, but I dont believe a non Spirit-filled person has any power over a demon, to cast it out.

[shag]

I do notice it says "Jesus never knew them", nothing about "them not knowing Him". Interesting IMO.

[scotty]

49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Don't know if maybe "because he followeth not with us" means the person did know Jesus or just simply was not a dicsiple.

[TRFrance]

49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Don't know if maybe "because he followeth not with us" means the person did know Jesus or just simply was not a dicsiple.
I've always taken it to mean they were not one of his 12 disciples.

[Timmy]

Well, judging from what I've seen you say before on this forum, you dont even take the Bible to be the inspired word of God.

So how much can you expect God to reveal to you from his Word when you approach his Word with such skepticism to begin with?

Nothing, apparently. So, one must approach the Bible without skepticism? And one is somehow expected to know this up front? And that it's OK to be skeptical about some things, like the Quran, teachings of Buddha, science books (if they teach evolution :thumbsup), etc., in fact, everything except for the Bible?

Mmmmkay.

[chseeads]

Nothing, apparently. So, one must approach the Bible without skepticism? And one is somehow expected to know this up front? And that it's OK to be skeptical about some things, like the Quran, teachings of Buddha, science books (if they teach evolution :thumbsup), etc., in fact, everything except for the Bible?

Mmmmkay.

That sounds like you have no concept at all of Faith.

[TRFrance]

Nothing, apparently. So, one must approach the Bible without skepticism? And one is somehow expected to know this up front? And that it's OK to be skeptical about some things, like the Quran, teachings of Buddha, science books (if they teach evolution :thumbsup), etc., in fact, everything except for the Bible?

Mmmmkay.
Many non-believers approach the Word of God with a sense of skepticism. I can understand that. I have no problem with critical thinking; that's not the issue.

But lets not kid ourselves here, Tim.
You havent merely "approached the bible with skepticism". You have concluded that the Bible is not the word of God.

Big difference.

[Timmy]

That sounds like you have no concept at all of Faith.

I understand faith. I just think I should have some basis of deciding in what or whom to place my faith, other than someone saying "because I said so" (and it has to be the right "someone").

Thomas believed only after seeing. Jesus reprimanded him and said those who believe without seeing would be blessed. Well, you could say exactly the same thing about any religion, could you not? How is the man on the street supposed to distinguish? Is it by fruit? What fruit does the OP movement have that's better than those so-called false religions? Someone here said (paraphrasing) they know some very nice and moral and loving Mormons, but their "fruit" was bogus, since it wasn't from the Holy Spirit (the Mormons not being of the true Apostolic faith). So, how is fruit supposed to be judged? The man on the street has no way of knowing good fruit from bad, apparently. He's expected to accept or reject it based, not on the fruit itself, but on the source of the fruit! That makes no sense!

[Praxeas]

Let me try to reword this.

Are any of the gifts of the Spirit evidence of the Holy Spirit in the individual's life?

For those who have said some of these can be faked - I agree.
Yes they are evidence. However that does not mean any of them are an initial sign.

[Timmy]

Many non-believers approach the Word of God with a sense of skepticism. I can understand that. I have no problem with critical thinking; that's not the issue.

But lets not kid ourselves here, Tim.
You havent merely "approached the bible with skepticism". You have concluded that the Bible is not the word of God.

Big difference.

That's the camp I'm in now, after nearly 50 years of faith. I don't deny it. I am still open, believe it or not. But so far, I'm not seeing much to confirm the Bible's infallibility or inspiration. Maybe I should change my handle to "Tommy". :lol

[TRFrance]

I understand faith. I just think I should have some basis of deciding in what or whom to place my faith, other than someone saying "because I said so" (and it has to be the right "someone").

Thomas believed only after seeing. Jesus reprimanded him and said those who believe without seeing would be blessed. Well, you could say exactly the same thing about any religion, could you not? How is the man on the street supposed to distinguish? Is it by fruit? What fruit does the OP movement have that's better than those so-called false religions? Someone here said (paraphrasing) they know some very nice and moral and loving Mormons, but their "fruit" was bogus, since it wasn't from the Holy Spirit (the Mormons not being of the true Apostolic faith). So, how is fruit supposed to be judged? The man on the street has no way of knowing good fruit from bad, apparently. He's expected to accept or reject it based, not on the fruit itself, but on the source of the fruit! That makes no sense!
Well Tim, if you're waiting for the heavens to open and God to send you an angel for you to believe, that's probably not gonna happen.

I normally dont waste a lot of time talking with such "skeptics", especially if they've had an experience with God before, and now have rejected it. No one has the right to hear the gospel over and over again, when there are still so many who've never heard it once yet.

Too many people use "skepticism" as a crutch -- an excuse NOT to believe. No matter what, they always find a reason not to believe, a reason to sit on the sidelines being a skeptic. They dont believe simply because they dont want to, and in some cases actually like poking holes in other people's faith. These people will have no excuse the day they stand before God.

[TRFrance]

That's the camp I'm in now, after nearly 50 years of faith. I don't deny it. I am still open, believe it or not. But so far, I'm not seeing much to confirm the Bible's infallibility or inspiration. Maybe I should change my handle to "Tommy". :lol
Tim, maybe if you didn't seem to take on such a mocking, almost condescending, tone when speaking of the Bible and Christianity, some of us might be more open to discussing the matter with you.

But you know that scripture passage about casting pearls before swine.... some of us Christians do take that verse to heart. Most believers dont want to discuss faith with someone who despises something they hold dear to them.

[Timmy]

Sorry for the mocking tone and almost condescension, but do you have any substantive response to my posts? How about my observations about fruit? Any help for that man on the street I mentioned?

[Timmy]

I just searched and found out it was you that I paraphrased about Mormon fruit! Ironic! :lol

[TRFrance]

Sorry for the mocking tone and almost condescension, but do you have any substantive response to my posts? How about my observations about fruit? Any help for that man on the street I mentioned?
Well, I dont like to get into discussions on this topic, since they have a tendency to become, drawn-out, circular, and largely unfruitful.

But if you're one who likes reading, you might do well to invest a some time, and a few bucks, in a book called "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.

The author was a former skeptic/atheist who became a believer.
He deals with some of the toughest questions critics often ask, dealing with a variety of questions relating to the Bible, history, archaelogy, science, etc. I think he handles the questions very well showing how the available evidence strongly supports the veracity of the bible and its message regarding Christ and his resurrection. I've been recommending the book to others for years now. I think its the kind of book that both Christians and non Christians might find to be quite eye-opening, and an overall good read.

Used copies are usually available online for $3-4 plus shipping,
More info is at this link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0310209307/ref=dp_olp_1

Hope that's helpful somewhat.

(Have you prayed to God about this, by the way? Just wondering.)

[Timmy]

Well, I dont like to get into discussions on this topic, since they have a tendency to become, drawn-out, circular, and largely unfruitful.

But if you're one who likes reading, you might do well to invest a some time, and a few bucks, in a book called "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.

The author was a former skeptic/atheist who became a believer.
He deals with some of the toughest questions critics often ask, dealing with a variety of questions relating to the Bible, history, archaelogy, science, etc. I think he handles the questions very well showing how the available evidence strongly supports the veracity of the bible and its message regarding Christ and his resurrection. I've been recommending the book to others for years now. I think its the kind of book that both Christians and non Christians might find to be quite eye-opening, and an overall good read.

Used copies are usually available online for $3-4 plus shipping,
More info is at this link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0310209307/ref=dp_olp_1

Hope that's helpful somewhat.

(Have you prayed to God about this, by the way? Just wondering.)

I think we have that book. I have read The Case for Faith, and found it a somewhat better at answering the usual questions than the usual pat answers, but still not quite satisfying.

And yes, I have prayed about this, a lot.

[Hoovie]

Did you speak in tongues at this time?



I spoke in tongues 6 to 8 months after the event of my conversion.

[TRFrance]

I think we have that book. I have read The Case for Faith, and found it a somewhat better at answering the usual questions than the usual pat answers, but still not quite satisfying.

And yes, I have prayed about this, a lot.
we?
as in you and your wife?

[Timmy]

we?
as in you and your wife?

Yes.

[TRFrance]

Yes.
If you dont mind me asking...
do you both have similar beliefs regarding God, the Bible, etc?

[Timmy]

If you dont mind me asking...
do you both have similar beliefs regarding God, the Bible, etc?

No, our views are quite different now. She still believes the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible.

[Sam]

TR France if they think tongues are demonic they have to be reading it from somewere in the bible why else would they think like this. I know what you are saying because I have heard the exact samething..

I don't know of any place in the Bible that says that tongues are demonic.

Actually, to me, attributing speaking with tongues in Christian worship and practice to be demonic in origin sounds dangerously close to what those folks were doing in Matthew 12:22-37.

Speaking in tongues is a phenomenon that does occur in religions outside Christianity. I have heard or read somewhere that it is practiced by those in Voodoo. I have heard (don't know if it is true) that it has been done by Mormons.

Speaking with tongues was something that had been happening in Corinth before the Gospel ever came there. When people wanted to inquire of the Oracle of Delphi, they were brought to her, she spoke with tongues, and then someone interpreted it for the inquirer. Since this was obviously part of heathen worship outside of the Gospel of Christ, some folks might think the same thing about the experience when they hear of it happening in Christian churches.

[Sam]

BTW, Jesus also said how people would recognize His followers. John 13:35.

Does that still work today? ;)

That's how to tell the professors from the possessors in 2009.

[Sam]

Yes, I'm familiar with their "that which is perfect" argument, but it doesnt hold water.

Jesus said in Mark 16: "these signs shall follow them that believe...."
The signs were for the believers... and not just "for a while until the Word of God was perfected".

The were for the believers, period. Jesus put no time limitation on it. As long as there are believers, as long as there is a church, those words apply to his believers. Any time-restriction people try to place on those words is simply artificial.

When Jesus comes.

I agree with this.
As long as there are believers we can expect to see those signs of Mark 16.
As long as there are imperfections in the church we can expect to have the gifts of the Spirit.

[Sam]

If you accept Mark 16:9-20 as inspired.



Will the church cease to exist then?

I accept Mark 16:9-20 as inspired.
At the rapture, the church will be perfected and will no longer need the gifts of the Spirit as spoken of in Romans chapter 12 and 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 nor the ministry gifts of Epehsians chapter 4.
That's my opinion.

[Sam]

I've always taken it to mean they were not one of his 12 disciples.

nor of the 70

[Hoovie]

Folks, I will join this discussion again in a few days... unfortunately, my schedule will not allow me to be here for a few days. :(

[shag]

Folks, I will join this discussion again in a few days... unfortunately, my schedule will not allow me to be here for a few days. :(

Well, maybe we can drag it out a few days. ( I wish I had that good problem of a busy work schedule right now.)






Anybody know anybody that has the gift of healing?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Well, maybe we can drag it out a few days. ( I wish I had that good problem of a busy work schedule right now.)






Anybody know anybody that has the gift of healing?


The Lord has used my Dad in this gift.

One lady healed from cancer. He speaks of her, but she was a visitor to his church and I never met the woman. He still speaks of her from time to time.

This happened a couple of years ago.