Trinitarian belief?

[jimmyrrs]

I have read it, tried to study the background, and am still missing something in their beleif.

Is there one on AFF that can put it in simple terms HOW they come by this thinking.

I have a feel for what most trinitarians beleive. The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

1-God 3-manifestations God - the father of all creation God - his spirit (the holy ghost) God - the son (fleshly form).

Where does this thinking come from?

[jimmyrrs]

I stand by Colossians 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[Innocuous]

Where did you get your definition of "trinity"?

[jimmyrrs]

Where did you get your definition of "trinity"?

Catholic Ency. and speaking to a former Catholic.

[jimmyrrs]

Where did you get your definition of "trinity"?

Is it wrong?

[Innocuous]

It sounds truncated and simplistic as there is no mention of hypostatic unions and such. Sounded a little like a straw man definition. But I don't want to argue, I'll leave it at that.

[Jermyn Davidson]

My Trinitarian COGIC Pastor does not believe your definition of the Trinity.

If you were to ask several different Oneness Apostolics to explain the Godhead to you, in laymen's terms, you would get different answers.


This is an example of the same phenomenon that happens repeatedly:


human minds trying to grasp the ALMIGHTY GOD by the light of their religious light bulb. Often that light is shaded by their own experiences.



Jesus is the CHRIST, the SON of the LIVING GOD!

[jimmyrrs]

It sounds truncated and simplistic as there is no mention of hypostatic unions and such. Sounded a little like a straw man definition. But I don't want to argue, I'll leave it at that.

I don't want to argue. I want to try and understand where the thinking comes from. To help me better understand them.

I was hoping someone one AFF could put it in simple terms.

[jimmyrrs]

My Trinitarian COGIC Pastor does not believe your definition of the Trinity.

If you were to ask several different Oneness Apostolics to explain the Godhead to you, in laymen's terms, you would get different answers.


This is an example of the same phenomenon that happens repeatedly:


human minds trying to grasp the ALMIGHTY GOD by the light of their religious light bulb. Often that light is shaded by their own experiences.



Jesus is the CHRIST, the SON of the LIVING GOD!

Is it possible for you to explain the trinitarian beleif in simple terms. As I have said, this is for me to have a better understanding of there beleif.

[Sam]

An early definition of the word "person" is "mask" or "role." It refers to the mask an actor would hold in front of his face to play a role in a play. In other words, God has three masks that He wears or three roles that He fulfills.

[Shawn]

Hey Sam.

To me that seems more like a definition of a manifestation.

Person seems more disticnt.

3 Persons.....3=1......more like a committee.

3 manifestations to me is the one God revealing himself 3 different ways.

[Timmy]

I don't know anything about God, for certain. Funny how so many people do, and so many different and conflicting things. Funny.

[Justin]

Hey Sam.

To me that seems more like a definition of a manifestation.

Person seems more disticnt.

3 Persons.....3=1......more like a committee.

3 manifestations to me is the one God revealing himself 3 different ways.

Here is a brief explanation of the Trinity:

God exists in three persons, each having their own wills and love for each other. They are co-equal and co-eternal. They are each God, but they are distinct from each other:

http://wikipediaadventures.com/media/ShieldTrinityScutumFideiEnglish.png

[TRFrance]

I don't want to argue. I want to try and understand where the thinking comes from. To help me better understand them.

I was hoping someone one AFF could put it in simple terms.

Not to sound rude or anything but...
Why not just use Google?

There's a lot of information readily available there, in seconds.
That's usually a good place to start.

[jimmyrrs]

Not to sound rude or anything but...
Why not just use Google?

There's a lot of information readily available there, in seconds.
That's usually a good place to start.

I did go to the internet, catholic ency, and a former catholic.

I have 5 co-workers that say they beleive in the trinity, yet when I ask them to explain it to me in very simple terms I get the run around. I get the feeling they don't know how to explain it.

I know what I have read about it yet it is not easy to understand where it comes from.

That's why I was hoping someone on here could tell me.

[jimmyrrs]

Here is a brief explanation of the Trinity:

God exists in three persons, each having their own wills and love for each other. They are co-equal and co-eternal. They are each God, but they are distinct from each other:

http://wikipediaadventures.com/media/ShieldTrinityScutumFideiEnglish.png

Are you saying that they beleive in 1 God that has been split into 3rds.

Example 1 God, split into the 1/3 Father, 1/3 Son & 1/3 HG, all being different persons. That is where I'm having problems. To me a person is 1.
I understand manifestation but I'm not clear on their thinking.

Do they beleive in three Gods?

[Norman]

To me the doctrine of the Trinity is confusion. There is no understanding of it; in fact many will say you have to accept it by faith.
The main thing they want to ignore, and even say we misrepresent their belief, is that three distinct persons, each being God, is three Gods.
Someone once tried to convince me that "one God" doesn't mean one individual that is God, but means something like one team; there are three Gods, but they operate as one. I don't think that's what most Trinitarians believe.
My son asked a man to explain the Trinity to him, and he proceeded to explain exactly what we believe. To some, the word "Trinity" just means the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God; they don't really believe there are three thrones in heaven.

[jimmyrrs]

To me the doctrine of the Trinity is confusion. There is no understanding of it; in fact many will say you have to accept it by faith.
The main thing they want to ignore, and even say we misrepresent their belief, is that three distinct persons, each being God, is three Gods.
Someone once tried to convince me that "one God" doesn't mean one individual that is God, but means something like one team; there are three Gods, but they operate as one. I don't think that's what most Trinitarians believe.
My son asked a man to explain the Trinity to him, and he proceeded to explain exactly what we believe. To some, the word "Trinity" just means the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God; they don't really believe there are three thrones in heaven.

Yes I have talked to some that say that. But as you pointed out it's hard to pin them down and most of the time they can not explain it.

[Norman]

Trinitarians usually want to define "person" by what a person does, not what a person actually is.

[Norman]

Another thing, some Trinitarians seem to think a "manifestation" is something less than real. The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is as real as anything gets.

[TRFrance]

I did go to the internet, catholic ency, and a former catholic.

I have 5 co-workers that say they beleive in the trinity, yet when I ask them to explain it to me in very simple terms I get the run around. I get the feeling they don't know how to explain it.

I know what I have read about it yet it is not easy to understand where it comes from.

That's why I was hoping someone on here could tell me.
Try this, Jim
"TRINITARIANISM: DEFINITION AND HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT"
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch11.htm

This is written by from David K Bernard, and is a part of his book
The Oneness of God, which is available online here:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Top.htm

I think he explains it pretty well.
Hope that helps.

-----
You might also find this book an interesting read:
If Ye Know These Things, by Ross Drysdale
book available online here at:

http://inglisfpc.com/bookcopy/inglisfpc.org%20copy/indexx.htm

[jimmyrrs]

Another thing, some Trinitarians seem to think a "manifestation" is something less that real. The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is as real as anything gets.

The very best I can come up with is the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD to explain who and what the Christian God really is. From what I can tell the trinity is all man made. No backing of the Word of God in any form. Yet so many people say they beleive it.

How & Why do they beleive it?

[jimmyrrs]

Try this, Jim
"TRINITARIANISM: DEFINITION AND HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT"
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch11.htm

This is written by from David K Bernard, and is a part of his book
The Oneness of God, which is available online here:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Top.htm

I think he explains it pretty well.
Hope that helps.

-----
You might also find this book an interesting read:
If Ye Know These Things, by Ross Drysdale
book available online here at:

http://inglisfpc.com/bookcopy/inglisfpc.org%20copy/indexx.htm

Thanks TRFrance.

[TRFrance]

Thanks TRFrance.
You're welcome.
Those are 2 of the best Godhead books you'll ever read.
I highly recommend them both.

Ross Drysdale in particular did a tremendous amount of research for his book; I think it's definitely a great blessing to the body of Christ, even though the book is not that well known.

God bless you in your studies.

[jimmyrrs]

Try this, Jim
"TRINITARIANISM: DEFINITION AND HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT"
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch11.htm

This is written by from David K Bernard, and is a part of his book
The Oneness of God, which is available online here:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Top.htm

I think he explains it pretty well.
Hope that helps.

-----
You might also find this book an interesting read:
If Ye Know These Things, by Ross Drysdale
book available online here at:

http://inglisfpc.com/bookcopy/inglisfpc.org%20copy/indexx.htm

TRFrance, I assume you are Apostolic/Pentecostal.

David Bernard is a great writer and I went back to read the section on trinitarianism again. He does explain it well. But two of the last things he states about it is according to their belief "We will see the Trinity or the Triune God in heaven. (Many trinitarians say we will see three bodies, which is outright tritheism. Others leave open the possibility that we will see only one Spirit being with one body. Most trinitarians do not know what they believe about this, and some frankly admit they do not know" and "The Godhead is a mystery. We must accept by faith the mystery of the Trinity despite its apparent contradictions."

You would think that they would have a better system of explaining it to people. Except there is not one. It's sad when people are in the dark.

I'll read the one by Ross Drysdale.

[TRFrance]

David Bernard is a great writer and I went back to read the section on trinitarianism again. He does explain it well. But two of the last things he states about it is according to their belief "We will see the Trinity or the Triune God in heaven. (Many trinitarians say we will see three bodies, which is outright tritheism. Others leave open the possibility that we will see only one Spirit being with one body. Most trinitarians do not know what they believe about this, and some frankly admit they do not know" and "The Godhead is a mystery. We must accept by faith the mystery of the Trinity despite its apparent contradictions."

You would think that they would have a better system of explaining it to people. Except there is not one. It's sad when people are in the dark.

for the most part, most trinitarians cant comprehensively explain their doctrine. They just believe it because it's considered the "standard" godhead doctrine in Christendom.

But when you ask them a tough question and they get stuck, or they see a blatant contradiction or inconsistency in their doctrine that you reveal to them in conversation, they usually fall back on something like: "well, it's a mystery" or "our finite minds cant fully comprehend God anyway"..... and then they revert back to their previous belief that the Trinity just MUST be true.

To me, it's kinda sad.
...pathetic, in some ways.

[mizpeh]

You're welcome.
Those are 2 of the best Godhead books you'll ever read.
I highly recommend them both.

Ross Drysdale in particular did a tremendous amount of research for his book; I think it's definitely a great blessing to the body of Christ, even though the book is not that well known.

God bless you in your studies.

TR,

Why do you believe in the Oneness of the Godhead? and why don't you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity?

[TRFrance]

TR,

Why do you believe in the Oneness of the Godhead? and why don't you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity?

Well, there could be a long answer, and a short answer to that question.
Time doesnt permit me to get into the long version, so to keep it simple, I'll just go with the short one.

I don't believe in the Trinity because the doctrine is not in the Bible.
---------


To elaborate a bit more...

the doctrine of an eternal son (an essential component of the Trinity doctrine), is not biblical. The bible teaches a begottten son, not an eternally pre-existent son.

Without an "eternally preexistent Son", the Trinity doctrine does not hold up.

The doctrine of 3 separate persons is absurd, since the Holy Spirit is not a separate person from God the Father. The Holy Spirit is the God's very divine nature itself, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost is an impartation of God's divine nature, not a separate person within the Godhead.

Without the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) being a separate person from the Father in the Godhead, the Trinity doctrine collapses.

[mizpeh]

Well, there could be a long answer, and a short answer to that question.
Time doesnt permit me to get into the long version, so to keep it simple, I'll just go with the short one.

I don't believe in the Trinity because the doctrine is not in the Bible.
---------


To elaborate a bit more...

the doctrine of an eternal son (an essential component of the Trinity doctrine), is not biblical. The bible teaches a begottten son, not an eternally pre-existent son.

Without an "eternally preexistent Son", the Trinity doctrine does not hold up.

The doctrine of 3 separate persons is absurd, since the Holy Spirit is not a separate person from God the Father. The Holy Spirit is the God's very divine nature itself, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost is an impartation of God's divine nature, not a separate person within the Godhead.

Without the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) being a separate person from the Father in the Godhead, the Trinity doctrine collapses.

Thanks, TR.

I agree with all of your points; a Son begotten from eternity is an oxymoron and a change in the natural usage of words ( the words have to be bent or twisted to read something else into them than what is commonly understood), the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly taught in the NT but developed over hundreds of years (for any monotheistic Jew, ie: the apostles, a revelation of God as a Trinity in Being would have been monumental and declared outright and explicitly IMO. Jesus himself had ample time to explain that he was part of a Trinity without leaving any doubt), and God is holy and God is a Spirit, why make the Father anything other than the Holy Spirit?

[Justin]

Are you saying that they beleive in 1 God that has been split into 3rds.

Example 1 God, split into the 1/3 Father, 1/3 Son & 1/3 HG, all being different persons. That is where I'm having problems. To me a person is 1.
I understand manifestation but I'm not clear on their thinking.


Yes and no.

They split God in to thirds, but in their mind (the Trinitarians), each third is fully God.

Do they beleive in three Gods?

Yes and no.

Yes because if you separate God in to thirds, say their all separate and distinct from each other (IE: God the Father, God the Son and finally, God the Holy Spirit)

No, because they would be indirect violation of Duet 6:4.

They simply confuse "person" for "manifestation".

[Shawn]

I don't believe in the trinity either.....it isn't biblical from my studies. I'm not infallable but I think trinty conflicts with Isaiah 9:6 and many other scriptures.


I alos see a huge difference between maifestations and persons.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Maybe this might help.
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/trinhistory.htm

[Scott Hutchinson]

From the Catholic church.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

[Scott Hutchinson]

Another article.
http://www.antipas.org/books/trinity/trinity1.html

[jimmyrrs]

Maybe this might help.
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/trinhistory.htm

From the Catholic church.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

Another article.
http://www.antipas.org/books/trinity/trinity1.html

Ok Scott, now you have done it. :nutso

I have read the New Advent before, and was looking over the first one, when I notice you had sent a 3rd post, Antipas.

The last post is like it says "In all Scripture, there is nothing to justify this absurd and self-contradictory mizmaze."

Amen. LOL

[Scott Hutchinson]

I mean no ill to anyone,this is for sake of info.
http://www.endtime-truth.com/articles1.html

[jimmyrrs]

I mean no ill to anyone,this is for sake of info.
http://www.endtime-truth.com/articles1.html

Keep it coming I'll read it and try to understand. LOL

[Jermyn Davidson]

Well, there could be a long answer, and a short answer to that question.
Time doesnt permit me to get into the long version, so to keep it simple, I'll just go with the short one.

I don't believe in the Trinity because the doctrine is not in the Bible.
---------


To elaborate a bit more...

the doctrine of an eternal son (an essential component of the Trinity doctrine), is not biblical. The bible teaches a begottten son, not an eternally pre-existent son.

Without an "eternally preexistent Son", the Trinity doctrine does not hold up.

The doctrine of 3 separate persons is absurd, since the Holy Spirit is not a separate person from God the Father. The Holy Spirit is the God's very divine nature itself, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost is an impartation of God's divine nature, not a separate person within the Godhead.

Without the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) being a separate person from the Father in the Godhead, the Trinity doctrine collapses.



St. John 1:2 implicates the pre-existence of the Son.

I believe in the eternal pre-existence of Jesus Christ.

[jimmyrrs]

St. John 1:2 implicates the pre-existence of the Son.

I believe in the eternal pre-existence of Jesus Christ.

Jermyn, Jesus (the human form) did not come along until the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

[jimmyrrs]

St. John 1:2 implicates the pre-existence of the Son.

I believe in the eternal pre-existence of Jesus Christ.

Also in Matthew 1:18 & 20, it tells us it is the HG by which Mary conceived. Mat 1:21 tells us his name. Jesus.

God robed in flesh.

[TRFrance]

St. John 1:2 implicates the pre-existence of the Son.

I believe in the eternal pre-existence of Jesus Christ.
You might believe in that, Jermyn. But God doesn't. (Be careful that your Trinitarian C.O.G.I.C. pals dont start to corrupt your godhead theology.)

Jesus' pre-existence was as the Word, before he was made flesh.
However, the Word was not eternally preexistent within God. You have NO bible for that whatsoever, sir. It's just not there.

The Word was brought into being at a particular point in time, which is why the bible repeatedly refers to the begotten Son, not an eternally preexistent Son.

Hence, the Word was not eternally preexistent with God. If you have scripture to demonstrate otherwise, feel free to share it with us.

Trinitarians fail to grasp the distinction between an eternally preexistent Son (a man-made concept) vs. a begotten Son (a reality repeatedly spelled out in Scripture)

[mizpeh]

You might believe in that, Jermyn. But God doesn't. (Be careful that your Trinitarian C.O.G.I.C. pals dont start to corrupt your godhead theology.)

Jesus' pre-existence was as the Word, before he was made flesh.
However, the Word was not eternally preexistent within God. You have NO bible for that whatsoever, sir. It's just not there. The Word was brought into being at a particular point in time, which is why the bible repeatedly refers to the begotten Son, not an eternally preexistent Son.

Hence, the Word was not eternally preexistent with God. If you have scripture to demonstrate otherwise, feel free to share it with us.

Trinitarians fail to grasp the distinction between an eternally preexistent Son (a man-made concept) vs. a begotten Son (a reality repeatedly spelled out in Scripture)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[TRFrance]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I'm familiar with the verse, but that verse doesn't indicate eternal preexistence.

(Preexistence beginning at a particular point in time is very different from eternal preexistence. )

I'm not certain what your point is, exactly... but feel free to clarify.

[Hoovie]

Here is a brief explanation of the Trinity:

God exists in three persons, each having their own wills and love for each other. They are co-equal and co-eternal. They are each God, but they are distinct from each other:

http://wikipediaadventures.com/media/ShieldTrinityScutumFideiEnglish.png

As a Oneness believer I am OK with this diagram.

[Scott Hutchinson]

This is how The Trinies explain The Eternal Sonship doctrine.
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1359-was-jesus-the-son-of-god-eternally

[Scott Hutchinson]

This can help.
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/moreoneness.htm

[Jermyn Davidson]

You might believe in that, Jermyn. But God doesn't. (Be careful that your Trinitarian C.O.G.I.C. pals dont start to corrupt your godhead theology.)

Jesus' pre-existence was as the Word, before he was made flesh.
However, the Word was not eternally preexistent within God. You have NO bible for that whatsoever, sir. It's just not there.

The Word was brought into being at a particular point in time, which is why the bible repeatedly refers to the begotten Son, not an eternally preexistent Son.

Hence, the Word was not eternally preexistent with God. If you have scripture to demonstrate otherwise, feel free to share it with us.

Trinitarians fail to grasp the distinction between an eternally preexistent Son (a man-made concept) vs. a begotten Son (a reality repeatedly spelled out in Scripture)


Sir,

The verse", "the same was in the beginning with God"-- how does that not point to the eternality of the Son?

The Creation account (God spoke the world into existence, but Jesus created the world.)

I don't suggest that Christ existed as a man eternally.

However, I do state that Jesus has always been and will always be.





BYW, thanks for looking out for me, doctrinally. Truth is very important.

[pelathais]

I have read it, tried to study the background, and am still missing something in their beleif.

Is there one on AFF that can put it in simple terms HOW they come by this thinking.

I have a feel for what most trinitarians beleive. The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

1-God 3-manifestations God - the father of all creation God - his spirit (the holy ghost) God - the son (fleshly form).

Where does this thinking come from?
As others have referred to, I'm certain that there are just about as many explanations of the doctrine of the Trinity as there are people who would care to define it. I've known ardent Trinitarians whose concept of God(s) honestly struck me (and and even many Trinitarians) as tri-theistic at least if not outright polytheism.

Most Trinitarians though, with whom I've discussed it with will listen to my Oneness view of God and say, "Yup... that's the Trinity!" Go figure. It's really the hard-core "apologist" who will insist upon the creedal definitions, and most Christians haven't got it in their hearts to be that harsh. Again, this is just from my observations.

Tertullian is generally credited with the first formulations of the doctrine - and he invented over 100 new Latin words to do it. Most of the words had been in use previously but had dropped out of the language. One such word was "Persona." He used this to describe the distinctions between the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.

The word didn't mean "person" in the way that we use the word today. Rather, it was an Etruscan word for the theater masks that a single actor would change from during a performance. This is why Dr. Walter Martin "shushed" Cal Beisner during that famous televised debate several years ago. Beisner was saying that the "Oneness God" was a "God who wore masks..." and was implicitly deceitful. Martin was a little more savvy and didn't want Beisner setting them up for good come back from the Oneness side.

God is complex. Our attempts to get a handle on those complexities, however, should always be done with humility and we should be careful we don't fall prey to the same arrogance that seems to have overtaken many in the Trinitarian camp. We can be right about many things, but lose it all because our spirit wasn't right.

[Nina]

Most Trinitarians though, with whom I've discussed it with will listen to my Oneness view of God and say, "Yup... that's the Trinity!" Go figure. It's really the hard-core "apologist" who will insist upon the creedal definitions, and most Christians haven't got it in their hearts to be that harsh. Again, this is just from my observations.



Brother Pelathais,

It's great to hear from You again.
You put my thoughts into better words than I can.

Nina

[pelathais]

Brother Pelathais,

It's great to hear from You again.
You put my thoughts into better words than I can.

Nina
Great minds? :nutso

[mizpeh]

God is complex. Our attempts to get a handle on those complexities, however, should always be done with humility and we should be careful we don't fall prey to the same arrogance that seems to have overtaken many in the Trinitarian camp. We can be right about many things, but lose it all because our spirit wasn't right.

Well said....speaking the truth in love.

[Nina]

Great minds? :nutso

To the contrary Bro P.

My mind is dull as pewter compared to Your Stainless Steel brain.
But we have the same Spirit, I believe.