Deltaguitar-Salvation Requires More Than Faith!

[1Corinth2v4]

Is it your faith that makes Jesus Christ work at the cross effective in our lives for salvation or is it Jesus Christ giving himself on the cross which purchased us and gave us the gift of saving faith along with repentance? This is not a trick question but it is something that I have been thinking about lately.




Deltaquitar and others,

When you read my post, please read its entirety, without skipping any sentences.



Faith without obedience voids the "cause" at the cross.

It's in our obedience that we obtain salvation. James states "faith without works is dead." If your faith is genuine, your faith's fruits will be evidentiary. I purport two faiths, one absent of works while the other is accompanied by works/manifestations. James states, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." The authentication (i.e. works, faith) of those devils believing is their trembling.


Another beautiful example of what I'm trying to convey is found in James 2:15-17. If your brother/sister is naked and hungered, and at their departure you say "depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled", and you fail to cloth or feed them, where is the sincerity in your faith of your brother/sister's well being? Your faith alone isn't enough unless it's accompanied by obedience, which is the same message the entire second chapter of James is conveying.


To acknowledge Jesus as your Lord, that requires more than a confession of Him being your master. To accept Him as your master, you must obey and submit to his rules and authority.



To understand what I'm about to state doesn't require a Theology degree. What is required is basic comprehension.



Delta here's something interesting for you to ponder. Read Roman 6:3-11, there it speaks of water baptism and its symbolism.


According to Romans 6:3-11, when we are water baptized, we are:
baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
buried with Him -Romans 6:4
raised with Him -Romans 6:4
united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
no longer slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
free from sin -Romans 6:7
we will live with Him -Romans 6:8
dead to sin -Romans 6:11
alive to God -Romans 6:11


This would conclude that when we are NOT WATER BAPTIZED, we are:
NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11


You can't argue with simple interpretation of scripture. Baptism is necessary! For this reason Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" Mark 16:16

[n david]

Wow! Great post 1Corinth2v4! :thumbsup

[KWSS1976]

So how do you explain the thief on the cross and death bed repentence as I have heard it called where is the obedience in this? The thief did not offer up a sacrifice to have his sins rolled back a year... I think faith has alot more to do with salvation then some want to believe

[1Corinth2v4]

So how do you explain the thief on the cross and death bed repentence as I have heard it called where is the obedience in this? The thief did not offer up a sacrifice to have his sins rolled back a year... I think faith has alot more to do with salvation then some want to believe

KWSS,

I already addressed that issue. Salvation in the New Testament also requires one to believe that God raised Jesus from death (Romans 10:9) The thief couldn't have been saved under the new dispensation because Jesus hadn't yet died. Furthermore, Jesus was the last sacrificial sin offering in the Old Testament, thus transferring the thief's sins upon Himself.

Regarding death bed repepntance, comapare that to Romans 6:3-11. Without water baptism, the death bed repenter is:

NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11

[Jack Shephard]

Waste of words....most of us believe what we do and nothing but God Himself would change that.

[n david]

Waste of words....most of us believe what we do and nothing but God Himself would change that.
I wouldn't call it a waste of words. It's not as though this was presented without scripture as part of a simple commentary, it wasn't. This has scripture to back it up.

[KWSS1976]

Well 1corith I will have to say that atleast one apostolic preacher would disagree with ya cause we had a good sunday school lesson yesterday on gods saving (GRACE)

[1Corinth2v4]

Waste of words....most of us believe what we do and nothing but God Himself would change that.

1 Corinthians 1:21-23

21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

[1Corinth2v4]

Well 1corith I will have to say that atleast one apostolic preacher would disagree with ya cause we had a good sunday school lesson yesterday on gods saving (GRACE)

Is this man your pastor?

[pelathais]

Deltaquitar and others,

When you read my post, please read its entirety, without skipping any sentences.
...
I'm not DeltaGuitar and I skipped most of the sentences http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif but I am still well qualified to respond.

You'll get no argument from me about human responsibility to the Gospel's call. We are to respond in faith to the works that Jesus Christ has already performed for us.

You will notice the following when you read Romans 6:3-11:

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Romans 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Romans 6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Romans 6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice that everything a Christian might do with regard to baptism is a mere reflection of the works that Christ has already done for us.

Thus, the most important thing about your repentance was not your own sorrow (though it was important). The most important thing about your repentance was that Christ had already died for your sins.

When you were "buried" in baptism with Christ the most impostant thing was not that you got wet (though you obviously got wet). The most important thing was that Christ had already been buried in a grave on your behalf.

When you rose to newness of life, the most important thing wasn't your shirt sleeves or your hem line (though modesty is important). The most important thing was that Jesus Christ had already defeated death, hell and the grave!

[KWSS1976]

Yes he is and he is a die hard 3 stepper mabey even 4 stepper but even he understands how gods grace can save us...

[1Corinth2v4]

Yes he is and he is a die hard 3 stepper mabey even 4 stepper but even he understands how gods grace can save us...

Have him study Grace -vs- Obedience.

[pelathais]

If you don't put the work of Jesus Christ ahead of the works of man in importance, then it is as if ...

... Jesus Christ never died; (Romans 6:3)
... Jesus Christ was never buried; (Romans 6:4)
... Jesus Christ had never risen from the dead (Romans 6:5).

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

[Sam]

Deltaquitar and others,
...
Delta here's something interesting for you to ponder. Read Roman 6:3-11, there it speaks of water baptism and its symbolism.
...



Is the baptism spoken of in Romans 6 that puts us into Christ, water baptism?
Or is it a work of the Spirit that happens when we believe in Jesus, of which water baptism is only a picture/figure/shadow?
Is saying that water baptism is necessary to put us into Christ confusing the shadow with the substance and trusting in the shadow/symbol/picture for salvation?

Was first century burial done by digging a hole, placing a corpse into it, and then covering completely with dirt, or was it placing a corpse in an above ground cave to allow the process of nature to take its course?

[1Corinth2v4]

If you don't put the work of Jesus Christ ahead of the works of man in importance, then it is as if ...

... Jesus Christ never died; (Romans 6:3)
... Jesus Christ was never buried; (Romans 6:4)
... Jesus Christ had never risen from the dead (Romans 6:5).

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

I gave you a simple example and you still don't understand. I don't know what else to tell you. Other people here understood. Perhaps you should PM them, that they may interpret in whatever method you would understand.

[pelathais]

Have him study Grace -vs- Obedience.
I would quibble with you here, Bro. How about, "Have him study Grace & Obedience... ?

Except, I think KW said "he" died.

An excellent couple of books on this subject are:

Elect in the Son (http://www.amazon.com/Elect-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610920) and Life in the Son (http://www.amazon.com/Life-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610912/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b) by Robert Shank. Shank was a theology professor at a prominent Baptist seminary when he first published "Elect in the Son." The book cost him his job because he took the "Wesleyan/Holiness" position.

He's actually quite balanced. A very nice pastor in Texas gave me these two books many years ago when I was a young preacher in the UPC.

[pelathais]

:ursofunny
?

[deltaguitar]

Deltaquitar and others,

When you read my post, please read its entirety, without skipping any sentences.



Faith without obedience voids the "cause" at the cross.

It's in our obedience that we obtain salvation. James states "faith without works is dead." If your faith is genuine, your faith's fruits will be evidentiary. I purport two faiths, one absent of works while the other is accompanied by works/manifestations. James states, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." The authentication (i.e. works, faith) of those devils believing is their trembling.


Another beautiful example of what I'm trying to convey is found in James 2:15-17. If your brother/sister is naked and hungered, and at their departure you say "depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled", and you fail to cloth or feed them, where is the sincerity in your faith of your brother/sister's well being? Your faith alone isn't enough unless it's accompanied by obedience, which is the same message the entire second chapter of James is conveying.


To acknowledge Jesus as your Lord, that requires more than a confession of Him being your master. To accept Him as your master, you must obey and submit to his rules and authority.



To understand what I'm about to state doesn't require a Theology degree. What is required is basic comprehension.



Delta here's something interesting for you to ponder. Read Roman 6:3-11, there it speaks of water baptism and its symbolism.


According to Romans 6:3-11, when we are water baptized, we are:
baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
buried with Him -Romans 6:4
raised with Him -Romans 6:4
united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
no longer slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
free from sin -Romans 6:7
we will live with Him -Romans 6:8
dead to sin -Romans 6:11
alive to God -Romans 6:11


This would conclude that when we are NOT WATER BAPTIZED, we are:
NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11


You can't argue with simple interpretation of scripture. Baptism is necessary! For this reason Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" Mark 16:16

My question is not about obedience but faith. I am asking is it our faith that makes Christ's work effective or did Christ purchase grace to give us faith and give us the ability to repent.

Now since you brought up obedience, how much obedience is required before we are born again. At what point do we become justified or made right with the Father?

[1Corinth2v4]

Is the baptism spoken of in Romans 6 that puts us into Christ, water baptism?
Or is it a work of the Spirit that happens when we believe in Jesus, of which water baptism is only a picture/figure/shadow?
Is saying that water baptism is necessary to put us into Christ confusing the shadow with the substance and trusting in the shadow/symbol/picture for salvation?

Was first century burial done by digging a hole, placing a corpse into it, and then covering completely with dirt, or was it placing a corpse in an above ground cave to allow the process of nature to take its course?


It speaks of water baptism.

Are you familiar with methods of burial within the first century? In any-case, according to scripture, the tomb (place of burial) was empty, thus, Jesus arising from what first century inhabitants utilized as a grave.

[1Corinth2v4]

My question is not about obedience but faith. I am asking is it our faith that makes Christ's work effective or did Christ purchase grace to give us faith and give us the ability to repent.

Now since you brought up obedience, how much obedience is required before we are born again. At what point do we become justified or made right with the Father?

I answered your question. Faith without works is dead. It's our faith that allows us to believe and become obedient.

[deltaguitar]

I answered your question. Faith without works is dead. It's our faith that allows us to believe and become obedient.

Hmmm, . . . I think I am disagreeing a little. I will respond later.

[pelathais]

I gave you a simple example and you still don't understand. I don't know what else to tell you. Other people here understood. Perhaps you should PM them, that they may interpret in whatever method you would understand.
I have exalted Jesus Christ right in front of you, and still you don't understand.

But thanks for editing you last post.

[1Corinth2v4]

I have exalted Jesus Christ right in front of you, and still you don't understand.


Where are you? I don't see anyone in front of me!:nah

[pelathais]

Where are you? I don't see anyone in front of me!:nah
Can you understand the my point in saying that the emphasis must be placed upon Jesus Christ when we are talking about salvation?

You pointed out; and pointed out correctly, as I said; all of the "you" type references in the passage from Romans 6.

My response was to simply point out and emphasize all of the "Him" type references in the same passage.

Same verses of Scripture, just a different emphasis. I feel that difference is important enought to point out.

[1Corinth2v4]

Can you understand the my point in saying that the emphasis must be placed upon Jesus Christ when we are talking about salvation?

You pointed out; and pointed out correctly, as I said; all of the "you" type references in the passage from Romans 6.

My response was to simply point out and emphasize all of the "Him" type references in the same passage.

Same verses of Scripture, just a different emphasis. I feel that difference is important enought to point out.

Pelathais,


In Romans 6, are we buried with Christ through water baptism? A yes or no answer will suffice.

[staysharp]

KWSS,

I already addressed that issue. Salvation in the New Testament also requires one to believe that God raised Jesus from death (Romans 10:9) The thief couldn't have been saved under the new dispensation because Jesus hadn't yet died. Furthermore, Jesus was the last sacrificial sin offering in the Old Testament, thus transferring the thief's sins upon Himself.

Regarding death bed repepntance, comapare that to Romans 6:3-11. Without water baptism, the death bed repenter is:

NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11

Since you sincerely believe it takes a human work to save us; then one could argue we are co-laborers in our own salvation. Also, since all this obedience is required, why don't we start with the greatest commands...loving God and your neighbor as yourself. Why don't we continue in treating others as you would want to be treated.

You see if you're going to argue we can save ourselves, then you're going to have to be perfect to be saved. Your righteousness is going to have to exceed that of the pharisees.

I know of very few Christians, who truly love their neighbor as they love themselves, and I know very few Christians who treat others as they would want to be treated. This is the fundamentals of our faith and on these commands hinge all others.

[deltaguitar]

Since you sincerely believe it takes a human work to save us; then one could argue we are co-laborers in our own salvation. Also, since all this obedience is required, why don't we start with the greatest commands...loving God and your neighbor as yourself. Why don't we continue in treating others as you would want to be treated.

You see if you're going to argue we can save ourselves, then you're going to have to be perfect to be saved. Your righteousness is going to have to exceed that of the pharisees.

I know of very few Christians, who truly love their neighbor as they love themselves, and I know very few Christians who treat others as they would want to be treated. This is the fundamentals of our faith and on these commands hinge all others.

Yeah, and what about this.

James 2:10-11 (New International Version)
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[a] also said, "Do not murder."[b] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

If you want to bring your obedience into play then you have to perfectly obey. I mean how do we love our neighbor perfectly.

[1Corinth2v4]

Since you sincerely believe it takes a human work to save us; then one could argue we are co-laborers in our own salvation. Also, since all this obedience is required, why don't we start with the greatest commands...loving God and your neighbor as yourself. Why don't we continue in treating others as you would want to be treated.

You see if you're going to argue we can save ourselves, then you're going to have to be perfect to be saved. Your righteousness is going to have to exceed that of the pharisees.


I know of very few Christians, who truly love their neighbor as they love themselves, and I know very few Christians who treat others as they would want to be treated. This is the fundamentals of our faith and on these commands hinge all others.


Go argue with James.... Obviously you didn't understand. Perhaps you should contact the witch of Endor and have her conjure James, Paul, etc.

[pelathais]

Pelathais,


In Romans 6, are we buried with Christ through water baptism? A yes or no answer will suffice.
uh... I missed the question entirely. You made a statement. I responded with another statement inviting you to look at it from another angle. And, I said I agreed with your first statement, as far as it goes.

I have just found that there's a little more spring in my step when I walk with Him as opposed to when I try and drag Him around with me.

Just two different ways of doing the samething. I think one is better, but you're free to disagree. That's why we have the Internets.http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[staysharp]

Go argue with James.... Obviously you didn't understand. Perhaps you should contact the witch of Endor and have her conjure James, Paul, etc.

This is the best you can do? unbelievable

[TRFrance]

Since you sincerely believe it takes a human work to save us; then one could argue we are co-laborers in our own salvation. Also, since all this obedience is required, why don't we start with the greatest commands...loving God and your neighbor as yourself. Why don't we continue in treating others as you would want to be treated.

You see if you're going to argue we can save ourselves, then you're going to have to be perfect to be saved. Your righteousness is going to have to exceed that of the pharisees.

I know of very few Christians, who truly love their neighbor as they love themselves, and I know very few Christians who treat others as they would want to be treated. This is the fundamentals of our faith and on these commands hinge all others.
The flaw in your argument is that you're trying to characterize obedience as a "human work".

Obedience to God's word is not a human work.

And obeying God's command doesnt not make one a "co-laborer in their own salvation."

[staysharp]

The flaw in your argument is that you're trying to characterize obedience as a "human work".

Obedience to God's word is not a human work.

And obeying God's command doesnt not make one a "co-laborer in their own salvation."

haha so let me make sure what you are saying...obedience as a result of our faith is not our works? So, giving a cup of water in Christs' name is not something I do by my own choice?

TR, I respect you, but we have a serious disconnect. If we can't obey, then how can we be saved? How can we respond, unless we hear? You make absolutely no sense to me.

[Praxeas]

haha so let me make sure what you are saying...obedience as a result of our faith is not our works? So, giving a cup of water in Christs' name is not something I do by my own choice?

TR, I respect you, but we have a serious disconnect. If we can't obey, then how can we be saved? How can we respond, unless we hear? You make absolutely no sense to me.

If you are defining works as something you can do on your own, then doesn't that make faith or believing in Him a work? And also Repentance?

[TRFrance]

If you are defining works as something you can do on your own, then doesn't that make faith or believing in Him a work? And also Repentance?
Thank you prax.
If one were to use that rationale consistently, then one might say we dont need to repent, since that's a "human work", and that would make us "co-laborers" in our own salvation.

Referring to things such as repentance and baptism as "human works" just incorrectly plays into the "salvation by works" argument. That's not what the NT is referring to when it says we are saved by faith, not by works.

(Salvation is a gift. But it does require a human response on our part. But to characterize that as "works" improperly puts our acts of obedience into the category of "works" which is NOT what Paul was referring to when he said we are saved by grace through faith, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8-9).)

[staysharp]

Thank you prax.
If one were to use that rationale consistently, then one might say we dont need to repent, since that's a "human work", and that would make us "co-laborers" in our own salvation.

Referring to things such as repentance and baptism as "human works" just incorrectly plays into the "salvation by works" argument. That's not what the NT is referring to when it says we are saved by faith, not by works.

So, with your rational, would communion be a human work? If baptism is a work of the spirit in us, then so would be communion and then of course all the "other" sacramental Christians would be saved.

[staysharp]

If you are defining works as something you can do on your own, then doesn't that make faith or believing in Him a work? And also Repentance?

You cannot come to God without faith. Faith in the Son of God who gave himself for us. You cannot have faith unless the Gospel is given to you through your hearing.

Repentance is an act of God's mercy to draw us to Christ. We cannot repent unless God deals with our hearts. But, the actual act of repenting as in Psalms 51 is our choice. Many choose not to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit.

[pelathais]

If you are defining works as something you can do on your own, then doesn't that make faith or believing in Him a work? And also Repentance?
There's a rub. "Evangelicals" often follow Calvin's lead and cite the doctrine of Irresistible Grace.

The idea is that God extends grace to "the elect" and we (and hopefully you!) are simply powerless to resist, even in our sinful state; such is the power of God's grace.

Thus, even faith and believing become something that God has done on our behalf. Salvation then, is "All of Grace" as Spurgeon preached, and not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-10).

[Praxeas]

You cannot come to God without faith.
That doesn't address what I said, however it must be pointed out nobody here is sayig you can come to God without faith

Faith in the Son of God who gave himself for us. You cannot have faith unless the Gospel is given to you through your hearing.
Same as above

Repentance is an act of God's mercy to draw us to Christ. We cannot repent unless God deals with our hearts. But, the actual act of repenting as in Psalms 51 is our choice. Many choose not to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit.
But can you be saved and NOT repent? Are we commanded to believe in Christ? Is it our faith that saves us? Again this goes to the issue of what the definition of works is. If it is merely "anythiung we can do ourselves" then faith is a work and so is repentance

[TRFrance]

So, with your rational, would communion be a human work? If baptism is a work of the spirit in us, then so would be communion and then of course all the "other" sacramental Christians would be saved.
Invalid comparison.

Communion has never been spoken of in scripture as being something elemental in he salvation process.
Baptism, on the other hand, IS spoken of as such in the scriptures.

[mizpeh]

There's a rub. "Evangelicals" often follow Calvin's lead and cite the doctrine of Irresistible Grace.

The idea is that God extends grace to "the elect" and we (and hopefully you!) are simply powerless to resist, even in our sinful state; such is the power of God's grace.

Thus, even faith and believing become something that God has done on our behalf. Salvation then, is "All of Grace" as Spurgeon preached, and not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-10).

And all choice is made void.

[pelathais]

And all choice is made void.
Or rather, moot? That's one side of the coin.

[mizpeh]

Or rather, moot? That's one side of the coin.Calvin on one side and Arminius on the other? :nah

[pelathais]

Calvin on one side and Arminius on the other? :nah
whattayou mean "Nah?"

Both views are logically consistent and self sufficient in and of themselves. The only problem is that the Bible presents both views equally. That doesn't seem to be a problem for the Bible - so how do we get our minds around something that is a fundamental paradox?

Easy. Believe the Bible.

[staysharp]

Invalid comparison.

Communion has never been spoken of in scripture as being something elemental in he salvation process.
Baptism, on the other hand, IS spoken of as such in the scriptures.

I don't know about that, Jesus makes a pretty convincing case.
Matt
26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. U know Catholics have a slightly different interpretation. lol

John 6
51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

[staysharp]

And all choice is made void.

You are misunderstanding Calvanism...

[staysharp]

Calvin on one side and Arminius on the other? :nah

Not this again? Enough already.

[pelathais]

Not this again? Enough already.
You must be patient to understand the ways of the Force, young Padawan Learner.

[deltaguitar]

I am feeling right at home with all these Calvinist. Looks like what they said was true. First you let down on the old time holiness and next thing you know you are baptist.

[mizpeh]

You are misunderstanding Calvanism...

No, I'm not misunderstanding Calvinism.

[staysharp]

I am feeling right at home with all these Calvinist. Looks like what they said was true. First you let down on the old time holiness and next thing you know you are baptist.

Are you baptist DG? I may need to speak with your pastor. I know he doesn't allow baptists to play on his platform.

[staysharp]

No, I'm not misunderstanding Calvinism.

whatever...hahaha

[pelathais]

whatever...hahaha
Boink! He really got you with the condescending laugh, Mizzie. He didn't even have to address your statement, such is the power of the condescending laugh.

[staysharp]

Boink! He really got you with the condescending laugh, Mizzie. He didn't even have to address your statement, such is the power of the condescending laugh.

How many stupid debates have we already had on this subject? I'm not interested anymore.

[Praxeas]

There's a rub. "Evangelicals" often follow Calvin's lead and cite the doctrine of Irresistible Grace.

The idea is that God extends grace to "the elect" and we (and hopefully you!) are simply powerless to resist, even in our sinful state; such is the power of God's grace.

Thus, even faith and believing become something that God has done on our behalf. Salvation then, is "All of Grace" as Spurgeon preached, and not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-10).
You know what I find ironic about people that believe that? I have witnessed the spend so much time debating doctrine....what's the point if the saved will be saved whether they want it or not?

[pelathais]

How many stupid debates have we already had on this subject? I'm not interested anymore.
Well, what else you got?

[staysharp]

Well, what else you got?

I do have another thread...ck it out...lol

[pelathais]

I do have another thread...ck it out...lol
Been there, didn't want to do that. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif Be at peace, my brother. It's good to "see" you again.

[LUKE2447]

My we have alot of closet calvinists on this board.

[Romans 14:22]

Well 1corith I will have to say that atleast one apostolic preacher would disagree with ya cause we had a good sunday school lesson yesterday on gods saving (GRACE)


Everybody did if they were using the Sunday School literature from Headquarters.

[pelathais]

My we have alot of closet calvinists on this board.
Come out of the closets, except for when ye pray (Matthew 6:6), and breathe the fresh air of freedom!

[tbpew]

You know what I find ironic about people that believe that? I have witnessed the spend so much time debating doctrine....what's the point if the saved will be saved whether they want it or not?

.....irresistable strife.....(just found as a new "6th point of Calvanism" on an ancient middle 'C' scroll containing Johnny's unabridged philosophy of dogmatic contention.

[mizpeh]

How many stupid debates have we already had on this subject? I'm not interested anymore.

It's all fine and good for you not to be interested in stupid debates on Calvinism but don't tell me I don't understand what Calvinism is, when in fact, I do. You don't know my thoughts on Calvinism! So please don't tell me I don't understand. It's annoying to say the least. :foottap

And if I wanted to debate it with you, I would have posted scripture references starting with why I believe the doctrine of original sin is a crock. That would have led into Total Depravity.

[coadie]

So how do you explain the thief on the cross and death bed repentence as I have heard it called where is the obedience in this? The thief did not offer up a sacrifice to have his sins rolled back a year... I think faith has alot more to do with salvation then some want to believe

Isn't it strange that the thief on the cross comes up so much? His dispensation was no different than King David's

[Praxeas]

Isn't it strange that the thief on the cross comes up so much? His dispensation was no different than King David's
Yes but how were they saved? By what means?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Any book recommendations for understanding Calvinism, etc?

[deltaguitar]

Any book recommendations for understanding Calvinism, etc?

Here is a seminar on Calvinism. It is fairly long but well worth it. There are nine parts. You can watch, listen, or download. :thumbsup

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/105_The_Doctrines_of_Grace/1727_TULIP_Part_1/

[*AQuietPlace*]

Here is a seminar on Calvinism. It is fairly long but well worth it. There are nine parts. You can watch, listen, or download. :thumbsup

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/105_The_Doctrines_of_Grace/1727_TULIP_Part_1/
Thanks.

[1Corinth2v4]

I've noticed when posters here are cornered like rodents, they either change the subject or ignore questions that would further discredit their elementary ideology!


Tis a shame..........

[deltaguitar]

I've noticed when posters here are cornered like rodents, they either change the subject or ignore questions that would further discredit their elementary ideology!


Tis a shame..........

Care to give an example. I don't see anyone cornered. The gospel is elementary on the other hand it takes a genius to explain the three-step doctrine in a way that people can understand.

Another thing, your attitude is the typical attitude of most restoration movements in that many feel like they are the only ones with any understanding of truth.

[1Corinth2v4]

Care to give an example. I don't see anyone cornered. And it is elementary because it takes a genius to explain the three-step doctrine in a way that people can understand.

I've seen Praxeas ask two questions, only to get ignored.


Another thing, your attitude is the typical attitude of most restoration movements in that many feel like they are the only ones with any understanding of truth.

:sad

[1Corinth2v4]

The gospel is elementary



I disagree...................

[deltaguitar]

I disagree...................

I agree that you think the gospel is complicated.

[1Corinth2v4]

I agree that you think the gospel is complicated.

Folks can't understand the concept of repentance, baptism, and Holy Ghost indwelling.

I don't think a coloring book and crayola crayons could help them.

[pelathais]

Isn't it strange that the thief on the cross comes up so much? His dispensation was no different than King David's
And the grace of God was no different for David, the Thief or the New Testament believer. :thumbsup

[pelathais]

Folks can't understand the concept of repentance, baptism, and Holy Ghost indwelling.

I don't think a coloring book and crayola crayons could help them.
Sadly my friend, you have once again left Jesus Christ out of your formulation here. That's what I can't understand. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[pelathais]

Any book recommendations for understanding Calvinism, etc?
Elect in the Son (http://www.amazon.com/Elect-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610920/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236727032&sr=1-1) and Life in the Son (http://www.amazon.com/Life-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610912/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236727032&sr=1-2) by Robert Shank. He really shook up Calvinism when Life in the Son was first published over 30 years ago. It cost him his job at a Baptist seminary, but he gave us all a balanced and Scriptural view of a complicated set of issues.

[ReformedDave]

Elect in the Son (http://www.amazon.com/Elect-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610920/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236727032&sr=1-1) and Life in the Son (http://www.amazon.com/Life-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610912/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236727032&sr=1-2) by Robert Shank. He really shook up Calvinism when Life in the Son was first published over 30 years ago. It cost him his job at a Baptist seminary, but he gave us all a balanced and Scriptural view of a complicated set of issues.

Never effectively dealt or answered Jonathan Edwards (Freedom of the Will) or John Owens (Death of Death in the Death of Christ).

[ReformedDave]

Sadly my friend, you have once again left Jesus Christ out of your formulation here. That's what I can't understand. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

There's a great observation.....many just don't get this.

[Praxeas]

I don't think they are intentionally leaving Jesus out of the equation. Most of them are dealing with the doctrine from the perspective of someone else that already believes in Jesus as the savior but has not taken the next "necessary steps"

Unfortunately though, because so many of us are in that mentality that often in discussion and in preaching that part of of the equation get's left out. My fear is that it filters down to those that only hear the "rest of the equation"

[mizpeh]

There's a great observation.....many just don't get this.Some folks think faith in Christ is understood. Without faith in Christ, why would one repent, be baptized, ask for the gift of God's Spirit?

[pelathais]

Never effectively dealt or answered Jonathan Edwards (Freedom of the Will) or John Owens (Death of Death in the Death of Christ).
LOL, thanks Dave. I'll have to go back to those classics too. I tend to see "both sides of the coin," I was telling Mizpeh a while back. I think there's a fundamental paradox involved that we don't really have language to completely encompass.

From my Apostolic background, however, the "Evangelical" point of view was liberating once I got a handle on it. It's a view that exalts Christ and lifts Him up as Savior to a greater degree than my own "works based" viewpoint had.

[pelathais]

I don't think they are intentionally leaving Jesus out of the equation. Most of them are dealing with the doctrine from the perspective of someone else that already believes in Jesus as the savior but has not taken the next "necessary steps"

Unfortunately though, because so many of us are in that mentality that often in discussion and in preaching that part of of the equation get's left out. My fear is that it filters down to those that only hear the "rest of the equation"
True. I remember Hearing David Bernard and JL Hall talk about this. Both of them pointed out the need for "us" to include more discussion about Christ and the work at Calvary as being the key focus of our salvation. Sounds obvious to some, but when you go back and listen to our preaching and teaching you do see that link missing altogether all too often.

We should never assume everyone in our audience "understands" the importance of The Gift (Ephesians 2:4-10). We need to hammer away on that theme and drill it into our collective heart and soul. We are His workmanship! He did the work. He is the Craftsman. He is the Architect. He is both Author and Finisher.

[pelathais]

Some folks think faith in Christ is understood. Without faith in Christ, why would one repent, be baptized, ask for the gift of God's Spirit?
Because that's what their daddy did? And his grandma before him, and so forth?

My 6 times great-grandfather was an Anglican minister from Scotland. This was during the period of the reascension of the Anglican "High Church" after the English Civil Wars. Only problem was, my ancestor was something of a religious rebel and a "Separatist." He left Scotland, either on his own or under force, I don't know, and tried to find a place for himself and his family in Ulster. For whatever reasons, that was a fairly brief stay.

He came to the American colony of Virginia in the 1700's and later moved to North Carolina. He founded what must have been among the first inter-racial churches in North America. His brand of "Separatism" didn't accord well with the Quakers or Friends, and he didn't seem to hitch up with the Presbyterians and Congregationalist either. He seems to have been a "G.I.B." as some would say - a Good Independent Brother.

His son (my namesake), grandson, great-grandson (another namesake) and the next two generations were all ministers. They left a string of churches and the family name along a path from North and South Carolina, through Tennessee and into Arkansas and Oklahoma, roughly following the "Trail of Tears" by coincidence, though my great-grandmother and her mother-in-law were both Cherokee themselves.

For whatever reason, both my paternal grandfather, the son of a minister and my father were rather devoted atheists. I was never told of the heritage I had except a few brief references to my great grandfather having been a "minister." Everyone but my uncle seemed to almost snicker about that. My great grandmother, the grand daughter of people who walked that "Trail of Tears" lived until I was well into my teens. She spoke fondly of her husband but never breathed a word about religion or God or anything supernatural to me whatsoever.

These thoughts cross my mind as I consider that first sentence in this post. When I was 11 years old I got ahold of Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth and I studied that book inside and out with the only Bible I could find at the time - a Rheims Douay Catholic Bible. I used Lindsey's book as a template for exploring and understanding the Bible for myself for the very first time in my life. I remember distinctly that at about that same time my father was reading Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged.

I guess we all have underlying presumptions about our faith. I thought "Dispensationalism" was the same thing as "Bible Prophecy" until late in my twenties. And even then I thought it was the only "correct" view for many years to come.

The one thing we can never presume however is Jesus Christ.

We are buried with Him.
We are raised with Him.
We are planted in the likeness of His death.
We shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
We are crucified with Him.
We are dead with Christ.
We live with Him.
Death hath no more dominion over Him.
He died.
He died unto sin.
He liveth.
He liveth unto God.
We are alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1-11.

[ReformedDave]

The one thing we can never presume however is Jesus Christ.

We are buried with Him.
We are raised with Him.
We are planted in the likeness of His death.
We shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
We are crucified with Him.
We are dead with Christ.
We live with Him.
Death hath no more dominion over Him.
He died.
He died unto sin.
He liveth.
He liveth unto God.
We are alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1-11.

I actually 'liked' parts of Rands' book...(LOL) She was a great thinker.

I'm reminded of that old song "Jesus paid it all. All to Him I owe...." The only thing I have to contribute is my sin.

[mizpeh]

The one thing we can never presume however is Jesus Christ.

We are buried with Him.
We are raised with Him.
We are planted in the likeness of His death.
We shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
We are crucified with Him.
We are dead with Christ.
We live with Him.
Death hath no more dominion over Him.
He died.
He died unto sin.
He liveth.
He liveth unto God.
We are alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1-11.Did you research your geneology yourself? The line of ministers was broken with your grandfather. I wonder what happened?

These verses from Romans 6 are the symbolic picture of what Acts 2:38 represents to an obedient believer.

[pelathais]

Did you research your geneology yourself? The line of ministers was broken with your grandfather. I wonder what happened?

These verses from Romans 6 are the symbolic picture of what Acts 2:38 represents to an obedient believer.
I started by myself but didn't get far. I had a picture of my great-great grandparents and remembered his name. From there I plugged into some online genealogy sites and found the work of distant cousins. They filled in most of the blanks for me.

I don't know what broke things down. They were never wealthy people. The far right column on the census forms are for the number of slaves owned. Nobody in my family ever seemed to have been slave holders despite being in the South going back to the 1600's. That coupled with all of the "half breeds" makes it seem like there was some social ostracism, though I can only speculate. They were also in church fellowship with free blacks and slaves. It's all listed in one of the church's minutes.

They all found their way up into the Ozarks to sit out the Civil War. Then, later, on to the "new" Oklahoma oil fields and farther West.

My grandfather's generation was interesting. The oldest was born in Arkansas. The next in Oklahoma. My grandfather was born back in Arkansas and his sister was born in Oklahoma. It seems like they were following boom and bust in the oil fields until moving West in the 1920's just ahead of the Dust Bowl. Otherwise, they might have been blown as far as California with the "Okies," and then I'd be a real mess. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[pelathais]

There's an interesting story concerning my brother's name. He's Tom. There is no "Thomas" along the whole paternal line, however for about the last 4 or 5 generations the men have had the middle name of "Tom" or Thomas. The father was known by his first name, the the "junior" was called Tom or Tommy. That carried all the way through to my dad who named his first born "Thomas" and dispensed with the zig-zagging nature of the names.

In the church minutes of a church in North Carolina dated between 1796 and 1804 - my namesake, who was about early twenties and who also was the "preacher's kid," is listed as being censured by the church for drinking "spirituous liquors." It appears that he and a "free black brother" name "Tom" got hold of a bottle and sowed some wild oats together. "Tom, a free black" is named as being censured at the same time for the same reason.

It was in the following generation that the name "Thomas" enters the family record. Apparently a real friendship had been made between the two wayward and backsliding young men that is carried down to this day in the family's history.

[TRFrance]

Some folks think faith in Christ is understood. Without faith in Christ, why would one repent, be baptized, ask for the gift of God's Spirit?
Makes perfect sense to me.

I hear the argument frequently: "You're preaching 3-steps , but you're leaving out Christ".

But nobody could go through the "3 steps" without faith in Christ.

[pelathais]

These verses from Romans 6 are the symbolic picture of what Acts 2:38 represents to an obedient believer.
That's an important application. However, we still must recognize that it was "Him." He died. He was buried. He rose again.

That doesn't just "open a door" for me to symbolically copy the mode of His suffering and death. What He did gives me life in the first place.

I know that no one is denying that. It's just that we so often have left that as an unspoken assumption that other people don't understand our message at all. How do you think the "charge" of Christianity Without the Cross became so popular? It's because after listening to us talk and preach, many people simply came away with that impression.

And, from my own experience among Apostolics, this has been the case as well. When I began to start to get a hold of the importance of Jesus Christ and the Sovereignty of God in securing my salvation I was stirred. I began to really preach Jesus, and Him crucified.

Sadly, in my own church my pastor and others would sometimes interrupt my preaching to "provide balance." I was preaching, "It's All in Him..." and not just "the fullness of the Godhead," all our hope, all our dreams and all of our salvation. It's all in Him!

That's not a popular message. I really thought that I was carrying out Brother Hall's and Brother Bernard's advice. But I soon learned that this was a message that was not welcome entirely among us.

I gotta go. I have a "UPC gig" this week and some down time coming up. My wife's after me to finish packing. God bless you all. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Michael The Disciple]

Makes perfect sense to me.

I hear the argument frequently: "You're preaching 3-steps , but you're leaving out Christ".

But nobody could go through the "3 steps" without faith in Christ.

That is the right road. We DO the things we DO because we believe in Jesus. If Jesus says we must be baptized to be saved for instance we then arise and get baptized because of our faith in his words.

[Michael The Disciple]

Those who are flirting with what they call "Calvinism" will usually draw back when it comes to predestination. They cant believe that GOD and not man makes the choice of who will believe.

[TRFrance]

Those who are flirting with what they call "Calvinism" will usually draw back when it comes to predestination. They cant believe that GOD and not man makes the choice of who will believe.

Kind of a modified neo-Calvinism, perhaps.

[Timmy]

Those who are flirting with what they call "Calvinism" will usually draw back when it comes to predestination. They cant believe that GOD and not man makes the choice of who will believe.

What's you guys' take on Matt 22:14?

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

Who are called? Who, out of those who are called, are chosen? Who chose? What about the ones who were called but not chosen?

:hmmm

[KWSS1976]

I think it is talking about many are called to teach and preach but few are chosen to do so I myself do not think it is taking about salvation as most do..just my take on it..

[TRFrance]

I think it is talking about many are called to teach and preach but few are chosen to do so I myself do not think it is taking about salvation as most do..just my take on it..

The context of verse has to do with people being called to salvation... not called to preaching/teaching. (Matt 22:1-14)

[LUKE2447]

Apostolic and Calvinism..... How do these relate in any way? Sorry you can junk standards to some degree but calvinism. Nope!

[KWSS1976]

Ok got ya TR I reread it but I still do not think that is is talking about the UPC/Apostolic church in general from what I read it is sounding to me talking about people not believing in jesus christ. That is one on the arguments I hear from peps in the UPC talking to other peps I've had it said to me before and I believe looking at it I think it is talking about the unbeliever and lord knows we have plenty of those in the world...

[DividedThigh]

wow even i agree with you i cor dude, lol, miracles are still possible, dt

[*AQuietPlace*]

There's an interesting story concerning my brother's name. He's Tom. There is no "Thomas" along the whole paternal line, however for about the last 4 or 5 generations the men have had the middle name of "Tom" or Thomas. The father was known by his first name, the the "junior" was called Tom or Tommy. That carried all the way through to my dad who named his first born "Thomas" and dispensed with the zig-zagging nature of the names.

In the church minutes of a church in North Carolina dated between 1796 and 1804 - my namesake, who was about early twenties and who also was the "preacher's kid," is listed as being censured by the church for drinking "spirituous liquors." It appears that he and a "free black brother" name "Tom" got hold of a bottle and sowed some wild oats together. "Tom, a free black" is named as being censured at the same time for the same reason.

It was in the following generation that the name "Thomas" enters the family record. Apparently a real friendship had been made between the two wayward and backsliding young men that is carried down to this day in the family's history.
That's a neat story.

[pelathais]

Those who are flirting with what they call "Calvinism" will usually draw back when it comes to predestination. They cant believe that GOD and not man makes the choice of who will believe.

I think you've got something mixed up here, Bro. "They" ("so-called Calvinists") do believe in predestination and they do believe that GOD and not man makes the choice of who believes. This is the Doctrine of Election.

Personally, I find Calvinism to be incomplete here. Both views are correct, IMHO.

Kind of a modified neo-Calvinism, perhaps.
Instead of looking at the ideas as opposing viewpoints, one on one side of a line on a piece of paper and the the other on the other side of the line; how about trying to put the ideas into three dimensional space?

Instead of a black and white world with a shade of gray representing "flirting" with an idea; how about looking at all the colors of the spectrum?

The idea of predestination is argued quite strongly and emphatically by Paul. Yet even Paul sought to persuade people to do something with the Gospel. I see both views as being correct - simultaneously. It's a fundamental paradox. We are dealing with the mind of God, here.

Will the Almighty be surprised at who makes it into heaven? You remember the old yarn? The people who you thought were going to make it won't and those you didn't think would make it do? Will God be among the surprised? Of course not. He already knows about the victory and the overcoming stregnth that you and I have only begun to tap into.

That's one the the cool things I find in the so-called "Calvinist" view, though it's much older than Calvin and goes back to Augustine and before him, Paul. God has confidence in my victories. That means I will be victorious. Of course, to actually achieve that victory I still have to actually do something.

But with the fear of ultimate failure gone, I feel a great deal more confident when I do those things that I ought.

[*AQuietPlace*]

I was raised Oneness Pentecostal, and it wasn't until I was in my thirties that I began to really understand what had happened on the cross. Even if we don't intend to, we often become very works based, and leave Jesus out of the equation. It transformed my walk with God when I understood that Jesus had done the work!

[KWSS1976]

That is something I have never agreed with is the word "WORKS" what is works. Living for the lord is easy it is not work to live for Jesus. Someone explain "WORKS" is it the repenting,baptising etc....

[mizpeh]

That's an important application. However, we still must recognize that it was "Him." He died. He was buried. He rose again.

That doesn't just "open a door" for me to symbolically copy the mode of His suffering and death. What He did gives me life in the first place.

I know that no one is denying that. It's just that we so often have left that as an unspoken assumption that other people don't understand our message at all. How do you think the "charge" of Christianity Without the Cross became so popular? It's because after listening to us talk and preach, many people simply came away with that impression.

And, from my own experience among Apostolics, this has been the case as well. When I began to start to get a hold of the importance of Jesus Christ and the Sovereignty of God in securing my salvation I was stirred. I began to really preach Jesus, and Him crucified.

Sadly, in my own church my pastor and others would sometimes interrupt my preaching to "provide balance." I was preaching, "It's All in Him..." and not just "the fullness of the Godhead," all our hope, all our dreams and all of our salvation. It's all in Him!

That's not a popular message. I really thought that I was carrying out Brother Hall's and Brother Bernard's advice. But I soon learned that this was a message that was not welcome entirely among us.

I gotta go. I have a "UPC gig" this week and some down time coming up. My wife's after me to finish packing. God bless you all. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You're leaving after posting this!!! I have some questions!!! Hey, wait, come back!!!

I don't understand how preaching the grace of God and the cross of Christ can offend other Christians!!! It makes me feel undeserving, very loved, and wanting to honor God in all that I do and say.


Enjoy the presence of the Lord and ignore some of the stuff that is preached. You can usually find an appetizer and sometimes a full course at "UPC gigs". Have fun at the beach.

[deltaguitar]

Those who are flirting with what they call "Calvinism" will usually draw back when it comes to predestination. They cant believe that GOD and not man makes the choice of who will believe.

Much of what Calvinism teaches is beneficial even if we don't believe it 100%. Just like the Oneness and Trinity doctrines Calvinism tries to deal with difficult areas of scripture head on.

And though I am no expert you are oversimplifying predestination.

[pelathais]

You're leaving after posting this!!! I have some questions!!! Hey, wait, come back!!!

I don't understand how preaching the grace of God and the cross of Christ can offend other Christians!!! It makes me feel undeserving, very loved, and wanting to honor God in all that I do and say.


Enjoy the presence of the Lord and ignore some of the stuff that is preached. You can usually find an appetizer and sometimes a full course at "UPC gigs". Have fun at the beach.
I had to break off to pack last night... didn't think there'd be any down time today. A friend is supposed to be preaching and he's a really good guy. I used to work with his dad who was a "high official." LOL. No really, this guy ran the whole org and did a great job, but never got enough credit. Even Bro. Urshan stood up a little straighter when he was in the room.

I should stop. I'll pull the good half of the UPC down with me.

[Michael The Disciple]

Much of what Calvinism teaches is beneficial even if we don't believe it 100%. Just like the Oneness and Trinity doctrines Calvinism tries to deal with difficult areas of scripture head on.

And though I am no expert you are oversimplifying predestination.

My point is that everyone seems to be wanting to do away with obedience in their zeal to prove salvation is by God alone.

Yet when they are presented with the full revelation of the doctrine of grace that God choses his elect before the foundation of the world not according to what we are doing but according to his own purposes THEN it is they who turn back and think THEY had a free will choice in their salvation.

God takes the credit for who comes to him. Yes from our view point it seems we have chosen him. Yet if we are ever able to receive it we chose him because we were ordained to do so.

So sure enough if anyone actually gets saved it was Gods work.

[pelathais]

That is something I have never agreed with is the word "WORKS" what is works. Living for the lord is easy it is not work to live for Jesus. Someone explain "WORKS" is it the repenting,baptising etc....
Technically, "works" in the NT refer to the "works of the Law." So, I suppose repentance might fall under that umbrella, but not baptism and certainly not receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

However, the term is often applied to those (like Apostolics) who at least appear to place an over-emphasis on human will and human activity when it comes to salvation.

Luther and Calvin compared the sacraments of the Catholic Church, indulgences, penance (crawling around sacred sites on your knees while praying the Rosary) and such things with "works" that are done to "earn" salvation.

It was while he was crawling on his hands and knees up the Spanish Steps in Rome (a huge outdoor stair case) that Luther said he received his revelation that "The just shall live by faith..." In other words, faith in what Jesus had already done for him would be his salvation and not his labor out there in the hot sun on his hands and knees.

In the Apostolic movement there is often a coercion that takes place to manipulate people into doing things. I once was called upon to stand in a pulpit and tell a congregation that if they didn't show up on an "off night" to do some evangelism as the pastor had asked, they would be lost.

I tried to finesse that a bit. I told folks instead that they could have an "opportunity to see people receive the Holy Ghost!" Who would want to miss that? But the pastor's wife angrily shouted me down and invoked a local preacher who taught the "Half Shekel"* heresy. She rebuked me while I stood there in the pulpit for not telling the church folks that they were all going to hell.

*The "Half Shekel" teaching says that you can buy your salvation and even healing in your body if you gave "a tithe plus five!" or 15% of your income to the church. It was growing in popularity in the UPC at the time. Dan Seagraves wrote an excellent article in the Forward to try and warn our ministers against this false teaching, but hey - an extra 5% looks pretty good when you're saving up for a horse farm or Florida condo.

Because of the way we approach people with the "YOU HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED... YOU HAVE TO SPEAK IN TONGUES" and we so often leave out the "JESUS MADE A WAY FOR US ALL!" many people in our society have looked upon us as offering a "works based" version of salvation rather than a "faith based" one.

Because of the way we tell our people in our churches "YOU HAVE TO TITHE...YOU HAVE TO PRAY IN THE PRAYER ROOM...YOU! OVER THERE! TAKE A LAP!" most of our people have also adopted a "works based" view of living for God.

[Timmy]

The context of verse has to do with people being called to salvation... not called to preaching/teaching. (Matt 22:1-14)

So, many (perhaps all humans?) are called to salvation, but only a few (a small percentage of humans) are chosen for salvation. Chosen? It doesn't say few choose (or accept) salvation. Apparently, someone chooses and saves just a fraction of those who were called. Interesting.

[pelathais]

My point is that everyone seems to be wanting to do away with obedience in their zeal to prove salvation is by God alone.

Yet when they are presented with the full revelation of the doctrine of grace that God choses his elect before the foundation of the world not according to what we are doing but according to his own purposes THEN it is they who turn back and think THEY had a free will choice in their salvation.

God takes the credit for who comes to him. Yes from our view point it seems we have chosen him. Yet if we are ever able to receive it we chose him because we were ordained to do so.

So sure enough if anyone actually gets saved it was Gods work.
That's well put. :thumbsup

[pelathais]

So, many (perhaps all humans?) are called to salvation, but only a few (a small percentage of humans) are chosen for salvation. Chosen? It doesn't say few choose (or accept) salvation. Apparently, someone chooses and saves just a fraction of those who were called. Interesting.
There's a fundamental paradox at work. It's like trying to see both sides of a coin, in detail, at the same time. The more you focus your attention on one side of the coin, the less you can see of the other, until very quickly the other side is lost to your view entirely.

The only way to see and appreciate both sides of the coin is to study each side in detail and in turn. Sometimes when you're preaching this, you will need to really drill down on "grace" or perhaps your audience needs the "obedience" side. Either way, to be balanced you really need to emphasize each point of view in turn - and emphatically!

Don't back off on grace just to show "the brethren" that you're still a tough guy preacher. And don't ignore "obedience" just to mollify the folks at Charisma Magazine.

[Timmy]

There's a fundamental paradox at work. It's like trying to see both sides of a coin, in detail, at the same time. The more you focus your attention on one side of the coin, the less you can see of the other, until very quickly the other side is lost to your view entirely.

The only way to see and appreciate both sides of the coin is to study each side in detail and in turn. Sometimes when you're preaching this, you will need to really drill down on "grace" or perhaps your audience needs the "obedience" side. Either way, to be balanced you really need to emphasize each point of view in turn - and emphatically!

Don't back off on grace just to show "the brethren" that you're still a tough guy preacher. And don't ignore "obedience" just to mollify the folks at Charisma Magazine.

Paradox? Let's see, one side of the coin says "For many are called, but few are chosen," "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation," "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," and many mentions of "the elect". It's God's choice who is saved. The other side of this paradoxical coin talks about whosoever will, and all ye who labor, etc. It's our choice.

One way to resolve conflicts like this is to paint (interpret) one side to look more like the other. It's our choice, but only if God chooses us to choose! Or, God chooses everyone, but it's up to us to choose to be, uh, chosen! Or some such.

Another way to deal with it is to call it a contradiction. But, that's not allowed, so forget it! There are no contradictions in the Bible. Only apparent contradictions. And God put apparent contradictions in His Word, just so we would have to exercise faith to believe that it is God's Word. Or something like that.

[Timmy]

Oh, there's another way to resolve the "paradox". Flip that coin and see where it lands! :lol

[mizpeh]

I think you've got something mixed up here, Bro. "They" ("so-called Calvinists") do believe in predestination and they do believe that GOD and not man makes the choice of who believes. This is the Doctrine of Election.

Personally, I find Calvinism to be incomplete here. Both views are correct, IMHO.


Instead of looking at the ideas as opposing viewpoints, one on one side of a line on a piece of paper and the the other on the other side of the line; how about trying to put the ideas into three dimensional space?

Instead of a black and white world with a shade of gray representing "flirting" with an idea; how about looking at all the colors of the spectrum?

The idea of predestination is argued quite strongly and emphatically by Paul. Yet even Paul sought to persuade people to do something with the Gospel. I see both views as being correct - simultaneously. It's a fundamental paradox. We are dealing with the mind of God, here.

Will the Almighty be surprised at who makes it into heaven? You remember the old yarn? The people who you thought were going to make it won't and those you didn't think would make it do? Will God be among the surprised? Of course not. He already knows about the victory and the overcoming stregnth that you and I have only begun to tap into.

That's one the the cool things I find in the so-called "Calvinist" view, though it's much older than Calvin and goes back to Augustine and before him, Paul. God has confidence in my victories. That means I will be victorious. Of course, to actually achieve that victory I still have to actually do something.

But with the fear of ultimate failure gone, I feel a great deal more confident when I do those things that I ought.

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

These two verses fit in with what you are saying.

It sounds like you're a little more balanced now. Too bad he felt the need to "interupt" your preaching.

Sadly, in my own church my pastor and others would sometimes interrupt my preaching to "provide balance." I was preaching, "It's All in Him..." and not just "the fullness of the Godhead," all our hope, all our dreams and all of our salvation. It's all in Him!

Prov 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?


The Almighty judge of the whole world knows the final destination of every soul. He knew it before He created the world.

[pelathais]

Paradox? Let's see, one side of the coin says "For many are called, but few are chosen," "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation," "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," and many mentions of "the elect". It's God's choice who is saved. The other side of this paradoxical coin talks about whosoever will, and all ye who labor, etc. It's our choice.

One way to resolve conflicts like this is to paint (interpret) one side to look more like the other. It's our choice, but only if God chooses us to choose! Or, God chooses everyone, but it's up to us to choose to be, uh, chosen! Or some such.

Another way to deal with it is to call it a contradiction. But, that's not allowed, so forget it! There are no contradictions in the Bible. Only apparent contradictions. And God put apparent contradictions in His Word, just so we would have to exercise faith to believe that it is God's Word. Or something like that.
Matter (or mass) is inversly proportional to energy as it moves away from the speed of light. We can simplify that by saying, "E=MC2" or simplify further by saying that energy and mass are the same thing, just in different conditions. In other words, given the right conditions E=M.

That much we know and it has been firmly established by both observational and experimental data. So then we should be able to understand the mass of a photon, right? Wrong.

We live with many fundamental paradoxes in our world.

Medieval savants believed that the angels held the planets in their orbits. How does this medieval view differ from our modern view of gravity? Physicist Richard Feynman used to burst out laughing when trying to explain that question to his students. It was one of his favorite one-liners- and he got a Nobel Prize for physics.

[mizpeh]

*The "Half Shekel" teaching says that you can buy your salvation and even healing in your body if you gave "a tithe plus five!" or 15% of your income to the church. It was growing in popularity in the UPC at the time. Dan Seagraves wrote an excellent article in the Forward to try and warn our ministers against this false teaching, but hey - an extra 5% looks pretty good when you're saving up for a horse farm or Florida condo.

Because of the way we approach people with the "YOU HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED... YOU HAVE TO SPEAK IN TONGUES" and we so often leave out the "JESUS MADE A WAY FOR US ALL!" many people in our society have looked upon us as offering a "works based" version of salvation rather than a "faith based" one.

Because of the way we tell our people in our churches "YOU HAVE TO TITHE...YOU HAVE TO PRAY IN THE PRAYER ROOM...YOU! OVER THERE! TAKE A LAP!" most of our people have also adopted a "works based" view of living for God.Okay, Pel, I can see where you're coming from but not every UPC preacher is like this. I'm glad you see that there is another half to the UPC.

Would you appreciate someone who said...You WILL speak in tongues when you receive the Holy Spirit and one of the purposes of baptism is to remit sins? Would that be more palatible to you than "YOU HAVE TO"?

[mizpeh]

My point is that everyone seems to be wanting to do away with obedience in their zeal to prove salvation is by God alone.

Yet when they are presented with the full revelation of the doctrine of grace that God choses his elect before the foundation of the world not according to what we are doing but according to his own purposes THEN it is they who turn back and think THEY had a free will choice in their salvation.

God takes the credit for who comes to him. Yes from our view point it seems we have chosen him. Yet if we are ever able to receive it we chose him because we were ordained to do so.

So sure enough if anyone actually gets saved it was Gods work.

I see it a little differently. Because of God's foreknowledge, He knew from before the world began who would choose to walk in His ways. He knows the end from the beginning. The entirety of history was known of God before it could be called "history". So we do have a free choice to live according to God's original design and intent. He foresaw our choices. After seeing the end, God called, predestined, justified, and glorified.

Did God step into future history and cause some redirection? I think so, but nothing that would ultimately restrict our freedom to choose.

[pelathais]

It sounds like you're a little more balanced now. Too bad he felt the need to "interupt" your preaching.
Maybe someone with greater wisdom than I possess will be able to help me, but it seems to me that to achieve "balance" and to give both sides of the scale their due, you must go full throttle on each theme.

[pelathais]

Okay, Pel, I can see where you're coming from but not every UPC preacher is like this. I'm glad you see that there is another half to the UPC.

Would you appreciate someone who said...You WILL speak in tongues when you receive the Holy Spirit and one of the purposes of baptism is to remit sins? Would that be more palatible to you than "YOU HAVE TO"?
I don't know that I am convinced any longer that every believer will speak in tongues. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[mizpeh]

Maybe someone with greater wisdom than I possess will be able to help me, but it seems to me that to achieve "balance" and to give both sides of the scale their due, you must go full throttle on each theme.

I think there is a balance.

Here's another paradoxical verse:

1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Paul worked.

God gave grace to work.

The balance is a mutuality of purpose. Can't leave off the responsibility of man to the expense of the grace of God and visa versa.

[pelathais]

Okay, Pel, I can see where you're coming from but not every UPC preacher is like this. I'm glad you see that there is another half to the UPC.
That's what may trigger most of my angry rants. I don't like to see that "other half" being treated as they are. I never have. You can walk all over me, but someone has to speak up sometimes...

[mizpeh]

I don't know that I am convinced any longer that every believer will speak in tongues. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Even if you no longer believe it, could you respect someone else's belief that tongues is a sign of someone being filled with the Spirit without becoming divisive? Could you fellowship, as in not just eat bread with but worship God as well, with someone who taught that doctrine?

[mizpeh]

That's what may trigger most of my angry rants. I don't like to see that "other half" being treated as they are. I never have. You can walk all over me, but someone has to speak up sometimes...I just started reading The Grace Awakening but Charles Swindoll today. You would like the first chapter. ;)

[Arphaxad]

That is something I have never agreed with is the word "WORKS" what is works. Living for the lord is easy it is not work to live for Jesus. Someone explain "WORKS" is it the repenting,baptising etc....

my take on "works" are things like doing good deeds for others. Some people think that these kinds of "works" cancel out their sin. ( God won't send me to hell because I'm a good person). I used to think like that before I came to know the Truth.
:doggyrun

[Michael The Disciple]

I see it a little differently. Because of God's foreknowledge, He knew from before the world began who would choose to walk in His ways. He knows the end from the beginning. The entirety of history was known of God before it could be called "history". So we do have a free choice to live according to God's original design and intent. He foresaw our choices. After seeing the end, God called, predestined, justified, and glorified.

Did God step into future history and cause some redirection? I think so, but nothing that would ultimately restrict our freedom to choose.

I hear what you are saying but much scripture teaches predestination. Calvin did not invent that and it is one of the few things he did seem to understand.

[deltaguitar]

I see it a little differently. Because of God's foreknowledge, He knew from before the world began who would choose to walk in His ways. He knows the end from the beginning. The entirety of history was known of God before it could be called "history". So we do have a free choice to live according to God's original design and intent. He foresaw our choices. After seeing the end, God called, predestined, justified, and glorified.

Did God step into future history and cause some redirection? I think so, but nothing that would ultimately restrict our freedom to choose.

So now your a Calvinist too. :smack :thumbsup

[mizpeh]

I hear what you are saying but much scripture teaches predestination. Calvin did not invent that and it is one of the few things he did seem to understand.

I believe in predestination. There are different viewpoints on predestination. Calvin is not the only one who believed in predestination. He didn't corner the market on this doctrine.

But the Bible teaches that God predestines according to his foreknowledge of future events. A Calvinist would say that God chooses according to His sovereignity, arbitrarily without foreknowledge, which in effect nullifies the free will he has given us.

[mizpeh]

So now your a Calvinist too. :smack :thumbsupThis is where I learned about Calvinism from a Calvinist.


http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/268theologyquestions

see questions 185-192

Then read again what I wrote and you will know that I am not a Calvinist. I don't believe in the doctrines of original sin, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, and irrestible grace. There are some aspects I agree with in some of their doctrines but as a whole, no way. I think it presents a God contrary to the one I read about in the Bible. It makes God out to be unjust, unfair, and contradictory.

But, yes, I believe in predestination just not in the same way as Calvinists do.

[Sam]

...
But, yes, I believe in predestination just not in the same way as Calvinists do.

I don't try to understand predestination and free will or Calvinism and Arminianism.

I believe that God knows everything that ever has happened and everything that ever will happen --that nothing ever takes Him by surprise. I believe that God knew me before I was born. He knew when I would come to Him and surrender to Him. He knows what I'll have for lunch today (I don't know that yet), that He knows everything I will ever do throughout the rest of my life, and He knows when I will die. Yet, with all that knowledge and foreknowledge, He does not interfere with my will. I don't know if that fits into any theological system but that's how I see it.

[Michael The Disciple]

I believe in predestination. There are different viewpoints on predestination. Calvin is not the only one who believed in predestination. He didn't corner the market on this doctrine.

But the Bible teaches that God predestines according to his foreknowledge of future events. A Calvinist would say that God chooses according to His sovereignity, arbitrarily without foreknowledge, which in effect nullifies the free will he has given us.

What you believe is not predestination. Paul believed in Gods sovereignty.

11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom. 9:11-16

Of course men say this was just concerning National Israel. However Paul was teaching about salvation all through Romans regardless whether Israel was the subject.

His answer to the "free will" error is he will have mercy on whom HE will and compassion on whom HE will. He does not promise favor to everyone.

My point in regards to this thread is we have people wanting to go the way of Calvinism because they think it offers them freedom from what they consider harsh traditions of the Apostolics.

In reality the HEART of Calvinism is predestination which they seemingly all reject.

They want to talk about how salvation is of God and not men but the real basis of that belief is the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.


16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

So indeed salvation is from God and not man. The elect whom he has given favor will respond to his favor in a positive way.

5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:4

People want the un merited favor without the meaning of un merited.

[1Corinth2v4]

The Fact Remains



According to Romans 6:3-11, WHEN WE ARE WATER BAPTIZED, we are: baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
buried with Him -Romans 6:4
raised with Him -Romans 6:4
united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
no longer slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
free from sin -Romans 6:7
we will live with Him -Romans 6:8
dead to sin -Romans 6:11
alive to God -Romans 6:11

This would conclude that when we are NOT WATER BAPTIZED, we are:NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11

[KWSS1976]

Sure its not holyghost baptism cause I read is the word (baptised) do not see water anywhere in the scripture?

[1Corinth2v4]

Sure its not holyghost baptism cause I read is the word (baptised) do not see water anywhere in the scripture?

I'm very positive it speaks on water baptism. Not to mention thousands of theologians, many being trinitarians also teach that those specified scriptures speak on water baptism. Even Mormons and JW's understand those scriptures to speak on individual baptism and its' significance!

[KWSS1976]

So there no holyghost baptism?

[1Corinth2v4]

So there no holyghost baptism?

Hello..........


UNDERSTAND.......


There's a Holy Ghost baptism, however, those specified scriptures speak about water baptism ONLY.

[KWSS1976]

Ok so there is 2 baptisms you have to go through to be saved?

[Michael The Disciple]

I don't try to understand predestination and free will or Calvinism and Arminianism.

I believe that God knows everything that ever has happened and everything that ever will happen --that nothing ever takes Him by surprise. I believe that God knew me before I was born. He knew when I would come to Him and surrender to Him. He knows what I'll have for lunch today (I don't know that yet), that He knows everything I will ever do throughout the rest of my life, and He knows when I will die. Yet, with all that knowledge and foreknowledge, He does not interfere with my will. I don't know if that fits into any theological system but that's how I see it.

Hi Sam,

On the day Paul was heading to Damascus to kill more Christians Yeshua the Messiah blinded him, and showed himself visibly to him.

That does not look like free will salvation to me. Looks like Yeshua CAUSED him to believe.

[1Corinth2v4]

Ok so there is 2 baptisms you have to go through to be saved?

Before I advance, please confirm or deny on whether you believe those specified scriptures speak of individual water baptism.

[KWSS1976]

I just want you to answer my question about 2 baptisms to be saved and after you do I will give you my answer as if I agree with it being about water baptism or holy ghost baptism.

[1Corinth2v4]

I just want you to answer my question about 2 baptisms to be saved and after you do I will give you my answer as if I agree with it being about water baptism or holy ghost baptism.


I've answered various questions of yours. You will need to answer my question in order to receive an answer from me. Thanks.

[KWSS1976]

I know the scripture is talking about water baptism now answer my question is there two baptisms in order to be saved...

[KWSS1976]

You studing the word 1corith? Taking you a while to repond...

[1Corinth2v4]

You studing the word 1corith? Taking you a while to repond...

First off, I don't live in front of a computer. If I don't answer, don't get impatient. I have other matters in life that are priority in oppose to this forum.

I'll return in a couple minutes.

[KWSS1976]

Thats cool 1 corith I got nothing but time on my hands take as long as ya like.

[Arphaxad]

Ok so there is 2 baptisms you have to go through to be saved?

it appears so-water baptism in Jesus name by a person for remission of sin(Acts 2:38)

Holy Spirit baptism by Jesus (Mathew 3:11) for infilling of Holy Spirit(Acts 2:38)


:doggyrun

[KWSS1976]

Ok so which one for salvation?

[Sam]

In Hebrews 6:1-2 there is a list of the principles of the doctrine/teaching of Christ. These are:
repentance from dead works
faith toward God
baptisms (plural)
laying on of hands
resurrection of the dead
eternal judgment

Since the word baptisms is plural, it seems to me there are more than one baptism. In my opinion, there is a baptism in water and there is a baptism in the Holy Spirit. These are two separate experiences. An individual may only experience one of them or he/she may experience both of them. These separate experiences can take place miles apart geographically or years apart time wise.

There is also an experience spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13 where it speaks of another baptism. In this passage it speaks of being baptized BY the Spirit into the Body of Christ. In my opinion this is separate from a baptism IN water and a baptism IN the Spirit.

[Arphaxad]

Ok so which one for salvation?

both

:doggyrun

[KWSS1976]

According to 1corith you only need one baptism per his/her post previously...here is the post...
The Fact Remains




According to Romans 6:3-11, WHEN WE ARE WATER BAPTIZED, we are:
baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
buried with Him -Romans 6:4
raised with Him -Romans 6:4
united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
no longer slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
free from sin -Romans 6:7
we will live with Him -Romans 6:8
dead to sin -Romans 6:11
alive to God -Romans 6:11


This would conclude that when we are NOT WATER BAPTIZED, we are:
NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11
__________________
Sincerely,

So how many baptisms are required...

[1Corinth2v4]

KWSS1976,


It's for this reason I tend to shun contentious people of your nature, within the cyber and physical world. I never stated the necessity of only ONE baptismal to obtain salvation. Your deceiving and attempt adding words to my post, as you add additional methods of salvation to the bible.



According to 1corith you only need one baptism per his/her post previously...here is the post...
The Fact Remains




According to Romans 6:3-11, WHEN WE ARE WATER BAPTIZED, we are:
baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
buried with Him -Romans 6:4
raised with Him -Romans 6:4
united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
no longer slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
free from sin -Romans 6:7
we will live with Him -Romans 6:8
dead to sin -Romans 6:11
alive to God -Romans 6:11


This would conclude that when we are NOT WATER BAPTIZED, we are:
NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11
__________________
Sincerely,

So how many baptisms are required...

[Sam]

If the baptism of Romans chapter 6 is water baptism,
and if all that good stuff listed there happens when baptized in water,
why would anyone need a second baptism like baptism in the Spirit?

How many baptisms are there available to us?
baptism into the Body
baptism in water
baptism in Spirit
baptism in fire
baptism in suffering
any more?

[KWSS1976]

Ok whatever 1corith you wrote it I just copied it

[1Corinth2v4]

If the baptism of Romans chapter 6 is water baptism,
and if all that good stuff listed there happens when baptized in water,
why would anyone need a second baptism like baptism in the Spirit?

How many baptisms are there available to us?
baptism into the Body
baptism in water
baptism in Spirit
baptism in fire
baptism in suffering
any more?

Is that a serious question?

[1Corinth2v4]

Ok whatever 1corith you wrote it I just copied it

You copied my post and wrote a bogus commentary!

[RandyWayne]

If the baptism of Romans chapter 6 is water baptism,
and if all that good stuff listed there happens when baptized in water,
why would anyone need a second baptism like baptism in the Spirit?

How many baptisms are there available to us?
baptism into the Body
baptism in water
baptism in Spirit
baptism in fire
baptism in suffering
any more?

This IS a good question. It reminds me of the time I received the holy ghost at age 12 and the incredible near instant change in my life that occurred, especially the next day. A week later I was baptized but did not experience an even remotely similar event.
Should I have?

[KWSS1976]

Apparantly the scripture you quoted 1corith is the only baptism we need now if you believe there is more baptisms needed you should not have posted that.

JESUS DIED ONLY ONCE
AND RAISED FROM THE DEAD ONLY ONCE

IT IS NOT REPENT BE BAPTISED,BAPTISED,BAPTISED
I have no problem with the scripture you quoted in romans 1corith
but using the apostolic doctrine and the baptism of the holyghost and water baptsm that is 2 baptisms. Jesus only had one baptism.... I do not know how you believe 1corith just try ing to prove a point I will tell you straight up how I believe you repent and get water baptised you are saved thats how I believe and thats probley still to many steps cause jesus did the work for us so we would have everlasting life not we do the work for him...

[Sam]

Is that a serious question?

yes