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Jermyn Davidson
04-27-2009, 08:28 AM
In reference to this thread here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=23060&page=4


I submit the scripture Micah 5:2-- a scripture that points to the the pre-existence of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.


BTW,
Of COURSE I am still Oneness! I'm just a few days late on responding to this challenge.




Micah 5:2 (New International Version)

2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans [a] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins [b] are from of old,
from ancient times. [c] "

Sam
04-27-2009, 12:22 PM
The Micah passage is considered to apply to Jesus, the Messiah and Son of God. But was He the Son of God before His incarnation? or was He the Word/Logos/Memra/Angel of the Lord?

edjen01
04-27-2009, 12:29 PM
In reference to this thread here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=23060&page=4


I submit the scripture Micah 5:2-- a scripture that points to the the pre-existence of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.


BTW,
Of COURSE I am still Oneness! I'm just a few days late on responding to this challenge.




Micah 5:2 (New International Version)

2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans [a] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins [b] are from of old,
from ancient times. [c] "

does this mean that since our "origins" go back to Adam....that we pre-exsisted also?

ManOfWord
04-27-2009, 01:12 PM
does this mean that since our "origins" go back to Adam....that we pre-exsisted also?

Absolutely!! The same way Jesus did and that was in the plan of God. God calls those things that are not as though they were. That is called prophetic proleptic. :D

Jermyn Davidson
04-29-2009, 08:13 AM
The Micah passage is considered to apply to Jesus, the Messiah and Son of God. But was He the Son of God before His incarnation? or was He the Word/Logos/Memra/Angel of the Lord?

I am not sure.

I only determined to prove the pre-existence of Jesus Christ in form of more than a "thought" of God.

This scripture gives me the impression that Jesus Christ existed before Bethlehem, in form of more than a thought.

Jermyn Davidson
04-29-2009, 08:14 AM
does this mean that since our "origins" go back to Adam....that we pre-exsisted also?

I think you are twisting the meanings of orgins.

edjen01
04-29-2009, 09:04 AM
I think you are twisting the meanings of orgins.

ok....please share your definition.

Webster..."coming into existence or use, beginning, birth, root, cause, lineage, that in which something has its beginning, source"....and more words like this.

Jermyn Davidson
04-29-2009, 09:39 AM
ok....please share your definition.

Webster..."coming into existence or use, beginning, birth, root, cause, lineage, that in which something has its beginning, source"....and more words like this.


The wording of this scripture implies a certain "everlastingness"-- a stretching into eternity.

"His origins are from of old, ancient times..."

Are "origins" are not of everlasting or eternal-- we have a definite beginning.
Jesus speaks of the "Glory He shared" with His Father, but doesn't speak of when, which means it's not too important when as much as the simple fact that He did.

The description "Ancient of Days" come to mind....

edjen01
04-29-2009, 09:45 AM
The wording of this scripture implies a certain "everlastingness"-- a stretching into eternity.

"His origins are from of old, ancient times..."

Are "origins" are not of everlasting or eternal-- we have a definite beginning.
Jesus speaks of the "Glory He shared" with His Father, but doesn't speak of when, which means it's not too important when as much as the simple fact that He did.

The description "Ancient of Days" come to mind....

the word eternal means...without beginning or ending...so how can something be eternal and everlasting and yet have a literal origin? both cannot be true.

edjen01
04-29-2009, 09:47 AM
I am not sure.

I only determined to prove the pre-existence of Jesus Christ in form of more than a "thought" of God.

This scripture gives me the impression that Jesus Christ existed before Bethlehem, in form of more than a thought.

how so? and what form?

TJJJ
04-29-2009, 09:48 AM
I am not sure.

I only determined to prove the pre-existence of Jesus Christ in form of more than a "thought" of God.

This scripture gives me the impression that Jesus Christ existed before Bethlehem, in form of more than a thought.

Jermyn, be careful.

You are entering into this study with a predetermined mindset. Your wording of this post is that you have already came to a conclusion, you are just looking for supporting verses.

TJJJ

Jermyn Davidson
04-29-2009, 09:57 AM
the word eternal means...without beginning or ending...so how can something be eternal and everlasting and yet have a literal origin? both cannot be true.

It can be with GOD-- all things are possible.

"Before Abraham was, I AM."

There are countless other scriptures I can quote where Jesus declares His Divinity.

But since when is DIVINITY "born"-- if it is born, can it die?

Jesus' origins ARE from of old, HE IS the Ancient of Days. He is the First and the Last Son of the Living God.


"Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given"
When Jesus was born, the Father "gave" His Son to us. But the One whose "origins are of old" was/is the Son of God before the child was born.

edjen01
04-29-2009, 10:07 AM
It can be with GOD-- all things are possible.

"Before Abraham was, I AM."

There are countless other scriptures I can quote where Jesus declares His Divinity.

But since when is DIVINITY "born"-- if it is born, can it die?

Jesus' origins ARE from of old, HE IS the Ancient of Days. He is the First and the Last Son of the Living God.


"Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given"
When Jesus was born, the Father "gave" His Son to us. But the One whose "origins are of old" was/is the Son of God before the child was born.

right...but thats like asking if God can make a rock to big for him to pick up!!


i have no issue believing that Jesus was/is God.

I'm trying to understand what form you are talking about. the human form of the man Jesus called the Christ was born in Bethlehem...and was not eternal...hence John 3:16...the begotten Son...to be begotten you need to have a beginning...and to have a beginning means that one cannot be eternal.

Jermyn Davidson
04-29-2009, 10:09 AM
Jermyn, be careful.

You are entering into this study with a predetermined mindset. Your wording of this post is that you have already came to a conclusion, you are just looking for supporting verses.

TJJJ



Thank you. But that was the challenge from the beginning.

It was my gut feeling that Jesus, The Son of the Living God pre-existed before Bethlehem and TRFrance originally gave me the task to support my stance with scripture.

TJJJ
04-29-2009, 10:13 AM
Thank you. But that was the challenge from the beginning.

It was my gut feeling that Jesus, The Son of the Living God pre-existed before Bethlehem and TRFrance originally gave me the task to support my stance with scripture.

Okay,

Explain this then.

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

What we must explain is, what does THE SON mean?

Luke wrote that the SON was the thing to be born. You are saying that the SON pre-existed the incarnation.

Do you believe that the SON is referencing the flesh?

Jermyn Davidson
04-30-2009, 11:46 AM
right...but thats like asking if God can make a rock to big for him to pick up!!


i have no issue believing that Jesus was/is God.

I'm trying to understand what form you are talking about. the human form of the man Jesus called the Christ was born in Bethlehem...and was not eternal...hence John 3:16...the begotten Son...to be begotten you need to have a beginning...and to have a beginning means that one cannot be eternal.

Okay,

Explain this then.

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

What we must explain is, what does THE SON mean?

Luke wrote that the SON was the thing to be born. You are saying that the SON pre-existed the incarnation.

Do you believe that the SON is referencing the flesh?



I am saying that the SON pre-existed the incarnation-- I think Micah 5:2 refers to this.

I freely admit I can be wrong and will reverse myself if necessary.
I don't think that is necessary at this point.

If Jesus did not pre-exist, what glory did He share with the Father and HOW did He share it? St. John 17:5


I think a lot of folks refuse to take my position because it lends itself to the trinitarian view of God a bit more easily-- a view I do not hold.

I simply choose to believe all the scriptures in what they say about our GOD and Savior-- Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

edjen01
04-30-2009, 12:18 PM
I am saying that the SON pre-existed the incarnation-- I think Micah 5:2 refers to this.

I frely admit I can be wrong and will reverse myself if necessary.
I don't think that is necessary at this point.

If Jesus did not pre-exist, what glory did He share with the Father and HOW did He share it? St. John 17:5
the same way the Word exsisted with God, was God, and then became flesh.(John 1). The Word did not become the man Jesus called the Christ until he was born to Mary. So as the Word...the Son was with God before time began...but as the fleshly, human man Jesus...he could not.

I think a lot of folks refuse to take my position because it lends itself to the trinitarian view of God a bit more easily-- a view I do not hold.
I have no problem with the way trinitarians view God....they view Him as One. I usually disagree with them when it comes to thier definitions of the Son of God.

I simply choose to believe all the scriptures in what they say about our GOD and Savior-- Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

.

Jermyn Davidson
04-30-2009, 01:05 PM
.

So did the Word of God have a sense of self or awareness, in your view of the Son of God?

Jermyn Davidson
05-02-2009, 11:06 AM
So did the Word of God have a sense of self or awareness, in your view of the Son of God?


Does anyone think that the Word of God had a sense of self awareness before Bethlehem?

If so, how do you explain or describe it?

If not, why not, in light of St. John 17:5?




And TRFrance, where are you??? I miss you man!!

Sam
05-02-2009, 01:00 PM
So it's Politically Correct to say that Jesus existed separate from the Father as the Word prior to His birth at Bethlehem but wrong to say He existed separate from the Father as the Son prior to His birth at Bethlehem.

Falla39
05-02-2009, 01:17 PM
1 Kings 14:14-16 (Amplified Bible)
14 Moreover, the Lord will raise up for Himself a king over Israel who shall cut off the house of Jeroboam this day. From now on

15 The Lord will smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water; and He will root up Israel out of this good land which He gave to their fathers and will scatter them beyond the [Euphrates] River, because they have made their Asherim [idolatrous symbols of the goddess Asherah], provoking the Lord to anger.

16 He will give Israel up because of the sins of Jeroboam which he has sinned and made Israel to sin.


Micah 5:2-5 (Amplified Bible)
2 But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah; [yet] out of you shall One come forth for Me Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days (eternity).(A)

3 Therefore shall He give them up until the time that she who travails has brought forth; then what is left of His brethren shall return to the children of Israel.

4 And He shall stand and feed His flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord His God; and they shall dwell [secure], for then shall He be great [even] to the ends of the earth.(B)

5 And this [One] shall be our peace. When the Assyrian comes into our land and treads upon our soil and in our palaces, then will we raise against him seven shepherds and eight princes among men.(C)

Some interesting verses.

Jermyn Davidson
05-04-2009, 08:22 AM
So it's Politically Correct to say that Jesus existed separate from the Father as the Word prior to His birth at Bethlehem but wrong to say He existed separate from the Father as the Son prior to His birth at Bethlehem.


This is what I am getting from some folks.

It's hard to get straight answers around here sometimes.

Jermyn Davidson
05-04-2009, 08:23 AM
1 Kings 14:14-16 (Amplified Bible)
14 Moreover, the Lord will raise up for Himself a king over Israel who shall cut off the house of Jeroboam this day. From now on

15 The Lord will smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water; and He will root up Israel out of this good land which He gave to their fathers and will scatter them beyond the [Euphrates] River, because they have made their Asherim [idolatrous symbols of the goddess Asherah], provoking the Lord to anger.

16 He will give Israel up because of the sins of Jeroboam which he has sinned and made Israel to sin.


Micah 5:2-5 (Amplified Bible)
2 But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah; [yet] out of you shall One come forth for Me Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days (eternity).(A)

3 Therefore shall He give them up until the time that she who travails has brought forth; then what is left of His brethren shall return to the children of Israel.

4 And He shall stand and feed His flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord His God; and they shall dwell [secure], for then shall He be great [even] to the ends of the earth.(B)

5 And this [One] shall be our peace. When the Assyrian comes into our land and treads upon our soil and in our palaces, then will we raise against him seven shepherds and eight princes among men.(C)

Some interesting verses.

Interesting indeed, Sis Falla.

How do you think these verses correspond with this discussion?