Purgatory

[easter]

I wonder why the Catholic religion believes in purgatory?Are the Catholics the only ones who believe in such a place?Is there scripture in the word that validates purgatory, a place where people who are not quiet bad enough for hell but not good enough for Heaven?
I would appreciate any comments on this subject of Purgatory and if this place is real.

[Pressing-On]

Basically, it's just a practice of praying for the dead. It's interesting that it was probably taken from Judaism which was an ancient practice and, I believe, it was also an ancient Buddhist custom.

[Aquila]

I wonder why the Catholic religion believes in purgatory?Are the Catholics the only ones who believe in such a place?Is there scripture in the word that validates purgatory, a place where people who are not quiet bad enough for hell but not good enough for Heaven?
I would appreciate any comments on this subject of Purgatory and if this place is real.

Purgatory was the result of the enfluence from the Greek interpretation of Scripture. The Latin Catholics believed in eternal torments yet the Greek language appears to indicate or at least allow for a type of purgatory or purification. Study the theological term "kolasis" (Gk.) and how it was used by Christ.

[mfblume]

Purgatory is in the apocrypha.

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

[easter]

Thanks everyone for the replies and links.
Is purgatory sound doctrine?

[Aquila]

Thanks everyone for the replies and links.
Is purgatory sound doctrine?

Personally (and I only speak for myself), purgatory isn't all that biblically based. However, the notion of "kolasis" (Gk.; Matthew 25:46), as can be defined by a "pruning" or "refinement" of the wicked (Universal Reconciliationism) is a far more biblically sustainable position.

Ultimately we must leave God's dealings with the unsaved entirely in His hands, firmly believing that He is both just and merciful.

[mfblume]

Thanks everyone for the replies and links.
Is purgatory sound doctrine?

The Apocrypha was rejected from the KJV because of things like purgatory. I do not believe it is sound doctrine whatsoever.

[Deo Gratias]

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Not forgiven in this age or the age to come.

What could be forgiven in heaven? or hell? Yet Jesus is implying that some sort of post-death forgiveness can occur for some sins, because He takes care to point out that it won't happen for the sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 3:10-15 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

2 Tim 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, 17 but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me 18 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

Onesiphorus is almost certainly dead, else why would Paul ask the Lord to grant mercy to his family apart from him? Yet Paul also asks the Lord to grant Onesiphorus mercy. If there is no Purgatory, why does Paul ask this? Those in hell cannot be helped by prayers and those in heaven have no need of prayers.

1 Pet 3:18-19 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Mt 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

In other words there is a temporal debt attached to all sin and if we haven't fully expiated that debt in this life we must do so in purgatory.

Lk 16:19-31 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"

God is love. Hell is being completely cut off from God. Hell is being completely cut off from love. In Hell, one can feel no love for anyone, not even one's self - it is total exclusion from love, from God. The rich man is clearly not in heaven, but he just as clearly feels compassion for his brothers and is concerned about their well-being, so he is clearly not in hell. Where is he? Incidentally, this is the only parable in which Christ gives one of the persons in the story a name - Lazarus. For this reason, many Christian commentators think this is not a parable, but a description of an historical event known to Christ.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. {This is very sobering. Two thirds of men will be eternally lost. It also agrees perfectly with the parable of the sower. In the parable of the sower only one third of the seed fell in rich soil and producted fruit.}

Wisdom 3:5-6 - Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.

As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.

Sirah 2:5 For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Since nothing unclean can enter heaven that means that we must be completely cleansed from all faults and attachments to venial sin.

The doctrine of purgatory is not something that the Church made up, it is firmly rooted in sacred scripture. I've only posted a few scripture references for purgatory but there are many more. It is an article of faith that must be believed by all Catholics. Before the Protestant reformation all Christians believed in purgatory. Also Eastern Orthodox
Christians (while they don't believe in purgatory) believe that after death a soul in a state of grace must go through a purification process before being admitted into heaven. Since very few of us depart from this life perfect, most of us will end up having to go through purgatory.

[mfblume]

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Not forgiven in this age or the age to come.

What could be forgiven in heaven? or hell? Yet Jesus is implying that some sort of post-death forgiveness can occur for some sins, because He takes care to point out that it won't happen for the sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit.

Purgatory is non-existent. There is not one plain statement Jesus ever made to the effect that a purgatory will occur for people, and to take passages like you are taking makes purgatory something IMPLIED AT BEST, but NEVER stated in plain terms in the bible. Would such an important doctrine be derived from VAGUENESS of IMPLICATIONS and not be plainly stated? Of course not.

Not being forgiven in the age to come is not speaking of a PLACE to come, but AN AGE. It implies everyone will experience THIS AGE. How can that imply purgatory, since not everyone will go through purgatory in the minds of the Catholic teaching? The blood of Jesus alone cleanses from all sin, and we cannot add to that some idea of purgatory to do the work through suffering. Jesus suffered for us in regards to sin. We need not suffer for sin in one minuscule manner. We suffer for other reasons, but never for sin. Jesus spoke those words before the cross. THE AGE TO COME was the age of the CHURCH. neither before the church age started nor during the church age would that sin be forgiven. It is not speaking about the afterlife. More later.

[mfblume]

1 Cor 3:10-15 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

The fire is not a purgatory fire, but the judgment of God at the great white throne. revelation 20. This does not say the person suffers a literal fiery torment until something is purged out of him, but the WORKS are burnt up. That is a far cry from the person suffering purgatory.

2 Tim 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, 17 but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me 18 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

Onesiphorus is almost certainly dead, else why would Paul ask the Lord to grant mercy to his family apart from him? Yet Paul also asks the Lord to grant Onesiphorus mercy. If there is no Purgatory, why does Paul ask this? Those in hell cannot be helped by prayers and those in heaven have no need of prayers.


We are not meant to look in scripture for a belief we already have. See my motto below. We are meant to allow the scriptures to teach us what to believe. Purgatory is not found in scriptures. One has to LOOK FOR IT as you did in this passage, for no one would get purgatory from this passage without having heard of it before and looking for it in this passage. But unless one rejects the doctrine of Tradition and Magisterium of the RC Church, one will not have that paradigm, anyway. RC doctrine has a whole load of cans of worms to deal with since the RC church thinks so differently about the basis for truth. They take CHrist's words about the Spirit of truth coming to guide us into all truth as the centuries after the bible was completed where RC priests claim new doctrines the bible never spoke about, like Trinity understanding. In reality, Jesus meant the days after the Acts 2 Spirit baptism when the apostles wrote the epistles by the revelation of the Spirit.

At any rate, he Lord granting Onesiphorus mercy on THAT DAY simply refers to what has been done in his lifetime being judged at the final judgment. Why would this involve a purgatory? Again, one has to have a predetermined view of purgatory in order to get the slightest hint of one from this passage. And that is extremely backward exegesis. Paul simply stated that he hoped Onesiphorus' actions would get a great reward on judgment. Moses prayed for God to be easier on the Israelites in His judgment, and God was! This did not demand a purgatory.


1 Pet 3:18-19 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison. This is commonly sensationalized to think of Jesus preaching to dead people. It is actually speaking of the SPIRIT OF CHRIST UPON NOAH when Noah preached. It is not Jesus, Himself, but His anointing power on Noah to appeal to the sinners while alive in Nopah's day.



Mt 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

In other words there is a temporal debt attached to all sin and if we haven't fully expiated that debt in this life we must do so in purgatory.


WHAT??? lol. You get purgatory and expiation for sin in the afterlife from this verse? Again, this is an extreme stretch to say the least. It is simply saying one will never be released from hell's judgment. Just as in Matt 18, the one who refused to forgive his brother for pittance in comparison to the master's forgiveness of a huge debt, that one will never be able to pay the debt and be never released therefore, from punishment. It is not saying payment is possible as in a purgatory manner of payment that makes us suffer for sins when only Jesus can suffer for our sins, or else we be lost eternally..
Lk 16:19-31 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"

God is love. Hell is being completely cut off from God. Hell is being completely cut off from love. In Hell, one can feel no love for anyone, not even one's self - it is total exclusion from love, from God. The rich man is clearly not in heaven, but he just as clearly feels compassion for his brothers and is concerned about their well-being, so he is clearly not in hell. Where is he? Incidentally, this is the only parable in which Christ gives one of the persons in the story a name - Lazarus. For this reason, many Christian commentators think this is not a parable, but a description of an historical event known to Christ.

This is extreme grand assumption. Where does the bible say one cannot feel remorse in hell? Your argument here is based totally upon the assumption, and not scripture, that one cannot feel remorse in hell.



Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. {This is very sobering. Two thirds of men will be eternally lost. It also agrees perfectly with the parable of the sower. In the parable of the sower only one third of the seed fell in rich soil and producted fruit.}

Again, grand assumption. who said this is after death when people are refined? Not the text.



Wisdom 3:5-6 - Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.

This is from the Apocrypha and is not inspired words of God, and never did Jesus nor any NT writer ever wrote from the apocrypha. We cannot gain any spiritual truth from the apocrypha.



As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.

Sirah 2:5 For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.


...More apocryphal error.


Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Since nothing unclean can enter heaven that means that we must be completely cleansed from all faults and attachments to venial sin.

...That is, before we die.



The doctrine of purgatory is not something that the Church made up, it is firmly rooted in sacred scripture.

It is absolutely NOT rooted in sacred scripture.

One would never come from the scriptures with any understanding of purgatory without having been taught it from the RC church dogmas.

[Praxeas]

I wonder why the Catholic religion believes in purgatory?Are the Catholics the only ones who believe in such a place?Is there scripture in the word that validates purgatory, a place where people who are not quiet bad enough for hell but not good enough for Heaven?
I would appreciate any comments on this subject of Purgatory and if this place is real.
Purgatory is not found in scriptures. It was invented as a way to scare people and raise money

[Praxeas]

Purgatory was the result of the enfluence from the Greek interpretation of Scripture. The Latin Catholics believed in eternal torments yet the Greek language appears to indicate or at least allow for a type of purgatory or purification. Study the theological term "kolasis" (Gk.) and how it was used by Christ.
If you study the term IN context you will see the intent is to cut off or remove the evil ones from the good ones. It was always about pruning creation.

When a tree or bush is pruned you remove parts that make it "ugly"

Notice the context begins with a separation of the virgins that were ready and those that were not

Mat 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
Mat 25:3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
Mat 25:4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept.
Mat 25:6 But at midnight there was a cry, 'Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, 'Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.'
Mat 25:10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, lord, open to us.'
Mat 25:12 But he answered, 'Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.'

and continues on

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

and on

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angel
Concluded by
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Notice the same word for ETERNAL is used with regards to punishment (kolasis) and Life

Read the context, it does not sound like these people are sent somewhere, purified, then returned. There is never a mention of them again

[mfblume]

Purgatory is not found in scriptures. It was invented as a way to scare people and raise money

Exactly. Like one ex-nun used to say, the only purgatory is in the priest's wallet.

[Praxeas]

I just realized that if people got sent BACK to purgatory and then came out again name it regurgitory :heeheehee

[Deo Gratias]

Whatever.

[mfblume]

Whatever.

Come on, now. Think of it. Who would read the gospels and come out believing in purgatory without thinking the RCC heard from God after the bible was completed and promoted purgatory?

[Praxeas]

lol

[Deo Gratias]

I'm not going to argue with anyone. Personally I believe purgatory is real. Purgatory is perfectly reasonable. Since all sin is an outrage against God, how is it unjust that there should be a temporal debt attached. How is it any different that our own court of law? Say a person willfully commits murder but then later on deeply regrets the evil deed and sincerely repents and feels intense sorrow. Should the person be excused from paying the penalty of having to do time in jail just because he's sorry? It's the same with God, yes He forgives completely all those who have genuine contrition but it still doesn't negate that fact that His holiness demands that the crime of sin be paid for. There are examples in scripture. 2 Samual chapter 11 being one. For David's crime of adultery and murder (even though he confessed and was truly sorry) he had to suffer severe temporal punishment, namely the death of his son. Moses is another example, in Numbers 20:8-12. Because rather than speaking to the rock as God had commanded, he struck it twice. For the sin of dishonoring God in the sight of His people, he was denied ever entering the promised land.

So you see if purgatory did not exist the only other alternative would be hell. Purgatory is really a great mercy. On top of this great mercy, it doesn't even matter to God who pays the debt. That is why we can offer up our prayers and suffrages (indulgenced prayers and acts) for the relief of the poor suffering souls in purgatory. The most efficacious of these prayers being the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

[Deo Gratias]

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3302

How To Argue the Existence of Purgatory


1. What good are prayers for the dead? If a person is in heaven, he doesn’t need prayers, and if he is damned, then no amount of prayers will help him.

Catholics and Protestants can agree on two things regarding the afterlife: Souls in hell will not grow close to God, and those in heaven cannot draw any nearer to him. If purgatory does not exist, prayers for the dead are useless. But if a state of purification exists for some after death, and if prayers can help others in their process of sanctification in this life (Job 1:5: 1 Thess. 5:23), it seems reasonable that prayers would be beneficial to those who are being sanctified after this life. This narrows down the essential question: Does purgatory exist?

If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after ones death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God's favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.

Paul mentions this in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15: "Each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work, which any man has built on the foundation, survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Paul's thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner's fire and fuller's soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. Fuller's soap removed stains from clothing. A refiners fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God's love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.

2. The only reason the Catholic Church invented this unbiblical idea of purgatory is to make money off the faithful who think that they can save their unrepentant deceased relatives by paying for Masses.

Does the Church amass wealth off of the doctrine of purgatory? The average Mass stipend (which is optional) is around five dollars. Say a parish had two daily Masses offered for the dead, it would amount to 70 dollars a week. Considering that the five-dollar stipend typically goes to pay for the church's electricity, maintenance, furnishings, salaries, Mass wine and bread, etc., it is apparent how silly this objection about "wealth" is.

Can Masses said after a person's death save his soul? No. Purgatory is only for those who have repented and have died in God's grace but still have some attachment to sin. While the Church cannot judge souls, we can be certain that if a person dies in a state of mortal sin without asking God's forgiveness, purgatory does not await him as if it were a second chance.

3. Weren't prayers for the dead an invention of the medieval Church?

Prayers for the dead are not only older than the Middle Ages, they predate Christianity. In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee and his companions pray for the souls of departed soldiers: "It was a holy and pious thought. Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc. 12:45). While Protestants do not accept this as an inspired book, it is worthwhile to point out that even today Jews have a prayer called the Mourner's Kaddish that is offered for the purification of the deceased.

This practice of praying for the dead is also recorded throughout ancient Christian documents, such as the Acts of Paul and Thecla, and in the writings of Perpetua, Tertullian, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius of Salamis, John Chrysostom, and Augustine. Since all of these men wrote between A.D. 160 and 421, prayers for the souls in purgatory can hardly be considered a medieval invention. On the contrary, refusing to pray for the dead is a novel idea in light of historic Judaism and Christianity.

4. The idea of souls needing prayers in purgatory seems so contrary to the gospel that no Bible-believing Christian could believe it.

Actually, since roughly 50 percent of all Christians are Catholics and 25 percent are Orthodox, about three-quarters of all Christians believe it. Certain Protestants, such as C.S. Lewis, have also held to the truth of the doctrine. In his Letters to Malcom, he said, "Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

"I believe in purgatory… Our souls demand purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'with submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleansed first.' 'It may hurt, you know'—'Even so, sir.'"

5. But purgatory implies that Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient, that he didn't finish the work of redemption on Calvary. Why do Catholics feel the need to add to it by doing more work in purgatory?

This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ's work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work.

To address the second objection first, purgatory is not a place for those bad Catholics who didn't finish working their way to heaven while on earth. "For by grace you have been saved by faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God's grace, since there is no chance for merit after death, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life. But regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.

Though Christ paid the infinite debt of man's sins 2,000 years ago, the sanctification process in the life each Christian continues. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." According to Scripture, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present (1 Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in the Christian life.

This process often involves suffering, as Paul indicates: "Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross… 'My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" (Heb. 12:1-12).

Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ's sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something "lacking in Christ's afflictions," and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).

6. I can accept that suffering happens to each believer, but Christ paid all punishments for sin. If purgatory is a punishment, then it means Christ left some part of the debt unpaid.

Some Christians maintain that all temporal punishments for sin are taken away if the person has repented. But the Bible indicates that although God takes away the eternal punishment, some temporal punishments may remain.

In the Old Testament, God forgave David, but still took the life of his son (2 Sam. 12:13-14). In the New Testament, Christ reiterates this principle, "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:25-26). It can also be mentioned that women still experience the temporal punishment of birthpangs (Gen. 3:16), although Christ paid the infinite debt of man's original sin (Rom. 5:12—21).

The sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice is not lessened by the fact that God's work of perfecting his children is a process that often involves suffering and even temporal punishment. While "for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Heb 12:11), it is all a part of God’s promise made through Paul, "that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6), even if it should be "as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).

[Deo Gratias]

“Oh! If people only knew what Purgatory is!”

In 1870, Belgium fought as an ally with France against Germany.

In September of that year, Sister Maria Serafina, a Redemptorist nun in Malines, Belgium, was suddenly seized with inexplicable sadness.

Soon after, she received the news that her father had died in that war.

From that day on, Sister Maria repeatedly heard distressing groans and a voice saying, “My dear daughter, have mercy on me!”

Subsequently, she was besieged with torments, which included unbearable headaches. While laying down one day, she saw her father surrounded with flames and immersed in profound sadness.

He was suffering in Purgatory and had received permission from God to beseech prayers from his daughter and relate Purgatory’s suffering to her. Thus he said:

I want you to have Masses, prayers and indulgences said on my behalf. Look how I am immersed in this fire-filled hole! Oh! If people knew what Purgatory is, they would suffer anything to avoid it and alleviate the suffering of souls here. Be very holy, my daughter, and observe the Holy Rule, even in its most insignificant points. Purgatory for religious is a terrible thing!

Sister Maria saw a pit full of flames, spewing black clouds of smoke. Her father was immersed in the pit where he was burning, horribly suffocated and thirsty. Opening his mouth she saw that his tongue was entirely shriveled.

“I am thirsty, my daughter, I am thirsty.”

The next day, her father visited her again saying, “My daughter, it has been a long time since I saw you last.”

“My father, it was just yesterday . . .”

“Oh! It seems like an eternity to me. If I stay in Purgatory three months, it will be an eternity. I was condemned for many years, but, due to Our Lady’s intercession, my sentence was reduced to only a few months.”

The grace of coming to earth was granted to him through his good works during his life and because he had been devoted to Our Lady receiving communion on all her feast days.

During these visions, Sister Maria Serafina asked her father several questions:

“Do souls in Purgatory know who is praying for them, and can they pray for us?”

“Yes, my daughter.”

“Do these souls suffer, knowing that God is offended in their families and in the world?”

“Yes.”

Directed by her confessor and her superior, she continued to question her father:

“Is it true that the sufferings of Purgatory are much greater than all the torments of earth and even of the martyrs?”

“Yes, my daughter, all this is very true.”

Sister Serafina then asked if everyone who belongs to the Scapular Confraternity of Carmel (those who wear the scapular), is freed from Purgatory on the first Saturday after death:

“Yes,” he answered, “but only if they are faithful to the Confraternity’s obligations.”

“Is it true that some souls must stay in Purgatory for as long as five hundred years?”

“Yes. Some are condemned until the end of the world. These souls are very guilty and entirely abandoned.”

“Three main things draw God’s malediction over men: failure to observe the Lord’s Day through work, the very widespread vice of impurity, and blasphemy. Oh my daughter, how these blasphemies provoke the wrath of God!”

For over three months, Sister Serafina and her community prayed and offered penance for the soul of her tormented father who often appeared to her. During the elevation of the Host at Christmas Mass, Sister Maria saw her father shining like a sun with matchless beauty.

“I finished my sentence, and have come to thank you and your sisters for your prayers and pious exercises. I will pray for you in Heaven.”

If Purgatory did not exist to remove the stain of sin from imperfect souls, the only alternative would be Hell. Therefore, Purgatory is a necessary place of expiation.

All personal sin carries two consequences: blame (which, in the case of mortal sin, destroys sanctifying grace and leads to Hell) and temporal punishment warranted by the offense to God. Although Confession frees us from blame and part of the punishment, we must still make additional reparation to God. In this life, this can be done through prayer, Mass intentions, alms, penance and acquiring indulgences. One who dies in a state of venial sin or without sufficient reparation goes to Purgatory.

[Deo Gratias]

con't...

A Place of Expiation

We have seen that Purgatory is a place of expiation.

Souls in Purgatory endure a two-fold suffering: they experience a temporary pain of loss, since they are temporarily deprived of the Beatific Vision and they also feel sensible sufferings, or pain of sense. Unlike the damned in Hell where punishments provoke hatred, those in Purgatory find punishment evokes a profound love of God.

According to Saint Thomas and Saint Augustine, the least pain of Purgatory is worse than the greatest of this life. This is due to the intensity of the desire souls have for God, Whose privation is extremely painful, and the magnitude of sensible pain, which, touching the soul directly, is worse than anything felt by the senses.

Suffering Encouraged by Hope

However rigorous the punishments of Purgatory may be, they are soothed by hope.

Saint Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510), a mystic who suffered Purgatory’s torments on earth explained that one suffers simultaneously unspeakable torment and indescribable happiness.

She described the torment as stemming from a continually consuming interior fire, kindled by separation from God, for Whom the soul is aflame with love. This suffering is so intense that it transforms each instant into a martyrdom of pain.

Although surpassing all earthly suffering, it cannot be compared with the anguish of Hell where suffering is a despairing fruit of hatred while the suffering of Purgatory is a hope-filled suffering of love.

Consequently, Saint Catherine said that only in Heaven itself is there greater happiness than that amidst the torments of Purgatory. This is because the soul knows it is saved, in friendship with God, surrounded by holy souls, and thus aflame with love of God.

Saint Catherine explained:

I believe no happiness can be found worthy to be compared with that of a soul in Purgatory except that of the saints in Paradise; and day by day this happiness grows as God flows into these souls, more and more as the hindrance to His entrance is consumed. Sin’s rust is the hindrance, and the fire burns the rust away so that more and more the soul opens itself up to the divine inflowing. A thing which is covered cannot respond to the sun’s rays, not because of any defect in the sun, which is shining all the time, but because the cover is an obstacle; if the cover be burnt away, this thing is open to the sun; more and more as the cover is consumed does it respond to the rays of the sun.

It is in this way that rust, which is sin, covers souls, and in Purgatory is burnt away by fire; the more it is consumed, the more do the souls respond to God, the true sun. As the rust lessens and the soul is opened up to the divine ray, happiness grows; until the time be accomplished the one wanes and the other waxes. Pain however does not lessen but only the time for which pain is endured. As for will: never can the souls say these pains are pains, so contented are they with God’s ordaining with which, in pure charity, their will is united.

The Duration of Purgatory

The amount of time spent in Purgatory is very difficult to express in human terms. In accounts of private visions, we read of souls condemned for a number of years or even until the end of the world. Indeed, Our Lady revealed to the seers of Fatima that a girl who died shortly before the apparitions would remain there until the end of time.

Theologians explain that time in Purgatory can be gauged in two ways. The first is positive and corresponds to time as we measure it on earth; the other is fictitious or imaginary since it corresponds to the amount of time that souls judge they suffered which is distorted since this very suffering causes them to lose track of time.

Thus, we see souls, who after mere hours in Purgatory complain about years or even centuries of suffering.

Saint Anthony tells the story of a sick person who suffered so atrociously that he considered it beyond human nature and thus continually prayed for death. One day, an angel appeared to him and said, “God sent me here to offer you a choice. You can spend one year of suffering on earth, or one day in Purgatory.” Choosing the latter, he died and went to Purgatory.

When the angel went to console him, he was greeted with this groan of pain, “Deceitful angel! At least twenty years ago, you said that I would spend only one day in Purgatory . . . My God, how I suffer!”

To this the Angel responded, “Poor deluded soul, your body is not even buried yet.”

Devotion to the Souls in Purgatory

Devotion to souls in Purgatory originated in the early Church, based on the dogma of the Communion of Saints. Although these souls cannot gain merit, they are in friendship with God, Who willingly applies merits offered for them.

Therefore it is an act of charity to pray, offer Masses, sacrifices and indulgences for them.

This devotion was ingrained so deeply in the faithful that even Luther dared not abolish it. He understood the importance of proceeding towards his insidious goals with caution.

Supported by Scripture and Tradition, the Church defined the dogma of the Communion of Saints, which encourages devotion to the holy souls. This devotion not only encourages the practice of charity but also enlivens faith and consoles those who have lost loved ones.

The Powerful Intercession of the Souls in Purgatory

Besides being a spiritual work of mercy and a powerful reminder of the afterlife, devotion to souls in Purgatory also affords us invaluable intercession as demonstrated by Church Tradition.

According to the dogma of the Communion of Saints, they form a part of the Church (called the Church Suffering) and are therefore united to us, and can intercede for us.

Examples of this abound in Church History and many readers have undoubtedly experienced such intercession. We will relate a few examples below.

The Countess of Stratford, an English protestant, having doubts about the existence of Purgatory, consulted the Bishop of Amiens, France. Hearing her objection, he answered, “Tell the Bishop of London (an Anglican) that I will leave the Faith and become an Anglican if he can prove that Saint Augustine never celebrated Mass or prayed for the dead, especially his mother.”

Following his advice, the Countess wrote the Anglican bishop of London. Seeing that he did not respond, she converted.

At a certain point during her reform of the Carmelites, Saint Teresa was in need of a convent. A noble named Bernadine of Toledo responded to her need and donated a place for the convent. He died shortly afterwards. Saint Theresa received the revelation that he would remain in Purgatory until the first Mass was celebrated in the convent he had donated. She thus hastened to establish its foundation. During communion of this first Mass, she saw his soul radiant with splendor at the side of the priest. Thanks to that Mass which had been said for him, he was freed from Purgatory.

Whenever Saint Catherine of Bologna’s prayers seemed unanswered, she would call upon the intercession of the souls in Purgatory. She affirmed that these prayers were always answered.

A Moving Example

The cases of intercession of the souls in Purgatory are so numerous that several books would not be enough to relate them all.

The following one, which is among the best known and most moving, happened in Paris in 1817.

A domestic servant, who had the pious habit of having a Mass said every month for the souls in Purgatory, became ill and having to be hospitalized, lost her job.

Upon leaving the hospital, she went to a church to pray, where she remembered that she had failed to have Mass said for the poor souls that month. However due to her unemployment, she could not afford a Mass offering since it would leave her penniless. After hesitating, she gave the offering.

Leaving the church, she met a young man who seemed to be a noble. He unexpectedly asked her if she needed employment and gave her the address of a house, which needed a maid.

When she arrived at the house, the owner, who had just dismissed her maid, wondered who could have known that she needed help. While describing the young man at the Church, the servant saw a painting of him on the wall.

Hearing this, the owner exclaimed, “That is my son, who died two months ago!”

Then both realized that God wanted to reward the maid’s charity and reveal the power of a suffering soul’s intercession.

[mfblume]

Deo Gratias, you will believe in it simply because the RCC teaches it. The examples you gave of people experiencing things to validate purgatory are nothing if it is not in the Word. And it is not in the Word. Try the spirits... You obviously have your mind made up, and your RCC teaching of Doctrine and Magisterium won't let you believe otherwise, anyway.

[Praxeas]

I'm not going to argue with anyone. .

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3302

How To Argue the Existence of Purgatory


In other word, Im going to pontificate my view to you but ignore your counter arguments???

[Praxeas]

Since there is no bible for this doctrine they must appeal to other sources

[mfblume]

Since there is no bible for this doctrine they must appeal to other sources

Sola scriptura is not their way, I guess.

[Deo Gratias]

"Now there is no need to pray for the dead who are in Heaven, for they are in no need; nor again for those who are in Hell, because they cannot be loosed from sins. Therefore after this life, there are some not yet loosed from sins, who can be loosed therefrom; and the like have charity, without which sins cannot be loosed, for 'charity covereth all sins' [Prov. 10:12]. Hence they will not be consigned to everlasting death, since 'he that liveth and believeth in Me, shall not die for ever' [Jn. 11:26]: nor will they obtain glory without being cleansed, because nothing unclean shall obtain it, as stated in the last chapter of the Apocalypse (verse 14). Therefore some kind of cleansing remains after this life. Further, Gregory of Nyssa [De iis qui in fide dormiunt] says: 'If one who loves and believes in Christ,' has failed to wash away his sins in this life, 'he is set free after death by the fire of Purgatory.' Therefore there remains some kind of cleansing after this life. From the conclusions we have drawn above it is sufficiently clear that there is a Purgatory after this life. For if the debt of punishment is not paid in full after the stain of sin has been washed away by contrition, nor again are venial sins always removed when mortal sins are remitted, and if justice demands that sin be set in order by due punishment, it follows that one who after contrition for his fault and after being absolved, dies before making due satisfaction, is punished after this life. Wherefore those who deny Purgatory speak against the justice of God: for which reason such a statement is erroneous and contrary to faith. Hence Gregory of Nyssa, after the words quoted above, adds: 'This we preach, holding to the teaching of truth, and this is our belief; this the universal Church holds, by praying for the dead that they may be loosed from sins.' This cannot be understood except as referring to Purgatory: and whosoever resists the authority of the Church, incurs the note of heresy." - St. Thomas Aquinas ("Summa Theologica" 13th century A.D.)

[Deo Gratias]

WHAT THE EARLY CHURCH BELIEVED

"Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out." St. Cyril of Jerusalem ("Catechetical Lectures" c. 350 A.D.)

"Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf, even if it does not force back the whole of guilty charges laid to them. And it is useful also, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily, and thus it is a reminder to do better." St. Epiphanius of Salamis ("Medicine Chest Against All Heresies" c. 375 A.D.)

"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice (Job 1:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them." St. John Chrysostom ("Homilies on 1 Corinthians" c. 392 A.D.)

"Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extant of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. when the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf." St. John Chrysostom ("Homilies on Philippians" c. 402 A.D.)

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended. But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death." St. Augustine of Hippo ("Sermons" c. 411 A.D.)

"Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment." St. Augustine of Hippo ("The City of God" c. 419 A.D.)

"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire." St. Augustine of Hippo ("Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity" c. 421 A.D.)

[Deo Gratias]

O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have mercy on them. Be not severe in Your judgments, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames. And, Merciful Savior, send Your angels to conduct them to a place of refreshment, light and peace. Amen.

[TJJJ]

Deo

You are a diehard catholic who has infilitrated in here to try to spread your filth.

You saw the word "apostolic" and thought that it was dealing with catholics, not realizing that we believe the REAL apostles doctrine, found in Acts 2:38.

Go learn what that meaneth.

[mfblume]

O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have mercy on them. Be not severe in Your judgments, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames. And, Merciful Savior, send Your angels to conduct them to a place of refreshment, light and peace. Amen.

Nothing but the blood of Jesus can purge away sins. Not fire, not purgatory, not anything. His blood ALONE without the aid of fire.