Replacing Jesus

[Nahum]

"...MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which we have learned: and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve NOT our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and BY GOOD WORDS AND FAIR SPEECHES DECEIVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE!" Romans 16:17,18

JESUS SAID TO HIM, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." John 14:6

Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church?

Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world?

Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts?


Have we replaced Jesus? Do we even need Him any longer?

[Praxeas]

"...MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which we have learned: and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve NOT our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and BY GOOD WORDS AND FAIR SPEECHES DECEIVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE!" Romans 16:17,18

JESUS SAID TO HIM, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." John 14:6

Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church?

Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world?

Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts?


Have we replaced Jesus? Do we even need Him any longer?
I think it's asinine and dishonest, not that this is your intention, to suggest that just because people believe what the bible says about obeying the word, living a holy life and following a set of rules means one has replaced Jesus with them. However it's quite possible for ANYONE to look towards something other than Jesus, including themselves, in order to be saved

[PaPaDon]

"...MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which we have learned: and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve NOT our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and BY GOOD WORDS AND FAIR SPEECHES DECEIVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE!" Romans 16:17,18

JESUS SAID TO HIM, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." John 14:6

Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church?

Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world?

Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts?


Have we replaced Jesus? Do we even need Him any longer?


A study of the events which took place during the AZUSA Street Revival during the early days of the 20th Century, discloses that there were MANY "messages in tongues" and their "interpretations." One which caught my attention concerned a prophetic utterance which foretold of the forsaking of "righteousness" as the end of the present age came to a close. Are we witnessing the fulfillment of this prophetic utterance in our day? I, for one, am inclined to think so!

[Nahum]

I think it's asinine and dishonest, not that this is your intention, to suggest that just because people believe what the bible says about obeying the word, living a holy life and following a set of rules means one has replaced Jesus with them. However it's quite possible for ANYONE to look towards something other than Jesus, including themselves, in order to be saved

If rules can save, what need is there of Jesus?

[Pressing-On]

"...MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which we have learned: and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve NOT our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and BY GOOD WORDS AND FAIR SPEECHES DECEIVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE!" Romans 16:17,18

JESUS SAID TO HIM, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." John 14:6

Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church?

Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world?

Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts?


Have we replaced Jesus? Do we even need Him any longer?
PP,
I think that while people adhere to standards some may, do and have treated it like the brazen serpent.

For a women, and this is just me - it is rather tiring to walk into meetings and be sized up as to whether you fit the criteria for holiness standards.

And honestly, there are times when I thought, "I wonder who I am and where I went. I wish I could feel normal." I'm not sure I will be understood on that statement.

[Nahum]

PP,
I think that while people adhere to standards some may, do and have treated it like the brazen serpent.

For a women, and this is just me - it is rather tiring to walk into meetings and be sized up as to whether you fit the criteria for holiness standards.

And honestly, there are times when I thought, "I wonder who I am and where I went. I wish I could feel normal." I'm not sure I will be understood on that statement.

My point exactly. We are as those mentioned in Romans 1 who worship things created more than the Creator. It is perversion.

I believe in the essentiality of a holy lifestyle, but I do not worship or take pride in that holiness.

[Pressing-On]

My point exactly. We are as those mentioned in Romans 1 who worship things created more than the Creator. It is perversion.

I believe in the essentiality of a holy lifestyle, but I do not worship or take pride in that holiness.

Well, I'm crying now, PP. It's just that sometimes I feel like I walked in the door and was undressed and I'm someone else.

[Nahum]

Well, I'm crying now, PP. It's just that sometimes I feel like I walked in the door and was undressed and I'm someone else.

explain

[Pressing-On]

explain

I'll have to do it later. I can't see the keyboard. lol!

[philjones]

PP,

To maintain a little balance in this thread. I have personally witnessed those from the more liberal persuasion worshiping around their idol as well. Mind you not all of the do this just like not all standard keepers do what you accuse them of.

I appreciate your position and the fact that you feel compelled to sound the alarm, but beware lest you are marked as the boy who cried wolf and lose all your credibility. I am just as passionate about the dangers of liberalism as you appear to be about the dangers of conservatism but I have realized I am not going to accomplish a whole lot by railing on the liberals I love day in and day out.

Bless you!

[Felicity]

PP,

To maintain a little balance in this thread. I have personally witnessed those from the more liberal persuasion worshiping around their idol as well. Mind you not all of the do this just like not all standard keepers do what you accuse them of.

I appreciate your position and the fact that you feel compelled to sound the alarm, but beware lest you are marked as the boy who cried wolf and lose all your credibility. I am just as passionate about the dangers of liberalism as you appear to be about the dangers of conservatism but I have realized I am not going to accomplish a whole lot by railing on the liberals I love day in and day out.

Bless you!It's the same thing over and over and over again. Wish there was a way to move past it but the probably never will be.

I have the distinct advantage of having been on both sides ... but the position on either side being fairly close to the middle, moderate, balanced position rather than extreme left or right .... wherever you place middle. That changes I guess depending how far right or left a person is.

I find people are basically the same on both sides with the same problems, faults and failings.

[SDG]

I tell what's intellectually dishonest and inane... to say that religion cannot replace God in the hearts of some... this was one of the biggest fights that Jesus had w/ the Pharisees ... they never argued about the Torah ... but the attitude of godlessness expressed by the religious zealots of the day who had replaced God w/ their sanctimonious approach ...

Godlessness can be found on a bar stool, judge's chair , and church pew ...

[OGIA]

...I have realized I am not going to accomplish a whole lot by railing on the liberals I love day in and day out.Well said! :grampa


It's the same thing over and over and over again. Wish there was a way to move past it but the probably never will be.Probably not. Any common ground has become filled with the puss of the festering wound that is constantly picked at everyday with dirty fingers.

Sorry for the graphics, but I'm medical. :winkgrin

[Nahum]

PP,

To maintain a little balance in this thread. I have personally witnessed those from the more liberal persuasion worshiping around their idol as well. Mind you not all of the do this just like not all standard keepers do what you accuse them of.

I appreciate your position and the fact that you feel compelled to sound the alarm, but beware lest you are marked as the boy who cried wolf and lose all your credibility. I am just as passionate about the dangers of liberalism as you appear to be about the dangers of conservatism but I have realized I am not going to accomplish a whole lot by railing on the liberals I love day in and day out.

Bless you!


Oh I don't know. I'll go for several weeks and leave the subject alone, and then it presents itself to me again. Its remarkable how we hide some of our extreme fringe's cultic behaviors and act as if they are normal.

The boy who cried wolf? He was a liar. There is a body of evidence available to prove the contrary on this issue

When have I ever said that all "standard keepers" are dangerous?

[Nahum]

Well said! :grampa


Probably not. Any common ground has become filled with the puss of the festering wound that is constantly picked at everyday with dirty fingers.

Sorry for the graphics, but I'm medical. :winkgrin


Have you truly tried to find common ground? Are you saying you are a moderate?

[Nahum]

I tell what's intellectually dishonest and inane... to say that religion cannot replace God in the hearts of some... this was one of the biggest fights that Jesus had w/ the Pharisees ... they never argued about the Torah ... but the attitude of godlessness expressed by the religious zealots of the day who had replaced God w/ their sanctimonious approach ...

Godlessness can be found on a bar stool, judge's chair , and church pew ...


Daniel, thank you.

But can we really call the current fringe culture "religion"?

I think not.

[philjones]

I tell what's intellectually dishonest and inane... to say that religion cannot replace God in the hearts of some... this was one of the biggest fights that Jesus had w/ the Pharisees ... they never argued about the Torah ... but the attitude of godlessness expressed by the religious zealots of the day who had replaced God w/ their sanctimonious approach ...

Godlessness can be found on a bar stool, judge's chair , and church pew ...

Dan,

Good statements. I don't think you will find anyone here who disagrees with your assertion that religion can replace God. Certainly it can! But holding a liberal view of personal lifestyle or an easy believism stand on salvation does not insulate one from becoming religious! There are religious atheists!

Good Grief!:nah

[Felicity]

Well said! :grampa


Probably not. Any common ground has become filled with the puss of the festering wound that is constantly picked at everyday with dirty fingers.

Sorry for the graphics, but I'm medical. :winkgrinIs it not possible then to discuss the different issues that arise without a defensive or adversarial position? Can we not at least try to be objective? It doesn't mean we have to agree, and it doesn't mean that we have to belittle or demean or tear at others' convictions and doctrinal beliefs either.

I love to listen to the different views and opinions about a multiplicity of topics and issues. I don't agree with everything everyone says and don't have to agree far as that goes, but it's interesting to at least think about what the other person is saying and then examine that in light of scripture.

My understanding has been enlarged and I've gained perspective from a lot of the discussion that goes on but some of this gets a little tiring after a while, at least within the context of how it's presented, but then you know bro :) that I've been engaged in discussion about some of this for several years now, so I guess it's not surprising I find it a little tiring by times.

Other people are coming to the discussion table as newbies and they're all gung ho. ;) :)

[Nahum]

It's the same thing over and over and over again. Wish there was a way to move past it but the probably never will be.

I have the distinct advantage of having been on both sides ... but the position on either side being fairly close to the middle, moderate, balanced position rather than extreme left or right .... wherever you place middle. That changes I guess depending how far right or left a person is.

I find people are basically the same on both sides with the same problems, faults and failings.

I am not far left. Far from it.

But I am intellectually honest enough to say that its time for a massive change in our emphasis.

[philjones]

Oh I don't know. I'll go for several weeks and leave the subject alone, and then it presents itself to me again. Its remarkable how we hide some of our extreme fringe's cultic behaviors and act as if they are normal.

The boy who cried wolf? He was a liar. There is a body of evidence available to prove the contrary on this issue

When have I ever said that all "standard keepers" are dangerous?

PP,

You may have never said it verbatim but it is the feeling I get from many of your posts! You appear militant in your opposition to conservatives. I am sure you don't see your actions in this light, but that is the way the come across to me!

Please understand that I am not attacking you or trying to deny you the right to your opinions. I am simply encouraging you to be less like a particular poster whom you vilify for his statements that are harsh and often offensive!:tiphat

I will leave you to your crusade and pray that all comes out well!

[SDG]

Phils praying for you PP

[OGIA]

Have you truly tried to find common ground? I can't say for certain that I have tried. That's my fault. I guess I focus too much on trying to get people to see how destructive things can be around here. I had to admit my addication and that I needed help before my recovery really began. People weren't looking for "common ground" with me. They were trying to get me to see how destructive my lifestyle was.

Maybe I've just gotten used to peace and harmony brought about by serious unity. This place is chaotic, and you can say it's "who we are and what we do" all you want, but I worry that it's not even God-blessed. As far as I can tell, the blessing is in unity. That is lacking greatly here.


Are you saying you are a moderate? I guess it depends on who you ask. What's it matter anyway? When are labels in the Apostolic movement going to make us as sick as racial labels should make us? I prefer to just answer what I believe (subsequent to being born again, which I assume almost all of us agree on) regarding holiness issues. If you choose to label me, go ahead. I guess it's what "you do".

[philjones]

I am not far left. Far from it.

But I am intellectually honest enough to say that its time for a massive change in our emphasis.

Now this is a statement I can agree with. I agree that we have majored on minors in some areas and neglected the real majors as a result. I also think that we have emphasized a beginning so heavily that it is understood to be an end!

Contrary to what you see, I see this changing pretty much across the board in the area where I live!

[Nahum]

PP,

You may have never said it verbatim but it is the feeling I get from many of your posts! You appear militant in your opposition to conservatives. I am sure you don't see your actions in this light, but that is the way the come across to me!

Please understand that I am not attacking you or trying to deny you the right to your opinions. I am simply encouraging you to be less like a particular poster whom you vilify for his statements that are harsh and often offensive!:tiphat

I will leave you to your crusade and pray that all comes out well!

Militant? That's a little harsh Bro.

I do not oppose conservatism or conservatives. I oppose manipulation and control for selfish purposes. It seems your opinion is set. Have a great evening.

[philjones]

Phils praying for you PP

And you as well! I pray for all my friends and my enemies if I have any!

I am interpreting your remark as sincere no matter how you intended it because I know in my heart that you are a better man than one who would denigrate someone's sincere prayer for another!:tiphat

[SDG]

If you choose to label me, go ahead. I guess it's what "you do".

ROFL ... http://i.euniverse.com/funpages/cms_content/5785/14.gif

[Old Paths]

Is it not possible then to discuss the different issues that arise without a defensive or adversarial position? Can we not at least try to be objective? It doesn't mean we have to agree, and it doesn't mean that we have to belittle or demean or tear at others' convictions and doctrinal beliefs either.

I love to listen to the different views and opinions about a multiplicity of topics and issues. I don't agree with everything everyone says and don't have to agree far as that goes, but it's interesting to at least think about what the other person is saying and then examine that in light of scripture.

My understanding has been enlarged and I've gained perspective from a lot of the discussion that goes on but some of this gets a little tiring after a while, at least within the context of how it's presented, but then you know bro .... :) ..... that I've been engaged in discussion about some of this for several years now, so I guess it's not surprising I find it a little tiring by times.

Other people are coming to the discussion table as newbies and they're all gung ho. ;) :)

"Is it not possible then to discuss the different issues that arise without a defensive or adversarial position?"



Because you are such a lady and I'm a great guy,we have done just this very thing in the past.

:D

[Nahum]

I can't say for certain that I have tried. That's my fault. I guess I focus too much on trying to get people to see how destructive things can be around here. I had to admit my addication and that I needed help before my recovery really began. People weren't looking for "common ground" with me. They were trying to get me to see how destructive my lifestyle was.

Maybe I've just gotten used to peace and harmony brought about by serious unity. This place is chaotic, and you can say it's "who we are and what we do" all you want, but I worry that it's not even God-blessed. As far as I can tell, the blessing is in unity. That is lacking greatly here.


I guess it depends on who you ask. What's it matter anyway? When are labels in the Apostolic movement going to make us as sick as racial labels should make us? I prefer to just answer what I believe (subsequent to being born again, which I assume almost all of us agree on) regarding holiness issues. If you choose to label me, go ahead. I guess it's what "you do".

Why are you here? Seriously!

If it disturbs you so greatly, why not just leave?

I'm saying we disagree often here. There is no way we will ever all agree. I recognize this fact. That is the difference between you and I. You are unhappy unless conformity to your values is present.

[SDG]

And you as well! I pray for all my friends and my enemies if I have any!

I am interpreting your remark as sincere no matter how you intended it because I know in my heart that you are a better man than one who would denigrate someone's sincere prayer for another!:tiphat

Are you praying for him ... or that his crusade comes out well???

[Nahum]

Crusade is a very vitriolic word. It implies I am out to kill in the name of God.

[OGIA]

ROFL ... Man, you are a joke. Not a jokester, a joke. :thumbsdown

You prove my concerns about unity.

[SDG]

Man, you are a joke. Not a jokester, a joke. :thumbsdown

OGIA .. is labeling what you do???

[CupCake]

JESUS SAID TO HIM, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." John 14:6 Amen~ The only way.

Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church? Yes


Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world? Yes

Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts? Yes and no, I witness both ways.


Have we replaced Jesus? Do we even need Him any longer?

The outward teaching has become a god to many, over grace as Christ taught.

[RevDWW]

I tell what's intellectually dishonest and inane... to say that religion cannot replace God in the hearts of some... this was one of the biggest fights that Jesus had w/ the Pharisees ... they never argued about the Torah ... but the attitude of godlessness expressed by the religious zealots of the day who had replaced God w/ their sanctimonious approach ...

Godlessness can be found on a bar stool, judge's chair , and church pew ...

Dan,

Good statements. I don't think you will find anyone here who disagrees with your assertion that religion can replace God. Certainly it can! But holding a liberal view of personal lifestyle or an easy believism stand on salvation does not insulate one from becoming religious! There are religious atheists!

Good Grief!:nah

We are in danger when:
When the methods become more important than the motives.
When the rules becomes more important then the relationship.
When perception becomes more important then principal.
When being judgemental becomes more important then being judicious.
When being mean out weights being merciful.
When being grouchy out ways being graceful.

[Coonskinner]

PP, you've got CupCake in your Amen corner now.

Congratulations.:)

[philjones]

Are you praying for him ... or that his crusade comes out well???

Both! He is focused on a very legitimate issue. I just find that his tactics are sometimes as offensive as those he is opposed to.

I am not your cookie cutter Apostolic. I count all who have EVER been born again of the water and the spirit as my brother or sister and that is a fact that will never change.

I do feel that much of the angst displayed is in reaction to somewhat of a straw man. I do not limit my fellowship to only those with whom I agree and I do NOT see much if any of what PP sees in my area and in my association with the full spectrum of Apostolics.

[Nahum]

OGIA .. is labeling what you do???

Impossible!

[philjones]

Crusade is a very vitriolic word. It implies I am out to kill in the name of God.

Now you are being ridiculous. Is that what we are doing when we have revival "crusades" in cities across the country?

Give me a break, Bro.!

[SDG]

Both! He is focused on a very legitimate issue. I just find that his tactics are sometimes as offensive as those he is opposed to.

I am not your cookie cutter Apostolic. I count all who have EVER been born again of the water and the spirit as my brother or sister and that is a fact that will never change.

I do feel that much of the angst displayed is in reaction to somewhat of a straw man. I do not limit my fellowship to only those with whom I agree and I do NOT see much if any of what PP sees in my area and in my association with the full spectrum of Apostolics.

I saw a quite a bit of IT ... in various places ...

[philjones]

I saw a quite a bit of IT ... in various places ...

I guess you saw what you were looking for and I saw what I was looking for!:tiphat

[RevDWW]

Now you are being ridiculous. Is that what we are doing when we have revival "crusades" in cities across the country?

Give me a break, Bro.!

I wonder how many Muslims would come out to a "Crusade" ? :winkgrin

[OGIA]

Why are you here? Seriously!

If it disturbs you so greatly, why not just leave?

I'm saying we disagree often here. There is no way we will ever all agree. I recognize this fact. That is the difference between you and I. You are unhappy unless conformity to your values is present.Never mind. You apparently aren't ready to admit to the problem. You last statement applies just as much to you in this instance as it does to me.


Let me know when you're ready to address the log, k? :tiphat

[Nahum]

Now you are being ridiculous. Is that what we are doing when we have revival "crusades" in cities across the country?

Give me a break, Bro.!

That word is offensive, and you used it for a very specific reason.

The entire history and origin of the word revolves around conquering religious foes through bloodshed.

[OGIA]

Impossible!You've got a load of bitterness to deal with. I'm sorry some of it's come from my postings to you.

[Nahum]

I wonder how many Muslims would come out to a "Crusade" ? :winkgrin

I wonder why they hate us so much?

[Nahum]

You've got a load of bitterness to deal with. I'm sorry some of it's come from my postings to you.


Thank you for your ability to read the thoughts and intents of my heart.

[CupCake]

PP, you've got CupCake in your Amen corner now.

Congratulations.:)


I call'em as I see them. Not everything is perfect in paradise coon, if one will be honest~

[SDG]

You've got a load of bitterness to deal with. I'm sorry some of it's come from my postings to you.

Yes ... PP ... the cause has to be bitterness ... and not observation or honest criticism ....

[Coonskinner]

Thank you for your ability to read the thoughts and intents of my heart.


Bro, you propose to read Phil's.

He told you he didn't mean the word "crusade" like that.

[RevDWW]

I wonder why they hate us so much?

I'm sure calling a revival a "crusade" is the least of it!

Mostly, I think, the extreme muslims see all the evils of America and hates us for it.

[SDG]

Thank you for your ability to read the thoughts and intents of my heart.

What's the word we use .. for when folks .... um .... claim they are able to peek into men's heats ????

[Coonskinner]

I'm sure calling a revival a "crusade" is the least of it!

Mostly, I think, the extreme muslims see all the evils of America and hates us for it.

They hate us because they worship a demonic spirit, and we worship Jesus.

Pretty simple.

Allah was the moon God.

[philjones]

That word is offensive, and you used it for a very specific reason.

The entire history and origin of the word revolves around conquering religious foes through bloodshed.

Wow... you assign meaning where none is my friend! A crusade to this ignorant old Okie is anything one is passionate about and pursuing relentlessly!

I assure you that you are WRONG in your assessment of me and my intent in addressing you!

Forgive me for being so easily misunderstood and offending you!

My intention was to try to balance the position and make sure that you are not just assigning guilt to one group when there is plenty to go around on all sides of the issue!

[SDG]

You cant in one breathe call someone militant and express discontent w/ his approach ... and then in the other say you are praying his crusade comes out well ...

[Nahum]

Bro, you propose to read Phil's.

He told you he didn't mean the word "crusade" like that.

PP,

You may have never said it verbatim but it is the feeling I get from many of your posts! You appear militant in your opposition to conservatives. I am sure you don't see your actions in this light, but that is the way the come across to me!

Please understand that I am not attacking you or trying to deny you the right to your opinions. I am simply encouraging you to be less like a particular poster whom you vilify for his statements that are harsh and often offensive!:tiphat

I will leave you to your crusade and pray that all comes out well!

Militant crusade?

What other conclusion is there Coonskinner?

Maybe I am reading his typewritten words incorrectly? Its possible.

[philjones]

You cant in one breathe call someone militant and express discontent w/ his approach ... and then in the other say you are praying his crusade comes out well ...

I most certainly can. I am simply advising him to pursue his goals with a less militant attitude!

End of story!:tiphat

[RevDWW]

They hate us because they worship a demonic spirit, and we worship Jesus.

Pretty simple.

Allah was the moon God.

We both know that there is no God like our God and no name under heaven, but the name of Jesus, in which we find salvation. But they do see the junk that Americans produce and hear of the evils in Amercia and hate us because we don't live a strict code of behavior like they do. I have read comments from Muslims to that effect.

[Coonskinner]

Militant crusade?

What other conclusion is there Coonskinner?

Maybe I am reading his typewritten words incorrectly? Its possible.

"Militant" was used to modify "opposition," not "crusade."

Go back to your sentence diagramming.

You are trying to connect dots where there are none.

And besides, even more importantly, if he said that was not his intent, that was NOT his intent.

Phil is an honorable man and a Christian, and believe me, he isn't afraid to say what he thinks.

He does not lie.

He told you what he meant, and I personally think you really are bound to accept it, or else your are making a serious accusation.

[philjones]

You cant in one breathe call someone militant and express discontent w/ his approach ... and then in the other say you are praying his crusade comes out well ...

Also go reread the wording ...

I will:

1. leave you to your crusade

2. pray that all comes out well.

Where is the problem with that Dan?

[Nahum]

Wow... you assign meaning where none is my friend! A crusade to this ignorant old Okie is anything one is passionate about and pursuing relentlessly!

I assure you that you are WRONG in your assessment of me and my intent in addressing you!

Forgive me for being so easily misunderstood and offending you!

My intention was to try to balance the position and make sure that you are not just assigning guilt to one group when there is plenty to go around on all sides of the issue!

My friend, and I mean that sincerely, you obviously never read my many posts to the exact effect you just mentioned. Excessive liberality is wrong as well. But any time I (or anyone else) points out that this radical right wing fringe is cultic and power hungry and preaching another message it is met with scorn, derision and unbelief.

I am dealing with some very real issues that I am witnessing personally. No one can tell me this spirit is not present among us.

[SDG]

Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church? Yes .. especially those who would seek to define a HOLY GOD with a long sleeve shirt.

Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world?
The "Return to the Law" movement seeks a return to ceremonial laws ...

Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts?
It's the ministry of Caiphas.


Have we replaced Jesus? Do we even need Him any longer?
He' still on the throne ... question who sit on the throne of our hearts

[SDG]

My friend, and I mean that sincerely, you obviously never read my many posts to the exact effect you just mentioned. Excessive liberality is wrong as well. But any time I (or anyone else) points out that this radical right wing fringe is cultic and power hungry and preaching another message it is met with scorn, derision and unbelief.

I am dealing with some very real issues that I am witnessing personally. No one can tell me this spirit is not present among us.

In addition ... instead of acknowledging that a problem might exist ... the call is to say "they do it too".

[Nahum]

"Militant" was used to modify "opposition," not "crusade."

Go back to your sentence diagramming.

You are trying to connect dots where there are none.

And besides, even more importantly, if he said that was not his intent, that was NOT his intent.

Phil is an honorable man and a Christian, and believe me, he isn't afraid to say what he thinks.

He does not lie.

He told you what he meant, and I personally think you really are bound to accept it, or else your are making a serious accusation.

What accusation am I making? You are being unfair friend.
It is okay to say I am militant? It is okay to say that I am on a crusade?
If so, every poster on AFF is as well. We all post about things that are important to us.

The problem is I am on the wrong side of this issue.
I have touched on something very raw.

I have no problem with you or Phil.

[rrford]

My friend, and I mean that sincerely, you obviously never read my many posts to the exact effect you just mentioned. Excessive liberality is wrong as well. But any time I (or anyone else) points out that this radical right wing fringe is cultic and power hungry and preaching another message it is met with scorn, derision and unbelief.

I am dealing with some very real issues that I am witnessing personally. No one can tell me this spirit is not present among us.

Perhaps because we rarely see you point out "specific" liberality the way you do "specific" legality? In all honesty, you do speak more of the negatives of conservatism than liberalism. While that may be due to your perspective based on what you are dealing with, the perspective of folks reading your posts will be based on what they read.

[philjones]

My friend, and I mean that sincerely, you obviously never read my many posts to the exact effect you just mentioned. Excessive liberality is wrong as well. But any time I (or anyone else) points out that this radical right wing fringe is cultic and power hungry and preaching another message it is met with scorn, derision and unbelief.

I am dealing with some very real issues that I am witnessing personally. No one can tell me this spirit is not present among us.

I do not doubt your veracity! I am convinced that your passion is not born out of thin air.

I am simply trying, as a genuine friend, to encourage you to be just as sincere without SEEMING so militant!

To use an old colloquialism, you get more bees with honey than vinegar!

I desire to be a part of a healthy body where the eye is valued for the seeing and the hand is valued for the holding and the foot is valued for the walking and where the value of the eye is not compared to the value of the hand which is not compared to the value of the foot! I am more focused in my ministry on Wholeness that yields holiness!

Please know that I am sincere as I can be and I do have your best interests at heart!:tiphat

[philjones]

In addition ... instead of acknowledging that a problem might exist ... the call is to say "the do it too".

Too. is inclusive of the previously acknowledged agreement to the condition existing. That is acknowledgment in and of itself!

Dan, you need to quit stirring the pot and let this one simmer for a while!:slaphappy :slaphappy

[rrford]

The use if the term "militant" was somewhat problematic, while the term "crusade" was not, IMO.

Of course, the real concern here ought to be when we get upset about others usage of terminology, is how often do we realize when we are doing the same thing and seek to justify it because it is our particular view?

[Coonskinner]

What accusation am I making? You are being unfair friend.
It is okay to say I am militant? It is okay to say that I am on a crusade?
If so, every poster on AFF is as well. We all post about things that are important to us.

The problem is I am on the wrong side of this issue.
I have touched on something very raw.

I have no problem with you or Phil.

He told you he did not mean what you thought he did by the word "crusade."

He did describe your opposition to conservatives as militant, and your tone today has been that, which is fine with me.

I have no problem with you either, but I think you really are obliged to accept his explanation of what he meant.

Look, I have a cordial relationship with people like CC1 who don't believe water is wet. ;)

Your particular brand of position doesn't make me hate you.

[Pressing-On]

O.K., PP I'm back. lol! In the meantime I've read Romans 3 and so whatever the tide brings in it's ebbing and flowing - We walk by faith. We are made righteous by our faith. Faith supersedes everything. When we have nothing left, faith stands.

I understand what you are trying to convey. And I think it's on the lines of - we are trying to position God in many areas and we need to allow him to position us.

The discussion doesn't have anything to do with chunking standards - but - have we replaced the outward element like a sacrament? Has it been beauty or a symbol of honor to be worn proud in our community and before our brethren?

Do we wear it like a cross in the same manner as the Catholic Church? Do we view Jesus for who He is or for what we have done for Him?

I have more to say, but I will go off of other responses in order not to get a head of myself.

I think it's a wonderful discussion!

[rrford]

Too. is inclusive of the previously acknowledged agreement to the condition existing. That is acknowledgment in and of itself!

Dan, you need to quit stirring the pot and let this one simmer for a while!:slaphappy :slaphappy

You do realize that you are asking Dan to cease from doing what he lives for on this Forum, right? :tiphat

[Nahum]

Perhaps because we rarely see you point out "specific" liberality the way you do "specific" legality? In all honesty, you do speak more of the negatives of conservatism than liberalism. While that may be due to your perspective based on what you are dealing with, the perspective of folks reading your posts will be based on what they read.

Go ahead and pile on.

Amazing.

[rrford]

Go ahead and pile on.

Amazing.

Sorry you see it that way. Surely was not my intent. (BTW, don't look now, but it seems Dan has been piling from the other side. :slaphappy )

[SDG]

Moral of the thread ... don't speak out against radical conservatism ... or your toast.

[SDG]

Sorry you see it that way. Surely was not my intent. (BTW, don't look now, but it seems Dan has been piling from the other side. :slaphappy )

Hey ... I know what it's like to be UCed.....

[philjones]

Moral of the thread ... don't speak out against radical conservatism ... or your toast.

Moral of the thread... don't try to bring balance to a skewed view, regardless the reason it is skewed, or your prayers will be ridiculed!

[Coonskinner]

Go ahead and pile on.

Amazing.

Look, if you think we are piling on, I will be happy to unplug from the conversation right now.

Of course, my fans will grieve because they are lurking in the ephemeral shadows of cyberspace, hanging on my every word, yea syllable, but if that's what it takes, I am willing. :)

[Nahum]

Sorry you see it that way. Surely was not my intent. (BTW, don't look now, but it seems Dan has been piling from the other side. :slaphappy )

There is a history here. I will not pretend to know you or your intent.

Not one of you have specifically dealt with the first post of this thread. It has been made personal, and frankly its a little old.

[Praxeas]

If rules can save, what need is there of Jesus?
I didn't say rules can save.

Now, this is not you necessarily....
It's amazing how the western mind works...it can't see the forest for the trees....it's one track with tunnel vision. You say something like "rules are useful" and they go "Aha! so you don't believe Jesus can save you!" or "You have a false god"....all because someone says rules are useful or something similiar

[SDG]

Look, if you think we are piling on, I will be happy to unplug from the conversation right now.

Of course, my fans will grieve because they are lurking in the ephemeral shadows of cyberspace, hanging on my every word, yea syllable, but if that's what it takes, I am willing. :)

Delusion defined

[SDG]

I didn't say rules can save.

Now, this is not you necessarily....
It's amazing how the western mind works...it can't see the forest for the trees....it's one track with tunnel vision. You say something like "rules are useful" and they go "Aha! so you don't believe Jesus can save you!" or "You have a false god"....all because someone says rules are useful or something similiar

Left field ...

[rrford]

This is wearisome.

Start a thread.

Someone disagrees.

Now it is personal.

Dan jumps in and slams whoever he can in an insulting way. That is okay as he is not to be taken to task.

All of a sudden if we disagree, it is "piling on."

Whatever.

Enjoy your thread.

[Praxeas]

I tell what's intellectually dishonest and inane... to say that religion cannot replace God in the hearts of some... this was one of the biggest fights that Jesus had w/ the Pharisees ... they never argued about the Torah ... but the attitude of godlessness expressed by the religious zealots of the day who had replaced God w/ their sanctimonious approach ...

Godlessness can be found on a bar stool, judge's chair , and church pew ...
I agree, but I have never heard anyone say that religion can not replace God in the hearts of some.

[Nahum]

I didn't say rules can save.

Now, this is not you necessarily....
It's amazing how the western mind works...it can't see the forest for the trees....it's one track with tunnel vision. You say something like "rules are useful" and they go "Aha! so you don't believe Jesus can save you!" or "You have a false god"....all because someone says rules are useful or something similiar

I think we are way past "rules are useful".

[SDG]

This is wearisome.

Start a thread.

Someone disagrees.

Now it is personal.

Dan jumps in and slams whoever he can in an insulting way. That is okay as he is not to be taken to task.

All of a sudden if we disagree, it is "piling on."

Whatever.

Enjoy your thread.

Now it's Dan's fault ... classic.

[Nahum]

This is wearisome.

Start a thread.

Someone disagrees.

Now it is personal.

Dan jumps in and slams whoever he can in an insulting way. That is okay as he is not to be taken to task.

All of a sudden if we disagree, it is "piling on."

Whatever.

Enjoy your thread.

You are wrong. Your attitude is wrong.

I engage in dialogue on a daily basis regarding all types of issues where disagreement is present. You have not once addressed the opening post of this thread. You addressed my motivations and approach instead.

[SDG]

You are wrong. Your attitude is wrong.

I engage in dialogue on a daily basis regarding all types of issues where disagreement is present. You have not once addressed the opening post of this thread. You addressed my motivations and approach instead.

It's called .... CATEGORIZE TO MARGINALIZE ... a time-honored strategy

[philjones]

There is a history here. I will not pretend to know you or your intent.

Not one of you have specifically dealt with the first post of this thread. It has been made personal, and frankly its a little old.

Pastor Poster,

When you reference history, are you talking about the long ago row that we had over the term abortion?

[Coonskinner]

"...MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which we have learned: and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve NOT our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and BY GOOD WORDS AND FAIR SPEECHES DECEIVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE!" Romans 16:17,18

JESUS SAID TO HIM, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." John 14:6

Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church?

Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world?

Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts?


Have we replaced Jesus? Do we even need Him any longer?


Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church?

Absolutely. With some.

Just like fleshly license has replaced consecration with the extremists on the other side of the road ditch.

Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world?

There may be a few uninformed, twisted folks who think that way, but I am not in fellowship with anybody whose theology is so warped as that. Nor will I be.


Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts?

The Bible teaches obedience to godly leadership. I teach that too.

I have never heard anyone teach people to ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts.

There.

I have dealt with your points.

No one says these things don't exist.

But neither do I believe they are some widespread, endemic plague that is sweeping Pentecost.

Extremists are around and always will be.

I'm just not going to fellowship them or be one.

[Nahum]

Pastor Poster,

When you reference history, are you talking about the long ago row that we had over the term abortion?

No. I am talking about a consistent pattern of piling on.

Addressing everything but the posts themselves.

[Coonskinner]

Delusion defined

Humor challenged.

[RevDWW]

I didn't say rules can save.

Now, this is not you necessarily....
It's amazing how the western mind works...it can't see the forest for the trees....it's one track with tunnel vision. You say something like "rules are useful" and they go "Aha! so you don't believe Jesus can save you!" or "You have a false god"....all because someone says rules are useful or something similiar

Common standards are not evil in and of themselves. It's good that car makers either use Standard or Metric nuts and bolts or look at the headache mechanics would have when trying to repair them.

But look at the furor that has been stirred up when the US tried to go to the Metric System.

[Pressing-On]

O.K., PP I'm back. lol! In the meantime I've read Romans 3 and so whatever the tide brings in it's ebbing and flowing - We walk by faith. We are made righteous by our faith. Faith supersedes everything. When we have nothing left, faith stands.

I understand what you are trying to convey. And I think it's on the lines of - we are trying to position God in many areas and we need to allow him to position us.

The discussion doesn't have anything to do with chunking standards - but - have we replaced the outward element like a sacrament? Has it been beauty or a symbol of honor to be worn proud in our community and before our brethren?

Do we wear it like a cross in the same manner as the Catholic Church? Do we view Jesus for who He is or for what we have done for Him?

I have more to say, but I will go off of other responses in order not to get a head of myself.

I think it's a wonderful discussion!

*BUMP* for PP!

Boys! Let PP read my post, please. :winkgrin

[Nahum]

Absolutely. With some.

Just like fleshly license has replaced consecration with the extremists on the other side of the road ditch.



There may be a few uninformed, twisted folks who think that way, but I am not in fellowship with anybody whose theology is so warped as that. Nor will I be.




The Bible teaches obedience to godly leadership. I teach that too.

I have never heard anyone teach people to ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts.

There.

I have dealt with your points.

No one says these things don't exist.

But neither do I believe they are some widespread, endemic plague that is sweeping Pentecost.

Extremists are around and always will be.

I'm just not going to fellowship them or be one.

Thank you.:tiphat

[philjones]

No. I am talking about a consistent pattern of piling on.

Addressing everything but the posts themselves.

Thanks!

I just wanted to be sure because I felt we had put that to bed!

[Praxeas]

I wonder why they hate us so much?
Muslims were invading lands, killing Jews and Christians and converting everyone to Islam long before any "crusade"

[rrford]

You are wrong. Your attitude is wrong.

I engage in dialogue on a daily basis regarding all types of issues where disagreement is present. You have not once addressed the opening post of this thread. You addressed my motivations and approach instead.

Ah, so now the one who says others cannot know the motives of someone else supposes to know mine? Interesting, indeed.

In all of my days posting on Forums I cannot recall ever trying to tell someone their attitude was wrong.

Yes, I did address your motivations and I explained why. Seemed like I had a good basis for such. I did not address the opening post as I was more concerned about the motivation than the message. I think we all do that at times before responding to a message.

Unfortunately, what you seem to miss, and what Dan will tell you is not there, is genuine concern. I think I have expressed that before. I will niehter justify nor apologize for that. It's just there.

[Coonskinner]

Muslims were invading lands, killing Jews and Christians and converting everyone to Islam long before any "crusade"

Exactly.

But its fashionable in America now to feel this pervasive, institutionalized guilt because we win wars and have plenty to eat.

[RevDWW]

Exactly.

But its fashionable in America now to feel this pervasive, institutionalized guilt because we win wars and have plenty to eat.

For the record I do not feel guilty about being an American. Where would the world be without us? I don't know but they'd all be speaking German and Japanese...... :tiphat

[Nahum]

O.K., PP I'm back. lol! In the meantime I've read Romans 3 and so whatever the tide brings in it's ebbing and flowing - We walk by faith. We are made righteous by our faith. Faith supersedes everything. When we have nothing left, faith stands.

I understand what you are trying to convey. And I think it's on the lines of - we are trying to position God in many areas and we need to allow him to position us.

The discussion doesn't have anything to do with chunking standards - but - have we replaced the outward element like a sacrament? Has it been beauty or a symbol of honor to be worn proud in our community and before our brethren?

Do we wear it like a cross in the same manner as the Catholic Church? Do we view Jesus for who He is or for what we have done for Him?

I have more to say, but I will go off of other responses in order not to get a head of myself.

I think it's a wonderful discussion!

With some, "holiness" has been elevated to a fourth essential to salvation.

I have actually heard men say that "the way to salvation is repentance, baptism, the infilling of the Holy Ghost and a holy lifestyle".

I always assumed holiness was something that was subsequent and proceeding from our New Birth experience.

[OGIA]

It has been made personal, and frankly its a little old.Seems to be a common complaint of yours, PP. And here I thought it was just me. :largehalo

[Coonskinner]

Y'all have fun.:)

[Nahum]

Ah, so now the one who says others cannot know the motives of someone else supposes to know mine? Interesting, indeed.

In all of my days posting on Forums I cannot recall ever trying to tell someone their attitude was wrong.

Yes, I did address your motivations and I explained why. Seemed like I had a good basis for such. I did not address the opening post as I was more concerned about the motivation than the message. I think we all do that at times before responding to a message.

Unfortunately, what you seem to miss, and what Dan will tell you is not there, is genuine concern. I think I have expressed that before. I will niehter justify nor apologize for that. It's just there.

You chimed in with a specific purpose unrelated to this thread. Your concern is unwarranted and frankly, insulting.

[philjones]

On that note I am out of here!

Ya'll have a good night!

[Praxeas]

Exactly.

But its fashionable in America now to feel this pervasive, institutionalized guilt because we win wars and have plenty to eat.
It will also be part of our downfall just as they have a problem over in Britain with this. Conservatives are not quilt free, but liberals are mostly the ones to whitewash the issue...like Rosie O who says Christians are terrorists and then in reference to Islamic terrorists says there is nothing to fear. She either has an agenda or really does not know history

[RevDWW]

It will also be part of our downfall just as they have a problem over in Britain with this. Conservatives are not quilt free, but liberals are mostly the ones to whitewash the issue...like Rosie O who says Christians are terrorists and then in reference to Islamic terrorists says there is nothing to fear. She either has an agenda or really does not know history

She is just a moron! And I can be quoted on that!!!!:toofunny

[Praxeas]

She is just a moron! And I can be quoted on that!!!!:toofunny
good thing she is not a member of this forum...nor a preacher :winkgrin

[RevDWW]

good thing she is not a member of this forum...nor a preacher :winkgrin

If she was either or both, and still espoused these views she would be no less moronic! :tiphat

My assertions in no wise lessen the fact that Jesus can say a moron!

[SDG]

If she was either or both, and still espoused these views she would be no less moronic! :tiphat

DWW ... tsk ..tsk .. tsk

[Pressing-On]

With some, "holiness" has been elevated to a fourth essential to salvation.

I have actually heard men say that "the way to salvation is repentance, baptism, the infilling of the Holy Ghost and a holy lifestyle".

I always assumed holiness was something that was subsequent and proceeding from our New Birth experience.

It's because you mean "holiness" and they are strictly speaking of "standards".

[RevDWW]

DWW ... tsk ..tsk .. tsk

My assertion in no wise diminishes Jesus ability to save the moron! :toofunny

[The Mrs]

I hope this discussion can continue about the intents of this thread...and NOT about personal issues. :tiphat




For the record PP...

I don't understand why folks are calling this a 'fringe' element.

It's not.

I could probably say that 90% of Oregon is made up of this kind of 'fringe' thinking. It pervades most of the churches here. In fact, there are several pastors that have pulled out of UPC here because it is not 'holy' enough.

To be quite frank and honest...I was one of these folks you reference. My relationship to Jesus was definitely built on stepping stones of rules, and trying to please my pastor. When all that was yanked out from under me, what did I have left? I had to REBUILD a new relationship with Jesus.

[Coonskinner]

You chimed in with a specific purpose unrelated to this thread. Your concern is unwarranted and frankly, insulting.

Brother,

When a friend is concerned about me, I don't consider it insulting.

I guess i am missing something here.

[RevDWW]

Brother,

When a friend is concerned about me, I don't consider it insulting.

I guess i am missing something here.

I agree, but perhaps it would help if the personal concerns were PM'ed?

[Joelel]

I think it's asinine and dishonest, not that this is your intention, to suggest that just because people believe what the bible says about obeying the word, living a holy life and following a set of rules means one has replaced Jesus with them. However it's quite possible for ANYONE to look towards something other than Jesus, including themselves, in order to be saved

I agree with you.The only rule we need is Jesus,I think most people understand Jesus the word is the rule.I wonder about threads like this.

[Nahum]

Brother,

When a friend is concerned about me, I don't consider it insulting.

I guess i am missing something here.

The concern is that I will become an exUPC hating liberal.

Nothing could be further from reality.

[Nahum]

I hope this discussion can continue about the intents of this thread...and NOT about personal issues. :tiphat

For the record PP...

I don't understand why folks are calling this a 'fringe' element.

It's not.

I could probably say that 90% of Oregon is made up of this kind of 'fringe' thinking. It pervades most of the churches here. In fact, there are several pastors that have pulled out of UPC here because it is not 'holy' enough.

To be quite frank and honest...I was one of these folks you reference. My relationship to Jesus was definitely built on stepping stones of rules, and trying to please my pastor. When all that was yanked out from under me, what did I have left? I had to REBUILD a new relationship with Jesus.

Thank you.

I felt the original post was not vicious in any way. Much worse has been posted on AFF. I have family who are in big trouble in Washington State right now over this kind of stuff. It's been on my mind all week.

[Coonskinner]

The concern is that I will become an exUPC hating liberal.

Nothing could be further from reality.

With all due respect and kindness, when they start rallying around you and cheering you on, is it any wonder that somebody might think that?

I think what rrford noted was the fact that you rarely if ever seem to bewail the pitfalls of the extreme left, but are very vociferous in speaking out against conservatives.

Now, keep in mind that this isn't personal--this is just a discussion we are having.

But when you start saying some of the same things in the same tone as some of the folks you say you ain't becoming, even to the point that they start becoming your Amen corner...you do the math.

This is especially troublesome if the only contact someone has with you is this forum.

The things you say here are their only impression of you.

This is not an attempt to pile on, just an attempt to help you see things from a different perspective.

Peace. :tiphat

[Coonskinner]

Thank you.

I felt the original post was not vicious in any way. Much worse has been posted on AFF. I have family who are in big trouble in Washington State right now over this kind of stuff. It's been on my mind all week.

This explains why you are so exercised about this right now.

But Bro, the wackiness you shared about what was going on up there is beyond anything I have ever experienced or heard of anywhere near me in my whole life.

That extreme is not the norm.

I have family spiritually on the rocks right now because of a compromising adulterer who went liberal, too, so I understand your feelings.

[Nahum]

Coonskinner,

Go to members list.
Click on my username
View all threads started by Pastor Poster

I think you will be surprised at the balance.

I have started threads about Apostolic Feminism, Humanism in the church, Apostolic Welfare Culture and more that remark on liberalism.

[Nahum]

When UC's disagree with you they marginalize you. They do not attack based on beliefs or your posts, rather based on your person.

We have about eight pages on this thread that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Coonskinner]

When UC's disagree with you they marginalize you. They do not attack based on beliefs or your posts, rather based on your person.

We have about eight pages on this thread that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I am sorry you feel I have attacked you.

And I really don't qualify as an "ultra-con" anyway.

[Nahum]

I am sorry you feel I have attacked you.

And I really don't qualify as an "ultra-con" anyway.

I am not speaking of you specifically.

I agree. You do not have a mean spirited bone in your body.

[Coonskinner]

I am not speaking of you specifically.

I agree. You do not have a mean spirited bone in your body.

LOL!

There you go...I know men who are ultra conservative who also don't have a mean bone in them.:)

And I know some mean liberals...so how mean a person is is not an indicator of their ultra or not status. :)

[Rhoni]

Coonskinner,

I think what rrford noted was the fact that you rarely if ever seem to bewail the pitfalls of the extreme left, but are very vociferous in speaking out against conservatives.

I think you have a good point here. Not that this is in anyway directed to PP but many of us might look at this issue. I get tired of hearing about the liberties and freedom from legalism by the liberal element. I have never considered it in that regard.

I think to condemn others who know nothing of our traditions or 'holiness standards" and expecting or confronting new converts with issues that they are not mature enough to handle is one thing...BUT for those of us raised in the traditions, and knowing the Biblical standards of dress and modesty and to go against them claiming some new liberty or freedom is almost if not absolutely a 'sin'.

The Bible says, "He that knoweth to do good and doeth it not...to him it is sin"!

Just my thoughts on the issue not addressed to any one particular poster.

Blessings, Rhoni

[rrford]

When UC's disagree with you they marginalize you. They do not attack based on beliefs or your posts, rather based on your person.

We have about eight pages on this thread that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

If this is directed at me, which I sincerely hope it is not, I think you know better than that as I have not attacked you personally. (At least to the best of my knowledge.)

Coonskinner, a couple of posts back, actually expressed it well. That was my intent.

[Whole Hearted]

I am not speaking of you specifically.

I agree. You do not have a mean spirited bone in your body.

No you meant me.:slaphappy

[Nahum]

If this is directed at me, which I sincerely hope it is not, I think you know better than that as I have not attacked you personally. (At least to the best of my knowledge.)

Coonskinner, a couple of posts back, actually expressed it well. That was my intent.

Sure you did, whether it was your intent or not.

But you know what? Its all good. Lots of lessons learned from this thread.

[CupCake]

Yes .. especially those who would seek to define a HOLY GOD with a long sleeve shirt.


The "Return to the Law" movement seeks a return to ceremonial laws ...


It's the ministry of Caiphas.


He' still on the throne ... question who sit on the throne of our hearts

Agree!...;)

[Felicity]

To be quite frank and honest...I was one of these folks you reference. My relationship to Jesus was definitely built on stepping stones of rules, and trying to please my pastor. When all that was yanked out from under me, what did I have left? I had to REBUILD a new relationship with Jesus.I've heard others make similar statements. They felt the same way.

[CupCake]

Go ahead and pile on.

Amazing.

This is quit the norm with these types, it does not matter how much proof you may bring forth. If one makes a negative remark towards anything they hold as a truth, they'll attack you the claws come out , even if they are dead wrong, they cannot see beyond the prison walls they have erected. ....:aaa

[Ron]

One thing I have observed and I am not sure if it is relevant or not, so here's my two cents worth (1 1/2 American).

There are those that say that there is "too much" emphasis on Holiness because of a seeming rigid "set of rules" that some preach.

On another side of the coin is those who preach that, "it doesn't matter how
you look so long as you love Jesus."

At one time we were (society as well) in the same boat. There was a certain
way that people would dress (conservatively) that was the accepted norm.

Along came the liberation movement and the "freedom" it was supposed to bring to both Society and Church.

While I am not saying that I nessecarely agree with the extremes of some ultra Cons, perhaps the reason the clamour sounds so loud is that in some respects, society & the Church world have drifted so far to the extreme of
"freedom" that it at times becomes very hard to distinguish between the world & the Church.

Case in point, in the world and work, I am looked upon as a "Strong C Conservative" but I think I am more a "small C Conservative."

The reason for the disparity?

The workpplace & the world have drifted so far that I am looked as an extreme "CONSERVATIVE!"

I fear that some of that has "seeped" into the Church.

Something to think about & consider when discussing issues like these.

JMHO

[CupCake]

It's called .... CATEGORIZE TO MARGINALIZE ... a time-honored strategy


:slaphappy Lucky some of us can see through to this type of behavior~

[tv1a]

Check the manual. There are more than four steps brother.

With some, "holiness" has been elevated to a fourth essential to salvation.

I have actually heard men say that "the way to salvation is repentance, baptism, the infilling of the Holy Ghost and a holy lifestyle".

I always assumed holiness was something that was subsequent and proceeding from our New Birth experience.

[Ron]

I hope this discussion can continue about the intents of this thread...and NOT about personal issues. :tiphat




For the record PP...

I don't understand why folks are calling this a 'fringe' element.

It's not.

I could probably say that 90% of Oregon is made up of this kind of 'fringe' thinking. It pervades most of the churches here. In fact, there are several pastors that have pulled out of UPC here because it is not 'holy' enough.

To be quite frank and honest...I was one of these folks you reference. My relationship to Jesus was definitely built on stepping stones of rules, and trying to please my pastor. When all that was yanked out from under me, what did I have left? I had to REBUILD a new relationship with Jesus.


Mrs, while not trying to throw myself into a Districts situations (I believe it will have to be changed by those within that District) I found even myself seemigly out of place at a gathering there recently.

Mrs you have an awesome spirit. I really enjoyed my visit with you and your husband and look forward to meeting your family, and having a chance for you guys to meet my family.

You didn't speak out against any Church or any Church member!
I pray for you and your family and count it a priviledge to count you and your husband as "friends" because your friendship is and would be treasured.:tiphat

BTW I hope you have a good trip to Ireland!
Kiss the Blarnet STone for me, and maybe catch a Leprechan and bring him back!:winkgrin

[Ron]

With some, "holiness" has been elevated to a fourth essential to salvation.

I have actually heard men say that "the way to salvation is repentance, baptism, the infilling of the Holy Ghost and a holy lifestyle".

I always assumed holiness was something that was subsequent and proceeding from our New Birth experience.

That's how I see it.
It also isn't just about lifestyles or Clothing but is an attitude as well.
Why is Holiness just refered as a "Clothing" issue???

[Nahum]

That's how I see it.
It also isn't just about lifestyles or Clothing but is an attitude as well.
Why is Holiness just refered as a "Clothing" issue???


Is it okay to come out now?:nah

[The Mrs]

Mrs, while not trying to throw myself into a Districts situations (I believe it will have to be changed by those within that District) I found even myself seemigly out of place at a gathering there recently.

Mrs you have an awesome spirit. I really enjoyed my visit with you and your husband and look forward to meeting your family, and having a chance for you guys to meet my family.

You didn't speak out against any Church or any Church member!
I pray for you and your family and count it a priviledge to count you and your husband as "friends" because your friendship is and would be treasured.:tiphat

BTW I hope you have a good trip to Ireland!
Kiss the Blarnet STone for me, and maybe catch a Leprechan and bring him back!:winkgrin

Thank you for the compliments Bro. Ron! Right back atcha for sure!!! :thumbsup I'm so glad my husband and I got a chance to meet you too! We had a great time...even though I was only half awake! :toofunny

Only one more week!!! Forget the Blarney Stone!!! I'm just now recovering from a strep throat type of cold...so I ain't kissin' NOTHIN' with icky ole germs!!! Blech!!!

[CupCake]

Why is Holiness just refered as a "Clothing" issue???

Ron~ It has become an issue due to the fact the church has made it one. Not sure how it is in Canada, but in Calif and many other states I've lived and travel in it's aways been taught as a true sign someone it one of us, right with God. I've sat under 15 different pastor because of my husband own ministers with the UPCI. I can only recall one UPCI pastor we sat under in Santa Fe NM who did not teach the dress issues as heaven or hell, or a sign someone was right or one of us. This whole dress thing has replace what true standards really are, they have nothing to do with dress issues, it has everything to do with the inner heart of a person.

[RevDWW]

We are in danger when:
When the methods become more important than the motives.
When the rules becomes more important then the relationship.
When perception becomes more important then principal.
When being judgemental becomes more important then being judicious.
When being mean out weights being merciful.
When being grouchy out ways being graceful.

Thought I'd bump this cause I totally agree with what I said! :toofunny

This applies to the whole spectrum,left - middle - right!

[Ron]

Is it okay to come out now?:nah

We are just disscussing issues.
My fist isn't even clenched. I am smiling.:winkgrin

[Felicity]

We are in danger when:
When the methods become more important than the motives.
When the rules becomes more important then the relationship.
When perception becomes more important then principal.
When being judgemental becomes more important then being judicious.
When being mean out weights being merciful.
When being grouchy out ways being graceful.

Thought I'd bump this cause I totally agree with what I said! :toofunny

This applies to the whole spectrum,left - middle - right!Very good. Glad you bumped it because I missed it.

[Ron]

Thank you for the compliments Bro. Ron! Right back atcha for sure!!! :thumbsup I'm so glad my husband and I got a chance to meet you too! We had a great time...even though I was only half awake! :toofunny

Only one more week!!! Forget the Blarney Stone!!! I'm just now recovering from a strep throat type of cold...so I ain't kissin' NOTHIN' with icky ole germs!!! Blech!!!

I just had Strep Throat, Brochitis, and Pink Eye!
Not fun but at least I got it all out of the way!

Good thing you won't be sick when you are away.:tiphat

[OGIA]

I was one of these folks you reference. My relationship to Jesus was definitely built on stepping stones of rules, and trying to please my pastor. When all that was yanked out from under me, what did I have left? I had to REBUILD a new relationship with Jesus.I was one of those who went the other way. I thought those long-sleeve-wearing guys were whack and those long-hair-wearing women were prudes. I wanted to hang with the "cool crowd". You know, the ones who hung out in the bathroom during altar call, who went to football games with the rest of the high school, who got half-naked with females in the same pool, and who just HAD TO go on that senior trip to Florida. I could go on.

MY RELATIONSHIP with Jesus was built upon breaking every rule I could find. He would never be so mean as to cut me off!! I mean, I was NOW a 3rd generation Apostolic Pentecostal!! :grampa

When all of that was yanked out from under me, guess what I had left? I, too, had to REBUILD my relationship with Jesus.


But, you know what? It wasn't my mom's fault. It wasn't my pastor's fault. It wasn't my minister brother's fault. It was MY fault. I took liberties that led me to a life of addiction, fornication, adultery and rebellion to any and everything in my life that didn't threaten my income.


It doesn't matter to which extreme you go. You had BETTER know Him before you get there or it will be ugly!

[RevDWW]

You had BETTER know Him before you get there or it will be ugly!
You are so right!!!

It's needs to be all about our relationship with Him and His with us!

[Pressing-On]

Is it okay to come out now?:nah

Come out
Come out
Where ever you are!

:toofunny

[The Dean]

We are in danger when:
When the methods become more important than the motives.
When the rules becomes more important then the relationship.
When perception becomes more important then principal.
When being judgemental becomes more important then being judicious.
When being mean out weights being merciful.
When being grouchy out ways being graceful.

Good stuff.

[Praxeas]

When UC's disagree with you they marginalize you. They do not attack based on beliefs or your posts, rather based on your person.

We have about eight pages on this thread that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Liberals do the same thing...you all need to join the only intelligent and loving group left...the moderates....we don't need to attack the person, we make everyones arguments look so silly that the person ends up looking dumb anyways. :slaphappy

[Praxeas]

Is it okay to come out now?:nah
No, stay under that bridge for a while longer :slaphappy


Just kidding :friend

[LadyChocolate]

We are in danger when:
When the methods become more important than the motives.
When the rules becomes more important then the relationship.
When perception becomes more important then principal.
When being judgemental becomes more important then being judicious.
When being mean out weights being merciful.
When being grouchy out ways being graceful.

This is what i've been screaming about! well, not to anyone,just mostly in my head.......... but you are sooo right and i've seen these very acts....and when the church or pastor starts to portray the above, many will get hurt....

[Rhoni]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevDWW http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=75399#post75399)
We are in danger when:
When the methods become more important than the motives.
When the rules becomes more important then the relationship.
When perception becomes more important then principal.
When being judgemental becomes more important then being judicious.
When being mean out weights being merciful.
When being grouchy out ways being graceful.




This is the best post of this thread!

Blessings, Rhoni

[Brother Price]

"...MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which we have learned: and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve NOT our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and BY GOOD WORDS AND FAIR SPEECHES DECEIVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE!" Romans 16:17,18

JESUS SAID TO HIM, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." John 14:6

Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church?

Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world?

Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts?


Have we replaced Jesus? Do we even need Him any longer?

With respect, this is one of the most ridiculous thread starters I have veer heard. It is a potshot against standards, and claims we are replacing Jesus with our standards. I preach, live, and proclaim standards because I love Jesus. I am willing to pull away from the world because I love Him. I willingly and wantingly do this. The standards of holiness that are preached are that which helps us to stay saved, and all who come against standards are those who should and are marked.

We have tried to denounce standards as replacing Jesus, and this has failed.
We have tried to call standards legalism, and this is a lie from Hell.
We have tried to make those who love God enough to have standards seem foolish and this has failed.

Those who refuse Christ's law will also refuse standards.
“If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

Enough said.

[Rhoni]

With respect, this is one of the most ridiculous thread starters I have veer heard. It is a potshot against standards, and claims we are replacing Jesus with our standards. I preach, live, and proclaim standards because I love Jesus. I am willing to pull away from the world because I love Him. I willingly and wantingly do this. The standards of holiness that are preached are that which helps us to stay saved, and all who come against standards are those who should and are marked.

We have tried to denounce standards as replacing Jesus, and this has failed.
We have tried to call standards legalism, and this is a lie from Hell.
We have tried to make those who love God enough to have standards seem foolish and this has failed.

Those who refuse Christ's law will also refuse standards.
“If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

Enough said.


I think you have a good point here. Not that this is in anyway directed to PP but many of us might look at this issue. I get tired of hearing about the liberties and freedom from legalism by the liberal element. I have never considered it in that regard.

I think to condemn others who know nothing of our traditions or 'holiness standards" and expecting or confronting new converts with issues that they are not mature enough to handle is one thing...BUT for those of us raised in the traditions, and knowing the Biblical standards of dress and modesty and to go against them claiming some new liberty or freedom is almost if not absolutely a 'sin'.

The Bible says, "He that knoweth to do good and doeth it not...to him it is sin"!

Just my thoughts on the issue not addressed to any one particular poster.

Blessings, Rhoni


I think we were thinking along the same lines Bro. Price.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Pressing-On]

I think we were thinking along the same lines Bro. Price.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni,
I don't believe that was the intention of PP's thread.

I would comment further, but I think I just need to take a break. :tiphat

[Rhoni]

Rhoni,
I don't believe that was the intention of PP's thread.

I would comment further, but I think I just need to take a break. :tiphat

Dear PO,

I am not sure what the intention was...you know how these threads get all turned around...but I am having a great day and mean no harm or negativity toward anyone...and I love you dearly so just take a break and have a blessed day in service this morning!

Love & Prayers, Rhoni

[Trouvere]

"...MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which we have learned: and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve NOT our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and BY GOOD WORDS AND FAIR SPEECHES DECEIVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE!" Romans 16:17,18

JESUS SAID TO HIM, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." John 14:6

Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church?

Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world?

Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts?


Have we replaced Jesus? Do we even need Him any longer?
I don't think so brother.I am sure there are some who major on the minors but I have a wide assortment of contemporaries and I don't find its the majority.
If you find that your circle of contacts is full of this then book some different activities and meet some different church folks.I like to surround myself with positive people who are maxing out for God.In doing so I have not been disapointed.

[Pressing-On]

Well, I'm crying now, PP. It's just that sometimes I feel like I walked in the door and was undressed and I'm someone else.

explain

PP,
What I mean to say is that when I arrived in this movement, and I still know that it was the Lord's doing, I felt like I checked in at the door and was made to be stripped of everything that I was and that I had to conform to what other's wanted and expected of me.

I never have felt as though I could be myself.

I'm trying to be careful as I feel that this subject is important and can deviate in a bad way if someone jumps on what is NOT being said.

I understood your first post. I see that others didn't see nor try to understand what you were trying to convey.

Like I said, I am trying to be careful and so I'm posting a little at a time to make sure my thoughts are not jumbled up.

[rgcraig]

Is it not possible then to discuss the different issues that arise without a defensive or adversarial position? Can we not at least try to be objective? It doesn't mean we have to agree, and it doesn't mean that we have to belittle or demean or tear at others' convictions and doctrinal beliefs either.
I love to listen to the different views and opinions about a multiplicity of topics and issues. I don't agree with everything everyone says and don't have to agree far as that goes, but it's interesting to at least think about what the other person is saying and then examine that in light of scripture.

My understanding has been enlarged and I've gained perspective from a lot of the discussion that goes on but some of this gets a little tiring after a while, at least within the context of how it's presented, but then you know bro :) that I've been engaged in discussion about some of this for several years now, so I guess it's not surprising I find it a little tiring by times.

Other people are coming to the discussion table as newbies and they're all gung ho. ;) :)

Good post Felicity! This is how I feel about this too.

I'm afraid that many posts are read with a "slant" as to who is doing the posting and can't be read for just the words as they are meaning them.

I don't see much difference in what PP has asked here as what Steadfast posted a couple days ago.....

"Liberals are going to be lost and go to Hell for laying down Biblical absolutes and
Conservatives are going to be lost and go to Hell because of a 'spirit' of entitlement."

[Pressing-On]

Good post Felicity! This is how I feel about this too.

I'm afraid that many posts are read with a "slant" as to who is doing the posting and can't be read for just the words as they are meaning them.

I don't see much difference in what PP has asked here as what Steadfast posted a couple days ago......

"Liberals are going to be lost and go to Hell for laying down Biblical absolutes and
Conservatives are going to be lost and go to Hell because of a 'spirit' of entitlement."

Good post, Renda. I hope this thread stays on track! :tiphat

It's not a hasing or bashing of what we don't or do like, it's more the things that have affected us personally. All of these issues can be territorial and positional, therefore, we will have many diverse views.

[Praxeas]

With respect, this is one of the most ridiculous thread starters I have veer heard. It is a potshot against standards, and claims we are replacing Jesus with our standards. I preach, live, and proclaim standards because I love Jesus. I am willing to pull away from the world because I love Him. I willingly and wantingly do this. The standards of holiness that are preached are that which helps us to stay saved, and all who come against standards are those who should and are marked.

We have tried to denounce standards as replacing Jesus, and this has failed.
We have tried to call standards legalism, and this is a lie from Hell.
We have tried to make those who love God enough to have standards seem foolish and this has failed.

Those who refuse Christ's law will also refuse standards.
“If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

Enough said.
This may be nit-picking, but standards....man I hate that word. Holiness yes....but standards is not a biblical word in regards to Holiness.

And it should NEVER be preached. It should be taught. Preaching is for the gospel. Preach the gospel, teach the saints sound biblical principles they can live by.;

[Pressing-On]

This may be nit-picking, but standards....man I hate that word. Holiness yes....but standards is not a biblical word in regards to Holiness.

And it should NEVER be preached. It should be taught. Preaching is for the gospel. Preach the gospel, teach the saints sound biblical principles they can live by.;

I've talked with so many people through the years - pastors, evangelists and saints. The opinion of these people have been - we have portrayed "judgment" much more than we have "mercy."

Exact wording has been - "Underlying everything we do it is judgment."

That can't be denied. I've heard fine preacher's say, "People are only supposed to see the White Throne Judgment once and only once. They should be seeing Jesus."

[tv1a]

My pastor said it best in his sermon (and I have his permission to quote him) He said Pentecostals have substituted standards for worship.

I like that quote. For the first half of the century, no one could beat the worship of Jesus name Holy Ghost filled believers. As time went on more emphasis were put on "standards" than worship. The charismatics didn't take our worship. We gave it to them. Then we sit a make stupid comments like " Are they having real revivals", or "They don't have the "real" Holy Ghost to justify their own failures.

We layed down the Power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost for a dress code. We dropped the delivering power of Jesus and picked up a television ban. We made up rules to replace relationship. We gave up biblical principle and embraced the spirit of the pharisees.

Now to address this post. Since WP knows it all, he may want to explain the difference between a commandment and a standard. I know in his haste to spread a little bovine fertilizer he confused commandments with standards. I think it's fair to give him a few days to google the answer.


With respect, this is one of the most ridiculous thread starters I have veer heard. It is a potshot against standards, and claims we are replacing Jesus with our standards. I preach, live, and proclaim standards because I love Jesus. I am willing to pull away from the world because I love Him. I willingly and wantingly do this. The standards of holiness that are preached are that which helps us to stay saved, and all who come against standards are those who should and are marked.

We have tried to denounce standards as replacing Jesus, and this has failed.
We have tried to call standards legalism, and this is a lie from Hell.
We have tried to make those who love God enough to have standards seem foolish and this has failed.

Those who refuse Christ's law will also refuse standards.
“If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

Enough said.

[tv1a]

I know people who are proud to be known as judgmental.

I've talked with so many people through the years - pastors, evangelists and saints. The opinion of these people have been - we have portrayed "judgment" much more than we have "mercy."

Exact wording has been - "Underlying everything we do it is judgment."

That can't be denied. I've heard fine preacher's say, "People are only supposed to see the White Throne Judgment once and only once. They should be seeing Jesus."

[Nahum]

My pastor said it best in his sermon (and I have his permission to quote him) He said Pentecostals have substituted standards for worship.

I like that quote. For the first half of the century, no one could beat the worship of Jesus name Holy Ghost filled believers. As time went on more emphasis were put on "standards" than worship. The charismatics didn't take our worship. We gave it to them. Then we sit a make stupid comments like " Are they having real revivals", or "They don't have the "real" Holy Ghost to justify their own failures.

We layed down the Power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost for a dress code. We dropped the delivering power of Jesus and picked up a television ban. We made up rules to replace relationship. We gave up biblical principle and embraced the spirit of the pharisees.

Now to address this post. Since WP knows it all, he may want to explain the difference between a commandment and a standard. I know in his haste to spread a little bovine fertilizer he confused commandments with standards. I think it's fair to give him a few days to google the answer.


Wow! This is where I was going initially. That is until I got waylaid upside my head for asking such questions. Thanks for the post.

[tv1a]

You're welcome. I'll be the whipping boy for a while.

Wow! This is where I was going initially. That is until I got waylaid upside my head for asking such questions. Thanks for the post.

[Nahum]

You're welcome. I'll be the whipping boy for a while.

Good luck. Did you bring any gauze and olive oil?

[berkeley]

My pastor said it best in his sermon (and I have his permission to quote him) He said Pentecostals have substituted standards for worship.

I like that quote. For the first half of the century, no one could beat the worship of Jesus name Holy Ghost filled believers. As time went on more emphasis were put on "standards" than worship. The charismatics didn't take our worship. We gave it to them. Then we sit a make stupid comments like " Are they having real revivals", or "They don't have the "real" Holy Ghost to justify their own failures.

We layed down the Power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost for a dress code. We dropped the delivering power of Jesus and picked up a television ban. We made up rules to replace relationship. We gave up biblical principle and embraced the spirit of the pharisees.

Now to address this post. Since WP knows it all, he may want to explain the difference between a commandment and a standard. I know in his haste to spread a little bovine fertilizer he confused commandments with standards. I think it's fair to give him a few days to google the answer.
:bliss

[Pressing-On]

I know people who are proud to be known as judgmental.
Right. It's seems like the older generation has carried a lot of that. At least in my experience that's what it's been. Perhaps they are just afraid of all the changes. I'm sure I will see things that scare me to death, if the Lord should tarry.

[Truly Blessed]

I believe we need to live out the biblical standards taught by Jesus and the writers of the NT, but if we gave emphasis to the issues that they seemed to be most concerned about, our focus certainly would not be what most Apostolic preachers focus on today.

I am always amazed when I hear folks speak of how it is standards that keep us saved. Standards is not what saved us, so how could standards then keep us saved?

There will always be those who find it difficult to trust God with their salvation. There is something in the very nature of man that causes him to feel reluctant to accept a free gift of salvation without getting self effort mixed up in it.

[Neck]

"...MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which we have learned: and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve NOT our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and BY GOOD WORDS AND FAIR SPEECHES DECEIVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE!" Romans 16:17,18

JESUS SAID TO HIM, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." John 14:6

Has "holiness" replaced Jesus as the object of affection in the Apostolic church?

Has a list of rules become the way to salvation instead of the one and only Savior of the world?

Are men teaching God's children to obey them and the rules and ignore the voice of Jesus in their hearts?


Have we replaced Jesus? Do we even need Him any longer?


Many in the pentecostal movement. Including Oneness folks. Have lost sight of the blood of Jesus, our heavenly home etc. They view church and the Lord Jesus as a profit and loss God.

Just my thoughts...

[Praxeas]

I've talked with so many people through the years - pastors, evangelists and saints. The opinion of these people have been - we have portrayed "judgment" much more than we have "mercy."

Exact wording has been - "Underlying everything we do it is judgment."

That can't be denied. I've heard fine preacher's say, "People are only supposed to see the White Throne Judgment once and only once. They should be seeing Jesus."

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

[mizpeh]

I believe we need to live out the biblical standards taught by Jesus and the writers of the NT, but if we gave emphasis to the issues that they seemed to be most concerned about, our focus certainly would not be what most Apostolic preachers focus on today.

I am always amazed when I hear folks speak of how it is standards that keep us saved. Standards is not what saved us, so how could standards then keep us saved?

There will always be those who find it difficult to trust God with their salvation. There is something in the very nature of man that causes him to feel reluctant to accept a free gift of salvation without getting self effort mixed up in it.

AMEN!

What is your definition of Biblical Holiness? (without which no man shall see the Lord)

[Michlow]

I believe we need to live out the biblical standards taught by Jesus and the writers of the NT, but if we gave emphasis to the issues that they seemed to be most concerned about, our focus certainly would not be what most Apostolic preachers focus on today.

I am always amazed when I hear folks speak of how it is standards that keep us saved. Standards is not what saved us, so how could standards then keep us saved?

There will always be those who find it difficult to trust God with their salvation. There is something in the very nature of man that causes him to feel reluctant to accept a free gift of salvation without getting self effort mixed up in it.

Good Post :)

[mizpeh]

Last Bump for Nahum!

[*AQuietPlace*]

This was a good thread.