The Times...They are a-Changin'

[Carpenter]

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

There is a young man in our local UPC here, who I observed to be totally plugged in and appearing to be a member of the establishment (20th century thinking on my part), only when I had an opportunity to speak to him he told me, I don't consider myself Pentecostal or Apostolic, or even a member of The Blue Peaks and Green Valleys UPC Tabernacle.

I was stunned really but when I began to think about it, I bet not even the pastor knows this...and I bet he isn't the only one.

There is a reconing to be had here soon, and the hard liners can puff and groan, and call me all manner of sordid names, but I am not thinking it will have much affect on you beyond observation from your wheelchairs... :D

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

[tbpew]

Carp,
thanks for sharing some stirrings from your experiences.

As one whose primary experience of 'not forsaking the assembly' is "house-to-house", AND as one who believes the most effective and transparent spiritual ministry occurs when unity of purpose is manifested as 2 or 3 are gathered together in the authority of our Lord and savoiur, I found a certain joyous witness in reading your assessments.

Most Central Delivery Systems 'CDLs' do an admirable job of conveying information to a group, but the same delivery approach struggles to foster intimate relationship that is purposed between the individual creature and the creator.

IMO, there is a general propensity to be snared in the same manner that the Galatians were, to begin a journey with the receipt of the Spirit as a gift, and then revert back to trying to be completed (perfected) by the means available within the carnal mind; the flesh.

Groups are a construct that can be fully discerned and managed by the carnal mind. Those who will follow the same one that Abraham was lead by will find very little validity in any man-club.

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

There is a young man in our local UPC here, who I observed to be totally plugged in and appearing to be a member of the establishment (20th century thinking on my part), only when I had an opportunity to speak to him he told me, I don't consider myself Pentecostal or Apostolic, or even a member of The Blue Peaks and Green Valleys UPC Tabernacle.

I was stunned really but when I began to think about it, I bet not even the pastor knows this...and I bet he isn't the only one.

There is a reconing to be had here soon, and the hard liners can puff and groan, and call me all manner of sordid names, but I am not thinking it will have much affect on you beyond observation from your wheelchairs... :D

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

[EA]

Carpenter, methinks you are on to something.

[Hoovie]

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

There is a young man in our local UPC here, who I observed to be totally plugged in and appearing to be a member of the establishment (20th century thinking on my part), only when I had an opportunity to speak to him he told me, I don't consider myself Pentecostal or Apostolic, or even a member of The Blue Peaks and Green Valleys UPC Tabernacle.

I was stunned really but when I began to think about it, I bet not even the pastor knows this...and I bet he isn't the only one.

There is a reconing to be had here soon, and the hard liners can puff and groan, and call me all manner of sordid names, but I am not thinking it will have much affect on you beyond observation from your wheelchairs... :D

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

I do agree.

What those within the afore mentioned hierarchy will find the most troubling is their inability to stop the changes.

In fact, their very attempts to stop it will likely accelerate things.

[HopePreacher]

There are quite a few societal changes that are affecting the body of Christ today, not the least of which is the movement away from larger influence groups to samller support type groups.

It does seem that we are moving closer to the New Testament model of Acts 2:42 which seems to be that of going from house to house in fellowship, breaking bread, prayer and teaching.

With that being said there is also the herd instinct among us that enjoys the atmosphere of a large group. Examples are sports arenas, concert halls and megachurches.

The ideal church today may be one that holds small groups as a core value and a source for spiritual growth and maturity while offering the larger corporate meeting as a place of inspiration and celebration.

Those among us who still see "the church" as the Sunday morning Wednesday night crowd may face dwindling membership.

I am an old school aged 60 something warrior and I can tell you that the changes I have had to make inorder to be effective in the 21st century have not been easy, but some time ago I realized that I had to trim the vine of old ideas or the vine itself would die along with the old ideas.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

There is a young man in our local UPC here, who I observed to be totally plugged in and appearing to be a member of the establishment (20th century thinking on my part), only when I had an opportunity to speak to him he told me, I don't consider myself Pentecostal or Apostolic, or even a member of The Blue Peaks and Green Valleys UPC Tabernacle.

I was stunned really but when I began to think about it, I bet not even the pastor knows this...and I bet he isn't the only one.

There is a reconing to be had here soon, and the hard liners can puff and groan, and call me all manner of sordid names, but I am not thinking it will have much affect on you beyond observation from your wheelchairs... :D

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.



As quickly and as drastic as things are changing, I don't think there is something in the works where people won't want to consider themselves members of a church.

Rather, we will find the church that ministers to our needs-- a church that is relevant.

[Blubayou]

I think you are on to something here.

[gloryseeker]

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe that you are right, but you also have to look at the "end of the story."

Those same people are typically, unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives.

So while your analysis is probably more right than it is wrong, it is not good. Just look at the "parents" of those who are under 30. They have no parenting skills, their kids are committing suicide at record numbers, on anti depressants, cutting themselves, joining gangs in record numbers, and having sex with everyone around including the same gender.

In my daughter's High School their were 80 pregnant girls. This all comes from some place...it's the theology of this group that you are talking about.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

Again there is some truth in what you are saying. We are seeing the church "change", however the change is producing a very weak Christian who says that they love Jesus but are hopping from bed to bed, drinking, cussings, partying like the world on Saturday and they rejoicing with the worship team on Sunday.

It is totally contrary to the multitude of scripture that talks about being like a "tree planted."

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

The worship of organization is not God's plan. But stability is. What I believe that you will see is that as Isaiah states (60:1-2) while gross darkness covers the world and people their will be a glorious church that arises. One that is committed, loves Jesus more than the world, whose focal point is like the fathers of the faith who are committed to getting God's work wrapped up.

[ChTatum]

This is a great thread. Probably won't stay on page one long.

[Jermyn Davidson]

This is a great thread. Probably won't stay on page one long.

nope......................................























































probably not!
:)

[rgcraig]

Completely agree Carp!

[Digging4Truth]

I believe that you are right, but you also have to look at the "end of the story."

Those same people are typically, unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives.

So while your analysis is probably more right than it is wrong, it is not good. Just look at the "parents" of those who are under 30. They have no parenting skills, their kids are committing suicide at record numbers, on anti depressants, cutting themselves, joining gangs in record numbers, and having sex with everyone around including the same gender.

In my daughter's High School their were 80 pregnant girls. This all comes from some place...it's the theology of this group that you are talking about.



Again there is some truth in what you are saying. We are seeing the church "change", however the change is producing a very weak Christian who says that they love Jesus but are hopping from bed to bed, drinking, cussings, partying like the world on Saturday and they rejoicing with the worship team on Sunday.

It is totally contrary to the multitude of scripture that talks about being like a "tree planted."



The worship of organization is not God's plan. But stability is. What I believe that you will see is that as Isaiah states (60:1-2) while gross darkness covers the world and people their will be a glorious church that arises. One that is committed, loves Jesus more than the world, whose focal point is like the fathers of the faith who are committed to getting God's work wrapped up.

The post above is an ode to a dying day. It is not a dying day because the model is useless. It is a dying day because they shun and attack all those who have a different vision. Not a different message. Just a different method. Self inflicted attrition is a strong force and little can survive it's effect.

The problem is that too many... especially of the passing paradigm... feel that the method is as important as the message.

The method sheds it's skin from time to time. Probably once per generation. The method changes. The error is in seeing people in error for no longer agreeing with the previous method.

I am one of those who serves in the current model.

I hold offices. I am a preacher. I have been known to speak at camp meetings and fellowship meetings and will do so again.

I get behind that pulpit and I preach the message. I don't feel that many aspects of the method are the most effective for our day and hour but I don't see any profit or Godliness in using the pulpit to destroy what is now in place.

They don't know that I am "one of those". There are many of us who are "one of those". We long for and work toward a different day and yet serve with all our might in this present day. I will never fight the current model but I will be ready when the next model comes to life. I have been ready for years.

Why don't they know that I am one of those? Because those who are sold out to a paradigm judge us too quickly because our methods are different.

Because our tree is not planted in their orchard they say our tree is not planted.

Because our priorities outside the message itself differ from their own they see us as aloof and undedicated.

They are quick to judge us and make all manner of accusation against what they will never attempt to understand.

So I toil among them. Loving them. Ministering to the saints of their churches. And awaiting the day. Awaiting the inevitable day that this paradigm shift will occur in earnest. They don't know I am here because they would ridicule and ostracize if they knew my thoughts so I am content to serve them... and serve them well... as I await the day that God makes the change and I hope that, at that time, my God sees that I have been a faithful, non judgmental and patient servant of His Kingdom no matter the paradigm that I serve Him under.

In that day... some will be surprised at how quickly I became "one of them" because they never knew that I was one of them all the time. We are here. We are temporarily silent. And we are many.

We await the day that the dream God has placed within us because a reality. When God places a dream it will come to pass. One need only walk in patience and belief.

BTW... It is SO good to hear from you Carp.

[nahkoe]

I'm one of these too. I don't, currently, serve in the current model. I can't seem to find my place. I'm not necessary, and I shake the foundations that some hold so dear without having any intention of doing it. I'm fiercely loyal. I'd gladly serve in whatever capacity I was needed in. But I've found I'm not welcome in some places, for a multitude of reasons. So I just wait.

This post is an ode to a dying day.

The problem is that too many... especially of the passing paradigm... feel that the method is as important as the message.

The method sheds it's skin from time to time. Probably once per generation. The method changes. The error is in seeing people in error for no longer agreeing with the previous method.

I am one of those who serves in the current model.

I hold offices. I am a preacher. I have been known to speak at camp meetings and fellowship meetings and will do so again.

I get behind that pulpit and I preach the message. I don't feel that many aspects of the method are the best for our day and hour but I don't see any profit or Godliness in using the pulpit to destroy what is now in place.

They don't know that I am "one of those". There are many of us who are "one of those". We long for and work toward a different day and yet serve with all our might in this present day. I will never fight the current model but I will be ready when the next model comes to life. I have been ready for years.

Why don't they know that I am one of those? Because those who are sold out to a paradigm judge us too quickly because our methods are different.

Because our tree is not planted in their orchard they say our tree is not planted.

Because our priorities outside the message itself differ from their own they see us as aloof and undedicated.

They are quick to judge us and make all manner of accusation against what they will never attempt to understand.

So I toil among them. Loving them. Ministering to the saints of their churches. And awaiting the day. Awaiting the inevitable day that this paradigm shift will occur in earnest. They don't know I am here because they would ridicule and ostracize if they knew my thoughts so I am content to serve them... and serve them well... as I await the day that God makes the change and I hope that, at that time, my God sees that I have been a faithful, non judgmental and patient servant of His Kingdom no matter the paradigm that I serve Him under.

In that day... some will be surprised at how quickly I became "one of them" because they never knew that I was one of them all the time. We are here. We are temporarily silent. And we are many.

We await the day that the dream God has placed within us because a reality. When God places a dream it will come to pass. One need only walk in patience and belief.

[Digging4Truth]

I'm one of these too. I don't, currently, serve in the current model. I can't seem to find my place. I'm not necessary, and I shake the foundations that some hold so dear without having any intention of doing it. I'm fiercely loyal. I'd gladly serve in whatever capacity I was needed in. But I've found I'm not welcome in some places, for a multitude of reasons. So I just wait.

I think this is true for so many people. I see it as a hopeful thing that so many serve and/or not serve with such patience and love toward those who refuse to show the same toward them.

It is building within us patience toward others and a spirit that is akin to our Christ.

On those foundations we can go far when the time is right.

[gloryseeker]

The problem is that too many... especially of the passing paradigm... feel that the method is as important as the message.

The method sheds it's skin from time to time. Probably once per generation. The method changes. The error is in seeing people in error for no longer agreeing with the previous method.

I agree with you. The methods do change but the basics don't change. Commitment, loyalty, faithfulness, priority, cleanliness, holiness, sanctification, does not change.

The seeker sensitive church of today has changed the "method" but they also changed the "message" and the "basics" of Christianity. This is why there is such a weak church today.

I am one of those who serves in the current model.

I hold offices. I am a preacher. I have been known to speak at camp meetings and fellowship meetings and will do so again.

I get behind that pulpit and I preach the message. I don't feel that many aspects of the method are the best for our day and hour but I don't see any profit or Godliness in using the pulpit to destroy what is now in place.

Based on scripture it is through the foolishness of preaching that man is saved. You can't change that fact. You can change the delivery style, location, etc but fundamentals are fundamentals

They don't know that I am "one of those". There are many of us who are "one of those". We long for and work toward a different day and yet serve with all our might in this present day. I will never fight the current model but I will be ready when the next model comes to life. I have been ready for years.

Again I agree with you....ouch this post is hurting me :) Music is a prime example. It appears that with each new move of the Spirit a new type of music comes with it. Those that are unwilling to move with the Spirit get stuck in the past. I get that.

What I am against is this new theology that thinks the church has to get or mimic the world in order to be successful or reach a dying generation.

Bottom line is those who do not know Christ have a big gaping hole in their heart. It doesn't matter how good they look on the outside they are hurting and need the truth not some sissy religion. The church is not a petting zoo, it's a place where lives are CHANGED.

Why don't they know that I am one of those? Because those who are sold out to a paradigm judge us too quickly because our methods are different.

Again, I agree with you. Like the old saying the "Prophets of one move of God become the Pharisees of the next move." But this is not my point. My point is that human nature is not difficult to figure out. That's why the devil is so successful because we are all the same.

It's like in politics, people talk about how we have "progressed." We have progressed we are doing the same thing that has been done for centuries. It's just been repacked with new words to describe it.

Because our tree is not planted in their orchard they say our tree is not planted.

Yup...this is very true in OP circles who think that trinitarians are not saved. They've planted the tree different so they are not planted even though they have done a big job in getting this gospel around the world

The bottom line is that God is in control and those who walk with God will see all that God is going to do. God's not "stuck" but there are many Christians who are stuck.

It is amazing that in the day and age we live in that the world knows what the "church" (building) is. They don't confuse it with the bar, the drug store, or the mall. When they get in trouble they know where to run. it is only the modern Christian who is trying to run from it and calling it a God thing.

The sinner who knows that their life needs "fixed", the mother who baby is dying, or the family whose marriage is falling apart doesn't want to run to some guys house down the street and have a Bible study. They run to the preacher who can help them.

We have many people in our town who go to other places to worship because they have all the entertainment or they don't have to give financially or it's convienant. But when they really need help they call us.

God's system works!

[nahkoe]

I believe that you are right, but you also have to look at the "end of the story."

Those same people are typically, unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives.

And I propose that the ones who have, and do, live like this and don't claim a church or organization are refusing to align themselves with churches and organizations that will hold them in their past, in the rut they're already stuck in and working to get out of. Too many churches and congregations are ill prepared to move people from their past to their future.


Again there is some truth in what you are saying. We are seeing the church "change", however the change is producing a very weak Christian who says that they love Jesus but are hopping from bed to bed, drinking, cussings, partying like the world on Saturday and they rejoicing with the worship team on Sunday.

And in what way is the church prepared to deal with people who are coming from a past that's not church based? I don't line up with anyone's idea of what a Christian should look like, but I'm not who I was.

It is totally contrary to the multitude of scripture that talks about being like a "tree planted."

I am like a tree planted. I don't exactly understand how or when that happened, nor do I understand exactly how I can still struggle, and fail, where I do and still be planted. But I do know that I am. I'm definitely not planted within any walls. Some have made it pretty clear I'm not welcome. I decided pretty early on that it's my problem and it's my responsibility to get to where I'm going. I don't claim a church, I don't claim an organization, because I can't risk falling with one of them or being crushed by one while it rises and I struggle to make the next rung of the ladder.

[OnTheFritz]

I believe that you are right, but you also have to look at the "end of the story."

Those same people are typically, unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives.

So while your analysis is probably more right than it is wrong, it is not good. Just look at the "parents" of those who are under 30. They have no parenting skills, their kids are committing suicide at record numbers, on anti depressants, cutting themselves, joining gangs in record numbers, and having sex with everyone around including the same gender.

In my daughter's High School their were 80 pregnant girls. This all comes from some place...it's the theology of this group that you are talking about.



Again there is some truth in what you are saying. We are seeing the church "change", however the change is producing a very weak Christian who says that they love Jesus but are hopping from bed to bed, drinking, cussings, partying like the world on Saturday and they rejoicing with the worship team on Sunday.

It is totally contrary to the multitude of scripture that talks about being like a "tree planted."



The worship of organization is not God's plan. But stability is. What I believe that you will see is that as Isaiah states (60:1-2) while gross darkness covers the world and people their will be a glorious church that arises. One that is committed, loves Jesus more than the world, whose focal point is like the fathers of the faith who are committed to getting God's work wrapped up.

That is a very broad brush you are using. With all due respect, it's simply ignorant to claim that those of my generation are all "typically unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives." simply because they don't view things the way you do. And frankly, it's this "back in my day..." mindset that is unproductive and obnoxious enough to make the change worthwhile :D. There is nothing inherently wrong with a people-based set of loyalites vs.an organization-based one. For instance, I have worked with the same people for nearly 20 years because of personal friendships and loyalties that outlasted many of the organizations of which we were a part. We have seen the abuse that comes from organizations both corporate and religious. And while structure can be good, every once in a while, you need to tear it all down and start over. Clean out the cobwebs and remind those in charge that they are only there because the people put them there.

[*AQuietPlace*]

The sinner who knows that their life needs "fixed", the mother who baby is dying, or the family whose marriage is falling apart doesn't want to run to some guys house down the street and have a Bible study. They run to the preacher who can help them.


I'm not sure this is true. Not unless they were raised in church. Otherwise, the hurting person will reach out so someONE in their life who has demonstrated God's love to them. A person. They don't care if you offer them the help they need while they are sitting in your living room.


God's system works!

But what is God's system?

[nahkoe]

I'm not sure this is true. Not unless they were raised in church. Otherwise, the hurting person will reach out so someONE in their life who has demonstrated God's love to them. A person. They don't care if you offer them the help they need while they are sitting in your living room.

Exactly.

[Raven]

Carpenter
You are exactly right. Change is happening even now and nothing can prevent it. It is all a part of God's process and we must move with it.

Raven

[gloryseeker]

I'm not sure this is true. Not unless they were raised in church. Otherwise, the hurting person will reach out so someONE in their life who has demonstrated God's love to them. A person. They don't care if you offer them the help they need while they are sitting in your living room.

I don't know, look at what happened on 9/11 I didn't hear of one house filling up with people because of the events that took place.

[gloryseeker]

That is a very broad brush you are using. With all due respect, it's simply ignorant to claim that those of my generation are all "typically unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives."

You added the word "all" not me. What would be ignorant is to be blind to our current society. Sorry, but a very high percentage of today's 20 and 30 year old's are just down right flaky.

simply because they don't view things the way you do.

You are lacking the capacity to understand some simple statements. Nothing I said stated or implied that it was based upon agreeing with the way I do things.


And frankly, it's this "back in my day..." mindset that is unproductive and obnoxious enough to make the change worthwhile

Same thing I stated about not being flexible with the times and the moves of the Spirit...I guess you now agree with me. :thumbsup


There is nothing inherently wrong with a people-based set of loyalites vs.an organization-based one.

I don't disagree with that. It's the "loyalty" aspect I was focused on not the organization


For instance, I have worked with the same people for nearly 20 years because of personal friendships and loyalties that outlasted many of the organizations of which we were a part. We have seen the abuse that comes from organizations both corporate and religious. And while structure can be good, every once in a while, you need to tear it all down and start over. Clean out the cobwebs and remind those in charge that they are only there because the people put them there.

Organizations don't abuse they are structures. People abuse therefore the wrong person in authority in organizations or the wrong close friend can have the same devastating affect.

You as well as most deal with the fruit instead of the root.

[gloryseeker]

Too many churches and congregations are ill prepared to move people from their past to their future.

I agree in concept, but because the "church" (assuming you are using that term as structure) doesn't not become qualified because the became "unchurched" just as the "congregation" is people so disassociated themselves from the congregation does not qualify them.

You are focused on the fruit instead of the root. YES, for the most part what is considered the Body of Christ is ill prepared to really help people so the focus should be getting people prepared.

I am like a tree planted. I don't exactly understand how or when that happened, nor do I understand exactly how I can still struggle, and fail, where I do and still be planted. But I do know that I am.

Interesting....Remember John John (JFK's kid) who flew his plane straight into the water? All the gauges on his panel showed he was headed straight towards the water, but he just knew he was flying straight.

You better know when and how you got planted and that nothing can move you

I'm definitely not planted within any walls. Some have made it pretty clear I'm not welcome.

What's one got to do with the other? There are places I'm not welcomed either but all that means is that is not the place for me.


I decided pretty early on that it's my problem and it's my responsibility to get to where I'm going. I don't claim a church, I don't claim an organization, because I can't risk falling with one of them or being crushed by one while it rises and I struggle to make the next rung of the ladder.

I am with you in not wanting to go down with a ship, but my strategy is different....I rather be connected to a ship that is sea worthy then to be treading water by myself

[Jermyn Davidson]

I don't know, look at what happened on 9/11 I didn't hear of one house filling up with people because of the events that took place.

Are you serious?

I just happened to be living in Orlando when 9/11 happened.

It was documented that so many folks turned to "church" and "religion" for assurance during that of trial.


The vandalism of an Islamic worship center and the murder of at least one Middle Eastern man was documented as well, in Orlando.

[OnTheFritz]

You added the word "all" not me. What would be ignorant is to be blind to our current society. Sorry, but a very high percentage of today's 20 and 30 year old's are just down right flaky.



You are lacking the capacity to understand some simple statements. Nothing I said stated or implied that it was based upon agreeing with the way I do things.




Same thing I stated about not being flexible with the times and the moves of the Spirit...I guess you now agree with me. :thumbsup




I don't disagree with that. It's the "loyalty" aspect I was focused on not the organization




Organizations don't abuse they are structures. People abuse therefore the wrong person in authority in organizations or the wrong close friend can have the same devastating affect.

You as well as most deal with the fruit instead of the root.

Can't understand your simple statements? Must be because I'm under 40, huh? It is quite easy, however, to understand your thinly veiled arrogance and know-it-all attitude. I see it all over your posts. :D

You implied "all", and have now shifted to "very high percentage". What a concession. ;)

Moving on.

[EA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1764I6JOmLI

I see the king of glory
Coming on the clouds with fire
The whole earth shakes
The whole earth shakes

Yeeeah

I see his love and mercy
Washing over all our sin
The people sing
The people sing

[Chorus]
Hosanna
Hosanna
Hosanna in the highest [x2]

I see a generation
Rising up to take their place
With selfless faith
With selfless faith

I see a near revival
Stirring as we pray and seek
We're on our knees
We're on our knees

[Chorus]

Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
Show me how to love like you have loved me

Break my heart from what breaks yours
Everything I am for your kingdoms cause
As I go from nothing to
Eternity

[Chorus x2]

Hosanna in the highest

[freeatlast]

Darlene Zhech and Hillsong are great.
A very easy going sound.

[Hoovie]

Darlene Zhech and Hillsong are great.
A very easy going sound.

She was a speaker at some of the classes my wife took at Willow Creek last week. Kristin loved her.

[EA]

Carpenter, the topic of this thread is something that is on my mind almost 24/7.

God is doing a new thing. I want to be a part of it.

Real reformers are, more often than not, persecuted for their attempts at change.

I pray that the generation that follows me never has to deal with the issues my generation has.

IMO, we have been given a raw deal.

The generation before us (THE ELDERS) didn't want to let go of anything, and backed us into a no-win theological quandry.

The generation that is coming after us wants nothing to do with rules based religion. They are leaving it in droves.

Bridging these two group-thinks is much more than difficult.

[Hoovie]

EA, are you saying some things are less than compatible?

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z116/luckysweep/wide-load.jpg

[EA]

Your wife's gonna be mad that you posted that!


lol

[CC1]

The spirit of the age we live in has a lot to do with this. I see a lack of commitment in many aspects of culture, not just the church.

It is a day of self centeredness and narcissism where people do not want any "structure". Anything that might oppose their will and whims is avoided.

I recently was trying to explain to a young person why I had no desire to watch a video clip on the internet of a reportedly very funny but profane song. I was called an old fogey, etc. Those that know me know that by no means am I a prude.I have a dry and somewhat risque sense of humor. However there are lines that are drawn in my mind that I do not cross. I find that many young people today don't have those lines or seemingly any.

For example I will watch "r" rated movies however if it turns out the rating was because of extensive cursing I have an internal filter that knows when the "line" has been reached. If I start watching a film and in the first few minutes my internal filter says "enough, this is too much too filter out and ignore" then the movie gets turned off. I don't see that filtering process in many young people these days.

I think that same "spirit" permeates the church world in the sense that poeple make all kinds of excuses to not get plugged into a church when the real reason is that they don't want to conform their lives to anything other than just what they want to in their own understanding.

I am seeing this in a young person I have known for a long time that I never though would be this way. They have fallen into that oldest of traps where after seeing some less than perfect people and situations in churches they are disillusioned with conventional church and refuse to be a member anywhere.

I have told them that if they are looking for the perfect church and pastor they are delusional because they will never find it. You have to find a church and pastor that you believe preaches and teaches the Bible correctly as close to what you believe is correct as possible then dive in and connect yourself to that church and pastor.

My young friend thinks he is just find missing church most of the time and still considers himself a Christian but he is forgetting where in the Bible it talks about preachers being given the saints for instruction and reproof, etc, etc.

Have I become an ultra con and think people should sumbmit themselves to legalistic overlords? Absolutely not! However everybody needs a body of believers to be accountable to and to grow in the Lord together with. Not to mention a pastor whose vision you can catch and follow him as he follows Christ.

[Hoovie]

Your wife's gonna be mad that you posted that!


lol

You are missing it. This lady's dress code is obviously not compatible with modesty... :spit

[EA]

CC1 has gone over to the dark side!

Oooooooooonoooooooooo!!!!

[EA]

You are missing it. This lady's dress code is obviously not compatible with modesty... :spit


I betcha the first thing that crosses most folks' mind when they see that has nothing to do with her "dress code.":smack

[CC1]

I betcha the first thing that crosses most folks' mind when they see that has nothing to do with her "dress code.":smack

I just felt sorry for the chair! (It brought to mind an incident in Austin, Texas in the mid 80's when while driving near the University of Texas I saw a young woman with a build similar to the pic Eureka posted of that woman on the chair. Only this woman was riding a 10 speed bicycle and the seat was nowehere to be seen!!!!!!

I was haunted by that image for years and as you can see even now around 25 years later it still comes to mind at times.

[EA]

Carpenter, here's my advice, fwiw.

Live life with the future in view.

The echoes of many of the arguments from FCF, NFCF and AFF have been reduced to a whisper as most folks have made up their minds about those issues - and are now implementing life changes based upon the information gathered.

Groups like the ole NFCF "Posse" have faded into oblivion, hiding out in an obscure, irrelevant crack of the world wide web, and the old-timey ways are becoming more and more foreign to even main-line Oneness Pentecostals.

And yet, I am sure that somewhere, fifty years from now, there will be someone bemoaning the loss of "the old paths." Someone like Granny Clampett, who never fully believed that The War Between The States had ended.

She had so segmented herself from society that change simply passed her by, and so she ignorantly kept on fighting a war that had long ago been settled.

Carp, this war will rage for a little while longer and then, poof, it will disappear.

It will soon be forgotten.

People will look back at these forums and laugh at some of the debates.

[EA]

The church is changing.

The way we do church is changing.

But I am not concerned.

God WILL have a church.

[Jaxon]

Interesting....My wife and I talk about this a good bit......One reason is because she is the personnel manager at a business of around 400 plus people and many of those hired are in the 20 - 30 age range..........I'm not trying to use a broad brush but there is no doubt that there is a different mind set in many in this age bracket.......Many, many are easy come easy go. ...Loyalty indeed is a bygone virtue on the job......here today and gone tommorrow and no two week notice, nothing, one day their at work the next day they are gone..............So it's not just a church thing, no, it's something that reaches inot all areas of their lives........You really can't run a business with employess that have this mindset. For any organization to be successful there has to be stability and structure somewhere............And many times this stability and structure is found in the baby boomer and up generation............Whatever happened to being faithful in all areas of our life?

[EA]

Pardon me, but that loyalty thing goes both ways.

Most employers show no loyalty.

[EA]

The most reliable segment of the church I pastor is the twenty-somethings.

[Hoovie]

OK I will be serious - for a minute at least.

What CC1 posted is exactly what UPC hardliners hope to avoid by towing the line with something approaching counter culture.

The spirit of the age (Zeitgeist in German) is not favorable to anything absolute - therefore the church needs a clear sound, they reason - a black and white for everything.

A pastor that not only has rules but revels in drawing distinctions between those real Christians that follow the code and those who are "compromisers".

In fairness to those of this mindset - IT DOES WORK for some people. However, I do not think it ever makes for a very strong body.

[berkeley]

great thread

[Jaxon]

Indeed , the "spirit of the age" runs from absolutes. But, again this is not just a "church" thing.......It's in the news everyday, everywhere.......People don't want anybody to define anything that is counter to what they believe.......I don't see anything new about that........History repeats itself

[Aquila]

I don't know, look at what happened on 9/11 I didn't hear of one house filling up with people because of the events that took place.

Actually... statistical analysis has shown that the church attendance is now lower than it was in 2001. We saw a surge that passed. Most who came to church found it disappointing because it was too "institutionalized", too "programmed", and too political. If you study the house church movement, it began to see growth in the United States as traditional church attendance began dropping. People are turning to more holistic and organic forms of Christianity. It's not an "organization", it's a spiritual movement being shared by more Americans than you think. In fact if two or more Christians meet, share the Word, and pray together at home they are essentially "house churching". This is becoming more and more common to do regularly. In fact the vast majority of Americans (across all denominations) who believe the Bible and admit to being Christian... don't go to church regularly. They admit that they read devotionals, listen to Christian music, and "hang out with other Christians", though they don't go to church. In a sense... the majority of Americans house church.

But all that isn't the point. The point is... unlike the current system that so many adore, it's not about numbers. It's about a "way of life". Many families, even Apostolics (and perhaps some are posting on this site) have decided that the instutional church isn't meeting their spiritual needs and have chosen to simply read, study, worship, and witness at home, in the care, or when at a cafe. It's "Christianity without walls". They aren't focused on filling houses, or buildings, or organizations. They are focused on propagating a Christian way of life where everyone's calling is realized, without the abuses, extortion, and hurt caused by the institutional or traditional churches.

[Aquila]

Can't understand your simple statements? Must be because I'm under 40, huh? It is quite easy, however, to understand your thinly veiled arrogance and know-it-all attitude. I see it all over your posts. :D

You implied "all", and have now shifted to "very high percentage". What a concession. ;)

Moving on.

People like him hate our generation and see nothing good in us.. and there are too many like him. That's why so many of us are choosing not to sit under their bully pulpits. ;)

[*AQuietPlace*]

I don't know, look at what happened on 9/11 I didn't hear of one house filling up with people because of the events that took place.
Just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. :)

It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that there were many house prayer meetings during those days. And in-home Bible studies, etc.

[Aquila]

Carpenter, the topic of this thread is something that is on my mind almost 24/7.

God is doing a new thing. I want to be a part of it.

Real reformers are, more often than not, persecuted for their attempts at change.

I pray that the generation that follows me never has to deal with the issues my generation has.

IMO, we have been given a raw deal.

The generation before us (THE ELDERS) didn't want to let go of anything, and backed us into a no-win theological quandry.

The generation that is coming after us wants nothing to do with rules based religion. They are leaving it in droves.

Bridging these two group-thinks is much more than difficult.

I was in church a few weeks back and heard a pastor I truly love and respect preaching about how we need to win our world to Christ. He was crying and snotting all over the place. It was moving. He was also talking about how we need more churches and more efforts to reach the lost. Again, it was moving. But it was all a show. I think he means it on an emotional level... but when it comes down to where the rubber meets the road he doesn't mean what he's saying. Why? There are 5 men that I know of that are qualified to pastor who have served in his church for nearly 10-15. Of these five 2 have licenses. They have begged, pleaded, threatened, tried to negotiate, you name it... he will not release them. He keeps them jumping hoops with one ministry or another while the fire of their God given vision is dying inside them. I was in a men's group meeting and I just had to say something. The pastor made a remark about sending men of God and daughter churches, I just laughed a little and he asked me why I laughed. I said, "Because there are men in this church who are more than ready to start a daughter work under you... but you won't release them. As sure as I sit here right now, in two years, there will not be a daughter work and those very same men will be sitting on the very same pews just as frustrated as they are today... and there will not be a single daughter work." You could have heard a pen drop. He closed the meeting and asked to see me in his office. There he lectured me about respecting his "authority". I got the message. I've not done that kind of thing again. But... it's been five years. No daughter work. Those five men? Well 4 are still jumping through hoops and one actually left to follow the call of God without the Pastor's blessing.

They are going to die with their music inside them.

[EA]

I was in church a few weeks back and heard a pastor I truly love and respect preaching about how we need to win our world to Christ. He was crying and snotting all over the place. It was moving. He was also talking about how we need more churches and more efforts to reach the lost. Again, it was moving. But it was all a show. I think he means it on an emotional level... but when it comes down to where the rubber meets the road he doesn't mean what he's saying. Why? There are 5 men that I know of that are qualified to pastor who have served in his church for nearly 10-15. Of these five 2 have licenses. They have begged, pleaded, threatened, tried to negotiate, you name it... he will not release them. He keeps them jumping hoops with one ministry or another while the fire of their God given vision is dying inside them. I was in a men's group meeting and I just had to say something. The pastor made a remark about sending men of God and daughter churches, I just laughed a little and he asked me why I laughed. I said, "Because there are men in this church who are more than ready to start a daughter work under you... but you won't release them. As sure as I sit here right now, in two years, there will not be a daughter work and those very same men will be sitting on the very same pews just as frustrated as they are today... and there will not be a single daughter work." You could have heard a pen drop. He closed the meeting and asked to see me in his office. There he lectured me about respecting his "authority". I got the message. I've not done that kind of thing again. But... it's been five years. No daughter work. Those five men? Well 4 are still jumping through hoops and one actually left to follow the call of God without the Pastor's blessing.

They are going to die with their music inside them.

I see this type of thing often.

Who is more to blame, the pastor, or the men who lack the ..... to get out on their own - with or without some sort of mystic "blessing?"

Real leaders find a way to live out their calling.

And btw, I am not excusing that pastor.

[berkeley]

I see this type of thing often.

Who is more to blame, the pastor, or the men who lack the ..... to get out on their own - with or without some sort of mystic "blessing?"

Real leaders find a way to live out their calling.

And btw, I am not excusing that pastor.

And it all goes back to "submit to my authority"
and "if I feel that it's time for you to move on, I'll let you know"

this one is my fav:
"If I guide you in the wrong direction, God will honor you and bless you for respecting my authority"

[berkeley]

Aquila,

I love the "Christianity without Walls" concept. IMO, it should be the norm asside from the "Christianity with Walls." Pastors are supposed to feed the sheep with knowledge and understanding. The job of the ministry within the walls is to equip the saints to live outside of the walls. Bear with me, I am just a simple minded guy from the fertile valleys of California.

[Aquila]

The spirit of the age we live in has a lot to do with this. I see a lack of commitment in many aspects of culture, not just the church.

It is a day of self centeredness and narcissism where people do not want any "structure". Anything that might oppose their will and whims is avoided.



You've made some very good points. But I think for some it's an issue of they just want Christian simplicity. For the first 300 years or so of Christianity we didn't have big buildings or professional elders. The office of "elder" or "pastor" was a calling on an individual with the gift to pastor... it wasn't an office held by one man governing about 150 people in a big building. Christians gathered in homes, fields, catacombs, and safe public places. Each gathering or "assembly" may contain four or five brothers who had the gift to pastor and advise other Christians. Most, like Paul, opened their homes regularly to teach the Word of God. Paul describes how church should be done in I Corinthians 14, take into consideration this was all done while gathered in someone's home...

I Corinthians 14:26-33 (NIV)
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

The Christians in Paul's day were admonished that when they came together everyone should have a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Paul makes the point that everyone should come to the gathering with something to give and edify the body spiritually. If someone has an utterance from the Lord in tongues, that is fine, however, such utterances should only be done by two or at most by three, one at a time, and one should interpret. If the gift of interpretation wasn't present they should become quiet and pray. In each gathering two or three elders were to be the primary teachers. And if someone in the group has a revelation, or a thought to share, whoever is speaking was to stop and allow the brother with the thought to share to speak. This was so that ALL might prophesy in turn and so that all might be encouraged. Those brothers who truly have a prophetic gift are to remain subject to the three governing elders who guided the meeting, instructed, and made corrections leading one into a better understanding of Christ.

Many read this and hunger for this kind of organic simplicity. I'd much rather attend a small gathering where everyone was able to contribute their understanding and the entire group can be edified by each other. Today, I go to church and I stare at the back of someone's head. I look to my side and see a row of noses. We're all quiet, expecting a paid professional to deliver "something" that might apply to our lives. And oh yea... most want it to be entertaining, humorous at times, and captivating. The more charismatic he is... the more anointed most think he is. We break his monologue when cued by the organ or when we hear that "inflection" that tells us "it's time to get up and shout". And the music is moving. We have a team of trained volunteers. They are wonderful. But they don't always sing the song that's on some of our hearts... and it's rare or next to never when a layman stands and says, "I have this song that's been on my heart all day. I'd like to share it...I don't want to sing it alone....please sing it with me."

It just seems like it turns ministry and corporate worship into a spectator sport.

The first church spread like wildfire. Never had there been such power and growth. How did they do it without all the buildings, programs, paid professionals, musical teams, etc?

I do believe that Christians should meet and edify one another. I just don't think it has to be in a building filled with a couple hundred people, with a service led by a paid professional. It can be in a living room over coffee with a hand full of Christian friends and family. Those who have the calling and understanding can guide the meeting, advise, and counsel. If one person is hurting... all can weep with them. When one person is celebrating all can celebrate with them. Everyone can share something the Lord has laid upon their hearts. You'd be amazed how often in house church gatherings over half of the group will have had the Lord lay the same instruction or issue on their hearts. Sometimes it's about an unknown issue one is wrestling or struggling with. It's a sobering moment of spiritual confirmation that God is moving in our midst.

This can take place in homes, restaurants, coffee houses, taverns, parks, ... you name it. There are no "members". Everyone is free to move about as they please. Some visit to get the fellowship they don't get in their bigger traditional churches. They are free to come and go. Some work odd hours or because of work can't attend church on Sunday's or Wednesdays... so they visit on their off days with the elder of the home. They are free to come and go.

It's not about a new structure or system... it's about a new way of actually living Christianity on the front lines without walls. It's about a Christianity that more resembles a family than an institution.

The Lord's Supper is celebrated in earnest... not with the Catholic Communion ceremony that even most Apostolic churches have with the wafer and thimble of grape juice. It's a full meal wherein the gathering looks forward to the day when we will sup with Jesus in the Kingdom. It opens with a prayer. A single loaf of bread and a decanter of wine is blessed; and the body and blood are called to mind as the loaf is passed from person to person and all tearing off a piece of it. While tearing this single loaf to pieces it's not uncommon for one to start crying. As the wine is passed... the tears turn to joy and our atonement is remembered. The meal is often lively and filled with laughter. It's not uncommon for the conversation to become a house church service over the meal with the elders teaching and brothers sharing their insights.

I love the house church meetings I've attended. I would like to go more but my obligations to work and traditional church often keep me too busy.

If I were Satan... I'd pray we stayed in our safe traditional churches. They provide a significant amount of distraction for most Christians and it breeds an entertain me spirit where the saints are lulled into being a sanctified audience applauding a paid hireling.

I don't fault pastors of traditional churches and their uneasiness with the simple church movement. I mean... most of these men have made a career out of it. They have everything to loose should this catch on significantly in their community. I had a pastor who I talked to about the house church movement say to me, "If I were a house church pastor, how would I support my family?" I just smiled and said, "I believe if that's what a man is called to do, God will provide." I wanted to say, "Get a job!" ;)

[*AQuietPlace*]

I think it's very clear when you read the New Testament that our model is not based on the biblical model.

For instance, this part:


29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

Who is weighing carefully what is said? Who is going to object if they weigh, and come up short? These days, no one is going to correct "the pastor" if they feel he is wrong. There is no one in the church to do so. Or as the KJV says - 'to judge'.

Or:

James 5:14 (English Standard Version)

14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him,(A) anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Our New Modern Version would have to read: if anyone is sick, let him call the pastor.

The NT model seemed to be based upon a group of men who led the church. Not just one man.

[CC1]

OK I will be serious - for a minute at least.

What CC1 posted is exactly what UPC hardliners hope to avoid by towing the line with something approaching counter culture.

The spirit of the age (Zeitgeist in German) is not favorable to anything absolute - therefore the church needs a clear sound, they reason - a black and white for everything.

A pastor that not only has rules but revels in drawing distinctions between those real Christians that follow the code and those who are "compromisers".

In fairness to those of this mindset - IT DOES WORK for some people. However, I do not think it ever makes for a very strong body.


Eureka, I think you have brought up a very important point. An emphasis on the legalism (enforced distinctives) does provide a pastor with a false comfort zone.

The clothesline dress code provides an instant visual feeback to a preacher where he can judge (no matter how falsely) the success of his preaching and the status of his saints with God.

That is a natural reaction to an age that spurns absolutes but it is not the right one. The absolutes that pastors should be interested in are Biblical principles. In particular God's moral code and life principles.

If one preaches God's morality and other Christian principles such as love, faithfulness, mercy, servanthood, longsuffering, etc, etc and then equip the saints with the Word, the knowledge of how to have a good prayer life, guidance into Holy Spirit Baptism with empowerment to do right - then a preacher will have a committed saint who will willingly serve God and be a part of the church.

[gloryseeker]

People like him hate our generation and see nothing good in us.. and there are too many like him. That's why so many of us are choosing not to sit under their bully pulpits. ;)

You are totally wrong on that because I am at the top end of that generation. It's the times that we are living in and the spirit that is at work in this generation.

But hey...that's par for the course....just be not deceived because God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also receive...this generation is sowing more to the flesh and they will see major destruction, it's Bible

[MamaHen]

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

<snip>

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

Very interesting post Carpenter. I don't post on here very often myself - I visit and read, but don't post much. (And I rarely read a whole thread as they tend to explode...) This is some serious food for thought. I think things are coming full circle, and many are going back to the beginning. The VERY beginning. Before the days of organizations and buildings and acronyms and slogans..... I think people are looking to the New Testament, not just for the doctrine and the plan of salvation, but for the blueprint of what church is to begin with. The People. The Ekklesia.

In my humble opinion. :-)

[gloryseeker]

The church is changing.

The way we do church is changing.

But I am not concerned.

God WILL have a church.

That's the bottom line!

[gloryseeker]

Interesting....My wife and I talk about this a good bit......One reason is because she is the personnel manager at a business of around 400 plus people and many of those hired are in the 20 - 30 age range..........I'm not trying to use a broad brush but there is no doubt that there is a different mind set in many in this age bracket.......Many, many are easy come easy go. ...Loyalty indeed is a bygone virtue on the job......here today and gone tommorrow and no two week notice, nothing, one day their at work the next day they are gone..............So it's not just a church thing, no, it's something that reaches inot all areas of their lives........You really can't run a business with employess that have this mindset. For any organization to be successful there has to be stability and structure somewhere............And many times this stability and structure is found in the baby boomer and up generation............Whatever happened to being faithful in all areas of our life?

This is my point exactly that Fritz and Aquilla missed yet land blasted me for.

This disloyalty runs in all areas because on the flip side the businesses are not faithful to their employees either. It is almost a catch 22.

I remember when I was in management we were about to send a girl off to a manager in training school, but I knew that she didn't plan to be around much longer. I was talking to an area manager over me about it because I figured why spend over a thousand dollars on an employee who wasn't staying. His response, "people use corporations and corporations use people, don't worry about it."

[gloryseeker]

I think it's very clear when you read the New Testament that our model is not based on the biblical model.

For instance, this part:


29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

Who is weighing carefully what is said? Who is going to object if they weigh, and come up short?

Does the scripture say to "object" or is it whether you take the word and run with it personally. Remember that Paul also said that things are to be done decently and in order.

These days, no one is going to correct "the pastor" if they feel he is wrong. There is no one in the church to do so. Or as the KJV says - 'to judge'.

consider the scenario, Pastor George teaches something, but parishioner Greg disagrees so he "corrects", but Granny Smith who has been in church for 332 years is going to set both straight...where does it end and who is right.

There is a difference between discussion and correction and doing it in an orderly way.

If you have no level of authority then there is going to be total confusion, plus without clearly defined levels of authority then wolves can more easily come in.

We had a lady who came in a few weeks back that claimed to have a healing ministry. Said everyone she works with gets healed. Come to find out she was a hypnotist. Her "correction" would be very different than the ones who lead the church. Sad to say, some were initially swayed and was going to subject themselves to it, but because they had respect for the pastorate they were kept on course.

[Carpenter]

That's the bottom line!

I suppose some will deal with the change in paradigm hoping their emotional response will strengthen the church after all, that is the Apostolic way. Others will lay aside aspects of culture and tradition in order to strengthen the body of Christ.

[rgcraig]

I think it's time WE get out of the way and let God do it HIS way!!

[tbpew]

I think it's time WE get out of the way and let God do it HIS way!!
and I think the dynamic of doing this will require that we settle if really believe that God is building his own house that we can find shelter in; OR men are actually building God's house for him.

You can rebut my statement with "God is using us to build his own house" but I would counter with a view that says, "we have not entered into his rest if we are building God's habitation".

If I find a great retreat cabin in the woods by a lake and I guide other people to what I have found....I am not the builder or maker of the refuge.

[rgcraig]

and I think the dynamic of doing this will require that we settle if really believe that God is building his own house that we can find shelter in; OR men are actually building God's house for him.

You can rebut my statement with "God is using us to build his own house" but I would counter with a view that says, "we have not entered into his rest if we are building God's habitation".

If I find a great retreat cabin in the woods by a lake and I guide other people to what I have found....I am not the builder or maker of the refuge.

I couldn't agree with you more!!

God can't get done what he needs done because we keep trying to do it for him.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Does the scripture say to "object" or is it whether you take the word and run with it personally. Remember that Paul also said that things are to be done decently and in order.



consider the scenario, Pastor George teaches something, but parishioner Greg disagrees so he "corrects", but Granny Smith who has been in church for 332 years is going to set both straight...where does it end and who is right.

There is a difference between discussion and correction and doing it in an orderly way.

If you have no level of authority then there is going to be total confusion, plus without clearly defined levels of authority then wolves can more easily come in.

We had a lady who came in a few weeks back that claimed to have a healing ministry. Said everyone she works with gets healed. Come to find out she was a hypnotist. Her "correction" would be very different than the ones who lead the church. Sad to say, some were initially swayed and was going to subject themselves to it, but because they had respect for the pastorate they were kept on course.
I didn't mention doing things disorderly.

It seems to me from reading those scriptures that a group of men would lead, and if one of the men got way off base, the other men would be there to provide balance.

I didn't mean someone should speak up right then. :)

[Aquila]

You are totally wrong on that because I am at the top end of that generation. It's the times that we are living in and the spirit that is at work in this generation.

But hey...that's par for the course....just be not deceived because God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also receive...this generation is sowing more to the flesh and they will see major destruction, it's Bible

Gloryseeker, you're words certainly don't sound very loving. They sound sharp and condemnatory.

[Aquila]

Does the scripture say to "object" or is it whether you take the word and run with it personally. Remember that Paul also said that things are to be done decently and in order.

consider the scenario, Pastor George teaches something, but parishioner Greg disagrees so he "corrects", but Granny Smith who has been in church for 332 years is going to set both straight...where does it end and who is right.

There is a difference between discussion and correction and doing it in an orderly way.

If you have no level of authority then there is going to be total confusion, plus without clearly defined levels of authority then wolves can more easily come in.

Good points. Paul resolved that. Paul wrote,

I Corinthians 14:29-33 (NIV)
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

What Paul is saying is that two (or three) elders should be the primary teachers guiding the meeting. The others should listen to their teaching and weigh carefully what is being taught. Not to judge or correct it... but to weigh it carefully so as to heed what's being taught and apply it to their lives. Yes, if they have an additional insight or a question, they are free to share it. However, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. The two (or three) elders have the final say on all matters of teaching.

We had a lady who came in a few weeks back that claimed to have a healing ministry. Said everyone she works with gets healed. Come to find out she was a hypnotist. Her "correction" would be very different than the ones who lead the church. Sad to say, some were initially swayed and was going to subject themselves to it, but because they had respect for the pastorate they were kept on course.

This reminds me of another verse indicating how church was done in the first century...

2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

The three elders in a house church are charged to quickly dismiss anyone who is teaching error. A pastor can run into trouble if he tells a person to leave a meeting open to the public. However, if I'm having a gathering of believers in my living room and one introduces false teaching, I'm free to try to correct an honest error, or i can stand and invite them to leave immediately if they have an agenda.

[OnTheFritz]

People like him hate our generation and see nothing good in us.. and there are too many like him. That's why so many of us are choosing not to sit under their bully pulpits. ;)

Yes. And I realize I probably over-reacted to this whole thing, but it really drives me nuts. Trying to lighten up now.... :nah
:thumbsup

[mizpeh]

I think it's very clear when you read the New Testament that our model is not based on the biblical model.

For instance, this part:


29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

Who is weighing carefully what is said? Who is going to object if they weigh, and come up short? These days, no one is going to correct "the pastor" if they feel he is wrong. There is no one in the church to do so. Or as the KJV says - 'to judge'.

Or:

James 5:14 (English Standard Version)

14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him,(A) anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Our New Modern Version would have to read: if anyone is sick, let him call the pastor.

The NT model seemed to be based upon a group of men who led the church. Not just one man.

Why do you think a pastor is the same thing as a prophet?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Why do you think a pastor is the same thing as a prophet?
I don't, necessarily, but 'pastor' seems to be about the only role we have now. Other than traveling evangelists. Some churches will have other ministers who occasionally give a sermon, but in the churches I've been in they don't really have any authority.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I don't, necessarily, but 'pastor' seems to be about the only role we have now. Other than traveling evangelists. Some churches will have other ministers who occasionally give a sermon, but in the churches I've been in they don't really have any authority.

Funny, I think there are too many folks running around calling themselves "Prophet" and "Prophetess".

[gloryseeker]

I didn't mention doing things disorderly.



Yeah, I know you didn't mention that...I was just taking your line of thought and continuing into the confusion that could be caused

[Jaxon]

OK......This will etiher work or it won't.......And just as it was mentioned in the book of Acts...."let them be...if it's of God you can't stop it....if God's not in it it will come to naught.............If someone wants to do something and they have much determination you're not going to stop them..........Time will tell all things.

[Digging4Truth]

OK......This will etiher work or it won't.......And just as it was mentioned in the book of Acts...."let them be...if it's of God you can't stop it....if God's not in it it will come to naught.............If someone wants to do something and they have much determination you're not going to stop them..........Time will tell all things.

An excellent suggestion.

[Michlow]

I believe that you are right, but you also have to look at the "end of the story."

Those same people are typically, unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives.



The spirit of the age we live in has a lot to do with this. I see a lack of commitment in many aspects of culture, not just the church.

It is a day of self centeredness and narcissism where people do not want any "structure". Anything that might oppose their will and whims is avoided.



Give them something worth belonging to / believing in / committing to and you might be surprised!

Why would someone submit to someone they don't respect? Why would they want to be a part of something that they can't 100% believe in?

Is it self-centered to want to retain your own identity? It's not about being told what to do, it's about being told who to be!

Being told to praise, worship, follow, serve, love, submit to God, etc. are fine with me. It's when you tell me that your way of doing so, is the only acceptable way, that we start to have problems.

[Rhoni]

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

There is a young man in our local UPC here, who I observed to be totally plugged in and appearing to be a member of the establishment (20th century thinking on my part), only when I had an opportunity to speak to him he told me, I don't consider myself Pentecostal or Apostolic, or even a member of The Blue Peaks and Green Valleys UPC Tabernacle.

I was stunned really but when I began to think about it, I bet not even the pastor knows this...and I bet he isn't the only one.

There is a reconing to be had here soon, and the hard liners can puff and groan, and call me all manner of sordid names, but I am not thinking it will have much affect on you beyond observation from your wheelchairs... :D

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

Carpenter,

Yes, I believe you are right. There is very little loyalty to a church or organization, as well as a place of employment or professional organizations. There are a couple reasons for this, in my opinion of course:
1. There is little to no loyalty from the top down. Pastors, CEO's, supervisors, and middle management are only concerned about you in relation to how it affects them.
2. Many of us have learned that we are replaceable, therefore we feel they are replaceable also.
3. Our lives are more about survival now and not about how things in our lives benefit the church or ministries. We used to go to nightly revivals and put vacations and other things on hold. Today we need vacations not only from work, but from church so we can get some rest.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Blessings, Rhonda