UPC Manual Question

[U376977]

I know a 22 year old preacher in the UPC. He holds their 1st tier liscense (I forget what it is called). He was taking a few appointments regardless if they were UPC churches and he ministers on Wednesdays for his grandfather, who has an independent church.
His UPC pastor, who is also the district super. just had a meeting with him and told him that if he ministers anywhere that the host pastor must contact him (the UPC pastor). The reason he gave was that "you are young and I don't want you to get messed up with a false teaching." And he said it was a manual requirement.

Why does the UPC have this as a requirement? It seems to me that whatever the motivation might be, that the effect would be to completly shut down any ministry outside of the UPC since almost no pastor is going to call a UPC pastor and be questioned about his beliefs when all he wants is to book a guest minister. And what if the host church was trinity, word of faith, etc., cannot an UPC minister to those people if invited?

[commonsense]

Some districts are very strict on this policy. When we had left the UPC a good pastor friend invited my husband to speak for him. It was the not the state we lived in. Our pastor friend was reprimanded after the fact for allowing this.
Your question is another angle on the "control" factor within the UPC. They can put whatever spin on it they wish to......it's all about control.

[commonsense]

Some districts are very strict on this policy. When we had left the UPC a good pastor friend invited my husband to speak for him. It was the not the state we lived in. Our pastor friend was reprimanded after the fact for allowing this.
Your question is another angle on the "control" factor within the UPC. They can put whatever spin on it they wish to......it's all about control.

[U376977]

Some districts are very strict on this policy. When we had left the UPC a good pastor friend invited my husband to speak for him. It was the not the state we lived in. Our pastor friend was reprimanded after the fact for allowing this.
Your question is another angle on the "control" factor within the UPC. They can put whatever spin on it they wish to......it's all about control.

Just for me to understand....
In regard to my question about host pastors contacting the ministers pastor is all about UPC contol of their ministers?

And then your story means that:

The UPC does not allow a non UPC minister to preach in one of their churches unless it is pre cleared by district?

[Sam]

Just for me to understand....
In regard to my question about host pastors contacting the ministers pastor is all about UPC contol of their ministers?

And then your story means that:

The UPC does not allow a non UPC minister to preach in one of their churches unless it is pre cleared by district?

Quite a few years ago (in the nineteen sixties) I was going to a UPC Church and doing some preaching in non-UPC churches. My pastor did not comment on it or reprimand me. One of the men from our church (Bro. Estep) started a new church in the small city he lived in. It was Ludlow, KY and across the river from the Cincinnati area where we live and where the UPC church was that we attended. The pastor of the new work was UPC and I was the speaker for the opening service. The place was packed out (mostly people from the UPC church where we went) and it was a good service.

A couple of months later this pastor was the host pastor for a UPC youth rally. It was held in a local school because his church was too small. The speaker was an ALJC preacher from Dayton, OH. The next day the UPC pastor (Bro. Estep) was notified that two of the Kentucky ministers from that area had "filed charges" (that was the term he used if I remember correctly) against him because he had a non-UPC minister preach. Bro. Estep left the UPC and joined the ALJC.

[Apocrypha]

Just for me to understand....
In regard to my question about host pastors contacting the ministers pastor is all about UPC contol of their ministers?

And then your story means that:

The UPC does not allow a non UPC minister to preach in one of their churches unless it is pre cleared by district?

Usually in the UPC the concensus is that if you go to another town to preach at a non-UPC church whether its apostolic or not you are supposed to call that area's sectional presbyter to let him know.

On one hand I can see it from a territorial viewpoint because it would be a nightmare for a independent apostolic church that left the UPC or has a less than stellar relationship with the UPC to have a major big name evangelist come there and draw the "sheep" from other churches to view that popular evangelist for that evening.

On the other hand it shows a plantation mentality from the pastoral core that such a official or unoffical rule needs to be there in the first place depending on the district.

[Sam]

The UPC is not the only organization to do things like this. Back in the 1970's I was a licensed minister with the ALJC and was sectional youth leader. I went to a district conference and attended the business meeting. One matter of business was one of the ALJC pastors in the state had had a Church of God minister preach for him. I guess it had happened more than once and maybe he had been told not to do that. The pastor was not present at the meeting. It was proposed and approved by vote to pull his license/ordination. I was a young man (almost 40) and did not say anything because of respect/fear of the elders but I did not like that. I did not like the idea of an organization telling a pastor who he could or could not let preach in his church.

[Sam]

Usually in the UPC the concensus is that if you go to another town to preach at a non-UPC church whether its apostolic or not you are supposed to call that area's sectional presbyter to let him know.

On one hand I can see it from a territorial viewpoint because it would be a nightmare for a independent apostolic church that left the UPC or has a less than stellar relationship with the UPC to have a major big name evangelist come there and draw the "sheep" from other churches to view that popular evangelist for that evening.

On the other hand it shows a plantation mentality from the pastoral core that such a official or unoffical rule needs to be there in the first place depending on the district.


TFT ignores that rule and goes and preaches wherever he wants to.
But, who is gonna call him on it?

[Apocrypha]

TFT ignores that rule and goes and preaches wherever he wants to.
But, who is gonna call him on it?

A extremely foolish district superintendent who didn't want to get re-elected.

[U376977]

A extremely foolish district superintendent who didn't want to get re-elected.

TFT ignores that rule and goes and preaches wherever he wants to.
But, who is gonna call him on it?

TFT?

[Sam]

TFT?

I thought we weren't supposed to use names here.

[U376977]

I thought we weren't supposed to use names here.

Ok, but since I have never been a denom man I don't know who you mean. To aviod names but still communicate I have heard people say TV Jakes, Joyce Smiles, Kenneth Dopeland, Jack Van Pimp and the like.

[oletime]

I thought we weren't supposed to use names here.

i think thats been violated so many times i cant count , kind of like the manual .lol go ahead and tell him big guy ! it is true !

[Apocrypha]

Ok, but since I have never been a denom man I don't know who you mean. To aviod names but still communicate I have heard people say TV Jakes, Joyce Smiles, Kenneth Dopeland, Jack Van Pimp and the like.

You forgot Jan Crouch... love her hair.

[jaxfam6]

You forgot Jan Crouch... love her hair.

Every time I ever see that women I think of Miss Piggy, I don't know why but I do. Lord forgive me.

[jaxfam6]

is anyone going to tell him who TFT is?

[Apocrypha]

is anyone going to tell him who TFT is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOtoY1651i0

TF Tenny

[jaxfam6]

TF Tenny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfKZPVrFyag

ONE of the BEST there is in any organization

[Apocrypha]

i switched videos while you were quoting me, but thats a good one too :)

[U376977]

is anyone going to tell him who TFT is?

Thanks I have actually heard him on you tube but could not put it together today.
I just have a knot in my gut about this whole thing. I really did not know these rules were actually codified. To think a man, by organ. statute, will sit in the place of God...where a local pastor does not have the ability to follow the leading of the HG to preach any ministry he chooses. Or where a minister cannot allow God to open doors for him anywhere without it first being cleared by his UPC (and per Sam other denoms) pastor. They should change their titles from Pastor to Chief Sheperd and from DIST. Super to LORD.

[Apocrypha]

Thanks I have actually heard him on you tube but could not put it together today.
I just have a knot in my gut about this whole thing. I really did not know these rules were actually codified. To think a man, by organ. statute, will sit in the place of God...where a local pastor does not have the ability to follow the leading of the HG to preach any ministry he chooses. Or where a minister cannot allow God to open doors for him anywhere without it first being cleared by his UPC (and per Sam other denoms) pastor. They should change their titles from Pastor to Chief Sheperd and from DIST. Super to LORD.

Its in some district bylaws.

[U376977]

You forgot Jan Crouch... love her hair.

Yes, but I would not have used her anyway. The name varient I heard was played on her last name and it is not nice at all....! LOL

[Apocrypha]

Yes, but I would not have used her anyway. The name varient I heard was played on her last name and it is not nice at all....! LOL

Honestly shes not as bad as some since not many folks take her seriously. Shes like the book in the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy series "Mostly Harmless"

[Jermyn Davidson]

Are we talking about "control" or simple protocol?

Furthermore, if the young preacher is under sitting under the authority and mentorship of another Pastor, why shouldn't there be some form of accountability?


Maybe to have to ask a District Superintendent for "permission" to do something would be irritating, but if God is in control and if you are in the will of God, then God will let it happen. The "it" is whatever you desire to do for feel led to do for the Glory of God as it is He that placed you where you are in the first place.

I guess you'd have to trust God that you are where you because God wants you there-- when He called you, He knew what you would have to abide by.



But if this situation was between a minister and his immediate Pastor, then that Pastor would be COMPLETELY in line with this order.


Accountability, having to answer to someone is NOT a bad thing. In fact it is a NECESSITY within the bounds of Christianity.

[Praxeas]

Some districts are very strict on this policy. When we had left the UPC a good pastor friend invited my husband to speak for him. It was the not the state we lived in. Our pastor friend was reprimanded after the fact for allowing this.
Your question is another angle on the "control" factor within the UPC. They can put whatever spin on it they wish to......it's all about control.

Some districts are very strict on this policy. When we had left the UPC a good pastor friend invited my husband to speak for him. It was the not the state we lived in. Our pastor friend was reprimanded after the fact for allowing this.
Your question is another angle on the "control" factor within the UPC. They can put whatever spin on it they wish to......it's all about control.
We read it the first time....sheeeeesh some ego















:nahnah

[U376977]

Are we talking about "control" or simple protocol?

Furthermore, if the young preacher is under sitting under the authority and mentorship of another Pastor, why shouldn't there be some form of accountability?


Maybe to have to ask a District Superintendent for "permission" to do something would be irritating, but if God is in control and if you are in the will of God, then God will let it happen. The "it" is whatever you desire to do for feel led to do for the Glory of God as it is He that placed you where you are in the first place.

I guess you'd have to trust God that you are where you because God wants you there-- when He called you, He knew what you would have to abide by.



But if this situation was between a minister and his immediate Pastor, then that Pastor would be COMPLETELY in line with this order.


Accountability, having to answer to someone is NOT a bad thing. In fact it is a NECESSITY within the bounds of Christianity.


Maybe you missed the first post. If the 22 year old receives ANY invintation he must have the inviting pastor call his pastor, who also happens to be the DS. He was told that he it was because he did not want the 22 year old preacher to get into any false teachings, because as his pastor and DS he did not know these "men from Adam." And that it was a requirement in the ministers manuel.
I asked the q is it in the manuel and why? Someone posted that it was all about control.

I suggested that whatever reason was given, the TRUE AFFECT would be to completly shut downany outside ministry since almost no pastor will call the DS to be grilled about what he believes when all he wants to do is book a guest minister.

I agree that the minister should INFORM his pastor he is going to go preach outside especially if he holds a position in the local church....but to require the inviting pastor to call the DS and then the DS will decide if his minister is allowed to go preach, is control. And puts the pastor/DS in the place of divine authority they should not have.

Rev. 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, (From *nikao*, "to conquer," and *laos*,"the people," or "laity") which thing I hate.

[Jermyn Davidson]

What I missed was the connotation of the inviting preacher to contact the young minister's Pastor/DS.


Is this Pastor/DS giving this guidance in the role of Pastor or DS?

I still don't think this is something to choke on.

Could it be that this minister's mentor really is looking out for his mentee's best interest?

And if God, who called this mentee, who is using this mentee, if He wants this minister to go preach somewhere, couldn't God work that out within the framework in which He called this minister in the first place?

[U376977]

What I missed was the connotation of the inviting preacher to contact the young minister's Pastor/DS.


Is this Pastor/DS giving this guidance in the role of Pastor or DS?

I still don't think this is something to choke on.

Could it be that this minister's mentor really is looking out for his mentee's best interest?

And if God, who called this mentee, who is using this mentee, if He wants this minister to go preach somewhere, couldn't God work that out within the framework in which He called this minister in the first place?

1. Is this Pastor/DS giving this guidance in the role of Pastor or DS? He is not giving "guidance" about the ministers appointments, he laid down the law. The minister MUST comply or face the consequences. "Role" he is both pastor and DS.

I still don't think this is something to choke on. Ok, But the best possible way I can look at this is that it is limiting the ministry of this young preacher. He just preached in an independent church that was one of my contacts, over 1500 members. That pastor is actually a OP. He was invited back to do an annual youth meeting. Well, after his pastor/DS informed him of the "rules" don't hold your breath waiting on the youth meeting to happen.

2. Could it be that this minister's mentor really is looking out for his mentee's best interest? Yes, I believe he is really does have his ministers best interest at heart. I have met the pastor/DS and I believe he is a Godly and good man. I also think that what he considers the ministers best interest will be to only allow UPC fellowships. Time will tell.

3. And if God, who called this mentee, who is using this mentee, if He wants this minister to go preach somewhere, couldn't God work that out within the framework in which He called this minister in the first place? Yes. And God can divide the red sea, and raise the dead. IMO under this "framework" it will take an equivalent miracle for the minister to ever preach in a church outside the UPC. And that is the whole point...is it really a "framework" that God called this minister to work under.
I don't think so, and I say that with sadness.

[Sam]

is anyone going to tell him who TFT is?

TFT is Tom Fred Tenney
He has held various offices in the UPC corporate political structure over the years.

He is respected by some in the UPC
and condemned by others.

[jaxfam6]

i switched videos while you were quoting me, but thats a good one too :)

I was meaning the man more than the video =)

[jaxfam6]

okay I know I have said this before some where in these many threads but I will say it again.

I am THANKFUL that the churches I have attended have not been party to such nonsense.

My father and brother both were my pastor at one point or another and both were part of the AMF but neither one would let an organization dictate to them who would preach for them. The were many times men from the UPC, ALJC, PAW, and other groups preached for us.
Then I attended an ALJC church and we had preachers from all different groups in. Now I am in an Apostolic Assembly church and the same thing. GOD is good. I am thankful that the men we have sat under have all been balanced. (for the most part) =)

[U376977]

okay I know I have said this before some where in these many threads but I will say it again.

I am THANKFUL that the churches I have attended have not been party to such nonsense.

My father and brother both were my pastor at one point or another and both were part of the AMF but neither one would let an organization dictate to them who would preach for them. The were many times men from the UPC, ALJC, PAW, and other groups preached for us.
Then I attended an ALJC church and we had preachers from all different groups in. Now I am in an Apostolic Assembly church and the same thing. GOD is good. I am thankful that the men we have sat under have all been balanced. (for the most part) =)

Judging from the 411 views at the time of this post and only 28 replies tells me that either the UPCers (and other denom types) cannot make excuses or explain the "nonsense." Others have had such bad experiences with the denom. and divisional type preachers that they don't want to take the time to post about it.

I too am so thankful I was never caught up in the nonsense. When I saw the light of oneness truth I was in ORU. I was hired right out of school and had to work almost 7 days a week so I did not get into a church, just spent that time reading my bible and in private prayer. The company finally landed me in Nashville TN and I was getting 2 days off a week and I started to go to Joby Brady's Church (he is in Raleigh NC now and has a international influence). My best friend I met in his church took me to Charlotte to meet his dad. I moved to Charlotte and helped him in tent ministry and to pastor a church for 7 years. Then I moved to Tulsa OK and started to go to Duane Blue's who was associated with David Terrell, but is a powerful minister and preacher in his own right. After a few years we moved back to Charlotte and started going to a church of Jesus Christ, (there are several denoms. but my church is independent) we have gone there for 7 years. All these churches are independent and allow outside fellowship. So I have really been blessed to not experience the pain caused by the hatred and division.

[jaxfam6]

I do not associate myself with an organization. I do not attend a church because of an organization. If I found myself at a place where this went on I would find myself some place else to go I think. That is just my opinion of it. Others may feel differently.

[U376977]

I do not associate myself with an organization. I do not attend a church because of an organization. If I found myself at a place where this went on I would find myself some place else to go I think. That is just my opinion of it. Others may feel differently.

Amen! I would go elsewhere. The reason that I posted this was not to belittle that church. But it sounded so unbelievable that I wanted to verify the "rules" and I knew the AFF people could tell me. And I was so upset because I really do care about the young minister and do not want him to settle for a ministry that is not the will of God for him but is only 2nd best. I pray that one day he will free himself of religion.

[TJJJ]

Having been in the Org and also out of it, let me say this for the thread.

All orgs must have some rules to follow, you might call them control, they might call them operating guidelines.

If that is that particular orgs rules, and you wish to associate with the men of that Org, then you follow their established rules.

Some people needs rules to operate. I have met people that absolutely need the structure in order to feel like they are a part of something. Their choice.

Others, like myself and those on this thread, are more so independent thinkers. Neither are wrong if the people involved with either (upci or independents) like the rules and reg! There are benefits to both sides but having been a part of the UPCI I personally had never experienced that level of control, although I had heard of it in various districts!

I hesitate to take your side on this case as time has always proved out that their is two sides to the story.

The young man is young! Youth is inexperienced, but in their own opinion is always right! You are only getting one side of the story it appears. This might not be the first time that the young man has caused problems.

The DC might be a Frankenstien, but according to the posts he is also the man's pastor.

Methinks that their is more to this than just what the young man is telling you!

TJJJ

[U376977]

Having been in the Org and also out of it, let me say this for the thread.

All orgs must have some rules to follow, you might call them control, they might call them operating guidelines.

If that is that particular orgs rules, and you wish to associate with the men of that Org, then you follow their established rules.

Some people needs rules to operate. I have met people that absolutely need the structure in order to feel like they are a part of something. Their choice.

Others, like myself and those on this thread, are more so independent thinkers. Neither are wrong if the people involved with either (upci or independents) like the rules and reg! There are benefits to both sides but having been a part of the UPCI I personally had never experienced that level of control, although I had heard of it in various districts!

I hesitate to take your side on this case as time has always proved out that their is two sides to the story.

The young man is young! Youth is inexperienced, but in their own opinion is always right! You are only getting one side of the story it appears. This might not be the first time that the young man has caused problems.

The DC might be a Frankenstien, but according to the posts he is also the man's pastor.

Methinks that their is more to this than just what the young man is telling you!

TJJJ

I had not considered that, really. Perhaps my love for the young man blinded to that possiblity. But he held a revival for me, and I attended two other revivals he preached, and I loaned him my tent to hold a 10 day tent revival, I was there every night, all the people were blessed and I heard nothing negative about the boy. But as I wrote I met his pastor/DS and I think he is a good man. I have never meant to imply that he is a "Frankenstien" and the boy loves and respects him enough to submit to what I called "nonsense." So he may have his reasons? I just cannot imagine what they could be or what the boy could have done to demand this type of control. But thank-you for your thoughts.

[Sam]

from the 2008 Articles of Faith and Constitution of the ALJC (Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ)


SECTION 4. LICENSE

5. All ministers holding License or Credentials with the Assemblies
of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are not engaged in full time ministry
(Pastor or Evangelist), shall attach themselves to a local Apostolic
assembly, working under the jurisdiction of and in fellowship with the
Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ and be subordinate to that pastor.
Any exceptions to the above rule must be approved by the District
Board in which the minister is located.
...
8. No minister affiliated with us shall be permitted to hold papers
with any other chartered organization or association. Exception shall
be accepted in cases of property protection.
page 28


SECTION 4. RULES AND OBLIGATIONS
1. Our ministers may conduct meetings in any city and for any
church, regardless of its organizational ties, in the Oneness movement,
as long as the conduct of both the church and its pastor is in
harmony with godly living and Christian ethics.
page 29