View Full Version : AFF Press Conference: Timmy Talks
Hoovie
07-04-2009, 10:08 PM
From time to time we here at AFF call a press conference.
Our beloved Timmy will soon give a statement. There has been much speculation regarding Timmy's beliefs, or perhaps more accurately unbeliefs.
Please stay tuned here for a full statement and disclosure of Timmy's Articles Of Faithlessness.
This is Hoovie - I am simply filling in for our chief paparazzi Thadeus.
Sept5SavedTeen
07-05-2009, 06:05 AM
And we give into his need for attention- yet again... From my understanding, he is a former AG, currently agnostic- never apostolic, let's see if I'm wrong.
-Bro. Alex
Sarah
07-05-2009, 06:35 AM
And we give into his need for attention- yet again... From my understanding, he is a former AG, currently agnostic- never apostolic, let's see if I'm wrong.
-Bro. Alex
Well, he's alive, so there's still hope. Praying for Timmy......
Sister Alvear
07-05-2009, 06:43 AM
He works with Paul...
MarcBee
07-05-2009, 07:01 AM
....he prays when he falls off ladders. At least on the way down...
:usa
OnTheFritz
07-05-2009, 08:04 AM
And we give into his need for attention- yet again... From my understanding, he is a former AG, currently agnostic- never apostolic, let's see if I'm wrong.
-Bro. Alex
And? Should that prevent him from posting here?
nahkoe
07-05-2009, 08:40 AM
And? Should that prevent him from posting here?
Of course it should.
:preach
Only those who agree 100% with everything presented here should post here.
The above message presented completely tongue in cheek.
Timmy
07-05-2009, 08:57 AM
Thank you for coming, ladies and gentlemen. It is with regret that I must postpone the press conference until later this afternoon, due to a scheduling conflict. (I'm on my way to church. I'm not kidding! ;))
We apologize for the inconvenience.
U376977
07-05-2009, 09:10 AM
And? Should that prevent him from posting here?
He has not been banned by admins. so apparently it does not matter. I just ignore him because he does not believe that the Bible is inspired. Therefore, we cannot have any discussion/debate about anything because that is my core belief; if he will not believe the Bible then there is nothing I can tell him. I believe in a loving God...he in one that will take pleasure in my pain and ignore my cries for help.
BUT I can much more tolerate his posts than I can those who are so bound by religion that all they can post is the "company line" whether it be UPC or some preacher/pastor who has "taught" them the way.
Apocrypha
07-05-2009, 09:23 AM
He has not been banned by admins. so apparently it does not matter. I just ignore him because he does not believe that the Bible is inspired. Therefore, we cannot have any discussion/debate about anything because that is my core belief; if he will not believe the Bible then there is nothing I can tell him. I believe in a loving God...he in one that will take pleasure in my pain and ignore my cries for help.
BUT I can much more tolerate his posts than I can those who are so bound by religion that all they can post is the "company line" whether it be UPC or some preacher/pastor who has "taught" them the way.
Theres nothing wrong with this being a open forum, even ex-apostolics or burned out christians have a fair say as much as anyone. That's why this board is growing and interesting while other boards like CAF and JP are exclusive and fairly boring (since they ban anyone who doesnt fit in their box)
U376977
07-05-2009, 09:38 AM
Theres nothing wrong with this being a open forum, even ex-apostolics or burned out christians have a fair say as much as anyone. That's why this board is growing and interesting while other boards like CAF and JP are exclusive and fairly boring (since they ban anyone who doesnt fit in their box)
I did not say he should be banned. Only that is has not happened. Nor did I define who should be on the board. The admins did that in the below quote when they said it was for those who held "Apostolic" faith. And again, I can ignore him a lot easier than I can the my-way-is-the-only-way-everyone-else-is-going-to-hell types who have lingered here.
"At AFF our intention is to recognize and allow all viewpoints that exist within the "Apostolic" genre. We recognize that Apostolic includes faith in Jesus Christ, a Oneness view of the Godhead, baptism in Jesus name, and the experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit with tongues."
Sister Alvear
07-05-2009, 12:24 PM
well, Sherri said a long time ago I did not fit in the box...I just know it is all this weight I have gained! ha...
Timmy...well he is at church...so the press conference has been put off...please call me when it starts...
RandyWayne
07-05-2009, 01:20 PM
Theres nothing wrong with this being a open forum, even ex-apostolics or burned out christians have a fair say as much as anyone. That's why this board is growing and interesting while other boards like CAF and JP are exclusive and fairly boring (since they ban anyone who doesnt fit in their box)
I (and my beliefs) can be shoehorned into a little black box quite nicely. Thank you!
OK, maybe it is this box, but it is still a box!
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/Misc%20pics%20for%20posting%20on%20other%20sites/Hellraiser_Box.jpg
Hoovie
07-05-2009, 01:50 PM
The crowd waits... reporters are murmering amongst each other - some impatient some squabbling...
MarcBee
07-05-2009, 02:26 PM
I did not say he should be banned. Only that is has not happened. Nor did I define who should be on the board. The admins did that in the below quote when they said it was for those who held "Apostolic" faith....
"At AFF our intention is to recognize and allow all viewpoints that exist within the "Apostolic" genre. We recognize that Apostolic includes faith in Jesus Christ, a Oneness view of the Godhead, baptism in Jesus name, and the experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit with tongues."
Additionally to the above quoted inclusiveness, apparently anyone who is merely willing to discuss any of the above items is also welcome, because (pending the Press Conference) Timmy would not claim to "believe in" any of the above. The contrary, each one of his posts contains a small spam pointing to his Ex-Pentecostal website, which if casually browsed, reads more like an anti-Pentecostal website, IMO. To wit, the most prominent, popular topic heading over there is, "Pentecostalism and Insanity" with no TIC about it.
Apparently if a guy is an "enemy of the gospel" but manages to exhibit humor, affability, and citizenship, that results in effect a free pass welcome, and a dozen Happy Birthdays. A muslim who really believes something about his god would instead get smacked around.
:usa
OnTheFritz
07-05-2009, 02:48 PM
Additionally to the above quoted inclusiveness, apparently anyone who is merely willing to discuss any of the above items is also welcome, because (pending the Press Conference) Timmy would not claim to "believe in" any of the above.
Yep. Sounds good to me. As long as said person is polite, fair and respectful -- which of course gives him a leg up over many of the "confirmed" Christians on the forum.
... plus, I don't really buy everything Timmy claims to believe (or not believe)... Pot Stirrer is a big responsibility, and sometimes he just really has to sell it with his outlandish claims... :blah
MarcBee
07-05-2009, 02:59 PM
Yep. Sounds good to me...
Me too. Or as T would say,
m2.
:usa
Timmy
07-05-2009, 03:08 PM
Patience, my friends. Family matters intrude.
berkeley
07-05-2009, 03:43 PM
Boustro, we don't hav all day!!!
Timmy
07-05-2009, 05:36 PM
Sorry, but I may put this on hold for a while. Kinda down, right now. Wife's sister is in the hospital, outlook very grim. I won't be put out, if anyone wants to pray for her.
nahkoe
07-05-2009, 05:57 PM
Sorry, but I may put this on hold for a while. Kinda down, right now. Wife's sister is in the hospital, outlook very grim. I won't be put out, if anyone wants to pray for her.
I'm sorry. :(
*AQuietPlace*
07-05-2009, 06:00 PM
Sorry, but I may put this on hold for a while. Kinda down, right now. Wife's sister is in the hospital, outlook very grim. I won't be put out, if anyone wants to pray for her.
So sorry. Will pray.
Sinatra
07-05-2009, 07:41 PM
Timmy, so sorry to read about your wife's sister. I will be praying for all affected by this situation.
Sinatra
Hoovie
07-05-2009, 10:00 PM
Sorry, but I may put this on hold for a while. Kinda down, right now. Wife's sister is in the hospital, outlook very grim. I won't be put out, if anyone wants to pray for her.
Timmy, take you time. You know I enjoy the banter, but this is a real serious matter you have. My prayers are offered.
Blessings.
Falla39
07-05-2009, 10:11 PM
Great Lord God,
We humbly ask that if You would see fit, touch and raise up Timmy's sister in law,
in Jesus Name!
Hugs,
Falla39
Shawn
07-06-2009, 12:28 AM
Great Lord God,
We humbly ask that if You would see fit, touch and raise up Timmy's sister in law,
in Jesus Name!
Hugs,
Falla39
amen.
Sister Alvear
07-06-2009, 07:30 AM
praying
Timmy
07-06-2009, 09:11 AM
Thanks everyone, for your concern. Just took my wife to the airport.
It's meningitis, they say. High fever, terrible pain.
Thanks everyone, for your concern. Just took my wife to the airport.
It's meningitis, they say. High fever, terrible pain.
There was a young teenager in our church who had meningitis with a very grim outlook-- Prayer changed things.
We will pray for your wife's sister... as well as the family. Prayer can make a difference.
Cindy
07-06-2009, 09:44 AM
Timmy, the Lord healed my youngest daughter of Meningitis.I will be praying for your sister-in-law.
crakjak
07-06-2009, 10:02 AM
Great Lord God,
We humbly ask that if You would see fit, touch and raise up Timmy's sister in law,
in Jesus Name!
Hugs,
Falla39
Amen.
mfblume
07-06-2009, 01:30 PM
He has not been banned by admins. so apparently it does not matter. I just ignore him because he does not believe that the Bible is inspired. Therefore, we cannot have any discussion/debate about anything because that is my core belief; if he will not believe the Bible then there is nothing I can tell him. I believe in a loving God...he in one that will take pleasure in my pain and ignore my cries for help.
BUT I can much more tolerate his posts than I can those who are so bound by religion that all they can post is the "company line" whether it be UPC or some preacher/pastor who has "taught" them the way.
One thing about folks like Timmy is that they present a challenge to believers to be able to each them without having to say "Believe the Bible, or else we cannot even talk." There have been many who could deal with such people. And I think there is a need.
So, thanks, Timmy! :D
And we will be in prayer for your loved one.
Timmy
07-06-2009, 03:37 PM
One thing about folks like Timmy is that they present a challenge to believers to be able to each them without having to say "Believe the Bible, or else we cannot even talk." There have been many who could deal with such people. And I think there is a need.
So, thanks, Timmy! :D
All part of the job. :heeheehee
And we will be in prayer for your loved one.
Thanks.
OnTheFritz
07-06-2009, 04:19 PM
One thing about folks like Timmy is that they present a challenge to believers to be able to each them without having to say "Believe the Bible, or else we cannot even talk." There have been many who could deal with such people. And I think there is a need.
So, thanks, Timmy! :D
And we will be in prayer for your loved one.
Agreed! Appreciate your involvement on the forum. Praying for your wife's sister.
Jermyn Davidson
07-06-2009, 04:54 PM
Timmy,
I hope your sister in law will be ok.
I too will pray for her.
En el nombre de Jesus Cristo!!!!
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 05:36 PM
Yeah, I vote "no" on the "Crucify Him" button.
The accusations sound like he is a recruiter, head-hunting for the "trophies of hell" -- either way, if the book wasn't open for him, he wouldn't be here Timmy wants to believe.
Timmy
07-07-2009, 09:15 AM
Apparently, there is some uncertainty in the diagnosis. Yesterday, she was able to eat some, so that's good. Still a lot of pain in her legs and back. Thanks, all, for your support.
I'll get to making my statement some time today, barring unforeseen circumstances. ;)
KWSS1976
07-07-2009, 09:29 AM
Hey Timmy mabey when you make your announcement you can get on the front page of the news and kick MJ off it would not hurt me one bit.....LOL
Timmy
07-08-2009, 11:33 AM
Thanks again for coming, and I apologize for the delay. And thank you, Stephen, for the opportunity to clarify my views and beliefs. I will "read" a prepared statement, and then open it up for questions, as time allows. My prepared statement:
---------------------------------------------------------------
I will simply outline my beliefs, without much attention to the "whys", nor to coercion to my way of thinking. There isn't a lot to the "why", other than this: it's what I have found to be the best fit with reality. That said, I fully acknowledge that I could be wrong. Maybe a little wrong in some details, maybe a lot wrong in details and in the big picture. But again, it's what I have concluded to be most consistent with reality, with logic, and with common sense. Note: An implied "most likely" could be tacked on to virtually every one of my statements of belief, and of course, this is all IMO!
GOD
As to God's existence (ignoring for the moment His detailed attributes), I am agnostic. He may or may not exist, and there is no way of knowing the answer to this question definitively. To me, it makes more sense for there to be a Creator, and if He does exist, I lean to deism. All stories of His intervening in the affairs of man can be explained in other ways, and (IMO) ways that are more plausible than actual divine intervention. (Please, hold the questions till the end. :lol)
If God does exist, His attributes are anyone's guess. The Bible lists a lot of such guesses, some of which make sense, and some of which are at odds with each other and with the stories of His actions.
THE BIBLE
Centuries ago, mankind was trying to figure things out. Where did we come from and why are we here? What are we supposed to do? How can I make that guy stop stealing my stuff? In the process, people of various cultures and at various times cooked up many different stories, and imagined some things that God might say (such as commandments, complete with consequences for disobeying) and do (such as miracles, which add weight to the commandments). Some of them made a lot of sense, and still do today. Some no longer make sense. There is a lot of debate over which things still make sense and which do not.
Some things attributed to God are suspiciously self-serving to the ones who did the attributing. An army conquers a city, kills the males of all ages and the older females that were not virgins. They kept the young girls for themselves. They say God told them to. Okaaaay. A teenage girl is engaged to be married. Turns out she's pregnant. She says God made her pregnant. Okaaaay. Preacher kicks a sick lady in the stomach. Says God told him to. Riiiight.
OK, here's my belief: people either make stuff up, or misconstrue things like hunches and intuition that happen to be true, or sometimes are just plain crazy, when they claim that God talks to them. They've been doing it for many centuries. Sometimes, other people believe them. Sometimes, religions are started based on what they say, and on what is written down.
SIN
Man has a lot of potential for evil, no doubt about that. Much of the Bible is dedicated to lists of evil things. Again, someone thought it was pretty bad to lie, and wrote down a rule. Makes sense. Someone wrote a rule about killing. Fine. Then there are rules about what we can and can't eat or wear, what we must believe, how we should punish rebellious children, etc., etc. Again, some of these rules make sense. Some don't.
What's on my list? Well, it's not so much a list of dos and don'ts as it is a guiding principle, which, as it turns out, is Biblical: Love your neighbor. That's Jesus's famous law number two. From that and law number one (love God), all the law is derived, He said. Well, from those two laws, there is no way to derive certain other detailed rules, such as women must never cut their hair, or you must never fall in love with someone of the same gender. You need other scriptures for those rules.
FRUIT
Here is something I can admire about the Bible: it tells us how we can recognize someone that is following Him. The problem is that if we apply it, just as it is spelled out in several places in scripture, we will put a lot of people in that boat that, well, some people wouldn't expect to see in there. Buddhists, atheists, pagans, etc. They have love one for another. They have joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. Oops.
And we can judge a movement, or a "faith", or a fellowship, or even a local church by its fruit, too. If it is plagued with abuse, corruption, confusion, fights and arguments, one-upmanship, etc., we can conclude that there's something wrong. Draw your own conclusions!
FUTILITY OF MAN'S EFFORTS
Nobody is perfect. Some of us have made a mess of things. Drugs, crime, abuse, etc. What's the solution? Some would say that only Jesus can clean us up. Get saved, and your life can be changed. Maybe not instantly, but God will work on it, and things will be fine after a while. Yes, it works, for some. Sometimes it "sticks", too. Not always, but sometimes. But this is not the only way to fix a messed up life. There are other ways to get help, and even plain old self-determination can work wonders. And I contend that when the "Christian way" does work, it is due to the person's own "human effort", infused with a large dose of confidence based on faith. He is told that Jesus will help him, so he accepts that, and by George, it's working! He gives up cigarettes or booze or whatever it is. And hey, if it works, it works.
MIRACLES
One problem with miracles is that you never know if one really happened or not. Things happen almost routinely that seem to violate the laws of nature. Sick people are given mere weeks to live, and yet they recover. Parking places appear right by the entrance.
Some are looking for miracles everywhere. If something nice happens, it's always "a God thing". Nothing ever is accomplished by human effort. I think the reason for this is simple: fear. They think that God will be angry with them if they ever don't acknowledge His actions, or if they put any amount of trust in their own efforts (or their doctors' or anyone's) rather than in God. Me? I think God is pleased when His children accomplish things, from simple acts of kindness to amazing feats of engineering, or medicine, etc.
Another problem with miracles is their arbitrariness. We see that one person is healed (or gets better due to medication and/or natural processes) and another is not, despite the desperate prayers. We are forced to say things like "God knows better" or "he got his healing in Heaven". If you take comfort in such things, I guess I shouldn't complain. I get no comfort from them. I see can't-lose "promises", which is not a good thing: it just means we can never tell if such a promise is kept or not.
PROMISES
"I will never leave you nor forsake you." Nice. So, if we ever feel alone or forsaken, we're wrong! God is always there by your side, if you know it or not. When my wife was little, He was right there when that man, a friend of the family and a pillar of the church, had his way with her (and most of her siblings, too).
"The prayer of faith will save the sick." Nuff said.
"Train up a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it." Nuff said.
TONGUES
Initial evidence? Pointless evidence, actually. Anyone can babble. And if the desire is there, one can start babbling without knowing whether it's really God's spirit "giving the utterance" or just mimicry -- a learned behavior. Expectations are high. Adrenaline flows. Awareness is altered. The power of suggestion is at work, even blatant how-to teaching in some cases.
And about that prayer language: among the things that "don't make sense", this is high on my list! So, what's the deal? God doesn't understand English all that well, so "tongues" works better? Is it more likely to get an answer?
PROPHECY, WORDS OF KNOWLEDGE, STILL SMALL VOICE, AUDIBLE VOICE, ETC.
God talks to people all the time, apparently. He did it back in the OT and NT times, and He's still at it. Sometimes He says weird things, too. Kill your child. Colonize a planet. But we can't second guess God, can we? He's God! He can say whatever He wants!
OK, here's my belief on this: God never talks to people and He never has. Simple. No need to wonder, "Was that from God?"
---------------------------------------------------------------
So there you have it. I don't actually have much time for questions right now, but submit them in "writing" and I will be happy to address them at a later time.
By the way, my sister-in-law's condition is improving somewhat. Thank the Lord! :winkgrin
KWSS1976
07-08-2009, 12:00 PM
What I want to know is how many people have prayed on here for an outcome in a certain situation to come out right and it came out wrong not the way you have prayed then I will bring this up why pray when God already knows the outcome I don't think we are strong enough to change his thoughts on the outcome of things.....
HopePreacher
07-08-2009, 12:08 PM
Thank you timmy. I found my self in every question you asked, but I have come to different conclusions. One who claims to be a person of faith that has not asked those same questions is a victim of fear rather than faith (IMO) - they are afraid to ask the questions for fear that the answers will destroy their faith. I asked the questions and the answers I found reinforced my faith.
I am sorry that your questioning lead you to a different outcome, but hey; the day isn't over and perhaps, just perhaps, there will be a day when you say, "Wow! I didn't know that."
Be Blessed friend.
GrowingPains
07-08-2009, 12:15 PM
What I want to know is how many people have prayed on here for an outcome in a certain situation to come out right and it came out wrong not the way you have prayed then I will bring this up why pray when God already knows the outcome I don't think we are strong enough to change his thoughts on the outcome of things.....
Prayer is about a lot more than answers. Prayer is about us and our faith. If you were to look-up all the passages on faith, there is a common thread, not our need, US! There are scores of examples where God changes his mind (Hezekiah) or where he was moved with compassion (woman with the issue). Prayer changes things, but more importantly, prayers changes us.
Timmy
07-08-2009, 01:37 PM
Thank you timmy. I found my self in every question you asked, but I have come to different conclusions. One who claims to be a person of faith that has not asked those same questions is a victim of fear rather than faith (IMO) - they are afraid to ask the questions for fear that the answers will destroy their faith. I asked the questions and the answers I found reinforced my faith.
I can certainly understand that different people come to different conclusions, even when presented with nearly the same data. Not sure why, but that's just the way it is, I guess.
I am sorry that your questioning lead you to a different outcome, but hey; the day isn't over and perhaps, just perhaps, there will be a day when you say, "Wow! I didn't know that."
Be Blessed friend.
I could say the analogous thing to you, BTW: I am sorry that you came to a different conclusion, and maybe you will see the light some day! :heeheehee
*AQuietPlace*
07-08-2009, 02:03 PM
I have a question for you, and I promise that I don't mean it in a snotty way. ;) I am genuinely curious.
Since these are your beliefs, why do you spend so much time on this forum? If you're not even sure there is a God, and you definitely believe that he pays no attention to us at all... why does this forum even hold your interest?
Like I said, just curious. :)
Timmy
07-08-2009, 02:18 PM
I have a question for you, and I promise that I don't mean it in a snotty way. ;) I am genuinely curious.
Since these are your beliefs, why do you spend so much time on this forum? If you're not even sure there is a God, and you definitely believe that he pays no attention to us at all... why does this forum even hold your interest?
Like I said, just curious. :)
An excellent question! Thanks for asking. The answer is very simple:
I have a burden for the "lost". :toofunny
But that's only half-joking (if that). ;) I really do believe that some of the beliefs you guys adhere to are harmful. You would do well at least to consider this, IMO. A second reason:
I enjoy prompting people to think. To defend their ideas. To exercise 1 Peter 3:15, "... be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you ...". I think a lot of Christians are too complacent in "managing" what they believe. They believe what they are told to believe, without giving much attention to why. There's a lot of implied "because I said so" reasons, and it's been that way for decades. Centuries, actually.
Timmy
07-08-2009, 02:19 PM
Additional sections that could have gone into my "statement" are popping into mind. Maybe there will be an addendum.
Shawn
07-08-2009, 02:28 PM
Hey friend, do you believe Jesus was/is who he said he is.
GrowingPains
07-08-2009, 02:30 PM
Hey friend, do you believe Jesus was/is who he said he is.
Shawn, that is the crux of the whole Deist matter right there.
Timmy
07-08-2009, 02:44 PM
Hey friend, do you believe Jesus was/is who he said he is.
I'm agnostic (don't know, don't believe I can know) about that, leaning toward skeptical. ;) I am also somewhat skeptical that all the recorded sayings of Jesus are accurate. There could have been additions and edits after the fact.
KWSS1976
07-08-2009, 02:47 PM
If man was involved which there was I am pretty sure there are mistakes and edits...
GrowingPains
07-08-2009, 02:48 PM
I'm agnostic (don't know, don't believe I can know) about that, leaning toward skeptical. ;) I am also somewhat skeptical that all the recorded sayings of Jesus are accurate. There could have been additions and edits after the fact.
You know we could comfortably doubt until we aren't sure we as a human being that we are really real. There's a psych disorder for that, Timmy :ursofunny
Point being, at some point you have to recognize nothing is sealed tight for our inspection, but trust enough to follow the evidence. Timmy, it's possible that man never landed on the moon. I mean, people could have bamboozled us on that one. At some point, I trust the credibility of the men and women who reported it, shown us the evidence and accept it as fact.
Timmy
07-08-2009, 02:52 PM
I'm agnostic (don't know, don't believe I can know) about that, leaning toward skeptical. ;) I am also somewhat skeptical that all the recorded sayings of Jesus are accurate. There could have been additions and edits after the fact.
Which, to me, doesn't detract from the value of some of His teachings, BTW. Whether a literal man named Jesus said (or did) everything attributed to Him or not, the teaching was revolutionary and (mostly) worth following. Jefferson-style!
(Referring to Thomas Jefferson's admiration of Jesus's moral code, and his book The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, which is his compilation of the Jesus's teachings. Bought a copy in Virginia a while back, but haven't perused it yet.)
KWSS1976
07-08-2009, 02:53 PM
Growing Pains evidence is the key word....What evidence do we have to say the bible is 100% totally correct...We have evidence man landed on the moon
OnTheFritz
07-08-2009, 02:59 PM
Growing Pains evidence is the key word....What evidence do we have to say the bible is 100% totally correct...We have evidence man landed on the moon
It was on TV, no less. Has to be real. :thumbsup
Timmy
07-08-2009, 03:00 PM
If man was involved which there was I am pretty sure there are mistakes and edits...
Growing Pains evidence is the key word....What evidence do we have to say the bible is 100% totally correct...We have evidence man landed on the moon
No wonder somebody mistook one of your posts for mine, the other day! :toofunny
KWSS1976
07-08-2009, 03:02 PM
I noticed that too Timmy...LOL
KWSS1976
07-08-2009, 03:05 PM
Just look at the shape the world is in thats proof right there that man can screw something up....
GrowingPains
07-08-2009, 03:07 PM
Growing Pains evidence is the key word....What evidence do we have to say the bible is 100% totally correct...We have evidence man landed on the moon
Romans 1 says plenty on this.
The historicity and wide-documented evidence of Christ is also very secure.
You can't simply say He was a good man, and deny every word that came out of his mouth. He was either insane or he was the Son of God. There's no "he was a good man with nobel ideas" about it. That's picking and choosing to the umpteenth degree.
Lee Strobel has some great documentation and literature about Christ's life, his truth claims and even his resurrection. Plenty of proof.
Man on the Moon. We could say it was all a TV studio and fake. You see, doubt has no real end.
GrowingPains
07-08-2009, 03:09 PM
Just look at the shape the world is in thats proof right there that man can screw something up....
Need I remind you of the times when man has also gotten it wrong. It's a balancing act. Just like nature. It appears beautiful, and at times above man, but then we see the species that eat their own, that are blood savages, etc It's representative as man. That's why the whole Lion laying with the Lamb is symbolic of creation groaning together for that day.
KWSS1976
07-08-2009, 03:10 PM
You can go see the moon lander and rover it is real and pictures and video there is physical proof it happened..
KWSS1976
07-08-2009, 03:13 PM
Was Lee Strobel there there to see the resurrection?????Whoever Lee Strobel is...
*AQuietPlace*
07-08-2009, 03:15 PM
You can go see the moon lander and rover it is real and pictures and video there is physical proof it happened..
It could have all been faked. Easily.
KWSS1976
07-08-2009, 03:17 PM
So could the bible....
Hoovie
07-08-2009, 03:22 PM
Thanks Timmy. Sorry your handlers scooted you off stage before the Press could descend on you....
Enjoyed the Statement - hey I even agree on a point or two at least! I will have some questions later.
PS
Your views are what the Emergent Church fearful should be worried about - not ties and pulpits.
Timmy
07-08-2009, 03:58 PM
Thanks Timmy. Sorry your handlers scooted you off stage before the Press could descend on you....
Enjoyed the Statement - hey I even agree on a point or two at least! I will have some questions later.
PS
Your views are what the Emergent Church fearful should be worried about - not ties and pulpits.
:thumbsup
OnTheFritz
07-08-2009, 04:36 PM
You can go see the moon lander and rover it is real and pictures and video there is physical proof it happened..
Hahaha :ursofunny So, could we not have seen the moon lander and rover before they went to the moon and made the same claim? They had to build SOMETHING to use on the soundstage....
GrowingPains
07-08-2009, 04:38 PM
You can go see the moon lander and rover it is real and pictures and video there is physical proof it happened..
But how do you know? How do you know the pics are real? How can you trust the video in an age where anything can be reproduced? It's a big conspiracy...
GrowingPains
07-08-2009, 04:38 PM
Was Lee Strobel there there to see the resurrection?????Whoever Lee Strobel is...
Read about him. He's like you or I and went on a mission to find EVIDENCE that pointed to the credibility of Christ and what He said.
GrowingPains
07-08-2009, 04:39 PM
So could the bible....
Exactly our point. You trust the moon though.... or at least the evidence you've seen, but there's always a chance you're wrong. (Unless you've personally suited up and went there, and then, how do you know it wasn't virtual, and all trickery?)
Timmy
07-08-2009, 04:46 PM
But there is a fundamental difference between believing in the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible vs the Moon landing. The former can cause serious problems for people, and the latter is very unlikely to do so. Case in point: believing and obeying James 5:14-15 can and does get people killed.
(If one answers "yeah but we are also to use common sense", that's fine, but there are people who took that scripture very literally, which clearly states what to do for sick people, and what will happen. Who can blame them?)
GrowingPains
07-08-2009, 05:03 PM
But there is a fundamental difference between believing in the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible vs the Moon landing. The former can cause serious problems for people, and the latter is very unlikely to do so. Case in point: believing and obeying James 5:14-15 can and does get people killed.
(If one answers "yeah but we are also to use common sense", that's fine, but there are people who took that scripture very literally, which clearly states what to do for sick people, and what will happen. Who can blame them?)
And you can find other examples too... which is why we emphasize correct biblical exegesis. There are freaks that are Deist, Agnostics, Atheists, Baptist and yes, even Pentecostal. Sorry to tell you.
Timmy
07-08-2009, 05:20 PM
And you can find other examples too... which is why we emphasize correct biblical exegesis. There are freaks that are Deist, Agnostics, Atheists, Baptist and yes, even Pentecostal. Sorry to tell you.
But why should "correct biblical exegesis" be both 1) so important and 2) so difficult? That scripture says what it says. Why would God "write" such a dangerous instruction in the instruction manual for life?
Shawn
07-08-2009, 06:26 PM
I guess I believe Jesus is who he said he was. I ask him everyday to open my understanding. Not because I want to be a know it all.....but, because I want this to end right. I don't believe he's a 'gotcha' god......even though that's where many will lead you. A lot of things I thought were heaven and hell issues I don't quite see that way. I still cling to a oneness view because it makes the m ost sence......I think there will always be some mystery to it.......And I think I'd tell everyone to be baptized in Jesus name and seek the HG.
I also believe God's Purpose, ways and means are much greater than we give him credit.
I believe the original writings that went into bible were by men filled with the spirit and are 100% inspired by God.
Do I believe the KJV is without error.....no, those days are gone. I personally think anything the RCC got a hold of has been misused and often tampered with. I believe the King James does have errors in the translation-you don't have to go to far to see these.
I also believe other things that maybe were left out could of been included and many things that didn't line up with the RCC were destroyed.
my opinions and if I'm wrong may the Lord open my understanding.
I believe God is Love.
mizpeh
07-08-2009, 10:03 PM
But there is a fundamental difference between believing in the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible vs the Moon landing. The former can cause serious problems for people, and the latter is very unlikely to do so. Case in point: believing and obeying James 5:14-15 can and does get people killed.
(If one answers "yeah but we are also to use common sense", that's fine, but there are people who took that scripture very literally, which clearly states what to do for sick people, and what will happen. Who can blame them?)
Dying is not the end of us, it's coming into the presence of the Lord. I'm looking forward to my homecoming and my change.
GrowingPains
07-08-2009, 10:43 PM
But why should "correct biblical exegesis" be both 1) so important and 2) so difficult? That scripture says what it says. Why would God "write" such a dangerous instruction in the instruction manual for life?
Like any book of antiquity. Time has far-removed us from time, place, culture, language, etc... Same would go for Homer's Ilead.
The basics aren't that difficult to understand and receive.
Timmy
07-08-2009, 10:49 PM
Like any book of antiquity. Time has far-removed us from time, place, culture, language, etc... Same would go for Homer's Ilead.
The basics aren't that difficult to understand and receive.
Nobody claims that God wrote the Iliad! :lol
*AQuietPlace*
07-09-2009, 07:23 AM
To me, what defies logic is believing that there is a God, but believing that he's not interested in us. What's the point? Create a huge, involved, intricate creation.... and then ignore it? None of us would do that. It's not natural.
No, if there is a God, he has to be interested in us. Nothing else makes the least bit of sense. It's illogical.
Timmy
07-09-2009, 08:09 AM
To me, what defies logic is believing that there is a God, but believing that he's not interested in us. What's the point? Create a huge, involved, intricate creation.... and then ignore it? None of us would do that. It's not natural.
No, if there is a God, he has to be interested in us. Nothing else makes the least bit of sense. It's illogical.
Logic?! :spit
OK, but you do have a point. Never mind that you're doing what I've been told not to do: compare God with us (bolded above). God is way smarter than we are, you see, so He can do anything He wants, for His own reasons, without explaining everything to us, without doing everything we think He should do, etc. etc., which is why killing babies isn't evil (when God does it). But yes, you do have a point.
But really, what's so strange about creating a universe, setting it in motion with certain laws of physics in place, and seeing what happens? I haven't said (that I recall) that He is not interested. He may very well be watching. He may even have opinions on whether certain things we humans do are good or bad. Dunno.
What I do know for a fact is that we are here. We live, think, act. There are some things that we should be doing, about which there is almost universal agreement (I think): love and respect each other. Live at peace with each other, to the extent possible (OK, not everyone agrees on this!). Raise our families (if we have families). Learn. Invent. Enjoy life!
And for all I know, you guys could be right. There could very well be a Truth. The Truth that all religions strive to find. And for all I know, your religion could be the lucky one that got it right, and everyone that guesses that that's the one could be rewarded, and the ones who guessed wrong could very well be punished forever. Hard to believe that God considers "luck" to be equal to "justice", though!
Yes, yes, I know, luck has nothing to do with it. You have proof, of some kind (you feel it in your spirit, or some such). Or you have faith without proof. (John 20:29, after all.) Well, not everyone is lucky enough to have heard the message and believed it, via this proof or blind faith, so yes, luck has everything to do with it!
Timmy
07-09-2009, 08:21 AM
Update on my sis-in-law: she's getting better. Talking in short sentence (vs single words), asking about work, etc. This is a good thing: there was concern about regaining cognitive abilities etc., earlier. Getting physical therapy. Walked 100 ft yesterday. Woohoo! :)
*AQuietPlace*
07-09-2009, 08:45 AM
So we're God's ant farm? :D
Sorry, not buying it. :)
Yes, logic. You think your belief is logical, I think it's no more logical than my belief. :)
Great news about your sister-in-law.
mizpeh
07-09-2009, 09:12 AM
An excellent question! Thanks for asking. The answer is very simple:
I have a burden for the "lost". :toofunny
But that's only half-joking (if that). ;) I really do believe that some of the beliefs you guys adhere to are harmful. You would do well at least to consider this, IMO. A second reason:
I enjoy prompting people to think. To defend their ideas. To exercise 1 Peter 3:15, "... be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you ...". I think a lot of Christians are too complacent in "managing" what they believe. They believe what they are told to believe, without giving much attention to why. There's a lot of implied "because I said so" reasons, and it's been that way for decades. Centuries, actually.But, Timmy, why AFF? Why not an AOG or some type of Pentecostal forum? Why a Oneness Pentecostal forum? (I believe you were raised AOG)
Timmy
07-09-2009, 09:17 AM
But, Timmy, why AFF? Why not an AOG or some type of Pentecostal forum? Why a Oneness Pentecostal forum? (I believe you were raised AOG)
I found FCF and NFCF via the ex-pente forum, long before I knew any AOG forums existed. And I still haven't found the AOG equivalent of AFF, if it exists. (I'm agnostic about that, too! :lol) The ones I have found since, well, just don't look like much fun. ;)
Timmy
07-09-2009, 09:19 AM
So we're God's ant farm? :D
Sorry, not buying it. :)
Yes, logic. You think your belief is logical, I think it's no more logical than my belief. :)
Great news about your sister-in-law.
There you go again! Deciding for yourself what makes sense for God to do! :heeheehee
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 09:26 AM
Nobody claims that God wrote the Iliad! :lol
That really wasn't the point.
The point was with regard to your question of interpretation.
I find it funny that the work of Homer has no scrutiny, yet the New Testament, much more credible by literary standards, has endured the fiercest attacks for two centuries.
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 09:29 AM
Logic?! :spit
OK, but you do have a point. Never mind that you're doing what I've been told not to do: compare God with us (bolded above). God is way smarter than we are, you see, so He can do anything He wants, for His own reasons, without explaining everything to us, without doing everything we think He should do, etc. etc., which is why killing babies isn't evil (when God does it). But yes, you do have a point.
But really, what's so strange about creating a universe, setting it in motion with certain laws of physics in place, and seeing what happens? I haven't said (that I recall) that He is not interested. He may very well be watching. He may even have opinions on whether certain things we humans do are good or bad. Dunno.
What I do know for a fact is that we are here. We live, think, act. There are some things that we should be doing, about which there is almost universal agreement (I think): love and respect each other. Live at peace with each other, to the extent possible (OK, not everyone agrees on this!). Raise our families (if we have families). Learn. Invent. Enjoy life!
And for all I know, you guys could be right. There could very well be a Truth. The Truth that all religions strive to find. And for all I know, your religion could be the lucky one that got it right, and everyone that guesses that that's the one could be rewarded, and the ones who guessed wrong could very well be punished forever. Hard to believe that God considers "luck" to be equal to "justice", though!
Yes, yes, I know, luck has nothing to do with it. You have proof, of some kind (you feel it in your spirit, or some such). Or you have faith without proof. (John 20:29, after all.) Well, not everyone is lucky enough to have heard the message and believed it, via this proof or blind faith, so yes, luck has everything to do with it!
If He's interested, then it's not a major step of faith to say He would involve Himself. Timmy, thinking is a powerful tool, but can also be a woeful inhibitor. It's easy to ask questions and doubt, but much harder to step up to the answers. We cannot wallow our whole life under the shade tree called doubt, thinking it will screen us, and except us from God.
Timmy, God loves you! You... specifically you! That's the message of all eternity right there!
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 09:32 AM
I found FCF and NFCF via the ex-pente forum, long before I knew any AOG forums existed. And I still haven't found the AOG equivalent of AFF, if it exists. (I'm agnostic about that, too! :lol) The ones I have found since, well, just don't look like much fun. ;)
Timmy the Skeptic, I want to remind you that doubt is only the beginning of wisdom, not the end.
Timmy
07-09-2009, 09:42 AM
That really wasn't the point.
The point was with regard to your question of interpretation.
I find it funny that the work of Homer has no scrutiny, yet the New Testament, much more credible by literary standards, has endured the fiercest attacks for two centuries.
No scrutiny? Why would it have to be scrutinized? That was the point I was making.
(If by scrutiny you mean investigations into The Iliad's authorship, yes, it has undergone scrutiny. Some scholars don't believe there was a man Homer, as Iliad author at least, but that the poems attributed to him originated as oral tradition. But nobody's eternal fate rests on the truth of that matter!)
Back to my question of interpretation. So, you would have me and the rest of the human race believe that God set down The Rules, at certain times of history, using terminology particular to those times and cultures, never modernizing them, but they are applicable and binding on all humanity (even the huge portion of humanity that has never even seen The Rules), though they are becoming farther and farther removed from today's time and culture, making it harder to follow The Rules (again, witness the arguing and fighting over what they really mean and which ones still apply)?
Mmmmmkay.
Timmy
07-09-2009, 09:43 AM
Timmy the Skeptic, I want to remind you that doubt is only the beginning of wisdom, not the end.
Cool!
Timmy
07-09-2009, 09:48 AM
If He's interested, then it's not a major step of faith to say He would involve Himself. Timmy, thinking is a powerful tool, but can also be a woeful inhibitor. It's easy to ask questions and doubt, but much harder to step up to the answers. We cannot wallow our whole life under the shade tree called doubt, thinking it will screen us, and except us from God.
Timmy, God loves you! You... specifically you! That's the message of all eternity right there!
Oh I agree that there are certain things that one cannot believe unless one stops thinking! :toofunny
Look, all I'm doing is figuring out what to believe, based on the information available to me. We are all doing that, I think. And yes, it is reasonable to think that God, if interested in us, may intervene in our world, at times. But it is also reasonable to think that, if He does that, He would be consistent about it. The stories and claims of such intervention demonstrate an dire lack of consistency. And there is always a handy explanation. I'm half-way through the book "Is God To Blame", which is an attempt at an explanation. So far, it makes a bit more sense than most other attempts I've heard, but it falls short. (So far!)
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 09:49 AM
No scrutiny? Why would it have to be scrutinized? That was the point I was making.
(If by scrutiny you mean investigations into The Iliad's authorship, yes, it has undergone scrutiny. Some scholars don't believe there was a man Homer, as Iliad author at least, but that the poems attributed to him originated as oral tradition. But nobody's eternal fate rests on the truth of that matter!)
Back to my question of interpretation. So, you would have me and the rest of the human race believe that God set down The Rules, at certain times of history, using terminology particular to those times and cultures, never modernizing them, but they are applicable and binding on all humanity (even the huge portion of humanity that has never even seen The Rules), though they are becoming farther and farther removed from today's time and culture, making it harder to follow The Rules (again, witness the arguing and fighting over what they really mean and which ones still apply)?
Mmmmmkay.
Many works of antiquity, including Homer's Iliad, have philosophical bends, which seek to answer the questions about the meaning in life. I'd say those are heavy and weighty implications.
Your second question, yes. He has tasked the first disciples, even so as we are tasked, to proclaim the Good News of His death, burial and resurrection and the hope that is in the cross.
When you approach it with such deep skepticism, nothing can persuade you. Be assured. Skepticism and doubt are not free passes, at some point you have to have an answer. This man, Christ, changed the course of human history, and millions have followed, and even risked their lives. They know Him not just by history, but through personal experiences and continual relationship with the resurrected Christ (through the Holy Spirit).
Reason will never fit into the box called Revelation, though there is no question to heavy, or doubt to hard that God falls short. Revelation is much more vast than reason and goes places reason never could. Reason is bound to hypothesis and chemicals, matter and substance. Revelation approaches not the causation of chemicals, but the creator of those causes that produced the chemicals.
Timmy
07-09-2009, 09:51 AM
You guys are just as skeptical, perhaps more, about my views as I am of yours. Why is that skepticism good and mine bad? :hmmm
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 09:52 AM
Oh I agree that there are certain things that one cannot believe unless one stops thinking! :toofunny
Look, all I'm doing is figuring out what to believe, based on the information available to me. We are all doing that, I think. And yes, it is reasonable to think that God, if interested in us, may intervene in our world, at times. But it is also reasonable to think that, if He does that, He would be consistent about it. The stories and claims of such intervention demonstrate an dire lack of consistency. And there is always a handy explanation. I'm half-way through the book "Is God To Blame", which is an attempt at an explanation. So far, it makes a bit more sense than most other attempts I've heard, but it falls short. (So far!)
If you think your case is strongest enough for the courts of eternity, then so be it... remember, there will never come a time when doubt is sealed away, there is always an opportunity to rationalize this whole things and throw it away. I'm sure Noah felt the same way. But it doesn't change reality. Reason comes from God. The idea that we can reason, making sense of seeming chaos, is a function of divine.
I respect your journey and seeking of answers. I may also recommend a few books to you through PM on an apologetic level.
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 09:54 AM
You guys are just as skeptical, perhaps more, about my views as I am of yours. Why is that skepticism good and mine bad? :hmmm
Skepticism, as a generic word, meaning free inquiry about things is one thing, as a philosophy is another. We ask questions, sure that God has the answers, and no matter the outcome trusting in His providence. The skeptic asks a question, quite sure there is no answer good enough.
Timmy
07-09-2009, 09:54 AM
If you think your case is strongest enough for the courts of eternity, then so be it... remember, there will never come a time when doubt is sealed away, there is always an opportunity to rationalize this whole things and throw it away. I'm sure Noah felt the same way. But it doesn't change reality. Reason comes from God. The idea that we can reason, making sense of seeming chaos, is a function of divine.
I respect your journey and seeking of answers. I may also recommend a few books to you through PM on an apologetic level.
OK. I have probably read some of them already, and have others in the library. Waiting. ;)
Sept5SavedTeen
07-09-2009, 10:52 AM
If you think your case is strongest enough for the courts of eternity, then so be it... remember, there will never come a time when doubt is sealed away, there is always an opportunity to rationalize this whole things and throw it away. I'm sure Noah felt the same way. But it doesn't change reality. Reason comes from God. The idea that we can reason, making sense of seeming chaos, is a function of divine.
I respect your journey and seeking of answers. I may also recommend a few books to you through PM on an apologetic level.
And we begin that stereotypical fundamentalist/Pentecostal fear tactic game... and on someone that's clearly not interested.
There is probably nothing any of us can say to change Timmy's mind, and if we are trying so hard it's probable because if we did end up changing his mind, we would then "prove" the Truth to ourselves once again.
Timmy, I know the Truth, and it has made me free. You know a fair amount of the Scriptures, but you reject them. I want to live my life peaceably, and you probably want to do the same. There is no point to me trying to change you or vice versa.
Everyone here has bought into the "Christians have to be "nice"" idea... I have not, so I say this very easily- you are a lost cause.
And I say it with a smile on my face :)
-Bro. Alex
Timmy
07-09-2009, 10:54 AM
And we begin that stereotypical fundamentalist/Pentecostal fear tactic game... and on someone that's clearly not interested.
There is probably nothing any of us can say to change Timmy's mind, and if we are trying so hard it's probable because if we did end up changing his mind, we would then "prove" the Truth to ourselves once again.
Timmy, I know the Truth, and it has made me free. You know a fair amount of the Scriptures, but you reject them. I want to live my life peaceably, and you probably want to do the same. There is no point to me trying to change you or vice versa.
Everyone here has bought into the "Christians have to be "nice"" idea... I have not, so I say this very easily- you are a lost cause.
And I say it with a smile on my face :)
-Bro. Alex
You're probably right! :winkgrin
KWSS1976
07-09-2009, 10:59 AM
Sept5SavedTeen since your faith is so strong and you are so sure will you drink any deadly thing?
KWSS1976
07-09-2009, 11:00 AM
I am not backing Timmy up but I do see where he is coming from...
Sept5SavedTeen
07-09-2009, 11:01 AM
Sept5SavedTeen since your faith is so strong and you are so sure will you drink any deadly thing?
No, I do not interpret the Scripture that way, and yes, I live my life based on my interpretation of Scripture, since we all have to interpret things around us in order to live and to function in this world.
-Bro. Alex
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 11:11 AM
And we begin that stereotypical fundamentalist/Pentecostal fear tactic game... and on someone that's clearly not interested.
There is probably nothing any of us can say to change Timmy's mind, and if we are trying so hard it's probable because if we did end up changing his mind, we would then "prove" the Truth to ourselves once again.
Timmy, I know the Truth, and it has made me free. You know a fair amount of the Scriptures, but you reject them. I want to live my life peaceably, and you probably want to do the same. There is no point to me trying to change you or vice versa.
Everyone here has bought into the "Christians have to be "nice"" idea... I have not, so I say this very easily- you are a lost cause.
And I say it with a smile on my face :)
-Bro. Alex
On the one hand, Alex, you smack my hand for being a "fear tactic" and then you proceed to end yours with a doomsday message. Listen, it wasn't a fear tactic, and I resent you for suggesting that. If you had read my point, you would have understood. Reasoning why you don't believe should be solid... and more solid than reasons why you should believe.
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 11:12 AM
Sept5SavedTeen since your faith is so strong and you are so sure will you drink any deadly thing?
KWS, that sounds ridiculous, bud.
KWSS1976
07-09-2009, 11:14 AM
The scripture says it Growing pains would you like me to post it...
KWSS1976
07-09-2009, 11:16 AM
You guys will throw the tongues out on that scripture in a heart beat when one ask but when the shoe is on the other foot I see how it is
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 11:18 AM
The scripture says it Growing pains would you like me to post it...
We can launch gernades of Scripture all day. I'm not saying it's ridiculous because the scriptures say it, but because you could probably provide a response to your own question just as easy.
Interpretation. Bible was written with literalism, analogies, parables, poetries, hyperbole, all sorts of instruments we have at the expense of language.
I'll retract that if you sincerely have that question, then I'm sorry for pouncing on you for it. We can certainly help answer it for you.
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 11:18 AM
You guys will throw the tongues out on that scripture in a heart beat when one ask but when the shoe is on the other foot I see how it is
KWS, let's put that on another thread. I think you'll enjoy the responses.
Timmy
07-09-2009, 11:21 AM
:popcorn2
KWSS1976
07-09-2009, 11:27 AM
Timmy not trying to highjack your thread only making a point about picking and choosing out of the bible as people do it is amazing that the bible is the "infallible word of god"and people do not want to test the scriptures.....
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 11:30 AM
Timmy not trying to highjack your thread only making a point about picking and choosing out of the bible as people do it is amazing that the bible is the "infallible word of god"and people do not want to test the scriptures.....
KWS you are making the great assumption that this verse has not been answered/understood and articulated hundreds of times of centuries. That's not a good example of "picking and choosing" as most believe that verse -- they just don't think it means that a Christian ought to go jump off a building to see if they'll fly, or to drink a vat of poison to prove the verse. There's a greater lesson in it. Zoom out and see it.
KWSS1976
07-09-2009, 11:37 AM
I know what the scripture is saying...
Timmy
07-09-2009, 12:24 PM
Timmy not trying to highjack your thread only making a point about picking and choosing out of the bible as people do it is amazing that the bible is the "infallible word of god"and people do not want to test the scriptures.....
No problem! :thumbsup
nahkoe
07-09-2009, 01:12 PM
If you think your case is strongest enough for the courts of eternity, then so be it... remember, there will never come a time when doubt is sealed away, there is always an opportunity to rationalize this whole things and throw it away. I'm sure Noah felt the same way. But it doesn't change reality. Reason comes from God. The idea that we can reason, making sense of seeming chaos, is a function of divine.
I respect your journey and seeking of answers. I may also recommend a few books to you through PM on an apologetic level.
I'd be interested in such a list of books if you do put that list together and send it.
Sept5SavedTeen
07-09-2009, 01:28 PM
On the one hand, Alex, you smack my hand for being a "fear tactic" and then you proceed to end yours with a doomsday message. Listen, it wasn't a fear tactic, and I resent you for suggesting that. If you had read my point, you would have understood. Reasoning why you don't believe should be solid... and more solid than reasons why you should believe.
My calling Timmy a "lost cause" is not in any way my attempt to threaten him with an eternal suffering in a lake of fire/chamber of horrors (which I am not even sure I believe in...), but an acceptance of the fact that any attempt I make to convince him of my religious view will be a waste of my time.
And I'm ok with that... he is a free moral agent, to make any decisions he sees fit, and I have no problem with his decisions as long as they don't harm me.
-Bro. Alex
Timmy
07-09-2009, 01:59 PM
My calling Timmy a "lost cause" is not in any way my attempt to threaten him with an eternal suffering in a lake of fire/chamber of horrors (which I am not even sure I believe in...), but an acceptance of the fact that any attempt I make to convince him of my religious view will be a waste of my time.
And I'm ok with that... he is a free moral agent, to make any decisions he sees fit, and I have no problem with his decisions as long as they don't harm me.
-Bro. Alex
Ah! That brings up an interesting question: am I harming anyone? To the extent that I persuade someone (not you, not anyone posting here probably, but maybe some lurkers) to my way of thinking -- i.e., to make converts! -- I suppose you must believe that I am harming them! Posting my views is worse than murder, actually. If it's not actually changing anyone's mind, it's worse than attempted murder! I am bringing people into hell with me, just like (according to some) a Trinny preacher! :lol
Quick! Everyone put me on ignore!
Shawn
07-09-2009, 01:59 PM
I'm agnostic (don't know, don't believe I can know) about that, leaning toward skeptical. ;) I am also somewhat skeptical that all the recorded sayings of Jesus are accurate. There could have been additions and edits after the fact.
Do you believe Jesus healed the sick, and gave sight to the blind. Do you belive he rose from the dead?
Timmy
07-09-2009, 02:00 PM
Do you believe Jesus healed the sick, and gave sight to the blind. Do you belive he rose from the dead?
Same answer. Don't know, can't know, but it seems unlikely.
Shawn
07-09-2009, 02:13 PM
Seems unlikely. But I believe he did.
Many people witnessed his miracles. Many died for their testimonies. I'm bettin' the farm that those people wouldn't die for a lie. Not with what they saw first hand.
When people first told me about Christ when I was younger It seemed very hard to believe but I took it at face value and accepted it. A few years later I was baptized in Jesus name and filled with the HG. I've failed miserably since , but since then I don't doubt. I believe in him and I believe he is exactly who he said he was. He loves us both. he showed that on Calvary.
nahkoe
07-09-2009, 02:39 PM
Seems unlikely. But I believe he did.
Many people witnessed his miracles. Many died for their testimonies. I'm bettin' the farm that those people wouldn't die for a lie. Not with what they saw first hand.
When people first told me about Christ when I was younger It seemed very hard to believe but I took it at face value and accepted it. A few years later I was baptized in Jesus name and filled with the HG. I've failed miserably since , but since then I don't doubt. I believe in him and I believe he is exactly who he said he was. He loves us both. he showed that on Calvary.
I know it's hard to believe, but a whole lot of people have looked at the same data that has so thoroughly convinced you, and remained unconvinced. Repeating it again and again isn't going to convince them.
You're going to have to find a different approach, or just stop trying to convince them. Timmy's only one of many.
Rhoni
07-09-2009, 02:47 PM
Some, like Timmy, are doubters like Thomas of old...but I have seen bones mended, cancer healed, mental illness healed, and in my own case I am a walking miracle because of God's mercy and grace. I should be dead or crippled but am alive and whole.
Reminds me of a song from back in the day:
I didn't see Christ when hung on cruel Calvary. I did not see the crown of thorns He did receive. I didn't hear Him cry and say, "It's finished"...I wasn't there - I didn't see - yet I believe.
I believe that my savior is risen, or' death and hell he has claimed the victory. I didn't see when he healed and cleansed the leper...I wasn't there; I didn't see - yet I believe.
****Blessed are they that have not seen and yet believe****
Blessings, Rhoni
KWSS1976
07-09-2009, 02:51 PM
I am glad I am not a Dr. cause God gets all the credit really don't see the need for Doctors...LOL
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 03:36 PM
I am glad I am not a Dr. cause God gets all the credit really don't see the need for Doctors...LOL
That's why most doctors get puffed up on themselves. Ask Dr. Brand. Look him up. His story will intrigue you.
Timmy
07-09-2009, 03:46 PM
That's why most doctors get puffed up on themselves. Ask Dr. Brand. Look him up. His story will intrigue you.
I hope those who say "I give God all the glory" don't have to pay their doctor bills! :winkgrin
KWSS1976
07-09-2009, 03:49 PM
If God did it Timmy they should not have a bill I don't think when he heeled the sick in the bible he turned around and sent them a bill......LOL
GrowingPains
07-09-2009, 04:11 PM
If God did it Timmy they should not have a bill I don't think when he heeled the sick in the bible he turned around and sent them a bill......LOL
God provides for me. I still pay my rent/mortgage, pay for my groceries, and take care of my debtors. He's provided. If you don't get it, I encourage you to take a step of faith this way. Timmy too. What do you have to lose, Timmy? Try Jesus. take him away from the microscope for a moment, and embrace Him.
Timmy
07-09-2009, 04:13 PM
God provides for me. I still pay my rent/mortgage, pay for my groceries, and take care of my debtors. He's provided. If you don't get it, I encourage you to take a step of faith this way. Timmy too. What do you have to lose, Timmy? Try Jesus. take him away from the microscope for a moment, and embrace Him.
Tried for nearly 50 years.
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