View Full Version : Shooting At Virginia Tech-33 Dead!
Shooting at Virginia Tech this morning 21 dead!
Sad times we live in.
Can hear gunshots as they report over the radio.
Shooter is killed as well.
Ron,
This is a tragedy. Can you imagine being a parent with a child there waiting for a phone call to know if your child is alive or dead.
(BTW- You need to go to advanced editing and correct your spelling of "shooting" in the title to this thread)
Ron,
This is a tragedy. Can you imagine being a parent with a child there waiting for a phone call to know if your child is alive or dead.
(BTW- You need to go to advanced editing and correct your spelling of "shooting" in the title to this thread)
No I couldn't imagine.
It must be heartbreaking.
rgcraig
04-16-2007, 11:02 AM
Gunman kills 21 on Virginia Tech campus By SUE LINDSEY, Associated Press Writer
7 minutes ago
A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing 21 people in the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history. The gunman was killed but it was unclear if he was shot by police or took his own life.
"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said Virginia Tech president Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."
The university reported shootings at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a co-ed residence hall that houses 895 people, and continuing about two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building.
The name of the gunman was not released.
Up until Monday, the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history took place in 1966 at the University of Texas, where Charles Whitman climbed to the 28th-floor observation deck of a clock tower and opened fire. He killed 16 people before he was gunned down by police. In the Columbine High bloodbath near Littleton, Colo., in 1999, two teenagers killed 12 fellow students and a teacher before taking their own lives.
On Monday, one student was killed in a dorm and the others were killed in the classroom, Virginia Tech Police Chief W.R. Flinchum.
After the shootings, all entrances to the campus were closed and classes canceled through Tuesday.
"There's just a lot of commotion. It's hard to tell exactly what's going on," said Jason Anthony Smith, 19, who lives in the dorm where shooting took place.
Aimee Kanode, a freshman from Martinsville, said the shooting happened on the 4th floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. Kanode's resident assistant knocked on her door about 8 a.m. to notify students to stay put.
"They had us under lockdown," Kanode said. "They temporarily lifted the lockdown, the gunman shot again."
"We're all locked in our dorms surfing the Internet trying to figure out what's going on," Kanode said.
Madison Van Duyne, a student who was interviewed by telephone on CNN, said, "We are all in lockdown. Most of the students are sitting on the floors away from the windows just trying to be as safe as possible."
It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.
In August 2006, the opening day of classes was canceled and the campus closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy involved in the manhunt was killed on a trail just off campus.
The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.
Fox News is reporting that ABC news is reporting on their website that the count is now up to 25 dead and may rise.
Of course in the early stages of a tragedy like this there is a lot of misreporting.
I just heard that the killer was looking for his girlfriend and lined people up before shooting them. Sounds like a nut and not a terrorist act.
Now they are saying 32 dead and 15 wounded. I hope they are wrong and it is not this bad.
UP till now the worst college massacre was in Austin in the early 1960's when Whitman shot and killed 16 people (triva - I played a shot student in the 1975 TV movie about this)
South of I 90
04-16-2007, 11:45 AM
ABC News is now saying 29 dead. This is horrible!!
http://abcnews.go.com/
Pressing-On
04-16-2007, 11:49 AM
My God have mercy!!!!
South of I 90
04-16-2007, 11:51 AM
Death toll keeps going up. CBS News is confirming it a 30.
http://www.cbsnews.com/
It is Terrible!
Young lives taken away for nothing.
Many lives are affected and more will be.
Does anyone know that Columbine's anniversary was this week?
Does anyone also know the signifacance of April 20 th? (Hitlers B/day)
Our local radio broke into regular programming and has been covering it this morning.
We are not immune in Canada. We have had a few shootings at schools.
tamor
04-16-2007, 12:13 PM
It makes me sick to my stomach. I just want to cry. My daughter is in college in east Tennessee and that was the first thing I thought of. Like some of the other sentiments that have been expressed, I can't imagine as a parent, waiting to find out if my child was okay.
So, how many other people have been shot so far today?
So, how many other people have been shot so far today?
What do you mean? Nationwide? I don't understand what you mean.
What do you mean? Nationwide? I don't understand what you mean.
Whether in Virginia, nationwide, or worldwide.
Think Luke 13:1-3.
Whether in Virginia, nationwide, or worldwide.
Think Luke 13:1-3.
Chancellor, you have a point.
On another note-you obviously ain't a parent.
As a parent my heart goes out these people who lost thier children.
I am just as saddened over the one body that was found in a car by Steadfasts
son.
Chancellor, you have a point.Don't we all at one time or another? :)
On another note-you obviously ain't a parent.Ah, but I am.
As a parent my heart goes out these people who lost thier children.
I am just as saddened over the one body that was found in a car by Steadfasts
son.But not just the children at VA Tech.
Don't we all at one time or another? :)
Ah, but I am.
But not just the children at VA Tech.
Chancellor, there are people dying every day. I open up the Obituaries in our local paper and it is loaded with people every day that go into Eternity.
My heart is grieved.
However, the grand scale of this violent act grabs our attention and causes us to ask, why?
Why another shooting?
As a parent have we remembered to hug our children today? Our loved ones?
And yes it does drive home the point of our mortality.
I see no point in minimizing this event. It is the worst mass killing at a College or University in the history of our country.
There has alway been killing since the beginning of time. However there are events that distinguish themselves because of the circumstances, numbers of people killed, etc and this is one of them.
Chan, was the events of 9-11 just another day of killing?
Esther
04-16-2007, 12:38 PM
(CBS/AP) A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing 31 people in the deadliest shooting in U.S. history, a Justice Department official told CBS News.
The FBI and the ATF believe the gunman, described as a young Asian male, used two handguns in the shootings before taking his own life, sources tell CBS News.
At least 20 others were injured in the shootings, police said.
This would make at least 51 shot. That would take a lot of reloading wouldn't it?
(CBS/AP) A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing 31 people in the deadliest shooting in U.S. history, a Justice Department official told CBS News.
The FBI and the ATF believe the gunman, described as a young Asian male, used two handguns in the shootings before taking his own life, sources tell CBS News.
At least 20 others were injured in the shootings, police said.
This would make at least 51 shot. That would take a lot of reloading wouldn't it?
With semi automatics not too many reloads. However I was speaking to my son and we both agreed that if the reports are true he had the students line up and then shot them if I had been #'s 5-20 in that line I would have rushed him to disarm him. Of course it is too early to know what actually happened.
I understand some students jumped out windows to avoid being shot so they may be able to give a better picture as to what happened along with the forensics guys who will examine the trail of shell casings, etc.
Steve Epley
04-16-2007, 12:44 PM
I have a preacher friend who is a professor there?
Esther
04-16-2007, 12:45 PM
With semi automatics not too many reloads. However I wask speaking to my son and we both agreed that if the reports are true he had the students line up and then shot them if I had been #'s 5-20 in that line I would have rushed him to disarm him. Of course it is too early to know what actually happened.
I understand some students jumped out windows to avoid being shot so they may be able to give a better picture as to what happened along with the forensics guys who will examine the trail of shell casings, etc.
That was what I was thinking.
tbpew
04-16-2007, 12:49 PM
That was what I was thinking.
It would seem he felt he was on a mission.
I can not imagine that plain hatred or vengence could be sustained when your victims probably have no direct connection to you.
Theresa
04-16-2007, 12:52 PM
lets just chalk this up to another day in America...critize others for discussing this one event and not the countless others NOT in the headlines....
but get our dander up over 2 little kids doing what kids do, and a father who is just being a dad...
that logic my friend, doesnt make a lick of sense to me....
*shakes head*
BoredOutOfMyMind
04-16-2007, 01:01 PM
Now reported 31 dead-
http://www.wsls.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSLS/MGArticle/SLS_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173350761291
There was a Canadian Student there who reported seeing Police Officers running around campus yelling at students to run as fast as they can to a nearby building and get inside and stay away from windows and lock their doors.
lets just chalk this up to another day in America...critize others for discussing this one event and not the countless others NOT in the headlines....
but get our dander up over 2 little kids doing what kids do, and a father who is just being a dad...
that logic my friend, doesnt make a lick of sense to me....
*shakes head*Since no one here has criticized anyone for discussing this event, your post makes no sense.
another article--
~~~~
Multiple Fatalities in Va. Tech Shooting
April 16, 2007 - 2:50pm
By SUE LINDSEY
Associated Press Writer
BLACKSBURG, Va. - A gunman opened fire in a Virginia Tech dorm and then, two hours later, in a classroom across campus Monday, killing at least 30 people in the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history, government officials told The Associated Press. The gunman was killed, bringing to death toll to 31.
"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said Virginia Tech president Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."
It was not immediately clear whether the gunman was shot by police or took his own life. His name was not released, investigators offered no motive for the attack. It was not known if the gunman was a student.
The shootings spread panic and confusion on campus, with witnesses reporting students jumping out the windows of a classroom building to escape the gunfire. SWAT team members with helmets, flak jackets and assault rifles swarmed over the campus. Students and faculty members carried out some of the wounded themselves, without waiting for ambulances to arrive.
The massacre took place at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a coed dormitory that houses 895 people, and continuing at least two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building about a half-mile away, authorities said.
Police said they were still investigating the shooting at the dorm when they got word of gunfire at the classroom building.
After the first shots were fired, students were warned to stay indoors and away from the windows. But some students said they thought the precautions had been lifted by the time the second burst of gunfire was heard, and some bitterly questioned why the gunman was able to strike a second time, two hours after the bloodshed began.
"What happened today this was ridiculous. And I don't know what happened or what was going through this guy's mind," student Jason Piatt told CNN. "But I'm pretty outraged and I'll say on the record I'm pretty outraged that someone died in a shooting in a dorm at 7 o'clock in the morning and the first e-mail about it - no mention of locking down campus, no mention of canceling classes - they just mention that they're investigating a shooting two hours later at 9:22."
He added: "That's pretty ridiculous and meanwhile, while they're sending out that e-mail, 22 more people got killed."
FBI spokesman Richard Kolko in Washington said there was no evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack, "but all avenues will be explored."
Up until Monday, the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard drove his pickup into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=600&sid=1116589
Margies3
04-16-2007, 01:27 PM
So, how many other people have been shot so far today?
What do you mean? Nationwide? I don't understand what you mean.
Whether in Virginia, nationwide, or worldwide.
Think Luke 13:1-3.
I think these are the posts that Theresa was referring to. You're right, there was no direct criticism. But it sounded a bit implied (in my opinion). Perhaps Theresa was 'reading you wrong', but if so, then so did I. And I wonder how many others?
South of I 90
04-16-2007, 01:28 PM
Since no one here has criticized anyone for discussing this event, your post makes no sense.
It appeared that you were minimalizing this event with your original post.
BTW, the death toll is up to 32 and is now the worst mass killing in US history.
It's a very sad day.
It appeared that you were minimalizing this event with your original post.
BTW, the death toll is up to 32 and is now the worst mass killing in US history.
It's a very sad day.
Agreed on all counts...:(
Chancellor, there are people dying every day. I open up the Obituaries in our local paper and it is loaded with people every day that go into Eternity.
My heart is grieved.
However, the grand scale of this violent act grabs our attention and causes us to ask, why?
Why another shooting?
As a parent have we remembered to hug our children today? Our loved ones?
And yes it does drive home the point of our mortality.Is it the number of people involved that grabs our attention? Why did the media feel it important to report THIS event and not the other shootings that have occurred today? Are the lives of Virginia Tech students somehow more worthy of our attention than those of kids in East Los Angeles or in Detroit or in some other large American city where shootings are commonplace?
The mentality so many of us seem to have is the same as the one expressed by Jesus' disciples when they told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with the sacrifices.
It doesn't matter who it is that died, I think you and I would agree that the death is "tragic" - and more so if the person who died had never obeyed the gospel call.
Theresa
04-16-2007, 01:31 PM
I think these are the posts that Theresa was referring to. You're right, there was no direct criticism. But it sounded a bit implied (in my opinion). Perhaps Theresa was 'reading you wrong', but if so, then so did I. And I wonder how many others?
It appeared that you were minimalizing this event with your original post.
BTW, the death toll is up to 32 and is now the worst mass killing in US history.
It's a very sad day.
thanks y'all - I'd decided not to even respond to his "observation"
sometimes he's just misunderstood and it takes pages and pages of nasty posts before someone realizes that he just spouted off and it was intrepreted by EVERYONE that read it, totally different than he meant it...I thought no response was better than starting some war of words.
and since others felt the same way by their reply, I just left my original comment and his little response....
Theresa
04-16-2007, 01:32 PM
Is it the number of people involved that grabs our attention? Why did the media feel it important to report THIS event and not the other shootings that have occurred today? Are the lives of Virginia Tech students somehow more worthy of our attention than those of kids in East Los Angeles or in Detroit or in some other large American city where shootings are commonplace?
The mentality so many of us seem to have is the same as the one expressed by Jesus' disciples when they told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with the sacrifices.
It doesn't matter who it is that died, I think you and I would agree that the death is "tragic" - and more so if the person who died had never obeyed the gospel call.
no one said to the contrary....
sheesh - sometimes....
oh, nevermind:ignore
Is it the number of people involved that grabs our attention? Why did the media feel it important to report THIS event and not the other shootings that have occurred today? Are the lives of Virginia Tech students somehow more worthy of our attention than those of kids in East Los Angeles or in Detroit or in some other large American city where shootings are commonplace?
The mentality so many of us seem to have is the same as the one expressed by Jesus' disciples when they told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with the sacrifices.
It doesn't matter who it is that died, I think you and I would agree that the death is "tragic" - and more so if the person who died had never obeyed the gospel call.
Chan, common sense dictates that the media cannot report every shooting or death that takes place in a day.
The sheer magnitude and senselessness of this event makes it noteworthy.
South of I 90
04-16-2007, 01:34 PM
Is it the number of people involved that grabs our attention? Why did the media feel it important to report THIS event and not the other shootings that have occurred today? Are the lives of Virginia Tech students somehow more worthy of our attention than those of kids in East Los Angeles or in Detroit or in some other large American city where shootings are commonplace?
The mentality so many of us seem to have is the same as the one expressed by Jesus' disciples when they told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with the sacrifices.
It doesn't matter who it is that died, I think you and I would agree that the death is "tragic" - and more so if the person who died had never obeyed the gospel call.
Oh please........................you got to stay out of that lake effect snow!!
It appeared that you were minimalizing this event with your original post.
BTW, the death toll is up to 32 and is now the worst mass killing in US history.
It's a very sad day.Ah, yes, the appearance argument proving once again that sooooo many people don't actually read what's written but, instead, read things into what is written.
My question was: "So, how many other people have been shot so far today?"
I later clarified this by suggesting to one poster to think in terms of Luke 13:1-3. Did Jesus minimalize the death of the Galileans whose blood Pilate mingled with the sacrifices? Did He minimalize the death of those on whom the tower at Siloam fell? I don't think He did but He did correct the disciples' thinking that the deaths in question were somehow more tragic than other deaths.
Chan, common sense dictates that the media cannot report every shooting or death that takes place in a day.But they can report that x number of people were shot today.
The sheer magnitude and senselessness of this event makes it noteworthy.Does any murder make sense?
We need to stop thinking like the world and start thinking biblically.
no one said to the contrary....Nor did I say that they did
sheesh - sometimes....
oh, nevermind:ignoresheesh - sometimes....
oh, nevermind:ignore
Ah, yes, the appearance argument proving once again that sooooo many people don't actually read what's written but, instead, read things into what is written.
My question was: "So, how many other people have been shot so far today?"
I later clarified this by suggesting to one poster to think in terms of Luke 13:1-3. Did Jesus minimalize the death of the Galileans whose blood Pilate mingled with the sacrifices? Did He minimalize the death of those on whom the tower at Siloam fell? I don't think He did but He did correct the disciples' thinking that the deaths in question were somehow more tragic than other deaths.
Death is tragic, Chan, if it's one person or 5,000...matters not. However, when the 5,000 leave here at one time, it does give us pause and grabs our attention.
Make sense?!
Theresa
04-16-2007, 01:40 PM
But they can report that x number of people were shot today.
Does any murder make sense?
We need to stop thinking like the world and start thinking biblically.
how is being saddned by a reported event "Thinking like the world"?
If we saw reports of every murder, we'd be equally saddened.
But we dont, it's not possible for everything to be reported.
No one has said this event is any more tragic than the nameless person shot and killed this morning in some unknown location...
Subdued
04-16-2007, 01:40 PM
Ah, yes, the appearance argument proving once again that sooooo many people don't actually read what's written but, instead, read things into what is written.
My question was: "So, how many other people have been shot so far today?"
I later clarified this by suggesting to one poster to think in terms of Luke 13:1-3. Did Jesus minimalize the death of the Galileans whose blood Pilate mingled with the sacrifices? Did He minimalize the death of those on whom the tower at Siloam fell? I don't think He did but He did correct the disciples' thinking that the deaths in question were somehow more tragic than other deaths.
I don't think people think the deaths at Virginia Tech are "more tragic" than other deaths that may have occurred today; it's probably the fact that there were so many tragedies all at once... in one place... by one person... Tragedy multiplied.
But they can report that x number of people were shot today.
Does any murder make sense?
We need to stop thinking like the world and start thinking biblically.
And you are and we are not...interesting concept...:tiphat
I think these are the posts that Theresa was referring to. You're right, there was no direct criticism. But it sounded a bit implied (in my opinion). Perhaps Theresa was 'reading you wrong', but if so, then so did I. And I wonder how many others?As I've said before in other threads, I don't imply.
I'm sorry that you and others don't think it's valid to ask how many other people were shot today.
Ah, yes, the appearance argument proving once again that sooooo many people don't actually read what's written but, instead, read things into what is written.
My question was: "So, how many other people have been shot so far today?"
I later clarified this by suggesting to one poster to think in terms of Luke 13:1-3. Did Jesus minimalize the death of the Galileans whose blood Pilate mingled with the sacrifices? Did He minimalize the death of those on whom the tower at Siloam fell? I don't think He did but He did correct the disciples' thinking that the deaths in question were somehow more tragic than other deaths.
I agree Chancellor, they are no more tragic than others, but the media reported
on this one.
As I've said before in other threads, I don't imply.
I'm sorry that you and others don't think it's valid to ask how many other people were shot today.
It is a valid question-I just don't have the answer.
Do you perhaps?
how is being saddned by a reported event "Thinking like the world"?Because, like the world, there's a tendency to think that some deaths are tragic and not even think about other deaths.
If we saw reports of every murder, we'd be equally saddened. Would we?
But we dont, it's not possible for everything to be reported. But the media has a tendency to ignore deaths that occur in certain communities or among certain groups of people.
No one has said this event is any more tragic than the nameless person shot and killed this morning in some unknown location...Did I say that anyone said it?
I agree Chancellor, they are no more tragic than others, but the media reported
on this one.Yes, and as is so typical of the media, they are selective in their reporting and that selectivity so often tends to ignore certain communities or groups of people.
Margies3
04-16-2007, 01:46 PM
As I've said before in other threads, I don't imply.
I'm sorry that you and others don't think it's valid to ask how many other people were shot today.
I guess I just don't understand what your point was then. Were you saying that we should not be discussing this incident because there were other people who were also shot somewhere else in the world today? Was your point to minimalize this incident in some way???
My point to you is that you should say what you mean. When you say things in the way that you have so far, and then we all misunderstand what you were saying, is that our fault? If only one of us misunderstood, then I'd say the answer is 'yes, it's the fault of the person who misunderstood.' But when this many misunderstand, then perhaps the spotlight needs to be pointed a different direction.
It is a valid question-I just don't have the answer.
Do you perhaps?No, I don't have the answer.
Yes, and as is so typical of the media, they are selective in their reporting and that selectivity so often tends to ignore certain communities or groups of people.
You are right and that is subject for another thread because there is a lot to be said there.
JMHO
Because, like the world, there's a tendency to think that some deaths are tragic and not even think about other deaths.
Would we?
But the media has a tendency to ignore deaths that occur in certain communities or among certain groups of people.
Did I say that anyone said it?
Care to be specific?!
Theresa
04-16-2007, 01:51 PM
Because, like the world, there's a tendency to think that some deaths are tragic and not even think about other deaths.
Would we?
But the media has a tendency to ignore deaths that occur in certain communities or among certain groups of people.
Did I say that anyone said it?
yeah, as a matter of fact, you did...
you said we need to stop thinking like the world....
I guess I just don't understand what your point was then. Were you saying that we should not be discussing this incident because there were other people who were also shot somewhere else in the world today? Was your point to minimalize this incident in some way???
My point to you is that you should say what you mean. When you say things in the way that you have so far, and then we all misunderstand what you were saying, is that our fault? If only one of us misunderstood, then I'd say the answer is 'yes, it's the fault of the person who misunderstood.' But when this many misunderstand, then perhaps the spotlight needs to be pointed a different direction.I asked a simple question: "So, how many other people were shot today?" That question means exactly and only what it says. There is nothing implied there. You and others chose to read into the question that I was minimalizing this particular tragedy or that I was saying it was wrong to discuss the incident. And, yes, it is your fault because most of you do read into what others post. You do look for hidden meanings, for things implied or inferred or insinuated.
But, to clarify further since you didn't understand the very simple, straight forward question, why is this particular tragedy so worthy of our attention and the tragedy of the various unreported deaths isn't? (Please note that I said "we" and not "you;" I'm including myself in this).
Why do you and others get so bent out of shape when I view these kinds of things the way Jesus viewed them (as show in the passage in Luke I referred to in other posts)?
Theresa
04-16-2007, 01:57 PM
I asked a simple question: "So, how many other people were shot today?" That question means exactly and only what it says. There is nothing implied there. You and others chose to read into the question that I was minimalizing this particular tragedy or that I was saying it was wrong to discuss the incident. And, yes, it is your fault because most of you do read into what others post. You do look for hidden meanings, for things implied or inferred or insinuated.
But, to clarify further since you didn't understand the very simple, straight forward question, why is this particular tragedy so worthy of our attention and the tragedy of the various unreported deaths isn't? (Please note that I said "we" and not "you;" I'm including myself in this).
Why do you and others get so bent out of shape when I view these kinds of things the way Jesus viewed them (as show in the passage in Luke I referred to in other posts)?
not really, even JESUS would have shown some compassion in his question...
you asked a very point blank question in the midst of folks remarking on the sadness of the situation...and you are surprised that us dumb folk took you wrong...
no my friend, JESUS wouldnt have reacted that way. He would have added a little more to his question...
you are alone in this one
yeah, as a matter of fact, you did...
you said we need to stop thinking like the world....So, how is my saying that we need to stop thinking like the world the same as saying what you accused me of saying, i.e. that I said we were saying "this event is any more tragic than the nameless person shot and killed this morning in some unknown location"?
It's true that "this event is any more tragic than the nameless person shot and killed this morning in some unknown location" is worldly thinking; but I didn't say that anyone said it.
The Scripture that Renda gave us for encouragement this morning is profitable this afternoon...
You will keep in perfect peace all who trust in you, all whose thoughts are fixed on you!
Isaiah 26:3, NLT
For those injured this day, for the grieving families, and grieving students and faculty, may the perfect peace of the Almighty rest on them this day...:praying
Theresa
04-16-2007, 02:00 PM
So, how is my saying that we need to stop thinking like the world the same as saying what you accused me of saying, i.e. that I said we were saying "this event is any more tragic than the nameless person shot and killed this morning in some unknown location"?
It's true that "this event is any more tragic than the nameless person shot and killed this morning in some unknown location" is worldly thinking; but I didn't say that anyone said it.
I guess then you are the only one allowed to read into a post what isnt there....
not really, even JESUS would have shown some compassion in his question...Read what He asked in the context that He asked it. The context was very much like the context of this thread.
you asked a very point blank question in the midst of folks remarking on the sadness of the situation...and you are surprised that us dumb folk took you wrong...Jesus' question in a very similar context was just as point-blank. The problem is that you read more into the question than was there.
no my friend, JESUS wouldnt have reacted that way. He would have added a little more to his question...But He didn't add more to His question. He did, however, answer it and I suspect that if you had been among those who were there at the time you would have took Him wrong.
Care to be specific?!Do I really need to be? I would have thought it was well understood that the national media tends to ignore the shootings that go on in poor and non-white communities.
For the record...
YES, THIS EVENT IS TRAGIC. YES, IT'S SAD THAT ALL THOSE PEOPLE WERE KILLED.
Subdued
04-16-2007, 02:06 PM
Do I really need to be? I would have thought it was well understood that the national media tends to ignore the shootings that go on in poor and non-white communities.
I imagine that a mass-shooting in a black or poor community would be reported/covered as well.
And you are and we are not...interesting concept...:tiphatIn the very limited context of this particular thread.
I imagine that a mass-shooting in a black or poor community would be reported/covered as well.How many people does it take for a shooting to be a mass shooting? Two? Five? Ten?
Subdued
04-16-2007, 02:10 PM
How many people does it take for a shooting to be a mass shooting? Two? Five? Ten?
I have no idea; but I consider today's quantity to be a mass-shooting.
I have no idea; but I consider today's quantity to be a mass-shooting.I would agree.
Chancellor, this is tragic. Any death is tragic. Man was not meant to die.
We were not designed for death.
Jesus came to redeem us from the curse of death which Sin brought upon us all.
An American death is tragic, so is a Canadian, or an African, or Chinese.
It doesn't lessen the tragedy of this day in Virginia.
Lucy Van Pelt
04-16-2007, 02:18 PM
Chan,
You seem to have a hornet in your bonnet today!
Chancellor, this is tragic. Any death is tragic. Man was not meant to die.
We were not designed for death.
Jesus came to redeem us from the curse of death which Sin brought upon us all.
An American death is tragic, so is a Canadian, or an African, or Chinese.
It doesn't lessen the tragedy of this day in Virginia.No, it doesn't lessen it but we humans tend to differentiate in such a way that we tend to view some deaths as somehow more tragic than others. I think part of why Jesus said what He said in Luke 13:1-3 was to correct that tendency in His disciples.
Chan,
You seem to have a hornet in your bonnet today!
Is it paper or buzzing?!:winkgrin
The Scripture that Renda gave us for encouragement this morning is profitable this afternoon...
You will keep in perfect peace all who trust in you, all whose thoughts are fixed on you!
Isaiah 26:3, NLT
For those injured this day, for the grieving families, and grieving students and faculty, may the perfect peace of the Almighty rest on them this day...:praying
I bumped this, not because it is my post, but to remind us to be prayerful.
When praying for kids in school, I think about my nieces and nephews in grade school and up, but don't really consider that college/university can be as dangerous.
May God set a hedge of protection around all of our children as they travel to and from school and throughout their day...
Theresa
04-16-2007, 02:52 PM
Chan,
You seem to have a hornet in your bonnet today!
you can bet it's probably a paper one...
I bumped this, not because it is my post, but to remind us to be prayerful.
When praying for kids in school, I think about my nieces and nephews in grade school and up, but don't really consider that college/university can be as dangerous.
May God set a hedge of protection around all of our children as they travel to and from school and throughout their day...
Yes, and might I add Pray for them every day.
Newman
04-16-2007, 03:02 PM
Yes, and as is so typical of the media, they are selective in their reporting and that selectivity so often tends to ignore certain communities or groups of people.
How bogus! Do you suppose for one minute that had this shooting occurred at Howard University, it wouldn't generate the attention of the media to the extent it has now?
Yes Chan there is a difference between thugs killing thugs and thousands of university students being terrorized by a gunman whose actions were likely never contemplated by millions of students, parents and families.
The media is drawn to this because it touches a raw nerve. It lets us know that the mass shooting like this could have happened at just about any university. And most of America knows and loves someone who attends such a unversity or has a child attending a university; or they attended a university themselves. THEY CAN RELATE TO IT.
Most of America can't relate to gangs killing gangs. They can't relate to children having children and communities that glamorize gangsters and rap.
Most probably feel that they would do whatever they had to do to not live in such a place where killing is normal and feel helpless and hopeless about those who don't move out of such neighborhoods (whatever it takes).
And so Chan the media just might make terror and mass murder at a universtiy the headline news today instead of putting the picture of another dead drug dealer on the front page. Such is life in a free market economy. :cool:
How bogus! Do you suppose for one minute that had this shooting occurred at Howard University, it wouldn't generate the attention of the media to the extent it has now?Maybe, maybe not.
Yes Chan there is a difference between thugs killing thugs and thousands of university students being terrorized by a gunman whose actions were likely never contemplated by millions of students, parents and families. No, there really is no difference.
The media is drawn to this because it touches a raw nerve. It lets us know that the mass shooting like this could have happened at just about any university. And most of America knows and loves someone who attends such a unversity or has a child attending a university; or they attended a university themselves. THEY CAN RELATE TO IT. But why does this touch a "raw nerve" and certain other murders don't? Why do we humans insist on placing greater or lesser value on people?
Most of America can't relate to gangs killing gangs. They can't relate to children having children and communities that glamorize gangsters and rap. So, that makes deaths in those communities not worthy of our attention?
Most probably feel that they would do whatever they had to do to not live in such a place where killing is normal and feel helpless and hopeless about those who don't move out of such neighborhoods (whatever it takes).What this has to do with the subject at hand, I don't know.
And so Chan the media just might make terror and mass murder at a universtiy the headline news today instead of putting the picture of another dead drug dealer on the front page. Such is life in a free market economy. :cool:It has nothing to do with the free market and the economy and you know it!
Steve Epley
04-16-2007, 03:11 PM
How bogus! Do you suppose for one minute that had this shooting occurred at Howard University, it wouldn't generate the attention of the media to the extent it has now?
Yes Chan there is a difference between thugs killing thugs and thousands of university students being terrorized by a gunman whose actions were likely never contemplated by millions of students, parents and families.
The media is drawn to this because it touches a raw nerve. It lets us know that the mass shooting like this could have happened at just about any university. And most of America knows and loves someone who attends such a unversity or has a child attending a university; or they attended a university themselves. THEY CAN RELATE TO IT.
Most of America can't relate to gangs killing gangs. They can't relate to children having children and communities that glamorize gangsters and rap.
Most probably feel that they would do whatever they had to do to not live in such a place where killing is normal and feel helpless and hopeless about those who don't move out of such neighborhoods (whatever it takes).
And so Chan the media just might make terror and mass murder at a universtiy the headline news today instead of putting the picture of another dead drug dealer on the front page. Such is life in a free market economy. :cool:
It pains me to say this but this has to be one of the best posts I have read since I have been on any forum. If I get in trouble this lady will get a call from me and I might even backslide and vote for her if she ran for office. Home run knocked out of the park!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:tip hat
How bogus! Do you suppose for one minute that had this shooting occurred at Howard University, it wouldn't generate the attention of the media to the extent it has now?
Yes Chan there is a difference between thugs killing thugs and thousands of university students being terrorized by a gunman whose actions were likely never contemplated by millions of students, parents and families.
The media is drawn to this because it touches a raw nerve. It lets us know that the mass shooting like this could have happened at just about any university. And most of America knows and loves someone who attends such a unversity or has a child attending a university; or they attended a university themselves. THEY CAN RELATE TO IT.
Most of America can't relate to gangs killing gangs. They can't relate to children having children and communities that glamorize gangsters and rap.
Most probably feel that they would do whatever they had to do to not live in such a place where killing is normal and feel helpless and hopeless about those who don't move out of such neighborhoods (whatever it takes).
And so Chan the media just might make terror and mass murder at a universtiy the headline news today instead of putting the picture of another dead drug dealer on the front page. Such is life in a free market economy. :cool:
Great post, Newman...you said in one post what I've been trying to say all afternoon!!:tiphat
Malvaro
04-16-2007, 03:13 PM
33 dead per MSNBC
Newman
04-16-2007, 03:14 PM
Maybe, maybe not.
No, there really is no difference.
But why does this touch a "raw nerve" and certain other murders don't? Why do we humans insist on placing greater or lesser value on people?
So, that makes deaths in those communities not worthy of our attention?
What this has to do with the subject at hand, I don't know.
It has nothing to do with the free market and the economy and you know it!
Chan- Bro. Epley and Barb understood what I was saying. So I am going to leave it at that. There is no point in arguing with some folks. Good day. :tiphat
Chan- Bro. Epley understood what I was saying. So I am going to leave it at that. There is no point in arguing with some folks. Good day. :tiphatYou mean that you weren't actually saying what you meant?:)
You mean that you weren't actually saying what you meant?
*sigh*
sis. jill
04-16-2007, 03:19 PM
I cannot believe that people are finding out their kids are dead today....and there is arguing on a board over it. When will we ever learn compassion - Chanc?
I cannot believe that people are finding out their kids are dead today....and there is arguing on a board over it. When will we ever learn compassion - Chan?When will we ever learn not to be selective in our compassion? Some here would consider Jesus' response in Luke 13:1-3 to be lacking compassion if they had been there when He said it or if He was here and said it in response to this thread.
Yes, it's a tragedy that these people were murdered. Yes, it's a sad event. But the point that most people here seem to be missing is that all the murders that went unreported today are JUST AS TRAGIC and JUST AS SAD.
rgcraig
04-16-2007, 03:22 PM
When will we ever learn not to be selective in our compassion? Some here would consider Jesus' response in Luke 13:1-3 to be lacking compassion if they had been there when He said it or if He was here and said it in response to this thread.
Yes, it's a tragedy that these people were murdered. Yes, it's a sad event. But the point that most people here seem to be missing is that all the murders that went unreported today are JUST AS TRAGIC and JUST AS SAD.Has someone said they aren't?
Has someone said they aren't?
The way so many here are objecting to my bringing out that fact suggest they believe they aren't - even if none of them come right out and say it. Newman did come close when she said, "Yes Chan there is a difference between thugs killing thugs and thousands of university students being terrorized by a gunman whose actions were likely never contemplated by millions of students, parents and families."
What would be interesting to see is how some people here would respond if Jesus had been here and said to them what He said in Luke 13:1-3.
The fact of the matter is that there are so many other people who were murdered today and their deaths go unnoticed by the rest of us and that's pretty much the point that is being missed here.
I think I understand Chan's point... Black women are called npp h*%&%* by their black contemporaries all the time, but it took 66 year old white guy to say it to make the news. The media frenzy is going to get worse. My prayers go out to the victims friends and families.
I cannot believe that people are finding out their kids are dead today....and there is arguing on a board over it. When will we ever learn compassion - Chanc?
Just another typical day on the forum for some.
For others, it's a call to pray for the people affected by this tragedy.......
CupCake
04-16-2007, 03:47 PM
With semi automatics not too many reloads. However I was speaking to my son and we both agreed that if the reports are true he had the students line up and then shot them if I had been #'s 5-20 in that line I would have rushed him to disarm him. Of course it is too early to know what actually happened.
I understand some students jumped out windows to avoid being shot so they may be able to give a better picture as to what happened along with the forensics guys who will examine the trail of shell casings, etc.
Our laws in this country make it hard for the honest people to arm and protect themselves against such acts as these. Criminals will always have access to weapons, no matter how many law go into effect, only the honest will obey these laws and subject themselves to them, sadly the honest tend to suffer.
Just think, if one of these honest law obeying citizens had been able to open carry just maybe they could have put this nut case down, instead there be only one or two deaths.
This make me think back to that shooter who went into a family dinner back in TX, who began to open fire on everyone. One gal who made it out alive made this remark, "there was nothing I could do as this man shot and killed both my elderly parents along with others, children, woman". All I could think was I had a loaded gun sitting in my truck and I train to use it, I could’ve taken him out, but the law prevented me from open carry in public places like that.
My prayer go out to them all~
Newman
04-16-2007, 03:55 PM
What would be interesting to see is how some people here would respond if Jesus had been here and said to them what He said in Luke 13:1-3.
Luke 13:1-5 speaks of spiritual things not natural things. There were likely Galileans who died in an uprising and workers in Jerusalem who died (most likely in an engineering accident).
The Pharisees were against rebellion agaisnst Rome and may have felt that rebellious Galileans deserved to die; while Zealots may have felt the workers in Jerusalem who were cooperating with Rome got what they deserved.
Rather one dies in a tragic accident or not; is not a measure of how saved someone is. All have a date with death and judgment.
Nobody is denying that here.
However, as HUMANS we grieve most when we can feel other people's pain. And we most easily feel other's people's pain when we have walked in similar shoes.
And so tonight, America will grieve for its youth who had much potential that is forever lost. And for their fathers and mothers who sacraficed greatly so that their child could have a brighter future. And for their siblings left behind without a chance to say goodbye; and for broken dreams and hearts in a land that is supposed to be filled with promise.
Tonight America will grieve because Norman Rockwell doesn't live here anymore. :cool:
Pastor Keith
04-16-2007, 04:04 PM
Luke 13:1-5 speaks of spiritual things not natural things. There were likely Galileans who died in an uprising and workers in Jerusalem who died (most likely in an engineering accident).
The Pharisees were against rebellion agaisnst Rome and may have felt that rebellious Galileans deserved to die; while Zealots may have felt the workers in Jerusalem who were cooperating with Rome got what they deserved.
Rather one dies in a tragic accident or not; is not a measure of how saved someone is. All have a date with death and judgment.
Nobody is denying that here.
However, as HUMANS we grieve most when we can feel other people's pain. And we most easily feel other's people's pain when we have walked in similar shoes.
And so tonight, America will grieve for its youth who had much potential that is forever lost. And for their fathers and mothers who sacraficed greatly so that their child could have a brighter future. And for their siblings left behind without a chance to say goodbye; and for broken dreams and hearts in a land that is supposed to be filled with promise.
Tonight America will grieve because Norman Rockwell doesn't live here anymore. :cool:
Its obvious Chan doesn't have children, I can only imagine what I would be feeling, as I have 3 boys, and every day I hope and pray that they are safe in their school and in their community.
CupCake
04-16-2007, 04:06 PM
This whole thing is sad, specially when it involves the very young, a life cut short before it's time, one that will never experience such joys and heartaches that come with growing old.
My own pray is that my children will know love and be loved a mate, have the joy that comes with having kids of their own someday, I hope they own a home find a professions they really enjoy, I want it all for them, the love the pain that comes with getting old. I pray my kids outlive me. So when a young life is snuff out it hits hard, it hits home.
Luke 13:1-5 speaks of spiritual things not natural things. There were likely Galileans who died in an uprising and workers in Jerusalem who died (most likely in an engineering accident).
The Pharisees were against rebellion agaisnst Rome and may have felt that rebellious Galileans deserved to die; while Zealots may have felt the workers in Jerusalem who were cooperating with Rome got what they deserved.
Rather one dies in a tragic accident or not; is not a measure of how saved someone is. All have a date with death and judgment.
Nobody is denying that here.
However, as HUMANS we grieve most when we can feel other people's pain. And we most easily feel other's people's pain when we have walked in similar shoes.
And so tonight, America will grieve for its youth who had much potential that is forever lost. And for their fathers and mothers who sacraficed greatly so that their child could have a brighter future. And for their siblings left behind without a chance to say goodbye; and for broken dreams and hearts in a land that is supposed to be filled with promise.
Tonight America will grieve because Norman Rockwell doesn't live here anymore. :cool:
Another great post, girl...:tiphat
Its obvious Chan doesn't have children, I can only imagine what I would be feeling, as I have 3 boys, and every day I hope and pray that they are safe in their school and in their community.
That's no excuse, Elder...I don't have kids either, but I get it...
tamor
04-16-2007, 05:03 PM
That's no excuse, Elder...I don't have kids either, but I get it...
Amen. Thank you, Sis Barb
:tiphat
South of I 90
04-16-2007, 05:05 PM
Its obvious Chan doesn't have children, I can only imagine what I would be feeling, as I have 3 boys, and every day I hope and pray that they are safe in their school and in their community.
I'm assuming he doesn't have any children also.
I've called my son who is away at a large university 3 times this afternoon.
I can't imagine what the parents of these students are going through.
tamor
04-16-2007, 05:11 PM
I'm assuming he doesn't have any children also.
I've called my son who is away at a large university 3 times this afternoon.
I can't imagine what the parents of these students are going through.
I have too. We talk a few times a day anyway, but I wanted to hear my daughter's voice after I heard the news. I thank God that my kids are alive. Even everything that my family has been through with our children in the last few weeks seems so trivial now. Watching something like this have a way of changing our perspective of sickness, accidents, etc.
Brother Strange
04-16-2007, 05:14 PM
I agree Chancellor, they are no more tragic than others, but the media reported
on this one.
Ahhh....
The old reasonable tactic.
Never mind bro Ron. It wont work in this case.
rgcraig
04-16-2007, 05:25 PM
I'm assuming he doesn't have any children also.
I've called my son who is away at a large university 3 times this afternoon.
I can't imagine what the parents of these students are going through.
I believe he has a daughter.
I think Chan gets stuck trying to make a point.
South of I 90
04-16-2007, 05:30 PM
I believe he has a daughter.
I think Chan gets stuck trying to make a point.
He should use his time that he has wasted in "trying to make a point" on this particular thread in sensitivity training!!
Trouvere
04-16-2007, 08:11 PM
Shooting at Virginia Tech this morning 21 dead!
Sad times we live in.
Can hear gunshots as they report over the radio.
I just browsed over this article tonight.How awful this is.I was thinking that the U.S. is getting to be like foreign countries with many of its citizens spoiled and drugged by mental health.What this nation needs is Jesus.
sis. jill
04-16-2007, 09:52 PM
My first thoughts as I read this article were, 32 people just slipped into eternity. I wonder if there was someone that told them truth. I wonder if they sat next to an apostolic who was so busy with day to day life that they did not have time to share this blessed gospel with them.
Today I was praying about our prayer meetings at church and lack of attendance. I was trying to find a way to make ladies prayer convenient for everyone involved. God spoke to me and said winning the lost and revival is not about convenience but rather it is about sacrifice. We need to picture our lost loved ones slipping into the pit of hell screaming and crying that they would have one more chance. Looking up, and us looking down into their eyes and trying to explain why we were too busy to take 45 minutes out of our week to intercede in unity to stand in the gap between heaved and hell for souls.
I want revival more than anything else in my life. I want to eat, drink and sleep a passion for souls. I want to be so committed to God and souls that if I lose my life doing it, so be it. There is nothing in life more important than rescuing souls from the pit of hell. We need to all weep for the souls that have been lost today, not just in the shooting but in our towns and our own neighborhoods. Have we done everything possible to win the lost or are we letting them slip right through to hell without a fight.
My first thoughts as I read this article were, 32 people just slipped into eternity. I wonder if there was someone that told them truth. I wonder if they sat next to an apostolic who was so busy with day to day life that they did not have time to share this blessed gospel with them.
Today I was praying about our prayer meetings at church and lack of attendance. I was trying to find a way to make ladies prayer convenient for everyone involved. God spoke to me and said winning the lost and revival is not about convenience but rather it is about sacrifice. We need to picture our lost loved ones slipping into the pit of hell screaming and crying that they would have one more chance. Looking up, and us looking down into their eyes and trying to explain why we were too busy to take 45 minutes out of our week to intercede in unity to stand in the gap between heaved and hell for souls.
I want revival more than anything else in my life. I want to eat, drink and sleep a passion for souls. I want to be so committed to God and souls that if I lose my life doing it, so be it. There is nothing in life more important than rescuing souls from the pit of hell. We need to all weep for the souls that have been lost today, not just in the shooting but in our towns and our own neighborhoods. Have we done everything possible to win the lost or are we letting them slip right through to hell without a fight.
Amen! I was wondering where this was leading when you stated you wanted
Prayer Meeting to be convenient...
Yes winning souls isn't convenient, but it is wortyh it.
Yesterday at Church I was praying and thinking of numerous souls and SS kids I have seen come through our doors in 24 years.
I still care.:tiphat
I think I understand Chan's point... Black women are called npp h*%&%* by their black contemporaries all the time, but it took 66 year old white guy to say it to make the news. The media frenzy is going to get worse. My prayers go out to the victims friends and families.Finally, someone gets it!
Luke 13:1-5 speaks of spiritual things not natural things. There were likely Galileans who died in an uprising and workers in Jerusalem who died (most likely in an engineering accident). Those were natural events: 1) Pilate mingling the blood of Galileans with the sacrifices and; 2) the tower at Siloam falling on some men. Those are NOT spiritual.
The Pharisees were against rebellion agaisnst Rome and may have felt that rebellious Galileans deserved to die; while Zealots may have felt the workers in Jerusalem who were cooperating with Rome got what they deserved.This is nothing more than speculation. Try reading the actual words of the scripture.
Rather one dies in a tragic accident or not; is not a measure of how saved someone is. All have a date with death and judgment. Did I say it was? Your statement is another fine example of poor reading comprehension skills.
Nobody is denying that here.
However, as HUMANS we grieve most when we can feel other people's pain. And we most easily feel other's people's pain when we have walked in similar shoes. And Jesus seemed to be correcting this in His disciples and put those deaths in their proper perspective.
And so tonight, America will grieve for its youth who had much potential that is forever lost. And for their fathers and mothers who sacraficed greatly so that their child could have a brighter future. And for their siblings left behind without a chance to say goodbye; and for broken dreams and hearts in a land that is supposed to be filled with promise.
Tonight America will grieve because Norman Rockwell doesn't live here anymore. :cool:But America will not grieve for all the other people who were murdered yesterday.
Its obvious Chan doesn't have children, I can only imagine what I would be feeling, as I have 3 boys, and every day I hope and pray that they are safe in their school and in their community.
You obviously don't know what you're talking about!
This whole thing is sad, specially when it involves the very young, a life cut short before it's time, one that will never experience such joys and heartaches that come with growing old.
My own pray is that my children will know love and be loved a mate, have the joy that comes with having kids of their own someday, I hope they own a home find a professions they really enjoy, I want it all for them, the love the pain that comes with getting old. I pray my kids outlive me. So when a young life is snuff out it hits hard, it hits home.
Excuse me???? Before its time???? The BIBLE says it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment. No one dies before the appointed time.
We need to stop thinking like this wicked world and start thinking Biblically. Go look at what Jesus said in Luke 13:1-3.
Yes, the shooting was tragic but so were all the other, albeit unreported, shootings that occurred yesterday. Why are these people more deserving of our attention than all the other people who were killed yesterday?
I'm assuming he doesn't have any children also.
I've called my son who is away at a large university 3 times this afternoon.
I can't imagine what the parents of these students are going through.
You know what happens when you assume, don't you?
My first thoughts as I read this article were, 32 people just slipped into eternity. I wonder if there was someone that told them truth. I wonder if they sat next to an apostolic who was so busy with day to day life that they did not have time to share this blessed gospel with them.This is, of course, what should concern us instead of behaving like the world that has no hope (see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). There were other people in America who slipped into eternity yesterday who may also very well have never obeyed the gospel call. Why are these 32 deaths worthy of our attention and not the others?
Today I was praying about our prayer meetings at church and lack of attendance. I was trying to find a way to make ladies prayer convenient for everyone involved. God spoke to me and said winning the lost and revival is not about convenience but rather it is about sacrifice. We need to picture our lost loved ones slipping into the pit of hell screaming and crying that they would have one more chance. Looking up, and us looking down into their eyes and trying to explain why we were too busy to take 45 minutes out of our week to intercede in unity to stand in the gap between heaved and hell for souls. Amen!
I want revival more than anything else in my life. I want to eat, drink and sleep a passion for souls. I want to be so committed to God and souls that if I lose my life doing it, so be it. There is nothing in life more important than rescuing souls from the pit of hell. We need to all weep for the souls that have been lost today, not just in the shooting but in our towns and our own neighborhoods. Have we done everything possible to win the lost or are we letting them slip right through to hell without a fight? I agree and the answer to your question at the end is that we haven't.
Praxeas
04-17-2007, 11:24 AM
Excuse me???? Before its time???? The BIBLE says it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment. No one dies before the appointed time.
We need to stop thinking like this wicked world and start thinking Biblically. Go look at what Jesus said in Luke 13:1-3.
Yes, the shooting was tragic but so were all the other, albeit unreported, shootings that occurred yesterday. Why are these people more deserving of our attention than all the other people who were killed yesterday?
Chan...you always have a way of metaphorically urinating on everyone elses good will.
Anyways, why? We should morn every senseless killing and tragedy, however this gets our attention especially because
It was a senseless act by a lone gunman
It was young kids involved
It happened on a school campus
The doors were locked and nothing was taken...it was intentional mass murder
Which leads to the next point...it was mass murder. It's always more shocking to most of the normal crowd here when several souls go out into eternity at the same time than just one...That does not mean we don't mourn for the 1
I have experience death in my family..some were more profound than others. Recently a family in our church experienced a death by suicide...that was more profound than had she been in a car accident.
Can you add something to this discussion other than "out of the wickeness of your heart you say that" or "why be like this wicked world" when people are griefed over such a senseless mass murder Chan? Do you have ANY sensitivity at all? If so please show us. Thanks
Scott Hutchinson
04-17-2007, 11:32 AM
This really is sad, and having two daughters this sort of thing really makes one think.
RevDWW
04-17-2007, 11:33 AM
Romans 12:9 - Romans 12:21 (KJV) 9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
RevDWW
04-17-2007, 11:34 AM
Chan...you always have a way of metaphorically urinating on everyone elses good will.
Great turn of a phrase, my Tin Headed Friend! :tiphat
rgcraig
04-17-2007, 11:46 AM
Great turn of a phrase, my Tin Headed Friend! :tiphat
I think the more common term is raining on their parade!!!! :toofunny
RevDWW
04-17-2007, 11:51 AM
I think the more common term is raining on their parade!!!! :toofunny
Actually the common word here does start with a P but I don't think it's a parade......:toofunny
rgcraig
04-17-2007, 11:53 AM
Actually the common word here does start with a P but I don't think it's a parade......:toofunny
I know....but I'm a lady!
Chan...you always have a way of metaphorically urinating on everyone elses good will.It's not good will if it's based in worldly thinking.
Anyways, why? We should morn every senseless killing and tragedy,Should we mourn any of them? We should mourn simply because it is a senseless killing and because it shows us just how utterly fallen this world is. Of course, is any killing "senseless" or does it make "sense" in the context of a fallen world utterly given over to sin and Satan?
however this gets our attention especially because
It was a senseless act by a lone gunman
There were other senseless acts yesterday elsewhere in America and probably by lone gunmen.
It was young kids involved
They weren't young kids, they were adults.
It happened on a school campusIt was a college campus but why is that somehow more worthy of our attention than if it had happened in a parking lot or a baseball stadium or on a street corner or in someone's bedroom?
The doors were locked and nothing was taken...it was intentional mass murderWell, the first two deaths seemed to be from a domestic dispute. Would it have been somehow less tragic if the killer hadn't chained some of the doors of the building? Did he lock the classroom door where the bulk of the shooting took place (I didn't hear that he did)? Why are these deaths more worthy of our attention than the young child who gets shot in a drive-by shooting? Why are these deaths more worthy of our attention than a bus load of Israelis being blown up?
Which leads to the next point...it was mass murder. It's always more shocking to most of the normal crowd here when several souls go out into eternity at the same time than just one...Yes, and how about the numerous mass murders that happen in the Middle East at the hands of Muslim terrorists? Are they not worthy of our attention?
That does not mean we don't mourn for the 1
But the one goes unreported as if the media is telling us the one is not worthy of our attention!
I have experience death in my family..some were more profound than others. Recently a family in our church experienced a death by suicide...that was more profound than had she been in a car accident.But there's a difference between these and the shootings at Virginia Tech because you had a personal relationship (of varying degrees) with these folks.
Can you add something to this discussion other than "out of the wickeness of your heart you say that" or "why be like this wicked world" when people are griefed over such a senseless mass murder Chan? Do you have ANY sensitivity at all? If so please show us. ThanksThe point that you and others here are still missing in your so-called "compassion" for those students is that we aren't like the world. We're not supposed to think like the world. Jesus gave us an example of the appropriate response when He corrected His disciples after they called His attention to the tragedy of the Galileans whose blood Pilate mingled with the sacrifices. Jesus then brought up another tragedy, the deaths caused after the tower at Siloam fell. The deaths were tragic (isn't every death "tragic" in some way?) but what was Jesus' response to them? (The answer is in Luke 13:1-3). Notice what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope." Yes, he was writing to the Thessalonians about Christians who die but he still shows us that we are not like the world and we're not to respond to things the way the world does. In my first post in this thread, I asked what I asked in order to get us to look at the larger picture. Yes, it's tragic that these 33 people were murdered yesterday but it is not somehow more tragic that they were murdered than the tragedy of all the other people who were murdered yesterday. Now, does that mean we don't, as the scripture tells us, "weep with those who weep"? No. But, again, why are the deaths of these 33 more worthy of our attention than those of the other people around the country (and, indeed, around the world) who were murdered yesterday?
You and others here may think it's insensitive of me to look at this in the context of Luke 13:1-3 but I don't see you and others here looking at this from a biblical perspective. You're all responding to this based on your emotions. The heart (the seat of emotions) is deceitful above all things, according to Jeremiah. Excuse me for not basing my response to the event on my emotions and for choosing to base my response on God's word!
South of I 90
04-17-2007, 12:50 PM
You know what happens when you assume, don't you?
If this is your attempt at wittiness; you need some fresh material!!
If this is your attempt at wittiness; you need some fresh material!!Had I been attempting wit, I would have put a smiley face after it.
CupCake
04-17-2007, 01:38 PM
The point that you and others here are still missing in your so-called "compassion" for those students is that we aren't like the world.
Wow~ If our love has become like God perfect Agape (Jesus) this should bring one to their knees. Jesus died for that witch was lost, yes they may be of the world, but they are lost, does that sink in at all? If not I'd really ask yourself what god you are following after~ Be thankful you have another day to be loved and share His love, to say yes Lord forgive me and others as well.
Michlow
04-17-2007, 01:41 PM
Chan...you always have a way of metaphorically urinating on everyone elses good will.
:heeheehee
Can you add something to this discussion other than "out of the wickeness of your heart you say that" or "why be like this wicked world" when people are griefed over such a senseless mass murder Chan? Do you have ANY sensitivity at all? If so please show us. Thanks[/QUOTE]
You forgot evil & Vile
:couch
Wow~ If our love has become like God perfect Agape (Jesus) this should bring one to their knees. Jesus died for that witch was lost, yes they may be of the world, but they are lost, does that sink in at all? If not I'd really ask yourself what god you are following after~ Be thankful you have another day to be loved and share His love, to say yes Lord forgive me and others as well.Since it doesn't appear any of us who have participated in this thread know any of the victims personally, we can only presume they are lost (a reasonable presumption but still a presumption). So, let me ask you this: how is their lost state more worthy of our attention than the lost state of the numerous others around the world who were murdered yesterday? Further, what was Jesus' response to His disciples when they were talking about a tragedy that had occurred? What did Jesus say when, in that conversation, He reminded them of yet another tragedy?
You said, "Jesus died for that witch was lost." I'm sure Jesus did not die because "that witch was lost." :)
Michlow
04-17-2007, 01:54 PM
Since it doesn't appear any of us who have participated in this thread know any of the victims personally, we can only presume they are lost (a reasonable presumption but still a presumption). So, let me ask you this: how is their lost state more worthy of our attention than the lost state of the numerous others around the world who were murdered yesterday? Further, what was Jesus' response to His disciples when they were talking about a tragedy that had occurred? What did Jesus say when, in that conversation, He reminded them of yet another tragedy?
You said, "Jesus died for that witch was lost." I'm sure Jesus did not die because "that witch was lost." :)
Jesus died for everyone...even witches :winkgrin
Jesus died for everyone...even witches :winkgrinDid he? That's the subject of another thread.
Michlow
04-17-2007, 01:59 PM
Did he? That's the subject of another thread. :tiphat
CupCake
04-17-2007, 02:08 PM
Since it doesn't appear any of us who have participated in this thread know any of the victims personally, we can only presume they are lost (a reasonable presumption but still a presumption). So, let me ask you this: how is their lost state more worthy of our attention than the lost state of the numerous others around the world who were murdered yesterday? Further, what was Jesus' response to His disciples when they were talking about a tragedy that had occurred? What did Jesus say when, in that conversation, He reminded them of yet another tragedy?
You said, "Jesus died for that witch was lost." I'm sure Jesus did not die because "that witch was lost." :)
I see no difference in where or the who's they've may have been, people are people no matter their race, whether it be here in the states or overseas. The fact is if one can't feel the grief of a life that been snuff out, well maybe there already dead~
I see no difference in where or the who's they've may have been, people are people no matter their race, whether it be here in the states or overseas. The fact is if one can't feel the grief of a life that been snuff out, well maybe there already dead~ I'm glad you don't see a difference but a difference is being made in this thread.
I suspect that folks here would have accused Jesus of being insensitive if He had said to them what He said to His disciples in Luke 13:1-3.
Subdued
04-17-2007, 02:20 PM
I'm glad you don't see a difference but a difference is being made in this thread.
I suspect that folks here would have accused Jesus of being insensitive if He had said to them what He said to His disciples in Luke 13:1-3.
If one doesn't post concerning the grief they may feel over every death that occurs, does that mean that they do not feel grief for every death? (Is it even possible to post about every death that occurs?) You are assuming that each poster here does not consider every death/murder. Perhaps some here do. Not specifically by name, as that's impossible - but perhaps they cry out in pain - maybe even in prayer - for all the lives that were lost each day. Why do you assume?
Theresa
04-17-2007, 02:29 PM
oh
my
word
*shakes head*
Oh my! This wasn't what I intended when I started this thread.
Sorry.
Subdued
04-17-2007, 02:35 PM
Oh my! This wasn't what I intended when I started this thread.
Sorry.
Crazy, isn't it?!
If one doesn't post concerning the grief they may feel over every death that occurs, does that mean that they do not feel grief for every death? (Is it even possible to post about every death that occurs?) You are assuming that each poster here does not consider every death/murder. Perhaps some here do. Not specifically by name, as that's impossible - but perhaps they cry out in pain - maybe even in prayer - for all the lives that were lost each day. Why do you assume?The evidence is in the very creating of this thread. Why is this tragedy more worthy of our attention than all of the other tragedies that happened yesterday (let's just stick with yesterday's events since it would clearly be impossible to have an individual thread about every tragedy that has ever occurred around the world)?
The differentiating is also found in statements such as the one made by Newman: "Yes Chan there is a difference between thugs killing thugs and thousands of university students being terrorized by a gunman whose actions were likely never contemplated by millions of students, parents and families." What she's saying here is clear: the lives of some people are more important than the lives of others and we don't care if people we assume are thugs (because they live in certain neighborhoods) kill other people we assume are thugs.
I call your attention to Luke 13:1-3 - what was Jesus' response when His disciples told Him about what was for them a recent tragedy? What was His response when He brought up another recent tragedy? What did Paul say about grieving in 1 Thessalonians 4:13?
We need to look at the larger picture. No, it is not somehow more tragic that these particular individuals were murdered but what makes it tragic is the lost state of the victims and the perpetrator (presuming that at least most of them were not saved). And shouldn't be shocking or surprising to us because God's word tells us about just how evil this world is. Does this mean we shouldn't "weep with those who weep" as Paul says in Romans? Not at all. But it is the sin of partiality when we're being selective about it as in Newman's statement.
Threads like this get started based on sentimentality and not based on the truth of God's word or a biblical worldview.
Oh my! This wasn't what I intended when I started this thread.
Sorry.Of course it wasn't what you intended. But why is there such strong objection when someone tries to inject a biblical worldview and inject a biblical response into such threads?
It comes down to this: worldly cultures tell us that we're supposed to react to certain situations in a certain way. But we're not of this world and, so, what worldly cultures tell us doesn't apply to us. What applies to us is the culture of God's kingdom, which is the world we are of and to which we will one day go. The reactions many here have had to my posts are based on responses conditioned by worldly cultures and worldly values. People here are offended because I question things that they take for granted.
I think the only correct response to yesterday's event is Jesus' response in Luke 13:1-3. Others think that such a response is an insensitive one.
Of course it wasn't what you intended. But why is there such strong objection when someone tries to inject a biblical world view and inject a biblical response into such threads?
Chancellor, I can see your frame of reference on this.
Cut pretty hard and dry.
However, we live in a real world with real human beings that have real feelings.
Now I know the way that you post isn't meant with any guile or meaning to hurt, but a "little" bit of empathy would go a long way.
JMHO Though.:tiphat
Subdued
04-17-2007, 02:55 PM
I still think it has more to do with "tragedy multiplied" than with who the victims were.
Chancellor, I can see your frame of reference on this.
Cut pretty hard and dry.
However, we live in a real world with real human beings that have real feelings.
Now I know the way that you post isn't meant with any guile or meaning to hurt, but a "little" bit of empathy would go a long way.
JMHO Though.:tiphatBut this is not our world. We're strangers and pilgrims in this world. We're not supposed to be conformed to this world. The reason why some of what I've said in this thread hurts some people is because my responses are not based in the same worldview as theirs. Just because we're human doesn't mean we get to act according to our fallen nature. The heart (the seat of emotions) is deceitful above all things, it cannot be trusted. Most of what others have posted here are heart responses. If people are going to insist on those kinds of responses, that's up to them but it's the sin of partiality to have such a response about one tragedy that happened yesterday and not have the same response with regard to all the other tragedies that happened yesterday.
I've acknowledged throughout this thread that the subject event is tragic but let us not do what we humans so often do in viewing some losses of unsaved life as more tragic than others.
Praxeas
04-17-2007, 02:57 PM
It's not good will if it's based in worldly thinking.
Chancellor, I know rank sinners even atheists that show more sincerity and sensitivity than what you show here to those that grieve over tragic events and loss of life. This is really sad in my honest opinion. I remember when someone started a thread to ask prayer for their family member who was near death and you came off again very insensitive to what others are going through and feeling....I don't know whether to be shocked or concerned for you.
Should we mourn any of them? We should mourn simply because it is a senseless killing and because it shows us just how utterly fallen this world is. Of course, is any killing "senseless" or does it make "sense" in the context of a fallen world utterly given over to sin and Satan?
Why not mourn any of them? Why not mourn the loss of life? Why not? And even greater....why urinate on the mourning of those that have more sensitivity to such tragic events? Why do you have to do that Chan? Do you think you are helping anyone? Your words in threads like this only enflame the emotions of others and then you wonder why they treat you bad....you know if a fly is flying around my head while I am trying to enjoy a nice meal...Im gonna swat it. There is such a thing as Tact...and quite frankly my friend, you display little of it in the time that I have read your posts on NFCF and here. I can respect you in many other areas, but you seem to lack wisdom when it comes to time, place and how.
There were other senseless acts yesterday elsewhere in America and probably by lone gunmen.
Yes and I said...they should be mourned as well. But let's face it Chancellor, those things are common. Some guy going through a school and blowing away 30 kids is not. We also mourned when that crazed gunman shot up that little Amish school. This kind of stuff is shocking and saddening to us and quite frankly perhaps it's even more symptomatic of a greater sickness in our society. We SHOULD be concerned and saddened by it. We should be even MORE burdened for our lost world by these tragic events...Doesn't this sort of stuff make you more burdened for those that don't know Christ? Aren't you the list bit touched that kids, children, or even adults lose their lives? Under any circumstance? Accidents happen Chancellor and they will happen regardless of how well a society is....but someone indiscriminately taking the lives of others is not an accident and it disturbs normal people. I only hope that you are equally as disturbed by it and burdened for those that may have lost their lives and not known Jesus.
I just notice that in most threads like this I never notice you come in and just express sympathy...sensitivity to what people are experiencing...the sadness. Rather, you usually say stuff that just makes people think you are an insensitive person. Can't you ever just go into a thread like that and just say "Yes, this is terrible. I will certainly be praying for them" or "I will be agreeing with you sister in prayer for your husband"?
Chancellor...a lot of people get the impression of you that that is how you are and that you never laugh...that you are stiff and uncaring...yet I have seen times where you have displayed humor and posted a smiley to something that betrays that perhaps wrong opinion of you.
Think about it Chancellor...there is a time to make a point and there is a time to NOT make a point at some else's expense
I'm am reminded of scripture
Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Rom 12:16 of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, [B]but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
1For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
2a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
3a time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6a time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7a time to tear, and a time to sew;
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8a time to love, and a time to hate;
a time for war, and a time for peace.
They weren't young kids, they were adults.
They were KIDS compared to you and I. They were YOUNG Adults and a better question is SO WHAT? Why not mourn or be shocked at such a senseless and tragic event?
It was a college campus but why is that somehow more worthy of our attention than if it had happened in a parking lot or a baseball stadium or on a street corner or in someone's bedroom?
They should ALL be worthy of our Attention Chancellor...if this DID happen at a baseball stadium you can be sure it would get our attention. My question to you is did this get you attention? Does the loss of life get your attention? Does someone just blowing someone else away get your attention? This SHOULD GET YOUR ATTENTION. This is symptomatic of a sick sick world that WE were called to reach out to, not flippantly discount. If Holy Ghost filled Christians can't mourn the loss of life and be burdened at the plight of a sin sick world then WHO will?
Well, the first two deaths seemed to be from a domestic dispute. Would it have been somehow less tragic if the killer hadn't chained some of the doors of the building? Did he lock the classroom door where the bulk of the shooting took place (I didn't hear that he did)? Why are these deaths more worthy of our attention than the young child who gets shot in a drive-by shooting? Why are these deaths more worthy of our attention than a bus load of Israelis being blown up?
Chancellor. It's ALL Tragic my friend. Mourn for them please...please prove me right when I say that you are a human with feelings and a burden for this lost world. Why do you always have to be like a sliver of wood working it's way underneath the skin, like a boil on the rear end that makes sitting down a painful experience. Can't you EVER EVER just offer common sympathy or even tactfully avoid threads like this with your contrary opinion by starting a new thread than to rub everyone the wrong way? Nobody here would dare suggest other unreported deaths are of no concern, but why WHY "urinate" on their feelings when they express sadness at something like this?
Like I said, there is a time and a place....you lack tact and timing my friend. What you say might be important to say and discuss, but your tact and timing show that you lack in other areas of humanity
Yes, and how about the numerous mass murders that happen in the Middle East at the hands of Muslim terrorists? Are they not worthy of our attention?
Chancellor, wake up and smell the coffee..NOBODY and I repeat NOBODY here even remotely suggested EVER that ANYTHING else is NOT worthy of our attention. Just because someone noted this tragic event does NOT mean we have not noted others or that we don't mourn other events. By ALL means Chancellor, if out of the depth of your sincerity and goodness of your heart you feel the burden for these victims in the middle east at the hands of terrorist Please start a thread on it. Why don't you do that? Or are you now just arguing for the sake of arguing? I've never seen you start a thread like that...Do you have anyone you want us to pray for? Is there anyone in your life or at your church that has a need? Do you mourn with those that mourn and rejoice with those that rejoice?
But the one goes unreported as if the media is telling us the one is not worthy of our attention!
Then start a thread attacking the media!!!!!!!! good grief! Nobody here, NOBODY here has suggested unreported tragic events are not important. My goodness! Chancellor, if you like we can make you your own forum where you can scour the reports of all the worlds obscure news outlets and post those tragic events here. It might be good for Christians to see just how screwed up their world is and perhaps be more burdened for them and do something instead of just fighting with one another.
But there's a difference between these and the shootings at Virginia Tech because you had a personal relationship (of varying degrees) with these folks.
Huh? There is no difference AND I have no personal relationship with anyone. Surely you have to realize that somethings are more shocking than others. Now before you launch into another fallacious point, saying that does NOT in any way mean that other tragic events are no big deal. Unless you are just numb there is no way you can not understand that some events are more shocking to the human psyche than others.
Chancellor, at this point I realize this post and my next one might offend you for the strong content and I apologize for that.
Praxeas
04-17-2007, 02:57 PM
The point that you and others here are still missing in your so-called "compassion" for those students is that we aren't like the world.
That part you miss Chancellor is despite not being of the world we are still Humans. We are not emotionless, uncaring robots. The part you miss Chancellor is that we really aren't like the world! That is exactly one reason WHY we are so saddened and shocked by what is happening. This is a world that Jesus LEFT IS IN. That's right. He left us here for a reason Chancellor...to be a LIGHT to them. We don't have to be like the world, but we can sure show the world that God loves the world so much that He gave His own Son to die for them. HE gave....Giving....
12Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
We should be compassionate and we should let our light shine. We are NOT like the world in mourning the loss of life anymore than we are like the world in taking a dump. We are human, but even more compassion we have is an extension of Him in us...it's MORE than a human trait. It's part of the Holy Ghost in us to be compassionate and sympathetic. Being compassionate and sympathetic, btw, is not the same as being sympathetic to people sinning.
Even from what you have told me about how many people end up in the gay lifestyle has helped me to be sympathetic to their plight but by no means discounting any less that homosexuality is still wrong. Being sympathetic and sad at fallen humanity expresses exactly what God feels
Gen 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
We grieve and are saddened by these things Chancellor NOT because we are of the world but because #1 we are human and not sick perverts who feel no sadness at the loss of life or shock that humanity can do such things, and #2 because we have the nature of God in us, changing us
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning,
Php 2:15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
We're not supposed to think like the world.
How is being saddened at the loss of life or being grieved by such tragic events thinking like the world?
Jesus gave us an example of the appropriate response when He corrected His disciples after they called His attention to the tragedy of the Galileans whose blood Pilate mingled with the sacrifices.
Please show me where in the following Jesus forbade mourning or being saddened at the loss of life or told them it was wrong to be grieved by tragic events...
Luk 13:1 There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?
Luk 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
If you want to go tell the sinners, that lest they repent they shall all likewise perish, go for it, but we are not sinners Chancellor.
Jesus then brought up another tragedy, the deaths caused after the tower at Siloam fell. The deaths were tragic (isn't every death "tragic" in some way?) but what was Jesus' response to them? (The answer is in Luke 13:1-3).
I noticed Jesus did NOT say it was wrong to mourn or be saddened at the senseless loss of life or at any kind of loss of life. Jesus used this situation to teach a greater truth, not poopoo their feelings for tragic loss of life. Why do you think Jesus wept? Lazarus laid in the tomb...Jesus wept...
Jesus had compassion. He had compassion on the very sinners he was sent to preach to
Mat 9:36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
Do you think he would not be saddened at the senseless loss of life?
Notice what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope." Yes, he was writing to the Thessalonians about Christians who die but he still shows us that we are not like the world and we're not to respond to things the way the world does.
That is misguided to say the best, Paul is saying we should not grieve for those that fell asleep IN Christ as though grieving for those that die without hope. His point is these DID have hope...why grieve? We can rejoice when someone that dies in the Lord goes home to be with the Lord though we might feel our own sadness of having lost them ourselves. We should not suppose they were with out Hope. You have to keep this in context. We have a hope, we should not grieve. He is not saying don't grieve for those that don't have hope. He is saying don't grieve for those that died HAVING hope as though they had none
One commentator notes
JFB
that ye sorrow not, even as others — Greek, “the rest”; all the rest of the world besides Christians. Not all natural mourning for dead friends is forbidden: for the Lord Jesus and Paul sinlessly gave way to it (Joh_11:31, Joh_11:33, Joh_11:35; Phi_2:27); but sorrow as though there were “no hope,” which indeed the heathen had not (Eph_2:12): the Christian hope here meant is that of the resurrection.
Php 2:25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need,
Php 2:26 for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill.
Php 2:27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
Note that Paul did not say "let's not mourn for him, the way the world does...Bah...if he dies he dies...and if he gets better he gets better". Nope, even Paul had emotions and did not treat such things cavalierly
In my first post in this thread, I asked what I asked in order to get us to look at the larger picture. Yes, it's tragic that these 33 people were murdered yesterday but it is not somehow more tragic that they were murdered than the tragedy of all the other people who were murdered yesterday. Now, does that mean we don't, as the scripture tells us, "weep with those who weep"? No. But, again, why are the deaths of these 33 more worthy of our attention than those of the other people around the country (and, indeed, around the world) who were murdered yesterday?
Chancellor...maybe it's just your tact...but HOW you try to make a greater point ends up being lost in the seemingly lack of tact...second Chancellor NOBODY and I repeat this again but NOBODY suggested it was MORE tragic than any thing else. If we started a thread for every murder it would be absurd. Come on. I don't think you are being reasonable. We ALL agree ALL murders are tragic, but some events carry more profound impact than others.
Have you ever thought about agreeing with others when you Do agree with them and go with that for a while before trying to rub against the grain?
You and others here may think it's insensitive of me to look at this in the context of Luke 13:1-3 but I don't see you and others here looking at this from a biblical perspective. You're all responding to this based on your emotions.
Like I said, there is a time and a place. Emotions are not bad. God created them. You lack tact my friend, timing and place seem to escape your ability to be considerate to how others feel and I know they can escape me from time to time too, but seriously you seem to have a knack for it that as you can see "you and others" here notice it also.
You know...any one of us can make a point and we can all make the same point but online commumities, relationships, friendships and even fellowships are not all about being able to always "make a point"...if you have a death in your church do you go up to that person and make a profound point about how terrorists are killing people too and we should mourn for them also and not just your sister that just died...or do you perhaps just hug them and tell them you are praying for them? Do you understand that?
We had a family that just lost a daughter to suicide...I suppose I could have made a point of whether or no we should mourn her, celebrate her life....gee was she even saved...or all kinds of points...I could quote a ton of scriptures too....What would you do? I know what I did. I said nothing. I hugged them. I showed up at her memorial. I did not try to make a point just becase a point could be made. It was the wrong place, wrong time...wrong people in fact...get it?
The heart (the seat of emotions) is deceitful above all things, according to Jeremiah. Excuse me for not basing my response to the event on my emotions and for choosing to base my response on God's word!
Do you have any emotions? Do you FEEL for the loss of life? Do you FEEL for those parents lossing their kids or being frantic at the news and not knowing whether their son or daughter was dead or not and sitting there frantically waiting news? Just answer the question, don't obfuscate with another question or speculation that we think other tragic events are not important...DO YOU FEEL? DO you have empathy for other humans?
MissBrattified
04-17-2007, 02:57 PM
Chan.
*sigh*
You ask why folks want to aknowledge this tragedy above others, and here's my question:
Why do you want to make folks feel bad for aknowledging something that is bothersome to them, especially when it obvious they are sad or mournful for whatever reason?
One of our dogs was hit yesterday, by a truck, and I buried him myself last night, after the kids had gone to bed, because I couldn't bear to tell them, and my husband is working out of state, and I was crying the whole time I was digging up his grave, and I cried myself to sleep last night.
Now, logically, an animal isn't anything to cry about, is it? They don't have a soul, and from a Biblical point of view, they aren't worthy of crying over more than all the children in Africa who die of starvation every day, but Stella was near and dear to me and I'm still upset, and no doubt our children will be upset, and telling them that there are better things to be upset about and better reasons to cry is no help at all.
Why do you find gratification in condemning folks for their sadness? I find it grievous and sad on any number of levels, including that many of the students and no doubt the shooter were not Christians, but certainly not limited to that reason. I empathize with the parents and sisters and grandparents and brothers and students and friends who are feeling loss, and that empathy would be the source of my own grief.
When something happens on a large or particularly heinous scale, that is out of the ordinary for a particular place or time, it calls attention to itself. There's nothing abnormal or negative about that. As for your point of view...it leaves you with only two options: Cry for every soul that is lost, or don't cry for any at all, because in order to be consistent, you'll have to cry constantly or never.
Most of us cry over the things that we can empathize with, or the things that hit home, or over the things we experience ourselves. I cried when my father died, and although many other folks' fathers die every day, I rarely cry over them, unless they are someone I know or have heard of or am made aware of.
For a man who is SO smart, you lack some common sense and in this case (and others similar to it), wisdom.
I still think it has more to do with "tragedy multiplied" than with who the victims were.To quote Newman, "Yes Chan there is a difference between thugs killing thugs and thousands of university students being terrorized by a gunman whose actions were likely never contemplated by millions of students, parents and families."
Yes, I'm sure that many people here think that this event is somehow more tragic because it's the first time in American history that a lone gunman has murdered this many people.
Praxeas
04-17-2007, 03:02 PM
Chancellor, I can see your frame of reference on this.
Cut pretty hard and dry.
However, we live in a real world with real human beings that have real feelings.
Now I know the way that you post isn't meant with any guile or meaning to hurt, but a "little" bit of empathy would go a long way.
JMHO Though.:tiphat
man it took me close to 20,000 words to say just that :(
Subdued
04-17-2007, 03:17 PM
To quote Newman, "Yes Chan there is a difference between thugs killing thugs and thousands of university students being terrorized by a gunman whose actions were likely never contemplated by millions of students, parents and families."
Yes, I'm sure that many people here think that this event is somehow more tragic because it's the first time in American history that a lone gunman has murdered this many people.
Okay - Chan, ONE of the reasons this captured my attention is because there was so much tragedy in one place as a result of one person. I do not think this is "more tragic" than the death(s) of any other human(s). You are using Newman's post and applying it to everyone here. From now on, please use THIS/MY post & apply it to the majority. One life is no more valuable than another; therefore, no death is "more tragic" than another. Circumstances, however, cause some tragedies to attract more ATTENTION than others.
RevDWW
04-17-2007, 04:38 PM
Luke 13:2 - Luke 13:5 (KJV) 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Jesus brought up accounts of tragedy.
Chan.
*sigh*
You ask why folks want to aknowledge this tragedy above others, and here's my question:
Why do you want to make folks feel bad for aknowledging something that is bothersome to them, especially when it obvious they are sad or mournful for whatever reason?
One of our dogs was hit yesterday, by a truck, and I buried him myself last night, after the kids had gone to bed, because I couldn't bear to tell them, and my husband is working out of state, and I was crying the whole time I was digging up his grave, and I cried myself to sleep last night.
Now, logically, an animal isn't anything to cry about, is it? They don't have a soul, and from a Biblical point of view, they aren't worthy of crying over more than all the children in Africa who die of starvation every day, but Stella was near and dear to me and I'm still upset, and no doubt our children will be upset, and telling them that there are better things to be upset about and better reasons to cry is no help at all.
Why do you find gratification in condemning folks for their sadness? I find it grievous and sad on any number of levels, including that many of the students and no doubt the shooter were not Christians, but certainly not limited to that reason. I empathize with the parents and sisters and grandparents and brothers and students and friends who are feeling loss, and that empathy would be the source of my own grief.
When something happens on a large or particularly heinous scale, that is out of the ordinary for a particular place or time, it calls attention to itself. There's nothing abnormal or negative about that. As for your point of view...it leaves you with only two options: Cry for every soul that is lost, or don't cry for any at all, because in order to be consistent, you'll have to cry constantly or never.
Most of us cry over the things that we can empathize with, or the things that hit home, or over the things we experience ourselves. I cried when my father died, and although many other folks' fathers die every day, I rarely cry over them, unless they are someone I know or have heard of or am made aware of.
For a man who is SO smart, you lack some common sense and in this case (and others similar to it), wisdom.
Absolutely wonderful post, Abi...I do feel badly for your loss...
Newman
04-17-2007, 08:26 PM
Chan.
*sigh*
You ask why folks want to aknowledge this tragedy above others, and here's my question:
Why do you want to make folks feel bad for aknowledging something that is bothersome to them, especially when it obvious they are sad or mournful for whatever reason?
One of our dogs was hit yesterday, by a truck, and I buried him myself last night, after the kids had gone to bed, because I couldn't bear to tell them, and my husband is working out of state, and I was crying the whole time I was digging up his grave, and I cried myself to sleep last night.
Now, logically, an animal isn't anything to cry about, is it? They don't have a soul, and from a Biblical point of view, they aren't worthy of crying over more than all the children in Africa who die of starvation every day, but Stella was near and dear to me and I'm still upset, and no doubt our children will be upset, and telling them that there are better things to be upset about and better reasons to cry is no help at all.
Why do you find gratification in condemning folks for their sadness? I find it grievous and sad on any number of levels, including that many of the students and no doubt the shooter were not Christians, but certainly not limited to that reason. I empathize with the parents and sisters and grandparents and brothers and students and friends who are feeling loss, and that empathy would be the source of my own grief.
When something happens on a large or particularly heinous scale, that is out of the ordinary for a particular place or time, it calls attention to itself. There's nothing abnormal or negative about that. As for your point of view...it leaves you with only two options: Cry for every soul that is lost, or don't cry for any at all, because in order to be consistent, you'll have to cry constantly or never.
Most of us cry over the things that we can empathize with, or the things that hit home, or over the things we experience ourselves. I cried when my father died, and although many other folks' fathers die every day, I rarely cry over them, unless they are someone I know or have heard of or am made aware of.
For a man who is SO smart, you lack some common sense and in this case (and others similar to it), wisdom.
Great post. I admire MissBratfied and Praxeas who keep trying (without becoming hateful) to explain real life and human emotions to Chan. I could not be so diplomatic at this point. ;)
Newman
04-17-2007, 08:31 PM
Okay - Chan, ONE of the reasons this captured my attention is because there was so much tragedy in one place as a result of one person. I do not think this is "more tragic" than the death(s) of any other human(s). You are using Newman's post and applying it to everyone here. From now on, please use THIS/MY post & apply it to the majority. One life is no more valuable than another; therefore, no death is "more tragic" than another. Circumstances, however, cause some tragedies to attract more ATTENTION than others.
He is taking my words out of the context in which they were given. I was addressing a post of his about alleged discrimination in media coverage [not the value of human life in the spiritual realm]. :cool:
Subdued
04-18-2007, 04:27 AM
He is taking my words out of the context in which they were given. I was addressing a post of his about alleged discrimination in media coverage [not the value of human life in the spiritual realm]. :cool:
I know, Newman. I just thought that since he continues to quote your post, and applying it to all, that I'd make a post and request he do the same with mine.
I have not read the posts in this thread, but I will say that the media is using this incident to push for more gun control.
sis. jill
04-18-2007, 06:38 AM
Chan.
*sigh*
You ask why folks want to aknowledge this tragedy above others, and here's my question:
Why do you want to make folks feel bad for aknowledging something that is bothersome to them, especially when it obvious they are sad or mournful for whatever reason?
One of our dogs was hit yesterday, by a truck, and I buried him myself last night, after the kids had gone to bed, because I couldn't bear to tell them, and my husband is working out of state, and I was crying the whole time I was digging up his grave, and I cried myself to sleep last night.
Now, logically, an animal isn't anything to cry about, is it? They don't have a soul, and from a Biblical point of view, they aren't worthy of crying over more than all the children in Africa who die of starvation every day, but Stella was near and dear to me and I'm still upset, and no doubt our children will be upset, and telling them that there are better things to be upset about and better reasons to cry is no help at all.
Why do you find gratification in condemning folks for their sadness? I find it grievous and sad on any number of levels, including that many of the students and no doubt the shooter were not Christians, but certainly not limited to that reason. I empathize with the parents and sisters and grandparents and brothers and students and friends who are feeling loss, and that empathy would be the source of my own grief.
When something happens on a large or particularly heinous scale, that is out of the ordinary for a particular place or time, it calls attention to itself. There's nothing abnormal or negative about that. As for your point of view...it leaves you with only two options: Cry for every soul that is lost, or don't cry for any at all, because in order to be consistent, you'll have to cry constantly or never.
Most of us cry over the things that we can empathize with, or the things that hit home, or over the things we experience ourselves. I cried when my father died, and although many other folks' fathers die every day, I rarely cry over them, unless they are someone I know or have heard of or am made aware of.
For a man who is SO smart, you lack some common sense and in this case (and others similar to it), wisdom.
Great post Abi.
Esther
04-18-2007, 07:24 AM
Chan.
*sigh*
You ask why folks want to aknowledge this tragedy above others, and here's my question:
Why do you want to make folks feel bad for aknowledging something that is bothersome to them, especially when it obvious they are sad or mournful for whatever reason?
One of our dogs was hit yesterday, by a truck, and I buried him myself last night, after the kids had gone to bed, because I couldn't bear to tell them, and my husband is working out of state, and I was crying the whole time I was digging up his grave, and I cried myself to sleep last night.
Now, logically, an animal isn't anything to cry about, is it? They don't have a soul, and from a Biblical point of view, they aren't worthy of crying over more than all the children in Africa who die of starvation every day, but Stella was near and dear to me and I'm still upset, and no doubt our children will be upset, and telling them that there are better things to be upset about and better reasons to cry is no help at all.
Why do you find gratification in condemning folks for their sadness? I find it grievous and sad on any number of levels, including that many of the students and no doubt the shooter were not Christians, but certainly not limited to that reason. I empathize with the parents and sisters and grandparents and brothers and students and friends who are feeling loss, and that empathy would be the source of my own grief.
When something happens on a large or particularly heinous scale, that is out of the ordinary for a particular place or time, it calls attention to itself. There's nothing abnormal or negative about that. As for your point of view...it leaves you with only two options: Cry for every soul that is lost, or don't cry for any at all, because in order to be consistent, you'll have to cry constantly or never.
Most of us cry over the things that we can empathize with, or the things that hit home, or over the things we experience ourselves. I cried when my father died, and although many other folks' fathers die every day, I rarely cry over them, unless they are someone I know or have heard of or am made aware of.
For a man who is SO smart, you lack some common sense and in this case (and others similar to it), wisdom.
Abi, as a major animal lover, I feel your loss. If you don't already have another pet, the best solution is get another as soon as possible.
I know from experience.
As to the rest of your post, EXCELLENT!
Pressing-On
04-18-2007, 10:05 AM
God Wants Gun Control
By Mark D. Tooley
www.FrontPageMagazine.com | April 18, 2007
Left-wing religious officials raced to exploit the Virginia Tech murders by resuscitating their favorite slogans about gun control.
Winning the tackiness contest, National Council of Churches chief Bob Edgar issued a news release within hours of the shootings.
“How many more will have to die before we say enough is enough?” Edgar asked. “How many more senseless deaths will have to be counted before we enact meaningful firearms control in this country? How many more of our pastors, rabbis and imams will have to preside over caskets of innocent victims of gun violence because a nation refused to stop the proliferation of these small weapons of mass destruction?”
Revealingly, Edgar’s quick statement barely mentioned “God,” made no mention of Christ, and quoted no Scripture. Although ostensibly the head of the nation’s chief ecumenical organization for Christian churches, Edgar evidently thought neither the Redeemer nor Holy Writ were all that pertinent in the wake of over two dozen murdered young people. Far more urgent was a renewed push for gun control legislation.
From his perch in Geneva, World Council of Churches chief Samuel Kobia offered prayers for the bereaved before launching into his own political fusillade.
“One of the major obstacles to effective global regulation of small arms and light weapons is the pro-gun position adopted by the U.S. administration during years of international negotiations,” Kobia quickly asserted, connecting the Virginia Tech murders to the global depredations of the United States. “The news from Virginia today is little different than the news from Darfur yesterday and the news from Iraq tomorrow,” he asserted. After all, Blacksburg, Virginia, like Darfur and Iraq, has “wanton killings, the indiscriminate use of armed force and the widespread availability of deadly weapons.”
Kobia hoped that the “gun lobby across the USA” will begin to “understand the rising frustration among concerned citizens and governments around the world.” While admitting there are “other factors,” he still insisted that the “U.S. arms manufacturing and arms sales policies have violent consequences abroad as well as in the U.S.”
“We are all Virginians in our sympathy, but many people around the world are also Virginians in their vulnerability to the misuse of unregulated guns,” Kobia concluded. “The globalized trade in small arms and light weapons must come under firm and appropriate controls.”
Like Kobia, Geneva-based World Alliance of Reformed Churches chief Setri Nyomi was also praying for the Virginia Tech victims and for “the United States of America and all nations as they struggle to overcome the temptation to rely on arms and as they work to find true security for all their peoples." Repentance, from Nyomi’s perspective, would undoubtedly include a ban on hand guns, among other state controls.
United Methodist chief lobbyist Jim Winkler also used the Virginia Tech killings to herald his denomination’s official support for a complete ban on handguns. “The presence of guns in U.S. society has not led to greater security but in fact has undermined the general sense of safety,” he declared. “It must be stated that had this ban been in place this shooting might have been prevented since one of the guns used by the assailant was a 9 mm handgun. We once again call on the Congress to ban on all handguns and assault weapons so that our communities will be safer and so that this endless cycle of violence can be ended.”
Not all Religious Left officials exploited the Virginia Tech horrors. The chief officials of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), the Episcopal Church and the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) tactfully refrained from crowing about their denomination’s stances on gun control. Even evangelical left leader Jim Wallis showed restraint, calling for a time of “prayer and silence.”
ELCA Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson actually quoted Scripture in his statement: “We mourn, we pray, and with the Psalmist we plead: “Out of the depths, I cry to you, O Lord. Lord, hear my voice!’ (Psalm 130:1) As family and friends grieve the deaths and injuries of loved ones, we claim the promise of Christ's Resurrection.”
How unique that a prominent mainline church official actually responded to the horrible deaths of countless young people by pointing to the hope of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why do others of his colleagues not follow his example?
The sin of murder precedes by many millennia the invention of fire arms. It is recorded in the earliest chapters of the Bible, with Cain’s killing his brother Abel, and continues until the final chapters of Revelation. Before the advent of guns, fallen humanity killed each other senselessly by the thousands with spears, with arrows, with hatchets and axes, with rocks, drownings, poisons, arsons, strangulations, starvations and incomprehensible tortures. As Ecclesiastes records, “There is nothing new under the sun.”
Much of the Religious Left, with its absolute faith in statist regulation, and its denial of human fallenness, is confident that murder can be banished by banning its instruments. But human nature is such that murderers will almost always have guns, and even when deprived, will resort to equally lethal weapons.
The state can punish, rarely deter, but it cannot change corrupt human hearts. The social mores that prevent murder are only effectively instilled by religion, which the Religious Left has neglected in favor of political "salvation."
Virginia Tech gunman makes video & mails it between shootings to NBC in New York.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting
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