How would you define AFF? [Archive] - Apostolic Friends Forum

Pro31:28

09-12-2009, 06:52 AM

rgcraig

09-12-2009, 07:14 AM

Hope Preacher

09-12-2009, 07:17 AM

A safe place to express your views. You know that someone is likely to disagree with you and offer you debate - but it is civil and you don't have to worry about slamming or flamming.

Esther

09-12-2009, 09:55 AM

AFF is a variety package of people. Some gently spoken, some moderate, and some adament (sp) about their opinions. But when it comes to prayer needs we are all on the same page. :)

It is set up like a church with the fellowship hall discussing everything that can be thought of in life and church.

The prayer room where prayer request are made and prayed over.

The chefs corner where you can share and discuss recipes and cooking techiniques.

The library where articles written are posted to go back and read.

The deep waters where more thought is given to deeper studies.

The little used debate room, that can get pretty firey.

The more light hearted blogs, or the sports section, and then there is the political area where the thin skin will get quickly hurt.

MarcBee

09-12-2009, 10:09 AM

AFF is a big Christian Halloween party. The members who don't believe in masks and costumes come as they are, show their faces, and accept accountability. Others, for whom the mask of the internet is not enough, wear additional masks that at times morph into strange spirits, with impunity.

:usa

Pro31:28

09-12-2009, 11:35 AM

The main area is like a big ole fellowship hall at church. You've got all types of people talking about all different topics. Some serious, some silly and then you have the quirky ones too.

I'm anxious to read your paragraph!

I haven't decided yet if I want to post the paragraph, as some might be offended. I am happy to PM it though, if you want it :blush

ManOfWord

09-12-2009, 12:26 PM

A place where people can come for fellowship, dialogue and discussion without fear of repercussions from their "overseers" or peer group. A place where people can come for encouragement, laughs and support! A place to make new (imaginary) friends! :D

pelathais

09-12-2009, 01:09 PM

I recently wrote a paper for a Rhetorical Communication course, and the paper was on digital communication. One of the topics was on "online personas". I included a paragraph about AFF in the paper and gave a brief description of the forum.
So here is my question- if you were describing AFF to someone how would you describe it?
It's a pretty typical Internet chat forum; one geared toward those of a Oneness Pentecostal background with a rather wide diversity of opinion from within that genre.

Pro31:28

09-12-2009, 01:39 PM

I haven't decided yet if I want to post the paragraph, as some might be offended. I am happy to PM it though, if you want it :blush

I did decide to post it. Please keep in mind that this was a paper about digital communication and online profiles (specifically when people choose not to reveal their true self) and why people might use them. I attend a Christian University and much of discussion revolves around a Christian Worldview.

"An online discussion board, www.apostolicfriendsforum.com is an online forum where people choose user names and as long as they are respectful, almost any topic is acceptable. What makes this site unique is that most of the members are either former or current members of a religious denomination (UPCI). Many of the threads directly relate to the UPCI, its preachers, its bylaws, etc. because this organization leans to the legalistic side, many of the “lurkers” are looking to leave the organization or are members who watching for people who are looking to leave. This forum allows people, under an assumed name, to ask questions that they would never be able to ask their pastors or fellow church members without fear of condemnation. Thankfully, in this instance, there are “gatekeepers” (administrators) who maintain a form of decorum and demand truth in what people say. When someone comes on looking to start a fight or promote gossip, they are quickly warned and then locked out. Isaiah 1:18a says, “Come now, let us reason together,’ says the LORD” (NIV). These people are looking to think through many major issues in their life and with their relationship with God, it is a healthy way to reason for people who otherwise would not be able to seek this information."

ManOfWord

09-12-2009, 03:36 PM

I did decide to post it. Please keep in mind that this was a paper about digital communication and online profiles (specifically when people choose not to reveal their true self) and why people might use them. I attend a Christian University and much of discussion revolves around a Christian Worldview.

"An online discussion board, www.apostolicfriendsforum.com is an online forum where people choose user names and as long as they are respectful, almost any topic is acceptable. What makes this site unique is that most of the members are either former or current members of a religious denomination (UPCI). Many of the threads directly relate to the UPCI, its preachers, its bylaws, etc. because this organization leans to the legalistic side, many of the “lurkers” are looking to leave the organization or are members who watching for people who are looking to leave. This forum allows people, under an assumed name, to ask questions that they would never be able to ask their pastors or fellow church members without fear of condemnation. Thankfully, in this instance, there are “gatekeepers” (administrators) who maintain a form of decorum and demand truth in what people say. When someone comes on looking to start a fight or promote gossip, they are quickly warned and then locked out. Isaiah 1:18a says, “Come now, let us reason together,’ says the LORD” (NIV). These people are looking to think through many major issues in their life and with their relationship with God, it is a healthy way to reason for people who otherwise would not be able to seek this information."

I can't imagine why someone would be offended at what you've written. It seems to me to be factual. Well said. :D

mizpeh

09-12-2009, 04:11 PM

Is this statement true and how do you know?

many of the “lurkers” are looking to leave the organization or are members who watching for people who are looking to leave.

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 04:14 PM

I disagree that most are connected to the UPC or the characterization that the UPC is legalistic.

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 04:15 PM

Is this statement true and how do you know?

Another good question.

rgcraig

09-12-2009, 04:42 PM

I think there are lurkers on both sides of the fence!

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 04:46 PM

Pro31:28

09-12-2009, 04:53 PM

Is this statement true and how do you know?

Because I know many of the "lurkers" on both sides. I have friends that would never post who they really are for fear of being ostracized and I know people who have told their pastors about people who reveal themselves.

Pro31:28

09-12-2009, 04:55 PM

I disagree that most are connected to the UPC or the characterization that the UPC is legalistic.

I said the UPC because that was my affiliation, and all of the people who I know personally (meaning in person, not those I have met through AFF) were through the UPC. I should have said Oneness.

I did not say that the UPC IS legalistic (although that could be argued depending on the church), I said it leaned that way, which I think it does, at least in my experience.

Pro31:28

09-12-2009, 05:01 PM

If I thought this was a place to usher folks out of the UPC I would not want to be a part of it.

We can talk about education, changing hermeneutics and maturity of Oneness Pentecostals, but this is NOT AN EXIT ZONE.

I do not think it a place to usher people out, and I apologize if it came across that way. I meant that it was a place to have open and healthy conversations, which it is. Some people's circumstances and churches do not allow for that, and so the anonymity afforded them here allows for hard questions.

If someone is happy in the UPC, then they shouldn't be offended or encouraged to leave, but if they are thinking about it, I think that is a safe place to air those questions and concerns. But that is by no means the only thing that AFF does.

Even people who are satisfied with their church can come and ask theological questions for others to weigh in on.

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 06:36 PM

I do not think it a place to usher people out, and I apologize if it came across that way. I meant that it was a place to have open and healthy conversations, which it is. Some people's circumstances and churches do not allow for that, and so the anonymity afforded them here allows for hard questions.

If someone is happy in the UPC, then they shouldn't be offended or encouraged to leave, but if they are thinking about it, I think that is a safe place to air those questions and concerns. But that is by no means the only thing that AFF does.

Even people who are satisfied with their church can come and ask theological questions for others to weigh in on.

Thanks for the apology but I never questioned your intention. I certainly think there could have been a much nicer (not to mention more factual) way of telling the people you were addressing.

At the very least you could have shown balance.

Not all lurkers are "looking to leave". There are those here looking to join the UPC or similar conservative Christian churches. Some are fleeing a Christianity that they feel is neutered. Others are Oneness Pentecostal and know that we as other groups are maturing and working through things within our churches.

Sorry Pro31, but that "chapter" does not reflect myself nor many others in the UPC. It did make me want to call Rick Ross for a deprogramming appointment and set up an exit strategy. :nah

Baron1710

09-12-2009, 06:42 PM

Thanks for the apology but I never questioned your intention. I certainly think there could have been a much nicer way of saying it.

At the very least you could have shown balance.

Not all are "looking to leave". There are those here looking to join the UPC or similar conservative Christian churches. Some are fleeing a Christianity that they feel is neutered. Others are Oneness Pentecostal and know that we as other groups are maturing and working through things within our churches.

Sorry Pro31, but that "chapter" does not reflect myself nor many others in the UPC. It did make me want to call Rick Ross for a deprogramming appointment and set up an exit strategy. :nah

You did know that Rick Ross is Pro31's uncle, right?

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 06:56 PM

You did know that Rick Ross is Pro31's uncle, right?

Who woulda thunk it!

http://www.rickrossdeeperthanrap.com/

Baron1710

09-12-2009, 06:57 PM

Who woulda thunk it!

http://www.rickrossdeeperthanrap.com/

Ya NO not that one.

RandyWayne

09-12-2009, 06:59 PM

How would I define AFF?

America's Future Farmers.

OK, maybe that is FFA -Future Farmers of America.

Pro31:28

09-12-2009, 07:21 PM

Who woulda thunk it!

http://www.rickrossdeeperthanrap.com/

yeah, neither of those Rick's. Completely different.

Pro31:28

09-12-2009, 07:36 PM

Thanks for the apology but I never questioned your intention. I certainly think there could have been a much nicer (not to mention factual) way of telling the people you were addressing.

At the very least you could have shown balance.

Not all are "looking to leave". There are those here looking to join the UPC or similar conservative Christian churches. Some are fleeing a Christianity that they feel is neutered. Others are Oneness Pentecostal and know that we as other groups are maturing and working through things within our churches.

Sorry Pro31, but that "chapter" does not reflect myself nor many others in the UPC. It did make me want to call Rick Ross for a deprogramming appointment and set up an exit strategy. :nah

Hoovie,
I need to ask, what did I say that was not factual? As I stated in my earlier post, we were specifically talking about why people would use screen names and hide their identity in online discussion boards. I never stated nor implied that it was the underground railroad for escaping the UPC, simply that it was a safe place for people to air their concerns and questions.

I personally find AFF a warm and accepting place to come and fellowship with people who understand where I come from. I didn't write a chapter, only a paragraph, and I felt that I was truthful (factual) as I could be.

I am sure that for every member there is a slightly different reason for hanging out here. I gave my perspective, and the perspectives of those with whom I have spoken to about it.

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 07:59 PM

Hoovie,
I need to ask, what did I say that was not factual? As I stated in my earlier post, we were specifically talking about why people would use screen names and hide their identity in online discussion boards. I never stated nor implied that it was the underground railroad for escaping the UPC, simply that it was a safe place for people to air their concerns and questions.

I personally find AFF a warm and accepting place to come and fellowship with people who understand where I come from. I didn't write a chapter, only a paragraph, and I felt that I was truthful (factual) as I could be.

I am sure that for every member there is a slightly different reason for hanging out here. I gave my perspective, and the perspectives of those with whom I have spoken to about it.

I did change it to "more factual" before you posted this. :)

This is highly subjective and assumes leaving legalism is the preferred goal of lurkers who are UPC members.

"...because this organization leans to the legalistic side, many of the “lurkers” are looking to leave the organization..."

Fact is, we have had a few AFF members and lurkers (that we know about) leave the UPC - some become more conservative and some more liberal. We also have some who have joined the UPC.

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 08:08 PM

rgcraig

09-12-2009, 08:11 PM

I did change it to "more factual" before you posted this. :)

This is highly subjective and assumes leaving legalism is the preferred goal of lurkers and UPC members.

"...because this organization leans to the legalistic side, many of the “lurkers” are looking to leave the organization..."

Fact is, we have had a few AFF members and lurkers (that we know about) leave the UPC - some become more conservative and some more liberal. We also have some who have joined the UPC.

How is this a fact?

rgcraig

09-12-2009, 08:16 PM

Perfect example:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=800047&postcount=61

Baron1710

09-12-2009, 08:17 PM

I think it must be acknowledged that the last couple years have seen more leave the UPC to embrace greater conservatism than those who left to become more liberal.

Of course this only means anything in regards to this thread if one equates standards and conservatism with legalism.

That's like saying there are more conservatives in DC based on the number of conservatives that were there today. I think the numbers who have left and are more "liberal" over a statistically significant period of time, would eclipse the number that ran away to become the new wrestling federation.

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 08:18 PM

How is this a fact?

LOL! Well... it assumes they are not still anonymous lurkers does it not? They have shared their stories with us here otherwise one can claim 100% of the lurkers are Satan worshipers.

rgcraig

09-12-2009, 08:21 PM

LOL! Well... it assumes they are not still anonymous lurkers does it not? They have shared their stories with us here otherwise one can claim 100% of the lurkers are Satan worshipers.

LOL!

I tend to agree with what Proverbs has stated. Also, she's only acknowledging UPC because it's her background - - it was her paper and she wrote it from HER view.

I didn't take what she wrote to be against UPC at all which it seems some are. She just stated "in her experience" which is what we all do.

rgcraig

09-12-2009, 08:23 PM

To be fair, we need to mention that we have one go back to UPC, then leave, then go back, then leave.

Just saying.

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 08:33 PM

I think the numbers who have left and are more "liberal" over a statistically significant period of time, would eclipse the number that ran away to become the new wrestling federation.

I would not argue with that - a significant number even appear to have embraced homosexuality...

oops!

Look. I think the WPF forming was a good thing for the UPC - and I don't mean "good riddance" - just that there is a difference in direction. I don't wish to defend the ultra cons be they in or out of the UPC.

I believe the UPC is moving in the right direction in many areas. We have more progressive pastors than ever before. More are joining the UPC then are leaving. OK - so it may not be much, but that is far better than most mainstream denominations can say.

I think very, very few are anonymously planning their escapes from legalism.

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 08:37 PM

To be fair, we need to mention that we have one go back to UPC, then leave, then go back, then leave.

Just saying.

Yeah. And we have one with a doctorate from Regents who is doin time...

Baron1710

09-12-2009, 08:38 PM

I would not argue that - a significant number even appear to have embraced homosexuality...

oops!

Look. I think the WPF forming was a good thing for the UPC - and I don't mean "good riddance" - just that there is a difference in direction. I don't wish to defend the ultra cons be they in or out of the UPC.

I believe the UPC is moving in the right direction in many areas. We have more progressive pastors than ever before. More are joining the UPC then are leaving. OK - so it may not be much, but that is far better than most mainstream denominations can say.

I think very, very few are anonymously planning their escapes from legalism.

I agree it has been good for the UPC, however events like youth congress and reverting back to a business dress for people on the platform was a step backwards. It also shows the Wrestling Federation still has influence on the UPC.

Pro31:28

09-12-2009, 08:39 PM

Yeah. And we have one with a doctorate from Regents who is doin time...

HAHAHA! I was just thinking about him today!

But on a more serious note Hoovie, why do you think that people lurk or want to stay anonymous here?

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 08:42 PM

I agree it has been good for the UPC, however events like youth congress and reverting back to a business dress for people on the platform was a step backwards. It also shows the Wrestling Federation still has influence on the UPC.

Does it really mean anything at all other than politics? Naturally there will be a temporary move to pacify the conservative elements who remained after the departure... :thumbsup

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 08:49 PM

HAHAHA! I was just thinking about him today!

But on a more serious note Hoovie, why do you think that people lurk or want to stay anonymous here?

There are still many folks who simply are anonymous when online period. That can range from concerns socially to fear of criminal activity and online predators like the "doctor".

One reason I have been online anonymously is because it's more fun to engage when there aren't the preconceived notions of the guy who used to be Amish or the villain from ABC's Wife Swap. :ursofunny

Baron1710

09-12-2009, 08:49 PM

Does it really mean anything at all other than politics? Naturally there will be a temporary move to pacify the conservative elements who remained after the departure... :thumbsup

It means the Gospel is still secondary to giving young people a platform to minister to their own. It means legalism still plays a major roll in UPC thought and action. It may be a small thing, but it is a symptom of bigger problems and is why they continue to bleed their youth.

Pro31:28

09-12-2009, 08:50 PM

In my original paragraph, I stated...

... Thankfully, in this instance, there are “gatekeepers” (administrators) who maintain a form of decorum and demand truth in what people say. When someone comes on looking to start a fight or promote gossip, they are quickly warned and then locked out. Isaiah 1:18a says, “Come now, let us reason together,’ says the LORD” (NIV). These people are looking to think through many major issues in their life and with their relationship with God, it is a healthy way to reason for people who otherwise would not be able to seek this information."

And here it is-

Is this statement true and how do you know?

Another good question.

How is this a fact?

LOL! Well... it assumes they are not still anonymous lurkers does it not? They have shared their stories with us here otherwise one can claim 100% of the lurkers are Satan worshipers.

I am thankful that we are held accountable by admin on here, otherwise the "regents" doctorate-holding, preaching, members who are dying would take over the forum :ursofunny

Hoovie

09-12-2009, 08:58 PM

It means the Gospel is still secondary to giving young people a platform to minister to their own. It means legalism still plays a major roll in UPC thought and action. It may be a small thing, but it is a symptom of bigger problems and is why they continue to bleed their youth.

See I don't equate the two. Requiring biz attire on platform simply does not mean a church (much less an entire organization) is legalistic.

This is a battle that pretty much all denoms are fighting. There are plenty of "non-standard" traditionalist churches who resist contemporary worship and attire. This is not a UPC or even Pentecostal debate.

Cindy

09-12-2009, 09:03 PM

LOL!

I tend to agree with what Proverbs has stated. Also, she's only acknowledging UPC because it's her background - - it was her paper and she wrote it from HER view.

I didn't take what she wrote to be against UPC at all which it seems some are. She just stated "in her experience" which is what we all do.

I agree, her view of AFF is what she stated. Others views may not be the same as hers.

Baron1710

09-12-2009, 09:06 PM

See I don't equate the two. Requiring biz attire on platform simply does not mean a church (much less an entire organization) is legalistic.

This is a battle that pretty much all denoms are fighting. There are plenty of "non-standard" traditionalist churches who resist contemporary worship and attire. This is not a UPC or even Pentecostal debate.

Two years ago they relaxed the standards, and now this response. It is a huge factor in why people are leaving the UPC. Ask yourself why the children of almost every teacher at CLC, when I was there, are still in ministry but NOT in the UPC. I won't name names but it is a fact.

It is a real problem the UPC has shackled itself to ideas that are strangling it. The dress code for the most recent youth congress is evidence of it.

Cindy

09-12-2009, 09:09 PM

In my original paragraph, I stated...

And here it is-

I am thankful that we are held accountable by admin on here, otherwise the "regents" doctorate-holding, preaching, members who are dying would take over the forum :ursofunny

:ursofunny

Aquila

09-12-2009, 09:24 PM

I recently wrote a paper for a Rhetorical Communication course, and the paper was on digital communication. One of the topics was on "online personas". I included a paragraph about AFF in the paper and gave a brief description of the forum.
So here is my question- if you were describing AFF to someone how would you describe it?

A free thinking, moderate forum of Apostolic Pentecostal Christians.

missourimary

09-12-2009, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Pro31:28 I recently wrote a paper for a Rhetorical Communication course, and the paper was on digital communication. One of the topics was on "online personas". I included a paragraph about AFF in the paper and gave a brief description of the forum. So here is my question- if you were describing AFF to someone how would you describe it?

A forum or discussion board where individuals can discuss a wide variety of topics in an apostolic/pentecostal environment by posting and answering posts on a message board (not by chat or real time).

As for the question of who is on here lurking to leave (or why se are here) :
I post anonymously. I'm not looking to leave a oneness belief system but do question some local teachings. I came here to reconnect with a larger variety of oneness Pentecostals, find out what different groups and individuals are moving toward, get dates for meetings that are never announced in my limited fellowship and get some much needed anonymous time. Yes, I need a place where no one will report me for asking questions nor will misinterpret and report those misconceptions as gospel. Definitely somewhere that 'reprove and rebuke' is balanced with 'exhort' as well as seasoned well with love. I needed a break from looking over my shoulder. I also needed a time and place to express my own thoughts in writing so that I could see where I do and do not stand in relation to my very cons church.

One original intent was to be able to leave my current situation, but not my basic beliefs.

All and more have been met thru this forum.

Pressing-On

09-13-2009, 06:51 AM

I agree it has been good for the UPC, however events like youth congress and reverting back to a business dress for people on the platform was a step backwards. It also shows the Wrestling Federation still has influence on the UPC.
Approx 17,0000 in attendance was a step back? Okay.......lol

Baron1710

09-13-2009, 07:02 AM

Approx 17,0000 in attendance was a step back? Okay.......lol

It isn't how many that showed up that I was taking issue with it was requiring young people to dress up for an event that is about them because they are too afraid of the label that comes with some freedom. You tell a kid what to do everyday of his life and then when he turns 18 just turn him out. They have got to learn to give the kids the room to figure some things out for themselves while they are still at "home." They will never learn to be leaders as long as they are dictated to on every aspect of their life...they will only learn to be little dictators.

*AQuietPlace*

09-13-2009, 07:08 AM

You tell a kid what to do everyday of his life and then when he turns 18 just turn him out. They have got to learn to give the kids the room to figure some things out for themselves while they are still at "home."

Thank you, Baron, I needed to hear that. It confirmed what I've been feeling about a situation in my own life.

SOUNWORTHY

09-13-2009, 07:08 AM

I said the UPC because that was my affiliation, and all of the people who I know personally (meaning in person, not those I have met through AFF) were through the UPC. I should have said Oneness.

I did not say that the UPC IS legalistic (although that could be argued depending on the church), I said it leaned that way, which I think it does, at least in my experience.

What is your experience? This sounds like another, let's blast UPCI post.

Pressing-On

09-13-2009, 07:24 AM

It isn't how many that showed up that I was taking issue with it was requiring young people to dress up for an event that is about them because they are too afraid of the label that comes with some freedom. You tell a kid what to do everyday of his life and then when he turns 18 just turn him out. They have got to learn to give the kids the room to figure some things out for themselves while they are still at "home." They will never learn to be leaders as long as they are dictated to on every aspect of their life...they will only learn to be little dictators.

I was "wild as a March hare" after turning 18 and leaving a structured Catholic environment. How God was able to reach me later is that I did learn something about the love of Jesus Christ.

My daughter did the same thing, leaving a structured UPC environment. She is now back in and has stronger convictions than she has ever had. She said it's not a party line, but something God has done in her heart.

I say we need to leave it alone and let everyone work it out for themselves. I'm not going to rail on anyone. I'm not perfect and that makes me not have the right.

You can't look in my daughter's face and tell her she is wrong. It's not your right. It's between her and God. We will stand before God someday and be judged by our words toward interfering in the personal direction of any life.

From my experience, if people say they followed a legalist rule that skewed their image of God, I will say that they are confessing they never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the first place. He is above every organization and design of man. He is the one that leads us no matter where we stand.

Baron1710

09-13-2009, 07:34 AM

I was "wild as a March hare" after turning 18 and leaving a structured Catholic environment. How God was able to reach me later is that I did learn something about the love of Jesus Christ.

My daughter did the same thing, leaving a structured UPC environment. She is now back in and has stronger convictions than she has ever had. She said it's not a party line, but something God has done in her heart.

I say we need to leave it alone and let everyone work it out for themselves. I'm not going to rail on anyone. I'm not perfect and that makes me not have the right.

You can't look in my daughter's face and tell her she is wrong. It's not your right. It's between her and God. We will stand before God someday and be judged by our words toward interfering in the personal direction of any life.

From my experience, if people say they followed a legalist rule that skewed their image of God, I will say that they are confessing they never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the first place. He is above every organization and design of man. He is the one that leads us no matter where we stand.

I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing. It sounds like your making my point in the beginning. Is that what we really want is for our children to go wild then come back to the structured life of the UPCI? I would prefer to give my child some space to make some mistakes and learn from them now, while I can take the reins if necessary, rather than throwing him to the world and having him return to God with a broken marriage and kids that he sees every other weekend.

Pro31:28

09-13-2009, 07:35 AM

What is your experience? This sounds like another, let's blast UPCI post.

Just because i do not currently attend a UPC church, does not mean that I still do not retain close ties. I have many friends and family that are current members of both UPCI and WPF. I do not feel it is necessary to share my experience again, as I have before.

I retain no ill will toward the UPC church, that is in fact, where I met my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. But I know that in my time there, especially toward the end, (in the area that I was in) there was a great focus on hemlines and lipgloss, when there should have been a greater focus on Christ.

Dictionary.com defines legalism as:
le⋅gal⋅ism [lee-guh-liz-uhm]
–noun
1. strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, esp. to the letter rather than the spirit.
2. Theology.
a. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
b. the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

I guess you could say that I was part of the collateral damage created by the '92 issues.

If you preach Christ and Him crucified, there is no need to tell people how to dress.

I was not intending to blast the UPC, and because I knew that some would perceive it that way, I almost didn't post it. I meant no offense.

*AQuietPlace*

09-13-2009, 07:46 AM

From my experience, if people say they followed a legalist rule that skewed their image of God, I will say that they are confessing they never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the first place. He is above every organization and design of man. He is the one that leads us no matter where we stand.

This is true. It's also an oversimplification. Legalism places a lot of guilt on people, and can make you feel like you're not spiritual enough to hear from God. Plus a lot of other things that I don't have time to go into right now.

Pressing-On

09-13-2009, 07:50 AM

I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing. It sounds like your making my point in the beginning. Is that what we really want is for our children to go wild then come back to the structured life of the UPCI? I would prefer to give my child some space to make some mistakes and learn from them now, while I can take the reins if necessary, rather than throwing him to the world and having him return to God with a broken marriage and kids that he sees every other weekend.

My point is that children, if they want to, are going to go wild regardless of what organization or home structure they were brought up in.

It's not just the Bible College kids going wild. I've partied at UT and Tx State University in San Marcos, Texas with lots of wild kids from every religious group - Baptist, Catholic, etc. We were all honor students from good, decent homes.

I could tell a whole lot of stories from my last 24 years in the UPC. What I learned is that God sees my tears, hears my prayers and tells me which way to walk. If He tells me to stay where I am and that He's building a church, then I take offense to anyone railing against the UPC when none of us are God and we do not see the big picture.

Anyway, this type of thread is definitely not my strong suit. I've been through too much to agree that we should rail against the ways of any people who have chosen to walk the way they do. I believe it's meddling, interfering and just plain wrong. We can pull the Berean card all day long, it doesn't make it right.

Oh, so how to I define AFF? The only point I will address - we are allowed to speak our minds. lol

Pressing-On

09-13-2009, 07:58 AM

This is true. It's also an oversimplification. Legalism places a lot of guilt on people, and can make you feel like you're not spiritual enough to hear from God. Plus a lot of other things that I don't have time to go into right now.

I guess from my perspective - as a new convert - the first time I heard the pastor teach about "touch not thine anointed" - God put the thought in my mind to find out what that actually meant.

When we were called "peculiar" on the lines of Webster - strange. He impressed on me to look up the word "peculiar" in the Greek.

My first lesson as a Christian - study for yourself, be patient, I will take care of you, I will lead you, I will talk to you, I will make a way of escape in every situation. I would love to tell the glorious ways God did that in my life - over and over and over again. Every hard situation, every slight of man - God came to me. Sometimes He moved me but there were more times He moved the man. God is very awesome, very sensitive and very protective.

So, again, from my perspective, there are no excuses for whining about anything. Find out where He wants you to stand and STAND.

Came back to add, AQP, these are my thoughts and are not directed at you. :friend

*AQuietPlace*

09-13-2009, 08:09 AM

I'm off to church now, but when I get back I'll add my point of view. ;)

I will say, now, that you are right, but it has taken me many years to get to that place.

crakjak

09-13-2009, 09:45 AM

rgcraig

09-13-2009, 10:06 AM

I was "wild as a March hare" after turning 18 and leaving a structured Catholic environment. How God was able to reach me later is that I did learn something about the love of Jesus Christ.

My daughter did the same thing, leaving a structured UPC environment. She is now back in and has stronger convictions than she has ever had. She said it's not a party line, but something God has done in her heart.

I say we need to leave it alone and let everyone work it out for themselves. I'm not going to rail on anyone. I'm not perfect and that makes me not have the right.

You can't look in my daughter's face and tell her she is wrong. It's not your right. It's between her and God. We will stand before God someday and be judged by our words toward interfering in the personal direction of any life.

From my experience, if people say they followed a legalist rule that skewed their image of God, I will say that they are confessing they never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the first place. He is above every organization and design of man. He is the one that leads us no matter where we stand.

:thumbsup

Completely AGREE!!!!!!

And in my experience, we were taught how to look and the rules to follow to make it to heaven. I wasn't given tools to live a holy life by learning for myself what God wanted from me personally. I believe this is the fall of all organizations.

Pressing-On

09-13-2009, 10:18 AM

:thumbsup

Completely AGREE!!!!!!

And in my experience, we were taught how to look and the rules to follow to make it to heaven. I wasn't given tools to live a holy life by learning for myself what God wanted from me personally. I believe this is the fall of all organizations.
You see, that is where our personal walk and accountability with God is supposed to come in. Perhaps I've always been a rebel. :D

I remember a preacher's wife saying she wanted to make a "clone" out of me. LOL! I was driving to work the next morning, tears streaming down my face - "God, I'm not trying to be rebellious or rude, but I don't WANT to be like HER!" :tissue :toofunny

Hoovie

09-13-2009, 02:20 PM

Hoovie!!!

Of course the UPC is legalistic, just because you accept the mode of dress, etc.(which is very liberal from a Amish point of view) doesn't make it any less legalistic.

It is legalistic because there are consequences for not following the prescribed doctrines and standards. Even shunning in many places.
.

But as Jason is exploring in another thread, every denom pretty much has their own set of minimum "standards" or whatever you wish to call them.

Legalism says one cannot please God unless you please me first - and will judge all who don't bow. It could be about dress, but it need not be. I know some "non standards" churches that are legalistic IMO.

For example; Some Trinitarians have a rather legalistic approach to baptism and the Eucharist.

I don't believe all Amish and Old Order Mennonites are legalistic nor are all or most in the UPC.

The real acid test is whether one judges the eternal destination of those Christians who do things differently than our own custom. I am not at all sure that conservative Christians have a higher incidence of legalism than their more liberal counterparts.

Cindy

09-13-2009, 02:32 PM

One man's freedom, might be another man's bondage. But in the context of the post, it is about someone's viewpoint, not necessarily the truth.

*AQuietPlace*

09-13-2009, 03:38 PM

I'm off to church now, but when I get back I'll add my point of view. ;)
.
Well, I'm back, but I've lost my train of thought. :D

Pressing-On

09-13-2009, 03:45 PM

Well, I'm back, but I've lost my train of thought. :D

:toofunny :toofunny

Girl, we ARE RELATED!!!!! :toofunny

Pro31:28

09-13-2009, 05:10 PM

But as Jason is exploring in another thread, every denom pretty much has their own set of minimum "standards" or whatever you wish to call them.

Ok, Hoovie, I read this too quickly and thought you wrote, "demon".... :ursofunny:ursofunny

pelathais

09-13-2009, 06:04 PM

But as Jason is exploring in another thread, every denom pretty much has their own set of minimum "standards" or whatever you wish to call them.

Legalism says one cannot please God unless you please me first - and will judge all who don't bow. It could be about dress, but it need not be. I know some "non standards" churches that are legalistic IMO.

For example; Some Trinitarians have a rather legalistic approach to baptism and the Eucharist.

I don't believe all Amish and Old Order Mennonites are legalistic nor are all or most in the UPC.

The real acid test is whether one judges the eternal destination of those Christians who do things differently than our own custom. I am not at all sure that conservative Christians have a higher incidence of legalism than their more liberal counterparts.
My take is that this the essence of "legalism." It is the idea that you the Christian believer must "earn" their salvation as opposed to receiving it as a free gift.

"Legalism" comes from the practice of many first century Christians who said believers had to obey the LAW of Moses in order to obtain a right standing with God. They said that "The Law" was the way to salvation in addition to Jesus Christ.

I've never known Amish who observed "The Law" of Moses, so technically they could not be true "legalist" no matter strict their other rules or customs may have been. On the other hand, I did meet some kind Mennonite folks who were actually quite "evangelical" about the "free gift" of salvation even though they also observed the traditional Amish lifestyle, at what appeared to me to have been the traditional way.

Hoovie

09-13-2009, 06:33 PM

Ok, Hoovie, I read this too quickly and though you wrote, "demon".... :ursofunny:ursofunny

LOL! Our eyes can play those tricks - or perhaps it's a freudian thing... For I minute I thought you wrote, " though you wrote, demon..." :)

Pro31:28

09-13-2009, 07:07 PM

LOL! Our eyes can play those tricks - or perhaps it's a freudian thing... For I minute I thought you wrote, " though you wrote, demon..." :)

Ooops, I did :) But i didn't mean it THAT way...

*AQuietPlace*

09-13-2009, 09:37 PM

:toofunny :toofunny

Girl, we ARE RELATED!!!!! :toofunny
Maybe my train crashed with your train!!

Pressing-On

09-14-2009, 06:23 AM

Maybe my train crashed with your train!!

Probably so!!! LOL!

Irreligious

09-14-2009, 08:28 AM

Cindy

09-14-2009, 12:46 PM

I would define AFF as a place where people can come and gripe and complain about everybody and everything,that we think is wrong with religion and politics. Nobody's apostolic or right, except me of course. And as long as we don't get personal it's okay.

Pro31:28

09-14-2009, 01:50 PM

I can't imagine why someone would be offended at what you've written. It seems to me to be factual. Well said. :D

MOW, Thanks for the kind words, but I think that the preceding posts prove my fears... :blush

1Corinth2v4

09-14-2009, 03:29 PM

I can't imagine why someone would be offended at what you've written. It seems to me to be factual. Well said. :D

Why was the part about admins playing favoritism left out? :D

MarcBee

09-14-2009, 11:50 PM

I disagree that most are connected to the UPC or the characterization that the UPC is legalistic.

:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny

I've demoted myself to "Lurker" status, but I had to laugh my fanny off at this one.

The first step in any recovery program is for one to admit that one has a problem. :ursofunny

Enjoy your laugh, but legalism is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. As long as James 2, esp. 2:24 exists and has to be reconciled with Romans 4, there will always be suspicion cast around among Christian belief (and custom) systems as to who is REALLY trying to "work" their way to heaven.

For example, Martin Luther believed the book of James did not belong in the Bible due to its take on works. Nor has the thicket of relations between faith and works been settled today, for example, among AFF brethren. Of course, everyone here can probably explain what makes personal sense, using lotsa, lotsa Bible.

:usa

Pro31:28

09-15-2009, 03:12 PM

Why was the part about admins playing favoritism left out? :D

I don't feel that they are playing favorites at all, in fact there have been several on this post with differing opinions. :gotcha

Baron1710

09-17-2009, 11:13 AM

KWSS1976

09-17-2009, 11:14 AM

Lol rotf :ursofunny

Pro31:28

09-17-2009, 11:24 AM

A place where you can send people to hell, for anything you want if you are the pastor. Beards, sleeve length, anything. I am going to open a church and preach against any hat that isn't a 49er hat. You better not wear anything other than that on your head or you will go to hell and God will back me up on it because I am the boss.

But the Chargers have the lightening bolt- wouldn't that be a holy symbol? Or the Saints? How can you scripturally back up your support of the Forty-Niners?

KWSS1976

09-17-2009, 11:28 AM

O Pro 31:28 it not the Saints it's the Cant's I live in Louisiana so I know..LOL

As in they Cant's win a game...

Rhoni

09-17-2009, 12:17 PM

A safe place to express your views. You know that someone is likely to disagree with you and offer you debate - but it is civil and you don't have to worry about slamming or flamming.

LOL. There is nothing safe about posting on AFF...unless you really think you are incognito:ursofunny:ursofunny I agree with you Hope Preacher!

Rhoni

09-17-2009, 12:19 PM

AFF takes on the flavor of the owners similar to how church leaders influence a congregation, or a CEO influences the company.

I think there is less hormonal meltdowns on this forum than the previous one because it is moderated a bit better and more balanced.

Of course, the emotional meltdowns proved more interesting than some of the same 'ole, same 'ole threads:)

My humble opinion of course...
The hormonal meltdown Queen!

rgcraig

09-17-2009, 12:21 PM

AFF takes on the flavor of the owners similar to hoep church leaders influence a congregation, or a CEO influences the company.

I think there is less hormonal meltdowns on this forum than the previous one because it is moderated a bit better and more balanced.

Of course, the emotional meltdowns proved more interesting than some of the same 'ole, same 'ole threads:)

My humble opinion of course...
The hormonal meltdown Queen!Interesting since the ones that left were male! :ursofunny