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rrford
01-19-2009, 12:55 PM
Over the last few months numerous Forums have had numerous threads discussing the emergent church, the charismatic movement, men that are no longer with us, the difference between the backslider and the reprobate. Sadly, very little positive is found in the journey many have taken down the road of apostasy.

It is incredibly intriguing to me to read the threads concerning methods of evangelism, how to do church, the adaptation of denominational church ideas and the embracing of worldliness in an attempt to have Apostolic revival.

It is incredibly saddening and disappointing to me to watch as the two main things that should identify us, namely our doctrine and our worship, are being redefined in many of our churches. Seeker friendly is one thing, seeker pacifying is something altogether different.

Recently, after a Sunday evening service while doing some studying, I begin to look deeper into an intriguing portion of scripture. II Chronicles 25 tells the interesting story of Amaziah, the son of Joash, who ascended to the throne when Joash died. A very unique testimony is given to him in verse 2 when it says "And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, but not with a perfect heart."

This statement leaves a rational thinking person to wonder how can one do that which is right in the sight of the Lord but not have a perfect heart? Further, what are the consequences of not serving the Lord with a perfect heart? I believe a further look into the actions and life of Amaziah is pertinent for the present day Apostolic ministry.

When ascending to the throne he makes the bold and justified move of slaying the servants who slew his father Joash. It was his way of judgment and making a statement that evil would not go unpunished. He also makes each man accountable for his own sin, according to God's words to Moses.

His next action is also commendable. He sets the armies of Judah in array and established leadership. He also hires other warriors from Israel to undergird in the areas where Judah may be weak. This seems to show incredible leadership ability and concern for Judah. Or does it? Evidently he had not taken the time to intercede before the Lord prior to taking the actions that he did.

The Lord sends a man of God to him to let him know that he needs to release these warriors from Israel. The reason? Because at that time God is not with Israel. A very strong point needs to be made here that even God, though He loved Israel, would not bless them in their sin even when they would be making the effort to help Judah.

Amaziah should have learned a valuable lesson from this but somehow his desire to orchestrate success his way caused him to totally miss the intent of God in sending the men of Ephraim away.

A short time after this Amaziah gathers his army and goes to the Valley of Salt and smites 10,000 children of Seir. One could easily say that Amaziah was defeating a worldly enemy and thus, would be pleasing to God. Indeed, God expects His people to have victory over their adversaries.

But Amaziah's ultimate downfall is found in his actions immediately following the great victory. Verse 14 states "Now it came to pass, after that Amaziah was come from the slaughter of the Edomites, that he brought the gods of the children of Seir, and set them up to be his gods, and bowed down himself before them, and burned incense unto them."

Incredible! A man who had made a mistake and been corrected by God, and had taken the correction, now turns to the gods of the enemy he had just defeated. What was Amaziah thinking?? How could he turn his back so quickly on the God who had brought him the victory to worship gods of no power? No doubt in his mind the obedience he did give to God should justify the wrong actions he was now taking.

Most importantly for us to observe and take notice of is the question tucked away in verse 15 that God pointedly asks Amaziah: "Wherefore the anger of the Lord was kindled against Amaziah, and he sent unto him a prophet, which said unto him, Why hast thou sought after the gods of the people, which could not deliver their own people out of thine hand?"

Amaziah, does it make any sense to worship gods that had no power to deliver the people you just slew? Does it make any sense to utilize the gods of a destroyed and lost people?

So what's the point? Apostolic Preacher, arise to the battle! There is indeed an enemy to be destroyed. But sadly I am afraid that some of the enemy is being confused as being an ally. Don't misunderstand. We need to reach out to everyone we can. The person is not the problem. The system is the problem.

We must be careful to not embrace the philosophies and methods that do not even bring salvation to the people we are borrowing them from. Is it possible that God's anger is being kindled in this hour against men who are doing right in the sight of the Lord but not with a perfect heart? Could it be that too many are going to the enemy’s camp and realizing a victory but also lay hold onto some of the non-saving, non-powerful gods of the enemy?

Again, don't misunderstand me. I realize some of the methods of denominational Christianity may have merit. But if we are not careful, and we do see it happening, we will lose the ability to divide between our God and the gods of a failing Christianity.

In all sincerity, if the method and means can't even save those who use them, then let us be incredibly cautious of what makes its way into our camp with the spoil.

Yes, Amaziah was victorious. And some of our churches have seen some modicum of success with some of these methods. But as Joash, the king of Israel, told him, "You have smitten the Edomites but your heart is lifted up and you take the credit and are bragging about what you have done." In other words Amaziah’s desire was not for Judah to be victorious but rather for Amaziah himself to be praised. God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart. He knows whether one wants the methods for the cause of a revival of souls or because one wants the accolades of success.

This is doing that which is right in the sight of the Lord but not with a perfect heart. Ultimately doing all of the right in the eyes of the Lord will come to nothing if the heart is not perfect.

Sam
01-19-2009, 01:07 PM
good post!!!

Pressing-On
01-19-2009, 01:13 PM
Good post, rrford!!!

I posted this before, but your words bring it to remembrance for me once again.

Several people were all excited and kept telling me to read "God Chasers". My further comments are not a reflection on the author. It is my personal experience.

I purchased the book and somewhere in the middle I felt very motivated and dissatisfied with what I wasn't currently doing in my life.

I put the book down and entered into prayer. The Lord was blessing, I was in His presence!! I said, "God, I need more than what I have right now. I need to do more!!!!"

He stopped that prayer meeting like solid brass to heaven! He then spoke to me and said, "You cannot get ahead of where I am taking you."

I learned a very big lesson that day!!! We must follow His direction and His leading no matter what it looks like to others!

"In your patience possess ye your souls"

Aquila
01-19-2009, 01:19 PM
Great post! It's very true, one can be trying to do that which is right in the sight of the Lord but not have a perfect heart. Interestingly, this is what the emergent churches and the relevant church movements say about the traditional denominations and current church structures.

I think we need to cease fire and ask ourselves...

What does the Bible say about methods of evangelism and how to do church?

We know that in the first century, in fact during the events recorded in Acts, the Christian church turned the world upside down. They swept the Roman empire by storm. What were their methods of evangelism? How did they conduct "church" in New Testament times? Are the ideas behind the emergent and relevant churches truly "new" or are they an effort to get back to Bible basics?

These are important questions. Because if we're not careful, we'll find ourselves zealously defending a current and traditional church system that isn't "biblical" for the sake of the traditional church system itself. We have nothing to fear from the emergents and the relevants. If their movement is of God, it will endure. If not, nothing will become of it. There's room for different methods, types, and models of church. One size doesn't fit all. I know folks that would wilt and die in an emergent or relevant setting because they enjoy the tradition Pentecostal style church service. However, I also know folks who would wilt and die in our traditional Pentecostal style and model of church. I think we should pray for those who lean emergent or relevant. Paul wrote....

"15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice." - Philippians 1:15-18

They might preach in informal settings in blue jeans where the members are eating doughnuts and drinking coffee during the Bible study. Or they might preach in suits behind an "old fashioned pulpit" where the congregants dress in traditional Pentecostal fashion. Either way, let is rejoice in that Christ is preached.

Thoughts?

Rhoni
01-19-2009, 01:22 PM
Yes, Amaziah was victorious. And some of our churches have seen some modicum of success with some of these methods. But as Joash, the king of Israel, told him, "You have smitten the Edomites but your heart is lifted up and you take the credit and are bragging about what you have done." In other words Amaziah’s desire was not for Judah to be victorious but rather for Amaziah himself to be praised. God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart. He knows whether one wants the methods for the cause of a revival of souls or because one wants the accolades of success.

Excellent Post Bro. RRFord!

Digging4Truth
01-19-2009, 01:29 PM
Today's methods are borrowed as well... we've just gotten used to them.

Aquila
01-19-2009, 01:35 PM
Today's methods are borrowed as well... we've just gotten used to them.

Very true. Even the cherished "altar call", which I love, was borrowed from the Evangelicals. And the traditional "sermon" comes from the Greek Philosophers.

Ron
01-19-2009, 01:40 PM
Thank you rrford for another great post!

ManOfWord
01-19-2009, 01:44 PM
Excellent post!

However, from my perspective, the methods are never the problem. The substitution of a method for Jesus Christ IS! What I mean is that it is not the system, perse, that is the problem...it is the absence of Jesus Christ that is the problem. Anything that doesn't have Jesus at the center will have a short "shelf life."

Anything that has Jesus at the center is properly aligned. The important thing is getting people to Jesus. I firmly believe in being relative to "today." However, if my "relativity" removes Jesus and replaces Him with something else, then I have become irrelevant, IMO.

We may be saying the same thing here. I am for different methods but against the removal of Jesus Christ!!! :D

Digging4Truth
01-19-2009, 01:47 PM
Very true. Even the cherished "altar call", which I love, was borrowed from the Evangelicals. And the traditional "sermon" comes from the Greek Philosophers.

But the one consistent theme is...

As always... convention is king.

ManOfWord
01-19-2009, 01:55 PM
Jesus is the only thing which cannot be messed with. Everything else is learned from somewhere else. Things we learn may not be bad, but they cannot take the place of Jesus Christ. :D

Aquila
01-19-2009, 02:03 PM
I've got a question that I've never really asked or heard answered.

Biblically speaking, what is the purpose of the "church gathering" or what we might call a "church service"?

If it's purpose is properly defined, then form will follow function. For example, if people feel the purpose is mass praise and worship, the church service will revolve around the music. (Not that music and praise is a bad thing, just giving an example.) If we properly define the purpose for having church the proper form will be obvious. Here's something Paul wrote about first century church gatherings:

I Corinthians 14:26-29 (NIV)
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

First we see that all were allowed to bring a song, word of instruction, revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. However, all these things were to be done for the edification of the church. First, if one delivered a message in tongues it was to be by two or at most three, and one should interpret. If there wasn't one present with the gift of interpretation the individual was to remain silent and pray. Paul states that two or three prophets (anointed men of God) should speak and lead the teaching. The rest should weigh carefully what these men teach. If a revelation comes to one of the church members, the one one teaching should find a place to stop and allow that second brother to share his revelation. This was to allow all to prophesy in turn under the guidance of two or at most three prophets (anointed men of God). This allows all to prophesy and all to be instructed and encouraged. All who prophesied were subject to the two to three elders leading the meeting. No man's gift was squandered on a pew while one man did all the talking. However, there was to be order to the meeting and turns were to be taken and people respected.

What form of "church" would accommodate the instructions of Paul?