View Full Version : Faith in Crisis -- New Thoughts on Acts 2
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 01:32 PM
Today I read Acts 2, looking at the story for every nuance. What happened has rattled me. I'll explain:
In the NT time, baptism was a symbol of discipleship (I already knew this). When I read what happened in Acts, followed by a sermon from Peter, the response is "What do we do now?" NOTE: most seem to think this says "what must I do to be saved" which would change some of the mechanics of Acts 2:38. Instead of a point-by-point salvation plan, Peter replied to do 2 things for the forgiveness of sins: Repent and become a disciple of Christ (through the symbol of water baptism). Turning to Christ, our sins are remitted. He then said the Holy Spirit was promised thereafter, with no mention of tongues at this point. Now, I can't reconcile that many that received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, also spoke in tongues, so I'm not ready to go there just yet. But what it did do was rattle a passage I've known for years and now look at differently, finding that it matches the sayings of Jesus a lot better.
That day 3,000 were added to the church --- what happened? They became disciples of Christ through baptism!
I don't want to start a 3-step vs. 1-step debate (I'm a life long 3-stepper who now is stepping back on the rhetoric), but I surely would like to discuss Acts 2, and what you see in it. Is it a plan for salvation, or the Apostle's response on what they should do with the guilt they felt after that sermon? Can the HG be commanded for a person to get, when Christ said He gives it freely, with promise?
These are mysteries I don't clearly understand in all my years of Bible School.
Michael The Disciple
07-06-2009, 02:51 PM
I think that is minimizing the truth of baptism. Yeshua did not say he that believeth and is baptized will be a disciple. Altho he could have. But he said he who believes and is baptized will be saved.
In my opinion you are not a Christian apart from being a disciple. They are the same thing. Peter said baptism saves in 1 Peter 3:21 So yes thats what he meant in Acts 2:38
Digging4Truth
07-06-2009, 02:55 PM
Today I read Acts 2, looking at the story for every nuance. What happened has rattled me. I'll explain:
In the NT time, baptism was a symbol of discipleship (I already knew this). When I read what happened in Acts, followed by a sermon from Peter, the response is "What do we do now?" NOTE: most seem to think this says "what must I do to be saved" which would change some of the mechanics of Acts 2:38. Instead of a point-by-point salvation plan, Peter replied to do 2 things for the forgiveness of sins: Repent and become a disciple of Christ (through the symbol of water baptism). Turning to Christ, our sins are remitted. He then said the Holy Spirit was promised thereafter, with no mention of tongues at this point. Now, I can't reconcile that many that received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, also spoke in tongues, so I'm not ready to go there just yet. But what it did do was rattle a passage I've known for years and now look at differently, finding that it matches the sayings of Jesus a lot better.
That day 3,000 were added to the church --- what happened? They became disciples of Christ through baptism!
I don't want to start a 3-step vs. 1-step debate (I'm a life long 3-stepper who now is stepping back on the rhetoric), but I surely would like to discuss Acts 2, and what you see in it. Is it a plan for salvation, or the Apostle's response on what they should do with the guilt they felt after that sermon? Can the HG be commanded for a person to get, when Christ said He gives it freely, with promise?
These are mysteries I don't clearly understand in all my years of Bible School.
I have no comment on your post as a whole at this point but I will say this.
The only hope any of us have of finding real truth is learning how to "step back from the rhetoric"
So few ever learn how to do that.
RandyWayne
07-06-2009, 02:57 PM
I have no comment on your post as a whole at this point but I will say this.
The only hope any of us have of finding real truth is learning how to "step back from the rhetoric"
So few ever learn how to do that.
It is all about playing a sort of mental game were you pretend you have never read or heard what you are about to read.... the "read it for the first time". Often what you read and learn will be vastly different then what you have always heard others say it says.
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 03:07 PM
It is all about playing a sort of mental game were you pretend you have never read or heard what you are about to read.... the "read it for the first time". Often what you read and learn will be vastly different then what you have always heard others say it says.
Randy, that's exactly what happened.
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 03:12 PM
I think that is minimizing the truth of baptism. Yeshua did not say he that believeth and is baptized will be a disciple. Altho he could have. But he said he who believes and is baptized will be saved.
In my opinion you are not a Christian apart from being a disciple. They are the same thing. Peter said baptism saves in 1 Peter 3:21 So yes thats what he meant in Acts 2:38
You can say Jesus, instead of Yeshua, since I speak English :)
I appreciate your post and response and really took thought on this.
Are we saved by becoming a disciple of Christ? Why wouldn't we? To be a disciple, we take His name on us, we follow Him, we listen to and obey His teachings, etc... Do you believe Acts 2:38 was to establish baptism as a command for salvation? It seems baptism has beautiful symbolism to the Temple, to the Ark and even another metaphor as a "new circumcision." I definitely see it as the believers response to the Gospel. My point was not that we shouldn't teach baptism, but if Acts 2 was not a response to salvation -- but rather, "what do we do now?", can we say baptism removes sin? O maybe, it's fith in Christ (by becoming a disciple) and repentance that removes sin, which is what the baptism is all about?
Thanks for challenging my thought. It's helpful.
TheLegalist
07-06-2009, 03:14 PM
Randy, that's exactly what happened.
Why do the mechanics change?
Michael The Disciple
07-06-2009, 03:21 PM
My point is that Acts 2:38 was given to people who were not saved who had just asked "what must we do". Do about what? None of them were disciples at that point. None of them were saved at that point.
Note that being a Christian and being a disciple are one thing.
26: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:26
At first they were simply "disciples of Yeshua". Later they were called Christians.
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 03:28 PM
Why do the mechanics change?
I don't understand your question.
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 03:33 PM
My point is that Acts 2:38 was given to people who were not saved who had just asked "what must we do". Do about what? None of them were disciples at that point. None of them were saved at that point.
Note that being a Christian and being a disciple are one thing.
26: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:26
At first they were simply "disciples of Yeshua". Later they were called Christians.
Well, they were called "Christians" or "Christ-Imitators" as a sort of name-calling. We saw it as enduring.
So, for you, this verse means baptism saves us? Or is it a response to the Good News. What do we do now? They obviously believed! They were ready to act on their belief through baptism. But how do we reconcile the significance of what baptism represented in the 1st Century? It had great significance about discipleship. I see "repent and be baptized" as one action, a sign of their change of heart was baptism, and that's how sin was forgiven.
That's what I appreciate about this forum. The ability to be vulnerable and open about ideas/things, and capable people who also have ideas that help ground us.
I guess the only other thing about this story would be the promise of the Holy Spirit. How can God judge and condemn a man for not having what He so generously promised? And, because tongues accompanied the baptism of the Holy Ghost in Acts, do we use that as a model for all who receive the Spirit? What say you?
Pastor Keith
07-06-2009, 03:38 PM
Today I read Acts 2, looking at the story for every nuance. What happened has rattled me. I'll explain:
In the NT time, baptism was a symbol of discipleship (I already knew this). When I read what happened in Acts, followed by a sermon from Peter, the response is "What do we do now?" NOTE: most seem to think this says "what must I do to be saved" which would change some of the mechanics of Acts 2:38. Instead of a point-by-point salvation plan, Peter replied to do 2 things for the forgiveness of sins: Repent and become a disciple of Christ (through the symbol of water baptism). Turning to Christ, our sins are remitted. He then said the Holy Spirit was promised thereafter, with no mention of tongues at this point. Now, I can't reconcile that many that received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, also spoke in tongues, so I'm not ready to go there just yet. But what it did do was rattle a passage I've known for years and now look at differently, finding that it matches the sayings of Jesus a lot better.
That day 3,000 were added to the church --- what happened? They became disciples of Christ through baptism!
I don't want to start a 3-step vs. 1-step debate (I'm a life long 3-stepper who now is stepping back on the rhetoric), but I surely would like to discuss Acts 2, and what you see in it. Is it a plan for salvation, or the Apostle's response on what they should do with the guilt they felt after that sermon? Can the HG be commanded for a person to get, when Christ said He gives it freely, with promise?
These are mysteries I don't clearly understand in all my years of Bible School.
The problem with the Baptism as a symbol is leftover Greek Philosophy that somehow got mingled into the church doctrines by those Scholars that came from that mindset.
Baptism is a physical act with great spiritual significance. Without faith it is only getting wet, but combined with faith in the operation of God, it brings tremendous deliverance, identification with Jesus (Romans 6) a burial of the old man, and washing away of sins in the legal sense.
I can't figure out why so many raised with this powerful doctrinal truth now down play it's significance.
Please buy David Pawson's The Normal Christian Birth, you will never view Baptism the same again, for that matter the Application of the New Birth.
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 03:50 PM
The problem with the Baptism as a symbol is leftover Greek Philosophy that somehow got mingled into the church doctrines by those Scholars that came from that mindset.
Baptism is a physical act with great spiritual significance. Without faith it is only getting wet, but combined with faith in the operation of God, it brings tremendous deliverance, identification with Jesus (Romans 6) a burial of the old man, and washing away of sins in the legal sense.
I can't figure out why so many raised with this powerful doctrinal truth now down play it's significance.
Please buy David Pawson's The Normal Christian Birth, you will never view Baptism the same again, for that matter the Application of the New Birth.
Thanks, Keith.
And I'm not intending on downplaying anything. I'm just honestly searching and contemplating the scriptures. I will definitely do some reading on those who have studied baptism in the 1st Century, and do a re-post of my findings/conclusions.
Keith there is no doubt it's not a matter of spiritual significance and a requirement of Scripture, my question was in terms of initial salvation, which I'm learning more and more is a process and not some instantaneous event. We are all growing in faith, though conceived in the Spirit at repentance.
Keith, what do you believe Acts 2 intends with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that was promised with repentance and baptism? There were no instructions to seek it, it was promised to be given, it seems conditional to repentance and baptism.
*AQuietPlace*
07-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Is it biblically supported that if you don't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost you are not saved and will go to hell? You can repent and be baptized, but if you don't speak in tongues, you're still a goner?
That's what I've always been led to believe, but the more I study the more I'm not so sure.
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 03:57 PM
Is it biblically supported that if you don't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost you are not saved and will go to hell? You can repent and be baptized, but if you don't speak in tongues, you're still a goner?
That's what I've always been led to believe, but the more I study the more I'm not so sure.
This is where I am.
The question, simply stated is:
Can one be born again without speaking in tongues?
or...
Is another Biblical proof of someone receiving the Holy Ghost without the initial evidence of tongues (hard one to prove, since the absence of a fact, does not mean it's neither included)? And After Christ, since we know of the cases in the OT, and of even John the Baptist.
or...
John 3:5, which seems to be referring to the Spirit with its metaphors of "water and spirit" -- can this be fulfilled without tongues?
Doctrine with tongues as initial evidence is made by observation of the NT Church without it ever being stated as a doctrine. In other words, our most core doctrine is based on implicit observation.
Michael The Disciple
07-06-2009, 04:00 PM
So, for you, this verse means baptism saves us? Or is it a response to the Good News. What do we do now? They obviously believed! They were ready to act on their belief through baptism. But how do we reconcile the significance of what baptism represented in the 1st Century?
Acting on their belief would have been repenting, being baptized and receiving the Spirit. In doing so they would be born of water and spirit which would enable them to enter the kingdom of God.
The significance of baptism to the Church of the first century was indeed great. Just let whats written about it in the New Testament speak for itself.
It is identified with terms like remission of sins. Washing away of sins. Burying the old man. Destroying the old man. A circumcision (cutting away) of the old man and washing of regeneration.
I have no problem believing they repented were baptized and filled with the Spirit to become disciples. Thats in fact what I believe. Disciples and Christians are the same thing. Acts 11:26
guess the only other thing about this story would be the promise of the Holy Spirit. How can God judge and condemn a man for not having what He so generously promised? And, because tongues accompanied the baptism of the Holy Ghost in Acts, do we use that as a model for all who receive the Spirit? What say you?
A model? It would be the only thing we can actually find except prophesying as in Acts 19. It seems reasonable that tongues normally followed the baptism of the Spirit. If one seeks a Biblical experience I think they would want to speak in tongues.
*AQuietPlace*
07-06-2009, 04:01 PM
Even if tongues is indeed the initial sign of the Holy Ghost, always.... is the Holy Ghost a gift, a comforter, power? Or is it your ticket to Heaven?
Michael The Disciple
07-06-2009, 04:17 PM
Even if tongues is indeed the initial sign of the Holy Ghost, always.... is the Holy Ghost a gift, a comforter, power? Or is it your ticket to Heaven?
It is all of the above. If its really in a life there will be faith and a deep abiding in Christ. The Christian life is not possible without the Holy Ghost.
Praxeas
07-06-2009, 04:18 PM
Today I read Acts 2, looking at the story for every nuance. What happened has rattled me. I'll explain:
In the NT time, baptism was a symbol of discipleship (I already knew this). When I read what happened in Acts, followed by a sermon from Peter, the response is "What do we do now?" NOTE: most seem to think this says "what must I do to be saved" which would change some of the mechanics of Acts 2:38. Instead of a point-by-point salvation plan, Peter replied to do 2 things for the forgiveness of sins: Repent and become a disciple of Christ (through the symbol of water baptism). Turning to Christ, our sins are remitted. He then said the Holy Spirit was promised thereafter, with no mention of tongues at this point. Now, I can't reconcile that many that received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, also spoke in tongues, so I'm not ready to go there just yet. But what it did do was rattle a passage I've known for years and now look at differently, finding that it matches the sayings of Jesus a lot better.
That day 3,000 were added to the church --- what happened? They became disciples of Christ through baptism!
I don't want to start a 3-step vs. 1-step debate (I'm a life long 3-stepper who now is stepping back on the rhetoric), but I surely would like to discuss Acts 2, and what you see in it. Is it a plan for salvation, or the Apostle's response on what they should do with the guilt they felt after that sermon? Can the HG be commanded for a person to get, when Christ said He gives it freely, with promise?
These are mysteries I don't clearly understand in all my years of Bible School.
that they did not say "to be saved" is irrelevant. They were guilty.Christ..ie salvation.. removes the guilt of sins.
If they were already saved then they already had the gift of the Holy Ghost
Peter did not say "and you need to get the Holy Ghost"
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 04:28 PM
that they did not say "to be saved" is irrelevant. They were guilty.Christ..ie salvation.. removes the guilt of sins.
If they were already saved then they already had the gift of the Holy Ghost
Peter did not say "and you need to get the Holy Ghost"
Interesting Prax. So you believe after they've repented and have been baptized they are gifted with the Spirit?
I get your point about the "what must we do (to be saved)?" Though the text doesn't state the implied parentheses, it's clear they had guilt and asked for action for the guilt, which makes sense to be salvation.
Question: the disciples of John that the Apostle met, where he asked "have you received the power since you believed" -- does this support the Holy Ghost as an empowerment to witness or that the disciples of John were not saved?
Michael The Disciple
07-06-2009, 04:58 PM
Question: the disciples of John that the Apostle met, where he asked "have you received the power since you believed" -- does this support the Holy Ghost as an empowerment to witness or that the disciples of John were not saved?
There is no such quote tho.
Praxeas
07-06-2009, 05:00 PM
Interesting Prax. So you believe after they've repented and have been baptized they are gifted with the Spirit? I Believe that the gift is only given or available to those that have faith and have their sins forgiven.
Question: the disciples of John that the Apostle met, where he asked "have you received the power since you believed" -- does this support the Holy Ghost as an empowerment to witness or that the disciples of John were not saved?Have you received the Spirit since you believed?
Based on this verse alone I am not sure the first can be proven...ie the second work of grace theory
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 05:14 PM
There is no such quote tho.
Holy Ghost, not power. Sorry.
In another place in Acts "ye shall receive POWER after that which the HG is come upon you."
Prax responded to this. So far it sounds like the HG was a gift to the believers, to empower them to be witnesses in a very hostile time. The HG was never presented as a commandment or requisite for salvation... or was it?
Jermyn Davidson
07-06-2009, 05:15 PM
Can the HG be commanded for a person to get, when Christ said He gives it freely, with promise?
These are mysteries I don't clearly understand in all my years of Bible School.
This question is the EXACT reason why I may attend an Apostolic church, but not agree hook line and sinker with it doctrinally.
Repentance is a command.
Baptism is a command.
Both play a role in salvation-- typing it made me pause, but I don't know how else to interpret the clear teaching of the scriptures when it comes to water baptism.
But the baptism in the Holy Ghost is not a command, it is a Promise.
A Divine Promise, an awesome privilege for all Blood-Bought Believers that should be sought and coveted if for no other reason than God has made it available, this precious Gift of the Holy Ghost.
U376977
07-06-2009, 05:16 PM
Today I read Acts 2, looking at the story for every nuance. What happened has rattled me. I'll explain:
In the NT time, baptism was a symbol of discipleship (I already knew this). When I read what happened in Acts, followed by a sermon from Peter, the response is "What do we do now?" NOTE: most seem to think this says "what must I do to be saved" which would change some of the mechanics of Acts 2:38. Instead of a point-by-point salvation plan, Peter replied to do 2 things for the forgiveness of sins: Repent and become a disciple of Christ (through the symbol of water baptism). Turning to Christ, our sins are remitted. He then said the Holy Spirit was promised thereafter, with no mention of tongues at this point. Now, I can't reconcile that many that received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, also spoke in tongues, so I'm not ready to go there just yet. But what it did do was rattle a passage I've known for years and now look at differently, finding that it matches the sayings of Jesus a lot better.
That day 3,000 were added to the church --- what happened? They became disciples of Christ through baptism!
I don't want to start a 3-step vs. 1-step debate (I'm a life long 3-stepper who now is stepping back on the rhetoric), but I surely would like to discuss Acts 2, and what you see in it. Is it a plan for salvation, or the Apostle's response on what they should do with the guilt they felt after that sermon? Can the HG be commanded for a person to get, when Christ said He gives it freely, with promise?
These are mysteries I don't clearly understand in all my years of Bible School.
Sounds as if Christ is trying to birth something within you. I would caution to be quiet before him and let it happen. I think many times we filter his voice thru our traditions and others who do not have a clue what he is trying to say to you to bring you into a closer discipleship. I would say...go back to that place where God was speaking to you from Ac 2 and listen. The voice of God can be heard thru people on this forum, and thru your old books, but if he is talking to you thru reading your Word....and helping you see thru a deeper light of revelation; then stay in that place.
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 05:21 PM
Sounds as if Christ is trying to birth something within you. I would caution to be quiet before him and let it happen. I think many times we filter his voice thru our traditions and others who do not have a clue what he is trying to say to you to bring you into a closer discipleship. I would say...go back to that place where God was speaking to you from Ac 2 and listen. The voice of God can be heard thru people on this forum, and thru your old books, but if he is talking to you thru reading your Word....and helping you see thru a deeper light of revelation; then stay in that place.
Thanks, U376977. Sometimes private thoughts are hysterics that help to be balanced by others. You're right though, the last several months has been a "talking session" with God. The result is, on here I'm slopping stuff out, and not worrying about dotting every "i" of some grand thesis, but rather testing, prodding, poking, prodding, and turning every idea upside down only to be resurrected with the agreement of Scripture.
Michael The Disciple
07-06-2009, 06:41 PM
This question is the EXACT reason why I may attend an Apostolic church, but not agree hook line and sinker with it doctrinally.
Repentance is a command.
Baptism is a command.
Both play a role in salvation-- typing it made me pause, but I don't know how else to interpret the clear teaching of the scriptures when it comes to water baptism.
But the baptism in the Holy Ghost is not a command, it is a Promise.
A Divine Promise, an awesome privilege for all Blood-Bought Believers that should be sought and coveted if for no other reason than God has made it available, this precious Gift of the Holy Ghost.
You are forgetting one part of the Holy Ghost equasion.
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
It is promised to all that the Lord CALLS. If one is called of God to be saved they will receive the Holy Ghost.
Praxeas
07-06-2009, 07:10 PM
Plus Jesus said the Father would give the Holy Ghost to those that asked
GrowingPains
07-06-2009, 10:40 PM
Talk about balanced shopping. Just bought Velvet Elvis along with the book Baptism In the First 5 Centuries by Everett Ferguson and Into The Name by Lars Hartman. July is dialed in.
Falla39
07-07-2009, 07:32 AM
Today I read Acts 2, looking at the story for every nuance. What happened has rattled me. I'll explain:
In the NT time, baptism was a symbol of discipleship (I already knew this). When I read what happened in Acts, followed by a sermon from Peter, the response is "What do we do now?" NOTE: most seem to think this says "what must I do to be saved" which would change some of the mechanics of Acts 2:38. Instead of a point-by-point salvation plan, Peter replied to do 2 things for the forgiveness of sins: Repent and become a disciple of Christ (through the symbol of water baptism). Turning to Christ, our sins are remitted. He then said the Holy Spirit was promised thereafter, with no mention of tongues at this point. Now, I can't reconcile that many that received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, also spoke in tongues, so I'm not ready to go there just yet. But what it did do was rattle a passage I've known for years and now look at differently, finding that it matches the sayings of Jesus a lot better.
hat day 3,000 were added to the church --- what happened? They became disciples of Christ through baptism!
T
I don't want to start a 3-step vs. 1-step debate (I'm a life long 3-stepper who now is stepping back on the rhetoric), but I surely would like to discuss Acts 2, and what you see in it. Is it a plan for salvation, or the Apostle's response on what they should do with the guilt they felt after that sermon? Can the HG be commanded for a person to get, when Christ said He gives it freely, with promise?
These are mysteries I don't clearly understand in all my years of Bible School.
That day 3,000 were added to the church --- what happened? They became disciples of Christ through baptism! .
Back up a little further in Act 2. The first of the chapter.
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
There's our part, the preacher's part and there is the part that only GOD
can do. And IN THE BEGINNING, GOD!!!! This would be a new beginning,
a new creation. Old things passing away. Behold ALL things would becoming
new. A New Will and Testament! God making a NEW Covenant with His People.
Jesus, in the 24th chapter of Luke, starting at the 44th verse and
read through the 49th verse. Then Jesus led them out as far as to Bethany.
That's as far as Jesus could take them as the SON. He ascended to SEND
back the Spirit (or promise of His Father) from on high. He had already told
his disciples IF he went not away, the Holy Ghost could not come. All the
fulness/Power was IN Jesus, but the Power/Spirit ascended on high to began
to pour down/out righteousness on all flesh, beginning at Jerusalem.
Jesus was given all the Power/Spirit in fulness while He walked on earth.
But submitted it all back to the Father when he had finished the work the
Father/Spirit had sent him to do, that God might be all in all.
satan didn't want to give God glory. He felt/desired he could be as the
Most High.
So he was kicked out of his position. GOD WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO
another.
Falla39
deltaguitar
07-07-2009, 08:14 AM
The Holy Spirit is essential for salvation. Now, are tongues the evidence of the Holy Ghost? A lot of Apostolic doctrine hinges on tongues being the initial evidence. AOG and other Pentecostals consider a person to receive the Holy Ghost at new birth but that there is a second work called the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.
If speaking in tongues were the initial evidence of the Holy Ghost then why was this not mentioned anywhere in scripture. All we have are a few incidences where people spoke in tongues when they received and then speaking in tongues is not really mentioned any more.
deltaguitar
07-07-2009, 08:18 AM
Talk about balanced shopping. Just bought Velvet Elvis along with the book Baptism In the First 5 Centuries by Everett Ferguson and Into The Name by Lars Hartman. July is dialed in.
Velvet Elvis is interesting. Bell makes some good points but seems to be dealing with the symptoms of dead churches and attributing those to the church as a whole.
TheLegalist
07-07-2009, 08:36 AM
I don't understand your question.
You said,
NOTE: most seem to think this says "what must I do to be saved" which would change some of the mechanics of Acts 2:38.
Falla39
07-07-2009, 08:38 AM
Isaiah 28:9-12
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. Mark 16:16,17.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
John 3:18,
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Acts 10:44-46,
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
TheLegalist
07-07-2009, 08:42 AM
Talk about balanced shopping. Just bought Velvet Elvis along with the book Baptism In the First 5 Centuries by Everett Ferguson and Into The Name by Lars Hartman. July is dialed in.
Excellent book a must have! Read the conlcusion on Jesus name baptism LOL! Talking about a witness of truth! I also recommend... Baptism in the NT by G.R. Beasley-Murray. He was paid by the Baptist assembly to do the book. Least to say it went against everything they believed but what can you say. The truth is the truth and it can set you free if you allow it.
KWSS1976
07-07-2009, 08:57 AM
Sis falla per your quote Back up a little further in Act 2. The first of the chapter.
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
what happened when they spoke in tongues
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born
When I hear one speak in tongues I do not hear the tongue wherein I was born....
GrowingPains
07-07-2009, 11:18 AM
You said,
NOTE: most seem to think this says "what must I do to be saved" which would change some of the mechanics of Acts 2:38.
If Acts 2:38 were specifically addressing the most critical question, given to the Apostle with the keys, then this would be the biblical standard text for salvation. If, however, it's one of many passages on salvation, one could approach this text as more than just a step-by-step, play-by-play instruction for salvation, and more as a response in general: for example, if a drug addict asked me to what he needs to do to change, I may say: "give your life to God, sell out to Him, become a follower, allow the Word of God to grow like a seed in your life." It's all truth. Just not necessarily a step-by-step, comprehensive plan. So what the question answers is imperative.
Others have made a great point that the question was implied "what must I do about this guilt", which I think gives a merited point about this being applicable to even salvation. The discussion continues...
GrowingPains
07-07-2009, 11:21 AM
Sis falla per your quote
what happened when they spoke in tongues
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born
When I hear one speak in tongues I do not hear the tongue wherein I was born....
Timmy,
This is a good question that has been asked over and over again by many. Was not the original outpouring of the HG of such great significance that it fulfilled prophecy about other languages?
GrowingPains
07-07-2009, 11:49 AM
Notice even with the baptism of John the Baptist, that they first confessed their sins and then were baptized as a disciple of John (which is why later they say they were of the "Baptism of John" when the Apostle asked them). It seems John's baptism was repentance, with a symbol of that repentance in water.
John's baptism was of repentance, Christ's baptism would be of the Holy Ghost
Acts 2 "Those were accepted the message were baptized..." these were numbered among the 3,000 souls. Do we count these as souls today?
Yet, Acts 8 shows us that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is not automatic after water baptism (8:16)
Acts 10 shows the Holy Ghost separate of water baptism, and not automatic, for they received the Holy Ghost "just as we" and then were asked to be baptized.
Crispus was baptized
Paul was baptized
Lydia was baptized
The Philippian Jailer was baptized (and his family)
Household of Stephanas was baptized (later mentioned in 1 Cor 16)
... and as the brother already mentioned, 1 Pet 3:21 shows that baptism now also saves us, as the ark delivered Noah and his family.
Baptism is clear, and it was not my point to refute baptism in Acts 2:38. My point was how differently the text read to me, and that the point was not just baptism, the point was not just water, it was discipleship.
As it is, I am reading on this very subject and wish to report back any findings that I think you'd be interested in.
Timmy
07-07-2009, 12:14 PM
Timmy,
This is a good question that has been asked over and over again by many. Was not the original outpouring of the HG of such great significance that it fulfilled prophecy about other languages?
:blink
GrowingPains
07-07-2009, 02:29 PM
Excellent book a must have! Read the conlcusion on Jesus name baptism LOL! Talking about a witness of truth! I also recommend... Baptism in the NT by G.R. Beasley-Murray. He was paid by the Baptist assembly to do the book. Least to say it went against everything they believed but what can you say. The truth is the truth and it can set you free if you allow it.
Hey thanks. I'll check it out.
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