Will those that leave standards be lost?

[Charlie Brown]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?

[Ferd]

some are. most arent.

[Garfield]

Absolutely. Without a doubt. Definitely. Uhhhhhh. What was the question again?

[Ronzo]

Please tell me the conversation at AFF isn't going to be dominated by standards threads like FCF was?



:beatdeadhorse





lol

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Please tell me the conversation at AFF isn't going to be dominated by standards threads like FCF was?



:beatdeadhorse





lol

The Bash UPC gig is getting old already too. :ranting

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?

I don't know what other think, but they are DEVOTIONS to me.

[Ronzo]

The Bash UPC gig is getting old already too. :ranting
I'm not in the UPC and I agree wholeheartedly.


Picking scabs isn't the way to keep a conversation going.

[Whole Hearted]

Yes they are.

[Michael Phelps]

Please tell me the conversation at AFF isn't going to be dominated by standards threads like FCF was?



:beatdeadhorse





lol


Dude, what did you expect? Hehehe............:ranting

[Pastor Keith]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?

Let's answer it with a question, when one keeps moral standards are they saved?

[Michael Phelps]

Yes they are.

No, they're not.

Just balancing you out, Bro! We just wasted our votes, lol.

[Charlie Brown]

I'm not in the UPC and I agree wholeheartedly.


Picking scabs isn't the way to keep a conversation going.

I have just been officailly called a scab picker!!!!!!

ADMIN!!!! ADMIN!!!!!





:killinme

[rgcraig]

Let's answer it with a question, when one keeps moral standards are they saved?

Charlie,

I like this response best!

[Ron]

In answer to the question "Will those that leave Standards be lost?'

Answer: "They just might if they keep starting threads on it!":D


Boy! Isn't there another subject we can beat to death?:tease

[Charlie Brown]

Let's answer it with a question, when one keeps moral standards are they saved?

Charlie,

I like this response best!

Do moral standards equate to salvation?? No, the muslims dress as modest as can be, and they are lost.

But do the lack of moral standards equate to the lack of salvation??

[LaVonne]

The Bash UPC gig is getting old already too. :ranting

:groan

[Malvaro]

someone please shoot me already.... :drawguns Coop didn't even have to start this thread....

Lord, please make this stop :praying

[rgcraig]

Do moral standards equate to salvation?? No, the muslims dress as modest as can be, and they are lost.

But do the lack of moral standards equate to the lack of salvation??

I believe that is the WHOLE point.

[Charlie Brown]

someone please shoot me already.... :drawguns Coop didn't even have to start this thread....

Lord, please make this stop :praying

Come on now Brother, just encouraging conversation here. You guys are the ones that keep bumping it. I am just trying to increase my post count for the day. :killinme

[Malvaro]

if i apologize ahead of time.... can i say what i'd like to say? :D hehehe

[Charlie Brown]

I believe that is the WHOLE point.

The question asked by Keith was...


Let's answer it with a question, when one keeps moral standards are they saved?

So is Keith implying that those that leave standards are lost? Or is Keith trying to differentiate between moral and civil standards?

[Charlie Brown]

if i apologize ahead of time.... can i say what i'd like to say? :D hehehe

Go ahead.....let it all out :killinme

[daddyof2]

Yes they are.

Which standards are we talking about...or are you talking about? :beatdeadhorse

[rgcraig]

The question asked by Keith was...



So is Keith implying that those that leave standards are lost? Or is Keith trying to differentiate between moral and civil standards?

I think Keith can speak for himself, but what I think is standards don't save you anymore than the lack of them cause you to be lost.

Being filled with God's spirit and living a clean and holy (moral) life is what saves you.

[Ronzo]

:banghead :grumpy :itsover :hurtyou

[Charlie Brown]

I think Keith can speak for himself, but what I think is standards don't save you anymore than the lack of them cause you to be lost.

Being filled with God's spirit and living a clean and holy (moral) life is what saves you.

Don't get made at me here, but if the lack of moral standards will NOT cause me to be lost, why then do I have to live a Holy (moral) life to be saved??





:heeheehee

[COOPER]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?
Uh oh!
I am glad I am not the only one thats gonna get picked on.:heeheehee

[drummerboy_dave]

:killinme After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?:beatdeadhorse

[Charlie Brown]

Uh oh!
I am glad I am not the only one thats gonna get picked on.:heeheehee


Just trying to have a little conversation and put in my :2cents worth.

[rgcraig]

Don't get mad at me here, but if the lack of moral standards will NOT cause me to be lost, why then do I have to live a Holy (moral) life to be saved??





:heeheeheeYou're messing with the words.......standards and living a holy/ moral life are two different things.

[Charlie Brown]

You're messing with the words.......standards and being moral are two different things.

Look at Keiths words, that you amened, again.


Let's answer it with a question, when one keeps moral standards are they saved?



Now Keith has stated that there are moral standards. I am not sure what he means. I am assuming he means living a good clean life, but you know what happens when you assume. The problem is, when he answered a question with a question, he didn't leave us the direction he was going. Therefore I can answer his question as it is written both ways. I know folks that live a good clean moral life that are not christians, and I know folks that do the same that are saved.

[Ferd]

I'm not in the UPC and I agree wholeheartedly.


Picking scabs isn't the way to keep a conversation going.

giggle. OF but not in.... is more like it.


Standards are PERSONAL to me. nobody gets to work out my salvation but me.

Nor do I try to work out others salvation.

[rgcraig]

Look at Keiths words, that you amened, again.






Now Keith has stated that there are moral standards. I am not sure what he means. I am assuming he means living a good clean life, but you know what happens when you assume. The problem is, when he answered a question with a question, he didn't leave us the direction he was going. Therefore I can answer his question as it is written both ways. I know folks that live a good clean moral life that are not christians, and I know folks that do the same that are saved.
Well, I believe I know what Keith meant, but let's wait on him.

[Charlie Brown]

Well, I believe I know what Keith meant, but let's wait on him.

HAHAHAHA!!!!



I think I will go for a while before mom gets upset and puts me in the crying room! :killinme

[rgcraig]

HAHAHAHA!!!!



I think I will go for a while before mom gets upset and puts me in the crying room! :killinme
Or send Lucy after you!

[Arphaxad]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?

Flags are not heaven or hell issues.:surrender

[Carpenter]

Dude, what did you expect? Hehehe............:ranting

:killinme :killinme :killinme

I saw your avitar and at first glance, I said, "HEY, I know that guy..."

Then I realized who it was...


...sometimes I am not the sharpest pencil in the box. :D

[Sister Truth Seeker]

:popcorn2 Will anyone be saved?????


As sand flows through the hour glass...................



so are the days of our lives.......



People People....:donuts

[Pastor Keith]

Do moral standards equate to salvation?? No, the muslims dress as modest as can be, and they are lost.

But do the lack of moral standards equate to the lack of salvation??

Let me define this further, I do not believe that we are saved by keeping Biblical standards, nor do I believe that by not keeping standards is one necessarily lost. Faith is what saves us period, now in the process of walking in faith (I define faith as Hearing God+obedience=Faith) one will do and not do certain things, but doing or not doing those things without faith does not matter at all period.

As the old addage says, we must not get the cart before the horse. The greater question is does the absence of faith cause one to be lost? YES it does, and the scripture is clear that one can be moral, have standards even Biblical ones, and still be lost. Hell is full of such folks.

[ManOfWord]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?


If you really want to get "into" it, then you're going to have to define what standards in particular you are referring to regarding heaven and hell issues. Probably most understand here that have an apostolic history, but not everyone does. So which ones are you referring to?

[Barb]

I know many people who for what ever reasons no longer adhere to the same princples of hair and dress and such as myself.

I know of NONE who have left standards...as in they are standardless...

All who go by the Name of the Lord have standards that we live by... :nod

[Steadfast]

I'm not in the UPC and I agree wholeheartedly.


Picking scabs isn't the way to keep a conversation going.

Brother,

I thought you were Bro. J's Church?

[Garfield]

Brother,

I thought you were Bro. J's Church?



Doesn't make any difference whose church he attends. Didn't you know? Haven't you heard? The manual only applies to the licensed ministry and saints aren't really members of the UPC.

[ManOfWord]

Doesn't make any difference whose church he attends. Didn't you know? Haven't you heard? The manual only applies to the licensed ministry and saints aren't really members of the UPC.

So then, what's your point? What are you trying to define? C'mon, out with it! :D

[freeatlast]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?


I'll ask a differnent question than the thread title

Will those that IMPOSE standards be lost?

One preacher said he'd prefer to error on the side of saftey. He said if I can get to heaven with a wedding ring on, well surely i can make iit in without one.

NO ! If you impose FASE doctrine on people as a test of salvation or fellowship and you are wrong on your interpretation, you have imposed hair-esy :heeheehee and you will answer for that.

Those who insisted on putting a yoke on new christians (circumsicion for example) Paul told they were wrongf in this. If Judaizers persited in enforcing their "standards" do you think God was going to just give a free pass.

People will be lost over standards YES ! mainly those that impose false ones.

JMHO :ty

[Garfield]

I'll ask a differnent question than the thread title

Will those that IMPOSE standards be lost?

One preacher said he'd prefer to error on the side of saftey. He said if I can get to heaven with a wedding ring on, well surely i can make iit in without one.

NO ! If you impose FASE doctrine on people as a test of salvation or fellowship and you are wrong on your interpretation, you have imposed hair-esy :heeheehee and you will answer for that.

Those who insisted on putting a yoke on new christians (circumsicion for example) Paul told they were wrongf in this. If Judaizers persited in enforcing their "standards" do you think God was going to just give a free pass.

People will be lost over standards YES ! mainly those that impose false ones.

JMHO :ty

So preaching against a wedding ring is hersy, false doctrine and a yoke. Thanks for that little tidbit.

[ManOfWord]

I'll ask a differnent question than the thread title

Will those that IMPOSE standards be lost?

One preacher said he'd prefer to error on the side of saftey. He said if I can get to heaven with a wedding ring on, well surely i can make iit in without one.

NO ! If you impose FASE doctrine on people as a test of salvation or fellowship and you are wrong on your interpretation, you have imposed hair-esy :heeheehee and you will answer for that.

Those who insisted on putting a yoke on new christians (circumsicion for example) Paul told they were wrongf in this. If Judaizers persited in enforcing their "standards" do you think God was going to just give a free pass.

People will be lost over standards YES ! mainly those that impose false ones.

JMHO :ty


Telling people that there are things that are good and that there are things that are harmful is the responsibility of the under-shepherd. However, attaching a soteriologic significance to something that God does not, IMO, is heretical. Anyone who messes with what God requires, I believe, will face a harsh judgement. I have no problem with folks who follow their personal convictions. But when those convictions become a requirement for salvation, then we have a problem!

Tell me that you do whatever it is that you do because you feel that it is the right thing to do. But don't tell me that I'm lost unless I do it YOUR way! The LAST thing I want to do is to require more from folks than God does for their salvation. I'm fairly fearless and a "pioneer" type, but I ain't treadin' on that ground.

As we judge, we shall be judged. I want mercy! I need mercy! I had better extend mercy! :D

[freeatlast]

Telling people that there are things that are good and that there are things that are harmful is the responsibility of the under-shepherd. However, attaching a soteriologic significance to something that God does not, IMO, is heretical. Anyone who messes with what God requires, I believe, will face a harsh judgement. I have no problem with folks who follow their personal convictions. But when those convictions become a requirement for salvation, then we have a problem!

Tell me that you do whatever it is that you do because you feel that it is the right thing to do. But don't tell me that I'm lost unless I do it YOUR way! The LAST thing I want to do is to require more from folks than God does for their salvation. I'm fairly fearless and a "pioneer" type, but I ain't treadin' on that ground.

As we judge, we shall be judged. I want mercy! I need mercy! I had better extend mercy! :D

EggZactly MOW..that's what I'm talking about.

Some folks feel they can require all manner of "standards" an declare that God is goona get you if you don't comply.

That same preacher has never thought it out that if he is with all his great education he recieved at Bible School is wrong on these imposed issues that he will be the one trembling before the throne on judgment day NOT the gal who wears pj's with legs to bed. :drawguns

[RevDWW]

I've heard it put this way by a man far my better: Standards are not the bridge to salvation, The Gospel message summed up in Acts 2:38 is. But standards can make good guard rails. [Weaver Paraphrase]

[ManOfWord]

I've heard it put this way by a man far my better: Standards are not the bridge to salvation, The Gospel message summed up in Acts 2:38 is. But standards can make good guard rails. [Weaver Paraphrase]

I can deal with that. It makes good sense. Some people are careless behind the wheel and need guard rails. Others are better drivers and can stay on the road without them. The important part is staying on the road and making it to the destination. :D

[LaVonne]

I've heard it put this way by a man far my better: Standards are not the bridge to salvation, The Gospel message summed up in Acts 2:38 is. But standards can make good guard rails. [Weaver Paraphrase]

That's great...I'm going to write that down!

[rgcraig]

I've heard it put this way by a man far my better: Standards are not the bridge to salvation, The Gospel message summed up in Acts 2:38 is. But standards can make good guard rails. [Weaver Paraphrase]
I can deal with this too - some folks need the rails to keep them from falling off while others can drive right down the middle.

[COOPER]

EggZactly MOW..that's what I'm talking about.

Some folks feel they can require all manner of "standards" an declare that God is goona get you if you don't comply.That same preacher has never thought it out that if he is with all his great education he recieved at Bible School is wrong on these imposed issues that he will be the one trembling before the throne on judgment day NOT the gal who wears pj's with legs to bed. :drawguns

And I have sat trembling as the Preacher spoke of some tragic death of a saint that would not keep them.
Then run to the alter balling my eyes out begging God to keep me saved.

[MrsMcD]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?

I guess it would depend on what standards they leave.

[COOPER]

I can deal with this too - some folks need the rails to keep them from falling off while others can drive right down the middle.
The fact is: that guard rail will not hold back a car that is going over the edge.

[ChTatum]

Many who have abandoned UPC standards will be lost, as will many who don't.

[COOPER]

I guess it would depend on what standards they leave.

When I was under a UPC pastor it seemed that standards and rules were taught because we where afraid of God.
Afraid that God would send us tell over anything.
Send you to hell over not reading your bible.
Send you to hell for going to a Movie.
Send you to hell for listening to Amy Grant.
When I first became apart of UPC in 1984 we thought the Neighboring UPC was Carnal because they played their music rockier and loader than ours.
We would go to section rallies checking out the standards of other churches.

[LaVonne]

When I was under a UPC pastor it seemed that standards and rules were taught because we where afraid of God.
Afraid that God would send us tell over anything.
Send you to hell over not reading your bible.
Send you to hell for going to a Movie.
Send you to hell for listening to Amy Grant.
When I first became apart of UPC in 1984 we thought the Neighboring UPC was Carnal because they played their music rockier and loader than ours.
We would go to section rallies checking out the standards of other churches.

It's true that there are UPC pastors who believe this kind of stuff...but they're not all that way Coop. Did you ever try a different church or maybe moving your family to place where you could attend a good church?

[COOPER]

Many who have abandoned UPC standards will be lost, as will many who don't.
I have heard many times over a UPC pulpit you can look right, act right, worship right, shout and still be lost.
In fact while apart of the UPC; I never had the complete assurance that I could be saved, I could only hope I would be saved.
And the hear the Scripture of the Man who did all things right in the sight of the lord BUT; his heart was not in it.
Who can be saved then?:dunno

[RevDWW]

I can deal with that. It makes good sense. Some people are careless behind the wheel and need guard rails. Others are better drivers and can stay on the road without them. The important part is staying on the road and making it to the destination. :D

I can deal with this too - some folks need the rails to keep them from falling off while others can drive right down the middle.

Standads are not evil. Everybody should have some rules to live by. The UPCI has a set, but if you ain't in the UPCI why sweat it? Live and let live and let God live in us. The problem comes with extremes.

Every business I've worked for has had standards of conduct and dress. One Large consulting company, I worked for, has a one step rule. You were expected to dress one step above whatever your client wore. If the wore a shirt and tie, you wore shirt, tie and coat. If the dressed causal, you wore a tie. I liked the company so I abided by their rules of dress. Mostly I liked the benefits, they far out weighed the negatives.

[RevDWW]

The fact is: that guard rail will not hold back a car that is going over the edge.

If there built to standad they will.......:heeheehee

[Charlie Brown]

Let me define this further, I do not believe that we are saved by keeping Biblical standards, nor do I believe that by not keeping standards is one necessarily lost. Faith is what saves us period, now in the process of walking in faith (I define faith as Hearing God+obedience=Faith) one will do and not do certain things, but doing or not doing those things without faith does not matter at all period.

As the old addage says, we must not get the cart before the horse. The greater question is does the absence of faith cause one to be lost? YES it does, and the scripture is clear that one can be moral, have standards even Biblical ones, and still be lost. Hell is full of such folks.


You lost me here. Are you saying that in the process of walking in faith that it makes no difference whether you keep biblical standards?? That as long as you have faith, you are saved??



Now as to the last part, the scripture is also clear that the children of disobedience shall receive wrath, and not salvation. I agree that standards do not save. But my question is not whether they save, but if a person leaves off keeping biblical standards whether they can be saved.

Let me be clearer. Biblical moral standards do not save me, but if I stop keeping biblical moral standards, will I stay saved?

[Charlie Brown]

I have heard many times over a UPC pulpit you can look right, act right, worship right, shout and still be lost.
In fact while apart of the UPC; I never had the complete assurance that I could be saved, I could only hope I would be saved.
And the hear the Scripture of the Man who did all things right in the sight of the lord BUT; his heart was not in it.
Who can be saved then?:dunno

They that endure to the end shall be saved. Our salvation is not a guarantee. It is a process. We trust Christ to finish that good work that he hath begun in us, and we yield to his masters touch.

[LaVonne]

It's true that there are UPC pastors who believe this kind of stuff...but they're not all that way Coop. Did you ever try a different church or maybe moving your family to place where you could attend a good church?

*Bump* for Coop!

[COOPER]

It's true that there are UPC pastors who believe this kind of stuff...but they're not all that way Coop. Did you ever try a different church or maybe moving your family to place where you could attend a good church?

Through out the years at The one and only UPC church I was apart of for seventeen years; my Pastor started easing up. Saints were told to not tell any new convert about standards. Eventually My Pastor dropped a bomb when he started preaching grace and what God requires of him is not required for the whole church. He apologized for being so hard and tuff. He said the he was afraid the UPC Manual has been put above the Bible.
Some things we teach as doctrines are not so.
While I was under a UPC Pastor and under his leading; standards were fading away and grace and Gods love and mercy were coming in to view.
I found a new trust and faith in Gods love.
My Pastor stumbled in the end, but he that has been forgiven much loves much.
My Pastor put up with My short falls and loved me even when I let him down. But he always loved me.
I loved him. He is a good man.
How could I not forgive his down falls. After All he is only a man.

[Carpenter]

They that endure to the end shall be saved. Our salvation is not a guarantee. It is a process. We trust Christ to finish that good work that he hath begun in us, and we yield to his masters touch.

Oh my word!!! God forbid!!!

A process? I suppose Jesus' Blood is applied sequentially?

Holy Cow! Do you really believe what you wrote??

[Charlie Brown]

Oh my word!!! God forbid!!!

A process? I suppose Jesus' Blood is applied sequentially?

Holy Cow! Do you really believe what you wrote??


It is all in how you define salvation. If you define it as simply the born again experience, then yes, you get it at new birth. But if you define it as the finished work of God in our lives, it comes at the end of our lives. We only get an earnest, the full deal happens at the end.

[LaVonne]

Through out the years at The one and only UPC church I was apart of for seventeen years; my Pastor started easing up. Saints were told to not tell any new convert about standards. Eventually My Pastor dropped a bomb when he started preaching grace and what God requires of him is not required for the whole church. He apologized for being so hard and tuff. He said the he was afraid the UPC Manual has been put above the Bible.
Some things we teach as doctrines are not so.
While I was under a UPC Pastor and under his leading; standards were fading away and grace and Gods love and mercy were coming in to view.
I found a new trust and faith in Gods love.
My Pastor stumbled in the end, but he that has been forgiven much loves much.
My Pastor put up with My short falls and loved me even when I let him down. But he always loved me.
I loved him. He is a good man.
How could I not forgive his down falls. After All he is only a man.

Ok, so your pastor used to preach all this stuff you listed, but then changed and started preaching love and grace and mercy...right? Well, if you loved your pastor so much and was able to forgive him, why the act against UPC? Was it because your former pastor said that what UPC preaches is above the Bible or did you and your family search all this out for yourself? I'm not being mean here...please don't get me wrong...I'm just trying to figure you out.

[COOPER]

Ok, so your pastor used to preach all this stuff you listed, but then changed and started preaching love and grace and mercy...right? Well, if you loved your pastor so much and was able to forgive him, why the act against UPC? Was it because your former pastor said that what UPC preaches is above the Bible or did you and your family search all this out for yourself? I'm not being mean here...please don't get me wrong...I'm just trying to figure you out.
I thought I was loosing my mind [I was a Holiness advocate], Because the lord was dealing with me about standards about six Months before he preached it.
It only confirmed what I and many others were hearing from God too.
I saw it for my self, not just because the Pastor said so.
It was a relief to know I was not the only one.

[LaVonne]

I thought I was loosing my mind [I was a Holiness advocate], Because the lord was dealing with me about standards about six Months before he preached it.
It only confirmed what I many others were hearing from God too.
I saw it for my self, not just because the Pastor said so.
It was a relief to know I was not the only one.

Ok, I see.

Sorry you feel this way...

[COOPER]

why the act against UPC? .
When I moved away from My home Church to come to Texas we were still "UPC" if you will. But when we visited the UPC Churches in Amarillo we knew we could never go back. The churches were old fashioned and preached often on standards and do's and don'ts
We knew we could no longer fit in. We have been led away from the UPC and we were not going back to something we had been set free from.

[COOPER]

Ok, I see.

Sorry you feel this way...
Why are you sorry?
Do you find it imposible that God would show or lead another way than the UPC way?

[LaVonne]

When I moved away from My home Church to come to Texas we were still "UPC" if you will. But when we visited the UPC Churches in Amarillo we knew we could never go back. The churches were old fashioned and preached often on standards and do's and don'ts
We knew we could no longer fit in. We have been led away from the UPC and we were not going back to something we had been set free from.

I'm sorry for your negative experience Coop. We had a pretty negative experience ourselves. We figured we (hubby and I) could probably make it, but we didn't think our kids would. We decided to change churches...we went to two other churches besides the one my huband grew up in and I attended for 15 years. I know some districts are worse than others....I'm just sorry for the way things turned out for your family.

[LaVonne]

Why are you sorry?
Do you find it imposible that God would show or lead another way than the UPC way?

No, I don't think that. But I do know that where we live there is no other organization or church that believe the ACTS 2:38 message...some may believe in the Holy Ghost, but they Baptize in the titles. So, for us to leave UPC would be leaving truth...unless we started our own church...kwim?

[COOPER]

No, I don't think that. But I do know that where we live there is no other organization or church that believe the ACTS 2:38 message...some may believe in the Holy Ghost, but they Baptize in the titles. So, for us to leave UPC would be leaving truth...unless we started our own church...kwim?
I have thought of that too, But I am not worthy of such a role.

[LaVonne]

I have thought of that too, But I am not worthy of such a role.

Well, it's not just a role, but a calling, I believe. We're not sure we want to start a church either...although the idea has been presented to us.

[COOPER]

Well, it's not just a role, but a calling, I believe. We're not sure we want to start a church either...although the idea has been presented to us.
I have had a calling, for what in particular I do not know.
I just always knew I would be a singer/preacher.

[Neck]

Absolutely. Without a doubt. Definitely. Uhhhhhh. What was the question again?

Most of them are not. That's all I have to say. If we added pushing the fork away from most Apotalics, they would for the most part be living in sin.

To him that knoweth to good and doeth it not to (Him) it is sin.

Push away the fork and then talk about standards.

If the body is a temple give the body room for the spirit...

[LaVonne]

I have had a calling, for what in particular I do not know.
I just always knew I would be a singer/preacher.

Well Coop, you still can be just that. I know for my husband, he felt a call to preach, but never had any encouragement. Then along came someone who gave him confidence in his walk with God and his abilities and now my husband knows (pretty much) what he'll do in the kindgom.

We need to pray that the Lord sends someone to you to help you along the way...

[Charlie Brown]

Most of them are not. That's all I have to say. If we added pushing the fork away from most Apotalics, they would for the most part be living in sin.

To him that knoweth to good and doeth it not to (Him) it is sin.

Push away the fork and then talk about standards.

If the body is a temple give the body room for the spirit...


So you want to add another standards in order to justify that standards are not a heaven or hell issue??

If disobedience to scriptural principles and mandates is not a cause for one being lost, then let us eat, drink, and be married, for tomorrow we die.

[COOPER]

Well Coop, you still can be just that. I know for my husband, he felt a call to preach, but never had any encouragement. Then along came someone who gave him confidence in his walk with God and his abilities and now my husband knows (pretty much) what he'll do in the kindgom.

We need to pray that the Lord sends someone to you to help you along the way...
That sure would be cool sis.

[Pastor Keith]

You lost me here. Are you saying that in the process of walking in faith that it makes no difference whether you keep biblical standards?? That as long as you have faith, you are saved??



Now as to the last part, the scripture is also clear that the children of disobedience shall receive wrath, and not salvation. I agree that standards do not save. But my question is not whether they save, but if a person leaves off keeping biblical standards whether they can be saved.

Let me be clearer. Biblical moral standards do not save me, but if I stop keeping biblical moral standards, will I stay saved?


There are works of faith, faith without works is dead being alone, but to purposely violate God's revealed word on any issue is sin, and to abide in sin is contrary to faith. But weed out faith and a man left with a moral code has only that a moral code.

Also let me add what I have been pondering over the last few hours, we have to be clear what is sin and what isn't sin. Violating someone's interpretation on how to apply a unchangeable principle might not be sin. Jesus did this many times with the Pharisees.

[LaVonne]

That sure would be cool sis.

Malachi and I will be praying for you and your family!:highfive

[Charlie Brown]

There are works of faith, faith without works is dead being alone, but to purposely violate God's revealed word on any issue is sin, and to abide in sin is contrary to faith. But weed out faith and a man left with a moral code has only that a moral code.

Also let me add what I have been pondering over the last few hours, we have to be clear what is sin and what isn't sin. Violating someone's interpretation on how to apply a unchangeable principle might not be sin. Jesus did this many times with the Pharisees.

So we are both in agreement that faith with corresponding actions of obedience is what saves us, right?


So the question remains, can someone leave obedience to the Word concerning moral standards and continue to call him Lord?

[COOPER]

Malachi and I will be praying for you and your family!:highfive
Thank you.

[Pastor Keith]

So we are both in agreement that faith with corresponding actions of obedience is what saves us, right?


So the question remains, can someone leave obedience to the Word concerning moral standards and continue to call him Lord?


No, they will be lost, but I am curious to what you consider moral standards?

[Charlie Brown]

No, they will be lost, but I am curious to what you consider moral standards?

I didn't define my view for the reason of discussion, because my view is not everyone else's view. I used your words "Moral Standards" because we were having the discussion, and I was attempting to relate to you.

[Pastor Keith]

I didn't define my view for the reason of discussion, because my view is not everyone else's view. I used your words "Moral Standards" because we were having the discussion, and I was attempting to relate to you.

Well I thought that would be the easiest way to relate to you.

Let say there are non-disputable standards, and then there are disputable matters of conscience these are non binding.

What people consider are disputable and non disputable remains currently disputable.

[Ron]

Well I thought that would be the easiest way to relate to you.

Let say there are non-disputable standards, and then there are disputable matters of conscience these are non binding.

What people consider are disputable and non disputable remains currently disputable.

That says it in a nutshell, doesn't it?:heeheehee

[Charlie Brown]

Well I thought that would be the easiest way to relate to you.

Let say there are non-disputable standards, and then there are disputable matters of conscience these are non binding.

What people consider are disputable and non disputable remains currently disputable.

I wouldn't dispute that! :killinme


I think there are moral specifics that are very plain in scripture. Morally, it is wrong to fornicate or kill. No one argues those points. Modesty? We all believe in modesty in dress. We just all have a differing point that we draw our line. But we all agree that there is a need for modesty.

I personally believe unless the bible plainly states something, it is probably something that God intends each individual to work out with Him personally.

[Ron]

I wouldn't dispute that! :killinme


I think there are moral specifics that are very plain in scripture. Morally, it is wrong to fornicate or kill. No one argues those points. Modesty? We all believe in modesty in dress. We just all have a differing point that we draw our line. But we all agree that there is a need for modesty.

I personally believe unless the bible plainly states something, it is probably something that God intends each individual to work out with Him personally.

Well this is something I don't have to pray about-I ain't wearing no dress!!:tease

[Michael The Disciple]

Ten pages so far and I have not seen what I personally know of concerning standards mentioned except in passing.

No one will be lost for wearing a beard. It is a masculine thing ordained of God. Some may be lost for teaching such a thing and causing righteous men to turn from Oneness Churches.

No woman will be lost over trimming her hair. No scripture says such a thing. Again if loss of salvation occurs over the issue it may be those who teach standards of their own and not of YHWH.

[COOPER]

Ten pages so far and I have not seen what I personally know of concerning standards mentioned except in passing.

No one will be lost for wearing a beard. It is a masculine thing ordained of God. Some may be lost for teaching such a thing and causing righteous men to turn from Oneness Churches.

No woman will be lost over trimming her hair. No scripture says such a thing. Again if loss of salvation occurs over the issue it may be those who teach standards of their own and not of YHWH.
No one will be lost for .............
men and women in pants or shorts.
Going to a Pro. Football game unless it's the Bears.:heeheehee
Skipping church to go camping or fishing.
Not paying a tithe.

[Brother Price]

This question was asked on another forum, and I responded in this manner...

Standards do not make one saved. Standards are fruit. If a saint, in a modest and humble spirit, feels led to dress as a holiness person, then their modesty and holiness will keep them saved, and their standards will be the fruit thereof. I have known non-standards saints who have a right spirit, and they are my brethren, yes. May not agree with them on their dress, but that is between them and the Lord. They have a right spirit, and I believe eventually, the Lord will lead them into some form of standards.

For me, I do not wear shorts, because no human being deserves the pain of seeing my legs. I do not wear jewelry, because it is just not right in my spirit to do so. I do not wear sleeveless shirts, because of the same reason as the shorts. I watch a little TV now and then, but not any of the ungodly mess I see on many channels. I believe a woman should not trim her hair because it is a sign of rebellion in my heart's view. All of these are in my heart, because of the spirit within me.

[freeatlast]

I'll ask a differnent question than the thread title

Will those that IMPOSE standards be lost?

One preacher said he'd prefer to error on the side of saftey. He said if I can get to heaven with a wedding ring on, well surely i can make iit in without one.

NO ! If you impose FASE doctrine on people as a test of salvation or fellowship and you are wrong on your interpretation, you have imposed hair-esy :heeheehee and you will answer for that.

Those who insisted on putting a yoke on new christians (circumsicion for example) Paul told they were wrongf in this. If Judaizers persited in enforcing their "standards" do you think God was going to just give a free pass.

People will be lost over standards YES ! mainly those that impose false ones.

JMHO :ty

Gonna bump this thought and a couple of responses up for discussion.

[freeatlast]

Telling people that there are things that are good and that there are things that are harmful is the responsibility of the under-shepherd. However, attaching a soteriologic significance to something that God does not, IMO, is heretical. Anyone who messes with what God requires, I believe, will face a harsh judgement. I have no problem with folks who follow their personal convictions. But when those convictions become a requirement for salvation, then we have a problem!

Tell me that you do whatever it is that you do because you feel that it is the right thing to do. But don't tell me that I'm lost unless I do it YOUR way! The LAST thing I want to do is to require more from folks than God does for their salvation. I'm fairly fearless and a "pioneer" type, but I ain't treadin' on that ground.

As we judge, we shall be judged. I want mercy! I need mercy! I had better extend mercy! :D

Think about it.

[freeatlast]

EggZactly MOW..that's what I'm talking about.

Some folks feel they can require all manner of "standards" an declare that God is goona get you if you don't comply.

That same preacher has never thought it out that if he is with all his great education he recieved at Bible School is wrong on these imposed issues that he will be the one trembling before the throne on judgment day NOT the gal who wears pj's with legs to bed. :drawguns

SO the question is : do you think that God just hands out free passes to us Apostolics who declare our idea's of standards as salvational or even as a test of fellowship?

Will God just say , oh i no know you sincerley beleived you interpreted that scripture correctly, so come on in.

If He does will God then hand out a free pass tot he mormon;s and Jehovahs Witness for their error of interpretation.

Given my choice (if I was a women): stand before God in pants and trimmed hair and a wedding ring on

OR : stand before God as a preacher who caused someone to stumble over a stumbling block of a miscontrived idea about any "standard" you want to name.

I'd put my bet on the women to hear the words, Enter In

[Whole Hearted]

Ten pages so far and I have not seen what I personally know of concerning standards mentioned except in passing.


No woman will be lost over trimming her hair. No scripture says such a thing. Again if loss of salvation occurs over the issue it may be those who teach standards of their own and not of YHWH.

:thumbsdown :vomit :crazy

[freeatlast]

:thumbsdown :vomit :crazy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Ten pages so far and I have not seen what I personally know of concerning standards mentioned except in passing.


No woman will be lost over trimming her hair. No scripture says such a thing. Again if loss of salvation occurs over the issue it may be those who teach standards of their own and not of YHWH.

Care to expound on tis oh Wholy Hearted: you seem to imply Michael is crazy?

Care to tell us where in the bible the words appear if a women trims her she will be lost.

Please spare us any quote's from 1 Corinthians.. you know it ain't REALLY in there.

[Thumper]

This question was asked on another forum, and I responded in this manner...

Standards do not make one saved. Standards are fruit. If a saint, in a modest and humble spirit, feels led to dress as a holiness person, then their modesty and holiness will keep them saved, and their standards will be the fruit thereof. I have known non-standards saints who have a right spirit, and they are my brethren, yes. May not agree with them on their dress, but that is between them and the Lord. They have a right spirit, and I believe eventually, the Lord will lead them into some form of standards.

For me, I do not wear shorts, because no human being deserves the pain of seeing my legs. I do not wear jewelry, because it is just not right in my spirit to do so. I do not wear sleeveless shirts, because of the same reason as the shorts. I watch a little TV now and then, but not any of the ungodly mess I see on many channels. I believe a woman should not trim her hair because it is a sign of rebellion in my heart's view. All of these are in my heart, because of the spirit within me.

BP's views are shifting to the left again.

Is it that time of the week already?




:killinme



Hey BP,

Your web blog is down. Are you updating your beliefs again?

[Ronzo]

BP's views are shifting to the left again.

Is it that time of the week already?




:killinme



Hey BP,

Your web blog is down. Are you updating your beliefs again?

Bro... leave the guy alone.

[freeatlast]

This question was asked on another forum, and I responded in this manner...

Standards do not make one saved. Standards are fruit. If a saint, in a modest and humble spirit, feels led to dress as a holiness person, then their modesty and holiness will keep them saved, and their standards will be the fruit thereof. I have known non-standards saints who have a right spirit, and they are my brethren, yes. May not agree with them on their dress, but that is between them and the Lord. They have a right spirit, and I believe eventually, the Lord will lead them into some form of standards.

For me, I do not wear shorts, because no human being deserves the pain of seeing my legs. I do not wear jewelry, because it is just not right in my spirit to do so. I do not wear sleeveless shirts, because of the same reason as the shorts. I watch a little TV now and then, but not any of the ungodly mess I see on many channels. I believe a woman should not trim her hair because it is a sign of rebellion in my heart's view. All of these are in my heart, because of the spirit within me.

yes BP standards are fruit. Standards are listed in Gal with...the wait is now 10 qualities that are the fruit of the spirit.

Standards are NOT a fruit. Standards merely methods that imposers/enforcers use to judge the spirituality of women.

Fruit? seems more like a nut to me.

[Bishop1]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?



" Y E S "

Bishop1
:beatdeadhorse

[Carpenter]

Well I thought that would be the easiest way to relate to you.

Let say there are non-disputable standards, and then there are disputable matters of conscience these are non binding.

What people consider are disputable and non disputable remains currently disputable.

Keith, unfortunately these disputable matters of conscience that are non-binding would act as degrees of separation that literally blast fellowhip of the brethern to bits, isolating precious folks to the wilderness.

[Carpenter]

Well this is something I don't have to pray about-I ain't wearing no dress!!:tease

Not unless you sing in the choir...and they make you wear a choir robe...which is a dress. :D

[Carpenter]

It is all in how you define salvation. If you define it as simply the born again experience, then yes, you get it at new birth. But if you define it as the finished work of God in our lives, it comes at the end of our lives. We only get an earnest, the full deal happens at the end.

Lets see, defining salvation as the finished work of God in our lives, then that salvation only comes at the end...

So what you are saying is that it is never finished, because each and every one of us die prematurely...or before we would like to die.

Meaning of course, we are banished to spend the rest of our lives working toward our salvation but never attaining it.

I am not sure God ever intended his blood to be a carrot on a stick.

[freeatlast]

I'll take the finished work of Calvary...you keep chasing that carrot stick.

[Carpenter]

I'll take the finished work of Calvary...you keep chasing that carrot stick.

What do you mean? How do you define the "finished work of Calvary?"

[freeatlast]

What do you mean? How do you define the "finished work of Calvary?"

I meant for Charlie Brown to keep chasing the stick, not you Carp.

I was agreeing with you.

Calvary's work, the blood sacrafice that made Christ my savior/mediator/advocate is the ONLY thing that has saved me and will keep me saved.

Br. Carp, we could all be mother Therasa on steriods in all our good works.
We can have the longest dressses, sleeves, hair and faces and God would not be the slightset bit impressed by are good works.

Salvation is not of myself..when I begin to think that I am earning it by standards or good works I am more than likley losing it or possibly have never understood the grace of God at all.

[Charlie Brown]

Lets see, defining salvation as the finished work of God in our lives, then that salvation only comes at the end...

So what you are saying is that it is never finished, because each and every one of us die prematurely...or before we would like to die.

Meaning of course, we are banished to spend the rest of our lives working toward our salvation but never attaining it.

I am not sure God ever intended his blood to be a carrot on a stick.

So God has finished his work in you, and you never need his blood again?? My friend, the redemption of our bodies is when salvation is finished. Until that point, some will fail the grace of God, and be lost. IF their salvation was finished at new birth, then they could never loose it. Do you believe the eternal security teachings??

And you have placed words into my mouth that I have never said. I did not say we "work to be saved". But we DO work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (we take our walk with God serious), less as Paul stated in one place, we should find ourself rejected. We walk by faith.

I have no problem stating that I am saved, because I understand that I have received the deposit of eternal life. But I do not have the full possesion of my salvation until I am changed from mortality to immortality.

[Carpenter]

I meant for Charlie Brown to keep chasing the stick, not you Carp.

I was agreeing with you.

Calvary's work, the blood sacrafice that made Christ my savior/mediator/advocate is the ONLY thing that has saved me and will keep me saved.

Br. Carp, we could all be mother Therasa on steriods in all our good works.
We can have the longest dressses, sleeves, hair and faces and God would not be the slightset bit impressed by are good works.

Salvation is not of myself..when I begin to think that I am earning it by standards or good works I am more than likley losing it or possibly have never understood the grace of God at all.


An Emphatic AMEN!

[Carpenter]

So God has finished his work in you, and you never need his blood again?? My friend, the redemption of our bodies is when salvation is finished. Until that point, some will fail the grace of God, and be lost. IF their salvation was finished at new birth, then they could never loose it. Do you believe the eternal security teachings??

And you have placed words into my mouth that I have never said. I did not say we "work to be saved". But we DO work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (we take our walk with God serious), less as Paul stated in one place, we should find ourself rejected. We walk by faith.

I have no problem stating that I am saved, because I understand that I have received the deposit of eternal life. But I do not have the full possesion of my salvation until I am changed from mortality to immortality.

Your first paragraph is doctrinally failed and from your comment, leads me to believe you do not have a thorough understanding of the Grace of God. I also have to say that your comments are nothing new. They are identical to what I have heard in the Apostolic church pretty much my entire life.

What you are saying also, is that we continue to live until we are dead. Newsflash!

What you (et al.) fail to understand is that we cannot fail the Grace of God. In fact, I find that almost impossible. You are piercing the ear of Grace with works, lest you should boast. It is either works or Grace, Paul said that, or should we just carve out the book of Romans from the Bible?

I can say I am saved by his grace, and I will tell you now that I am a failed, imperfect, fallible being that has been bought by HIS blood, and that which I would not, I continue to do (sound familiar?). I do not proceed in righteousness according to the Law, or synthetic mandate. I work based on a love for my Jesus.

Go ahead and ask if I believe once saved-always saved and I will respond that you have not read my post thoroughly enough, and suggest that you do a refresher of the book of Romans (Which interstengly enough Talmidge French has written may not be part of the original cannon along with the book of Luke).

[LadyChocolate]

Come on now Brother, just encouraging conversation here. You guys are the ones that keep bumping it. I am just trying to increase my post count for the day. :killinme


...then you can go to the playground and play the word games...that'll really boost your posts without all the beatings.....lol

[Charlie Brown]

Your first paragraph is doctrinally failed and from your comment, leads me to believe you do not have a thorough understanding of the Grace of God. I also have to say that your comments are nothing new. They are identical to what I have heard in the Apostolic church pretty much my entire life.

What you are saying also, is that we continue to live until we are dead. Newsflash!

What you (et al.) fail to understand is that we cannot fail the Grace of God. In fact, I find that almost impossible. You are piercing the ear of Grace with works, lest you should boast. It is either works or Grace, Paul said that, or should we just carve out the book of Romans from the Bible?

I can say I am saved by his grace, and I will tell you now that I am a failed, imperfect, fallible being that has been bought by HIS blood, and that which I would not, I continue to do (sound familiar?). I do not proceed in righteousness according to the Law, or synthetic mandate. I work based on a love for my Jesus.

Go ahead and ask if I believe once saved-always saved and I will respond that you have not read my post thoroughly enough, and suggest that you do a refresher of the book of Romans (Which interstengly enough Talmidge French has written may not be part of the original cannon along with the book of Luke).


I have started about 3 of 4 posts, but figure it is not worth it. You already know everything, so there is nothing I could say that you would not already know. Ill just post these scriptures, and you can explain them away.



Hbr 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;

Tts 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

[Brother Price]

The whole of the standards issue will never be settled. Some have made it a salvation issue, and some have not. Some have said long sleeves only, and some have said short sleeve is acceptable. Some have said no makeup or jewelry, and some have said some is acceptable, so long as it is modest. There is such a distinction.

Recently, I lost my baby cousin, who was more like my baby brother. We were raised together, and he was my age. I remember this past Saturday so vividly, as we said a farewell to him. Now, when one is staring death in the face, especially the death of a loved one so very close to you, suddenly standards do not matter. Dress or pants no longer bother you. You are only wonder if that person was baptized in Jesus' name, repented of their sins, and was filled with the Holy Ghost. You weep at the thought of them possibly not making, or not knowing for sure. Standards fly out the window, and you are more concerned about the soul than anything else.

I am still a believer in standards, do not get me wrong. But, in the glimpse of all, we have made too many dividing lines about such. We have separated too much about such. Paul said in 1Corinthians 2:1-5, "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." He preached Christ and him crucified.

We are living in a generation who will know their God, and they will see what holiness is all about. We will not need to make division over such menial issues as dress length or sleeve length. We will see young people, and old alike, experience Jesus Christ. As they do so, they will change and become holy before Him. But, they way this is done is through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, first and foremost. Took me some time to stop the foolishness of damning souls to Hell who were not 100% as I was, but I feel I am getting there. Looking at my 'baby brother' in that casket was enough to crush my heart hard.

[ManOfWord]

The whole of the standards issue will never be settled. Some have made it a salvation issue, and some have not. Some have said long sleeves only, and some have said short sleeve is acceptable. Some have said no makeup or jewelry, and some have said some is acceptable, so long as it is modest. There is such a distinction.

Recently, I lost my baby cousin, who was more like my baby brother. We were raised together, and he was my age. I remember this past Saturday so vividly, as we said a farewell to him. Now, when one is staring death in the face, especially the death of a loved one so very close to you, suddenly standards do not matter. Dress or pants no longer bother you. You are only wonder if that person was baptized in Jesus' name, repented of their sins, and was filled with the Holy Ghost. You weep at the thought of them possibly not making, or not knowing for sure. Standards fly out the window, and you are more concerned about the soul than anything else.

I am still a believer in standards, do not get me wrong. But, in the glimpse of all, we have made too many dividing lines about such. We have separated too much about such. Paul said in 1Corinthians 2:1-5, "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." He preached Christ and him crucified.

We are living in a generation who will know their God, and they will see what holiness is all about. We will not need to make division over such menial issues as dress length or sleeve length. We will see young people, and old alike, experience Jesus Christ. As they do so, they will change and become holy before Him. But, they way this is done is through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, first and foremost. Took me some time to stop the foolishness of damning souls to Hell who were not 100% as I was, but I feel I am getting there. Looking at my 'baby brother' in that casket was enough to crush my heart hard.


BP, it is very difficult, indeed, to experience those "Thou art the man" situations. I have had more than my share. I appreciate your transparency here and the fact that you still hold your personal convictions. That is commendable. I believe you are so right in saying that when it all comes down to our last moments, lengths etc. really kind of fade into nothingness as our relationship with Jesus Christ is examined.


Thank you for your balance!!

[chosenbyone]

BP, it is very difficult, indeed, to experience those "Thou art the man" situations. I have had more than my share. I appreciate your transparency here and the fact that you still hold your personal convictions. That is commendable. I believe you are so right in saying that when it all comes down to our last moments, lengths etc. really kind of fade into nothingness as our relationship with Jesus Christ is examined.


Thank you for your balance!!

An enthusiastic AMEN!

[Neck]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?



That is really like asking if those who leave the UPCI will they be lost.

I have felt the same power of God, seen the same lives of sin set free.

Seen the same power of the HG and the waters of Baptism flow with waves as folks walk the new birth road to salvation.

Not sure what your idea of standards are...

The idea you can know anyone's heart solely by their appearance is crazy...

[Joelel]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?

Hi Charlie,Anyone who leaves mans standards woun't be lost but if any leaves God's standards will be,but there are many oneness who don't keep God's standards and never did,so they are lost too.

[Tech]

Hi Charlie,Anyone who leaves mans standards woun't be lost but if any leaves God's standards will be,but there are many oneness who don't keep God's standards and never did,so they are lost too.

Do you believe being judgmental is keeping to Gods standards?

[ILG]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?

Nope. Unless you are talking about principles. It is a biblical principle that a man shall not wear a woman's clothes and vise-versa, but the definitions of that are sometimes controversial. It is a biblical principle that long hair is a glory to a woman, but some would argue that a trim makes a woman as bald as a billiard ball. Principles are heaven/ hell issues but I think the definitions of those principles are a lot more varied that some people want to believe.

[Neck]

After having read through a few threads, I think I will stir the pot and ask this question.

STANDARDS; Are they really heaven or hell issues?

The 10 Commandments and the commandment to Love! The sin against the Holy Ghost. Those are heaven and hell issues.

The rest throw them over the other sode of the boat..