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*AQuietPlace*
06-29-2009, 11:33 AM
(I Cor. 14:23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

.................................................. ..................


A lot that goes on in traditional Pentecostal services looks CRAZY. I recently stood in the doorway at a conference that was held in a hotel ballroom. As I looked in, there were people whirling in circles, flopping on the floor, shaking people around, running around and around chairs, etc. I thought then that if a hotel guest walked by and looked in, they would think the people were absolutely mad.

Should this concern us? Does it not matter? Is it a move of God that should not embarrass us? (I'll confess, I felt embarrassed. :blush)

How much should we worry about what people think?

Sister Alvear
06-29-2009, 11:36 AM
I think people ought to study the order Paul gave us in his writings...

*AQuietPlace*
06-29-2009, 11:36 AM
I think people ought to study the order Paul gave us in his writings...
What do you mean?

Sister Alvear
06-29-2009, 11:52 AM
There is a time for all things...Paul wrote about people talking in tongues...the sinner understands nothing unless someone has the gift to tell them what is being said...gifts must work together.
I have heard people say they could not control the Holy Ghost it was so strong...I often say if you have no self control you are like a car without brakes...pretty dangerous...

Sister Alvear
06-29-2009, 11:54 AM
"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. . . . Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. . . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order." (1Corinthians 14:26, 29-32, 37-40, KJV)

Scott Hutchinson
06-29-2009, 12:32 PM
This is talking everyone trying to give a message in tongues all at once.
1 Cor.14 is not a prohibition of spiritual gifts,Paul as an Apostle is just teaching the church about the proper usage of spiritual gifts.
The gifts of the spirit will used properly edify the church,when used out of order bring chaos,and cause confusion something God is not the author of.

POWERUP
06-29-2009, 12:55 PM
:gotcha:foottapI love that analogy Sis. Alvear!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a firm believer in Spiritual Gifts. But having a Jerhico March every service, is not going to save the lost.

But, of course if there is no preaching. Then we had CHURCH!!!!!!! Nobody got saved, nobody got delivered, nobodys marriage put back together. We rolled, spit, and jumped over pews.

Man we had some church!!!!!!!!

Withdrawn
06-29-2009, 12:59 PM
How concerned are we? Or how concerned SHOULD WE BE? There are really two dynamics here.

How concerned are we? Probably not very concerned. In fact, I've been in MANY MANY MANY services (usually camps and conferences) over the last 25 years where the success meter of the services were based in large part on how crazy things would get. And I'll have to admit that I bought into it for a really long time. It seemed like the crazier the antics of the worshippers (running, jumping, screaming, twirling, rolling, etc.) the more people walked away rejoicing in what a great "move of God" we had.

How concerned should we be? I remember, like the author of this thread, attending a National Youth Convention for ALJC years ago at the Opryland Hotel. We were in one ballroom having our service and across the hall was some professional seminars taking place. The choir was singing a song that went on for (this is NO JOKE) 45 minutes while the place turned into a free-for-all circus. The back doors were propped open for some unknown reason and in the concourse there was a large group of spectators forming. You should have seen the horrified and incredulous looks on the faces of these people. There was no glory being given to God, no edification to the church body, no instruction given to the unbelievers/unlearned. That was a turning point in my life.

POWERUP
06-29-2009, 01:07 PM
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And more emen!!!!!!!!

Aquila
06-29-2009, 01:18 PM
(I Cor. 14:23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

.................................................. ..................


A lot that goes on in traditional Pentecostal services looks CRAZY. I recently stood in the doorway at a conference that was held in a hotel ballroom. As I looked in, there were people whirling in circles, flopping on the floor, shaking people around, running around and around chairs, etc. I thought then that if a hotel guest walked by and looked in, they would think the people were absolutely mad.

Should this concern us? Does it not matter? Is it a move of God that should not embarrass us? (I'll confess, I felt embarrassed. :blush)

How much should we worry about what people think?

Here are my thoughts,

The Scriptures describe speaking in tongues. The whirling, flopping, shaking people, etc. are not mentioned in Scriptures. Sometimes one may fall prostrate before the Lord or praise with clapping, cry, and shout while experiencing his glory, but that’s about all that’s described in Scripture. I once watched video where people were making animal noises, one man crowed like a rooster and the preacher actually said, “My friends… that was a wakeup call from God.” I think we need to tread lightly here because in all honesty… there’s little Bible for some of the things we see. I believe Paul would rebuke us and tell us to get the church in order. Someone has to have the guts to say it… I guess I’ll have to. lol

Anyway… the Scripture you point out is very important. Paul is teaching something in context and we rarely examine it closely. Here’s the passage in context…

1 Corinthians 14:20-25 (King James Version)
20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Paul is telling them to grow up. Yes, God promised to speak to his people through other tongues and stammering lips. And yes, tongues are a big deal to those who don’t believe… but prophesying (anointed messages) serve to edify and build up those who believe. Therefore, if the entire church assembly is raving in tongues, and there come someone who is unlearned or who are unbelievers they are going to think you’re all crazy. But if all prophesy (deliver anointed messages) and there comes in one who believes not, or who is unlearned, he will be convicted and moved because of all that’s said. The secrets of his heart are made manifest and so falling down on his face he will worship God and report that God truly is in that congregation.

Now… we don’t really see this that often today like it was in the first century church. For example, note what Paul writes,


I Corinthians 14:24
24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

In our modern churches we typically let one man deliver the anointed message (we call it a sermon traditionally). However, in Paul’s day church gatherings were informal and were in homes. And in this home meetings everyone would testify and share what God laid upon their heart be it a message, a Scripture, a song, etc. There wasn’t just one man sermonizing. It was more like a roundtable Bible discussion and testimony service with two or three elders serving to keep order. Now… Paul was telling them if a guest comes into their home and all are ranting in tongues that guest will think their crazy. However, if everyone of them testifies and delivers a message from God, this unbeliever will see that God is truly working in their lives as a whole. And as they discuss issues and questions that are hidden deep in that visitor’s heart, their issues and questions will be made manifest and that unbeliever will be convicted to believe.

For example, in a small home church gathering I’ve visited on occasion everyone shares what God has done for them, a message he’s laid on their hearts, a song that moved them that they want to share, etc. You’d be amazed at how many times the very same passage is laid on several people’s hearts that same week. Coincidence? No. Or how all the songs are on the same line of reasoning and it seems like God himself as set the tone for the entire meeting. I sat amazed and how each person seemed directly plugged into God and by the end of the meeting all knew what God was telling the church through the body ministering to one another. It’s not uncommon for a visitor or a new convert to start weeping because the very thing discussed by all addressed a burden they were carrying, a sin they were struggling with, or a question they had about God or God’s Word. This convicted them that God truly was present and speaking to them.

We see this to some extent in a traditional service… but sometimes it’s just a sermon with your typical generalities and sermonizing homiletics. Yep, I used to preach. So I know how to weave the message and use the inflection to appear “anointed”. I also know how to generalize it to a point wherein all might find a little “something” talking to them. However, in the smaller meetings issues, very difficult issues, are often addressed openly and discussed by the group with the Bible in everyone’s lap. When something is said that strikes at the heart of someone there… it’s like lightening and suddenly the damns break and the tears roll… they can’t hide it. They are hungry and finally being fed. They are wounded and finally being anointed with the healing balm of Gilead.

Anyway… to answer your question… YES. We do well to take Paul’s words very seriously and bring ourselves into order. But this isn’t meant to beat up on Pentecost. The Corinthian church had the same issues. But just as they were admonished to pull it together and get into order, if we allow Paul’s words to guide us we can become the grounded and sound body of Christ God is calling us to be.

God bless.

Sister Alvear
06-29-2009, 01:20 PM
I love when the SPIRIT is moving however some churches I have been in where an almost exact copy of devil worship! (better not to get me started!)

Sister Alvear
06-29-2009, 01:23 PM
and what I think may sound like a paradox to some however I DO believe God can move however He wants to however HE said through an inspired writed that all things must be in order...

Timmy
06-29-2009, 01:23 PM
I love when the SPIRIT is moving however some churches I have been in where an almost exact copy of devil worship! (better not to get me started!)

Get started, get started! :lol

Sister Alvear
06-29-2009, 01:26 PM
New International Version (©1984)
But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

International Standard Version (©2008)
But everything must be done in a proper and orderly way.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Everything must be done in a proper and orderly way.

King James Bible
Let all things be done decently and in order.

American King James Version
Let all things be done decently and in order.

American Standard Version
But let all things be done decently and in order.

Bible in Basic English
Let all things be done in the right and ordered way.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But let all things be done decently, and according to order.

Darby Bible Translation
But let all things be done comelily and with order.

English Revised Version
But let all things be done decently and in order.

Webster's Bible Translation
Let all things be done decently, and in order.

Weymouth New Testament
only let everything be done in a becoming and orderly manner.

World English Bible
Let all things be done decently and in order.

Young's Literal Translation
let all things be done decently and in order.

jaxfam6
06-29-2009, 01:30 PM
and the floor has been given to the distinguished missionary lady from Brazil.

YOU GO SIS A

Sister Alvear
06-29-2009, 01:33 PM
Get started, get started! :lol


Oh Timmy...ask Paul....:thumbsup

*AQuietPlace*
06-29-2009, 02:36 PM
Thanks for all of the thoughts. Before I go back and read them all more carefully, I wanted to clarify one thing.

I know this verse is specifically talking about tongues, but I was thinking about the phrase 'they'll think you're mad'. Pentecostals do a lot of things that look downright crazy. Should we be concerned about people thinking we're mad?

*AQuietPlace*
06-29-2009, 02:39 PM
How concerned should we be? I remember, like the author of this thread, attending a National Youth Convention for ALJC years ago at the Opryland Hotel. We were in one ballroom having our service and across the hall was some professional seminars taking place. The choir was singing a song that went on for (this is NO JOKE) 45 minutes while the place turned into a free-for-all circus. The back doors were propped open for some unknown reason and in the concourse there was a large group of spectators forming. You should have seen the horrified and incredulous looks on the faces of these people. There was no glory being given to God, no edification to the church body, no instruction given to the unbelievers/unlearned. That was a turning point in my life.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. If I hadn't been raised Pentecostal, you wouldn't be able to DRAG me inside one of those type services. I'd be terrified.

Sam
06-29-2009, 02:44 PM
:gotcha:foottapI love that analogy Sis. Alvear!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a firm believer in Spiritual Gifts. But having a Jerhico March every service, is not going to save the lost.

But, of course if there is no preaching. Then we had CHURCH!!!!!!! Nobody got saved, nobody got delivered, nobodys marriage put back together. We rolled, spit, and jumped over pews.

Man we had some church!!!!!!!!

I agree with what you are saying.
I think the preaching/teaching of the Word of God is very important.
If we wind up with just a hallelujah hoedown all the time where is the edification?

There may be times, however, when God is dealing with an individual or several people or when there is a specific need and the whole (planned) service may be changed to minister to the ones in need. The whole service might become a prayer meeting or altar service to meet needs present at the time. That, in my opinion, is more important than following our regular ritual.

Sam
06-29-2009, 02:53 PM
This video is on YouTube and hard telling how many have viewed it.

Does this glorify God?
Is this edifying?
Yeah, the scripture referenced in this thread was about all speaking with tongues but I can see how it could apply to a situation like this also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SgByE0pX1M

*AQuietPlace*
06-29-2009, 03:24 PM
and what I think may sound like a paradox to some however I DO believe God can move however He wants to however HE said through an inspired writed that all things must be in order...
Amen.

POWERUP
06-29-2009, 03:27 PM
Sam,

Sad to say, but some would say that was a real move of God. Not Judging by any means, but........................

Where is Borat when you need him?

SeekingOne
06-29-2009, 03:45 PM
This video is on YouTube and hard telling how many have viewed it.

Does this glorify God?
Is this edifying?
Yeah, the scripture referenced in this thread was about all speaking with tongues but I can see how it could apply to a situation like this also.

I couldn't even watch it all, it was so gross to me. I was not raised UPC and had no clue things like that go on there. YUK! A church I used to be a part of was originally a UPC church, but they did not have services like that! Maybe that is why they left the UPC?

nahkoe
06-29-2009, 03:48 PM
I couldn't even watch it all, it was so gross to me. I was not raised UPC and had no clue things like that go on there. YUK! A church I used to be a part of was originally a UPC church, but they did not have services like that! Maybe that is why they left the UPC?

Kenneth Hagen and Kenneth Copeland are definitely NOT UPC.

SeekingOne
06-29-2009, 04:04 PM
Kenneth Hagen and Kenneth Copeland are definitely NOT UPC.

Oh, okay. Sorry. :blush You guys will have to pardon my ignorance with all this stuff. For someone that has not grown up with all this stuff, I have a hard time keeping up with some of the conversations on here. LOL

It's good to know that isn't UPC stuff. I lived a pretty sheltered life I am finding out. I am so glad to have found this forum! It is great to be challenged to read the Bible and find out what IT says instead of what men say. :thumbsup

Hoovie
06-29-2009, 04:14 PM
(I Cor. 14:23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

.................................................. ..................


A lot that goes on in traditional Pentecostal services looks CRAZY. I recently stood in the doorway at a conference that was held in a hotel ballroom. As I looked in, there were people whirling in circles, flopping on the floor, shaking people around, running around and around chairs, etc. I thought then that if a hotel guest walked by and looked in, they would think the people were absolutely mad.

Should this concern us? Does it not matter? Is it a move of God that should not embarrass us? (I'll confess, I felt embarrassed. :blush)

How much should we worry about what people think?


It is apparent from another active thread that some do not believe Cor. 14 applies to us today.

Scott Hutchinson
06-29-2009, 04:20 PM
1 COR. 14 does indeed apply to the body of Christ today.

giftofgrace
06-29-2009, 04:50 PM
I really do not understand how most of our churches don't see this. It's just as clear as Acts 2:38? The main reason that I've heard from ministers, have never talked to my pastor about it, is that everyone speaking in tongues in the congregation is not a bad thing because it's for their edification, which I agree with, in private. Yet in the congregation it is clear that it SHOULD be for the edification of all. Personally, I just recently have been praying alot about this and try to abide by this in service now, as do a few others. I just hope that more of our church, and all, would get a hold of this.

Scott Hutchinson
06-29-2009, 04:53 PM
I really do not understand how most of our churches don't see this. It's just as clear as Acts 2:38? The main reason that I've heard from ministers, have never talked to my pastor about it, is that everyone speaking in tongues in the congregation is not a bad thing because it's for their edification, which I agree with, in private. Yet in the congregation it is clear that it SHOULD be for the edification of all. Personally, I just recently have been praying alot about this and try to abide by this in service now, as do a few others. I just hope that more of our church, and all, would get a hold of this.

Alot of people in Spirit-Filled churches are ignorant,about the proper usage of tongues in a congregational setting,they are so afraid of quenching the spirit,that they actually quench the spirit by the abuse of the gifts.

Jermyn Davidson
06-29-2009, 06:56 PM
:gotcha:foottapI love that analogy Sis. Alvear!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a firm believer in Spiritual Gifts. But having a Jerhico March every service, is not going to save the lost.

But, of course if there is no preaching. Then we had CHURCH!!!!!!! Nobody got saved, nobody got delivered, nobodys marriage put back together. We rolled, spit, and jumped over pews.

Man we had some church!!!!!!!!

Your ref to the "Jericho March" made me laugh!


Christians should be concerned with how what happens in their church is perceived.

It's a delicate situation though. I'd rather be in a church that may be a bit too free and open to the moving of the Holy Ghost versus a church that is a bit too staunch and closed to the moving of the Holy Ghost.

Praxeas
06-29-2009, 07:27 PM
(I Cor. 14:23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

.................................................. ..................


A lot that goes on in traditional Pentecostal services looks CRAZY. I recently stood in the doorway at a conference that was held in a hotel ballroom. As I looked in, there were people whirling in circles, flopping on the floor, shaking people around, running around and around chairs, etc. I thought then that if a hotel guest walked by and looked in, they would think the people were absolutely mad.

Should this concern us? Does it not matter? Is it a move of God that should not embarrass us? (I'll confess, I felt embarrassed. :blush)

How much should we worry about what people think?
I agree. We have some excess that we call "worship" that can appear not just crazy but scary to outsiders.

Esther
06-29-2009, 07:34 PM
Sam,

Sad to say, but some would say that was a real move of God. Not Judging by any means, but........................

Where is Borat when you need him?

Why would we ever need someone that makes fun of God's people?

Jermyn Davidson
07-01-2009, 04:48 PM
[/B]

Why would we ever need someone that makes fun of God's people?

we don't.


I was so grieved when I saw that. Even my unsaved military buddies with whom I saw this movie thought that the whole movie was a wicked waste of resources that bordered on blasphemy.

GrowingPains
07-01-2009, 05:36 PM
(I Cor. 14:23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

.................................................. ..................


A lot that goes on in traditional Pentecostal services looks CRAZY. I recently stood in the doorway at a conference that was held in a hotel ballroom. As I looked in, there were people whirling in circles, flopping on the floor, shaking people around, running around and around chairs, etc. I thought then that if a hotel guest walked by and looked in, they would think the people were absolutely mad.

Should this concern us? Does it not matter? Is it a move of God that should not embarrass us? (I'll confess, I felt embarrassed. :blush)

How much should we worry about what people think?

Day of Pentecost was most assuredly pure and they thought those believers were drunk. What was Paul's primary message here? Was he discouraging Pentecost-like experiences? I don't believe that was his intention with the Corinthian church here.

GrowingPains
07-01-2009, 05:39 PM
Our worship to God is not "reasonable" or understandable to the world. Those who aren't in love look at love birds and want to vomit. They don't get the beaming smiles, corny lines and intoxicating glances. To those in love, it's beautiful. It's a fragrance of death to some, and of life to others. There have also been many that wanted to know more about these worshippers. I refuse to cognitize and tone down my worship because we are afraid what hotel guests are going to think. I'm not advocating being "out of control" and circus-like, but spinning, jumping, dancing, shouting and clapping the hands isn't going to die! The Kingdom of God is a party! Come join and leave your dignified senses at the door.

GrowingPains
07-01-2009, 05:40 PM
We shouldn't be unbalanced, having ONLY wild praise, but also times of discipling, teaching, learning, testimony, meditation, etc... But I wouldn't want to be the Judas measuring it all up and mocking another's praise.

POWERUP
07-02-2009, 07:53 AM
:nahTo all who were offended, I am sorry about the Borat comment. Its just that some of my great friends were part of the wacked out stuff he did at MS. Campmeeting a few years back for his movie.

Once Again I am Sorry

mfblume
07-02-2009, 09:37 AM
(I Cor. 14:23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

.................................................. ..................


A lot that goes on in traditional Pentecostal services looks CRAZY. I recently stood in the doorway at a conference that was held in a hotel ballroom. As I looked in, there were people whirling in circles, flopping on the floor, shaking people around, running around and around chairs, etc. I thought then that if a hotel guest walked by and looked in, they would think the people were absolutely mad.

Should this concern us? Does it not matter? Is it a move of God that should not embarrass us? (I'll confess, I felt embarrassed. :blush)

How much should we worry about what people think?

I am VERY concerned about this verse.

mfblume
07-02-2009, 09:39 AM
Day of Pentecost was most assuredly pure and they thought those believers were drunk. What was Paul's primary message here? Was he discouraging Pentecost-like experiences? I don't believe that was his intention with the Corinthian church here.

Many, as well as myself in the PAST, use this passage in Acts 2 to say that crazy acting is alright. But the context literally only allows us to say the people thought they were drunk DUE TO THE TONGUES ALONE. The text does not allow us to think they were acting drunk like jumping and shouting and falling on the floor. I am not saying a person cannot do that when moved on by God, but that is not the issue in Acts 2 when they said they were drunk. It was tongues alone that inspired that drunk reference.

GrowingPains
07-02-2009, 09:42 AM
Many, as well as myself in the PAST, use this passage in Acts 2 to say that crazy acting is alright. But the context literally only allows us to say the people thought they
were drunk DUE TO THE TONGUES ALONE. The text doe snot allow us to think they were acting drunk like jumping and shouting and falling on the floor. I am not saying a person cannot do that when moved on by God, but that is not the issue in Acts 2 when they said they were drunk. It was tongues alone that inspired that drunk reference.

What scripture do you use to show one has to be "moved on by God" to dance, shout, clap or otherwise praise? On the contrary, I could reference a host of scriptures that concern dancing, clapping, singing, shouting, leaping for joy that are done out of praise alone, and not merrily a response "under the Spirit." (That's not to say we don't have a human response to such a supernatural experience).

mfblume
07-02-2009, 09:45 AM
What scripture do you use to show one has to be "moved on by God" to dance, shout, clap or otherwise praise? On the contrary, I could reference a host of scriptures that concern dancing, clapping, singing, shouting, leaping for joy that are done out of praise alone, and not merrily a response "under the Spirit." (That's not to say we don't have a human response to such a supernatural experience).

I think people react in ways the bible does not dictate simply due to their personalities. I have never danced in reaction to the Spirit. And I cannot find scripture that says the Spirit will do that. But I do not discount it as being the Spirit influencing someone. And it does not have to be the Spirit moving on someone, either, for one to react.

I prayed for sinners who never stepped foot in church before and they suddenly fell down in a clump, and wondered how that happened. Was it God? Yes, I believe so. Is there scripture? Not really. I do not think there has to be scripture for it, though. It's not that sort of issue to require it. :)

But the long and short of it is that the verse in 1 Cor 14 should concern us, though.

Twisp
07-02-2009, 09:45 AM
How concerned are we? Or how concerned SHOULD WE BE? There are really two dynamics here.

How concerned are we? Probably not very concerned. In fact, I've been in MANY MANY MANY services (usually camps and conferences) over the last 25 years where the success meter of the services were based in large part on how crazy things would get. And I'll have to admit that I bought into it for a really long time. It seemed like the crazier the antics of the worshippers (running, jumping, screaming, twirling, rolling, etc.) the more people walked away rejoicing in what a great "move of God" we had.

How concerned should we be? I remember, like the author of this thread, attending a National Youth Convention for ALJC years ago at the Opryland Hotel. We were in one ballroom having our service and across the hall was some professional seminars taking place. The choir was singing a song that went on for (this is NO JOKE) 45 minutes while the place turned into a free-for-all circus. The back doors were propped open for some unknown reason and in the concourse there was a large group of spectators forming. You should have seen the horrified and incredulous looks on the faces of these people. There was no glory being given to God, no edification to the church body, no instruction given to the unbelievers/unlearned. That was a turning point in my life.
I am fairly certain that I was at that particular NYC, early 90's, I believe. Correct? I do not remember the exact length of song, but it was extended.

Twisp
07-02-2009, 09:47 AM
This video is on YouTube and hard telling how many have viewed it.

Does this glorify God?
Is this edifying?
Yeah, the scripture referenced in this thread was about all speaking with tongues but I can see how it could apply to a situation like this also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SgByE0pX1M

I'd say around 224,421 people, give or take a few. lol

mfblume
07-02-2009, 09:47 AM
How concerned are we? Or how concerned SHOULD WE BE? There are really two dynamics here.

How concerned are we? Probably not very concerned. In fact, I've been in MANY MANY MANY services (usually camps and conferences) over the last 25 years where the success meter of the services were based in large part on how crazy things would get. And I'll have to admit that I bought into it for a really long time. It seemed like the crazier the antics of the worshippers (running, jumping, screaming, twirling, rolling, etc.) the more people walked away rejoicing in what a great "move of God" we had.

How concerned should we be? I remember, like the author of this thread, attending a National Youth Convention for ALJC years ago at the Opryland Hotel. We were in one ballroom having our service and across the hall was some professional seminars taking place. The choir was singing a song that went on for (this is NO JOKE) 45 minutes while the place turned into a free-for-all circus. The back doors were propped open for some unknown reason and in the concourse there was a large group of spectators forming. You should have seen the horrified and incredulous looks on the faces of these people. There was no glory being given to God, no edification to the church body, no instruction given to the unbelievers/unlearned. That was a turning point in my life.

I agree with your thoughts. People need more concern over 1 Cor 14.

GrowingPains
07-02-2009, 09:55 AM
I think people react in ways the bible does not dictate simply due to their personalities. I have never danced in reaction to the Spirit. And I cannot find scripture that says the Spirit will do that. But I do not discount it as being the Spirit influencing someone. And it does not have to be the Spirit moving on someone, either, for one to react.

I prayed for sinners who never stepped foot in church before and they suddenly fell down in a clump, and wondered how that happened. Was it God? Yes, I believe so. Is there scripture? Not really. I do not think there has to be scripture for it, though. It's not that sort of issue to require it. :)

But the long and short of it is that the verse in 1 Cor 14 should concern us, though.

mfblume, that was my point in what I was saying. Dancing, Shouting, Rejoicing, etc... are our praise instructions going back to the Old Testament, and that hasn't really changed. Those churches who wait to be "moved on by the Spirit" teach a false theology of worship. Worship is given freely, not because of a feeling.

Sometimes we dance for joy, sometimes because of joy. There's room for both. I think 1 Cor 14 should concern us, but some may not really understand the insanity going on in Corinth at that time, and over-correct their churches back into orthodoxy and liturgy. Not really... but allow me to use some hyperbole here :) The basis of 1 Cor 14 is people not understanding spiritual gifts, and causing disorder because of it.

Pressing-On
07-02-2009, 10:04 AM
How concerned are we? Or how concerned SHOULD WE BE? There are really two dynamics here.

How concerned are we? Probably not very concerned. In fact, I've been in MANY MANY MANY services (usually camps and conferences) over the last 25 years where the success meter of the services were based in large part on how crazy things would get. And I'll have to admit that I bought into it for a really long time. It seemed like the crazier the antics of the worshippers (running, jumping, screaming, twirling, rolling, etc.) the more people walked away rejoicing in what a great "move of God" we had.

How concerned should we be? I remember, like the author of this thread, attending a National Youth Convention for ALJC years ago at the Opryland Hotel. We were in one ballroom having our service and across the hall was some professional seminars taking place. The choir was singing a song that went on for (this is NO JOKE) 45 minutes while the place turned into a free-for-all circus. The back doors were propped open for some unknown reason and in the concourse there was a large group of spectators forming. You should have seen the horrified and incredulous looks on the faces of these people. There was no glory being given to God, no edification to the church body, no instruction given to the unbelievers/unlearned. That was a turning point in my life.
The bold above is what really concerns me.

I am more concerned that we are attempting, it seems, to quench the spirit because some among us have gauged this to be the measure of our spirituality. The wise man knows this is not true. It would be better, IMO, to patiently teach a balance than to throw it out with the bath water. That, of course, starts with the individual leadership.

God's Spirit is still moving and touching lives. As emotional people we do respond with our emotions. It's a given. We just need to learn some self-control in various areas. If you clamp down too hard you get people afraid to respond at all and they are also afraid to yield to prophesy, etc.

Brother Blume is right - some responses are due to a person's personality. I think we need to make room for individual expression, while not allowing some to take it too far.

I knew a woman who was sensitive to the Spirit of God, but she would turn that move into a more carnal desired response and cause confusion with it. One thing that didn't help her - she was too stubborn to listen to patient and kind instruction and wouldn't correct herself. That's when it can get bad, but I don't blame the church for these things. There are some people who will not listen to instruction.

And some leadership will not change their view. I was attending a rally and one of the local men began to dance in a circle. The host pastor said - "There's your true worshiper!" I wanted to say, "What about the Widow who is consistently kneeling before God in prayer for her community and country?" That is a true worshiper, IMO!

It's not all about the dance, but let's not tell people to stop dancing.

*AQuietPlace*
07-02-2009, 10:32 AM
Just a question for discussion purposes:

What goes on in each congregation is pretty much up to that congregation. But, do you think a public hotel ballroom with the doors standing open into the foyer is the place for screaming, whirling, flopping, running in circles, etc?

Hands and voices raised in worship, that's one thing. But twirling round and round in circles while screeching at the top of your lungs is something else entirely. And that particular behavior is encouraged as 'having a real move of God'. If that doesn't happen, it just wasn't a great conference according to many people's standards.

Paul did seem to discourage us from encouraging people to think we are mad. And face it, that behavior, especially in a hotel ballroom, looks mad.

GrowingPains
07-02-2009, 10:42 AM
Just a question for discussion purposes:

What goes on in each congregation is pretty much up to that congregation. But, do you think a public hotel ballroom with the doors standing open into the foyer is the place for screaming, whirling, flopping, running in circles, etc?

Hands and voices raised in worship, that's one thing. But twirling round and round in circles while screeching at the top of your lungs is something else entirely. And that particular behavior is encouraged as 'having a real move of God'. If that doesn't happen, it just wasn't a great conference according to many people's standards.

Paul did seem to discourage us from encouraging people to think we are mad. And face it, that behavior, especially in a hotel ballroom, looks mad.

Perhaps choosing the hotel room for a Pentecostal worship service is not the best idea then. I think it's beautiful, and many that walked into a "crazy Pentecostal worship service" for the first time, though were perplexed, saw beauty and sincerity in it as well. We are definitely "out of our mind" :) Hate to use a tired comparison, but if the world can get excited and BEYOND MAD at a football game, about something that means absolutely nothing, we can freely celebrate a God who means everything.

I don't personally think it's the barometer for "good church", but definitely "fun church" -- perhaps a hotel setting is best for more intimate worship and teaching, if there are some who are concerned with how others see them. I don't have a complex about it. Not ashamed. There's always a few nutcases in every bag, and those folks we just work with.

*AQuietPlace*
07-02-2009, 10:43 AM
if there are some who are concerned with how others see them. I don't have a complex about it. Not ashamed. There's always a few nutcases in every bag, and those folks we just work with.

But should you be? That was Paul's argument for containing the tongues. It apparently mattered to him.

Hoovie
07-02-2009, 10:47 AM
Just a question for discussion purposes:

What goes on in each congregation is pretty much up to that congregation. But, do you think a public hotel ballroom with the doors standing open into the foyer is the place for screaming, whirling, flopping, running in circles, etc?

Hands and voices raised in worship, that's one thing. But twirling round and round in circles while screeching at the top of your lungs is something else entirely. And that particular behavior is encouraged as 'having a real move of God'. If that doesn't happen, it just wasn't a great conference according to many people's standards.

Paul did seem to discourage us from encouraging people to think we are mad. And face it, that behavior, especially in a hotel ballroom, looks mad.

Our congregations are also places of public assembly and worship. I think the same applies.

GrowingPains
07-02-2009, 10:48 AM
But should you be? That was Paul's argument for containing the tongues. It apparently mattered to him.

I don't believe that was Paul's argument, nor his intent. Corinthians dealt directly with a misunderstanding of gifts of the Spirit.

The Corinth church would drop our 21st Century jaws. They were the epitome of "super spiritual", tongue-talking as loud as they could in the middle of teaching, no interpretation... they were fornicating on the grounds that they were "above sin", they were quitting their jobs, trash was filling the streets. Paul had to eventually correct his tone in the first letter of "He's coming soon!" to "He's coming pretty soon, but let's work like he's not coming for awhile."

I fear the day our worship and faith make perfect sense to the unbeliever. The Kingdom of God always had a hidden element, and even the "foolishness of preaching" was a clue. We should accomodate their discipling, but not at the expense of losing who we are. My opinion at least. Most churches don't need to be toned down, they need to be toned up. Exhuberant worship is healthy and right!

As far as the few nut cases, deal with them separately as best you can.

Pressing-On
07-02-2009, 10:53 AM
I fear the day our worship and faith make perfect sense to the unbeliever. The Kingdom of God always had a hidden element, and even the "foolishness of preaching" was a clue.

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup


I Cor 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

GrowingPains
07-02-2009, 10:58 AM
Neither does that give free license to do whatever we want and I believe in "decency and order", but some peoples definition of that is to have an extremely sterile, congnitive, liturgical style of church and worship.

I would to God that we always have liberty and freedom to celebrate when appropriate with our praise, and to love God when appropriate in our corporate worship.

Do I ever get "uncomfortable" with Sis. So-and-Sos exhuberance. Sure. But who am I? Sis. So-and-So (who is a real person ha) has an incredible story and is passionate. Our kids should see church as such a multi-dynamic place: party, fun, feasting on God's Word, quiet reflection, meditation, moving of the Spirit, growing, building, etc...

*AQuietPlace*
07-02-2009, 11:01 AM
Our congregations are also places of public assembly and worship. I think the same applies.
I do, too, but I wish we'd at least apply it to really public places. ;)

GrowingPains
07-02-2009, 11:08 AM
This thread makes me want to blast "Jump Around" by Planet Shakers! My son has that song playing often, and he laughs at me because I love it.

We've been emancipated, freed, liberated.. It gets me excited just thinking about it again! May have to freak someone out today :)

soldoutochrist
07-02-2009, 11:21 AM
I once heard someone comment that "The Holy Spirit is not a spirit of confusion."

While I completely understand someone being overwhelmed with joy and jumping, praising, the clapping of hands, etc., videos like the one that Sam posted sort of make me scratch my head and think of the above quote.

Just my two cents :thumbsup

GrowingPains
07-02-2009, 11:30 AM
I once heard someone comment that "The Holy Spirit is not a spirit of confusion."

While I completely understand someone being overwhelmed with joy and jumping, praising, the clapping of hands, etc., videos like the one that Sam posted sort of make me scratch my head and think of the above quote.

Just my two cents :thumbsup

It's "God is not the author of confusion" from the Text in 1 Cor 14. Another way of saying this "God is not a God of disorder..." Keep in mind here the entire historical veracity of Acts and the the fact that Paul himself was a tongue-talker.

Also, remember that Jesus confounded the foolish many times. Often people were not understanding his parables. Confusion?

I think we are taking the Text out of context when we reference 1 Cor 14 to say exhuberant worship should be "toned down." We would (most all) agree there is a point when things are out of order and chaotic. Thanks for the elders and leaders for these times to help in the church. Even on the wild sea, there is an order! The alternative is not sedate worship for the sake of "order", I don't believe that's what Paul intended.

soldoutochrist
07-02-2009, 06:34 PM
It's "God is not the author of confusion" from the Text in 1 Cor 14. Another way of saying this "God is not a God of disorder..." Keep in mind here the entire historical veracity of Acts and the the fact that Paul himself was a tongue-talker.

Also, remember that Jesus confounded the foolish many times. Often people were not understanding his parables. Confusion?

I think we are taking the Text out of context when we reference 1 Cor 14 to say exhuberant worship should be "toned down." We would (most all) agree there is a point when things are out of order and chaotic. Thanks for the elders and leaders for these times to help in the church. Even on the wild sea, there is an order! The alternative is not sedate worship for the sake of "order", I don't believe that's what Paul intended.


I agree with you for the most part. Exuberant worship is great, while not all may agree with that. I was mostly referencing the holy laughter video.

*AQuietPlace*
07-02-2009, 06:42 PM
I believe in worship that sometimes gets exuberant. But I also believe everything should be done decently and in order.