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LadyRev
05-05-2009, 11:44 AM
Jer 3:15 -
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Jer 10:21 -
For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jer 12:10 -
Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jer 23:1 -
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jer 23:2 -
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

GraceAmazing
05-05-2009, 11:48 AM
Jer 3:15 -
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Jer 10:21 -
For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jer 12:10 -
Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jer 23:1 -
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 -
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.


To me, that is the scariest scripture in the Bible! Pastoring is never easy and sometimes sheep do scatter...this scripture has been highlighted and underlined in my Bible since my Bible College days...it really struck a nerve with me...

LadyRev
05-05-2009, 12:09 PM
To me, that is the scariest scripture in the Bible! Pastoring is never easy and sometimes sheep do scatter...this scripture has been highlighted and underlined in my Bible since my Bible College days...it really struck a nerve with me...

These scriptures should be a warning to all those who try to "lord over" God's heritage and thus end up destroying and/or scattering sheep.

The attitude of "if they don't like it, they can leave" is rampant these days. It should not be found among pastors.

Timmy
05-05-2009, 12:22 PM
Jeremiah: preacher-basher!

LadyRev
05-05-2009, 12:26 PM
Jeremiah: preacher-basher!


Better him than me! :thumbsup

Timmy
05-05-2009, 12:27 PM
Better him than me! :thumbsup

:toofunny

Margies3
05-05-2009, 12:28 PM
I did a double take on your thread title. I thought initially that you had misspelled the word British and was trying to figure out what the British pastors were doing that was scattering the sheep. LOL

Sister Alvear
05-05-2009, 12:28 PM
scary...I have been around so many hard preachers in my life...I hope that it has NOT rubbed off on me...

LadyRev
05-05-2009, 01:30 PM
I did a double take on your thread title. I thought initially that you had misspelled the word British and was trying to figure out what the British pastors were doing that was scattering the sheep. LOL

LOL!:ursofunny

rgcraig
05-05-2009, 01:59 PM
scary...I have been around so many hard preachers in my life...I hope that it has NOT rubbed off on me...

This could never happen!

RandyWayne
05-05-2009, 02:30 PM
I did a double take on your thread title. I thought initially that you had misspelled the word British and was trying to figure out what the British pastors were doing that was scattering the sheep. LOL

Hear hear! I say! I say!

http://www.morethings.com/fan/monty_python/nudge-nudge-monty-python-105.jpg

gloryseeker
05-05-2009, 02:35 PM
Jer 3:15 -
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Jer 10:21 -
For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jer 12:10 -
Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jer 23:1 -
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jer 23:2 -
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

I wonder why there is never a thread about the sheep that scatter the Pastors? The statistics are amazing of the number of Pastors that give up because they have no support, no one who will work toward the vision, people bickering over where the piano sits, or some other carnal aspect of the carnal Christians life?

LadyRev
05-05-2009, 02:53 PM
I wonder why there is never a thread about the sheep that scatter the Pastors? The statistics are amazing of the number of Pastors that give up because they have no support, no one who will work toward the vision, people bickering over where the piano sits, or some other carnal aspect of the carnal Christians life?

How about a thread as to why they have no support, no one who will work, etc.?

Everything rises and falls on leadership.

rgcraig
05-05-2009, 02:58 PM
I wonder why there is never a thread about the sheep that scatter the Pastors? The statistics are amazing of the number of Pastors that give up because they have no support, no one who will work toward the vision, people bickering over where the piano sits, or some other carnal aspect of the carnal Christians life?

Please post those statistics and cite the source.

gloryseeker
05-05-2009, 03:43 PM
How about a thread as to why they have no support, no one who will work, etc.?

Everything rises and falls on leadership.

Very good point. I agree with you that everything rises and falls on leadership, but there are a few factors that also affect this:

1. I don't believe most theological cemeteries teach their students how to lead. They teach many things, which are probably good, but with the absence of leadership principles the new minister won't know how to lead.

2. The church is a volunteer army that, for the most part, is without pay. therefore you can have the strongest of leaders, but you can't lead those who are unwilling to follow. Add into that the lack of knowledge of leading you then have a major problem.

3. Said to say, but the church is VERY carnal these days. You are not going to get carnal Christians to follow the Spirit of God to do the things that God wants to do in their city. There is a heavy cost in being a Christian...which is a cost that too many are unwilling to pay

I guess I would finalize by saying that I agree with you that everything does ultimately rise and fall on leadership, but the Bible tells us to pray for those who have rule over us. I wonder how many believers actively and consistently pray for their leader?

gloryseeker
05-05-2009, 03:43 PM
Please post those statistics and cite the source.

Barna Research has published extensive stats on this. I don't have them handy, but I believe the website is barna.org

LadyRev
05-05-2009, 03:55 PM
Very good point. I agree with you that everything rises and falls on leadership, but there are a few factors that also affect this:

1. I don't believe most theological cemeteries teach their students how to lead. They teach many things, which are probably good, but with the absence of leadership principles the new minister won't know how to lead.

2. The church is a volunteer army that, for the most part, is without pay. therefore you can have the strongest of leaders, but you can't lead those who are unwilling to follow. Add into that the lack of knowledge of leading you then have a major problem.

3. Said to say, but the church is VERY carnal these days. You are not going to get carnal Christians to follow the Spirit of God to do the things that God wants to do in their city. There is a heavy cost in being a Christian...which is a cost that too many are unwilling to pay

I guess I would finalize by saying that I agree with you that everything does ultimately rise and fall on leadership, but the Bible tells us to pray for those who have rule over us. I wonder how many believers actively and consistently pray for their leader?

I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree. However, allow me to play devils advocate. :)

Why do you think it is that one pastor can go to a city and fail and another pastor can go to the same city, take over the same church with at least some of the same people and have incredible success and growth?

El Predicador
05-05-2009, 04:07 PM
Please post those statistics and cite the source.


Sources polls in Focus on the Family, Ministries Today, Charisma Magazine, TNT Ministries, and other respected groups taken in 2007:

• 1,500 pastors leave the ministry permanently each month in America.
• 7,000 churches close each year in America.
• 50% of pastors’ marriages end in divorce.
• 70% of pastors continually battle depression.
• 80% of pastors and 85% of their spouses feel discouraged in their roles.
• 70% of pastors do not have a close friend, confidant, or mentor.
• 50% of pastors are so discouraged they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way to make a living.• .
• 80% of seminary graduates who enter ministry will leave the ministry within the first five years.

• 80% of pastors’ wives feel their husbands are overworked.
• 80% of the adult children of pastors sought professional help for depression.
• 90% of pastors said their training was inadequate for ministry.
• 85% of pastors report that their biggest problem is dealing with abstinent elders, deacons, worship leaders, worship teams, board members, and associate pastors.


• 90% of pastors said the hardest thing about ministry is uncooperative people.
• 70% of pastors are grossly underpaid.
• 80% of pastors’ wives feel unappreciated by the congregation.
• 90% of pastors said ministry was completely different from what they thought it would be.
• 80% of pastors’ wives feel pressured to be someone they are not and do things they are not called to do in the church.
• Over 50% of pastors’ wives feel that their husbands entering ministry was the most destructive thing to ever happen to their families.

RandyWayne
05-05-2009, 04:12 PM
Those are troubling statistics..... that is until you realize you can substitute the word "pastor" with almost any other profession can probably come up with similar numbers.

HeavenlyOne
05-05-2009, 04:14 PM
Very good point. I agree with you that everything rises and falls on leadership, but there are a few factors that also affect this:

1. I don't believe most theological cemeteries teach their students how to lead. They teach many things, which are probably good, but with the absence of leadership principles the new minister won't know how to lead.



Maybe that's the real problem...LOL!

Hegavmelif
05-05-2009, 04:18 PM
I especially find the last one interesting. When was the last time a pastor visited you or your family? The only interaction we get is well, none. But I am not needy, neither is my family, we just go to church pay our tithes and offerings and hang out with our friends.

HeavenlyOne
05-05-2009, 04:18 PM
Sources polls in Focus on the Family, Ministries Today, Charisma Magazine, TNT Ministries, and other respected groups taken in 2007:

• 1,500 pastors leave the ministry permanently each month in America.
• 7,000 churches close each year in America.
• 50% of pastors’ marriages end in divorce.
• 70% of pastors continually battle depression.
• 80% of pastors and 85% of their spouses feel discouraged in their roles.
• 70% of pastors do not have a close friend, confidant, or mentor.
• 50% of pastors are so discouraged they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way to make a living.• .
• 80% of seminary graduates who enter ministry will leave the ministry within the first five years.

• 80% of pastors’ wives feel their husbands are overworked.
• 80% of the adult children of pastors sought professional help for depression.
• 90% of pastors said their training was inadequate for ministry.
• 85% of pastors report that their biggest problem is dealing with abstinent elders, deacons, worship leaders, worship teams, board members, and associate pastors.


• 90% of pastors said the hardest thing about ministry is uncooperative people.
• 70% of pastors are grossly underpaid.
• 80% of pastors’ wives feel unappreciated by the congregation.
• 90% of pastors said ministry was completely different from what they thought it would be.
• 80% of pastors’ wives feel pressured to be someone they are not and do things they are not called to do in the church.
• Over 50% of pastors’ wives feel that their husbands entering ministry was the most destructive thing to ever happen to their families.

I don't see how any of this is different than other leadership professions. Put 'police officer supervisor' in most of the above statements and the stats are the same. Put 'nursing supervisor' there and the same results are had. In fact, put any leadership occupation in the above statements and you will find those are true as well.

Pastors are people too, so why should their stats be better than everyone else's?

HeavenlyOne
05-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Those are troubling statistics..... that is until you realize you can substitute the word "pastor" with almost any other profession can probably come up with similar numbers.

Good grief!!! Nevermind my post!!!!

RevDWW
05-05-2009, 04:26 PM
Some Pastors seem to think they are cowboys; driving the herd. That doesn't work with sheep, they need to be led.

El Predicador
05-05-2009, 05:05 PM
I don't see how any of this is different than other leadership professions. Put 'police officer supervisor' in most of the above statements and the stats are the same. Put 'nursing supervisor' there and the same results are had. In fact, put any leadership occupation in the above statements and you will find those are true as well.

Pastors are people too, so why should their stats be better than everyone else's?

"Over 50% of nursing supervisors’ wives feel that their husbands entering nursing was the most destructive thing to ever happen to their families."

Sorry doesn't just ring true !! You're total dismissal that there are ANY special pressures attached to ministry or minsters family's is rather refreshing in its honesty, typical of this forum and a great reminder why I (or any other conservative) so rarely post here anymore.

Goodbye.

RandyWayne
05-05-2009, 06:50 PM
"Over 50% of nursing supervisors’ wives feel that their husbands entering nursing was the most destructive thing to ever happen to their families."

Sorry doesn't just ring true !! You're total dismissal that there are ANY special pressures attached to ministry or minsters family's is rather refreshing in its honesty, typical of this forum and a great reminder why I (or any other conservative) so rarely post here anymore.

Goodbye.

Have you ever managed a store? Or had any position with employees under you as well as supervisors over you demanding results?

And yes, having a spouse in the medical field IS stressful.

OnTheFritz
05-05-2009, 08:13 PM
"Over 50% of nursing supervisors’ wives feel that their husbands entering nursing was the most destructive thing to ever happen to their families."

Sorry doesn't just ring true !! You're total dismissal that there are ANY special pressures attached to ministry or minsters family's is rather refreshing in its honesty, typical of this forum and a great reminder why I (or any other conservative) so rarely post here anymore.

Goodbye.

I believe that pastors have unique challenges -- as do many other professions. I admire people that take on the role of pastor.

But seriously.... seems that some conservatives on this board get together and agree to state something like this (bolded) at the end of every post... Why not just put it in your signature? How does this discussion have anything to do with conservatives vs. liberals? Good grief.

EA
05-05-2009, 08:49 PM
I see both sides.

Before I was a pastor, I assisted, and I could tell you some horror stories.

But honestly, if you've never pastored, you can't even imagine the pressure. And I don't say that to puff us pastors up. I promise you it's not something I treasure.

The financial pressure alone is killer.

tbpew
05-05-2009, 08:50 PM
I believe that pastors have unique challenges -- as do many other professions. I admire people that take on the role of pastor.

But seriously.... seems that some conservatives on this board get together and agree to state something like this (bolded) at the end of every post... Why not just put it in your signature? How does this discussion have anything to do with conservatives vs. liberals? Good grief.
maybe some folks who believe they are pastors feel compelled to always have an emotional closing to fortify their use of persuasion.

OnTheFritz
05-05-2009, 09:03 PM
maybe some folks who believe they are pastors feel compelled to always have an emotional closing to fortify their use of persuasion.

It does invoke an emotion -- though probably not the intended one... :bigbaby

Fiyahstarter
05-05-2009, 09:34 PM
I see both sides.

Before I was a pastor, I assisted, and I could tell you some horror stories.

But honestly, if you've never pastored, you can't even imagine the pressure. And I don't say that to puff us pastors up. I promise you it's not something I treasure.

The financial pressure alone is killer.

I can see this being the case...

Fiyahstarter
05-05-2009, 09:36 PM
Pastors are about as appreciated as mothers.... LOL.

gloryseeker
05-05-2009, 09:47 PM
I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree. However, allow me to play devils advocate. :)

Why do you think it is that one pastor can go to a city and fail and another pastor can go to the same city, take over the same church with at least some of the same people and have incredible success and growth?

My personal belief is that the main difference will be one knows how to follow God and the other doesn't. I am a firm believer that there is no failure in God. When we experience failure we either missed God in "going" or missed God along the way.

Now, that is quite different from having problems. In this world we have tribulation, but greater is He that is in us than He that is in the world.

HeavenlyOne
05-06-2009, 08:05 AM
"Over 50% of nursing supervisors’ wives feel that their husbands entering nursing was the most destructive thing to ever happen to their families."

Sorry doesn't just ring true !! You're total dismissal that there are ANY special pressures attached to ministry or minsters family's is rather refreshing in its honesty, typical of this forum and a great reminder why I (or any other conservative) so rarely post here anymore.

Goodbye.

You think my comparison to any job is a dismissal to what pastor's also face? Did you even read my post? And what I said reminds you of why you rarely post anymore?

Thanks for the credit, but I'm not worth it. I'm just a little peon so your guilt trip attempt won't work on me.

And looking obtuse doesn't suit you. You know perfectly well what I meant.

John Atkinson
05-06-2009, 08:22 AM
Sources polls in Focus on the Family, Ministries Today, Charisma Magazine, TNT Ministries, and other respected groups taken in 2007:

• 1,500 pastors leave the ministry permanently each month in America.
• 7,000 churches close each year in America.
• 50% of pastors’ marriages end in divorce.
• 70% of pastors continually battle depression.
• 80% of pastors and 85% of their spouses feel discouraged in their roles.
• 70% of pastors do not have a close friend, confidant, or mentor.
• 50% of pastors are so discouraged they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way to make a living.• .
• 80% of seminary graduates who enter ministry will leave the ministry within the first five years.

• 80% of pastors’ wives feel their husbands are overworked.
• 80% of the adult children of pastors sought professional help for depression.
• 90% of pastors said their training was inadequate for ministry.
• 85% of pastors report that their biggest problem is dealing with abstinent elders, deacons, worship leaders, worship teams, board members, and associate pastors.


• 90% of pastors said the hardest thing about ministry is uncooperative people.
• 70% of pastors are grossly underpaid.
• 80% of pastors’ wives feel unappreciated by the congregation.
• 90% of pastors said ministry was completely different from what they thought it would be.
• 80% of pastors’ wives feel pressured to be someone they are not and do things they are not called to do in the church.
• Over 50% of pastors’ wives feel that their husbands entering ministry was the most destructive thing to ever happen to their families.

I have a thought as to this, perhaps these statistics exist because many pastors are hired... not called. In to many cases it is a career move, or an inherited office.

When under stress people can tend to get "brutish" and lash out at the source of the strain, in some cases congregations filled with people who don't know the difference between a called minister and a career minister get hurt or scattered or downright destroyed..

When I was young guy in the Lord, 20 years ago, I imagined that "calling" and would have went charging off to Bible colege so I could go be a pastor, but had a called pastor who placed restraint on me, meanwhile there were a couple of other guys contemporary with me with the same "calling". Both ignored the pastor and went charging off, one to be an assistant paster when he was not much more than a new convert. Today he doesn't go to church, has a gambling addiction, drinkd like a fish, smokes like a chimney and seemingly has no thoughts toward God. The other one hasn't set foot in a church in 15 years or more.

Maybe the biggest part of the problem Pastors who called themselves, or sincere novices, perhaps called, but jumping the gun into a spot they are neither qualified or equipped for.

DividedThigh
05-06-2009, 09:01 AM
good pastors are like gold, rare and valuable, we have one at our church, the brutish are among us and reaking havoc as always what a shame, dt

rgcraig
05-06-2009, 10:47 AM
I have a thought as to this, perhaps these statistics exist because many pastors are hired... not called. In to many cases it is a career move, or an inherited office.

When under stress people can tend to get "brutish" and lash out at the source of the strain, in some cases congregations filled with people who don't know the difference between a called minister and a career minister get hurt or scattered or downright destroyed..

When I was young guy in the Lord, 20 years ago, I imagined that "calling" and would have went charging off to Bible colege so I could go be a pastor, but had a called pastor who placed restraint on me, meanwhile there were a couple of other guys contemporary with me with the same "calling". Both ignored the pastor and went charging off, one to be an assistant paster when he was not much more than a new convert. Today he doesn't go to church, has a gambling addiction, drinkd like a fish, smokes like a chimney and seemingly has no thoughts toward God. The other one hasn't set foot in a church in 15 years or more.

Maybe the biggest part of the problem Pastors who called themselves, or sincere novices, perhaps called, but jumping the gun into a spot they are neither qualified or equipped for.

This is a very valid point!

A true called pastor has love for his sheep.

gloryseeker
05-06-2009, 11:21 AM
I have a thought as to this, perhaps these statistics exist because many pastors are hired... not called. In to many cases it is a career move, or an inherited office.

When under stress people can tend to get "brutish" and lash out at the source of the strain, in some cases congregations filled with people who don't know the difference between a called minister and a career minister get hurt or scattered or downright destroyed..

When I was young guy in the Lord, 20 years ago, I imagined that "calling" and would have went charging off to Bible colege so I could go be a pastor, but had a called pastor who placed restraint on me, meanwhile there were a couple of other guys contemporary with me with the same "calling". Both ignored the pastor and went charging off, one to be an assistant paster when he was not much more than a new convert. Today he doesn't go to church, has a gambling addiction, drinkd like a fish, smokes like a chimney and seemingly has no thoughts toward God. The other one hasn't set foot in a church in 15 years or more.

Maybe the biggest part of the problem Pastors who called themselves, or sincere novices, perhaps called, but jumping the gun into a spot they are neither qualified or equipped for.

Let me add a thought to your thought, but first of all let me say I think your point is not only valid, but very accurate.

Having said that let's diagnose someone with a "true" call. Many after following the call then move into the corporate structure of "church" especially in denominations.

In other words, they go from church to church climbing up the spiritual corporate ladder. While I do believe that God will and has moved people from one location to another I also think that is not the norm with God.

Many local flocks are hurt because one guy comes in who has a vision for "xyz" then the next guy comes in with a vision for "cde", then someone comes who wants to pursue "abc." The flock ends up frustrated and confused while the preacher is proclaiming that God is promoting them. I could tie this back into servanthood and the heart of a true Pastor, but will resist the tempation.

Margies3
05-06-2009, 12:05 PM
Sources polls in Focus on the Family, Ministries Today, Charisma Magazine, TNT Ministries, and other respected groups taken in 2007:

• 1,500 pastors leave the ministry permanently each month in America.
• 7,000 churches close each year in America.
• 50% of pastors’ marriages end in divorce.
• 70% of pastors continually battle depression.
• 80% of pastors and 85% of their spouses feel discouraged in their roles.
• 70% of pastors do not have a close friend, confidant, or mentor.
• 50% of pastors are so discouraged they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way to make a living.• .
• 80% of seminary graduates who enter ministry will leave the ministry within the first five years.

• 80% of pastors’ wives feel their husbands are overworked.
• 80% of the adult children of pastors sought professional help for depression.
• 90% of pastors said their training was inadequate for ministry.
• 85% of pastors report that their biggest problem is dealing with abstinent elders, deacons, worship leaders, worship teams, board members, and associate pastors.


• 90% of pastors said the hardest thing about ministry is uncooperative people.
• 70% of pastors are grossly underpaid.
• 80% of pastors’ wives feel unappreciated by the congregation.
• 90% of pastors said ministry was completely different from what they thought it would be.
• 80% of pastors’ wives feel pressured to be someone they are not and do things they are not called to do in the church.
• Over 50% of pastors’ wives feel that their husbands entering ministry was the most destructive thing to ever happen to their families.

There are a number of things in this that I am very uncomfortable with. But the one that stuck out to me immediately is the statement that I underlined.........

50% of pastors are so discouraged they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way to make a living

That's like saying that 50% of pastors today are not intelligent enough to find a way to make a decent living, so they became pastors for the "easy money". Believe me, I am NOT saying that being a pastor is easy money - no way!! I know it's hard work!! But a statement like that one makes me wonder if there are people who actually believe that pastoring is the kind of job where you can get a sermon off the internet to preach on Sunday morning and you are set for the week? Do you really believe that's true?? I don't. To me, that makes the above statement pure garbage. Actually, I think it's insulting.

Timmy
05-06-2009, 12:11 PM
There are a number of things in this that I am very uncomfortable with. But the one that stuck out to me immediately is the statement that I underlined.........

50% of pastors are so discouraged they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way to make a living

That's like saying that 50% of pastors today are not intelligent enough to find a way to make a decent living, so they became pastors for the "easy money". Believe me, I am NOT saying that being a pastor is easy money - no way!! I know it's hard work!! But a statement like that one makes me wonder if there are people who actually believe that pastoring is the kind of job where you can get a sermon off the internet to preach on Sunday morning and you are set for the week? Do you really believe that's true?? I don't. To me, that makes the above statement pure garbage. Actually, I think it's insulting.

But this is a poll. Isn't that what 50% of the polled pastors claimed about themselves?

Digging4Truth
05-06-2009, 12:46 PM
I see both sides.

Before I was a pastor, I assisted, and I could tell you some horror stories.

But honestly, if you've never pastored, you can't even imagine the pressure. And I don't say that to puff us pastors up. I promise you it's not something I treasure.

The financial pressure alone is killer.

I think that what you say about the pressure is most assuredly true.

But I think that a lot of the pressure comes from the fact that the model in use today puts the bulk of ministry in the church on one calling (that of the pastor.) and not only does on calling bear the load but this is generally limited to one particular person of that calling.

I don't feel that the model being practiced today is in keeping with the original plan or execution that the apostles went forward with and therein lies the bulk of the problem.

edjen01
05-06-2009, 12:47 PM
Jeremiah: preacher-basher!

most prophets were....and are.:)

edjen01
05-06-2009, 12:52 PM
I see both sides.

Before I was a pastor, I assisted, and I could tell you some horror stories.

But honestly, if you've never pastored, you can't even imagine the pressure. And I don't say that to puff us pastors up. I promise you it's not something I treasure.

The financial pressure alone is killer.

a very real pressure.

I also believe most pastors have the pressure and frustration of working primarily with volunteers. most CEO's...store managers...healthcare workers...other positions of managment...deal with pressure and frustration concerning employees and upper-management....not volunteers who also happen to be the ones who pay thier salary....its not the same.

*AQuietPlace*
05-06-2009, 01:45 PM
I don't think that God intended for one man to carry most of the burden of leading a church. I think most pastors have a heavier load than necessary.

Digging4Truth
05-06-2009, 01:55 PM
I don't think that God intended for one man to carry most of the burden of leading a church. I think most pastors have a heavier load than necessary.

Yep...

Nina
05-06-2009, 04:30 PM
I wonder why there is never a thread about the sheep that scatter the Pastors? The statistics are amazing of the number of Pastors that give up because they have no support, no one who will work toward the vision, people bickering over where the piano sits, or some other carnal aspect of the carnal Christians life?


Glory Seeker,

Where in the Bible do You read about sheep scattering Pastors?

Maybe that's why there is never a thread about it.

Just a thought,
Nina

gloryseeker
05-06-2009, 05:11 PM
Glory Seeker,

Where in the Bible do You read about sheep scattering Pastors?

Maybe that's why there is never a thread about it.

Just a thought,
Nina

My comment wasn't based on scripture, but on reality. Most of the threads/opinions on this forum are not biblically based.

Falla39
05-06-2009, 10:19 PM
Jeremiah 23 (King James Version)

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

jaxfam6
05-06-2009, 11:05 PM
I wonder why there is never a thread about the sheep that scatter the Pastors? The statistics are amazing of the number of Pastors that give up because they have no support, no one who will work toward the vision, people bickering over where the piano sits, or some other carnal aspect of the carnal Christians life?

I have somewhat to say to that. A mature adult Christian can only come about by some mature adult teaching. I know there are some that will never mature, just like in the natural, but most general a child grows up to be exactly what the parent teaches it to become. If the pastor wants mature 'saints' that will support and and work toward the vision the pastor needs to train them that way. If he is carnal and bickers about everything that is exactly what they will do. There is an old saying about monkey see monkey do. I have seen many churches where what you are talking about takes place but when you watch the pastor you can usually find the reason.
I know it is not the case in all instances but for the most part.

jaxfam6
05-06-2009, 11:08 PM
I see both sides.

Before I was a pastor, I assisted, and I could tell you some horror stories.

But honestly, if you've never pastored, you can't even imagine the pressure. And I don't say that to puff us pastors up. I promise you it's not something I treasure.

The financial pressure alone is killer.

I would say that a pastor's family knows the issues and pressures just as much as the pastor does.

edjen01
05-07-2009, 10:09 AM
I have somewhat to say to that. A mature adult Christian can only come about by some mature adult teaching. I know there are some that will never mature, just like in the natural, but most general a child grows up to be exactly what the parent teaches it to become. If the pastor wants mature 'saints' that will support and and work toward the vision the pastor needs to train them that way. If he is carnal and bickers about everything that is exactly what they will do. There is an old saying about monkey see monkey do. I have seen many churches where what you are talking about takes place but when you watch the pastor you can usually find the reason.
I know it is not the case in all instances but for the most part.

teaching does not equal learning....i don't believe a believers maturaty is tied directly to the pastors...or pastors teachings.

"train them that way"....are we talking about dogs, seals, monkeys, or people? not sure where in the book that pastors are called trainers.

gloryseeker
05-07-2009, 10:25 AM
teaching does not equal learning....i don't believe a believers maturaty is tied directly to the pastors...or pastors teachings.

"train them that way"....are we talking about dogs, seals, monkeys, or people? not sure where in the book that pastors are called trainers.

Well you would have to eliminate Ephesians 4 to uphold this position...however, you said "directly tied" so I am assuming you are eluding to the receivers decision to apply what is taught which I would agree with. However, what has been deemed as the "five-fold" has been given to the Body for maturity therefore the maturity has a direct connection with the "five-fold"

gloryseeker
05-07-2009, 10:27 AM
I have somewhat to say to that. A mature adult Christian can only come about by some mature adult teaching. I know there are some that will never mature, just like in the natural, but most general a child grows up to be exactly what the parent teaches it to become. If the pastor wants mature 'saints' that will support and and work toward the vision the pastor needs to train them that way. If he is carnal and bickers about everything that is exactly what they will do. There is an old saying about monkey see monkey do. I have seen many churches where what you are talking about takes place but when you watch the pastor you can usually find the reason.
I know it is not the case in all instances but for the most part.

I agree with that, but I think what happens is that most Pastors (even the God called ones) don't know how to "train." They know how to preach a message, but somehow lose sight of the fact that they have the ability to "train" while they are preaching and there is a breakdown in the process along the way.

edjen01
05-07-2009, 10:34 AM
Well you would have to eliminate Ephesians 4 to uphold this position...however, you said "directly tied" so I am assuming you are eluding to the receivers decision to apply what is taught which I would agree with. However, what has been deemed as the "five-fold" has been given to the Body for maturity therefore the maturity has a direct connection with the "five-fold"

as an educator i have learned that good teaching does not equal good learning. a mature pastor does not produce mature believers....believers who study, learn, and continue to grow...grow into maturity. if this were not true then believers who had inmature pastors could not grow in maturity...no matter what they did.

i do believe in the work of the ministry....but I do not believe that a believers maturity is regulated by what thier pastor chooses to be or not be.

jaxfam6
05-07-2009, 06:19 PM
teaching does not equal learning....i don't believe a believers maturaty is tied directly to the pastors...or pastors teachings.

"train them that way"....are we talking about dogs, seals, monkeys, or people? not sure where in the book that pastors are called trainers.

"Train up a child..." that is biblical

I agree that not all persons are going to take everything taught to them but I think the reasoning stands pat for most. You want someone to learn something you teach them and train them.

jaxfam6
05-07-2009, 06:20 PM
I agree with that, but I think what happens is that most Pastors (even the God called ones) don't know how to "train." They know how to preach a message, but somehow lose sight of the fact that they have the ability to "train" while they are preaching and there is a breakdown in the process along the way.

that could be true.

jaxfam6
05-07-2009, 06:28 PM
as an educator i have learned that good teaching does not equal good learning. a mature pastor does not produce mature believers....believers who study, learn, and continue to grow...grow into maturity. if this were not true then believers who had inmature pastors could not grow in maturity...no matter what they did.

i do believe in the work of the ministry....but I do not believe that a believers maturity is regulated by what thier pastor chooses to be or not be.

Then as an educator you should also know that it works both ways. A child can not teach itself otherwise we would not need people like yourself. I would say there should not have to be a direct correlation between a teachers maturity and the maturity of the student but to many times I have seen it. This spiritual birthing is very much like natural. In the natural traits are passed on. Well in the spiritual traits get passed on also. Should my maturity level be based on what my pastor's maturity level is? No, but often times it is. Thankfully I have had mature teachers. Just like abuse. In a family where the father abuses his wife and kids, to often the kids abuse their wives and kids when they have them. Should they? No but as we all know to often they do.

JamDat
05-07-2009, 09:29 PM
These scriptures should be a warning to all those who try to "lord over" God's heritage and thus end up destroying and/or scattering sheep.

The attitude of "if they don't like it, they can leave" is rampant these days. It should not be found among pastors.

Now that'll preach. You go LadyRev! :thumbsup

gloryseeker
05-07-2009, 10:18 PM
Then as an educator you should also know that it works both ways. A child can not teach itself otherwise we would not need people like yourself. I would say there should not have to be a direct correlation between a teachers maturity and the maturity of the student but to many times I have seen it. This spiritual birthing is very much like natural. In the natural traits are passed on. Well in the spiritual traits get passed on also. Should my maturity level be based on what my pastor's maturity level is? No, but often times it is. Thankfully I have had mature teachers. Just like abuse. In a family where the father abuses his wife and kids, to often the kids abuse their wives and kids when they have them. Should they? No but as we all know to often they do.

Well said

EA
05-07-2009, 10:23 PM
This thread has been good, but I will say many of you will never know the absolute hurt that can be caused by careless words spoken by parishioners.

I find it horribly sad that parsihioners can openly defy, castigate and tear down pastors without thinking twice, but if a pastor issues any type of correction he or she is considered "brutish."

The spirit of Jezebel openly defies, and seeks to destroy the man of God at every opportunity. I think this happens because some people transfer all of their hurts and anger toward God on the man of God.

I have seen my kids and wife absolutely crushed by the hateful words of careless, mean-spirited saints. This, after my kids and wife have went without to build a church those same folks can come to and criticize. But, on the other hand, I have seen other saints defend my family against idiots.

Most people are kind and respectful. It's just the folks that live to breed contention that can make life truly miserable for a pastor.

AFF is great about pointing our the imperfections of pastors, while demanding they be perfect in every way. Truth is, none of us are perfect, and pastors will make mistakes. Hopefully, those pastors will receive the same measure of mercy the saints have come to expect.

I think it's very sad when a church devolves into a war between pulpit and pew. Leaves me wondering why the doors even stay open.

God is not pleased.

freeatlast
05-08-2009, 06:25 AM
This thread has been good, but I will say many of you will never know the absolute hurt that can be caused by careless words spoken by parishioners.

I find it horribly sad that parsihioners can openly defy, castigate and tear down pastors without thinking twice, but if a pastor issues any type of correction he or she is considered "brutish."

The spirit of Jezebel openly defies, and seeks to destroy the man of God at every opportunity. I think this happens because some people transfer all of their hurts and anger toward God on the man of God.

I have seen my kids and wife absolutely crushed by the hateful words of careless, mean-spirited saints. This, after my kids and wife have went without to build a church those same folks can come to and criticize. But, on the other hand, I have seen other saints defend my family against idiots.

Most people are kind and respectful. It's just the folks that live to breed contention that can make life truly miserable for a pastor.

AFF is great about pointing our the imperfections of pastors, while demanding they be perfect in every way. Truth is, none of us are perfect, and pastors will make mistakes. Hopefully, those pastors will receive the same measure of mercy the saints have come to expect.

I think it's very sad when a church devolves into a war between pulpit and pew. Leaves me wondering why the doors even stay open.

God is not pleased.

Good post Ed.

gloryseeker
05-08-2009, 09:14 AM
This thread has been good, but I will say many of you will never know the absolute hurt that can be caused by careless words spoken by parishioners.

I find it horribly sad that parsihioners can openly defy, castigate and tear down pastors without thinking twice, but if a pastor issues any type of correction he or she is considered "brutish."

The spirit of Jezebel openly defies, and seeks to destroy the man of God at every opportunity. I think this happens because some people transfer all of their hurts and anger toward God on the man of God.

I have seen my kids and wife absolutely crushed by the hateful words of careless, mean-spirited saints. This, after my kids and wife have went without to build a church those same folks can come to and criticize. But, on the other hand, I have seen other saints defend my family against idiots.

Most people are kind and respectful. It's just the folks that live to breed contention that can make life truly miserable for a pastor.

AFF is great about pointing our the imperfections of pastors, while demanding they be perfect in every way. Truth is, none of us are perfect, and pastors will make mistakes. Hopefully, those pastors will receive the same measure of mercy the saints have come to expect.

I think it's very sad when a church devolves into a war between pulpit and pew. Leaves me wondering why the doors even stay open.

God is not pleased.

Good post! It reminds me of David at Ziklag. When the enemy attacked the people turned against their leader. It is human nature. What these men of David didn't get is that not only was David not the problem, but in reality he held the keys to the solution. Because he was willing to encourage himself in the Lord and seek out the Lord they recovered all plus the spoils.

Withdrawn
05-08-2009, 09:39 AM
Good post! It reminds me of David at Ziklag. When the enemy attacked the people turned against their leader. It is human nature. What these men of David didn't get is that not only was David not the problem, but in reality he held the keys to the solution. Because he was willing to encourage himself in the Lord and seek out the Lord they recovered all plus the spoils.
Just curious, and referring back to D4T's point, where do we find any scriptural indication that the pastor is our leader?

I believe most of these problems we see in our churches (and yes... other denoms as well) that end up with a burned out, discouraged pastor or an abused and scattered flock, is due to the notion that the church organization is a one man show. You have to do an awful lot of "reading into..." to come to a conclusion from Scripture that that pastor is the "authority over you" or even the leader of any congregation. We talk a good talk about "five-fold ministry," but when it comes down to it we have a one-size fits all model of ministry. There may be associate or supportive assistant pastors, but it's still usually only one man calling the shots at the end of the day.

The comparison to David is important, in my opinion. Because we really do feel like the pastor is our leader. But the Bible says that JESUS is the head of His church. And He gave the church gifts of ministry at five different levels (areas of expertise, really). Centuries of tradition have picked away at the others and left us with one man standing at the center... like a king... our vicar. We even call him "the man of God."

The reason that pastors get frustrated, discouraged, burned out, overwhelmed (...etc.) is because they assume duties and responsiblities that were never intended for the man with a calling to be a pastor (shepherd, nurturer, protector, encourager). What I see in scripture is that any one congregation should have several who are called to be pastors - and it's a ministry, not an office. The problem with brutish pastors or abusive congregations, IMO, stems from the headship of the church pointing to a flawed man and not to Jesus where it should be.

Now... go ahead and let me have it. I know I got it coming. :winkgrin

The Lemon
05-08-2009, 09:47 AM
This is a good thread with alot of good points. Sometimes, I think, problems arise out of expectation. Expectation from the sheep, and from the pastor. We tend to be very spoiled in America on many levels, and come to expect that life is all about "us". You know, "Us four, and no more"

To me there are two different types of expectation, expressed and implied. Sometimes expectations are not "expressed" clearly on both sides, then it leaves the door open for implication, which is basically a form of assumption.....and well, assuming to much leads to pie in the sky mentality. Some sheep expect the Pastor to be a mindreader, God, Superman - and thats not to mention the expectation they may have of his wife and children (that is another thread).

On the flip side, the pastor, if not careful, can have unrealistic expectations of the flock he oversees as well. I remember having a discussion with my pastor, where I had expressed what I had seen at another church that I assisted in. I told him that the leadership always filled the calendar with programs and things, and that many in the church would not voluntreer or show up. My solution.....If the church can't/won't support something......you just don't do that something. Just that simple.

Too many pastors are burdened down, not because there is no help, but because they try to do to much knowing there is no help, bur ASSUMING, people will come on board if its jotted down at a meeting. Too much of that, and he gets burned out, frustrated, and perhaps becomes part of the statistics on an earlier post.

My personal opinion is that there are alot of things that have been overlooked in terms of church structure, and how a church should operate. The pressures of finances are real, i have seen that destroy folks, but I wonder and also believe that it should not / does not, need to be this way. I don't want to derail this post, but the necessity of a building, all the platform equipment, and all the price tags that go with that are suspect to a degree to me. We have, in the USA, created a climate of expectation that "This is what a Church is/does" and we are, in large part, suffering for the expectation......no one said we could not change the expectation, but I wonder is many really want to??

Digging4Truth
05-08-2009, 10:15 AM
This is a good thread with alot of good points. Sometimes, I think, problems arise out of expectation. Expectation from the sheep, and from the pastor. We tend to be very spoiled in America on many levels, and come to expect that life is all about "us". You know, "Us four, and no more"

To me there are two different types of expectation, expressed and implied. Sometimes expectations are not "expressed" clearly on both sides, then it leaves the door open for implication, which is basically a form of assumption.....and well, assuming to much leads to pie in the sky mentality. Some sheep expect the Pastor to be a mindreader, God, Superman - and thats not to mention the expectation they may have of his wife and children (that is another thread).

On the flip side, the pastor, if not careful, can have unrealistic expectations of the flock he oversees as well. I remember having a discussion with my pastor, where I had expressed what I had seen at another church that I assisted in. I told him that the leadership always filled the calendar with programs and things, and that many in the church would not voluntreer or show up. My solution.....If the church can't/won't support something......you just don't do that something. Just that simple.

Too many pastors are burdened down, not because there is no help, but because they try to do to much knowing there is no help, bur ASSUMING, people will come on board if its jotted down at a meeting. Too much of that, and he gets burned out, frustrated, and perhaps becomes part of the statistics on an earlier post.

My personal opinion is that there are alot of things that have been overlooked in terms of church structure, and how a church should operate. The pressures of finances are real, i have seen that destroy folks, but I wonder and also believe that it should not / does not, need to be this way. I don't want to derail this post, but the necessity of a building, all the platform equipment, and all the price tags that go with that are suspect to a degree to me. We have, in the USA, created a climate of expectation that "This is what a Church is/does" and we are, in large part, suffering for the expectation......no one said we could not change the expectation, but I wonder is many really want to??

Indeed... Pastors get burned out etc because they are taking the entire load intended for the entire ministry to take on.

Not only should the load be broken up between Apostles, Prophetc, Evangelists, Pastors & Teachers but there should be multiple people in each ministry operating within the body.

The model exhausts pastors and frustrates others.

edjen01
05-08-2009, 10:31 AM
"Train up a child..." that is biblical

I agree that not all persons are going to take everything taught to them but I think the reasoning stands pat for most. You want someone to learn something you teach them and train them.

since we are talking about spiritual and not natural...i do not think this verse applies here....take it in its proper context.

Fiyahstarter
05-08-2009, 10:46 AM
Indeed... Pastors get burned out etc because they are taking the entire load intended for the entire ministry to take on.

Not only should the load be broken up between Apostles, Prophetc, Evangelists, Pastors & Teachers but there should be multiple people in each ministry operating within the body.

The model exhausts pastors and frustrates others.

AMEN!

edjen01
05-08-2009, 10:47 AM
Then as an educator you should also know that it works both ways. A child can not teach itself otherwise we would not need people like yourself. I would say there should not have to be a direct correlation between a teachers maturity and the maturity of the student but to many times I have seen it. This spiritual birthing is very much like natural. In the natural traits are passed on. Well in the spiritual traits get passed on also. Should my maturity level be based on what my pastor's maturity level is? No, but often times it is. Thankfully I have had mature teachers. Just like abuse. In a family where the father abuses his wife and kids, to often the kids abuse their wives and kids when they have them. Should they? No but as we all know to often they do.

not sure if you are a man or a woman....or if you have witnessed an actual birth...they NOT the same.

to say that there are spiritual genetics is crazy. where does this come from? are you getting this from Paul's statement to Timothy?...if so...then study that out a little more...Paul is not saying that spiritual traits are passed on like physical DNA.

i find your comparison to abusive parents to be disgusting. abuse is NOT passed on in your DNA. that fact that someone grows up in an abusive home does not make them become an abuser...no more than growing up in a church with a mature pastor makes a person a mature believer...going to a church where the pastor is dishonest does not make me cheat on my taxes.

we are responsilible for our own actions....for our own salvation....and for our own maturity. I do believe that if we surround ourselves with mature people they can help us....but ultimately it is up to us...no one else.

Falla39
05-08-2009, 11:55 AM
Jeremiah 23 (King James Version)

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

It looks like the LORD GOD is taking it personally! MY people, my pasture,
my flock. We are His people, the sheep of HIS pasture.

Psalms100:3,
Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

acjcpastor
05-08-2009, 01:48 PM
On the flip side, the pastor, if not careful, can have unrealistic expectations of the flock he oversees as well. I remember having a discussion with my pastor, where I had expressed what I had seen at another church that I assisted in. I told him that the leadership always filled the calendar with programs and things, and that many in the church would not voluntreer or show up. My solution.....If the church can't/won't support something......you just don't do that something. Just that simple.

AMEN and AMEN!

First allow me to qualify my statements by saying that I’ve been Spirit Filled for almost 40 years and in ministry for over 26 years. I’ve served the Lord under a variety of pastors with a wide variety of pastoring styles. No, I’m not a church hopper. I’ve just been faithful wherever the Lord placed me, even when the pastor turned out to be “brutish.” That man kept us hopping 24/7. We were never good enough and we couldn’t do anything that wasn’t church related without being blasted for sinning. He controlled who we could and could not fellowship. He instituted a 15% “tithe” to support all of the churches endeavors. I could go on and on. Suffice it to say that that period of my life almost destroyed my marriage and my walk with God. However, I gained a great deal of insight during those days that helps make me a better pastor today. I can also say that I understand how this good man fell into this trap. He wasn’t always that way. It happened over a span of time. I think it had a lot to do with kingdom building and that’s kingdom with a small k. First and foremost the man of God must always remember it’s His Kingdom they are working for, not their kingdom.

Whenever I get frustrated with people and pastoring, the Lord reminds me that it is not about me, it’s about Him. Sure, I get frustrated when people are not faithful to church or they seem to work against the church. But as their pastor, I first have to ask myself if I’ve given them reason to rebel. Are they rebelling against me or my leadership? Have I given them good reason to withdraw themselves from our fellowship? If I’ve driven them off, I have to be accountable to God for that. Even a pastor has to repent and I’ll be honest enough to say that I’ve had to work to correct situations that I created before. However, usually these people are not rebelling against their pastor. I need to realize this is a spiritual battle they are fighting and they will respond to encouragement, compassion and hope better than a harsh rebuke. How many people have been driven away by a mad preacher yelling rebukes and humiliating them from the pulpit? I never want to be one of hose type preachers. Rebuke and correction will cause either repentance or rebellion. I believe if one is lead by the Spirit, they will minister in the correct spirit and bring about repentance.

Like I said, I’ve served under a brutish pastor but I’ve also served under pastors who were more realistic. The “realist” pastor understands that people have limitations. People can’t work 2 jobs to make ends meet and attend 4 or 5 church functions a week. People need to grow and mature at their own pace. Handing them a list of do’s and don’ts and dressing them up in an apostolic uniform will not prepare them for the battles they face this side of glory. The realist knows you can’t drive sheep, you have to lead them. You have to be there for them and care for them continually. The flock needs to know the shepherd is there for the long haul. They need to know the pastor cares about them more than just a means to a paycheck from their tithes.

The statistic that 50% of pastors are so discouraged they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way to make a living is sad. Maybe this is best discussed in another forum but I see this as a big problem that needs to be addressed with our apostolic bible schools. I believe it is biblical to have job skills besides preaching and teaching, especially in the day and age we live in. However, our young men and women spend 4 or more years for a diploma with few (if any) college credits that are recognized by other institutions. They may know homiletics and theology but the only jobs available to them, outside the pulpit, pay minimum wage. It’s kind of hard to start a church and family on that kind of income.

While the previous pastor here was “full time,” he had the skills from his military days to work a secular job and I remember times in the churches history when he used those skills to survive. While I could be a full time pastor today, I choose to keep a secular job for several reason:
1st, I believe God gave me the skills and this job for a reason.
2nd, the church is able to give abundantly to missions because my physical needs are already being met.
3rd, it keeps me in tune with what the church members are going through, getting up and facing a harsh work environment and a wicked society on a daily bases.

I’ve had fellow ministers make snide comments about my being “bi-vocational” as if I was not trusting God enough to meet all of my needs. That is their problem. With fewer than 80 on a Sunday morning, we are not a large congregation. However, we’ve paid off our church mortgage, we are totally debt free and we are able to give thousands to missions each year. Like I said, I believe God provided my secular employment for a reason and I thank Him for all of the blessings it brings to the church and to my family.

gloryseeker
05-08-2009, 01:55 PM
not sure if you are a man or a woman....or if you have witnessed an actual birth...they NOT the same.

to say that there are spiritual genetics is crazy. where does this come from? are you getting this from Paul's statement to Timothy?...if so...then study that out a little more...Paul is not saying that spiritual traits are passed on like physical DNA.

i find your comparison to abusive parents to be disgusting. abuse is NOT passed on in your DNA. that fact that someone grows up in an abusive home does not make them become an abuser...no more than growing up in a church with a mature pastor makes a person a mature believer...going to a church where the pastor is dishonest does not make me cheat on my taxes.

we are responsilible for our own actions....for our own salvation....and for our own maturity. I do believe that if we surround ourselves with mature people they can help us....but ultimately it is up to us...no one else.

It appears that you live in a theoretical world as statistics will point out that these character traits are passed on. However, it is not DNA coded it is spiritually coded. When a person grows up in a particular environment they become familiar with it's workings.

gloryseeker
05-08-2009, 02:02 PM
Indeed... Pastors get burned out etc because they are taking the entire load intended for the entire ministry to take on.

Actually they are burned out because they are doing it in their strength. In reality there is no such thing as burn out when you are doing what God calls you to do. It is only when "we" try to do what God has called us to do that we burn out because we are in the flesh.

Not only should the load be broken up between Apostles, Prophetc, Evangelists, Pastors & Teachers but there should be multiple people in each ministry operating within the body.

The model exhausts pastors and frustrates others.

Your load shouldn't be broken up to anyone. Do what God has called you to do and do it in His strength.

EA
05-08-2009, 02:32 PM
This is a good thread with alot of good points. Sometimes, I think, problems arise out of expectation. Expectation from the sheep, and from the pastor. We tend to be very spoiled in America on many levels, and come to expect that life is all about "us". You know, "Us four, and no more"

To me there are two different types of expectation, expressed and implied. Sometimes expectations are not "expressed" clearly on both sides, then it leaves the door open for implication, which is basically a form of assumption.....and well, assuming to much leads to pie in the sky mentality. Some sheep expect the Pastor to be a mindreader, God, Superman - and thats not to mention the expectation they may have of his wife and children (that is another thread).

On the flip side, the pastor, if not careful, can have unrealistic expectations of the flock he oversees as well. I remember having a discussion with my pastor, where I had expressed what I had seen at another church that I assisted in. I told him that the leadership always filled the calendar with programs and things, and that many in the church would not voluntreer or show up. My solution.....If the church can't/won't support something......you just don't do that something. Just that simple.

Too many pastors are burdened down, not because there is no help, but because they try to do to much knowing there is no help, bur ASSUMING, people will come on board if its jotted down at a meeting. Too much of that, and he gets burned out, frustrated, and perhaps becomes part of the statistics on an earlier post.

My personal opinion is that there are alot of things that have been overlooked in terms of church structure, and how a church should operate. The pressures of finances are real, i have seen that destroy folks, but I wonder and also believe that it should not / does not, need to be this way. I don't want to derail this post, but the necessity of a building, all the platform equipment, and all the price tags that go with that are suspect to a degree to me. We have, in the USA, created a climate of expectation that "This is what a Church is/does" and we are, in large part, suffering for the expectation......no one said we could not change the expectation, but I wonder is many really want to??


This is an incredible post, and I agree 100% with everything in it.

In regard to paragraph three...

There is a real lack of help in most churches.

There are some things, in every church, that must be done.

MOST pastors do not want to do all of those things themselves, but they end up doing everything no one else is willing to do. And many people aren't willing to do ANYTHING.

I also think a general disdain for small churches hurts as well. All of the talent gravitates towards the large church setting. This feeds haves and have nots, in a big way.

EA
05-08-2009, 02:33 PM
Actually they are burned out because they are doing it in their strength. In reality there is no such thing as burn out when you are doing what God calls you to do. It is only when "we" try to do what God has called us to do that we burn out because we are in the flesh.



Your load shouldn't be broken up to anyone. Do what God has called you to do and do it in His strength.

THis post is pure baloney!

Elijah was doing what God called him to do and suffered a mental breakdown.

edjen01
05-08-2009, 03:18 PM
It appears that you live in a theoretical world as statistics will point out that these character traits are passed on. However, it is not DNA coded it is spiritually coded. When a person grows up in a particular environment they become familiar with it's workings.

we can agree to disagree.

the problem with statistics...is that they can be shaped to support whatever the agenda is. i do not doubt that people can learn bad/good habits from others...including parents and pastors....but to say that it is spiritually coded into them...there is no science or Bible to support this.

jaxfam6
05-08-2009, 05:27 PM
since we are talking about spiritual and not natural...i do not think this verse applies here....take it in its proper context.

It is taken in proper context. The point is, things in the spiritual reflect things in the natural.

and/or vice versa

jaxfam6
05-08-2009, 05:36 PM
This is an incredible post, and I agree 100% with everything in it.

In regard to paragraph three...

There is a real lack of help in most churches.

There are some things, in every church, that must be done.

MOST pastors do not want to do all of those things themselves, but they end up doing everything no one else is willing to do. And many people aren't willing to do ANYTHING.

I also think a general disdain for small churches hurts as well. All of the talent gravitates towards the large church setting. This feeds haves and have nots, in a big way.

I have heard it in other churches. I have even complained that sometimes our leaders try to do to much and we need to get more of the saints involved in planning and doing. Luckily though the churches we have attended have had, in all reality, plenty of helpers. Yes there are always more leaders (or at least self perceived leaders) who always know better than anyone else how things should be done but not willing to do it or help do it. Yet I can not complain about the churches we have been at not having enough help. There has always been people available to work. I told our leadership recently that I would prefer to NOT be part of the leadership and just be available to help anywhere we are needed.

Margies3
05-08-2009, 05:45 PM
acjcpastor, I want to come to your church. You sound like you have the true heart of a pastor.

gloryseeker
05-08-2009, 06:09 PM
THis post is pure baloney!

Elijah was doing what God called him to do and suffered a mental breakdown.

Poor example...Elijah was not filled with the Spirit. He was under a natural covenant that lived under a legal system. You are better versed than this EA...

Why not use the Apostle Paul as an example who endured far more than any of us have ever endured yet did not experience burn out.

Your baloney is not made with real meat :ursofunny

edjen01
05-08-2009, 10:26 PM
It is taken in proper context. The point is, things in the spiritual reflect things in the natural.

and/or vice versa

which is it? does the natural reflect the spiritual...or the spiritual the natural? both can't be the source.