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El Predicador
05-04-2009, 02:57 PM
According to MicroTrends by Mark J. Penn

EVERY denomination that has espoused Women Pastors has had a drastic and long term DROP in membership.

I Tim 2:11-15

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

I Cor 14:35

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church


Don't hate The Preacher for what is in the Word !!

KWSS1976
05-04-2009, 03:04 PM
They don't keep quiet in church all that shouting and stuff so why not let them preach they don't obey I COR 14:35.. So just let them preach...

El Predicador
05-04-2009, 03:13 PM
They don't keep quiet in church all that shouting and stuff so why not let them preach they don't obey I COR 14:35.. So just let them preach...


EVERY denomination that has espoused Women Pastors has had a drastic and long term DROP in membership.

Since the Bible doesn't seem to carry any weight, perhaps the reason quoted above is sufficient.

The ancient landmarks are there for a reason !

Sister Alvear
05-04-2009, 03:13 PM
Our church has grown and grown and grown...thank God for any man or woman that will reach souls.

Whoever said that did not study early Pentecostal history or early history of foreign Missions...

Cindy
05-04-2009, 03:15 PM
I don't believe it has anything to do with women preaching. I think it's because they can watch TV or use the internet instead of going to church.

HeavenlyOne
05-04-2009, 03:36 PM
I don't know where that guy got his info, but many churches standing today were started by women preachers and pastors. I know of a church that ran 500 while a woman was pastor. Today, it runs about 150 underneath the same male pastor that took over that church after her death several years ago.

My grandma is Methodist and has had a woman pastor for several years, even though it's been different pastors. Her church has also grown.

Praxeas
05-04-2009, 07:38 PM
I don't believe in woman pastors but this verse has nothing to do with the topic.

You have to understand the context of the time and culture. Women were not allowed to learn at all. The Christian church changed that.

The setting is "learning", while in church during teaching they were not to speak.

From what I have heard before, churches were segregated with men on one side and women on the other. Women were not the loud boisterous types we have come to all known and love today :-)

Rather they were the kind that kept to themselves and deferred to the husband.

And so at church they were asking their husbands questions and disrupting the lesson. Paul is saying that they should wait and ask at home.

1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Timmy
05-04-2009, 07:56 PM
The Assemblies of God has ordained women pastors for many decades. I don't think it has suffered, as a result. (Not in membership numbers, anyway. :lol)

LUKE2447
05-04-2009, 09:12 PM
Women can minister but not teach in a setting over men in which they are acting over heads of homes ala church setting. They can teach 60% of the population but not over men.

RandyWayne
05-04-2009, 09:37 PM
Women can minister but not teach in a setting over men in which they are acting over heads of homes ala church setting. They can teach 60% of the population but not over men.

I am not sure what your saying here, not that you care what I think..... Are you saying that no adult male can have a woman as a teacher?

MissBrattified
05-04-2009, 09:59 PM
According to MicroTrends by Mark J. Penn

EVERY denomination that has espoused Women Pastors has had a drastic and long term DROP in membership.

I Tim 2:11-15

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

I Cor 14:35

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church


Don't hate The Preacher for what is in the Word !!

Do you have a quote from the book, and a matching source?

EA
05-04-2009, 10:12 PM
Thank God for lady men of God.

EA
05-04-2009, 10:27 PM
We wouldn't have a whole big bunch of our church's if lady men of God hadn't started them.

Hoovie
05-04-2009, 10:33 PM
EA, That's just flat wrong!

Lady men of God. The images! Get them outta my head!

MissBrattified
05-04-2009, 10:39 PM
:toofunny

Digging4Truth
05-05-2009, 06:36 AM
Women preachers have been fairly popular in the UPC from the very beginning.


So... according to this theory... UPC has been dying from day one.

I grew up in a church with a woman pastor. I was 26 years old before I ever had a male pastor. And all of those years under a woman pastor has not made me an advocate of women pastors either...

But the correlation that is being drawn here is baseless.

El Predicador
05-05-2009, 07:30 AM
Do you have a quote from the book, and a matching source?





I grew up in a church with a woman pastor. I was 26 years old before I ever had a male pastor. And all of those years under a woman pastor has not made me an advocate of women pastors either...

But the correlation that is being drawn here is baseless.

Individual experiences do not a trend make.

Sis Brattified,

All of pages 53-57 are dedicated to the topic far too much to retype.

It comes with accompanying documentation and graphs.

A couple quotes:

"In the past two decades, the number of female clergy has more than tripled. Women students in divinity school just passed 51%.... But a deeper look at the struggles of women clergy suggests that what's ahead may not be Good News.... In the past fifty years, nearly every major religious group in America that has permitted women clergy has seen a profound drop in membership. And every major religious group that has excluded women clergy has seen a dramatic rise... As the chart below shows, mainline Protestant groups that permit women clergy have dropped in membership. Most other denominations that exclude them have grown."

Detailed chart on page 55 covering 1960-2002

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 07:38 AM
Do these people baptize in Jesus Name?

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 07:44 AM
Please understand I personally like the idea of MEN pastors...however many women that I have known and know have given their whole lives for souls...I know there are some odd ones out there but I have met my share of odd men too...

I feel even in my line of work...I was probably not God´s first choice...however when He said go I went...

Hoovie
05-05-2009, 07:44 AM
"mainline Protestant groups" would exclude denominations like UPC, and possibly even AOG.

Justin
05-05-2009, 08:13 AM
Our church has grown and grown and grown...thank God for any man or woman that will reach souls.

Whoever said that did not study early Pentecostal history or early history of foreign Missions...

Could you elaborate?

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 08:40 AM
Yes, Justin I will. A little over 40 years ago I came as a young single girl to Brazil...Today thousands and thousands of souls have came to the Lord under my ministry. Of course it is not Janice Alvear but the obedience to the call of the Lord. My husband is the overseer and director however when I came I was only a female voice...

I personally believe in male leadership being God´s plan when at all possible so when I married at my wish I turned all leadeship over to my husband....and the workers...today there are maybe 500 or more preachers but it had it´s beginning in a little girl that God called.

We do have a few lady ministers and lady pastor´s ...not the norm but there are a few. Five of our adopted children their mother a preacher and national missionary was martyered many years ago...So among our people there is a great respect for ladies that toil in the fields...

ILG
05-05-2009, 09:37 AM
I am not sure what your saying here, not that you care what I think..... Are you saying that no adult male can have a woman as a teacher?

I think that's what he is saying. Women are just dinglefritzin' jezebels when they want to lead spiritually. I'm not sure what that makes Deborah though. :D

LadyRev
05-05-2009, 09:40 AM
Yes, Justin I will. A little over 40 years ago I came as a young single girl to Brazil...Today thousands and thousands of souls have came to the Lord under my ministry. Of course it is not Janice Alvear but the obedience to the call of the Lord. My husband is the overseer and director however when I came I was only a female voice...

I personally believe in male leadership being God´s plan when at all possible so when I married at my wish I turned all leadeship over to my husband....and the workers...today there are maybe 500 or more preachers but it had it´s beginning in a little girl that God called.

We do have a few lady ministers and lady pastor´s ...not the norm but there are a few. Five of our adopted children their mother a preacher and national missionary was martyered many years ago...So among our people there is a great respect for ladies that toil in the fields...

No one can argue with your results Sis. Alvear. :thumbsup

ILG
05-05-2009, 09:47 AM
No one can argue with your results Sis. Alvear. :thumbsup

Lady Rev,

You're just a dinglefritzin' jezebel. :foottap

RandyWayne
05-05-2009, 10:05 AM
I think that's what he is saying. Women are just dinglefritzin' jezebels when they want to lead spiritually. I'm not sure what that makes Deborah though. :D

I am curious because there are so many ramifications to this way of thinking. Should an adult male walk out of a college class if his professor is a woman? Some would say "yes!". Should an adult male quit his job if his direct manager is a woman? Again, some would say yes.

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 10:06 AM
I will listen to anyone that wants to teach me something I want to know...even a child...

MissBrattified
05-05-2009, 10:10 AM
Yes, Justin I will. A little over 40 years ago I came as a young single girl to Brazil...Today thousands and thousands of souls have came to the Lord under my ministry. Of course it is not Janice Alvear but the obedience to the call of the Lord. My husband is the overseer and director however when I came I was only a female voice...

I personally believe in male leadership being God´s plan when at all possible so when I married at my wish I turned all leadeship over to my husband....and the workers...today there are maybe 500 or more preachers but it had it´s beginning in a little girl that God called.

We do have a few lady ministers and lady pastor´s ...not the norm but there are a few. Five of our adopted children their mother a preacher and national missionary was martyered many years ago...So among our people there is a great respect for ladies that toil in the fields...

I thank God for Christian women like you, Sister Alvear. :thumbsup

I will listen to anyone that wants to teach me something I want to know...even a child...

Now THAT is important. :)

LadyRev
05-05-2009, 10:13 AM
Lady Rev,

You're just a dinglefritzin' jezebel. :foottap

Is that anything like a rompin rebel rouser? :D

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 10:20 AM
Is that anything like a rompin rebel rouser? :D

we could put them in the ring....see who hits the hardest:foottap

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 10:23 AM
I thank God for Christian women like you, Sister Alvear. :thumbsup



Now THAT is important. :)


Thank you my sweet friend...love you.

LadyRev
05-05-2009, 10:58 AM
we could put them in the ring....see who hits the hardest:foottap

We could put ILG in the ring. Now that would be interesting.
:spit

Praxeas
05-05-2009, 11:27 AM
Maybe the drop in membership is due to something else. Or maybe the drop in membership...ie MALE membership has led to the rise of female clergy

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 11:28 AM
We could put ILG in the ring. Now that would be interesting.
:spit


I will cheer for our team from this side of the waters....:thumbsup

Falla39
05-05-2009, 11:30 AM
In the early 1930's, it was two mothers who obeyed God in repenting, being baptized
in Jesus Name, for the remission of their sins, and God filled them with the Holy Ghost,
evidenced by speaking in tongues.
It was not the fathers, but the mothers that said YES to Jesus! Obeying the gospel
that has now been passed on from generation to generation. Five and ready to go
into the sixth.

No, it wasn't the men but the women who answered the call to be a child of GOD!
ONE was my paternal grandmother and the other was my maternal grandmother!
One from each of their families, a man and a woman, who had also received the Holy
Ghost experience, was my late parents.

Our son in law, married to our middle daughter, pastors the church our late father and
mother founded in 1958. His late Great-grandmother, his late grandmother and her sister,
all came out of the Assemblies of God over 60 yrs ago and obeyed this Apostolic truth.
He is the first of his family to have a "man" obey the gospel. It wasn't his grandfather,
but his grandmother, who obeyed and lived an example to this boy and now a full time
preacher (pastor) of the gospel, a husband and dedicated father of four. His eldest son
is a 15 1/2 yr. old, anointed of God, and being called to be faithful also. Another genera-
tion of TRUTH! TRUTH that sets men FREE, who will believe it!!

Teamwork WILL make the DREAM work! BUT IF he won't do his part, SHE WILL, and CAN
DO IT with GOD"S HELP!! It has been proven to be true! Wise women still seek HIM!

The apostle Paul knew that young Timothy had faith in God because he first saw it in
his grandmother Lois and in his mother, Eunice! He believed it to be in young Timothy
too! Paul wasn't nobody's dummy! And neither are we women! In Christ there is
.....! There are many faithful men who have also obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ
since those early beginnings.

Hugs,

Falla39

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 11:34 AM
In the early 1930's, it was two mothers who obeyed God in repenting, being baptized
in Jesus Name, for the remission of their sins, and God filled them with the Holy Ghost,
evidenced by speaking in tongues.
It was not the fathers, but the mothers that said YES to Jesus! Obeying the gospel
that has now been passed on from generation to generation. Five and ready to go
into the sixth.

No, it wasn't the men but the women who answered the call to be a child of GOD!
ONE was my paternal grandmother and the other was my maternal grandmother!
One from each of their families, a man and a woman, who had also received the Holy
Ghost experience, was my late parents.

Our son in law, married to our middle daughter, pastors the church our late father and
mother founded in 1958. His late Great-grandmother, his late grandmother and her sister,
all came out of the Assemblies of God over 60 yrs ago and obeyed this Apostolic truth.
He is the first of his family to have a "man" obey the gospel. It wasn't his grandfather,
but his grandmother, who obeyed and lived an example to this boy and now a full time
preacher (pastor) of the gospel, a husband and dedicated father of four. His eldest son
is a 15 1/2 yr. old, anointed of God, and being called to be faithful also. Another genera-
tion of TRUTH! TRUTH that sets men FREE, who will believe it!!

Teamwork WILL make the DREAM work! BUT IF he won't do his part, SHE WILL, and CAN DO
IT with GOD"S
HELP!! It has been proven to be true! Wise women still seek HIM!

The apostle Paul knew that young Timothy had faith in God because he first saw it in
his grandmother Lois and in his mother, Eunice! He believed it to be in young Timothy
too! Paul wasn't nobody's dummy! And neither are we women! In Christ there is
.....!

Hugs,

Falla39




A word fitly spoken is like
apples of gold in pictures of silver.
Proverbs 25:11

Cindy
05-05-2009, 11:37 AM
In the early 1930's, it was two mothers who obeyed God in repenting, being baptized
in Jesus Name, for the remission of their sins, and God filled them with the Holy Ghost,
evidenced by speaking in tongues.
It was not the fathers, but the mothers that said YES to Jesus! Obeying the gospel
that has now been passed on from generation to generation. Five and ready to go
into the sixth.

No, it wasn't the men but the women who answered the call to be a child of GOD!
ONE was my paternal grandmother and the other was my maternal grandmother!
One from each of their families, a man and a woman, who had also received the Holy
Ghost experience, was my late parents.

Our son in law, married to our middle daughter, pastors the church our late father and
mother founded in 1958. His late Great-grandmother, his late grandmother and her sister,
all came out of the Assemblies of God over 60 yrs ago and obeyed this Apostolic truth.
He is the first of his family to have a "man" obey the gospel. It wasn't his grandfather,
but his grandmother, who obeyed and lived an example to this boy and now a full time
preacher (pastor) of the gospel, a husband and dedicated father of four. His eldest son
is a 15 1/2 yr. old, anointed of God, and being called to be faithful also. Another genera-
tion of TRUTH! TRUTH that sets men FREE, who will believe it!!

Teamwork WILL make the DREAM work! BUT IF he won't do his part, SHE WILL, and CAN DO
IT with GOD"S
HELP!! It has been proven to be true! Wise women still seek HIM!

The apostle Paul knew that young Timothy had faith in God because he first saw it in
his grandmother Lois and in his mother, Eunice! He believed it to be in young Timothy
too! Paul wasn't nobody's dummy! And neither are we women! In Christ there is
.....!

Hugs,

Falla39

:thumbsup

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 11:56 AM
Sister Falla has no equal in her postings...beautiful, sincere and never offensive...such a golden spirit.

Falla39
05-05-2009, 01:24 PM
Sister Falla has no equal in her postings...beautiful, sincere and never offensive...such a golden spirit.



Thank you, Sis.Alvear,

I love and appreciate you very much! Praying that GOD
WILL touch you completely, in Jesus Name!:heart

Hugs,

Falla39

Hoovie
05-05-2009, 01:40 PM
I am curious because there are so many ramifications to this way of thinking. Should an adult male walk out of a college class if his professor is a woman? Some would say "yes!". Should an adult male quit his job if his direct manager is a woman? Again, some would say yes.

I don't know anyone like that.

RandyWayne
05-05-2009, 02:54 PM
I don't know anyone like that.

I have heard some men proclaim it on other (more conservative) message boards.

LadyRev
05-05-2009, 02:58 PM
I have heard some men proclaim it on other (more conservative) message boards.

I've heard it too but hesitated to say anything until a man brought it up.

A.W. Bowman
05-05-2009, 03:29 PM
Too much! A topic designed only to inflame and to divide.

First, can women teach? God does use back-up plans. Even the entire Levitical Priesthood was a"fall-back plan".

In the writings of Paul we can see where he sometimes puts his own spin on things. The often used reference of I Tim 2:11-15 is an excellent example of this writing/instruction style (a referenced often used but seldom actually read and even less understood) rests in 1 Tim 2:12.

Second, there is a difference between counseling, teaching, providing guidance and providing spiritual authority over another person. Women have been exercising these functions over males sense the birth of Cain.

Should a women have and exercise spiritual authority over men? I suggest looking at God's description and plan for marriage. The church is to be a marriage relationship. Does the church actually reflect God's original intent? Not likely!

Solution: Before removing women from leadership roles that God has called, ordained, and established (fruit inspectors please step forward), let's start by cleaning out the the false teachers, prophets, and other wolves who are eating the saints of God alive! If it were not for the wife of Moses taking authority over her household, and even over Moses himself, he would never have lived to make it back to Egypt to lead God's people out of bondage. While on the road to Egypt, God sent an angel to kill him.

Our Lord is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow, and of the things about our God that never changes, is that He is always doing things differently than He has in the past.

-----------------

For men only.

Marriage, A Different Point of View (http://hashaliach.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=2&func=view&catid=19&id=347)

----------------

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 04:41 PM
agreed...

Praxeas
05-05-2009, 04:50 PM
As I pointed out before the verses in question don't prevent a woman from speaking in church at all. However I would not be ok with a woman pastor. I don't think that was God's design. However if not enough men step up then I can see God calling women.

A person can teach and not be a Pastor

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 04:56 PM
As a lady I feel unconfortable teaching men but I have done it for there was a need...
I have never felt I was God´s first choice and certainly not the best choice for Brazil...but when HE called I came running...

Praxeas
05-05-2009, 05:01 PM
As a lady I feel unconfortable teaching men but I have done it for there was a need...
I have never felt I was God´s first choice and certainly not the best choice for Brazil...but when HE called I came running...
My honest opinion is...women need to be sensitive to how God created men...yes even to the male ego, when teaching. Women can be teachers but they have to understand guys.

There was a thread here on a study of how there are so few men in the church but more women. It basically said the church was too feminine for men. It was geared to women and not men emotionally speaking.

I think there is some truth to that.

crakjak
05-05-2009, 05:30 PM
What is in the heart of a man to prohibit any servant of God of serving? Thank God for my grandmother, I and all of my six brothers (and four sisters) are believers of the gospel and just about any one of the can and will preach give half an opportunity.

Let's argue about something worth arguing, this is a tired and worn out argument.

We live in the new covenant, where there is no difference in the sight of the Lord of male or female. Matter of fact He is neither male or female He is Spirit.

"I am not man that I should lie." Jehovah

Fiyahstarter
05-05-2009, 10:26 PM
Solution: Before removing women from leadership roles that God has called, ordained, and established (fruit inspectors please step forward), let's start by cleaning out the the false teachers, prophets, and other wolves who are eating the saints of God alive!
-----------------

----------------

A BIG FAT AMEN belongs here!!!!

Hoovie
05-05-2009, 10:29 PM
My honest opinion is...women need to be sensitive to how God created men...yes even to the male ego, when teaching. Women can be teachers but they have to understand guys.

There was a thread here on a study of how there are so few men in the church but more women. It basically said the church was too feminine for men. It was geared to women and not men emotionally speaking.

I think there is some truth to that.

yep. That is what the "Why Men Hate Church" book is about too. I just loaned my copy to a local Baptist pastor.

Justin
05-06-2009, 06:45 AM
Yes, Justin I will. A little over 40 years ago I came as a young single girl to Brazil...Today thousands and thousands of souls have came to the Lord under my ministry. Of course it is not Janice Alvear but the obedience to the call of the Lord. My husband is the overseer and director however when I came I was only a female voice...

I personally believe in male leadership being God´s plan when at all possible so when I married at my wish I turned all leadeship over to my husband....and the workers...today there are maybe 500 or more preachers but it had it´s beginning in a little girl that God called.

We do have a few lady ministers and lady pastor´s ...not the norm but there are a few. Five of our adopted children their mother a preacher and national missionary was martyered many years ago...So among our people there is a great respect for ladies that toil in the fields...

Awesome testimony, thanks for sharing.

Sister Alvear
05-06-2009, 07:19 AM
Awesome testimony, thanks for sharing.


Thank you!

Dear ones a true lady of God has no problem with male leadership that is not abusive...I have been around some precious men that I would have no trouble looking up to them as a leader...
Most of us women are not wanting to be Joan of Arc....lol...We enjoy having strong men for protection....

Sister Alvear
05-06-2009, 07:24 AM
We just had our special services here and not once did I go to our high platform( we have 2 platforms)
Someone said and I over heard, "call the missionary to sit on the high platform..." the other answered, "she doesn´t like to sit up there..."

Dear ones....If you really want to do something for God you will not be worried about who gets the honor or glory...the people KNOW who works and who likes to be seen...so it matters not what sex you happen to be there is room to gleam in HIS fields....

HeavenlyOne
05-06-2009, 07:56 AM
As I pointed out before the verses in question don't prevent a woman from speaking in church at all. However I would not be ok with a woman pastor. I don't think that was God's design. However if not enough men step up then I can see God calling women.

A person can teach and not be a Pastor

You know, I've heard this same statement so many times, but every time I hear it, it sounds like God doesn't know what He's doing. I mean, if He's all-knowing, why do you suggest He uses women as a last resort? Isn't He all-knowing enough to find men who will step up?

We don't see in scripture where God calls someone to do a work, then just goes to someone else if that person doesn't step up, right? No, He is all-powerful enough to MAKE that person step up, and we see that several times in scripture.

But that statement highlighted above has no Biblical basis whatsoever. None. Women aren't second-class to God, but that's exactly what that statement sounds like.

ILG
05-06-2009, 08:28 AM
We could put ILG in the ring. Now that would be interesting.
:spit

ILG is a pacifist. She would Kumbaya them into line! :ursofunny

ILG
05-06-2009, 08:32 AM
I am curious because there are so many ramifications to this way of thinking. Should an adult male walk out of a college class if his professor is a woman? Some would say "yes!". Should an adult male quit his job if his direct manager is a woman? Again, some would say yes.

Probably very few take it this far. However, the ramifications are huge. People who believe this say they are only believing what the Bible says. Therefore, they frame all their beliefs around what THEY believe the Bible says (and minimizing what the prophetesses and Deborah the Judge in the OT did). Sadly, when women are not allowed a place in the pastorate, they are ultimately devalued in some way, shape or form, irregardless of the strong desires of those who hold these beliefs NOT to devalue women. They say that women just have a different role, but ultimately women's votes on weighty matters of importance are ultimately excluded to the detriment of the whole organization that believes it.

Sister Alvear
05-06-2009, 09:05 AM
I would never want anyone to feel I was a threat to them...I just want to be a helper...

ILG
05-06-2009, 09:11 AM
I would never want anyone to feel I was a threat to them...I just want to be a helper...

Big men don't feel threatened by women. However, some people sincerely do believe that the Bible doesn't allow women pastors.

OnTheFritz
05-06-2009, 09:34 AM
You know, I've heard this same statement so many times, but every time I hear it, it sounds like God doesn't know what He's doing. I mean, if He's all-knowing, why do you suggest He uses women as a last resort? Isn't He all-knowing enough to find men who will step up?

We don't see in scripture where God calls someone to do a work, then just goes to someone else if that person doesn't step up, right? No, He is all-powerful enough to MAKE that person step up, and we see that several times in scripture.

But that statement highlighted above has no Biblical basis whatsoever. None. Women aren't second-class to God, but that's exactly what that statement sounds like.

He is, but he won't. If he did, everyone would be saved - since he does not wish that any should perish...

edjen01
05-06-2009, 09:39 AM
interesting. so God creates us all...male & female in His image...blesses us all with His grace, love, and mercy...gives us all gifts & talents...but then says that less than half are even "allowed" to pastor?

to be a true "pastor"...is a calling that God places on someone...who He has given the talents and abilites to perform the call. IMO....to say that God only uses women as "pastors"...when qualified men are not willing is ridiculous. I know plenty of unqualified men who cash a check every week and have the title "pastor"...yet they are allowed to continue thier fraud...if only a Godly woman would step up. thats just goofy!!

God calls who He wants...and gifts us to answer His call. I do not believe God has one problem with a woman pastor, evangelist, prophet, teacher, or apostle. we do...not Him.

edjen01
05-06-2009, 09:41 AM
Big men don't feel threatened by women. However, some people sincerely do believe that the Bible doesn't allow women pastors.

sincerity doesn't equal truth. a person can be sincerly wrong.

Hoovie
05-06-2009, 09:43 AM
Edjen, do you believe there was not one qualified woman Christ could have chosen as a Disciple?

I don't think the issue is qualification of talents and abilities to perform at all.

edjen01
05-06-2009, 09:51 AM
Edjen, do you believe there was not one qualified woman Christ could have chosen as a Disciple?

I don't think the issue is qualification of talents and abilities to perform at all.

i believe there were many...but because of the cultural restrictions of His day...He MAY have not called any. remember...we read a manitized version of His calling of disciples.

so...if it is not talents(given by God) or abilities(some natural some learned)....then what is it? anointing? calling? do you believe God would gift someone...but then tell them "if only you would've been born a man...what a great pastor you would've made"

ILG
05-06-2009, 10:25 AM
sincerity doesn't equal truth. a person can be sincerly wrong.

Of course, but they do sincerly believe it and so it colors all their thinking on the matter and, unfortunatley, about women's capabilites in general.

LadyRev
05-06-2009, 10:52 AM
My honest opinion is...women need to be sensitive to how God created men...yes even to the male ego, when teaching. Women can be teachers but they have to understand guys.

There was a thread here on a study of how there are so few men in the church but more women. It basically said the church was too feminine for men. It was geared to women and not men emotionally speaking.

I think there is some truth to that.

The same can be said for male leaders. They need to be sensitive to how God created women. Men can be teachers of women but they have to understand women. It shouldn't simply be "assumed" that if a man is called by God that he is automatically able to effectively minister to women.

This sensitivity and understanding is often lacking yet women don't generally bail out of the church saying its too masculine and its geared towards men.

Personally, I don't buy this "feminization of the church" stuff among apostolic churches at all. It doesn't even make sense.

Hoovie
05-06-2009, 10:55 AM
The same can be said for male leaders. They need to be sensitive to how God created women. Men can be teachers of women but they have to understand women. It shouldn't simply be "assumed" that if a man is called by God that he is automatically able to effectively minister to women.

This sensitivity and understanding is often lacking yet women don't generally bail out of the church saying its too masculine and its geared towards men.

Personally, I don't buy this "feminization of the church" stuff among apostolic churches at all. It doesn't even make sense.

LOL! As a lady and a "Rev" should we have expected anything less from you?? :gotcha

Hoovie
05-06-2009, 11:02 AM
i believe there were many...but because of the cultural restrictions of His day...He MAY have not called any. remember...we read a manitized version of His calling of disciples.

so...if it is not talents(given by God) or abilities(some natural some learned)....then what is it? anointing? calling? do you believe God would gift someone...but then tell them "if only you would've been born a man...what a great pastor you would've made"

Yeah, I have heard that, but it does not seem like Christ at all - to shirk. Much of what He did was counter cultural and it included giving women equal value and standing with God.

I don't see the holy scripture as "manatized" but rather perfect in it's entirity.

One could have natural abilities and yet not be called. I may have all the characteristics needed to nuture and mother my children, yet in no way does that mean I was called to be a mother.

edjen01
05-06-2009, 11:03 AM
The same can be said for male leaders. They need to be sensitive to how God created women. Men can be teachers of women but they have to understand women. It shouldn't simply be "assumed" that if a man is called by God that he is automatically able to effectively minister to women.

This sensitivity and understanding is often lacking yet women don't generally bail out of the church saying its too masculine and its geared towards men.

Personally, I don't buy this "feminization of the church" stuff among apostolic churches at all. It doesn't even make sense.

then what is your explaination for why most churches are disproportionally(?) made up of women?

LadyRev
05-06-2009, 11:25 AM
LOL! As a lady and a "Rev" should we have expected anything less from you?? :gotcha


Of course not. :D

I might add that as a youth pastor, I have an awful time with my girls because everything is geared towards men/boys and most of them want to be a part of everything and anything the men/boys are doing whether its best for them or not!

Granted, some of this is due to society and the times we are living in. But a large portion of it is also due to the church being dominantly geared towards men.

edjen01
05-06-2009, 11:32 AM
Yeah, I have heard that, but it does not seem like Christ at all - to shirk. Much of what He did was counter cultural and it included giving women equal value and standing with God.

I don't see the holy scripture as "manatized" but rather perfect in it's entirity.

One could have natural abilities and yet not be called. I may have all the characteristics needed to nuture and mother my children, yet in no way does that mean I was called to be a mother.

why would this be shirking? and while He does believe women are equal with men...He made both...we never read of him charging into the temple and demanding equal seating rights for both...or equal pay...neither does he start an anti-slavery coalition. what i'm saying is that Jesus came for a primary purpose...to redeem us to God...and did not allow himself to get sidetracked with many other issues of his culture.

as for the NT being manatized....do you really think that the 27 books contained in the NT are the only and best teachings about Christ and His Church? And don't you think that there were any books writen by women/or about women during this time? wonder why they would not be included?

while we cannot know exactly everything that went on to create the NT...this we do know...a group of men...took a large group of books(way more than 27)...and through debate and dicussion decided on some...and then from that group(more than 27) came the 27 that we now have.

with the natual abilites...i think you misread me....or maybe I miswrote. I said...or meant to say...that God calls those who He has gifted. nowhere did I say that gifting = calling. some are called and some are not....but I believe there are many more who are gifted than are called...and likewise many who simply do(pastor) who are not called or gifted....but thats another thread.:)

I didn't realize "motherhood" was a calling....hmmm....i learned something today!!

LadyRev
05-06-2009, 11:33 AM
then what is your explaination for why most churches are disproportionally(?) made up of women?

Women, in general, are security minded by nature. Men are generally more independent. Women will gravitate toward that which provides them with a sense of security and acceptance for themselves and their family.

edjen01
05-06-2009, 11:37 AM
Women, in general, are security minded by nature. Men are generally more independent. Women will gravitate toward that which provides them with a sense of security and acceptance for themselves and their family.

those are some pretty large brush strokes.

so women go to church to feel security and acceptance and men don't go because they are independent? if this is true....then how do bars, football teams, golf courses, etc..., get men to give up thier "independance"?

*AQuietPlace*
05-06-2009, 11:47 AM
those are some pretty large brush strokes.

so women go to church to feel security and acceptance and men don't go because they are independent? if this is true....then how do bars, football teams, golf courses, etc..., get men to give up thier "independance"?
Football games and bars don't usually have someone in charge who is bossing you and your family around. :) Many churches do have a 'boss' who tells families how they must live, whether the head of that particular family likes it or not.

I do think that many churches have emasculated the men, by the pastor taking over the role as head of the family. Thankfully, not all churches or pastors are like this.

RandyWayne
05-06-2009, 12:10 PM
Football games and bars don't usually have someone in charge who is bossing you and your family around. :) Many churches do have a 'boss' who tells families how they must live, whether the head of that particular family likes it or not.

I do think that many churches have emasculated the men, by the pastor taking over the role as head of the family. Thankfully, not all churches or pastors are like this.

I was raised in this sort of environment, meaning I was raised by the pastor with my folks as his proxy. It has created an intense distrust ever since.

As far as bars and sports go, that is nothing but "male bonding". :)

edjen01
05-06-2009, 12:23 PM
I was raised in this sort of environment, meaning I was raised by the pastor with my folks as his proxy. It has created an intense distrust ever since.

As far as bars and sports go, that is nothing but "male bonding". :)

exactly!!!....why can't churches use this same idea.

it is a sin....that some pastors have used "God" and "church" as a hammer to smash apart families...may God have mercy on thier souls.

LadyRev
05-06-2009, 12:23 PM
those are some pretty large brush strokes.

so women go to church to feel security and acceptance and men don't go because they are independent? if this is true....then how do bars, football teams, golf courses, etc..., get men to give up thier "independance"?

When speaking in general terms, yes, the brush will be pretty large. :)

By going to bars, football games, etc. men are exercising their independence. No one is there telling them what to do and not to do. They are with their buddies having a good time but they don't flock to the restroom in groups like females at the same bar may do. Does that make it a bit clearer?

*AQuietPlace*
05-06-2009, 12:32 PM
exactly!!!....why can't churches use this same idea.

it is a sin....that some pastors have used "God" and "church" as a hammer to smash apart families...may God have mercy on thier souls.
I personally know many, many, MANY people who were told by their pastors that they were not allowed to speak to family members if the family members left their church. Parents were not allowed to speak to their own children. And most of the family members who left didn't even "backslide", they just went to another Pentecostal church.

Some pastors will have a lot to answer for on judgment day.

edjen01
05-06-2009, 12:33 PM
When speaking in general terms, yes, the brush will be pretty large. :)

By going to bars, football games, etc. men are exercising their independence. No one is there telling them what to do and not to do. They are with their buddies having a good time but they don't flock to the restroom in groups like females at the same bar may do. Does that make it a bit clearer?

not really....i don't know why females go to the restroom in packs....but I don't think it has anything to do with security or acceptance....just like i think men going to bars, sporting venues, golf courses, etc...has nothing to do with them feeling independant.

bars, sporting venues, golf courses, all these places men go to and like to go to.....all have rules. and men understand these rules and how they are enforced....so I don't think men play golf because there are no rules and they are showing thier independance...or men attend sporting events because because they feel "set free"....or something.

I think men go to these places because they enjoy the activities going on there....and maybe they will go with some friends or see some friends there and have a great time....i don't think it has anything to do with independance.

my question is why aren't more church like this? why aren't they places where men want to go and where men have a great time?

edjen01
05-06-2009, 12:35 PM
I personally know many, many, MANY people who were told by their pastors that they were not allowed to speak to family members if the family members left their church. Parents were not allowed to speak to their own children. And most of the family members who left didn't even "backslide", they just went to another Pentecostal church.

Some pastors will have a lot to answer for on judgment day.

this is so sad...but true....and I believe on thier judgement day they will be wishing for millstones...instead of His wrath.

Sister Alvear
05-06-2009, 12:48 PM
Sadly I know a LOT like that...

LadyRev
05-06-2009, 12:59 PM
not really....i don't know why females go to the restroom in packs....but I don't think it has anything to do with security or acceptance....just like i think men going to bars, sporting venues, golf courses, etc...has nothing to do with them feeling independant.

bars, sporting venues, golf courses, all these places men go to and like to go to.....all have rules. and men understand these rules and how they are enforced....so I don't think men play golf because there are no rules and they are showing thier independance...or men attend sporting events because because they feel "set free"....or something.

I think men go to these places because they enjoy the activities going on there....and maybe they will go with some friends or see some friends there and have a great time....i don't think it has anything to do with independance.

my question is why aren't more church like this? why aren't they places where men want to go and where men have a great time?

Ok, now you have me wondering about your age. No offense intended. :)

Security minded females, in general, don't care to be alone. Not even when they go to the restroom. They like company wherever they go. They like to have someone to talk to. If alone, they will often talk on the phone with someone.

Guys like their male companionship too but its generally not based on a sense of security or acceptance. They do so just to have fun.

As someone else already said, no one is telling them what to do when they are at a bar or a ball game. Sure, there are rules but thats way different than someone actually telling them how to live their lives.

Depending on the church and its leadership, a guy can be very unhappy with what appears to be other people dictating his life.

Digging4Truth
05-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Ok, now you have me wondering about your age. No offense intended. :)

Security minded females, in general, don't care to be alone. Not even when they go to the restroom. They like company wherever they go. They like to have someone to talk to. If alone, they will often talk on the phone with someone.

Guys like their male companionship too but its generally not based on a sense of security or acceptance. They do so just to have fun.

As someone else already said, no one is telling them what to do when they are at a bar or a ball game. Sure, there are rules but thats way different than someone actually telling them how to live their lives.

Depending on the church and its leadership, a guy can be very unhappy with what appears to be other people dictating his life.

I haven't read much of this thread... I just jumped in and saw this post...

But... I think ministry needs to move away from the things that make people feel like people are dictating their lives and make a move toward teaching the word in a manner that would equip people to take control of their own lives with their own understanding of the word and their own relationship with God.

I think to do otherwise does undermine the God given role of a man to be the head of his household.

But the fear that these people will come to different conclusions than the one ministering does not allow for this.

Hoovie
05-06-2009, 01:20 PM
why would this be shirking? and while He does believe women are equal with men...He made both...we never read of him charging into the temple and demanding equal seating rights for both...or equal pay...neither does he start an anti-slavery coalition. what i'm saying is that Jesus came for a primary purpose...to redeem us to God...and did not allow himself to get sidetracked with many other issues of his culture.

as for the NT being manatized....do you really think that the 27 books contained in the NT are the only and best teachings about Christ and His Church? And don't you think that there were any books writen by women/or about women during this time? wonder why they would not be included?

while we cannot know exactly everything that went on to create the NT...this we do know...a group of men...took a large group of books(way more than 27)...and through debate and dicussion decided on some...and then from that group(more than 27) came the 27 that we now have.

with the natual abilites...i think you misread me....or maybe I miswrote. I said...or meant to say...that God calls those who He has gifted. nowhere did I say that gifting = calling. some are called and some are not....but I believe there are many more who are gifted than are called...and likewise many who simply do(pastor) who are not called or gifted....but thats another thread.:)

I didn't realize "motherhood" was a calling....hmmm....i learned something today!!

:) I don't have time for all of this right now, but as to the last comment... Not only is it a calling - I think it is a very high calling, a sacred, spiritual appointment of God himself. :thumbsup

Hoovie
05-06-2009, 01:21 PM
Football games and bars don't usually have someone in charge who is bossing you and your family around. :) Many churches do have a 'boss' who tells families how they must live, whether the head of that particular family likes it or not.

I do think that many churches have emasculated the men, by the pastor taking over the role as head of the family. Thankfully, not all churches or pastors are like this.

yup

edjen01
05-06-2009, 01:23 PM
Ok, now you have me wondering about your age. No offense intended. :) 37

Security minded females, in general, don't care to be alone. Not even when they go to the restroom. They like company wherever they go. They like to have someone to talk to. If alone, they will often talk on the phone with someone.

Guys like their male companionship too but its generally not based on a sense of security or acceptance. They do so just to have fun.

As someone else already said, no one is telling them what to do when they are at a bar or a ball game. Sure, there are rules but thats way different than someone actually telling them how to live their lives.

Depending on the church and its leadership, a guy can be very unhappy with what appears to be other people dictating his life.

i do understand that some females do not like being alone...but I do not think it is mostly security/acceptance driven. agreed there are times when a female would feel unsafe and the need to have more people with her...but i do not believe this is the primary reason they go to the restroom in packs...or attend church.

i agree with you concerning the role the church body and leadership can play...which is why I ask my question....why can't churches be more like the places men like to go?

so if i read this right....men go to fun places because...even if they have rules...nobody tells them how to live thier lives...and they go to fun places because they like to have fun.

Why can't a church do that...be that!!!!

who said that church had to be a rules-based, boring place...where you get told how to live your life? I don't see that in the gospels. I do see Jesus hanging out with men...camping...boating...fishing...doing extreme sports(walking on water)...and along the way...He would teach them and challenge them...and He became thier friends. I think men would respond to this type of church today!!!

Hoovie
05-06-2009, 01:23 PM
I personally know many, many, MANY people who were told by their pastors that they were not allowed to speak to family members if the family members left their church. Parents were not allowed to speak to their own children. And most of the family members who left didn't even "backslide", they just went to another Pentecostal church.

Some pastors will have a lot to answer for on judgment day.

I would happily remove myself from such a club.

edjen01
05-06-2009, 01:27 PM
:) I don't have time for all of this right now, but as to the last comment... Not only is it a calling - I think it is a very high calling, a sacred, spiritual appointment of God himself. :thumbsup

hmmmm...a sacred, spiritual calling?? I agree that mothers deserve honor...but I do not read of this being a Biblical calling.

Hoovie
05-06-2009, 01:31 PM
hmmmm...a sacred, spiritual calling?? I agree that mothers deserve honor...but I do not read of this being a Biblical calling.

Speaking of my responsibilities as a Father... I consider my duties as spiritual as (perhaps more?) anything that happens at corporate church assembly.

Of course Jesus is the center of our family life, and he has placed and called me for such a time and season. Indeed, I believe the family is a primary sacred institution.

*AQuietPlace*
05-06-2009, 01:38 PM
I would happily remove myself from such a club.
People in such churches have usually been browbeaten and scared into honestly believing that they'll fry in hell if they leave.

edjen01
05-06-2009, 01:38 PM
Speaking of my responsibilities as a Father... I consider my duties as spiritual (perhaps more?) as anything that happens at corporate church assembly.

Of course Jesus is the center of our family life, and he has placed and called me for such a time and season. Indeed, I believe the family is a primary sacred institution.

i do not question a father's responsibilities...but I do not see where it is a Biblical calling...unless you take the whole "be fruitful and multiply" as being a personal calling.:) the fact that I have children...makes me a father...but I do not believe that means God called me to be a father...i can't find that in the text.

LadyRev
05-06-2009, 02:02 PM
i do understand that some females do not like being alone...but I do not think it is mostly security/acceptance driven. agreed there are times when a female would feel unsafe and the need to have more people with her...but i do not believe this is the primary reason they go to the restroom in packs...or attend church.



If women don't find security and acceptance in the church they will find it elsewhere. Its in our nature.

Salvation should lead to a sense of security, in God of course. God's love should lead to a feeling of acceptance. Add fellowship with other women and bingo, you have a combo that appeals to women.

Women often remain in an abusive relationship with a man because of a false sense of security. Where will I go? What will I do? Etc. all come to mind if someone suggests she leave the jerk.

Likewise, women will often remain in a church that may not be ideal due to a sense of security whether it be false or otherwise. Men on the other hand will bail out or will unhappily remain for the sake of their spouse. Ask me how I know...on second thought, don't ask.

HeavenlyOne
05-06-2009, 04:06 PM
He is, but he won't. If he did, everyone would be saved - since he does not wish that any should perish...

You say He won't, but there are several examples in scripture where He did. I don't find any scripture where He called someone to do something and when they wouldn't 'step-up', He decided to just find someone else. And I'm speaking not of calling people to salvation, but to do a certain job in the kingdom. I don't believe God will 'settle' for a woman because He can't get men to do His will.

Falla39
05-06-2009, 04:27 PM
Ezekiel 22:30 (King James Version)

30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.

James Griffin
05-06-2009, 05:33 PM
According to MicroTrends by Mark J. Penn

EVERY denomination that has espoused Women Pastors has had a drastic and long term DROP in membership.




The problem with the original premise in Microtrends is Causality vs Correlation.

The examples given by some posters are wonderfully anecdotal however the fact remains by and large conservative denominations may allow women pastors, but that is not the norm, nor a significant percentage. Women pastors are treated more with tolerance than genuine respect.

Therefore we look at who is embracing women pastors and we find ourselves looking at the most liberal denominations. It is true that denominations which have openly embraced female pastors are on the decline, but is that the CAUSE, (since all liberal denominations are rapidly losing membership)?

The logic presented is somewhat akin to that used in Freakonomics to support the proposition that Roe v Wade was responsible for a decrease in violent crime, perhaps the offspring of the poor are more likely to commit crime, but the same time period also saw major overhauls of criminal justice systems in states like Texas which greatly reduced recidivism. Just because one can find a correlation in data does not mean you have found THE cause. (Especially in a multi-faceted issue.)

Therefore unless or until conservatives embrace the fairer sex in pastoral positions (don’t hold your breath) it is totally rhetorical. There is absolutely no way to determine what contribution, IF ANY, that having women pastors have contributed to the decline of those denominations.

Praxeas
05-06-2009, 07:41 PM
You know, I've heard this same statement so many times, but every time I hear it, it sounds like God doesn't know what He's doing. I mean, if He's all-knowing, why do you suggest He uses women as a last resort? Isn't He all-knowing enough to find men who will step up?

We don't see in scripture where God calls someone to do a work, then just goes to someone else if that person doesn't step up, right? No, He is all-powerful enough to MAKE that person step up, and we see that several times in scripture.

But that statement highlighted above has no Biblical basis whatsoever. None. Women aren't second-class to God, but that's exactly what that statement sounds like.
Well if he is all knowing why not just call saints that will never backslide?

The problem is your post ignores one little fact....will.

Praxeas
05-06-2009, 07:44 PM
interesting. so God creates us all...male & female in His image...blesses us all with His grace, love, and mercy...gives us all gifts & talents...but then says that less than half are even "allowed" to pastor?

to be a true "pastor"...is a calling that God places on someone...who He has given the talents and abilites to perform the call. IMO....to say that God only uses women as "pastors"...when qualified men are not willing is ridiculous. I know plenty of unqualified men who cash a check every week and have the title "pastor"...yet they are allowed to continue thier fraud...if only a Godly woman would step up. thats just goofy!!

God calls who He wants...and gifts us to answer His call. I do not believe God has one problem with a woman pastor, evangelist, prophet, teacher, or apostle. we do...not Him.
You know you have a good point! And why not take that even further. How dare God make us all in His image and then say less than half are even allowed to get pregnant...why not allow us all to be able to have children? I'm sure there are some men out there that want to experience being pregnant beyond having a balloon stuck under his shirt at a baby shower. Goofy?

RandyWayne
05-06-2009, 08:14 PM
You know you have a good point! And why not take that even further. How dare God make us all in His image and then say less than half are even allowed to get pregnant...why not allow us all to be able to have children? I'm sure there are some men out there that want to experience being pregnant beyond having a balloon stuck under his shirt at a baby shower. Goofy?

Or sneaking nacho's into a ballgame!

ILG
05-06-2009, 08:44 PM
The same can be said for male leaders. They need to be sensitive to how God created women. Men can be teachers of women but they have to understand women. It shouldn't simply be "assumed" that if a man is called by God that he is automatically able to effectively minister to women.

This sensitivity and understanding is often lacking yet women don't generally bail out of the church saying its too masculine and its geared towards men.

Personally, I don't buy this "feminization of the church" stuff among apostolic churches at all. It doesn't even make sense.

I agree, LR.

crakjak
05-06-2009, 10:32 PM
Ezekiel 22:30 (King James Version)

30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

edjen01
05-07-2009, 11:10 AM
You know you have a good point! And why not take that even further. How dare God make us all in His image and then say less than half are even allowed to get pregnant...why not allow us all to be able to have children? I'm sure there are some men out there that want to experience being pregnant beyond having a balloon stuck under his shirt at a baby shower. Goofy?

apples and airplanes. the image of God has nothing to do with who can get pregnant....thats genetics...not God.

however....it is God....and not genetics...who truely calls pastors.

ILG
05-07-2009, 11:12 AM
Funny. Women are capable of pastoring but men are not capable of having babies. Are there some men who are, perhaps, jealous? Women need men, even if men can't figure out why! LOL!

Hoovie
05-07-2009, 01:50 PM
No jealousy here - of ministers male or female.

Speaking of women preachers and babies.... Of the woman men of God I have observed, it is highly questionable whether some of them would have the ability to bear children.

I really did not need to go there... perhaps I should move this to the nursing thread.

:ursofunny

HeavenlyOne
05-07-2009, 02:49 PM
Well if he is all knowing why not just call saints that will never backslide?

The problem is your post ignores one little fact....will.

Prax, you are ignoring the fact that when God called someone to do a specific job and they refused, He pretty much forced them to do it. Show me one example where He called someone and when they refused, He gave up and found someone else.

There is a difference in salvation that is a gift and a calling from God. Yes, both involve will, but when God wants something done, He'll make sure it gets done.

rgcraig
05-07-2009, 03:10 PM
No jealousy here - of ministers male or female.

Speaking of women preachers and babies.... Of the woman men of God I have observed, it is highly questionable whether some of them would have the ability to bear children.

I really did not need to go there... perhaps I should move this to the nursing thread.

:ursofunny

eewww - you are in trouble now!

A.W. Bowman
05-07-2009, 03:11 PM
See Exodus 4:24-28.

While it did not actually happen, Moses was about to be replace by God's second choice, Aaron. If it had not been for the timely intervention of Zipporah, there would have been no story of Moses to retell throughout the ages. It would have been the story of Aaron the Law Giver.

Also note, Zipporah took authority over Moses as husband and head of the family and performed a "man's only responsibility".

Our God just does not fit into a box.

----------------

Another "second choice" was the establishment of the Levitical priesthood.

HeavenlyOne
05-07-2009, 04:09 PM
See Exodus 4:24-28.

While it did not actually happen, Moses was about to be replace by God's second choice, Aaron. If it had not been for the timely intervention of Zipporah, there would have been no story of Moses to retell throughout the ages. It would have been the story of Aaron the Law Giver.

Also note, Zipporah took authority over Moses as husband and head of the family and performed a "man's only responsibility".

Our God just does not fit into a box.

----------------

Another "second choice" was the establishment of the Levitical priesthood.

The statement was made that God will choose a woman when a man won't step up to the call. Not only does this make God sound like He's choosing second-class over first-class, but it makes Him not all-powerful. I don't believe Moses was about to be replaced. God is all-knowing as well, and He knew that Moses would do what He called him to do, even though He had to use some persuasion to get the job done, as He did many times in scripture.

But I still don't see a single instance where God called someone to do a work, and when they refused to 'step-up', He chose someone else....or even a woman to do the job instead.

However, I do find in scripture where God used both men and women to do His calling, and when those folks didn't 'step-up', He did some persuasive moves to help their positive decisions along...LOL! But nowhere do we find Him giving up and settling someone else, not even for what some might make it sound as a lesser person to do the job.

However, I'm interested in knowing who didn't do their job that warranted God setting up the priesthood to do it for them. Forgive me, as I'm tired and not putting words together right, but I'm truly interested in how that got started.

A.W. Bowman
05-07-2009, 05:48 PM
However, I'm interested in knowing who didn't do their job that warranted God setting up the priesthood to do it for them. Forgive me, as I'm tired and not putting words together right, but I'm truly interested in how that got started.

My pleasure, sis.

God’s original intent was to have the first born male of each family to be a priest unto Him. However, because of some problems with a cow at Mt. Sinai (Exodus 32 ), God revoked that plan and substituted the one tribe that rallied to Him, the Levites - and He made them a tribe of priests unto Himself.


Exodus 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the first-born, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.

Numbers 3:12-13 And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the first-born that openeth the womb among the children of Israel; and the Levites shall be mine: for all the first-born are mine; on the day that I smote all the first-born in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the first-born in Israel, both man and beast; mine they shall be: I am Jehovah.

Numbers 8:18 And I have taken the Levites instead of all the first-born among the children of Israel.

Even so, the first born remained God’s, and he had to be redeemed from the service of God, even though he had been rejected from service. Later, the redemption requirement (sacrifice at the Temple) would even include the very son of God! See Luke 2:21-24

Numbers 18:15 Everything that openeth the womb, of all flesh which they offer unto Jehovah, both of man and beast shall be thine: nevertheless the first-born of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.


An additional interesting insight into the wilderness experience includes the story about how Moses got God to change His mind concerning the future of His chosen people, and why today the Jews call Abraham ”the father of their nation”, rather than Moses. Everyone really should take some time and read through the Torah, Psalms and the prophets with Jesus on their mind.

Sister, I hope you found this small offering useful.

HeavenlyOne
05-07-2009, 08:47 PM
My pleasure, sis.

God’s original intent was to have the first born male of each family to be a priest unto Him. However, because of some problems with a cow at Mt. Sinai (Exodus 32 ), God revoked that plan and substituted the one tribe that rallied to Him, the Levites - and He made them a tribe of priests unto Himself.



Even so, the first born remained God’s, and he had to be redeemed from the service of God, even though he had been rejected from service. Later, the redemption requirement (sacrifice at the Temple) would even include the very son of God! See Luke 2:21-24


An additional interesting insight into the wilderness experience includes the story about how Moses got God to change His mind concerning the future of His chosen people, and why today the Jews call Abraham ”the father of their nation”, rather than Moses. Everyone really should take some time and read through the Torah, Psalms and the prophets with Jesus on their mind.

Sister, I hope you found this small offering useful.

Oh, thanks so much, really! I found it quite interesting, having never heard that before. I intent to read more about that and the reasoning behind that decision. I have always wondered why God changed His mind so much in the OT and not anywhere else. But that's another thread..LOL!

Again, thanks a bunch, my friend.

Praxeas
05-07-2009, 10:05 PM
Prax, you are ignoring the fact that when God called someone to do a specific job and they refused, He pretty much forced them to do it. Show me one example where He called someone and when they refused, He gave up and found someone else.

There is a difference in salvation that is a gift and a calling from God. Yes, both involve will, but when God wants something done, He'll make sure it gets done.

King Saul. He replaced his first choice with King David.

Falla39
05-09-2009, 03:28 PM
In the early 1930's, it was two mothers who obeyed God in repenting, being baptized
in Jesus Name, for the remission of their sins, and God filled them with the Holy Ghost,
evidenced by speaking in tongues.
It was not the fathers, but the mothers that said YES to Jesus! Obeying the gospel
that has now been passed on from generation to generation. Five and ready to go
into the sixth.

No, it wasn't the men but the women who answered the call to be a child of GOD!
ONE was my paternal grandmother and the other was my maternal grandmother!
One from each of their families, a man and a woman, who had also received the Holy
Ghost experience, was my late parents. My late father was the first "male" in our
family to obey the Apostolic message of truth!

Our son in law, married to our middle daughter, pastors the church our late father and
mother founded in 1958. His late Great-grandmother, his late grandmother and her sister,
all came out of the Assemblies of God over 60 yrs ago and obeyed this Apostolic truth.
He is the first of his family to have a "man" obey the gospel. It wasn't his grandfather,
but his grandmother, who obeyed and lived an example to this boy and now a full time
preacher (pastor) of the gospel, a husband and dedicated father of four. His eldest son
is a 15 1/2 yr. old, anointed of God, and being called to be faithful also. Another genera-
tion of TRUTH! TRUTH that sets men FREE, who will believe it!!

Teamwork WILL make the DREAM work! BUT IF he won't do his part, SHE WILL, and CAN
DO IT with GOD"S HELP!! It has been proven to be true! Wise women still seek HIM!

The apostle Paul knew that young Timothy had faith in God because he first saw it in
his grandmother Lois and in his mother, Eunice! He believed it to be in young Timothy
too! Paul wasn't nobody's dummy! And neither are we women! In Christ there is
.....! There are many faithful men who have also obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ
since those early beginnings.

Hugs,

Falla39


BUMP!!!!

Sister Alvear
05-09-2009, 05:06 PM
My pleasure, sis.

God’s original intent was to have the first born male of each family to be a priest unto Him. However, because of some problems with a cow at Mt. Sinai (Exodus 32 ), God revoked that plan and substituted the one tribe that rallied to Him, the Levites - and He made them a tribe of priests unto Himself.



Even so, the first born remained God’s, and he had to be redeemed from the service of God, even though he had been rejected from service. Later, the redemption requirement (sacrifice at the Temple) would even include the very son of God! See Luke 2:21-24


An additional interesting insight into the wilderness experience includes the story about how Moses got God to change His mind concerning the future of His chosen people, and why today the Jews call Abraham ”the father of their nation”, rather than Moses. Everyone really should take some time and read through the Torah, Psalms and the prophets with Jesus on their mind.

Sister, I hope you found this small offering useful.




That is very interesting...I have never heard it like that before. Thank you.

A.W. Bowman
05-09-2009, 05:12 PM
That is very interesting...I have never heard it like that before. Thank you.

You are most welcome - and was of some vakue.