View Full Version : Is the Holiness Movement Dead?
www.cresourcei.org/hmovement.html - 49k
Written by Keith Drury
"We need to admit to each other that the holiness movement is dead. We have never had a funeral. And we still have the body upstairs in bed. In fact, we still keep it dressed up and still even talk about the movement as if it were alive. But the holiness movement—as a movement—is dead. Yes, I recognize that there are many wonderful holiness people around. And people are still getting entirely sanctified here and there. But as a movement, I think we need to admit we are dead. The sooner we admit it, the better off we’ll be.
We have a holiness heritage. We have holiness denominations. We have holiness organizations. We have holiness doctrines. We even have holiness colleges, but we no longer have a holiness movement. I, for one, lament the death of the holiness movement. But pretending we are alive as a movement will not make it so. In fact, it may be the greatest barrier to the emergence of a new holiness movement."
Do you believe the holiness movement is dead?
mizpeh
01-21-2009, 09:34 AM
Do you believe the holiness movement is dead?
What is the "holiness movement"? What defines it?
From Wikipidia
The doctrine of the Conservative Holiness Movement varies slightly from group to group; however, the common thread between them is the belief that the carnal nature (or sin nature, depravity) can be cleansed (eradicated) through faith by the power of the Holy Spirit by one who has received salvation from God through the confession of sin, repentance and faith (See also holiness movement). This belief is also called, "entire sanctification" or a "second work of grace" that enables one to live a life set apart from the world.
The fundamental differences between its denominations and the mainstream (liberal) holiness movement in general are what define it as the Conservative Holiness Movement. These fundamental differences include but are not limited to standards of dress, fashion, and entertainment. In many cases the liberal churches are no longer a reflection of what they once were. Many even question their basic doctrines and beliefs that were once held as fundamental. The Conservative movement strives to remain true to Biblical doctrines and standards.
Innocuous
01-21-2009, 09:39 AM
What is the "holiness movement"? What defines it?
Yeah, sounds like he's talking about Wesleyan type holiness.
edjen01
01-21-2009, 09:39 AM
What is the "holiness movement"? What defines it?
exactly?
how many people does it take to start a "movement"? 1..2..100...1 million..???
What was the holiness movement made up of?
Are Oneness Pentecostals still "holiness" people?
Is the concept of holiness unimportant to us?
Is ole time holiness preaching DOA?
edjen01
01-21-2009, 09:43 AM
From Wikipidia
The doctrine of the Conservative Holiness Movement varies slightly from group to group; however, the common thread between them is the belief that the carnal nature (or sin nature, depravity) can be cleansed (eradicated) through faith by the power of the Holy Spirit by one who has received salvation from God through the confession of sin, repentance and faith (See also holiness movement). This belief is also called, "entire sanctification" or a "second work of grace" that enables one to live a life set apart from the world.
The fundamental differences between its denominations and the mainstream (liberal) holiness movement in general are what define it as the Conservative Holiness Movement. These fundamental differences include but are not limited to standards of dress, fashion, and entertainment. In many cases the liberal churches are no longer a reflection of what they once were. Many even question their basic doctrines and beliefs that were once held as fundamental. The Conservative movement strives to remain true to Biblical doctrines and standards.
Wikipidia....really?? thats a reliable source??
not sure I want to get my facts about a subject from public opinion.
Sister Alvear
01-21-2009, 09:43 AM
no, it is not dead...I still believe in clean living! ha...
Love you folks.
*AQuietPlace*
01-21-2009, 09:44 AM
I think this minister means something entirely different by the word 'holiness' than most Apostolics do. Particularly conservative Apostolics.
No, it's most definitely not dead... in many areas it's going very strong. Way too strong in some places. :D
Jack Shephard
01-21-2009, 09:47 AM
I don't think the Holiness Movement is dead, cause it is in action. But there is a difference in the Holiness Movement and people that follow a "holiness dress code." The leaders of The Ramp out of Alabama are certainly a holiness movement, but most of the OTP's would call them liberal, sinners, or whatever. Holiness is a condition of what is in the heart not so much the condition of what is on the hinnie. I know people in this movement that look holiness on the outside, but the conditon of the heart is certainly not a holiness lifestyle.
Sister Alvear
01-21-2009, 09:48 AM
Are Oneness Pentecostals still "holiness" people?
Is the concept of holiness unimportant to us?
Is ole time holiness preaching DOA?
what does DOA stand for?
deltaguitar
01-21-2009, 09:51 AM
I think the holiness movement as described is dead. However, there will always be folks trying to add to the word of God.
We see a lot of the same confusion of the holiness movement in the charismatic and pentecostal movements. Folks are always trying to find a newer and easier way to live for God. We will constantly see these fads and trends happen as long as people don't have a strong understanding and hunger for the word of God.
There is a book by Dr. Harry Ironside, Holiness: The False and the True that describes his conversion from the holiness movement and the confusion that he suffered because of the teachings of the movement.
Here is a link to some of his writings.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Harry_Ironside/holiness.htm
edjen01
01-21-2009, 09:55 AM
Are Oneness Pentecostals still "holiness" people?
Is the concept of holiness unimportant to us?
Is ole time holiness preaching DOA?
not sure Oneness has anything to do with holiness. I know lots of different groups who profess a level of holiness.
When you say "us"....who are you refering to?
IMHO...I hope that most ole time style of preaching is dead or dying. I don't need to be spat on to feel God...i don't need to be screamed at to hear the truth...i don't care if a preacher can walk on the backs of pews...stand on the pulpit/organ...or make the viens in his forehead pop-out. to much style over substance....even if it is bad style.
*AQuietPlace*
01-21-2009, 09:58 AM
what does DOA stand for?
Dead on arrival?
deltaguitar
01-21-2009, 09:59 AM
I don't think the Holiness Movement is dead, cause it is in action. But there is a difference in the Holiness Movement and people that follow a "holiness dress code." The leaders of The Ramp out of Alabama are certainly a holiness movement, but most of the OTP's would call them liberal, sinners, or whatever. Holiness is a condition of what is in the heart not so much the condition of what is on the hinnie. I know people in this movement that look holiness on the outside, but the conditon of the heart is certainly not a holiness lifestyle.
When I think of the holiness movement I think of the groups that predate the Azuza street revivals. There are always revivals happening among people who are thirsting after Christ and want to be more like him.
People need to realize that sanctification is also a work of the Holy Spirit. Trying to do the work ourselves will only end in failure and frustration. With the proper faith and trust in Jesus and his dying on the cross as our source of sanctification we allow him to move and work in our life in ways that we don't realize. If we start trying to help him along then our flesh will start to get in the way and we will find ourselves once more heading down the wrong path.
mizpeh
01-21-2009, 10:03 AM
From Wikipidia
The doctrine of the Conservative Holiness Movement varies slightly from group to group; however, the common thread between them is the belief that the carnal nature (or sin nature, depravity) can be cleansed (eradicated) through faith by the power of the Holy Spirit by one who has received salvation from God through the confession of sin, repentance and faith (See also holiness movement). This belief is also called, "entire sanctification" or a "second work of grace" that enables one to live a life set apart from the world.
The fundamental differences between its denominations and the mainstream (liberal) holiness movement in general are what define it as the Conservative Holiness Movement. These fundamental differences include but are not limited to standards of dress, fashion, and entertainment. In many cases the liberal churches are no longer a reflection of what they once were. Many even question their basic doctrines and beliefs that were once held as fundamental. The Conservative movement strives to remain true to Biblical doctrines and standards.
I don't think the Bible teaches we can "eradicate" the sinful nature but we can try to mortify it through the Spirit. This is the pursuit of inner holiness, the separation from sin and starts with maintaining purity of the heart.
I think we have to maintain an attitude of being a pilgrim in the world. This world is not my home. We can use the things of this world but not hold dearly to these things for our conversation is above. As for "worldly" fashion, dress, and entertainment...we have to go by what is godly in all these things. "What would Jesus do?".
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
mizpeh
01-21-2009, 10:05 AM
Conservative holiness in the article you quoted is what the UPC stands for in the AOF.
I think it is dying because it is being redefined.
Yeah, sounds like he's talking about Wesleyan type holiness.
I have friends who are Bible Methodists, an organization that broke from Wesleyan Methodists in 1968...
They look more like 'us' than 'us', and believe in living separated lives. They lift their hands in worship, and say "Amen" outloud.
My friends are southern gospel singers and musicians, and when I attend their concerts I cannot tell the Pentecostals from Bible Methodists, Wesleyans, and some Nazarenes.
And they consider themselves holiness folk... :snowing
RandyWayne
01-21-2009, 10:16 AM
I think the holiness movement as described is dead. However, there will always be folks trying to add to the word of God.
We see a lot of the same confusion of the holiness movement in the charismatic and pentecostal movements. Folks are always trying to find a newer and easier way to live for God. We will constantly see these fads and trends happen as long as people don't have a strong understanding and hunger for the word of God.
There is a book by Dr. Harry Ironside, Holiness: The False and the True that describes his conversion from the holiness movement and the confusion that he suffered because of the teachings of the movement.
Here is a link to some of his writings.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Harry_Ironside/holiness.htm
Thanks for posting that link.
A short preview:
"Sunshine and Clouds"
"For some weeks after the eventful experience before described, I lived in a dreamily-happy state, rejoicing in my fancied sinlessness. One great idea had possession of my mind; and whether at work or in my leisure hours, I thought of little else than the wonderful event which had taken place. But gradually I began to 'come back to earth,' as it were. I was now employed in a photographic studio, where I associated with people of various tastes and habits, some of whom ridiculed, some tolerated, and others sympathized with, my radical views on things religious. Night after night I attended the meetings, speaking on the street and indoors, and I soon noticed (and doubtless others did too) that a change came over my 'testimonies.' Before, I had always held up Christ, and pointed the lost to Him. Now, almost imperceptibly, my own experience became my theme, and I held up myself as a striking example of consecration and holiness! This was the prevailing characteristic of the brief addresses made by most of the 'advanced' Christians in our company. The youngest in grace magnified Christ. The 'sanctified' magnified themselves. A favorite song will make this more manifest than any words of mine. It is still widely used in Army meetings, and finds a place in their Song or Hymn books. I give only one verse as a specimen:
"Some people I know don't live holy;
They battle with unconquered sin, Not daring to consecrate fully,
Or they full salvation would win.
With malice they have constant trouble, From doubting they long to be free;
With most things about them they grumble; Praise God, this is not so with ME!"
"Will the reader believe me when I say that I sang this wretched doggerel without a thought of the sinful pride to which it was giving expression? I considered it my duty to continually direct attention to 'my experience of full salvation,' as it was called. 'If you don't testify to it, you will lose the blessing,' was accepted as an axiom among us.
mfblume
01-21-2009, 11:44 AM
What does God intend us to understand by the term holiness? It simply means BELONGING TO, and in this case, belonging to God. And the way we live should reflect that. I believe in modesty, but I think it got way out of whack when standards that are not found in the bible, or are the result of misreading what the Bible does say, started to high-jack what holiness is supposed to mean.
Withdrawn
01-21-2009, 12:40 PM
What does God intend us to understand by the term holiness? It simply means BELONGING TO, and in this case, belonging to God. And the way we live should reflect that. I believe in modesty, but I think it got way out of whack when standards that are not found in the bible, or are the result of misreading what the Bible does say, started to high-jack what holiness is supposed to mean.Yep!
BobDylan
01-21-2009, 12:42 PM
I simply suggest that the holiness movement is not dead! :D
mizpeh
01-21-2009, 12:48 PM
I simply suggest that the holiness movement is not dead! :DIf you hang around AFF for awhile you may think it has long since been dead and buried!
ManOfWord
01-21-2009, 01:56 PM
I believe in holiness. I preach holiness. Holiness is two things: Separated FROM & Separated TO.
The debate is over the measure of separation. Most "holiness" organizations are built on the Greek idea of "duality." Flesh and Spirit. The SPIRIT is good and the FLESH is bad. Therefore, everything of the SPIRIT is good and everything of the FLESH is bad.
Jesus never said that. Jesus said that the SPIRIT is willing but the FLESH is weak. Jesus didn't create something that was bad. He made the world and our bodies to enjoy what He made for US!
However, we are to enjoy all He made for us, including the world and the things in it, withing the protective boundaries of His word. When principles of holiness take a backseat to the "specifics" of holiness, legalism reigns. There is a ditch on the other side of the holiness road as well.
When principles of holiness are above specifics of holiness, God loving, intelligent people will, hopefully make decisions based upon God's word.
I will "set no wicked thing before my eyes" has absolutely nothing to do with television. It has everything to do with moral or immoral input from ANY media.
In the OT, the ceremonial "law" had nothing to do with salvation and everything to do with being Jewish. It was NEVER, "How saved is someone?" It was, "How Jewish is someone?" If you were truly Jewish, you did XYZ. It was not that XYZ made you saved or was connected to our salvation.
The scripture doesn't say TV is bad! However, there are things on TV that ARE bad and we should not set them before our eyes/heart. The same with the written word, spoken word and illustrated word...there is no difference. I don't care whether you rent it or pay for a ticket. If it's wicked, it's wicked. If I preach that, I don't have to deal with the TV or Movie Theatre issue. :D
freeatlast
01-21-2009, 01:58 PM
Are Oneness Pentecostals still "holiness" people?
Is the concept of holiness unimportant to us?
Is ole time holiness preaching DOA?
I'd have to know if holiness means to you what it means to most OP's STANDARDS ??
freeatlast
01-21-2009, 02:00 PM
I think the holiness movement as described is dead. However, there will always be folks trying to add to the word of God.
We see a lot of the same confusion of the holiness movement in the charismatic and pentecostal movements. Folks are always trying to find a newer and easier way to live for God. We will constantly see these fads and trends happen as long as people don't have a strong understanding and hunger for the word of God.
There is a book by Dr. Harry Ironside, Holiness: The False and the True that describes his conversion from the holiness movement and the confusion that he suffered because of the teachings of the movement.
Here is a link to some of his writings.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Harry_Ironside/holiness.htm
I have that book and it also delt with the doctrine of sinless perfection.
MissBrattified
01-21-2009, 02:00 PM
Hmmmm. Since "holiness" was never all-encompassing, never consistent in application, and never even church-wide within Pentecostal ranks, I would say that if its dead now, it was dead 15 or 20 years ago. It's sort of a moot point.
Of course, I'm using the term "holiness" within the context of this thread, mostly in regard to outward appearance/standards only.
freeatlast
01-21-2009, 02:09 PM
Hmmmm. Since "holiness" was never all-encompassing, never consistent in application, and never even church-wide within Pentecostal ranks, I would say that if its dead now, it was dead 15 or 20 years ago. It's sort of a moot point.
Of course, I'm using the term "holiness" within the context of this thread, mostly in regard to outward appearance/standards only.
Oh..that version of holiness. No, it's not dead, but could someone just please put it out of it's misery. :thebunny
I have several of Dr. Ironside's books.
That was a good article.
When the Holy Spirit Baptism began to be poured out in the late 1800's and early 1900's many of the folks had come from a "holiness" background. They believed that they had been saved and subsequently "sanctified" or "baptized in the Spirit." So, when they received the "tongues" experience they went to a three works of grace stand. Some would testify to being saved, sanctified, and baptized in the Holy Ghost. Later through a teaching called "the finished work of Calvary" many abandoned the idea that sin or the old nature was eradicated in a second blessing and just preached salvation and a subsequent Holy Ghost Baptism (tongues). The Assemblies of God developed from those who denied the "second blessing." The Cleveland Church of God and the Church of God in Christ maintained the three steps or three experiences. Some Oneness churches also believe in a second blessing holiness experience in between repentance and the Holy Ghost Baptism.
Some years ago I was in a Church of God (Cleveland, TN) meeting where they reported on the statistics from a recent Youth Camp. They told how many had been saved, how many had been sanctified, and how many had been baptized in the Spirit.
Truthseeker
01-21-2009, 02:42 PM
I think the major problem is how standards are presented and the false security it can bring.
I would say MOST holiness pentecostals don't know they are even saved.
Aquila
01-21-2009, 02:43 PM
I think the Holiness movement is alive, it's just struggling to adjust to a new day. We're learning that holiness is an issue of the heart not the external. Dress codes and standards only bring Christian modesty at best and legalism at worse. Nothing about the outward standards makes one "holy". Those are my thoughts. God bless.
mfblume
01-21-2009, 03:31 PM
I'd have to know if holiness means to you what it means to most OP's STANDARDS ??
That is precisely a good point.
TRFrance
01-21-2009, 03:56 PM
Wikipidia....really?? thats a reliable source??
not sure I want to get my facts about a subject from public opinion.
Don't just throw it out the window because "it's Wikipedia".
Most of the contributors to Wikipedia are very knowledgeable about the topics they post on.
In the case above, their description of the Holiness Movement seems to be pretty accurate. But if you think it's not, feel free to give us your insight.
mfblume
01-21-2009, 03:58 PM
Wikipedia is a good source. Anything in error on it is quickly cast out of the text. They keep a good handle on it.
pelathais
01-21-2009, 04:04 PM
LOL. The editor at that site has this note:
"This article is an edited version of two articles by Keith Drury, "The Holiness Movement Is Dead," and "Hope for the Holiness Movement") -editor, Dennis Bratcher"
So, the Holiness Movement is Dead - yet there is Hope for the Holiness Movement? Both articles simultaneously from the same writer. Keith is a popular writer among Wesleyans. I read a booklet of his about suffering, "Walking With Death" (?) which I though was very good.
"Movements" come and go. Since holiness is an intrinsic element of God's nature, I think holiness itself will be around for a very long time to come.
pelathais
01-21-2009, 04:10 PM
Wikipidia....really?? thats a reliable source??
not sure I want to get my facts about a subject from public opinion.
Just to add my comment to the others about Wikipedia - in order to get your contributions to stand you have to build a consensus among other contributors and prove that your facts are correct. I have made contributions in articles on Military History and had to plead my case. Never lost a battle - but I did have to go back and dig up sources for corroboration to satisfy the many critics.
And every source of information could be labeled as "public opinion," even the Encyclopedia Britannica. And I'm sure that you have found plenty to criticize in the Britannica.
The Lemon
01-21-2009, 04:26 PM
"Movements" come and go. Since holiness is an intrinsic element of God's nature, I think holiness itself will be around for a very long time to come.[/QUOTE]
What does God intend us to understand by the term holiness? It simply means BELONGING TO, and in this case, belonging to God. And the way we live should reflect that. I believe in modesty, but I think it got way out of whack when standards that are not found in the bible, or are the result of misreading what the Bible does say, started to high-jack what holiness is supposed to mean.
Both of you said almost exactely what I was thinking when I read the thread! Instead of looking for a "movement" we should be seeking a move of God! Both of these were awesome responses!
Michael The Disciple
01-21-2009, 05:31 PM
Yes the Weslyan style Holiness Movement is dead. But the scriptural command to be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is alive and well. Its a challenge to every would be disciple.
We are at the point where most Christians dont believe you can consistently overcome Sin by the Holy Spirit power in them.
RandyWayne
01-21-2009, 08:45 PM
As long as someone thinks that they can earn their way into heaven (which is only natural since it is easier for someone to wrap their heads around it as opposed to the concept of Grace), "holiness" as defined by clothesline preaching, will NEVER die.
www.cresourcei.org/hmovement.html - 49k
Written by Keith Drury
"We need to admit to each other that the holiness movement is dead. We have never had a funeral. And we still have the body upstairs in bed. In fact, we still keep it dressed up and still even talk about the movement as if it were alive. But the holiness movement—as a movement—is dead. Yes, I recognize that there are many wonderful holiness people around. And people are still getting entirely sanctified here and there. But as a movement, I think we need to admit we are dead. The sooner we admit it, the better off we’ll be.
We have a holiness heritage. We have holiness denominations. We have holiness organizations. We have holiness doctrines. We even have holiness colleges, but we no longer have a holiness movement. I, for one, lament the death of the holiness movement. But pretending we are alive as a movement will not make it so. In fact, it may be the greatest barrier to the emergence of a new holiness movement."
No true Holiness is is alive. Christ in us our Hope of Glory.
The "Standards" movement is dead.
Why is it dead?
It brought about guilt as no one could abide by all the "rules".
For some reason we were taught if you take the conviction thing one step further than the person sitting the pew in front of you.
That meant you were getting closer to God.
When all the time organizations were being spilt.
Churches were being split.
Familys were being spilt.
What it did was give an entire group of people a false sense of relationship with Christ and other saints.
Simply the concpet of teaching the why, the application and then the legislation was never lined up with the love of God.
Regardless of all the kind hearted pastors and their wives.
They had to get folks back in line.
Because the other churches and pastors in the area would keep score.
I remember when some pastors required a lady to be in the church for a couple of years before they did anything.
God forbid you have someone visit and see shorter hair on a lady.
That church is allowing ladies to cut their hair sing in the choir.
Once your hair was then long enough to take away any attention.
Then you could sing in the choir.
The 6 months some of the young ladies had to sit was not a punishmet.
It was to give their hair time to grow back.
To take attention away from the appearace of lowered standards.
......................
Evang.Benincasa
01-21-2009, 10:16 PM
The "Standards" movement is dead.
You wish.
pelathais
01-21-2009, 10:19 PM
Yes the Weslyan style Holiness Movement is dead. But the scriptural command to be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is alive and well. Its a challenge to every would be disciple.
We are at the point where most Christians dont believe you can consistently overcome Sin by the Holy Spirit power in them.
I dunno, Mike. I think that problem has been with us for centuries - almost 20 of them.
You wish.
have you taken your Christmas tree down yet?
Evang.Benincasa
01-21-2009, 10:26 PM
have you taken your Christmas tree down yet?
You know better than that.
Hey how is your Mustang handling the snow?
You wish.
Where it is not dead.
The churches are dead.
I would love to see the standards church growth attendance over the past 20years.
You know better than that.
Hey how is your Mustang handling the snow?
Not taken it out in any bad weather...
Taking it easy....
Evang.Benincasa
01-21-2009, 10:28 PM
Where it is not dead.
The churches are dead.
I would love to see the standards church growth attendance over the past 20years.
North Little Rock Arkansas, Elder Joel Holmes.
They are one really LIVE church.
Evang.Benincasa
01-21-2009, 10:30 PM
I have never walked into a holiness Apostolic church and it was dead.
When they get that Hammod bumping, those saints take off running and shouting.
I have never walked into a holiness Apostolic church and it was dead.
When they get that Hammod bumping, those saints take off running and shouting.
They are shaking the guilt for having watched TV off them....
Evang.Benincasa
01-21-2009, 10:32 PM
I went by the Pensecola Brownsville Assembly of God, and I thought that place was spooky. Brother Billy Adams' church is a shouting group, and their prayer room is packed with lively praying people before service.
Evang.Benincasa
01-21-2009, 10:34 PM
They are shaking the guilt for having watched TV off them....
No television, they save that for the liberals who think watching the tube is balance. ;)
Sept5SavedTeen
01-26-2009, 07:51 PM
Now I'm not one to say that the number of people justify a movement, or else, I'd be a Catholic, however, as for the "Conservative Holiness Movement", if we're defining that as Wesleyan-Arminian and trinitarian, then yes, that movement is dead. I used to post on a message board called myholiness.com (it was truly their holiness they were focused on), and the sense I got of this group (which was fairly diverse geographically), it was dead. Allegheny Methodists, Pilgrim Holiness (Midwest and New York Conferences), Bible Methodists, Pilgrim Nazarenes, Nazarenes and independent holiness people made up a lot of the people on this board. I knew, and made the acquiantance, of an Allegheny Methodist girl who went to the church in Tioga, LA, right by the Pentecostals of Alexandria, and the Allegheny church had only about 20 members, and they were always confused with Pentecostals. The Pilgrim Holiness Church (New York Conference) in the town by my house has about a dozen members, and has been there for nearly 75 years now. The Free Methodist denomination, which I was apart of, has practically left the Conservative Holiness Movement. And Hobe Sound Bible College and God's Bible School, the two main holiness colleges are small and have not gone very far.
The holiness movement was popular when their styles and fashions were closer to the world and time they were living in. As the Pentecostals came on the scene, the Holiness movement sort of lost it's distinctiveness. The Conservative Holiness Movement's difference with most of Oneness Pentecost, these days, is that the CHM follows the dress standards a bit more strictly, makes sure it stressed the long-sleeve standard, and they don't speak in tongues.
There is also a holiness movement within the Conservative Holiness Movement, known as the Evening Light Movement started by Daniel Sydney Warner, around 1880, and from the onset of that movement there have been three branches that I have looked into, the Church of GOD (Anderson), COG (Guthrie) and COG (Restoration). They're a very interesting subset, where Anderson started getting liberal, so Guthrie was a reaction to that, and then a disgruntled member of Guthrie, around 1980, got disgruntled with the "compromise" he saw, and he started the "Restoration", and they are among the most conservative groups I have ever seen, and they mainly convert Anabaptists to their group. Even among this, their growth and conservsions are from other groups, not from the "world." Their brand of holiness is amoung the most legalistic I've seen.
There are still pockets of the Conservative Holiness Movement worth looking into, but it's sort of irrelevant and dead in the grand scheme of religious study, unless one were studying American religions, and even then, the "Conservative Holiness Movement" has a start and end date.
-Bro. Alex
Aquila
07-17-2009, 03:38 PM
I think the term "Holiness Movement" is misnomer. It's really not so much focused on "holiness" as it is dress codes. It should be called the Conservative Movement. Holiness isn't about looking weird or different. Holiness is about being Christlike in behavior. It's about treating people different. The way you dress doesn't impress sinners. The way you treat others (other Christians, the broken, the hurting, the poor, the sinful, your enemies, etc.), now that is what catches their eyes.
That's holiness.
Aquila
07-17-2009, 03:50 PM
Sometimes I like to take the Ten Commandments and consider their positive implications:
I
Thou shalt have one God.
II
Thou shalt know him personally.
III
Thou shalt reverence the name of the LORD.
IV
Remember the Rest.
V
Honor thy father and thy mother.
VI
Thou shalt live and let live.
VII
Thou shalt be faithful.
VIII
Thou shalt enjoy what is yours.
IX
Thou shalt be honest.
X
Thou shalt be thankful.
Now that's holiness.
deadeye
07-17-2009, 04:38 PM
I think the holiness movement as described is dead. However, there will always be folks trying to add to the word of God.
We see a lot of the same confusion of the holiness movement in the charismatic and pentecostal movements. Folks are always trying to find a newer and easier way to live for God. We will constantly see these fads and trends happen as long as people don't have a strong understanding and hunger for the word of God.
There is a book by Dr. Harry Ironside, Holiness: The False and the True that describes his conversion from the holiness movement and the confusion that he suffered because of the teachings of the movement.
Here is a link to some of his writings.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Harry_Ironside/holiness.htm
He also refered to the
Tongues Movement" as disgusting.......I would hardly place my trust in the writings of a man that considers the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and the evidence as disgusting.
Bullwinkle
07-17-2009, 04:43 PM
www.cresourcei.org/hmovement.html - 49k
Written by Keith Drury
"We need to admit to each other that the holiness movement is dead. We have never had a funeral. And we still have the body upstairs in bed. In fact, we still keep it dressed up and still even talk about the movement as if it were alive. But the holiness movement—as a movement—is dead. Yes, I recognize that there are many wonderful holiness people around. And people are still getting entirely sanctified here and there. But as a movement, I think we need to admit we are dead. The sooner we admit it, the better off we’ll be.
We have a holiness heritage. We have holiness denominations. We have holiness organizations. We have holiness doctrines. We even have holiness colleges, but we no longer have a holiness movement. I, for one, lament the death of the holiness movement. But pretending we are alive as a movement will not make it so. In fact, it may be the greatest barrier to the emergence of a new holiness movement."
Keith Drury is a professor at a Wesleyan University. The movement he is talking about, other than by antecedent has nothing to do with oneness pentecostalism.
freeatlast
07-17-2009, 05:06 PM
I have never walked into a holiness Apostolic church and it was dead.
When they get that Hammod bumping, those saints take off running and shouting.
This is sad.
This is sad.
Uh, I guess I need enlightenment now. Why is this sad?
Granny dying, that is sad.
Pet dying, that is sad,
Holiness people worshipping God, SAD?
Explain please?
RandyWayne
07-17-2009, 05:53 PM
The holiness movement will never die. Not when there are still flat-Earthers, hollow-Earthers, and those who believe that the moon walk was a hoax or that Elvis is still alive, STILL around and forming tight nit groups.
The holiness movement will never die. Not when there are still flat-Earthers, hollow-Earthers, and those who believe that the moon walk was a hoax or that Elvis is still alive, STILL around and forming tight nit groups.
Randy, Randy, Randy.....
The Bible says : Many are called, FEW are chosen!
Just because we are the chosen and you are on the outside looking in does not mean you have to get bitter and mean spirited, just repent, come back into the fold,........
:gotcha
hometown guy
07-17-2009, 07:35 PM
:ursofunny[QUOTE=TJJJ;774171]Randy, Randy, Randy.....
The Bible says : Many are called, FEW are chosen!
Just because we are the chosen and you are on the outside looking in does not mean you have to get bitter and mean spirited, just repent, come back into the fold,........
:hanky
RandyWayne
07-17-2009, 09:30 PM
Randy, Randy, Randy.....
The Bible says : Many are called, FEW are chosen!
Just because we are the chosen and you are on the outside looking in does not mean you have to get bitter and mean spirited, just repent, come back into the fold,........
:gotcha
But.... but... I'm already wearing pants! And have SHORT hair! (And wear no jewelry other than my wedding ring... OK, maybe that is something that can go!)
So HOW do I get back into "the fold"?
But.... but... I'm already wearing pants! And have SHORT hair! (And wear no jewelry other than my wedding ring... OK, maybe that is something that can go!)
So HOW do I get back into "the fold"?
Randy
We all saw the vacation pictures, need we say more? What was that Island you went to where clothing was an option?:ursofunny
RandyWayne
07-17-2009, 09:46 PM
Randy
We all saw the vacation pictures, need we say more? What was that Island you went to where clothing was an option?:ursofunny
It was just a tiny island off the main one -and we did NOT go there. We saw how hideous the people looked through out 10x zoom camera's and wouldn't set foot on it.
Evang.Benincasa
07-17-2009, 10:33 PM
It was just a tiny island off the main one -and we did NOT go there. We saw how hideous the people looked through out 10x zoom camera's and wouldn't set foot on it.
Tiny Island? Was the Skipper and Gilligan there?
If those people were stranded on the Island that long why didn't their clothes or shoes wear out? :rolleyes2
RandyWayne
07-17-2009, 10:46 PM
Tiny Island? Was the Skipper and Gilligan there?
If those people were stranded on the Island that long why didn't their clothes or shoes wear out? :rolleyes2
Gilligan's shirt was just as red the day they were rescued as the day they were stranded -I assume so anyways since the first season was in black and white.
Evang.Benincasa
07-17-2009, 10:59 PM
Gilligan's shirt was just as red the day they were rescued as the day they were stranded -I assume so anyways since the first season was in black and white.
Yes, they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.
Now the real question is how did the Klingons go from looking like dark vulcans to those ugly looking brutes?
RandyWayne
07-17-2009, 11:49 PM
Yes, they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.
Now the real question is how did the Klingons go from looking like dark vulcans to those ugly looking brutes?
To quote Worf, "Those ARE Klingons. We do not discuss it."
Narrow Is The Way
07-17-2009, 11:51 PM
It was just a tiny island off the main one -and we did NOT go there. We saw how hideous the people looked through out 10x zoom camera's and wouldn't set foot on it.
Wow, you draw lines in your life. Way to go.
RandyWayne
07-17-2009, 11:58 PM
It is an ever shifting line. But the line does not shift randomly, but only with purpose based on the situation.
Such is the life of the most interesting man in the world.
Evang.Benincasa
07-18-2009, 12:01 AM
To quote Worf, "Those ARE Klingons. We do not discuss it."
Really? Interesting, you mean they never explain the change?
RandyWayne
07-18-2009, 01:30 AM
Really? Interesting, you mean they never explain the change?
No, it was an inside joke. The quote is from the Trouble With Tribbles episode they did with the Deep Space 9 crew where Worf was surrounded by the Klingons from that original series.
Evang.Benincasa
07-18-2009, 05:45 AM
No, it was an inside joke. The quote is from the Trouble With Tribbles episode they did with the Deep Space 9 crew where Worf was surrounded by the Klingons from that original series.
I can understand the inside joke for Trekkies, but still no explanation for the evolutional change? Anyway... HOLINESS MOVEMENT ROCKS!:thumbsup
freeatlast
07-18-2009, 07:24 AM
I went by the Pensecola Brownsville Assembly of God, and I thought that place was spooky. Brother Billy Adams' church is a shouting group, and their prayer room is packed with lively praying people before service.
WoW Eb. I went to this church for a year back when Biily's dad pastored.
Havent seen Billy for years. We were very good friends when I attended there.
You described them rightly, as I remeber we would run, drop and roll, shout and spend time in "holy luaghter" on command.
They needed a traffic director, because when one would run ALL would join in.
There was a head on one night in front of the pulpit that required stiches ;-)
Would love to visit with Billy and his family againb if I ever get to the panhandle.
It was just a tiny island off the main one -and we did NOT go there. We saw how hideous the people looked through out 10x zoom camera's and wouldn't set foot on it.
Just stirring the pot,
Lord bless
TJJJ
WoW Eb. I went to this church for a year back when Biily's dad pastored.
Havent seen Billy for years. We were very good friends when I attended there.
You described them rightly, as I remeber we would run, drop and roll, shout and spend time in "holy luaghter" on command.
They needed a traffic director, because when one would run ALL would join in.
There was a head on one night in front of the pulpit that required stiches ;-)
Would love to visit with Billy and his family againb if I ever get to the panhandle.
Been in services like that, they are great aren't they!
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