Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

[moniker]

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes...

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

4. Why are Apostolics territorial?

5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?

[Justin]

:popcorn2

[Michael The Disciple]

Being Apostolic myself I cant think of any Jesus name people I hate.

[ManOfWord]

Fear & insecurity of their own salvation. :D

[commonsense]

Not sure I'd use the word hatred. Maybe it's more pride or ego and the inability to share.
Just like little kids have to one up everyone. It seems that if there is more than one Apostolic church in a town, they have to be the best. No sharing. Their doctrine and standards are the "right" ones, etc.

I know in many cities the local assemblies do not fellowship each other.

For unknown reasons "our" churches are easily threatened (by each other!)


Over simplification, yes; but true!

[*AQuietPlace*]

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

I don't think I would call it hatred, but there is definitely a lot of divisiveness. People seem to have a hard time fellowshipping people that don't believe things pretty much like they do, even if they agree on baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I'm not sure why.

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

Because we have so much invested in being "right". In having "the truth". We don't want the boat rocked. When people start 'questioning' they often end up leaving their church, so we've drawn the conclusion that questioning is bad. You should just accept the truth, and not argue with it. Questioning is a sign that your heart is getting cold, and you're drifting from the truth.

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

If we do, it is probably because we're spirit-filled, so we know there is a realm out there beyond just the natural that we can see.

4. Why are Apostolics territorial?

Is this exclusive to Apostolics?

5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?

Introversion. Exclusiveness.

[freeatlast]

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes...

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

division/hatred..close cousins I guess. We ALL think we are the ones that got it right.

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

cuz it so often leads people to differnet conclusions about "THE DOCTRINE"

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

Ignorance! The Debil gets blamed for everything. Truth be he has no power in the life of the blood bouhgt. 95% of what we blame on the devil, the poor guy just had nothing to do with it.

4. Why are Apostolics territorial?
That's greed, pure and simple. What is not greed is fear. Fear that my saints will like this other church/pastor better than me.

5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?

Introversion, if I have to choose between those two.

There ya go moniker...anything else ya want to know?

[OnTheFritz]

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes...

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

I don't think it's hatred, I think it's more like disgust. I think many view the term "Apostolic" as a brand - or a badge of honor. So when people with lower standards tarnish the brand by watering it down, it makes people angry that their badge of honor holds less value. That's why we all get into arguments about what the term "apostolic" and "pentecostal" really means and who it classifies.

[Hoovie]

I don't think it's hatred, I think it's more like disgust. I think many view the term "Apostolic" as a brand - or a badge of honor. So when people with lower standards tarnish the brand by watering it down, it makes people angry that their badge of honor holds less value. That's why we all get into arguments about what the term "apostolic" and "pentecostal" really means and who it classifies.

Well said. :thumbsup

[Jermyn Davidson]

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes..

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

A) Hatred is not the right word. I think the exclusiveness of our doctrine sometimes attract (more often breed) a certain type of people that thrive on being exclusive-- causing an oversompetitive spirit to develop between otherwise godly Pastors and their flocks.

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

A) Broad and groundless generalization.

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

A) Acknowledging there is a dark spiritual realm is not superstitious, but there are a few "spooooky Pentecostals" out there-- Maybe they are spooky because they have a lot of time on their hands.


4. Why are Apostolics territorial?

A) I don't know. I think that church planning and planting should be in a way that makes good sense. This is a far cry from being territorial.


5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?



A) Introversion!




Good questions.

[GraceAmazing]

I don't think it's hatred, I think it's more like disgust. I think many view the term "Apostolic" as a brand - or a badge of honor. So when people with lower standards tarnish the brand by watering it down, it makes people angry that their badge of honor holds less value. That's why we all get into arguments about what the term "apostolic" and "pentecostal" really means and who it classifies.


Now that's what I call "spot on"! Very well said and when you read it, you make something so complicated seem so simple! :thumbsup

[OnTheFritz]

Now that's what I call "spot on"! Very well said and when you read it, you make something so complicated seem so simple! :thumbsup

Aw shucks.... :D

[GraceAmazing]

I mean that...you really simplified something that at times seems SOOO complex. It really isn't complex....maybe that's what we need to focus on and remember!!! Jesus did it simple, why can't we????

[OnTheFritz]

I mean that...you really simplified something that at times seems SOOO complex. It really isn't complex....maybe that's what we need to focus on and remember!!! Jesus did it simple, why can't we????

Thanks. :thumbsup

What still makes it kinda complicated IMO, though, is figuring out who's right. That's where we get into gray areas. There is something to be said for being associated with a group of like minded people - with a label that actually means something to define them. But there is also something to be said for not letting labels drive us apart over non-critical issues.

[Praxeas]

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes...

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

4. Why are Apostolics territorial?

5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?
why are Christians murderers....hello? Nice sweeping generalization, SOME...SOME...use the word SOME

[Hoovie]

Hatred is not the right word. I think the exclusiveness of our doctrine sometimes attract (more often breed) a certain type of people that thrive on being exclusive-- causing an overcompetitive spirit to develop between otherwise godly Pastors and their flocks.


Indeed. You said a mouthful here. "Exclusiveness" is not exactly a Christian attribute within the body.

[staysharp]

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes...

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

4. Why are Apostolics territorial?

5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?

The above are not solely related to Apostolics or Pentecostals. Have you ever seen the Baptists fight?

However, IMO the behavioral issues related to the religious groups you mention is a direct result of not properly understanding the simplicity of the gospel and functioning in Christ.

Any person regardless of religious affiliation who does not solely place their faith in Christ and His work will struggle with the sin nature.

[Falla39]

IF ...? there is hatred among Apostolics, it is simply because the love of God is NOT
shed abroad in hearts and lives! God is LOVE and if we have GOD in us, we should
be showing forth HIS LOVE. If we don't have LOVE, we don't have GOD!

Romans 5:4,5-

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Blessings,

Falla39

[Falla39]

1John 4:7-21 NIV:

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.

18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us.

20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

[Timmy]

:popcorn2 :popcorn2 :popcorn2 :popcorn2 :popcorn2

[Sister Alvear]

The choice to love is ours...

[ILG]

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes...

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

As many have said, I also think the word hatred is too strong. There are people who love each other and are in the same families that feel the feelings you are describing here and they do not hate each other. However, the Apostolic church, in my opinion, is built upon having the "right" interpretation of the Bible. People are extremely concerned about being "right" believing that it can make or break their salvation. When your salvation hinges upon having the "right" doctrines and doing the "right" things, anyone who does not agree with this "right" interpretation and do these "right" things becomes a suspected apostate who could hinder not only their own salvation but yours if you allow your love for them to take you down the "wrong path". Therefore I think what you are seeing is based upon what people call their "love for God and the truth" which in Apostolic circles is held higher than human relationships.

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

The Bible says to be careful of science "falsely so-called". Apostolics believe that knowledge can be dangerous like the "knowledge of good and evil" that Adam and Eve came upon and that knowledge must always be weighed against what they believe the Bible to say. For example, I have seen science hailed when it was used to prove that red lips invoke a sexual response in men thereby backing up the belief that lipstick is evil. However, if science backs up something that strictly goes against Apostolic beliefs, since spirituality and being saved and being "right" always is top priority, the science always gets second place and will be downright thrown out if it is seen as drawing someone away from "the truth" and salvation. Many times people must choose between what they believe is salvation and science which is why higher education is not as highly esteemed in Apostolic circles and some other conservative groups. It is a matter of priority. Salvation always comes first. This can sometimes become circular though because it is based on what is believed brings salvation and so sometimes one's own personal perception is actually thrown out in fear of seeing differently which could cause what one thinks is eternal hell and it would also cause social ostracization.

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

When you read the Bible, you see the devil being cast out in a number of places. Then, when a person has the experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost and it is a very real and life changing experience, a person then has to think about how to weigh what is evil. There are varying degrees to which people give attention to the devil in the Apostolic church. Usually, the more attention that is given to it, the greater likelihood of emotional instability.

4. Why are Apostolics territorial?

This has somewhat to do with the ministerial ethics in the manual. Ministers are taught ethics to the T in some churches, other ministers are taught little to nothing about them. If ministerial ethics were taught and used everywhere, it may just be seen as a matter of respect and formality. However, a big problem comes in with elitism and the belief that the "truth" is more important than ministerial ethics. Once again, it is the belief that being "right" is always more important for salvation and human relationships are diminished. Ministerial ethics are based on respect, being "right and "saved" is based on what one believes about the Bible and is held in higher esteem than anything else including respect for your fellow minister.

5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?

I am not altogether clear on what is meant by Emerging Church...I understand it as a movement, so I won't answer this question.

[moniker]

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes...

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

4. Why are Apostolics territorial?

5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?


Anyone else?

[KWSS1976]

I would not say hatred to harsh of a word they seem like good people the apostolics do they just interpret some of the scriptures wrong sometimes ...LOL

[mfblume]

I honestly saw more animosity between apostolics, not all though, than any group I have witnessed before. And I think it is the legalistic strain through many people involved in it. Legalism, as Paul explained, leads to works of the flesh. And hatred is a big work of the flesh. It just goes with legalistic territory. Again, not all apostolics are legalists. But you will find animosity amongst those that are everytime.

Concentrating upon the outward so much is concentration on flesh. And fleshly-mindedness simply goes hand in hand with animosity and works of the flesh. Gal 5 implies that when Paul stated those who get steeped in legalism better watch out that they do not bite and devour one another.

[moniker]

I honestly saw more animosity between apostolics, not all though, than any group I have witnessed before. And I think it is the legalistic strain through many people involved in it. Legalism, as Paul explained, leads to works of the flesh. And hatred is a big work of the flesh. It just goes with legalistic territory. Again, not all apostolics are legalists. But you will find animosity amongst those that are everytime.

Concentrating upon the outward so much is concentration on flesh. And fleshly-mindedness simply goes hand in hand with animosity and works of the flesh. Gal 5 implies that when Paul stated those who get steeped in legalism better watch out that they do not bite and devour one another.

Interesting observation. I've never thought of it that way.

[Sam]

Why is there so much infidelity among Apostolics?

Why is there so much child abuse (physical, mental, sexual) among Apostolics?

Why is there so much spousal abuse among Apostolics?

Why is there so much gluttony among Apostolics?

Why is there so much disregard for civil law (traffic laws, tax laws, etc) among Apostolics?

Why is there so much dishonesty among Apostolics?

Why is there so much teen age pregnancy among Apostolics?

Why is there so much ............. among Apostolics?


Because Apostolics are human just like everyone else.

["GL"]

You've painted apostolics with an amazingly broad brush. It seems you're working from a very narrow viewpoint. I feel your post could be broadened to all of Christianity. Even at that, it should be prefaced with "some," rather than the inferred "all." Christians are humans. And humans are pretty lousy, much of the time.

...1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

Please keep in mind, this forum is not representative of all apostolics. In comparison to other movements, I've seen very little "hatred." To be truly apostolic, is to love.

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?
If you're speaking of carnal reasoning, the scripture says that the carnal mind is hostile toward the things of God. It cannot submit to the laws of God. Christianity is a faith. It cannot fit neatly within the realm of reason. "Intellectualism" can become a religion all to itself.

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious? Most do not. I guess it all depends upon what you deem as "inordinate." For instance, modern witchcraft has roots in paganism. That is a very antibiblical practice. So I would not deem it inappropriate for any Christian to teach against it, just as the scriptures do.


4. Why are Apostolics territorial? Some are and some are not. I've met more who are not, than those who are fiercly territorial. On the other hand, I've noticed the same territorial approach in the non-Christian world. You can see it in most outside sales forces. Some people are just extremely competitive.


5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion? Both are threats. Introversion is an enemy of the church, as is a Christianity without absolutes.

[Raven]

I honestly saw more animosity between apostolics, not all though, than any group I have witnessed before. And I think it is the legalistic strain through many people involved in it. Legalism, as Paul explained, leads to works of the flesh. And hatred is a big work of the flesh. It just goes with legalistic territory. Again, not all apostolics are legalists. But you will find animosity amongst those that are everytime.

Concentrating upon the outward so much is concentration on flesh. And fleshly-mindedness simply goes hand in hand with animosity and works of the flesh. Gal 5 implies that when Paul stated those who get steeped in legalism better watch out that they do not bite and devour one another.

Mike said it for me. Good thoughts! What is thought to be spiritual among apostolics is very often actually works of the flesh and therein lies our problem.

Raven

[crakjak]

Mike said it for me. Good thoughts! What is thought to be spiritual among apostolics is very often actually works of the flesh and therein lies our problem.

Raven

Whoa! Raven, Mike certainly did say it very well.

[LadyCoonskinner]

When you read the Bible, you see the devil being cast out in a number of places. Then, when a person has the experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost and it is a very real and life changing experience, a person then has to think about how to weigh what is evil. There are varying degrees to which people give attention to the devil in the Apostolic church. Usually, the more attention that is given to it, the greater likelihood of emotional instability.

I was gonna stay out of this, but this one line really "caught" my eye. Because one may be a little more in-tune with the spirit world than others, does NOT, in any form, mean that they are "emotionally unstable"!!!!!!!!! I am more sensitive to "spirits", but that does not mean I am unstable or wierd, or odd. I am just in-tune more with what's going in the spirit.

I pray daily, that God allows me to be more sensitive to Him, and in doing that, I automatically become more aware of what's going on around me, physcially and spiritually. I want to be used to reach people who need a Savior, and in doing that you made aware of what's really going on in their world sometimes. Sometimes, that includes being a little more aware of "the big bad devil" and what he's putting people through, and what they unknowingly allow him to do to them. But, in NO WAY am I suffering from "emotional instability" because I am used in this way.

You know better than that. You were used in this at one time. You were one of the most spiritually sensitive people I had ever met. You loved God and wanted to be used by Him, but just because you were more sensitive to the spirit, whether it Divine or Demonic, didn't make you "emotionally unstable". You were used and blessed by God.

Becareful with the "broad-brushing" here....:foottap

[TJJJ]

Why is there so much infidelity among Apostolics?

Why is there so much child abuse (physical, mental, sexual) among Apostolics?

Why is there so much spousal abuse among Apostolics?

Why is there so much gluttony among Apostolics?

Why is there so much disregard for civil law (traffic laws, tax laws, etc) among Apostolics?

Why is there so much dishonesty among Apostolics?

Why is there so much teen age pregnancy among Apostolics?

Why is there so much ............. among Apostolics?


Because Apostolics are human just like everyone else.

GOOD POINT SAM!!!!

Let's not ever forget our HUMAN factor!

[LadyCoonskinner]

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes...

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?

2. Why are Apostolics so afraid of intellectualism?

3. Why do Apostolics give an inordinate amount of attention to the Devil, witchcraft and all things superstitious?

4. Why are Apostolics territorial?

5. Which is the greater threat to Apostolics; the Emerging Church, or introversion?

1. I believe that hatred is too strong a word. Everyone of us come from different backgrounds and some believe stronger than others, and some are more capable of "allowing" and "condoning" things and allowing fellowship with those "gray areas" than others are. I don't believe it is hatred.

2. Some may be afraid of it, but some are not afraid of intellectualism, but they are concerned that when you begin to "question" you open yourself up to confusion. You can begin to question EVERYTHING, and that is not good. Because, in lieu of "trying to find out what this means and what that means", you begin to "water" everything down, you begin to lose faith and trust in most things. NOTHING is sacred anymore. You begin to question motives and behaviors that really have nothing to do with you, but you begin to wonder if anything in life is real, solid, honest, etc.

3. Already answered that in my post above.

4. Why are we territorial? Well, let me tell ya this way. What if you planted a garden, tilled that ground, pulled all the weeds, watered, even when it never rained, EVERYDAY you were there. Working and sweating and bleeding, sacrificing...get my point... When I work with someone and I invest my time and energy, money, prayers in the middle of the night, or getting in my car to go referee a fight in the middle of the night and walk into a house with kids screaming and crying and begging me to keep mom or dad from leaving, or walking into the ER to see someone mangled or dying from a heart attack, or spending HOURS in the hospital while a woman is in labor and trying to coach her through the pain and get a baby born, or cry with a family because a loved one died and that loved one went to the same church you did, or listen to a teenager scream at the unfairness of God and the church, and turn their back and walk away with you begging them not to and then have to sit back and watch while the walk willingly into a world of sin and perversion while their mom and dad are screaming and crying and asking you to do something and to help....

Get the idea....TERRITORIAL......YOU BETCHA!!!!

5. Since these are the only choices, I'd have to say introversion. Why? Because it is easy for ANYONE to become introverted and let it be just us four and no more and what's going on in your own world and forget about everybody else.

[Aquila]

I come to you hoping you can answer several serious questions. Doing so will require some time, contemplation and bravery.

Here goes...

1. Why is there so much hatred between Apostolics?


Because I'm RIGHT and you're WRONG. That's why! :lol

[The Lemon]

Well.......I was talking to a minister friend of mine last week concerning one specific area that is listed in this post - that being "Territorial". First, let me say that in all liklihood, not ALL apostolic church's/leaders are territorial. We need to be careful not to broad brush all apostolics, especially when none of us on here knows every apostolic out there.

That said, I have seen and am aware that there are some leaders and pastors who are very territorial, which is really a symptom of insecurity. Our church's should pull together and help one another win cities to the Lord - pulling talent, calling and ideas to create synergy - sadly, in some cases this does not happen because a pastor feels "threatened". It is truely an elementary attitude.

There is, in some cases, too much emphasis on sheep stealing, etc. I feel, as I have said before many times on this forum, that the root cause of the division is that church has become too much of a business and less a spiritual body of believers. I still don't understand why Paul could hold a trade and plant church's and mentor other ministers, and yet today there is such an emphasis on "Full Time" ministry.

I have been around awhile and heard all the arguments about the necessity of full time ministry - even still, it seems to me, at least in the circle I have been around, that folks have not idea about the principle of "Less is More". Too much burn out going on these days - I wonder who we are serving sometimes....God or our own ambitions??

Sorry for the rant.......I just feel that we should work more toward unity then exclusivity.

[Aquila]

In Paul's day they didn't do church like we do. In Paul's day they just met in homes, had prayer meetings and studied Scripture together. They also took free will offerings to meet various needs. They didn't need a full time CEO or production planner.

[Falla39]

Well.......I was talking to a minister friend of mine last week concerning one specific area that is listed in this post - that being "Territorial". First, let me say that in all liklihood, not ALL apostolic church's/leaders are territorial. We need to be careful not to broad brush all apostolics, especially when none of us on here knows every apostolic out there.

That said, I have seen and am aware that there are some leaders and pastors who are very territorial, which is really a symptom of insecurity. Our church's should pull together and help one another win cities to the Lord - pulling talent, calling and ideas to create synergy - sadly, in some cases this does not happen because a pastor feels "threatened". It is truely an elementary attitude.

There is, in some cases, too much emphasis on sheep stealing, etc. I feel, as I have said before many times on this forum, that the root cause of the division is that church has become too much of a business and less a spiritual body of believers. I still don't understand why Paul could hold a trade and plant church's and mentor other ministers, and yet today there is such an emphasis on "Full Time" ministry.

I have been around awhile and heard all the arguments about the necessity of full time ministry - even still, it seems to me, at least in the circle I have been around, that folks have not idea about the principle of "Less is More". Too much burn out going on these days - I wonder who we are serving sometimes....God or our own ambitions??

Sorry for the rant.......I just feel that we should work more toward unity then exclusivity.

Great Post!:thumbsup

[Raven]

LC
About being territorial? Remember one crucial point: The garden is God's garden no matter how much time and effort we put into it. It's when we begin to think of it as our garden and keep a record of all our contributions to it that we stray from God's Grand Plan. But ... I do get your drift. :)

Raven

[Falla39]

LC
About being territorial? Remember one crucial point: The garden is God's garden no matter how much time and effort we put into it. It's when we begin to think of it as our garden and keep a record of all our contributions to it that we stray from God's Grand Plan. But ... I do get your drift. :)

Raven

Bro. Raven, your post reminded me of something I had noticed lately.

I noticed for a few years, the bluejays that came each summer to nest
in our trees in the back yard. They would become very "territorial", in that
they would dart down and peck on the cat and squirrels that liked our back
yard with several large shady trees also.
It came to mind a few days ago, "I haven't seen any bluejays lately! Wonder
where all the bluejays have gone"! Could it be that the very things they were
pecking on, had removed them! I did notice that the cat (that belongs to a
neighbor, but likes to hang out here) is still around. Haven't noticed any
squirrels lately either. I wondered why the neighbor's cat liked it over here
so much. Evidently he found something to eat, but I haven't fed him.:nah

Falla39

[rgcraig]

Excellent post The Lemon!

[ForeverBlessed]

LC
About being territorial? Remember one crucial point: The garden is God's garden no matter how much time and effort we put into it. It's when we begin to think of it as our garden and keep a record of all our contributions to it that we stray from God's Grand Plan. But ... I do get your drift. :)

Raven

I was just getting ready to post something like this... awesome and straight up right.

and I also being raised a P.K. totally understand how LS feels.... but you just can not be territiorial when it is God's to begin with.

[ForeverBlessed]

Well.......I was talking to a minister friend of mine last week concerning one specific area that is listed in this post - that being "Territorial". First, let me say that in all liklihood, not ALL apostolic church's/leaders are territorial. We need to be careful not to broad brush all apostolics, especially when none of us on here knows every apostolic out there.

That said, I have seen and am aware that there are some leaders and pastors who are very territorial, which is really a symptom of insecurity. Our church's should pull together and help one another win cities to the Lord - pulling talent, calling and ideas to create synergy - sadly, in some cases this does not happen because a pastor feels "threatened". It is truely an elementary attitude.

There is, in some cases, too much emphasis on sheep stealing, etc. I feel, as I have said before many times on this forum, that the root cause of the division is that church has become too much of a business and less a spiritual body of believers. I still don't understand why Paul could hold a trade and plant church's and mentor other ministers, and yet today there is such an emphasis on "Full Time" ministry.

I have been around awhile and heard all the arguments about the necessity of full time ministry - even still, it seems to me, at least in the circle I have been around, that folks have not idea about the principle of "Less is More". Too much burn out going on these days - I wonder who we are serving sometimes....God or our own ambitions??
Sorry for the rant.......I just feel that we should work more toward unity then exclusivity.
Great post...

Who are we serving? own ambitions, approval of others, traditions of church and men, loyalty to heritage and family... people serve many things besides God.

[rgcraig]

I was just getting ready to post something like this... awesome and straight up right.

and I also being raised a P.K. totally understand how LS feels.... but you just can not be territiorial when it is God's to begin with.

Exactly - - it's called compassion and we should be that way with anyone that needs it - not just "our" people.

[tbpew]

LC
About being territorial? Remember one crucial point: The garden is God's garden no matter how much time and effort we put into it. It's when we begin to think of it as our garden and keep a record of all our contributions to it that we stray from God's Grand Plan. But ... I do get your drift. :)

Raven

Thanks for the contribution.

This point does require a clear determination of "Who is the author and finisher"...aka, the "owner" of the thing.

LS (may actually be Bro CS right?), directs our thinking to a pretty understandable viewpoint where "Territorial" is both reasonable and appropriate concerning something that any one has labored to build.

This is why I think peace could be served if we just start calling our familiar dynamic for assembling --God-themed man clubs.

If the men that set out to establish (supply the founding efforts) these meeting places did not make their club a defacto witness of "God's own church", everything we see (and experience) would be quite reasonable. The way in which we have experienced the traditional "rule by founder/sr. pastor would be consistent with any other club that has a constituency with a founder or a CEO.

It is completely unreasonable to think that the solo founding person who supplied the entrepenuereral energy, that stood alone to establish a God-themed meeting place, should forfiet his buck-stops-here voice and let some emergent mob-rule have governance:nah.

IMO, the entire problem is calling these locations where member-ministers establish a meeting place where God themes are shared and taught --God's church.

[ILG]

I was gonna stay out of this, but this one line really "caught" my eye. Because one may be a little more in-tune with the spirit world than others, does NOT, in any form, mean that they are "emotionally unstable"!!!!!!!!! I am more sensitive to "spirits", but that does not mean I am unstable or wierd, or odd. I am just in-tune more with what's going in the spirit.

I pray daily, that God allows me to be more sensitive to Him, and in doing that, I automatically become more aware of what's going on around me, physcially and spiritually. I want to be used to reach people who need a Savior, and in doing that you made aware of what's really going on in their world sometimes. Sometimes, that includes being a little more aware of "the big bad devil" and what he's putting people through, and what they unknowingly allow him to do to them. But, in NO WAY am I suffering from "emotional instability" because I am used in this way.

You know better than that. You were used in this at one time. You were one of the most spiritually sensitive people I had ever met. You loved God and wanted to be used by Him, but just because you were more sensitive to the spirit, whether it Divine or Demonic, didn't make you "emotionally unstable". You were used and blessed by God.

Becareful with the "broad-brushing" here....:foottap

Never said that LCS. You are taking my words, twisting them and running with them. I have seen way too many people give way too much attention to the devil. Bottom line: If you give too much attention to the devil, you are going to be emotionally unstable. Give your attention to God and you can't go wrong.

P.S. Are you implying I am no longer used by God and now do not follow or hear the Spirit?

[Rhoni]

1John 4:7-21 NIV:

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.

18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us.

20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

I honestly saw more animosity between apostolics, not all though, than any group I have witnessed before. And I think it is the legalistic strain through many people involved in it. Legalism, as Paul explained, leads to works of the flesh. And hatred is a big work of the flesh. It just goes with legalistic territory. Again, not all apostolics are legalists. But you will find animosity amongst those that are everytime.

Concentrating upon the outward so much is concentration on flesh. And fleshly-mindedness simply goes hand in hand with animosity and works of the flesh. Gal 5 implies that when Paul stated those who get steeped in legalism better watch out that they do not bite and devour one another.

Well.......I was talking to a minister friend of mine last week concerning one specific area that is listed in this post - that being "Territorial". First, let me say that in all liklihood, not ALL apostolic church's/leaders are territorial. We need to be careful not to broad brush all apostolics, especially when none of us on here knows every apostolic out there.

That said, I have seen and am aware that there are some leaders and pastors who are very territorial, which is really a symptom of insecurity. Our church's should pull together and help one another win cities to the Lord - pulling talent, calling and ideas to create synergy - sadly, in some cases this does not happen because a pastor feels "threatened". It is truely an elementary attitude.

There is, in some cases, too much emphasis on sheep stealing, etc. I feel, as I have said before many times on this forum, that the root cause of the division is that church has become too much of a business and less a spiritual body of believers. I still don't understand why Paul could hold a trade and plant church's and mentor other ministers, and yet today there is such an emphasis on "Full Time" ministry.

I have been around awhile and heard all the arguments about the necessity of full time ministry - even still, it seems to me, at least in the circle I have been around, that folks have not idea about the principle of "Less is More". Too much burn out going on these days - I wonder who we are serving sometimes....God or our own ambitions??

Sorry for the rant.......I just feel that we should work more toward unity then exclusivity.

Sis Falla has spoken about how things SHOULD be, but Bro Blume & Lemon have stated things as they are in REALITY.

The churches around here are often times having trouble, saints traveling church to church, and bad feelings all over the place. If a Pastor would look at the church saints as belonging to God's church then they would not take it personally when people choose to leave and would pray for them, be kind to them, and tell them they have an open door to return if things don't work for them elsewhere.

When Pastors are self-serving - building their own kingdom, it will surely fall! I have seen it many times that a pastor is too proud to make a phone call of reconcilliation or admit he may have made a hasty decision, or ask to agree to disagree but worship together in peace.

I do believe the scripture to bear out that Pastor's have a responsibility to give account and they have a lot of explaining to do about how they treat God's people.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Praxeas]

When our youth went to a mall in an adjacent city to pass out fliers and witness, the pastor of that city chewed our youth leader out.

However the same pastor has no problem with selling cherries in our city, his members doing the same thing in our city and even trying to convince former members of his church now in other Apostoolic churches to leave and come back to his church (despite the fact he kicked them out)

[Apocrypha]

Tribalism is the simple sociological answer... from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism

The other concept to which the word tribalism frequently refers is the possession of a strong cultural or ethnic identity that separates oneself as a member of one group from the members of another. This phenomenon is related to the concept of tribal society in that it is a precondition for members of a tribe to possess a strong feeling of identity for a true tribal society to form. The distinction between these two definitions for tribalism is an important one because, while tribal society no longer strictly exists in the western world, tribalism, by this second definition, is arguably undiminished. People have postulated that the human brain is hard-wired towards tribalism due to its evolutionary advantages. See Tribalism and evolution below.
Many tribes refer to themselves with their language's word for "people," while referring to other, neighboring tribes with various epithets. For example, the term "Inuit" translates as "people," but they were known to the Ojibwe by a name translating roughly as "eaters of raw meat."[citation needed] This fact is often cited as evidence that tribal peoples saw only the members of their own tribe as "people," and denigrated all others as something less. In fact, this is a tenuous conclusion to draw from the evidence. Many languages refined their identification as "the true people," or "the real people," dehumanizing the other people or simply considering them inferior. In this, it is merely evidence of ethnocentrism, a universal cultural characteristic found in all societies.

The simple fact is to maintain "identity" you need to draw sharper lines when a group is closer to you yet has some dis-similar traits that make it apparent they aren't part of your "tribe" or social group... yet they are sooooooooo close. That's why most preachers will wail on other apostolics, baptists, and methodists with the occasional swipe at Roman Catholics... yet i have yet to hear anything about Eastern Orthodox traditions or lesser known groups like coptic christians that have a very unique flavor of Christianity.

Essentially if you define your "tribe" by a set of "taboos" and someone says they are part of your tribe even though they don't observe the exact same rules or "taboos" it causes the tribe to lose cohesion and undermines the tribal leaders since they depend on a set of rewards and punishment (promotion or sitting a saint down for a time for a offense) that conform to the set of taboos and rules. Its very very simple if you break it down from a sociological perspective.

[easter]

The apostolic church family is mild compared to the Baptist.You should sit in a First Baptist church for awhile and it's really not the men.The women think you purposely overlook speaking or you don't say you like the $300.00 dollar dress they have on and you'd think they came straight off of W.W.F :ursofunny

[RevDWW]

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Nuff said!

[RandyWayne]

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Nuff said!

But.... but.... that is NOT enough! I need to feel like I am earning something!!! I need to be more saved than the person sitting in front of me in church!

And doesn't "obey them...." trump the above two scriptures?

[Apocrypha]

But.... but.... that is NOT enough! I need to feel like I am earning something!!! I need to be more saved than the person sitting in front of me in church!

And doesn't "obey them...." trump the above two scriptures?

Just buy some papal indulgences, then your really be saved in case you have a bad day and God's grace isnt enuff

http://holysee.biz/Papal_Indulgince/penence.htm

[Falla39]

Matt.24:11-13,

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

[RandyWayne]

But.... but.... that is NOT enough! I need to feel like I am earning something!!! I need to be more saved than the person sitting in front of me in church!

And doesn't "obey them...." trump the above two scriptures?

And besides, actually loving my jerk of a neighbor is truly hard! Getting rid of the ol TV and making my wife wear a jean skirt and not cut her hair is much easier in comparison.