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shawndell
05-04-2009, 07:32 AM
I heard a story yesterday.This lady I know told me that she had a son in law that shot and killed himself a few years ago,she told me his story in tears.This boy was one of three children,his mom died on the couch when the kids were 4,3 and 2 years old and they were in the house for 4 days before the family found thier mother dead,and this boy was the 4 year old and he had been trying to take care of the other two children but how can a 4 year old do very well at that?Their father had already died a couple of years before.All three kids ended up in a orphanedge.When they were in the orphanedge they were abused by beatings,starving and molesting for all of thier child hood.When this boy was 9 years old his sister that was 8 was tied to a tree in front of him so that he could watch his sister be tortered in ways I wont mention because it was to awful.When he grew up he married my friends daughter,but the first time my friend met him he had walked 20 miles from his home in a thunder strom and she found him on her door step with blood all over his shirt,he was 18 years old and was living with his uncle who put small nicks in his chest with a knife,so my friend allowed him to stay with her.This young man never had a bad thing to say to any one and he never asked for anything from any one.EXAMPLE he was working and would not ask for a ride to work even though it was 12 miles to his job,and when she did take him he would waight 3 to 4 hours sometimes with out her rememering to pick him up,he would just thank her for the ride.She says she would buy hundreds of dollars on her kids for christmas and gaught him a 15 dollar electric razer and he was the only one to thank her and most people who looked into his eyes would call them sad or say he was born dead.The sparkle in his eyes was not there.When he and his wife would argue he could never say anything bad about her.His sister as of right now is in prison.Whenever his sister gets out of prison she does something to go back because she has been institutionalized for to long.That young man never heard about God and all his life from the beginning has been nothing but hell on earth.He never had a chance.Isnt there room in Gods heart for some one like him?:sad:sad:sadP.S. WHAT ABOUT HIS SISTER?????:sad:sad:sad:sad

Esther
05-04-2009, 07:44 AM
Shawndell I let God judge where folks will end up. Only He knows the heart.

shawndell
05-04-2009, 07:55 AM
Shawndell I let God judge where folks will end up. Only He knows the heart.Esther you are right its just that this story just killed my heart.I spent the whole day crying over it and wanted to pray but you cant pray for the dead.Now Im thinking about his sister and how to get in touch with her although I only know of her.:heart:heart:heart:heart

Esther
05-04-2009, 08:00 AM
Esther you are right its just that this story just killed my heart.I spent the whole day crying over it and wanted to pray but you cant pray for the dead.Now Im thinking about his sister and how to get in touch with her although I only know of her.:heart:heart:heart:heart

Based on what you have told me it will take the mighty hand of God for her to be emotionally healed.

It is extremely sad to me that mankind can step so low to treat another human this badly.

I fail in finding mercy for these people and lean towards an eye for an eye.

I hope they all find salvation.

crakjak
05-04-2009, 08:11 AM
I heard a story yesterday.This lady I know told me that she had a son in law that shot and killed himself a few years ago,she told me his story in tears.This boy was one of three children,his mom died on the couch when the kids were 4,3 and 2 years old and they were in the house for 4 days before the family found thier mother dead,and this boy was the 4 year old and he had been trying to take care of the other two children but how can a 4 year old do very well at that?Their father had already died a couple of years before.All three kids ended up in a orphanedge.When they were in the orphanedge they were abused by beatings,starving and molesting for all of thier child hood.When this boy was 9 years old his sister that was 8 was tied to a tree in front of him so that he could watch his sister be tortered in ways I wont mention because it was to awful.When he grew up he married my friends daughter,but the first time my friend met him he had walked 20 miles from his home in a thunder strom and she found him on her door step with blood all over his shirt,he was 18 years old and was living with his uncle who put small nicks in his chest with a knife,so my friend allowed him to stay with her.This young man never had a bad thing to say to any one and he never asked for anything from any one.EXAMPLE he was working and would not ask for a ride to work even though it was 12 miles to his job,and when she did take him he would waight 3 to 4 hours sometimes with out her rememering to pick him up,he would just thank her for the ride.She says she would buy hundreds of dollars on her kids for christmas and gaught him a 15 dollar electric razer and he was the only one to thank her and most people who looked into his eyes would call them sad or say he was born dead.The sparkle in his eyes was not there.When he and his wife would argue he could never say anything bad about her.His sister as of right now is in prison.Whenever his sister gets out of prison she does something to go back because she has been institutionalized for to long.That young man never heard about God and all his life from the beginning has been nothing but hell on earth.He never had a chance.Isnt there room in Gods heart for some one like him?:sad:sad:sadP.S. WHAT ABOUT HIS SISTER?????:sad:sad:sad:sad

Judgment is the setting of things right, God will redeem all of his creation. You need not worry of this young man, his heavenly Father loves him more perfectly than all your or my sympathy.

Are we so stupid to think that we could be more loving and kind and merciful than our heavenly Father? Most traditionalists believe that God's justice requires that this man and millions like him be tortured for eterinty. This is proof that the reformers mantained the worst of the apostate doctrines of the dark ages and the RCC.

Your response comes from the heart of God, but have no fear "...the judge of all will do right..."

shawndell
05-04-2009, 08:11 AM
Based on what you have told me it will take the mighty hand of God for her to be emotionally healed.

It is extremely sad to me that mankind can step so low to treat another human this badly.

I fail in finding mercy for these people and lean towards an eye for an eye.

I hope they all find salvation.
I do believe it will be worse for some in hell than others.:heart

Jermyn Davidson
05-04-2009, 08:32 AM
I do believe it will be worse for some in hell than others.:heart


So are you convinced that this guy, in his entire life on earth, never ONCE was invited to a church, some church that at the bare minimum taught that Jesus is Lord, never ONCE had a thought about letting Jesus into His life, never once heard the song, "Amazing Grace" and never ONCE thought about how that song could possibly minister to his broken life?


As sad as this story reads, if he lived in America, he had a chance for salvation.

God is just, whether this sould ends up in Heaven or hell. I just have a hard time believing that this guy NEVER had a chance.

Though his circumstances were beyond unfortunate, I am prone to believe that he had a chance, probably more than one-- but spurned the opportunities, choosing to carry his own burdens.


As for the sister and anyone else, as long as they are still living, there is still a chance for salvation.

crakjak
05-04-2009, 08:33 AM
I do believe it will be worse for some in hell than others.:heart

If hell were to be what tradition defines, your statement above is NO comfort at all. What 2000 degrees instead of 3000? One eternity rather than two??

shawndell
05-04-2009, 08:51 AM
Judgment is the setting of things right, God will redeem all of his creation. You need not worry of this young man, his heavenly Father loves him more perfectly than all your or my sympathy.

Are we so stupid to think that we could be more loving and kind and merciful than our heavenly Father? Most traditionalists believe that God's justice requires that this man and millions like him be tortured for eterinty. This is proof that the reformers mantained the worst of the apostate doctrines of the dark ages and the RCC.

Your response comes from the heart of God, but have no fear "...the judge of all will do right..."Thank you crakjak,your words have helped me because God does love us more than we can understand so I guess I dont have to worry about this poor guy.:heart:heart

crakjak
05-04-2009, 09:17 AM
Thank you crakjak,your words have helped me because God does love us more than we can understand so I guess I dont have to worry about this poor guy.:heart:heart

Absolutely, God has not relegated His creation to the evil one, He takes responsibily for what He created.

Shawn
05-04-2009, 09:27 AM
We were told to love our enemy's. I think the Lord has better things in mind than to torment 99.5% of creation for eternity.

RandyWayne
05-04-2009, 09:36 AM
Judgment is the setting of things right, God will redeem all of his creation. You need not worry of this young man, his heavenly Father loves him more perfectly than all your or my sympathy.

Are we so stupid to think that we could be more loving and kind and merciful than our heavenly Father? Most traditionalists believe that God's justice requires that this man and millions like him be tortured for eterinty. This is proof that the reformers mantained the worst of the apostate doctrines of the dark ages and the RCC.

Your response comes from the heart of God, but have no fear "...the judge of all will do right..."

Excellent words

LUKE2447
05-04-2009, 09:40 AM
RW so I guess you are into Universalism as well?

Absolutely amazing!

RandyWayne
05-04-2009, 09:59 AM
RW so I guess you are into Universalism as well?

Absolutely amazing!

Huh?

crakjak
05-04-2009, 09:59 AM
RW so I guess you are into Universalism as well?

Absolutely amazing!

Absolutely Amazing Grace and Amazing LOVE!!!

Lose your lens of the god of torture, torment and lack of ability to save his creation, and you will see that it pervasive thru out scripture.

He came to seek and to save the lost, not to torment and torture because of Satan's ability to deceive his own creation.

Oh, the all powerful "freewill" of men the greatest power in all the universe, second only to the power of Satan to destroy. Surely you can do better than that!

God is awesome to save, Jesus said it is finished, man says I must help God save His creation. The elect or saved in this life, all the rest will be saved, each in his own time.

God is Awesome, and every one of His creation is precious in His sight. What great and wonderful "Good News".

Esther
05-04-2009, 10:44 AM
Absolutely Amazing Grace and Amazing LOVE!!!

Lose your lens of the god of torture, torment and lack of ability to save his creation, and you will see that it pervasive thru out scripture.

He came to seek and to save the lost, not to torment and torture because of Satan's ability to deceive his own creation.

Oh, the all powerful "freewill" of men the greatest power in all the universe, second only to the power of Satan to destroy. Surely you can do better than that!

God is awesome to save, Jesus said it is finished, man says I must help God save His creation. The elect or saved in this life, all the rest will be saved, each in his own time.

God is Awesome, and every one of His creation is precious in His sight. What great and wonderful "Good News".

So you don't believe there is a hell?

Ron
05-04-2009, 12:04 PM
Judgment is the setting of things right, God will redeem all of his creation. You need not worry of this young man, his heavenly Father loves him more perfectly than all your or my sympathy.

Are we so stupid to think that we could be more loving and kind and merciful than our heavenly Father? Most traditionalists believe that God's justice requires that this man and millions like him be tortured for eterinty. This is proof that the reformers mantained the worst of the apostate doctrines of the dark ages and the RCC.

Your response comes from the heart of God, but have no fear "...the judge of all will do right..."

Are we more just or holy, or righteous?

I have a message called, "A Balanced God!"
Gods righteousness, holiness, & holiness balances out his mercy, grace, & love!
He by his very nature can not tolerate sin & must judge it.
He by his great grace & mercy has made a way of escape!:thumbsup

LUKE2447
05-04-2009, 12:11 PM
Absolutely Amazing Grace and Amazing LOVE!!!

Lose your lens of the god of torture, torment and lack of ability to save his creation, and you will see that it pervasive thru out scripture.

He came to seek and to save the lost, not to torment and torture because of Satan's ability to deceive his own creation.

Oh, the all powerful "freewill" of men the greatest power in all the universe, second only to the power of Satan to destroy. Surely you can do better than that!

God is awesome to save, Jesus said it is finished, man says I must help God save His creation. The elect or saved in this life, all the rest will be saved, each in his own time.

God is Awesome, and every one of His creation is precious in His sight. What great and wonderful "Good News".

Sorry Crak, but you can waste your theological points somewhere else. I debated with much in the past and you won't change my mind and it has nothing to do with losing lenses! I can tell you one thing it isn't because I did not objectively and openly think about it as possible. In the end it just simply lacks support. do I wish it was true. Sure I don't want anyone to go to hell or whatever. In the end I cannot justify it on the Word. Anything less than that to me is emotional pleading and I won't teach such to those I should come in contact with.

Dedicated Mind
05-04-2009, 01:06 PM
I agree with crakjak, all will be saved in due course.

HeavenlyOne
05-04-2009, 04:02 PM
As sad as this story reads, if he lived in America, he had a chance for salvation.

God is just, whether this sould ends up in Heaven or hell. I just have a hard time believing that this guy NEVER had a chance.

Though his circumstances were beyond unfortunate, I am prone to believe that he had a chance, probably more than one-- but spurned the opportunities, choosing to carry his own burdens.


As for the sister and anyone else, as long as they are still living, there is still a chance for salvation.

Jermyn, I understand why you make these statements, but they are no more true than claiming that there's no reason to NOT win the lottery since there's always a chance. However, if one doesn't buy a ticket, let alone even know there IS a lottery, how do they have a chance to win?

Believe it or not, people die every day having no idea that there is a true plan of salvation out there they might have had. Being in America makes it no different than being in Iraq.

If the Bible was so cut and dried, there would be no reason for a Judgment Day, IMO.

crakjak
05-04-2009, 08:02 PM
So you don't believe there is a hell?

I don't believe it in the traditional sense of endless conscious torment. After it has served its purpose of purging, correcting, and the setting of things right it will cease.

Thanks for asking.:thumbsup

crakjak
05-04-2009, 08:08 PM
Are we more just or holy, or righteous?

I have a message called, "A Balanced God!"
Gods righteousness, holiness, & holiness balances out his mercy, grace, & love!
He by his very nature can not tolerate sin & must judge it.
He by his great grace & mercy has made a way of escape!:thumbsup

Of course his purpose is to bring an end to sin, and His love required that He provide an antidote for the curse, which He did in Christ.

This line of thought brings to mind where Jesus said, "...if you fathers being evil (in comparison to Himself) know how to give good gifts to your children, how MUCH MORE will your Heavenly Father give..." If we love are moved with compassion for the unfortunate, how much more is He moved? And He has the power to do and to continue to do something about it. No where in Scripture does it say that physical death is the end of God's reaching for His creation.

crakjak
05-04-2009, 08:09 PM
I agree with crakjak, all will be saved in due course.

AMEN!

Shawn
05-04-2009, 08:30 PM
fwiw. I think they're will be so much in the next life that is beyond us at this time. So much beyond our understanding at the moment. but I'm believing All means All. And World means world. not .05%

There are certain things I still believe in as many on this board do and wouldn't begin to tell anyone any different. I think everyone should be baptized in Jesus name. And I definately believe in Oneness even though it's a bit much to wrap my mind around at times. But I'm not going to pretend to have everything 'figured out'. I'll leave it up to Jesus. Alone.

LUKE2447
05-04-2009, 09:16 PM
I agree with crakjak, all will be saved in due course.

and you are wrong just like him.

crakjak
05-04-2009, 10:26 PM
Sorry Crak, but you can waste your theological points somewhere else. I debated with much in the past and you won't change my mind and it has nothing to do with losing lenses! I can tell you one thing it isn't because I did not objectively and openly think about it as possible. In the end it just simply lacks support. do I wish it was true. Sure I don't want anyone to go to hell or whatever. In the end I cannot justify it on the Word. Anything less than that to me is emotional pleading and I won't teach such to those I should come in contact with.

If the Holy Spirit does not cause it to resonate in your spirit, I understand your position, been there. Blessings to you.

tbpew
05-05-2009, 09:14 AM
I don't believe it in the traditional sense of endless conscious torment. After it has served its purpose of purging, correcting, and the setting of things right it will cease.

Thanks for asking.:thumbsup

CJ,
(standard disclaimer....I have not read all the posts in this thread)

Have you considered and determined that annilation is not part of the potential outcomes extending from every individual's free-will choices made throughout this life?

I find no available means to reconcile your position (quoted above) with:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
and
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

In my understanding, I do not see renewal or restoration emerging from that which has been destroyed.

thoughts?

crakjak
05-05-2009, 09:43 AM
CJ,
(standard disclaimer....I have not read all the posts in this thread)

Have you considered and determined that annihilation is not part of the potential outcomes extending from every individual's free-will choices made throughout this life?

I find no available means to reconcile your position (quoted above) with:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
and
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

In my understanding, I do not see renewal or restoration emerging from that which has been destroyed.

thoughts?

TB,
This is a very good question, the short answer is: Even though God is more than able to destroy the souls of men, it is not His purpose to do so.

He is able to destroy the cosmos, but it would be contrary to His purpose. He is also able to restore, redeem and to bring all His creation into right relationship with Himself.

He is also able to do this without violating the will of the individual, because with full disclosure, what man woman or child will not bow and confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

To know Him is to love Him, and I believe every human being will have eventual full disclosure, which produces only one result, bowing and confessing.

Many believe God will then destroy these, I simply disagree, and believe He will cause the eternal destruction of their "old man".

My question is: which is more in line with His character, His love, His power and ability to do?

The main problem I have with annihilation is that it causes God's purpose to fail, He is NOT willing that any should perish, therefore if one soul ultimately is forever lost then the WILL of God is not accomplished.

Esther
05-05-2009, 12:29 PM
I don't believe it in the traditional sense of endless conscious torment. After it has served its purpose of purging, correcting, and the setting of things right it will cease.

Thanks for asking.:thumbsup

Thanks for responding, I guess my next question would be what does everlasting mean to you?

Dedicated Mind
05-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Thanks for responding, I guess my next question would be what does everlasting mean to you?

another definition of everlasting is "age-long". people in hell will suffer an age-long punishment. when the age-long punishment is over, people in hell will be redeemed. imo

Rhoni
05-05-2009, 02:24 PM
I heard a story yesterday.This lady I know told me that she had a son in law that shot and killed himself a few years ago,she told me his story in tears.This boy was one of three children,his mom died on the couch when the kids were 4,3 and 2 years old and they were in the house for 4 days before the family found thier mother dead,and this boy was the 4 year old and he had been trying to take care of the other two children but how can a 4 year old do very well at that?Their father had already died a couple of years before.All three kids ended up in a orphanedge.When they were in the orphanedge they were abused by beatings,starving and molesting for all of thier child hood.When this boy was 9 years old his sister that was 8 was tied to a tree in front of him so that he could watch his sister be tortered in ways I wont mention because it was to awful.When he grew up he married my friends daughter,but the first time my friend met him he had walked 20 miles from his home in a thunder strom and she found him on her door step with blood all over his shirt,he was 18 years old and was living with his uncle who put small nicks in his chest with a knife,so my friend allowed him to stay with her.This young man never had a bad thing to say to any one and he never asked for anything from any one.EXAMPLE he was working and would not ask for a ride to work even though it was 12 miles to his job,and when she did take him he would waight 3 to 4 hours sometimes with out her rememering to pick him up,he would just thank her for the ride.She says she would buy hundreds of dollars on her kids for christmas and gaught him a 15 dollar electric razer and he was the only one to thank her and most people who looked into his eyes would call them sad or say he was born dead.The sparkle in his eyes was not there.When he and his wife would argue he could never say anything bad about her.His sister as of right now is in prison.Whenever his sister gets out of prison she does something to go back because she has been institutionalized for to long.That young man never heard about God and all his life from the beginning has been nothing but hell on earth.He never had a chance.Isnt there room in Gods heart for some one like him?:sad:sad:sadP.S. WHAT ABOUT HIS SISTER?????:sad:sad:sad:sad

These are things that only God can sort through. I know many people who have sufferred abuse which has led to lifestyles that we would not consider appropriate...but it is my thinking/feeling that God will hold the abusers accountable.

This is so sad, but there are many of these same stories right here among those we know and love.

God is holy, just, and righteous. I trust Him to make things right in the end.

Blessings, Rhoni

Mercy
05-05-2009, 03:34 PM
another definition of everlasting is "age-long". people in hell will suffer an age-long punishment. when the age-long punishment is over, people in hell will be redeemed. imo

So I have a question then: If everlasting is age long, and the Word says God is from everlasting to everlasting....then one day God will end too?

(PS 90:2)

I am trying to understand your reasoning...thats all.

crakjak
05-05-2009, 04:54 PM
Thanks for responding, I guess my next question would be what does everlasting mean to you?

"of the next age" "aionion" "the life of the age to come" "the punishment of the age to come"

Related to punishment it does not mean without end. Pertaining to the life that comes from God, it is without end for only one reason it is the life of
God. Punishment by it's very nature serves a purpose and then ceases, unless you believe God to be punitive in His treatment of those created in His own image.

crakjak
05-05-2009, 04:59 PM
So I have a question then: If everlasting is age long, and the Word says God is from everlasting to everlasting....then one day God will end too?

(PS 90:2)

I am trying to understand your reasoning...thats all.

Of course not, when you inject God as the subject, it becomes without end.

But everlasting does not of itself mean without end, at least not as it is used throughout the OT and NT. The Greek and Hebrew words for everlasting and eternal are the subject of much study, because they are used in what is seeming contradictory ways in the scriptures.

shawndell
05-06-2009, 08:12 AM
I don't believe it in the traditional sense of endless conscious torment. After it has served its purpose of purging, correcting, and the setting of things right it will cease.

Thanks for asking.:thumbsupSome one once taught that eternity is like a steel ball the size of the earth,and every thousand years a sparrow come to brush his wing on this steel ball.By the time that this steel ball wares down to nothing that is not even the beginning of eternity.:heart

shawndell
05-06-2009, 08:19 AM
So are you convinced that this guy, in his entire life on earth, never ONCE was invited to a church, some church that at the bare minimum taught that Jesus is Lord, never ONCE had a thought about letting Jesus into His life, never once heard the song, "Amazing Grace" and never ONCE thought about how that song could possibly minister to his broken life?


As sad as this story reads, if he lived in America, he had a chance for salvation.

God is just, whether this sould ends up in Heaven or hell. I just have a hard time believing that this guy NEVER had a chance.

Though his circumstances were beyond unfortunate, I am prone to believe that he had a chance, probably more than one-- but spurned the opportunities, choosing to carry his own burdens.


As for the sister and anyone else, as long as they are still living, there is still a chance for salvation.I dont know if he was ever told about Jesus but I wonder if he wasnt so damaged that he wasnt capeble of excepting Jesus if he was told.I believe he wasnt told because God is the great healer and would have healed him enough to except the way,truth ,and life.:heart

crakjak
05-06-2009, 08:26 AM
Some one once taught that eternity is like a steel ball the size of the earth,and every thousand years a sparrow come to brush his wing on this steel ball.By the time that this steel ball wares down to nothing that is not even the beginning of eternity.:heart

I call that creative manipulation and fear! If you were raised in a traditional "hellfire" culture you have heard that definition of eternity. It was not enough to try scare the hell out of folks with intense heat and fire, the length of time and the hopelessness of it had to be dramatized.

Is God so weak and powerless to accomplish His purpose of redeeming mankind that He had to resort to such evil and wicked tactics? I have found better and more Godly plans for man in the scriptures, but it requires shedding the doctrines of men, the dark ages and the apostate church.

shawndell
05-06-2009, 08:29 AM
If hell were to be what tradition defines, your statement above is NO comfort at all. What 2000 degrees instead of 3000? One eternity rather than two??I know by the word that there is fire in hell,but I wonder if maybe some will be eaten by demons or tore apart or tortered over and over again.The fear will be stronger than being surounded by a bunch of hungry sharks and every thing we take for granted likefood,water breathing air,and if you were a drug addict maybe your craving for those drugs will still upon them,and then there is the lonelyness of family and friends and any fellowship that we take for granted,and worst of all is being seperated from GOD and knowing that God is far from you.:heart

crakjak
05-06-2009, 08:44 AM
So are you convinced that this guy, in his entire life on earth, never ONCE was invited to a church, some church that at the bare minimum taught that Jesus is Lord, never ONCE had a thought about letting Jesus into His life, never once heard the song, "Amazing Grace" and never ONCE thought about how that song could possibly minister to his broken life?


As sad as this story reads, if he lived in America, he had a chance for salvation.

God is just, whether this sould ends up in Heaven or hell. I just have a hard time believing that this guy NEVER had a chance.

Though his circumstances were beyond unfortunate, I am prone to believe that he had a chance, probably more than one-- but spurned the opportunities, choosing to carry his own burdens.


As for the sister and anyone else, as long as they are still living, there is still a chance for salvation.

JD,

Maybe, you assume that because he may have heard a gospel message at sometime in his life that he had a reasonable and responsible opportunity to respond to the gospel.

I would suggest that due to his experience he more than likely would not have been able to comprehend the Good News. His father and mother died early in his life, to an infant that can be the same as abandonment. Those responsible for his wellbeing and care then abused him. What kind of context is this for someone to understand that there is a unseen benevolent father that loves him?

It is not possible that ALL humans have a fair opportunity to receive the gospel in this life. I will go so far to say that is not God's plan that all will hear and understand the gospel in this life. Therefore, it is clear that He does not stop reaching for "the lost sheep" when this life ends. Why would God create the billions of humans since creation and then abandon the greatest portion of them? If it was that we have hope in this life only, God would have established a better context for ALL to hear and to receive.

I would suggest reading "Hope Beyond Hell" "The righteousness of God's judgment" by Gerry Beauchemin. You can read it online.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

crakjak
05-06-2009, 08:51 AM
I know by the word that there is fire in hell,but I wonder if maybe some will be eaten by demons or tore apart or tortered over and over again.The fear will be stronger than being surounded by a bunch of hungry sharks and every thing we take for granted likefood,water breathing air,and if you were a drug addict maybe your craving for those drugs will still upon them,and then there is the lonelyness of family and friends and any fellowship that we take for granted,and worst of all is being seperated from GOD and knowing that God is far from you.:heart

Sorry, (no, I am not sorry) but I can't find the God that you describe in this post in the scripture. The monster that would create such a place of necessity would have to be Satan, or at least his deceptive lies. Sounds like a horror movie, created by some carnal and depraved Hollywood writer.

Certainly not the Creator, the Heavenly Father, the Judge that will "do right".

The scripture says that our God is a "refining fire", His fires are for one purpose, and that is to refine, to purge, to prune, to correct and to set things right.

Ron
05-06-2009, 01:22 PM
Sorry, (no, I am not sorry) but I can't find the God that you describe in this post in the scripture. The monster that would create such a place of necessity would have to be Satan, or at least his deceptive lies. Sounds like a horror movie, created by some carnal and depraved Hollywood writer.

Certainly not the Creator, the Heavenly Father, the Judge that will "do right".

The scripture says that our God is a "refining fire", His fires are for one purpose, and that is to refine, to purge, to prune, to correct and to set things right.

Sooo, by that token ole Lucifer is going to be back in Heaven one day?:nah

Jermyn Davidson
05-06-2009, 01:54 PM
Jermyn, I understand why you make these statements, but they are no more true than claiming that there's no reason to NOT win the lottery since there's always a chance. However, if one doesn't buy a ticket, let alone even know there IS a lottery, how do they have a chance to win?

Believe it or not, people die every day having no idea that there is a true plan of salvation out there they might have had. Being in America makes it no different than being in Iraq.

If the Bible was so cut and dried, there would be no reason for a Judgment Day, IMO.



If this man had just only walked in the light of what he had known, of what he may have been exposed to, his chances of committing suicide would have been greatly diminished.


I guess when 9/11 happened, the thought of God never seized his heart, even for a brief moment, while the rest of the country looking for answers poured into churches all around.

I guess he was NEVER invited to Sunday School.

The "door knockers" always skipped his house.
God hid him from the street witnessers.
He NEVER drove by a church and when he did, he never saw the sign.


I am not being light with this man's untilmely demise.
However, our just and merciful God extended His hands to this man, like he does all and this man simply decided to do things on his own.

There isn't any way a person can convince me that there is an American adult who has NEVER been invited to a church. I can not be convinced that this grown American adult never drove by a church and never had not one Christian in his life.

If all he ever knew were Baptists, at least they are Christians with a relationship with God. However, the tragedy here is that this man probably rejected any and all Christian influence.

So he crumbled under te weight of his tragic life, when the whole time God was there to help him- but he rejected God's help.

So as a Christian, in light of God's Holy Word, the argument that this guy NEVER HAD A CHANCE IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Jermyn Davidson
05-06-2009, 02:10 PM
JD,

Maybe, you assume that because he may have heard a gospel message at sometime in his life that he had a reasonable and responsible opportunity to respond to the gospel.

I would suggest that due to his experience he more than likely would not have been able to comprehend the Good News. His father and mother died early in his life, to an infant that can be the same as abandonment. Those responsible for his wellbeing and care then abused him. What kind of context is this for someone to understand that there is a unseen benevolent father that loves him?

It is not possible that ALL humans have a fair opportunity to receive the gospel in this life. I will go so far to say that is not God's plan that all will hear and understand the gospel in this life. 1) Therefore, it is clear that He does not stop reaching for "the lost sheep" when this life ends. 2) Why would God create the billions of humans since creation and then abandon the greatest portion of them? 3) If it was that we have hope in this life only, 4) God would have established a better context for ALL to hear and to receive.

I would suggest reading "Hope Beyond Hell" "The righteousness of God's judgment" by Gerry Beauchemin. You can read it online.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1) Scripture?

2) Was not the world DESTROYED by water once before with only ONE FAMILY being saved?

3) This sounds like a portion of scripture, but twisted to fit your falsely comforting view of the Gospel.

4) So the blood of Jesus Christ is not enough for you? Or is it enough for you, but not enough for your neighbor?



I have lost loved ones who are dead and I refuse to be comforted for them.

No! Instead of comforting ourselves with false doctrines and twists of scripture bent upon human emotions, why don't we spend our time living our lives in a way where we can reach those who have not committed suicide, those who are still here! That sister who is incarcerated, Shawndell, have you attempted t reach her or have you encouraged the person who knows her to reach her with the Gospel of Christ?


Why should anyone be comforted with the sucide of someone who was lost when they died?

Don't be comforted! Be stirred and moved to action for the sake of the sick and dying around you!

What's done is already done.
This isn't patty-cake, this is war with real souls at stake!

I hope NO ONE is comforted with the death of this young man! NO ONE!!!!

I hope all who hear his story are moved to action in Jesus Name!!!

crakjak
05-06-2009, 09:37 PM
Sooo, by that token ole Lucifer is going to be back in Heaven one day?:nah

Everything in the earth, everything under the earth, everything above the earth, everything in the sea ... the whole creation is going to be made whole.

The curse and all sin will be brought to an end. That is Bible, is Lucifer in this context somewhere, everything is going to be made right. Nothing that opposes Him will remain, in hell or anywhere else. "...that He may be all in all."

crakjak
05-06-2009, 09:50 PM
1) Scripture?

2) Was not the world DESTROYED by water once before with only ONE FAMILY being saved?

3) This sounds like a portion of scripture, but twisted to fit your falsely comforting view of the Gospel.

4) So the blood of Jesus Christ is not enough for you? Or is it enough for you, but not enough for your neighbor?



I have lost loved ones who are dead and I refuse to be comforted for them.

No! Instead of comforting ourselves with false doctrines and twists of scripture bent upon human emotions, why don't we spend our time living our lives in a way where we can reach those who have not committed suicide, those who are still here! That sister who is incarcerated, Shawndell, have you attempted t reach her or have you encouraged the person who knows her to reach her with the Gospel of Christ?


Why should anyone be comforted with the sucide of someone who was lost when they died?

Don't be comforted! Be stirred and moved to action for the sake of the sick and dying around you!

What's done is already done.
This isn't patty-cake, this is war with real souls at stake!

I hope NO ONE is comforted with the death of this young man! NO ONE!!!!

I hope all who hear his story are moved to action in Jesus Name!!!

Yes, the world that was, was destroyed by water, however you will not be able to use scripture to find the folks destroyed by the flood in some torture chamber called Hell. It was temporal judgment and in no way describes their ultimate end.

So you believe God will add insult to injury, and cast this poor abused and "lost sheep" into an unending torture chamber? No, my friend Jesus died for the sins of all men, for the whole world.

And just as Adam's sin brought condemnation to ALL (I bet you won't deny, that statement), Jesus' blood bought the freedom of each and everyone from Adam's curse. Where sin abounded, the blood of Jesus much more abounded.

No one should be comforted by this young man's death, his is a tragic life. But we should be comforted that the heavenly Father will do what is right for him. God's justice is always loving, and His loving is always just, he will purge him as a refiner of gold or silver, until all impurities are removed and he will clearly see and embrace His heavenly Father.

Ron
05-06-2009, 10:14 PM
Everything in the earth, everything under the earth, everything above the earth, everything in the sea ... the whole creation is going to be made whole.

The curse and all sin will be brought to an end. That is Bible, is Lucifer in this context somewhere, everything is going to be made right. Nothing that opposes Him will remain, in hell or anywhere else. "...that He may be all in all."

You been hanging around Carton Pearson to long.
Good to know there is nothing to be saved from & that hell was just conjured up ta keep ya in line!:gotcha

crakjak
05-06-2009, 10:30 PM
You been hanging around Carton Pearson to long.
Good to know there is nothing to be saved from & that hell was just conjured up ta keep ya in line!:gotcha

Who is Carton Pearson, never meet him?
Brother, we are saved from the penalty of sin, and that is death, if Jesus had not died we would have died and that would be the end of it.

Adam brought it in by himself (with a little help from Eve), Jesus took it out by himself. :heart

Shawn
05-06-2009, 10:43 PM
If this man had just only walked in the light of what he had known, of what he may have been exposed to, his chances of committing suicide would have been greatly diminished.


I guess when 9/11 happened, the thought of God never seized his heart, even for a brief moment, while the rest of the country looking for answers poured into churches all around.

I guess he was NEVER invited to Sunday School.

The "door knockers" always skipped his house.
God hid him from the street witnessers.
He NEVER drove by a church and when he did, he never saw the sign.


I am not being light with this man's untilmely demise.
However, our just and merciful God extended His hands to this man, like he does all and this man simply decided to do things on his own.

There isn't any way a person can convince me that there is an American adult who has NEVER been invited to a church. I can not be convinced that this grown American adult never drove by a church and never had not one Christian in his life.

If all he ever knew were Baptists, at least they are Christians with a relationship with God. However, the tragedy here is that this man probably rejected any and all Christian influence.

So he crumbled under te weight of his tragic life, when the whole time God was there to help him- but he rejected God's help.

So as a Christian, in light of God's Holy Word, the argument that this guy NEVER HAD A CHANCE IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!


Jesus told us to love those who hate and persecute us. Do you think Jesus would not comfort this man, in spite.



'If all he ever knew were Baptists, at least they are Christians with a relationship with God'.....

Not according to many on this forum.

Esther
05-07-2009, 07:37 AM
another definition of everlasting is "age-long". people in hell will suffer an age-long punishment. when the age-long punishment is over, people in hell will be redeemed. imo

What scripture do you have to back up this belief?

Esther
05-07-2009, 07:38 AM
"of the next age" "aionion" "the life of the age to come" "the punishment of the age to come"

Related to punishment it does not mean without end. Pertaining to the life that comes from God, it is without end for only one reason it is the life of
God. Punishment by it's very nature serves a purpose and then ceases, unless you believe God to be punitive in His treatment of those created in His own image.

Is there a scripture you use to back up this belief?

crakjak
05-07-2009, 08:05 AM
Is there a scripture you use to back up this belief?

Too often we want proof text, when it is the whole of scripture that truth is derived. There is not a lack of scriptural support, however tradition is very hard to overcome.

It you are really open to understand God's ultimate purpose for his creation, it is necessary to have the Holy Spirit create in you a holy discontent for false teaching about the character and nature of God. For it is the Holy Spirit that leads and guides into all truth. The following testimony might be used of the HS to plant seeds of truth, it is a very old story, so the language is a bit dated, however the truth rings clearly:

http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/ThirdEpochInMyLife.html

Esther
05-07-2009, 09:54 AM
Too often we want proof text, when it is the whole of scripture that truth is derived. There is not a lack of scriptural support, however tradition is very hard to overcome.

It you are really open to understand God's ultimate purpose for his creation, it is necessary to have the Holy Spirit create in you a holy discontent for false teaching about the character and nature of God. For it is the Holy Spirit that leads and guides into all truth. The following testimony might be used of the HS to plant seeds of truth, it is a very old story, so the language is a bit dated, however the truth rings clearly:

http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/ThirdEpochInMyLife.html

I glanced at it but will read it later when I have the time.

thanks

Fiyahstarter
05-07-2009, 12:33 PM
I just learned today that a 30-year old man that I used to work with committed suicide Monday. He was the nicest guy anyone could ever meet. He had a heart as big as the moon. He had a wife and a 6-year old boy whom he cherished. I haven't worked with him for over two years, so I am not sure of his current condition, but he was a believer and a great person when I knew him. My heart aches to wonder what circumstances were going on in his life that led him to this act of desperation. I am physically ill thinking about him.

One never knows. Life is so fragile. And I believe any one of us might be but one step away from a similar fate--were it not for Jesus. I cannot comprehend life without my Lord.

May God rest Curtis' soul and send healing to the family.

crakjak
05-07-2009, 05:08 PM
I just learned today that a 30-year old man that I used to work with committed suicide Monday. He was the nicest guy anyone could ever meet. He had a heart as big as the moon. He had a wife and a 6-year old boy whom he cherished. I haven't worked with him for over two years, so I am not sure of his current condition, but he was a believer and a great person when I knew him. My heart aches to wonder what circumstances were going on in his life that led him to this act of desperation. I am physically ill thinking about him.

One never knows. Life is so fragile. And I believe any one of us might be but one step away from a similar fate--were it not for Jesus. I cannot comprehend life without my Lord.

May God rest Curtis' soul and send healing to the family.

Amen!!

crakjak
05-07-2009, 05:09 PM
I glanced at it but will read it later when I have the time.

thanks

Well worth the time.

crakjak
05-10-2009, 06:19 PM
I glanced at it but will read it later when I have the time.

thanks

How did it go when you read this?

RandyWayne
05-10-2009, 07:50 PM
I keep humming the the M.A.S.H. theme (Suicide is Painless) when I see this thread.

crakjak
05-10-2009, 10:45 PM
I keep humming the the M.A.S.H. theme (Suicide is Painless) when I see this thread.

Is that really the name of it, that is awful.

RandyWayne
05-10-2009, 11:27 PM
Is that really the name of it, that is awful.

That is the name of the official MASH theme. The only time you ever heard the lyrics was during the original theatrical version.

Through early morning fog I see
visions of the things to be
the pains that are withheld for me
I realize and I can see...

[chorus]:
that suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make
all our little joys relate
without that ever-present hate
but now I know that it's too late, and...

[REFRAIN]
The game of life is hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
so this is all I have to say.

[REFRAIN]
The only way to win is cheat
And lay it down before I'm beat
and to another give my seat
for that's the only painless feat.

[REFRAIN]
The sword of time will pierce our skins
It doesn't hurt when it begins
But as it works its way on in
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...

[REFRAIN]
A brave man once requested me
to answer questions that are key
is it to be or not to be
and I replied 'oh why ask me?'

[chorus]
'Cause suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
...and you can do the same thing if you please.

RandyWayne
05-10-2009, 11:32 PM
Pretty somber lyrics to the theme we all know and love that is played to the scene of Hot lips, Hawkeye, and the rest running toward the medical chopper during the opening credits.

Sister Alvear
05-11-2009, 06:49 AM
Some things are better left in the hands of God..

BrotherEastman
05-11-2009, 02:15 PM
So you don't believe there is a hell?
I do not yet know how he answered as I am reading through this interesting thread; however, I believe that Crak believes in hell and a punishment after death (just not an eternal never ending kind of punishment).

BrotherEastman
05-11-2009, 02:26 PM
Some one once taught that eternity is like a steel ball the size of the earth,and every thousand years a sparrow come to brush his wing on this steel ball.By the time that this steel ball wares down to nothing that is not even the beginning of eternity.:heart
Sis, I remember that same analogy taught by dad and others; however, what is being discussed here is the definition of eternity in the true context of the bible. Some believe that the teaching is "age long" while others see it as "without end". I do believe there is a difference, and I respect Craks view on the subject.

crakjak
05-11-2009, 04:30 PM
Sis, I remember that same analogy taught by dad and others; however, what is being discussed here is the definition of eternity in the true context of the bible. Some believe that the teaching is "age long" while others see it as "without end". I do believe there is a difference, and I respect Craks view on the subject.

Hello, Easty, nice to hear from you, hope everything is well with you and yours.

shawndell
05-12-2009, 12:18 PM
Who said we look through a glass darkly.Its so hard to see with these human eyes,and only understand in part what shall be.My mind fights so hard for understanding,and then im left with broken peices with witch i cant place together that makes any since.Then theres the fear of not understanding what is truth in time to make it to heaven!!DEATH IS TO BE FEARED!!!!!!

SOUNWORTHY
05-12-2009, 01:50 PM
I agree with crakjak, all will be saved in due course.

Then what's the use of even serving God?

SOUNWORTHY
05-12-2009, 01:52 PM
Some things are better left in the hands of God..

All things are better left in the hands of God.

Timmy
05-12-2009, 01:59 PM
Then what's the use of even serving God?

Well, I've been told that fear of punishment is not a good reason for serving God. You should serve God because you love Him. I've been told. ;)

shawndell
05-12-2009, 02:50 PM
Well, I've been told that fear of punishment is not a good reason for serving God. You should serve God because you love Him. I've been told. ;)
You can love him all you want and still be punnished.:heart We fail all the time.

Timmy
05-12-2009, 03:06 PM
You can love him all you want and still be punnished.:heart We fail all the time.

So I've heard. ;)

crakjak
05-12-2009, 03:48 PM
Then what's the use of even serving God?

What?

It is better in every way, in this life and the life to come. We are not saved some mythical torture chamber we are saved from the "wages" of sin, that being death.

Just because everyone will eventually be saved, doesn't mean there is not a cost for living an ungodly life. There is the refining fire to remove all the chaff and dross, though it will have an end, does not mean it will be pleasant.

JDN1972
05-12-2009, 10:09 PM
I would like to weigh in on this matter. First I want every one to know that as born again christian's we should pray every chance we get that the spirit of violence,(inward and outward) be bound and cast into outer darkness, knowing that the days of his return are sooner than we think. We should also realize that it's hard to imagine any demonic force being totally bound. As for myself being filled with the holy ghost, I have and are still going thru things that make me wish for death. I used to drive a tow truck and was really depressed about things and would think about stepping out into traffic daily, But did not. Please understand there are millions of people that go thru things we could never imagine ourselves going thru. Yet they still cope and try to make things better for themselves. My main concern is that christians should spend more time in prayer, than wondering who the devil is going to take next! I REBUKE THAT SPIRIT OF TOLERANCE!!!!! If a man dies of natural causes without Christ we know where he is to spend forever, then why should make exception for those whose lives havn't been as smooth as ours. Where do we draw the line?

John 6:60 (King James Version)

60;Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

shawndell
05-13-2009, 06:01 AM
I would like to weigh in on this matter. First I want every one to know that as born again christian's we should pray every chance we get that the spirit of violence,(inward and outward) be bound and cast into outer darkness, knowing that the days of his return are sooner than we think. We should also realize that it's hard to imagine any demonic force being totally bound. As for myself being filled with the holy ghost, I have and are still going thru things that make me wish for death. I used to drive a tow truck and was really depressed about things and would think about stepping out into traffic daily, But did not. Please understand there are millions of people that go thru things we could never imagine ourselves going thru. Yet they still cope and try to make things better for themselves. My main concern is that christians should spend more time in prayer, than wondering who the devil is going to take next! I REBUKE THAT SPIRIT OF TOLERANCE!!!!! If a man dies of natural causes without Christ we know where he is to spend forever, then why should make exception for those whose lives havn't been as smooth as ours. Where do we draw the line?

John 6:60 (King James Version)

60;Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?I love your picture it brings to mind who holds the keys to death,hell.and the grave.You are right we need to run to Jesus.He is our savior and hes strong enough to over come any thing!:heart:heart

BrotherEastman
05-13-2009, 06:16 AM
Hello, Easty, nice to hear from you, hope everything is well with you and yours.
Thank you my friend. All is well.

BrotherEastman
05-13-2009, 06:18 AM
Who said we look through a glass darkly.Its so hard to see with these human eyes,and only understand in part what shall be.My mind fights so hard for understanding,and then im left with broken peices with witch i cant place together that makes any since.Then theres the fear of not understanding what is truth in time to make it to heaven!!DEATH IS TO BE FEARED!!!!!!
If one's heart is right, then death should be embraced my sister, not feared.

BrotherEastman
05-13-2009, 06:25 AM
Then what's the use of even serving God?
The use in serving God is because you love him, not because there is some torturous punishment waiting to consume you without end.

I think Crak believes that God is a consuming fire, and that even though there is a punishment for the wicked, all will eventually be redeemed. I'm not sure I agree with Crak, although his belief does not seem to contradict biblical doctrine on the matter which makes me think twice about disagreeing with him.

BrotherEastman
05-13-2009, 06:27 AM
You can love him all you want and still be punnished.:heart We fail all the time.
My beloved sister, would you punish your child without end?

Crossfire
05-13-2009, 08:28 AM
Can the unrepentant be redeemed?

BrotherEastman
05-13-2009, 10:00 AM
Can the unrepentant be redeemed?
What? You don't think people in hell will be repentant?

shawndell
05-13-2009, 12:34 PM
What? You don't think people in hell will be repentant?
I bet every word out of their mouth is repentance.:heart:heart

shawndell
05-13-2009, 12:35 PM
My beloved sister, would you punish your child without end?I love my bratts to much for that but I sure can nagg but it doesnt work.:heart:heart