Article by Sabin on women teaching

[Praxeas]

ABC Women's Institute, September 19, 1997

God commands all Christian women to be silent and not to teach men - or does he?

1Tim. 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Why this couldn't be a command for all Christian people through all time!

Questions to ask when confronted by difficult texts:

1. To whom was this epistle written?

2. What was the purpose of this epistle?

3. How does what Paul says in the verse relative to a woman teaching comport with what is said elsewhere in the New Testament?

4. What is said about women teaching, preaching or prophesying in other places in scripture?

1. Adam and Eve, in the beginning, were given equal responsibility. Genesis Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

2. Jesus used the ideal conditions that existed in the beginning to give a new testament command. Matt. 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Matt. 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Matt. 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

3. There is no time in scripture when women were forbidden to teach, preach or prophecy. God used women in all ages including but not limited to New Testament times. Old Testament Women who prophesied - Miriam - Numbers 26:59, 1Chron 5:29 ; Sarah - Genesis 21:10 cf Galatians 4:30 ; Deborah - Judges 4:4-6, Judges 5:1,7, 12, 13, 31 ; Huldah - 2Kings 22:14-20 ; Noadiah Neh 6:14 Etc. In addition to this the Old Testament forsees the Christian time when daughters would prophecy - Joel 2:28,29. And this in spite of the fact that the world was fallen and that the prediction of Genesis 3:16 had come to pass. Still, God used women. Why, then, should Christian women put interdicted?

1 Tim 2:1-15

Women forbidden to teach men? Women to keep silence?

1Tim. 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (why would Paul want to limit God's messengers to men only when he wants all the world to be saved?) 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (Paul is opposing the most radical feminism the world has ever seen. In Ephesus, many women believed that only a woman, because of her position as child-bearer<= could communicate ultimate truth. A woman was the sole interpreter. Many also believed that the woman was the originator of man, that she was the authentic one [authentein]) 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting (wrathful passion and dialogismos, dispute) .

9 In like manner also, that women (pray with uplifted hands) adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety (modesty and good sense); not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; (women retained one slave to arrange their hair while a second stood by with a whip to lash the unfortunate beautician - Juvenal, p. 75 of Kroeger - Apuleius considered braids seductive. Ostentation in dress was considered a sign of promiscuity in the ancient world)

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness (professing means witnessing) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn (Rabbi's forbid women to learn) in silence (The Rabbinic scholar was required to learn in silence - based upon Zech 2:13, Hab 2:20, Isa. 41:1,, were required to “be still” Ps 46:10. Rabbi Isaac said, “What should be a man's pursuit in this world? He should be silent. Silence was the duty of the learner. Silence and submission is a Near Eastern formula implying willingness to heed and obey instruction. The original appliication is one of attentiveness and receptivity to God. The command that women should learn is marked contrast to the foolish women, 1 tim 3:6,7, who are ever learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Paul would arm women with truth so that they might stand against error. Why would any true proclaimer of the gospel ever restrict who may learn or who might teach. Paul's concerns are for peace, propriety and a knowledge of the truth.) with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (Paul attacks a highly unorthodox myth involving Adam, Eve, and the serpent) 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in (Paul defends feminine functions. dia, - during, throughout, within an attendant circumstance, while still possessing that function that most sets her apart from man) childbearing, if they (they, women and all Christians) continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Did Paul believe that no woman should teach? May this scripture be used to teach a doctrine which is contradicted elsewhere?

Women prophesied. It was predicted that they would. Joel 2:28; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, They did! Acts 2:17 your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,...

Paul allowed prophecy from women 1Cor 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Prophecy is speaking to “edification [teaching or building up], exhortation and comfort.” 1Cor. 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Old Testament women prophesied, Deborah, Esther, Jael, Sarah (Genesis 21:The New Testament would not reduce the abilities of women to participate. The New Testament in which women as well as men were filled with the Spirit would not reduce women's opportunitites to participate.

Women taught under Paul's ministry, Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 1Cor. 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Even the Old Testament allowed women to learn, Deut. 31:12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

Both Paul and Jesus allowed women to learn, Luke 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Conclusion: If Paul does not want some women to teach, it is not because they are women, but rather because they are unlearned, incompetent, or are teaching error. If the church should bar all incompetent teachers, it would have to bar men who teach that women should not teach.

[Praxeas]

Evidence of Conflict and false doctrine in Ephesus according to the Pastorals

The problem was not that women were teaching. The problem was in regard to what they were teaching!

Ephesus was the seat of the greatest false teachings in the history of the earth!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

1Tim. 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

1Tim. 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Tim. 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1Tim. 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

2Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy; 5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. 6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. 15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

2Tim. 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Tim. 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

2Tim. 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

2Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

[ILG]

Conclusion: If Paul does not want some women to teach, it is not because they are women, but rather because they are unlearned, incompetent, or are teaching error. If the church should bar all incompetent teachers, it would have to bar men who teach that women should not teach.

There ya go, Bro. Epley. :D

[Steve Epley]

Another issue Sabin is wrong about so what?:tiphat

[Michael The Disciple]

Absoutely wrong. Jesus chose only men to be apostles. When Paul laid out qualifications to Eldership he said if any MAN desire the office of a Bishop.

6: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. Titus 1:6

Women are not called to the Eldership. Plain and simple. They may pray and prophesy as Paul said. But they cannot be the leaders in the Church.

[Michael The Disciple]

Evidence of Conflict and false doctrine in Ephesus according to the Pastorals

The problem was not that women were teaching. The problem was in regard to what they were teaching!

Ephesus was the seat of the greatest false teachings in the history of the earth!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

1Tim. 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

1Tim. 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Tim. 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1Tim. 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

2Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy; 5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. 6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. 15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

2Tim. 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Tim. 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

2Tim. 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

2Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

None of this has to do with the issue of Woman teachers. And actually Jesus commended Ephesus that they exercised discernment against false teaching.

1: Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2: I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: Rev. 2:1-2

[berkeley]

Absoutely wrong. Jesus chose only men to be apostles. When Paul laid out qualifications to Eldership he said if any MAN desire the office of a Bishop.

6: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. Titus 1:6

Women are not called to the Eldership. Plain and simple. They may pray and prophesy as Paul said. But they cannot be the leaders in the Church.
So you are for women preachers?? :friend

[Michael The Disciple]

So you are for women preachers?? :friend

Im ok with Women preaching as defined by the proclaiming of Christ. But I agree with scripture that Women may not have the Eldership. They are not to be set over the man in leadership position.

Prophesying in the Bible was not just preaching. It was speaking "thus saith the Lord". The Woman may do this but must be covered with a veil or she would dishonor her head which is the man.

[Praxeas]

Im ok with Women preaching as defined by the proclaiming of Christ. But I agree with scripture that Women may not have the Eldership. They are not to be set over the man in leadership position.

Prophesying in the Bible was not just preaching. It was speaking "thus saith the Lord". The Woman may do this but must be covered with a veil or she would dishonor her head which is the man.
Can you elaborate more on the difference between prophesying and preaching....aren't both messages from the Lord?

[Sister Alvear]

and Jesus only chose Jews as His disciples... so I guess a person would have to be a jew...who knows...lol...

Serpert seed doctrine really promotes an anti woman spirit...I have dealt with it for 40 years in Brazil.

Why would anyone want to close the mouth of anyone when 6 billion people are going to hell...so sad...

[berkeley]

Can you elaborate more on the difference between prophesying and preaching....aren't both messages from the Lord?It's okay for a woman to say "thus saith the Lord...." and give a direct word from God. It is not okay for a woman to study and teach on a passage of scripture!:ignore

[LadyRev]

It's okay for a woman to say "thus saith the Lord...." and give a direct word from God. It is not okay for a woman to study and teach on a passage of scripture!:ignore

But of course!

You know good and well that when a MAN studies and teaches on a passage of scripture that its a "Word from God". But if a woman takes that man's notes and teaches from them, you know all too well that suddenly those same words become merely the words of a woman...:winkgrin

[Joelel]

Absoutely wrong. Jesus chose only men to be apostles. When Paul laid out qualifications to Eldership he said if any MAN desire the office of a Bishop.

6: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. Titus 1:6

Women are not called to the Eldership. Plain and simple. They may pray and prophesy as Paul said. But they cannot be the leaders in the Church.

A big AMEN

[Joelel]

Im ok with Women preaching as defined by the proclaiming of Christ. But I agree with scripture that Women may not have the Eldership. They are not to be set over the man in leadership position.

Prophesying in the Bible was not just preaching. It was speaking "thus saith the Lord". The Woman may do this but must be covered with a veil or she would dishonor her head which is the man.

A big AMEN

[Praxeas]

and Jesus only chose Jews as His disciples... so I guess a person would have to be a jew...who knows...lol...

Serpert seed doctrine really promotes an anti woman spirit...I have dealt with it for 40 years in Brazil.

Why would anyone want to close the mouth of anyone when 6 billion people are going to hell...so sad...
Good point...Hey! I wonder if Newman can find in the OT where there is a doctrine teaching Women Apostles? :winkgrin

[Steve Epley]

The qualifications for bishops-elders-deacons are gender restrictive that is very clear. About the Apostles Titus was not a Jew although not one of the twelve certainly an Apostle to Crete if no where else. The qualifications are NOT ethnic restrictive.

[Michael The Disciple]

and Jesus only chose Jews as His disciples... so I guess a person would have to be a jew...who knows...lol...

Serpert seed doctrine really promotes an anti woman spirit...I have dealt with it for 40 years in Brazil.

Why would anyone want to close the mouth of anyone when 6 billion people are going to hell...so sad...

No one is promoting serpent seed doctrine. How did that get in here? But whats the difference in accepting one false doctrine or another? I have dealt with the Woman leader spirit for many years myself.

No woman is being told to close her mouth. Preach all you want as long as you are subject to your husband and have a meek and quiet spirit which is precious in the sight of the Lord.

Women should simply leave the Eldership alone. Thats all.

[Sister Alvear]

We may disagree what false doctrine is. I have never felt Hulda wrong for telling a man or men, Thus saith the Lord...
She brought such a revival for obeying the Lord. I pray that each one of us obey the Lord in the field He has called us to work in...
I personally will give account for the last 40 years I have gleaned in Brazil's harvest fields.

[mfblume]

Any thoughts on why Deborah was Judge?

[Trouvere]

Any thoughts on why Deborah was Judge?

Surely she wasn't quaified.Not a woman.

[mfblume]

Surely she wasn't quaified.Not a woman.



Heh heh.

Some people pigeonhole thoughts into their traditions, and then scripture comes along and blows it apart.

[Joelel]

Any thoughts on why Deborah was Judge?

At that time God had no one man to lead his people and there were several judges at the time.Go all back though the old testement all the leaders that God had one at a time were men.How come any of the apostles were not women ? Apostles are head athority in the church.Women can't hold any head athorty because man is head (athority) of women.Women can't be a bishop because a bishop must be able to teach and a women can't teach men.A bishop must know how to rule his house so he knows how to rule the church.A woman can't rule the house or a church.

[mfblume]

At that time God had no one man to lead his people and there were several judges at the time.Go all back though the old testement all the leaders that God had one at a time were men.How come any of the apostles were not women ? Apostles are head athority in the church.Women can't hold any head athorty because man is head (athority) of women.Women can't be a bishop because a bishop must be able to teach and a women can't teach men.A bishop must know how to rule his house so he knows how to rule the church.A woman can't rule the house or a church.

I like all these additions to the Word. Does the bible say "THERE WAS NO MAN"?

All we read is this:

Jdg 4:3-5 KJV And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel. (4) And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. (5) And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

[Praxeas]

Any thoughts on why Deborah was Judge?
She was a lawyer before she got hired for the Peoples Court with Judge Deborah? :slaphappy

[Steve Epley]

[QUOTE=Praxeas;69352]She was a lawyer before she got hired for the Peoples Court with Judge Deborah? :slaphappy[/QUOT

[Steve Epley]

Deborah did what she had to do and so did Jael maybe she had the hammer ministry????????????????
There is a note on this subject in Heb.11 when Paul is referring to the incident he mentions Barak and omits Deborah why do you reckon?????

Deborah was not a Levite I promise you that Isreal was a nation not just a religious service.

[Eliseus]

Considering the prevaling social (both Jewish, Greek, and Roman) regarding the social roles of women, why is there no CLEAR CUT AFFIRMATION of these doctrines of women being in leadership in the church to be found in the New Testament?

Where is the apostolic DENUNCIATIONS of "worldly, pagan suppression of women's rights and abilities"?

Also, were the earliest Christians ever censured or derided by their peers for having "women leaders"?

Just wondering...

[Sister Alvear]

I disagree on most of the posts I have read...however Deborah not only judged Israel as a judge she also gave spiritual guidance to Israel for 40 years...soooooooooooooooooooo if you need spiritual guidance would anyone have went to Deborah?

[mfblume]

Deborah did what she had to do and so did Jael maybe she had the hammer ministry????????????????
There is a note on this subject in Heb.11 when Paul is referring to the incident he mentions Barak and omits Deborah why do you reckon?????

Deborah was not a Levite I promise you that Isreal was a nation not just a religious service.

Nobody said she was a Levite. What do you mean?


The fact remains that a woman held a position of authority in God's government, called of God to do so. Judges were not just secular in those days, since she was also a prophetess.

[Eliseus]

Where are the New Testament scriptures which teach "women may teach the church, may lead the church, may serve as elders/bishops/overseers of the church"?

Somebody list all the NT verses which SPECIFICALLY DEAL WITH THE SUBJECT AT HAND...

[Steve Epley]

Nobody said she was a Levite. What do you mean?


The fact remains that a woman held a position of authority in God's government, called of God to do so. Judges were not just secular in those days, since she was also a prophetess.

The government was both civil and religious and SHE had to have the Levites like every other Isrealite.

[mfblume]

The government was both civil and religious and SHE had to have the Levites like every other Isrealite.

You are still not being clear. Do you mean that spiritual advice was not her forte, but civil issues only, since the Levites handled spiritual issues? In any case, a woman was in a position of authority over men. So are you saying that women can have civil authority but not spiritual authority? Interesting thought.

[Steve Epley]

You are still not being clear. Do you mean that spiritual advice was not her forte, but civil issues only, since the Levites handled spiritual issues? In any case, a woman was in a position of authority over men. So are you saying that women can have civil authority but not spiritual authority? Interesting thought.

I do think it is different yes. You know Deborah had the same feeling concerning her place in history she wasn't exited about it. However you did not address why Barak is mentioned in Heb. 11 and Deborah is omitted.

[Eliseus]

Nobody said she was a Levite. What do you mean?


The fact remains that a woman held a position of authority in God's government, called of God to do so. Judges were not just secular in those days, since she was also a prophetess.

The reasoning here seems to be - "If a woman led Israel in the OT, then a woman can lead the church today."

The problem however is that this is fallacious. Observe, the reasoning is "If X was acceptable in the OT era, then X is acceptable in the NT era."

Very well...

"Animal sacrifices were acceptable in the OT era, therefore they are acceptable in the NT era." Obviously not kosher.

Let's try again...

"Inherited priesthood was acceptable in the OT era, therefore inherited priesthood is acceptable in the NT era." BRRRRRAAAPPPP!!! Wrong...

Obviously, simply because something occurred in the OT era does NOT BY ANY MEANS indicate that a repetition of said event is DESIRABLE or ACCEPTABLE in the NT era.

Furthermore, it should be noted that the circumstances under which Deborah served are vastly different than they are now. It should also be noted that Deborah did not LEAD Israel, for it was BARAK who was charged with that responsibility.

In fact, let us look a wee bit closer at that, shall we?

Barak refused to go forth and LEAD ISRAEL unless Deborah went with him. Barak refused to lead unless this woman went with him. Think about that. What was Deborah's response? "Fine, but because of this, God will deliver Sisera into the hand of a woman..."

Hmmm... sounds remarkably OTHERWISE than would be expected from a feminist holy book...

Because Barak was too wimpy to do his duty HIMSELF, God decided to take the glory of victory from him and give it to a woman, Jael.

What does this show? Does it show that God desires women to lead the church?

No, if anything it shows that when men will not bravely fulfill their duties, God will show his displeasure with their weakness by raising up WOMEN to do it instead.

This by the way does not mean that Jael was a feminazi, nor does it mean that every woman preaching is a feminist antichrist. No, it means that the men of the church are woefully inadequate to the tasks set before them, and have shrunk back and are direlict in their duties.

[mfblume]

The reasoning here seems to be - "If a woman led Israel in the OT, then a woman can lead the church today."

Incorrect. The reasoning is simply why a woman in the bible was called of God to lead people in a nation when people are generally thinking women have no place in any authority. As I asked last, are we to assume women can lead secularly and not spiritually?

[mfblume]

Furthermore, it should be noted that the circumstances under which Deborah served are vastly different than they are now. It should also be noted that Deborah did not LEAD Israel, for it was BARAK who was charged with that responsibility.

You are only deriving that conclusion because we do not read Barak SHOULD HAVE.


In fact, let us look a wee bit closer at that, shall we?

Barak refused to go forth and LEAD ISRAEL unless Deborah went with him.

So? How can you say that means she would otherwise have not been judge?

Barak refused to lead unless this woman went with him. Think about that. What was Deborah's response? "Fine, but because of this, God will deliver Sisera into the hand of a woman..."

None of this is conclusive evidence to suggest that women should not normally lead. You are making too great a leap here.


No, if anything it shows that when men will not bravely fulfill their duties, God will show his displeasure with their weakness by raising up WOMEN to do it instead.

That is not conclusive. But if it is true, nevertheless, then could that occur in a church?

[Sister Alvear]

the new testament does not say man...it says overseer...man/ women...Interlinear greek english new testament...I Tim 3...

[mfblume]

I do think it is different yes. You know Deborah had the same feeling concerning her place in history she wasn't exited about it. However you did not address why Barak is mentioned in Heb. 11 and Deborah is omitted.

YOU may have provided the answer. But I do not agree she led Israel since Barak was too wimpy to do so.

[Steve Epley]

YOU may have provided the answer. But I do not agree she led Israel since Barak was too wimpy to do so.

Give me Paul's take on wimpy Barak????????????????

[Sister Alvear]

God cursed both men and women that came NOT to the AID of DEBORAH...not Barak

[mfblume]

Give me Paul's take on wimpy Barak????????????????

Righ on! Good one!

[Sister Alvear]

Some men would not have listened to Hulah...but wise men did and obeyed...

It is not the fact can a woman..the fact is that God did use women...

[Steve Epley]

God cursed both men and women that came NOT to the AID of DEBORAH...not Barak

I am NOT demeaning Deborah she was certainly used of the Lord however there must be something to consider when Paul mentions Barak and omits Deborah from the Heros of faith and there are women mentioned in the chapter?

[Sister Alvear]

Come on Brother Epley I'm bringing my grand daughter for you to ordain...

[Steve Epley]

Come on Brother Epley I'm bringing my grand daughter for you to ordain...

Now there may be an exception.:tiphat

[Sister Alvear]

the elders obtained a good report...Sarah included...

[Eliseus]

Well once again it seems people are responding without reading everything they are responding to. :)

MFBlume - I specifically addressed the issue of God raising up female leadership in the church as a sign of God's displeasure with the failure of godly men to fulfill their roles.

Sister Alvear - the entire nation of Israel was under attack. Men and women certainly have gone to the aid of the Israelite Defense Forces, however this says nothing of their respective roles in such an event. Notice what Jael was doing when Sisera came upon her tent... she was not out engaging in war, a la Joan of Arc...

In any event, the reasoning which suggests that "because Deborah was giving prophetic leadership to Israel in the old days therefore women may assume eldership responsibilities in the church today" is flawed, as I demonstrated. That reasoning can only be true IF it is true that "whatever was allowed in the OT is allowed in the NT." And, I proved such reasoning is invalid, and the conclusion false and unsound.

Again, where is the NT scripture which identifies women as holding eldership in the church?

And what shall we make of Isaiah 3:12?

[mfblume]

I am NOT demeaning Deborah she was certainly used of the Lord however there must be something to consider when Paul mentions Barak and omits Deborah from the Heros of faith and there are women mentioned in the chapter?

We cannot go that route, brother. There could be a million variable reasons people could come up with.

[Sister Alvear]

I'll see if I can get her a straight skirt, suit coat to match...

[Sister Alvear]

PLEASE note...I am just teasing Brother Epley...

[mfblume]

Well once again it seems people are responding without reading everything they are responding to. :)

MFBlume - I specifically addressed the issue of God raising up female leadership in the church as a sign of God's displeasure with the failure of godly men to fulfill their roles.

The point is you have no scriptural validation for all these conclusions. It's all circumstantial. We need explicit chapter and verse. Bishops cannot be women, since they are gender oriented. That sort of thing is the CLOSEST we have.

[Eliseus]

Also, what exactly WAS Deborah's role in Israel? What was a prophetess, a judge, supposed to do?

AND.... where is the connection between that and the church today?

Somebody identify the actual REASON that "Deborah's judgeship proves women may lead the church today"...

(Side note: Nobody here that I know of is demeaning women, their ability, or their value, nor is anyone here saying that a woman cannot witness to a lost man, her lost husband, cannot testify, etc etc etc... Those are rabbit trails that are irrelevent to the discussion, which regards women having an oversight of the church, in a teaching/guiding capacity...)

[LadyRev]

And the wheels on the bus go round and round.

And souls perish while you sit on your duff in front of a computer and fight to feed your male ego.

If you are so called, why don't you go out and PREACH to all nations and really DO SOMETHING for Christ?

Instead you hide behind a computer and hammer women preachers and other "women" issues while you have plenty of "male" issues of your very own.

Do you discuss "male" issues? Rarely. Do you start "male" threads? Hardly ever...unless its regarding sports or headship that is.

Disclaimer to my brethren: If this shoe does not fit, it was not intended for you to put it on. And that includes some of you that don't believe in women preachers as I'm not saying that simple disagreement constitutes "feeding an ego".

[Sister Alvear]

seriously I did tell you what Timothy said in the original...

And please take note I do not think a woman has to be manly to say, thus saith the Lord...

[mfblume]

Also, what exactly WAS Deborah's role in Israel? What was a prophetess, a judge, supposed to do?

AND.... where is the connection between that and the church today?

Somebody identify the actual REASON that "Deborah's judgeship proves women may lead the church today"...

By the same token we need more than no mention of women listed as heroes of faith in Hebrews 11.

Women cannot usurp authority over a man. That is plain and simple.

One might argue, though, what if a woman is GIVEN authority over a man? Is it still usurped?

We really have to consider all angles and have an answer beyond an argument from silence.

[Eliseus]

The point is you have no scriptural validation for all these conclusions. It's all circumstantial. We need explicit chapter and verse. Bishops cannot be women, since they are gender oriented. That sort of thing is the CLOSEST we have.

I have explicit validation for the conclusion women cannot be elders, and that women are not to teach, nor to have authority over men, but are to be silent in the church, obedient to their husbands, elder women are to teach younger women (and women are to teach their children).

There is ZERO scriptural support for the idea that women may teach or have authority over men, or have oversight of the church.

As for the presence of women leaders in the church (or in Israel in OT days), is there nothing to go on, by which we may develop an informed opinion?

Isaiah 3:12, anyone?

[Sister Alvear]

Deborah's role in connection with the church today????????? what does any old testament character have to do with the church today????????

Did not Jesus tear down the middle wall that divided things? No difference between Jew and Gentile...

[Sister Alvear]

What did Jesus tear down at calvary making no difference between bond and free....male or female????

[Steve Epley]

What did Jesus tear down at calvary making no difference between bond and free....male or female????

So two women filled with the Holy Ghost can marry???
Men are to greet women with a holy kiss?

[Eliseus]

By the same token we need more than no mention of women listed as heroes of faith in Hebrews 11.

Women cannot usurp authority over a man. That is plain and simple.

One might argue, though, what if a woman is GIVEN authority over a man? Is it still usurped?

We really have to consider all angles and have an answer beyond an argument from silence.

Actually, those who argue in favour of women having oversight of the church are arguing from silence.

But to answer the question about a woman being "given authority" as opposed to "usurping authority", here is what the Scripture actually says...

gunaiki de didaskein ouk epitrepo oude authentein andros all' einai en esouchia

The word translated "usurp authority" actually means "1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself

2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic

3) an absolute master

4) to govern, exercise dominion over one"

The context indicates that Paul is speaking of a woman who "governs, exercises dominion over" the man. The woman is not to do this, by apostolic edict.

The context sheds more light:

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.


1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

The woman is to "learn in silence with all subjection." The woman is NOT to "teach, nor to usurp authority [ie govern, exercise dominion] over the man." The woman IS to "be in silence." The reason given is the order of creation, and in verse 14 is tied explicitly to the fall, which hearkens back to God's pronouncement on that day that the man would "rule over" the woman (have authority, dominion).

So then this passage rules out the idea that a man may (with divine approval) "give" a woman authority that she is forbidden by God to have. Men cannot morally undo what God has done, nor may men authorise that which God has either not authorised or explicitly forbidden.

[Sister Alvear]

No, my friend two woman cannot marry...God made Adam and Eve...One man and one woman and gave them dominion...together...they ruled and were happy until sin entered...

In some counties such as Chile where my husband is from the men and women greet with a HOLY kiss...

[Sister Alvear]

over THE man not a man...quite a difference since Paul was talking about husband and wife.

[Steve Epley]

No, my friend two woman cannot marry...God made Adam and Eve...One man and one woman and gave them dominion...together...they ruled and were happy until sin entered...

In some counties such as Chile where my husband is from the men and women greet with a HOLY kiss...

Then in a sense in the church the genders still remain?

[Eliseus]

Well folks, it's been fun.

I noticed the hot topics today involved another hair/headship thread, and this one about women's roles in the church.

Meanwhile, the North American Union rolls forward, 1984 is behind schedule but catching up, the British military is predicting "microchip brain implants" in 20 years, I just heard a radio program about genetically modified crop mutations possibly killing off all the honeybees, there is the Nafta Superhighway going through, Congress now has a bigger gun ban law on the table than has ever been on the table before, Howard Hunt appears to have confessed prior to his death that he was involved in the JFK assassination...

...And my well pump went out and I have to find a replacement for less than 1500 bucks (installed) ASAP...

So, see ya folks later! God bless!

[Sister Alvear]

Talmudish thinks I...........ha.......
We know that a woman is still of the gender of the female and the male is of the male gender and that is for procreation only.
That difference could not have been a sexual difference...it was spiritual difference..
What was he talking about when he said male and female?????????

[Sister Alvear]

What kind of wall did He tear down...it sure was not a physcial wall for women and men remain as 2 seperate genders. It had to be a spiritual wall of some kind.

[Steve Epley]

What kind of wall did He tear down...it sure was not a physcial wall for women and men remain as 2 seperate genders. It had to be a spiritual wall of some kind.

Both men and women become part of the covenant WITHOUT either. The woman in the NT is baptized inot Christ and has ALL the benfits and blessings that men have however they are still women. Only saved WOMEN can bear children thoug I am saved I can't bear children so the gender is there.

[mfblume]

So then this passage rules out the idea that a man may (with divine approval) "give" a woman authority that she is forbidden by God to have. Men cannot morally undo what God has done, nor may men authorise that which God has either not authorised or explicitly forbidden.


Good point.

Personally I have not seen a woman who ministered in any capacity that would make me want to sit beneath her pastoral ministry, and that is not being chauvinistic or proud. I think women can minister or evangelize, but positions of authority are a different thing.

[Sister Alvear]

the new testament does not say man...it says overseer...man/ women...Interlinear greek english new testament...I Tim 3.

[mfblume]

the new testament does not say man...it says overseer...man/ women...Interlinear greek english new testament...I Tim 3.

But it still says that marriage for such a person can be to one wife alone, discounting women in the entire idea.

[Sister Alvear]

Elder, it says...wife/ husband of one... look in the interlinear..greek english new testament..

It says to be of one wife/husband...so the rule applies to either...
Would we say the greek is wrong?

[Trouvere]

She's right Brother Blume someone could translate that to fit whatever theology they desire on the subject.It could be translated different.

[mfblume]

Elder, it says...wife/ husband of one... look in the interlinear..greek english new testament..

It says to be of one wife/husband...so the rule applies to either...
Would we say the greek is wrong?

The greek for WIFE is as follows:

G1135
γυνή
gunē
goo-nay'
Probably from the base of G1096 ; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.

Husband is:

G435
ἀνήρ
anēr
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.

ANER is always a man, and cannot be a woman.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop1985 then3767 must1163 be1511 blameless,423 the husband435 of one3391 wife,1135 vigilant,3524 sober,4998 of good behavior,2887 given to hospitality,5382 apt to teach;1317


I cannot see where it allows for alternating between the ordering of "anēr of one gunē" and "gunē of one anēr".

It did not say the bishop can be a "gune". What am I missing? I am open.

[Sister Alvear]

I am not promoting manly women but am saying women was used and can be used of God. NO GODLY woman would ever want to be manly in manner, dress or action...

[Sister Alvear]

The greek for WIFE is as follows:

G1135
γυνή
gunē
goo-nay'
Probably from the base of G1096 ; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.

Husband is:

G435
ἀνήρ
anēr
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.

ANER is always a man, and cannot be a woman.



I cannot see where it allows for alternating between the ordering of "anēr of one gunē" and "gunē of one anēr".

It did not say the bishop can be a "gune". What am I missing? I am open.

are we reading from the same interlinear?
Gune if I remember right is a married woman? It has been a long time since I have read from the different translations.

[mfblume]

are we reading from the same interlinear?
Gune if I remember right is a married woman? It has been a long time since I have read from the different translations.

I am only taking the GREEK terms used in the verse and showing which position these words stand in the verse with their definitions. I cannot see how ANY version can alternate between GUNE and ANER, when it says the bishop must be an ANER of one GUNE, not a GUNE of one ANER.

[mfblume]

I am not promoting manly women but am saying women was used and can be used of God. NO GODLY woman would ever want to be manly in manner, dress or action...

I agree.

[Joelel]

I like all these additions to the Word. Does the bible say "THERE WAS NO MAN"?

All we read is this:

Jdg 4:3-5 KJV And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel. (4) And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. (5) And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

I didn't say there was no man.I said there was no ONE man.God usually used only ONE man at a time to lead his people.Why don't you address these other points I made ?

At that time God had no one man to lead his people and there were several judges at the time.Go all back though the old testement all the leaders that God had one at a time were men.How come any of the apostles were not women ? Apostles are head athority in the church.Women can't hold any head athorty because man is head (athority) of women.Women can't be a bishop because a bishop must be able to teach and a women can't teach men.A bishop must know how to rule his house so he knows how to rule the church.A woman can't rule the house or a church

[mfblume]

I didn't say there was no man.I said there was no ONE man.[

Oh, so where does the bible say "there was no one man", so God had to have a woman?

I've rarely seen such adding to the word.

God usually used only ONE man at a time to lead his people.

So? That does not prove anything.


Why don't you address these other points I made ?

Because they're all in the same category of conjecture and lack substantial evidence to prove your case that God needed "one man".


At that time God had no one man to lead his people and there were several judges at the time.Go all back though the old testement all the leaders that God had one at a time were men.

So? Deborah was still a woman and a judge. Bro. Epley alone made a good case saying that it could be okay for woman to secularly lead but not ecclesiastically. But to say that Barak was wimpy so God had to choose a woman, based upon the idea that Barak wanted a woman to go with him to deal with something, is absolutely unfounded.

[Praxeas]

Considering the prevaling social (both Jewish, Greek, and Roman) regarding the social roles of women, why is there no CLEAR CUT AFFIRMATION of these doctrines of women being in leadership in the church to be found in the New Testament?

Where is the apostolic DENUNCIATIONS of "worldly, pagan suppression of women's rights and abilities"?

Also, were the earliest Christians ever censured or derided by their peers for having "women leaders"?

Just wondering...
I have a sort of rhetorical question...It might be a radical departure from the social norm had Paul done that...and perhaps it might have caused more trouble for the church than was necessary..Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Why didn't Paul outright oppose slavery in the strongest terms? Why instead tell slaves to stay with their masters? Is slavery ok? Was that Paul's message? Or was he trying to spare the church further persecution by going against a legally and socially accepted practice that would cause people possibly financial hardship?

[Praxeas]

YOU may have provided the answer. But I do not agree she led Israel since Barak was too wimpy to do so.
Why couldn't God call another man? Or do it himself?

Isa 59:16 He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no one to intercede; then his own arm brought him salvation, and his righteousness upheld him.
Isa 59:17 He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on his head; he put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped himself in zeal as a cloak.

[Monkeyman]

and Jesus only chose Jews as His disciples... so I guess a person would have to be a jew...who knows...lol...

Serpert seed doctrine really promotes an anti woman spirit...I have dealt with it for 40 years in Brazil.

Why would anyone want to close the mouth of anyone when 6 billion people are going to hell...so sad...
Oh my, WHAT AN ANOINTED POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow did you EVER say a lot.

Do you mind if I repeat you? WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO CLOSE THE MOUTH OF ANYONE WHEN 6 BILLION PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HELL????????
??????????????????????????????????

You are full of the Holy Ghost and I admire you...WOW!!

[ManOfWord]

Oh my, WHAT AN ANOINTED POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow did you EVER say a lot.

Do you mind if I repeat you? WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO CLOSE THE MOUTH OF ANYONE WHEN 6 BILLION PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HELL????????
??????????????????????????????????

You are full of the Holy Ghost and I admire you...WOW!!

Why? I'll give you one word, and one word only will be needed...........















RELIGION!

[Monkeyman]

Why? I'll give you one word, and one word only will be needed...........















RELIGION!
I don't want ol' time religion, I don't want new time religion...I WANT JESUS!

[Joelel]

[

Oh, so where does the bible say "there was no one man", so God had to have a woman?

I've rarely seen such adding to the word.



So? That does not prove anything.



Because they're all in the same category of conjecture and lack substantial evidence to prove your case that God needed "one man".



So? Deborah was still a woman and a judge. Bro. Epley alone made a good case saying that it could be okay for woman to secularly lead but not ecclesiastically. But to say that Barak was wimpy so God had to choose a woman, based upon the idea that Barak wanted a woman to go with him to deal with something, is absolutely unfounded.

What I'm saying is Deborah was one of fourteen judges that Judged Israel at that time because God didn't have any One man to lead Israel as usual

[mfblume]

Why couldn't God call another man? Or do it himself?

Exactly!

[Sister Alvear]

God looks for vessels...

[Joelel]

Exactly!

Was the other 13 Judges men ?

[berkeley]

Was the other 13 Judges men ?

Were

[Joelel]

Exactly!

Deborah was a prophetess, I believe that is why she was one of the Judges.

[Joelel]

Were

Is that pointing at bad grammer ? Lets see,I wonder if you can construct a house from the ground up ? It's sad some are so perfect.

[berkeley]

Is that pointing at bad grammer ? Lets see,I wonder if you can construct a house from the ground up ? It's sad some are so perfect.
You left out a space between the comma and the word "I" :tiphat

[Trouvere]

I am only taking the GREEK terms used in the verse and showing which position these words stand in the verse with their definitions. I cannot see how ANY version can alternate between GUNE and ANER, when it says the bishop must be an ANER of one GUNE, not a GUNE of one ANER.

Brother Blume the word gune can be translated wives or women.
gune- from Thayers
1.A woman of any age,whether a virgin or married,or a widow.
2.a wife
2a a betrothed woman
it is a feminine noun.

[Sister Alvear]

I am not for calling women Bishop or stuff like that but a woman can and will be used of God...and if she has a calling and does not obey she stands on dangerous grounds... and more dangerous is the man who will not let her obey her calling.
I thank God that I have a very wise pastor. He may not believe in all women that call them self something but he does not believe in all the men that call them self some title either...Wise man...
Gifts make room for themselves...God may lead you to a fellowship that does appreciate your gift...I hate to sit in services that people go on and on about women...Looks like we could mature somewhat and just preach JESUS...
I love Sister A. O. Holmes she is my role model as a godly lady preacher.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I don't see female Bishops but sure women have a place in the body of Christ,and their role in Christian Ministry certainly is not taken for granted by me.

[Sister Alvear]

I have always had the feeling that God opens doors and when HE opens the door walk in...BUT don't push yourself if God needs you the occasion will arise and wise men take note...