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Esther
04-29-2009, 05:28 PM
If someone ask you to prove that the Bible is indeed the Word of God, how would you respond?

Give as many details as you can.

Thanks

Sam
04-29-2009, 05:36 PM
I would refer them to someone who is smarter than I like Josh McDowell or Max Lucado.

Dedicated Mind
04-29-2009, 05:41 PM
David Bernard has an excellent book, "The Infallible Word of God", that lays out many arguments.

Esther
04-29-2009, 05:56 PM
I'm sure they all have very good material.

But how would you prove it? Or can you? Using others materials is fine also. I don't have their material but have studies this years ago.

nahkoe
04-29-2009, 06:06 PM
I'm sure they all have very good material.

But how would you prove it? Or can you? Using others materials is fine also. I don't have their material but have studies this years ago.

You can't prove it. That's something you have to take by faith. Even if you prove it accurate, you're only proving man's words accurate. You're not proving that man wrote words that God inspired.

Dedicated Mind
04-29-2009, 07:01 PM
you can prove the bible is the word of God by an extensive study of prophecy or by experiencing the gift of the holy ghost. In other words if a person can be born again and receive the hg speaking in tongues then the bible is true, but in order for that to happen you must be a believer.

Sam
04-29-2009, 07:13 PM
Has anyone seen the movie about Billy Graham as a young man when he had a crisis of faith as to the inspiration of the Bible?

nahkoe
04-29-2009, 07:23 PM
you can prove the bible is the word of God by an extensive study of prophecy or by experiencing the gift of the holy ghost. In other words if a person can be born again and receive the hg speaking in tongues then the bible is true, but in order for that to happen you must be a believer.

Even extensive study of prophecy can only prove the accuracy of the Bible, not that the Bible is the word of God.

And, experiencing an experience spoken of in the Bible, again, only proves the accuracy, not that it's the word of God.

That it is the word of God is something a person must take by faith.

Sam
04-29-2009, 07:25 PM
Some would say that if prophecy proves the Bible to be the Word of God then the writings of Nostradamus are the Word of God.

nahkoe
04-29-2009, 07:30 PM
Some would say that if prophecy proves the Bible to be the Word of God then the writings of Nostradamus are the Word of God.

Exactly. The Bible isn't the only book containing accurate prophecy.

freeatlast
04-29-2009, 07:31 PM
You can only prove it to yourself.

You can try to prove it to someone else, but ultimatley it's their choice to exersize their faith and accept it has the inspired word of the only almighty God.

Scott Hutchinson
04-29-2009, 07:33 PM
The message of the bible is correct,but a person has to desire truth,for God reveal truth to them.

CAD/JPY
04-29-2009, 10:04 PM
I have always shown someone the scientific descriptions, and references to proven science, that is referred to in the Bible. Example is air having weight, the hydrologic cycle, dinosaurs, etc.

From there I refer to when the books were written, and compare that to when science even proposed it for the first time. Example: the Bible predates Airistotles thought of air having weight by about 300 years or more.

Then I refer to the type of material that knowledge was stored on. That the Bible would have been written on. Then you look at the effects of mold, decay, war, persecution, etc. without having the power of a printing press.

I sum it all up with the discovery of the dead sea scrolls, and how ACCURATE they coincided with the current Holy Bible of the 1960's. Even though they had been in a cave for centuries....

After that there is no doubt (in my mind anyhow), that the Holy Bible as we know it are ancient writings of biblical truth that have been protected by God Almighty!

shawndell
04-30-2009, 07:13 AM
I have always shown someone the scientific descriptions, and references to proven science, that is referred to in the Bible. Example is air having weight, the hydrologic cycle, dinosaurs, etc.

From there I refer to when the books were written, and compare that to when science even proposed it for the first time. Example: the Bible predates Airistotles thought of air having weight by about 300 years or more.

Then I refer to the type of material that knowledge was stored on. That the Bible would have been written on. Then you look at the effects of mold, decay, war, persecution, etc. without having the power of a printing press.

I sum it all up with the discovery of the dead sea scrolls, and how ACCURATE they coincided with the current Holy Bible of the 1960's. Even though they had been in a cave for centuries....

After that there is no doubt (in my mind anyhow), that the Holy Bible as we know it are ancient writings of biblical truth that have been protected by God Almighty!wouldnt you thiink that after all the things that scientists have found out,likehow our plannet spins perfectly on its axis and not moving to far or to close to the sun,and all the plannets are in perfect alignment and this has been going on for thousands upon thousands of years? What about the gig bang theory,how does one figure that life came from inatimate objects.You cant grow lungs from a rock and it will start to braeth,and then there is life forms that cannot be seen with the naked eye you have to look under a microscope to see them.When a human being is first concieved there are only two cells and then those cells devide thus the creation of the human body.How does those cell know what they are supposed to belong to?Some has to become the heart while others has to become the stomach,while others has to become the brain and so on.isnt the disease of cancer difined as a bunch of run away cells from other body parts and get mixed up with other body parts wich I call the devil desease because he likes to pervert any thing God created.If God did not control this plannet and everything on it there would be no order.What im getting at is science still turn thier backs on creation,so if someone doesnt want to believe in the word they have made thier choice at this time not to believe and there will be no proof other wise unless God opens thier eyes.:heart:heart:heart

Timmy
04-30-2009, 09:27 AM
If someone ask you to prove that the Bible is indeed the Word of God, how would you respond?

Give as many details as you can.

Thanks

Cuz it says so!

:toofunny

Timmy
04-30-2009, 10:33 AM
The message of the bible is correct,but a person has to desire truth,for God reveal truth to them.

Then everyone who doesn't believe the Bible is God's word doesn't have a desire for truth. OK, got it. :thumbsup

Michlow
04-30-2009, 10:40 AM
Then everyone who doesn't believe the Bible is God's word doesn't have a desire for truth. OK, got it. :thumbsup

When someone believes that the Bible contains the Truth-with-a-capital-T, the logical conclusion is that if one does not believe so they are either deceived, or spiritually apathetic.

I personally believe that one can take the Bible seriously, even if they don't take it literally.

I believe that the Bible has importance, and has value, even though I may not believe it to be the absolute authoritative WORD OF GOD.

Esther
04-30-2009, 10:43 AM
There is merit in saying that you have to take the Bible by Faith that it is indeed God's Word. However, I believe there are things as one listed to "prove" this is indeed God's Word.

I think one of the most interesting points to me is that 69 (I believe that is right) different writers write with the same theme and no contractions. You can't find two doctors to write on a medical subject without having difference of opinions.

But again, what would you tell someone to try and convince them that the Bible is indeed the Word of God?

Timmy
04-30-2009, 11:22 AM
On another board (now defunct), I participated in a discussion of this topic. I said that if the Bible is God's word, it would actually be true. One example:

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Is that true? Does God keep this promise? The response was, essentially, that it would be absurd to think God should be my magic genie, doing whatever I want Him to.

I agreed. It certainly is absurd to think that Jesus would do anything I (or anyone else) ask Him to do. Yes, John 14:14 and all the similar promises are absurd.

But no, we can't let that deter our faith! We must have faith that it's God's Word! So it is true! God will do whatever we ask in the name of Jesus .... we just have to add all the right caveats and qualifiers to make it true! They're not there in John 14, but we have no choice. We have to add things like "as long as it lines up with His will" (in other words, it happens to be something God wants to do anyway), or "if we have enough faith" (so if it doesn't happen, guess whose fault it was).

Maybe it's just a matter of absurdity tolerance. Some people can see an absurdity and it doesn't bother them. Actually, they may see it as an opportunity to exercise their faith. The more absurd it is, the more faith is needed to believe it! The more faith, the more you please God! So bring on the absurdities! :lol

Esther
04-30-2009, 02:17 PM
When someone believes that the Bible contains the Truth-with-a-capital-T, the logical conclusion is that if one does not believe so they are either deceived, or spiritually apathetic.

I personally believe that one can take the Bible seriously, even if they don't take it literally.

I believe that the Bible has importance, and has value, even though I may not believe it to be the absolute authoritative WORD OF GOD.

Why not?

Esther
04-30-2009, 02:20 PM
On another board (now defunct), I participated in a discussion of this topic. I said that if the Bible is God's word, it would actually be true. One example:

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Is that true? Does God keep this promise? The response was, essentially, that it would be absurd to think God should be my magic genie, doing whatever I want Him to.

I agreed. It certainly is absurd to think that Jesus would do anything I (or anyone else) ask Him to do. Yes, John 14:14 and all the similar promises are absurd.

But no, we can't let that deter our faith! We must have faith that it's God's Word! So it is true! God will do whatever we ask in the name of Jesus .... we just have to add all the right caveats and qualifiers to make it true! They're not there in John 14, but we have no choice. We have to add things like "as long as it lines up with His will" (in other words, it happens to be something God wants to do anyway), or "if we have enough faith" (so if it doesn't happen, guess whose fault it was).

Maybe it's just a matter of absurdity tolerance. Some people can see an absurdity and it doesn't bother them. Actually, they may see it as an opportunity to exercise their faith. The more absurd it is, the more faith is needed to believe it! The more faith, the more you please God! So bring on the absurdities! :lol


I think you need to take the Bible as a whole and not piece meal it. For example; using your example of John 14, you should also know about the scriptures that talk about asking amiss, and as you referred to having faith that He will answer.

Timmy
04-30-2009, 02:22 PM
I think you need to take the Bible as a whole and not piece meal it. For example; using your example of John 14, you should also know about the scriptures that talk about asking amiss, and as you referred to having faith that He will answer.

So, other writers have corrected what Jesus said?

Esther
04-30-2009, 02:30 PM
So, other writers have corrected what Jesus said?

No. Look as an example at the four gospels. They all tell some of the same stories, yet some give more details than others. And although they may have all been at a reported incident not all reported on all the same incidents.

Timmy
04-30-2009, 02:51 PM
No. Look as an example at the four gospels. They all tell some of the same stories, yet some give more details than others. And although they may have all been at a reported incident not all reported on all the same incidents.

And I have no problem with that. But that isn't what happened in this example. We have a direct quotation of Jesus. James may have noticed that it doesn't work as Jesus said it would. He may be among the first to "add to the word of God" to try to make it "true". Oddly enough, in the very next chapter, James also makes a pretty bold promise, which also doesn't work.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

If the prayer doesn't work, well then, it was obviously not a prayer "of faith". Always plenty of blame to hand out. Even for the parents of a dead child, who claimed this and other healing scriptures, rather than take their child to a doctor. Tell them to their faces that they didn't have faith. Or tell them this isn't a promise that all sickness would be healed, even though it says any sick among you. Or tell them God has healed their child in Heaven. That always works. It also makes this "promise" utterly pointless.

TK Burk
04-30-2009, 03:35 PM
If someone ask you to prove that the Bible is indeed the Word of God, how would you respond?

Give as many details as you can.

Thanks

I just had this question asked me about a month ago. Because of a question asked me in another thread, this is what I said about my answer:

I just had a college graduate who majored in philosophy talk with me. He is going to all kinds of churches, religious groups, and synagogues looking for answers. He wanted to know how I can prove the legitimacy of the Bible being “God’s Word.” I told him that the evidence of the “virgin birth” cannot do it. Neither can the “30 pieces of silver” Judas received when betraying the Lord. These, as well as many other “prophetic evidences” are all subject to whether a person believes the Bible for what it says. Then I asked him: what if I can show you passages written hundreds of years BEFORE Jesus was born, and Him teaching those while prophesying detailed occurrences that He said would come within His generation, and then showing you that they did happen exactly 40 years (a biblical generation) after Jesus foretold them, and then being able to substantiate those with non-Christian witnesses, would THAT prove to you that maybe something was supernatural behind such writings? He excitedly said, “YES”! That talk lasted about ½ hour. He told me he had never had anyone approach his question in such a way. I did not know he was going to do this, but he came to Church that Sunday. That day I taught on why Jesus said, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” from the cross. I showed that Jesus’ words was a prophetic utterance from Psalms 22, and that He used those words to confirm “fulfilled prophecies” to those at His cross. This man then came to my home on Monday for a 3½ hour study. He now wants to come every week for more. Does Fulfilled Eschatology give a person hope? You better believe it does!!!

If you’re still in doubt, just ask Bro. Benincasa about the numerous marathon studies he’s had with every religious and non-religious person imaginable. Ask him how Fulfilled Eschatology shuts the mouths of the critics and the doubters and how it also converts the sincere to believe Jesus is exactly who the Bible prophecies Him to be. Jason, he uses this message to teach about Jesus to both Muslims and Jewish Rabbis at the same time. Can you do that with Dispensationalism?


This same young man is still in Bible study with me every week. Last week he told me that because of what I've shown him he now believes the New Testament is trustworthy. God's Word does prove itself to be the Truth when it is taught as written!

Blessings,
TKB

Timmy
04-30-2009, 03:39 PM
:popcorn2

Pragmatist
04-30-2009, 09:45 PM
If someone ask you to prove that the Bible is indeed the Word of God, how would you respond?

Give as many details as you can.

Thanks

I would say I can't prove it. If they're really interested and not just being argumentative, I would recommend Josh McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

Esther
05-01-2009, 07:38 AM
And I have no problem with that. But that isn't what happened in this example. We have a direct quotation of Jesus. James may have noticed that it doesn't work as Jesus said it would. He may be among the first to "add to the word of God" to try to make it "true". Oddly enough, in the very next chapter, James also makes a pretty bold promise, which also doesn't work.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

If the prayer doesn't work, well then, it was obviously not a prayer "of faith". Always plenty of blame to hand out. Even for the parents of a dead child, who claimed this and other healing scriptures, rather than take their child to a doctor. Tell them to their faces that they didn't have faith. Or tell them this isn't a promise that all sickness would be healed, even though it says any sick among you. Or tell them God has healed their child in Heaven. That always works. It also makes this "promise" utterly pointless.

Timmy I believe MOST not all of our praying for the sick is NOT done in faith. I think for too many it has become a habit of laying on hands and praying more like a ritual than truly having faith that God is going to heal.

It is the Lord's will to heal 95% or better of those who need healing, it is a very few that it is not His will to heal.

I think this generation refuses to accept blame for their short comings and looks for a scapegoat to blame it on. It is easier to blame God's Word as not being true than to accept they didn't have faith that God would heal them. God's Word is true, I doubt it not. But I also know I am not wise enough to have a full understanding of all of His Word. I wish I did, but at this point I don't. Nor do I know anyone that does. There are many that have a good grasp of the Word.

But I do believe that if we have a LOVE for the TRUTH, He will show us as we mature and as we put the effort into studying His Word.

Esther
05-01-2009, 07:39 AM
I just had this question asked me about a month ago. Because of a question asked me in another thread, this is what I said about my answer:




This same young man is still in Bible study with me every week. Last week he told me that because of what I've shown him he now believes the New Testament is trustworthy. God's Word does prove itself to be the Truth when it is taught as written!

Blessings,
TKB

I think as we see the Muslim community growing even faster than we imagined we will see this question even more.

TK Burk
05-01-2009, 08:42 AM
I think as we see the Muslim community growing even faster than we imagined we will see this question even more.

The same answer I gave concerning Fulfilled Eschatology answers the Muslim questions and concerns as well. Truth always corrects error....

Timmy
05-01-2009, 09:19 AM
Timmy I believe MOST not all of our praying for the sick is NOT done in faith. I think for too many it has become a habit of laying on hands and praying more like a ritual than truly having faith that God is going to heal.

It is the Lord's will to heal 95% or better of those who need healing, it is a very few that it is not His will to heal.

I think this generation refuses to accept blame for their short comings and looks for a scapegoat to blame it on. It is easier to blame God's Word as not being true than to accept they didn't have faith that God would heal them. God's Word is true, I doubt it not. But I also know I am not wise enough to have a full understanding of all of His Word. I wish I did, but at this point I don't. Nor do I know anyone that does. There are many that have a good grasp of the Word.

But I do believe that if we have a LOVE for the TRUTH, He will show us as we mature and as we put the effort into studying His Word.

If God wants 5% of the sick not to be healed, then He probably shouldn't have inspired James to say that they will all be healed. And again, maybe you can look those parents in the eye, who obviously did have tremendous faith, and tell them "God wanted your daughter to die".

Does anyone on this board have faith? Then maybe some prayers of faith can clear out 95% of the children's ward at some hospitals. And let's see 95% of the amputees in your towns can grow new legs and arms.

And talk about excuses and scapegoats! Goodness! When the Bible says something that isn't true, I don't have to look for excuses, anymore. I don't say "I wish I had a full understanding". I will never have to counsel a grieving mother and say something as "comforting" as "God's ways are higher than our ways" or "sorry, she was in the 5%" or "if you had prayed with faith, she would have had a 95% chance of recovering."

Back to your first comment:

Timmy I believe MOST not all of our praying for the sick is NOT done in faith.

That's true. And I think you know why: it's because deep inside, most know that it won't work, but they pray anyway. They are obligated to pray, and to speak as if they have faith, and to act as if they have faith, and the act as if they expect a miracle. It's expected. It's the way things are done. And when someone recovers, they are obligated to say it was God, even when they know deep inside that they probably would have recovered anyway (sometimes with help of medicine).

You say we don't understand God's word fully. But yes, we do understand some of it! Some of it is written very plainly. When we discover that that something isn't true, why would we have a duty to say this is one of those scriptures we can't understand? Or to add to it, to make it true?

mfblume
05-01-2009, 10:13 AM
I always tell people this:

Jesus gave us the fairest method in which to know whether or not the Bible is true. Knowing that the Bible contains His teachings, I refer people to this scripture:

John 7:16-17 KJV Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. (17) If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


This means if someone will TRY WHAT HE SAID, they will experience something that will prove to them the Word of God is true. If they never TRY IT themselves, they can never know.

CS Lewis said it is like looking into a dark, unlit shack that has a crack in the roof allowing a beam of light to enter it. You can stand outside and try to describe that beam of light and never get the actual understanding as obtained by someone who is inside the shack and beneath the light beam.

It is impossible to say the bible is incorrect when the person claiming that accusation has never even TRIED IT.

We can only PROVE it by TRYING IT.

Romans 12:2 KJV And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

KWSS1976
05-01-2009, 10:19 AM
mfblume thats what Timmy is saying people try it all the time (ie praying )and nothing happens,that love one dies after they have prayed with THE strongest faith for them to live or the sick one is not healed...

mfblume
05-01-2009, 10:51 AM
mfblume thats what Timmy is saying people try it all the time (ie praying )and nothing happens,that love one dies after they have prayed with THE strongest faith for them to live or the sick one is not healed...

What people fail to realize is that the Word contains qualifications for healing, for example.

Matthew 21:21 KJV Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.


A grain of doubt will hinder the healing.

God gave me a real revelation of this one day while needing a miracle. I was in my first pastorate, and since the church was so small in congregation I had to come and live on unemployment insurance and seek work. The town was a small mining town that mined asbestos, and was shutting down due to asbestos bans.

I could get no work.

Shortly after I arrived a relative of mine, Lloyd Bustard, who is also a minister called me and asked how things were going. I said I was in a small church and not much people, and had to live on unemployment insurance from my previous jobs. It would soon run out, but I knew I was in the will of God and was loving it!

Months passed. My unemployment insurance expired, and I got my last check on a Friday. The congregation was still unable to support me, and I thought about my bills, my little children and my wife, and food for our table. I took to prayer.

I knew God wanted me there, but also knew others came in the same manner on small incomes from outside, and left when it expired. I knew God could do anything. So I prayed for a miracle.

While praying, God spoke to me the words I quoted above. If I would DOUBT NOTHING, I would see my miracle that I was praying for. Anyone can pray, but who will successfully DOUBT NOTHING after they pray?

Mark 11:23 KJV For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.


We often ruin our prayers by DOUBTING just a little!

I had to doubt NOTHING.

So I fought unbelief and doubt that entire weekend. I was so stirred up by this, that I preached that Sunday night about FAITH FOR MIRACLES. I told them our situation, and church people looked at me knowing I could leave the church as other pastors did in the past. But I stood there and told them, "I do not know who God is going to do it, but I am declaring here tonight that I will soon be informing you from this very pulpit of how He did, because God showed me that if I doubt nothing, I will have my miracle. And I fight and defeated doubt all weekend since I prayed Friday."

You could have heard a pin drop, and would have seen eyes like saucers, wide open, in the congregation that night!

We had service and later that night I went to bed as usual.

The telephone rang at 4:40am that next morning. I answered it and it was my relative who called months before and asked how things were going.

After I said hello, the first thing he told me was to sit up and say, "Thank-you, Jesus."

I did, and asked what was going on.

Meanwhile he knew nothing about what transpired that weekend and on that very church night.

He told me he had preached that last night in in Bro Wilson's church in California on the other side of the country from where I was located in Newfoundland, Canada. 4.5 hour time difference! Hence, he called at midnight his time when it was 4:30am my time. He said he preached in the morning and during the afternoon before the evening service, God spoke to him to give $1.000.00 to Bro Wilson's radio ministry. He made up his mind to do it, and went into the evening service. During his sermon, he referred to me being in a small two in a small church in Newfoundland, Canada. He said he spoke to me several months earlier and asked how I was. He related how I told him I was on unemployment insurance and knew it would run out soon, but I was happy as a lark since I knew I was in the will of God.

Then he told me he said these words during his sermon, "Speaking of the will of God, Pastor Wilson, God spoke to me to give $1,000.00 dollars to your radio ministry, and I'm going to do it."

He said Acts chapter 4 happened all over again. People started volunteering offerings and expensive watches and even second vehicles they owned but did not really need, in comparison to what Bro Wilson could get out of them to fund his radio ministry.

Then he said, "Mike, someone stood up and said he had $100.00 for you, my nephew, in Newfoundland. Then a second man stood up and said he had $300.00 for you. Then a third man stood up and said he would match your unemployment check dollar-for-dollar every week!!!!"

By that time I was bawling like a baby and said, "Lloyd, you do not know what happened this weekend. I got my last unemployment check Friday, and God spoke to me saying that if I did not doubt anything, but would fight away all doubts, I could pray for a miracle and He would give it. I fought doubt all weekend and was so stirred up about it that I preached about it. I told the people that, although I did not know how God would do it at this moment, they would hear me tell them over this very pulpit how God provided me with money miraculously. I had that much faith!"

He told me he never heard of that before in his life, and said I should thank God for the next hour!

I received $8,000.00 from that brother in Bro Wilson's church over the months.

A few months later a pastor had me come and preach in Perth Andover, New Brunswick, ...Bro Harry Lewis... after having seen our struggle and getting behind in light bills. He asked the congregation to help us renovate an apartment in our little church basement area, to save rent costs. They took up $4,142.00 for me that night. Bro Lewis said they had missionaries who came and never got that much of an offering in one night!

I received a letter from Kenneth Mendenhall in the mail out of the blue $1,000.00 in it.

Altogether over $13,000.00 from a prayer one Friday night, when I did not doubt anything.

So, when I say we must TRY what the bible says, I mean all of what the bible says about something. Healing? Pray, but DOUBT NOTHING afterwards. God never said WHEN he would heal, but he did say HE WOULD.

I suspect many people doubt somewhat and ruin their prayers.

I know that I know what I know, from such many experiences in life, and this was but one. Everyone needs their own encounters like that and experience this for themselves. I know God's word is true! I tried it.

God bless!

Esther
05-01-2009, 12:05 PM
If God wants 5% of the sick not to be healed, then He probably shouldn't have inspired James to say that they will all be healed. And again, maybe you can look those parents in the eye, who obviously did have tremendous faith, and tell them "God wanted your daughter to die".

Does anyone on this board have faith? Then maybe some prayers of faith can clear out 95% of the children's ward at some hospitals. And let's see 95% of the amputees in your towns can grow new legs and arms.

And talk about excuses and scapegoats! Goodness! When the Bible says something that isn't true, I don't have to look for excuses, anymore. I don't say "I wish I had a full understanding". I will never have to counsel a grieving mother and say something as "comforting" as "God's ways are higher than our ways" or "sorry, she was in the 5%" or "if you had prayed with faith, she would have had a 95% chance of recovering."

Back to your first comment:



That's true. And I think you know why: it's because deep inside, most know that it won't work, but they pray anyway. They are obligated to pray, and to speak as if they have faith, and to act as if they have faith, and the act as if they expect a miracle. It's expected. It's the way things are done. And when someone recovers, they are obligated to say it was God, even when they know deep inside that they probably would have recovered anyway (sometimes with help of medicine).

You say we don't understand God's word fully. But yes, we do understand some of it! Some of it is written very plainly. When we discover that that something isn't true, why would we have a duty to say this is one of those scriptures we can't understand? Or to add to it, to make it true?

Timmy I think many people believe they have faith, but their faith is in faith and not in God.

It appears you have experience a disappointing situation that God did not move as you wanted. I think we have all experienced that at some point. We also have to understand everyone has to die as some point. Most of us would prefer it to be after a long fruitful life.

I will give you one example of what a friend said God told him when He took this man's wife. He asked my friend would it not be better for the Lord to have taken her now while she was saved vs letting her live but have something in her life happen that would cause her to loose her soul?

God does know what is best. It is not a cliche. It is truth. The Word of God is true. I believe it! I don't understand everything, but I believe it.

I can also tell you from experience sometimes it is about timing. God waits to heal for varies reasons, but does eventually heal. But not every case is the same.

I know of some that can't seem to live for God unless they are in prison. God's upmost desire if for each of us to be saved.

I agree with Bro. Blume, I believe many folks have some doubt and not all faith when praying for situations.

Timmy
05-01-2009, 03:12 PM
Then it was "best" for my brother to die. Thanks for doing what was "best", "God".

Esther
05-01-2009, 04:20 PM
Then it was "best" for my brother to die. Thanks for doing what was "best", "God".

Timmy I lost a brother also. And it hurt a lot, as we were only one year apart. Knowing what I know now, I do think God knew what was best. His wife was leading him down a path that would have destroyed him.

It doesn't make it any easier. But I know with all that is in me, God knows best. We don't always see it but we have to learn to trust Him that He can do no wrong.

Pastor DTSalaz
05-02-2009, 03:29 PM
This is getting off the subject at hand but anyways. God is sovereign, he rules over every affair of man. Yet he is a gentleman he gives the power of choice. Sin is and was a choice that brings/brought death spiritually and eventually physically. Only faith in God and his word brings life and peace. God wants to heal our position with him spiritually so that the physical death will have no power or effect. He also wants to heal our condition here on earth this however takes a process of refining in most cases but a miracle in others.

Act 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
Act 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who steadfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,

How many times did Jesus pass by the gate of the Temple while this lame man was sick and didn't heal him. It was saved for the confirmation of the apostles and the church for the glory of God. Not when we want it but when God does.

Act 3:2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

What about John the baptist or James who lost their heads for their faith. God did not heal them from those fates.

Act 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
Act 12:2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
Act 12:3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)

Mat 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
Mat 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Jesus instructed Johns disciples that they should tell John of all the works that were being done. Meanwhile John was in prison praying a prayer of faith. God is God regardless of our circumstances. We then find out John is killed. It didn't go as John thought but the plan of God was still going forward.

Mat 14:1 At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus,
Mat 14:2 And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do show forth themselves in him.
Mat 14:3 For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.
Mat 14:6 But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod.
Mat 14:7 Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask.
Mat 14:8 And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist's head in a charger.
Mat 14:9 And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her.
Mat 14:10 And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison.
Mat 14:11 And his head was brought in a charger, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother.

Lastly, When dealing with the sick the Word says that the prayer of faith shall save the sick. That is Gods ultimate goal. Faith in him will put you at peace that whether we live or die we are the Lords, this is our position with him. Then the Lord will raise them up, deal with their condition, for what good does it do if he heals us and we are still headed straight for hell. Sickness many times will lead to self examination and making sure we are in right standing with God, for it is not always his will to heal us physically. It is his will to heal us spiritually for if we have committed any sins they shall be forgiven us. Sickness is always a by product from the result of sin. We are all destined once to die then comes the judgment. It is the second death that we have to make sure has no power over us.

Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Be blessed
Pastor DT Salaz

Timmy
05-03-2009, 09:02 AM
This is getting off the subject at hand but anyways. . . .

I think whether the Bible is actually true is very relevant to the subject. If it's not true, it's not God's word. (IMO.) (And yes, I know, most everyone here believes it absolutely is true, and can always find a way to make everything it says true. ;))

But technically, you're right. The subject is proving that it is God's word. If it's not possible to do that (as some here, maybe most, would agree), I can think of two possible reasons for this:

1. God didn't want it to be possible to prove.

2. It isn't His word.

If you can think of another reason, let's hear it. Otherwise, I guess you guys would vote #1. ;)

Pastor DTSalaz
05-03-2009, 10:42 AM
Usually theology starts out with the premise of proving the existence of God. This is many times for the Atheist or the Agnostic for if there is no God then why would we believe in a Word of God. If we cannot prove one portion is the Wrod of God we then might as well discount the whole.

This is called systematic theology. Once the overwhelming evidence for God is Proven then we go to the infallibility of the Word of God.

When we turn to this method of proving the veracity of Gods word various forms are used to prove this.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

God is a reasonable God and we anso can use reason to verify our faith. Our faith is founded on substance and evidence.

Number one reason we believe it is is because it claims to be the Word of God.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Jesus expressed that the Word of God was scriptures and gave veracity that the Old Testament was the Word of God.

Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Many don't want to believe that it is no matter how much evidence is provided because then they will have to agree that there is a God and if he made the rules then he can bring judgment for disobedience.

More later

Pastor DT Salaz

nahkoe
05-03-2009, 10:54 AM
Usually theology starts out with the premise of proving the existence of God. This is many times for the Atheist or the Agnostic for if there is no God then why would we believe in a Word of God. If we cannot prove one portion is the Wrod of God we then might as well discount the whole.

This is called systematic theology. Once the overwhelming evidence for God is Proven then we go to the infallibility of the Word of God.

When we turn to this method of proving the veracity of Gods word various forms are used to prove this.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

God is a reasonable God and we anso can use reason to verify our faith. Our faith is founded on substance and evidence.

Number one reason we believe it is is because it claims to be the Word of God.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Jesus expressed that the Word of God was scriptures and gave veracity that the Old Testament was the Word of God.

Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Many don't want to believe that it is no matter how much evidence is provided because then they will have to agree that there is a God and if he made the rules then he can bring judgment for disobedience.

More later

Pastor DT Salaz

But this completely eliminates from your reasoning those who believe there is a God and don't believe the Bible is infallible.

Can you use the Bible to prove the Bible is infallible?

Timmy
05-03-2009, 12:16 PM
Usually theology starts out with the premise of proving the existence of God. This is many times for the Atheist or the Agnostic for if there is no God then why would we believe in a Word of God. If we cannot prove one portion is the Wrod of God we then might as well discount the whole.

This is called systematic theology. Once the overwhelming evidence for God is Proven then we go to the infallibility of the Word of God.

When we turn to this method of proving the veracity of Gods word various forms are used to prove this.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

God is a reasonable God and we anso can use reason to verify our faith. Our faith is founded on substance and evidence.

Number one reason we believe it is is because it claims to be the Word of God.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Jesus expressed that the Word of God was scriptures and gave veracity that the Old Testament was the Word of God.

Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Many don't want to believe that it is no matter how much evidence is provided because then they will have to agree that there is a God and if he made the rules then he can bring judgment for disobedience.

More later

Pastor DT Salaz

Doesn't apply to me. FYI. :thumbsup

Timmy
05-03-2009, 12:17 PM
But this completely eliminates from your reasoning those who believe there is a God and don't believe the Bible is infallible.

Can you use the Bible to prove the Bible is infallible?

Sure! It says so! You silly! :toofunny

mfblume
05-03-2009, 01:02 PM
I think whether the Bible is actually true is very relevant to the subject. If it's not true, it's not God's word. (IMO.) (And yes, I know, most everyone here believes it absolutely is true, and can always find a way to make everything it says true. ;))

But technically, you're right. The subject is proving that it is God's word. If it's not possible to do that (as some here, maybe most, would agree), I can think of two possible reasons for this:

1. God didn't want it to be possible to prove.

2. It isn't His word.

If you can think of another reason, let's hear it. Otherwise, I guess you guys would vote #1. ;)

I already quoted Jesus where He said anyone who wants to know it is true must try it just exactly the way it says to try it. Real, doubting of nothing. It's all there.

Anyone who doubts it as much as is related in some posts here will never be able to know, for Jesus said we must doubt nothing. Some people are so far away from being able to "doubt not" that God could do nothing for them. It can be a bad, bad habit to ever break.

Timmy
05-03-2009, 01:19 PM
I already quoted Jesus where He said anyone who wants to know it is true must try it just exactly the way it says to try it. Real, doubting of nothing. It's all there.

Anyone who doubts it as much as is related in some posts here will never be able to know, for Jesus said we must doubt nothing. Some people are so far away from being able to "doubt not" that God could do nothing for them. It can be a bad, bad habit to ever break.

Do you have faith? Without a tiny bit of doubt? Can you do "greater works than these"? Can you move mountains?

No. You probably cannot. You and every single human on the face of the earth have at least a tiny bit of doubt. Apparently. Otherwise, there'd be such miracles that nobody could deny them. Some news outlets might be so evil and satanic that they wouldn't show them, but not every outlet would do that. The word would get out that amputees are growing new arms and legs. Hospitals are being emptied. (Except for the few that God wants to be sick, I guess.) The dead are being raised!

Ah, but that's not how God works, sadly. No, He doesn't want the world at large to have undeniable proof that He is at work in the world, that His "word" is true. He would rather reward the very few that decide to believe it without proof. More satisfying that way.

Is that about right? Well, it says right there in the Bible, Jesus doesn't want to save some people. So, I guess I'm not too far off.

nahkoe
05-03-2009, 01:19 PM
Sure! It says so! You silly! :toofunny

It does? Surely you wouldn't make such a claim if you can't back it up. :lol

Chapter and verse please?

Timmy
05-03-2009, 01:22 PM
It does? Surely you wouldn't make such a claim if you can't back it up. :lol

Chapter and verse please?

Well, I was thinking of 2 Tim 3:16, but that doesn't quite cut it. Doesn't say it's perfect. Just inspired and profitable. So, hmmm. Maybe the Bible isn't perfect after all! :hmmm

mfblume
05-03-2009, 01:35 PM
Do you have faith? Without a tiny bit of doubt? Can you do "greater works than these"? Can you move mountains?

I already told you of a mountain I moved in my financial struggle. I tried what the bible said, and doubted nothing, and it worked!

No. You probably cannot. You and every single human on the face of the earth have at least a tiny bit of doubt.

No one gets prayers answered who doubts the least bit. Only when I doubted nothing I got prayers answered and wonders occurred.

See? Your very overall concept saying EVERYONE HAS DOUBT is totally defeating your ability to see the proof.

Apparently. Otherwise, there'd be such miracles that nobody could deny them.

I have seen miracles I could not deny and neither could the people who saw them with me.

It's every man for himself in the realm of faith. YOU have to believe FOR YOURSELF. We cannot look at anyone else's experiences and claim there is no faith. I accepted that and I believed God for myself, and I saw many miracles through the years.

Some news outlets might be so evil and satanic that they wouldn't show them, but not every outlet would do that. The word would get out that amputees are growing new arms and legs. Hospitals are being emptied. (Except for the few that God wants to be sick, I guess.) The dead are being raised!

Ah, but that's not how God works, sadly.

You are doing it again. Your concept is so full of doubt.

No, He doesn't want the world at large to have undeniable proof that He is at work in the world, that His "word" is true. He would rather reward the very few that decide to believe it without proof. More satisfying that way.

More doubt-filled concepts.

Is that about right? Well, it says right there in the Bible, Jesus doesn't want to save some people. So, I guess I'm not too far off.

No that is not right. :) I am no Calvinist who believes Jesus does not want to save some people.

Tim, our words are powerful in both directions. One can speak oneself into deep, deep unbelief, or speak oneself into faith. Watch what we say. Let us be careful. One can be so full of unbelief that everything one sees is filtered through it. I believe that is the idea Jesus tried to relate when he said the light of the body is the eye. The way we perceive things is what He meant. Our perception can be so diseased spiritually, like a physical eye that is diseased, or evil. And everything such a person sees will be distorted. And Jesus said that if the distortion we see is considered reality in our hearts, how dark is that darkness! If the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Fight the unbelief. We can do it!

nahkoe
05-03-2009, 01:39 PM
Well, I was thinking of 2 Tim 3:16, but that doesn't quite cut it. Doesn't say it's perfect. Just inspired and profitable. So, hmmm. Maybe the Bible isn't perfect after all! :hmmm

I make no arguments about the Scripture spoken of in this verse being inspired and profitable (that'd be the Old Testament...). But it never makes the claim that it's infallible. (unless someone can find a verse I haven't found)

Timmy
05-03-2009, 01:58 PM
I already told you of a mountain I moved in my financial struggle. I tried what the bible said, and doubted nothing, and it worked!



No one gets prayers answered who doubts the least bit. Only when I doubted nothing I got prayers answered and wonders occurred.

See? Your very overall concept saying EVERYONE HAS DOUBT is totally defeating your ability to see the proof.



I have seen miracles I could not deny and neither could the people who saw them with me.

It's every man for himself in the realm of faith. YOU have to believe FOR YOURSELF. We cannot look at anyone else's experiences and claim there is no faith. I accepted that and I believed God for myself, and I saw many miracles through the years.



You are doing it again. Your concept is so full of doubt.



More doubt-filled concepts.



No that is not right. :) I am no Calvinist who believes Jesus does not want to save some people.

Tim, our words are powerful in both directions. One can speak oneself into deep, deep unbelief, or speak oneself into faith. Watch what we say. Let us be careful. One can be so full of unbelief that everything one sees is filtered through it. I believe that is the idea Jesus tried to relate when he said the light of the body is the eye. The way we perceive things is what He meant. Our perception can be so diseased spiritually, like a physical eye that is diseased, or evil. And everything such a person sees will be distorted. And Jesus said that if the distortion we see is considered reality in our hearts, how dark is that darkness! If the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Fight the unbelief. We can do it!

So you can empty hospitals? Have you done that?

Timmy
05-03-2009, 01:59 PM
I make no arguments about the Scripture spoken of in this verse being inspired and profitable (that'd be the Old Testament...). But it never makes the claim that it's infallible. (unless someone can find a verse I haven't found)

So why do people think it's infallible, anyway? Never really thought of that before! Did someone just make it up? Does it seem like it should be infallible, so they say it is?

Come on, there must be a scripture for this, somewhere! Anyone?

Praxeas
05-03-2009, 02:08 PM
Anyone can believe in a god, but the difference is we are believing in the God of the Bible. If your God is not the God of the bible it's not the same God

Timmy
05-03-2009, 02:09 PM
. . .

No that is not right. :) I am no Calvinist who believes Jesus does not want to save some people.

. . .

Did you think I just made it up? ;)

Mark 4:11-12 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Timmy
05-03-2009, 02:21 PM
I already told you of a mountain I moved in my financial struggle. I tried what the bible said, and doubted nothing, and it worked!

. . .

That's a good point. It could very well be true that God sometimes works miracles for those select few who somehow muster up enough faith and dispel every trace of doubt. And you probably agree that it is very few that actually arrive at that lofty goal. You are very, very lucky!

And I bet you really, really love God, don't you? He does so much for you! But maybe God appreciates the love of others who aren't so lucky, even more: that vast majority who don't move mountains, but love Him anyway. They pray for healing, but, sadly, there was a microscopic spec of doubt. And God couldn't heal. But they keep on loving Him anyway! Yes, I can imagine that God really loves those faithful (so to speak!) folks.

Esther
05-03-2009, 03:36 PM
Usually theology starts out with the premise of proving the existence of God. This is many times for the Atheist or the Agnostic for if there is no God then why would we believe in a Word of God. If we cannot prove one portion is the Wrod of God we then might as well discount the whole.

This is called systematic theology. Once the overwhelming evidence for God is Proven then we go to the infallibility of the Word of God.

When we turn to this method of proving the veracity of Gods word various forms are used to prove this.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

God is a reasonable God and we anso can use reason to verify our faith. Our faith is founded on substance and evidence.

Number one reason we believe it is is because it claims to be the Word of God.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Jesus expressed that the Word of God was scriptures and gave veracity that the Old Testament was the Word of God.

Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Many don't want to believe that it is no matter how much evidence is provided because then they will have to agree that there is a God and if he made the rules then he can bring judgment for disobedience.

More later

Pastor DT Salaz

You bring some good points to the table.

Esther
05-03-2009, 03:45 PM
Do you have faith? Without a tiny bit of doubt? Can you do "greater works than these"? Can you move mountains?

No. You probably cannot. You and every single human on the face of the earth have at least a tiny bit of doubt. Apparently. Otherwise, there'd be such miracles that nobody could deny them. Some news outlets might be so evil and satanic that they wouldn't show them, but not every outlet would do that. The word would get out that amputees are growing new arms and legs. Hospitals are being emptied. (Except for the few that God wants to be sick, I guess.) The dead are being raised!

Ah, but that's not how God works, sadly. No, He doesn't want the world at large to have undeniable proof that He is at work in the world, that His "word" is true. He would rather reward the very few that decide to believe it without proof. More satisfying that way.

Is that about right? Well, it says right there in the Bible, Jesus doesn't want to save some people. So, I guess I'm not too far off.

Timmy why don't you get a book about John G Lake's life? During his ministry it is told that the hospitals did empty. When you see miracles happen as a regular thing, your faith builds and it is easy to believe that God is going to heal.

The problem today is to many have not seen miracles and they have little or no faith to see a miracle.

But as usual man wants to first blame God, never blame man, after all man is near perfect, right?

Timmy
05-03-2009, 07:13 PM
Timmy why don't you get a book about John G Lake's life? During his ministry it is told that the hospitals did empty. When you see miracles happen as a regular thing, your faith builds and it is easy to believe that God is going to heal.

The problem today is to many have not seen miracles and they have little or no faith to see a miracle.

But as usual man wants to first blame God, never blame man, after all man is near perfect, right?

I do not blame God for anything. I blame man, same as you.

Esther
05-04-2009, 07:45 AM
I do not blame God for anything. I blame man, same as you.

Ah, well I wasn't getting that from your post. Good to know.:thumbsup

mfblume
05-05-2009, 04:40 PM
No that is not right. I am no Calvinist who believes Jesus does not want to save some peopleDid you think I just made it up? ;)

Mark 4:11-12 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Let's read Matthew's version and get it more clearly.

Matthew 13:13-15 KJV Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


They have closed their own eyes.

When God blinds, God does not disallow anyone from getting saved UNLESS THEY HAD THE CHANCE AND HE BLINDS THEM TO NOT FURTHER GET A CHANCE.

Watch the context:

Romans 1:18-24 KJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


God only blinds or gives people up after they plainly see the reality of God and make a decision to not glorify Him as God. THAT is when all the blindness occurs.

mfblume
05-05-2009, 04:43 PM
That's a good point. It could very well be true that God sometimes works miracles for those select few who somehow muster up enough faith and dispel every trace of doubt. And you probably agree that it is very few that actually arrive at that lofty goal. You are very, very lucky!

It has nothing to do with luck. It has to do with people deciding to do so or not. Everyone can, but some folks get themselves too bogged into unbelief that make it less a possibility than with those who chose to not speak so much doubt.

And I bet you really, really love God, don't you? He does so much for you! But maybe God appreciates the love of others who aren't so lucky, even more: that vast majority who don't move mountains, but love Him anyway. They pray for healing, but, sadly, there was a microscopic spec of doubt. And God couldn't heal. But they keep on loving Him anyway! Yes, I can imagine that God really loves those faithful (so to speak!) folks.

I mean no demeaning or disrespect, but speak objectively here. Your words remain filled with unbelief. The more you speak like this, the deeper you will sink, T. It has nothing to do with luck. It has to do with whether or not we made decisions to doubt. The road of doubt simply brings more and more doubt the further we walk it.

When the day is done, the fact remains that each of us made our own beds. Belief in luck only excuses our parts in the picture.

Timmy
05-05-2009, 05:43 PM
It has nothing to do with luck. It has to do with people deciding to do so or not. Everyone can, but some folks get themselves too bogged into unbelief that make it less a possibility than with those who chose to not speak so much doubt.


Everyone can, eh? So, desperate parents pleading in tears for God to save their child, if the child dies, actually chose to disbelieve? They had the ability, but they did not exercise that ability. Amazing!


I mean no demeaning or disrespect, but speak objectively here. Your words remain filled with unbelief. The more you speak like this, the deeper you will sink, T. It has nothing to do with luck. It has to do with whether or not we made decisions to doubt. The road of doubt simply brings more and more doubt the further we walk it.

When the day is done, the fact remains that each of us made our own beds. Belief in luck only excuses our parts in the picture.

Can you admit that I could be right? I certainly do admit that you could be right, as I said before. It just seems extremely unlikely (to me).

There are people who believe in miracles. They have faith. Their faith sometimes seems to "work": they ask for something to happen, and it happens! Sometimes the thing is pretty mundane, like they find a parking place. Sometimes it's totally amazing! Some witnesses of the event would say it's an undeniable miracle. (Some witnesses change their memory of the event later, so it becomes ever more amazing as time goes on. But that's another topic!) I would claim that even the most faith-filled prayer warriors sometimes have misses. They would dismiss them in various ways: not His will, hidden sin, wrong motives, etc. Someone recently posted a list of things that hinder God's work. It seems that God has a check-list, and if anything goes wrong, He ain't gonna budge.

The "undeniable" miracles are so few and far between that the only purpose they serve is to make those who are already true believers, and who happen to see such an amazing miracle, a bit more solid in their belief. Or maybe a lot more. Fine. But doubters aren't convinced, usually. Cast aspersions, if you like: they have blinded themselves to the Truth, or they don't want to believe because they prefer their sinful lives. But you don't know their hearts. They have beliefs of their own, and for their own reasons. The reasons may or may not be as virtuous as your reasons for your beliefs. But they are what they are. Any description of them as evil or selfish or ungodly would be your personal opinion, and nothing more. They may be (as in my case) merely the result of observation for many years.

Here's one problem with miracles, if they are supposed to somehow validate "God's Word": they don't validate God's Word! People from many different religions, some that have nothing to do with the Bible or that have a very different view of the Bible than most Christians, have amazing stories. Are their religions validated by them?

Amazing things happen all the time. There is the "power of positive thinking". There is placebo effect. And believe it or not, there is coincidence!

One more point: look at the fruit! What is the result of belief in miracles? What good does it do? Yes, a miracle in and of itself is a nice thing, when it happens. But given that so few have enough faith to make them work, the result of "trying" to believe in them and failing is despair and disappointment, even depression. Sometimes death. They look at a list of prerequisites and wonder which one failed? Was it doubt? Sin? Or (worse) did God actually want my child to die?

Are the successes worth it? Well, I guess if you're right and I'm wrong, that's God's business. He must know what He's doing.

mfblume
05-06-2009, 11:10 AM
Timmy, you obviously have chosen the path you wish to walk, which is not that which I chose to walk. When the day is over, regardless of arguments, one of us will be proved to have been correct.

Regardless of one's heart, people choose what they will. I cast no aspersions against anyone. I speak generally in saying people can choose to rise higher in faith or sink lower in unbelief. Our own words and theme of our conversations determines that, which in turn were determined by our choice to dwell on them.

I proved the Word for my life. Many times over.

God bless!

Timmy
05-06-2009, 11:12 AM
Timmy, you obviously have chosen the path you wish to walk, which is not that which I chose to walk. When the day is over, regardless of arguments, one of us will be proved to have been correct.


Yep. Me! :ursofunny :ursofunny


God bless!

mfblume
05-06-2009, 11:17 AM
One more note. In my journey of faith, and coming to places in which I was able to believe and not doubt whatsoever, I realized that the sort of viewpoint your words always seemed to exude were extremely detrimental to my journey. Through EXPERIENCE, I learned your manner of thinking (that all of us experience, so it's not personal) had to be left as far away from my life as possible before I could believe the way I have and see miracles.

I am not perfect. I am not ALWAYS in such a state of total faith. But, when life gets to that point where I am driven to have to believe or simply get nailed by circumstances, I take time to pray, and most of my prayer is getting myself into a place of faith by quoting the promises of the Bible that state His word says if something is His will and we pray for it, he hears us.... or, I hear myself state that no man is any better than his word, and we are speaking about GOD'S Word promising me answers should I not doubt... and I defeat all the unbelief in my heart. And I have done this and saw many miracles.

Call them what you want, but I did this according to how God's Word told us to pray, and it worked. It really worked! :D

Timmy
05-06-2009, 12:00 PM
Yep. Me! :ursofunny :ursofunny

One more note. In my journey of faith, and coming to places in which I was able to believe and not doubt whatsoever, I realized that the sort of viewpoint your words always seemed to exude were extremely detrimental to my journey. Through EXPERIENCE, I learned your manner of thinking (that all of us experience, so it's not personal) had to be left as far away from my life as possible before I could believe the way I have and see miracles.

I am not perfect. I am not ALWAYS in such a state of total faith. But, when life gets to that point where I am driven to have to believe or simply get nailed by circumstances, I take time to pray, and most of my prayer is getting myself into a place of faith by quoting the promises of the Bible that state His word says if something is His will and we pray for it, he hears us.... or, I hear myself state that no man is any better than his word, and we are speaking about GOD'S Word promising me answers should I not doubt... and I defeat all the unbelief in my heart. And I have done this and saw many miracles.

Call them what you want, but I did this according to how God's Word told us to pray, and it worked. It really worked! :D

OK, then you! :toofunny

Timmy
05-06-2009, 12:01 PM
Goofy mood, today. Or did you notice? :lol

*AQuietPlace*
05-06-2009, 12:27 PM
A walk with God is based on relationship and trust. Faith. The opposite of doubt.

mfblume
05-06-2009, 01:05 PM
Goofy mood, today. Or did you notice? :lol

We all need such time-outs in our day. lol

:D