Would You Shoplift to Feed Your Children?

[ILG]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SmartSpending/blog/page.aspx?post=1502341&_blg=1,1502341

[DividedThigh]

would not, no good done out of evil is gods will, dt

[scotty]

Nope !

[KWSS1976]

Nope no stealing... there is to many places to go and get food for free if you are really starving there is always a food line somewhere...someone will feed you

[ILG]

Nope no stealing... there is to many places to go and get food for free if you are really starving there is always a food line somewhere...someone will feed you

The question is really...would you if you were STARVING.....that means, nothing available.

[ILG]

There's a poll here to take too, folks! LOL!:santathumb

[pelathais]

I don't know about "shoplifting." If I was in that extreme kind of need and food was otherwise available, I'd simply make my case. People are reasonable and even generous.

That whole thing with the Anglican priest which may have started this thread (and other discussions as well) is a red herring. He was preaching "class envy" - and in an environment where the class distinctions aren't all that clear. His main target was "corporations." There was clearly a political agenda and not a substantial need for the hungry poor.

I've worked in food banks before. There's plenty of food in the world. The problem is distribution and preservation from spoilage, which is often linked to distribution problems. Believe it or not, the good people in America help the hungry. In other parts of the world food is often held as a hostage for political reasons.

There's always something wrong when politics gets involved in the distribution of food and other resources. And it seemed to me that this priest was part of the problem and not offering a solution.

[ILG]

Call me "liberal", but I would shoplift to feed myself and my children provided all other avenues were exhausted. I see this as the same principle as when Jesus said that the sabbath was made for the man and not man for the sabbath. I think stealing is wrong. But it's a greater wrong to allow your children to starve or even yourself for that matter. My opinion.

[ILG]

I don't know about "shoplifting." If I was in that extreme kind of need and food was otherwise available, I'd simply make my case. People are reasonable and even generous.

That whole thing with the Anglican priest which may have started this thread (and other discussions as well) is a red herring. He was preaching "class envy" - and in an environment where the class distinctions aren't all that clear. His main target was "corporations." There was clearly a political agenda and not a substantial need for the hungry poor.

I've worked in food banks before. There's plenty of food in the world. The problem is distribution and preservation from spoilage, which is often linked to distribution problems. Believe it or not, the good people in America help the hungry. In other parts of the world food is often held as a hostage for political reasons.

There's always something wrong when politics gets involved in the distribution of food and other resources. And it seemed to me that this priest was part of the problem and not offering a solution.

Yeah, that's true. And the thing is there is almost ALWAYS another recourse than shoplifting...

[pelathais]

Call me "liberal", but I would shoplift to feed myself and my children provided all other avenues were exhausted. I see this as the same principle as when Jesus said that the sabbath was made for the man and not man for the sabbath. I think stealing is wrong. But it's a greater wrong to allow your children to starve or even yourself for that matter. My opinion.
If such a circumstance were real, I don't think you or any objective observer would consider it "stealing." If the political landscape were so distorted that such a situation was allowed to develop then a general rebellion would be in order, as per Mr. Thomas Jefferson.

[KWSS1976]

WelL ILG if this was the case pr your post....The question is really...would you if you were STARVING.....that means, nothing available

what good would stealing do if nothing is available...lol there would be nothing to steal....lol

[missourimary]

None of the above... I'd go apply for some Obama-aid!

Its hard to tell what a person would do in such a circumstance, until they are in it.

[ILG]

If such a circumstance were real, I don't think you or any objective observer would consider it "stealing." If the political landscape were so distorted that such a situation was allowed to develop then a general rebellion would be in order, as per Mr. Thomas Jefferson.

Yes, that would have to be the case. Under normal circumstances as such as we have today, most people can get food one way or another...

[ILG]

WelL ILG if this was the case pr your post....The question is really...would you if you were STARVING.....that means, nothing available

what good would stealing do if nothing is available...lol there would be nothing to steal....lol

Oh, aren't you a hoot! :thebunny

[OnTheFritz]

I'd leave an IOU.

[Pressing-On]

Proverbs 30:8-9 "Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."

If God answered my prayer I wouldn't but, if He didn't, I would. I would expect God wouldn't put me in that place as He has answered innumerable and awesome prayer requests. :santathumb

[Pressing-On]

I'd leave an IOU.

:santathumb :santathumb

:jolly

[Pressing-On]

None of the above... I'd go apply for some Obama-aid!

Its hard to tell what a person would do in such a circumstance, until they are in it.
:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

[Neck]

No but I would give my blood for cash to get food!

[shag]

If I couldnt work, sell, or trade anything AT ALL to pay for it, rather than stealing it. And if options of hunting wild game...fishing...or cats, rats, bugs, or slugs, or ANY other option was not possible, of getting food for my children, then you're dang right I'd steal to feed my children, and wouldnt think twice about it. The only way I wouldnt, would be if the storeowner, or whoever it was that I was stealing from, was in the same situation absolutely as bad off as my children were...then I would reconsider.
But then, "Ive never seen His seed begging for bread"...

[ForeverBlessed]

I've been in some destitute places financially...and even gotten down where there was very little in the cabinets... only to have God step in and provide by people who had absolutely no clue it was needed.

I trust God too much to resort to shoplifting.

[MissBrattified]

No! God will provide our needs!

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Psalm 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
Psalm 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

[pelathais]

No! God will provide our needs!

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Psalm 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
Psalm 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
I have seen righteous people literally begging for food.

[ILG]

I have seen righteous people literally begging for food.

Yeah. I don't think we can be superspiritual about this and say God's people don't ever starve.

[ForeverBlessed]

I have seen righteous people literally begging for food.

Yeah. I don't think we can be superspiritual about this and say God's people don't ever starve.

Then the local church body that they are part of is not really operating as they should... I have seen many people in hard times, but have never seen them go without food.

Oft times people have too much pride to ask or to let someone know of their struggles.

[pelathais]

Then the local church body that they are part of is not really operating as they should... I have seen many people in hard times, but have never seen them go without food.

Oft times people have too much pride to ask or to let someone know of their struggles.
You're right, however I had some situations overseas in mind. The hunger was due to political corruption and banditry exacerbated by hoarding. Still, they were righteous people and they were hungry and begging for food.

But what of hunger in America and real hunger withing an arms reach of the church? We can indict "the church" - but that passage in Psalms is still left unattended, at least if people try to use it as some sort of doctrine. All we can really say is that the Psalmist lived in pretty good times in a pretty good place - sort of like the places most of us live.

But hunger and want should never be a measure of righteousness.

[OnTheFritz]

You know how they tell you on the plane to put the oxygen mask on first, THEN put it on your kids lest you become incapacitated. I think eating should be the same. I'll eat first, then give them something. I wouldn't want to pass out.... :D

[MissBrattified]

Yeah. I don't think we can be superspiritual about this and say God's people don't ever starve.

Baron said something the other day--I think it was "This is generally true, but not universally true." We have been in some REALLY tight spots, but we have never gone without food. Sometimes it has to do with the ability to be frugal, too--I can feed my family for two days with a $2 bag of beans and some rice if I have to. It isn't ideal, but you'll survive. Some people think they're starving if they don't have the foods they want. I haven't ever personally seen any fellow Christians have to beg for food. Growing up in a pastor's home, I HAVE seen people tell us they didn't have any food, when in reality they meant, "All we have to eat is macaroni and cheese." Not the same thing.

Regardless, there are too many resources, churches, charities, etc., available for anyone to excuse stealing in order to eat. Maybe pride gets in the way of asking for help, but if we had no food, we'd be praying first, and probably borrowing money from somewhere or asking family for help.

[ILG]

Then the local church body that they are part of is not really operating as they should... I have seen many people in hard times, but have never seen them go without food.

Oft times people have too much pride to ask or to let someone know of their struggles.

I am talking about areas where people are starving generally.

[ILG]

Baron said something the other day--I think it was "This is generally true, but not universally true." We have been in some REALLY tight spots, but we have never gone without food. Sometimes it has to do with the ability to be frugal, too--I can feed my family for two days with a $2 bag of beans and some rice if I have to. It isn't ideal, but you'll survive. Some people think they're starving if they don't have the foods they want. I haven't ever personally seen any fellow Christians have to beg for food. Growing up in a pastor's home, I HAVE seen people tell us they didn't have any food, when in reality they meant, "All we have to eat is macaroni and cheese." Not the same thing.

Regardless, there are too many resources, churches, charities, etc., available for anyone to excuse stealing in order to eat. Maybe pride gets in the way of asking for help, but if we had no food, we'd be praying first, and probably borrowing money from somewhere or asking family for help.

I was more referring to an overseas situation where people are starving. It has not happened in the US, but who knows what could happen in the future?

[Pressing-On]

I was more referring to an overseas situation where people are starving. It has not happened in the US, but who knows what could happen in the future?

ILG,
I didn't vote. I would need a category that says - I would shoplift as a very last resort to feed me and my children.

If I go to the trouble of stealing that food, I'm going to eat some too! :santathumb

[ILG]

ILG,
I didn't vote. I would need a category that says - I would shoplift as a very last resort to feed me and my children.

If I go to the trouble of stealing that food, I'm going to eat some too! :santathumb

Well then, pick the one that says you would shoplift as a very last resort to feed yourself!!

[Pressing-On]

Well then, pick the one that says you would shoplift as a very last resort to feed yourself!!

NO! I want to include my children!!!! :sad :sad :sad

[Hoovie]

I vogted #1 but don't think it would ever happen. If there is commerce and goods to steal, than there are other ways including begging.

By the way, would you throw sick grandma overboard to save your kids?

[ILG]

I vogted #1 but don't think it would ever happen. If there is commerce and goods to steal, than there are other ways including begging.

By the way, would you throw sick grandma overboard to save your kids?

Only if I was on a boat. LOL! J/K I don't understand the question....

[seguidordejesus]

I won't say I wouldn't, but those would have to be some pretty hard times when an able-bodied many couldn't barter something (wood splitting, other work, stud services ;)) to get some food from someone.

[Baron1710]

Proverbs 6:30

Excuses might be found for a thief
who steals because he is starving.

Proverb 30:9
For if I grow rich, I may deny you and say, “Who is the Lord?”
And if I am too poor, I may steal and thus insult God’s holy name.

I think people underestimate the fact that most people would steal if hungry, and even more so if there kids were starving.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Proverbs 6:30

Excuses might be found for a thief
who steals because he is starving.

Proverb 30:9
For if I grow rich, I may deny you and say, “Who is the Lord?”
And if I am too poor, I may steal and thus insult God’s holy name.

I think people underestimate the fact that most people would steal if hungry, and even more so if there kids were starving.

I agree and I don't have kids.


If there was really NOTHING left, I would be praying the whole time, but I honestly think I would attempt to steal, if there were no other recourse.

Yeah, I would be praying as I shoplifted, stole, whatever, that I did not get caught and that if I did get caught that God would allow them to be merciful.



However, I think I might consider dumpster diving before shoplifting-- unless that is considered stealing too.

[Hoovie]

I agree and I don't have kids.


If there was really NOTHING left, I would be praying the whole time, but I honestly think I would attempt to steal, if there were no other recourse.

Yeah, I would be praying as I shoplifted, stole, whatever, that I did not get caught and that if I did get caught that God would allow them to be merciful.



However, I think I might consider dumpster diving before shoplifting-- unless that is considered stealing too.

I am going to argue there is always another option. Dumpster diving... there is a thought. I know some quite wealthy who do that and enjoy it.

[ILG]

I am going to argue there is always another option. Dumpster diving... there is a thought. I know some quite wealthy who do that and enjoy it.

I would love to dumpster-dive. I just can't bring myself to do it (yet!). :)

[Baron1710]

I am going to argue there is always another option. Dumpster diving... there is a thought. I know some quite wealthy who do that and enjoy it.

That is less and less of an option as the dumpsters are changing to compactors that preclude people from getting inside them at all.

It is easy to see many other options in the time that we live, but there was a time when people were eating their own children, perhaps if there had been anything to steal we wouldn't have such stories.

II Kings6:29

So we cooked my son and ate him. Then the next day I said to her, ‘Kill your son so we can eat him,’ but she has hidden her son.”

[Hoovie]

Since I understand there is no "right" to free food. I would exhaust every means. The food would not have to come from other people even.

Did you know humans can live on things that grow in the woods? In five to ten days you can grow greens to eat and sustain you til you can kill a few rats to cook for meat...

Just saying, If you take stealing out of the equation, one could think of endless possibilities.

[Baron1710]

Since I understand there is no "right" to free food. I would exhaust every means. The food would not have to come from other people even.

Did you know humans can live on things that grow in the woods? In five to ten days you can grow greens to eat and sustain you til you can kill a few rats to cook for meat...

Just saying, If you take stealing out of the equation, one could think of endless possibilities.

Seeing visions of a fat man shouting, "Get in my belly."

[Hoovie]

That is less and less of an option as the dumpsters are changing to compactors that preclude people from getting inside them at all.

It is easy to see many other options in the time that we live, but there was a time when people were eating their own children, perhaps if there had been anything to steal we wouldn't have such stories.

II Kings6:29

So we cooked my son and ate him. Then the next day I said to her, ‘Kill your son so we can eat him,’ but she has hidden her son.”

I would guess if there had been things to steal, there also would have been other options like bartering, working or begging.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Worms are good to eat and/or drink, raw or cooked.
:)

[Jermyn Davidson]

Seeing visions of a fat man shouting, "Get in my belly."

"I eat baby!" :)

[Hoovie]

I don't get this, but then I did not read the thread either...

[Baron1710]

I would guess if there had been things to steal, there also would have been other options like bartering, working or begging.

I think you have no idea what it means to have nothing. I see people everyday who have nothing more than they can carry, sleeping on benches and begging everyday for what they eat. what happens when the economy drops do much that these folks don't get anything from begging.

[Baron1710]

Just as a side note I am not justifying it, I am just saying that I believe that most people would if they had no other options, and there are times when that is the only option.

[Cindy]

Yes.

[Hoovie]

Seeing visions of a fat man shouting, "Get in my belly."

"I eat baby!" :)

I think you have no idea what it means to have nothing. I see people everyday who have nothing more than they can carry, sleeping on benches and begging everyday for what they eat. what happens when the economy drops do much that these folks don't get anything from begging.

True I have always had "something" even though I did leave home with $100 and a used bicycle 25 years ago.

I totally understand that there are many "homeless" and truly have nothing. And unlike myself, they do not have the ability or perhaps mental capacity to find alternate routes.

In no way am I saying they deserve their present status in life.

[Pressing-On]

Yes.

We could team up!! You're so tiny, you could fit in my purse!!

"NO! not that ham!!! Grab the other one. Yeah, that one! Okay, let's split!"

:toofunny

[Baron1710]

True I have always had "something" even though I did leave home with $100 and a used bicycle 25 years ago.

I totally understand that there are many "homeless" and truly have nothing. And unlike myself, they do not have the ability or perhaps mental capacity to find alternate routes.

In no way am I saying they deserve their present status in life.

I never thought you did.

A used bicycle? Or did you borrow it?

[Hoovie]

If I couldnt work, sell, or trade anything AT ALL to pay for it, rather than stealing it. And if options of hunting wild game...fishing...or cats, rats, bugs, or slugs, or ANY other option was not possible, of getting food for my children, then you're dang right I'd steal to feed my children, and wouldnt think twice about it. The only way I wouldnt, would be if the storeowner, or whoever it was that I was stealing from, was in the same situation absolutely as bad off as my children were...then I would reconsider.
But then, "Ive never seen His seed begging for bread"...


I assume you are serious about the bugs and slugs - as am I... I figure some think they are at the end and "have no other means" when they run out of money or food stamps are cut off...

[Hoovie]

I never thought you did.

A used bicycle? Or did you borrow it?

It was my own bike.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Most grass isn't poisonous, but some leaves and berries are. Tree bark can make a potent coffee substitute too!

[Baron1710]

It was my own bike.

We live in an area that has a lot of Amish folk, I can see you riding off on one of those old bikes. Did you have one of those cool hats too?

[notofworks]

...even though I did leave home with $100 and a used bicycle 25 years ago.


I'd love to hear more about that.

[Hoovie]

I'd love to hear more about that.

Perhaps sometime. It brings alot of mixed feelings and memories. Sort of the best of times and the worst of times for me.

God has been sooo good to me - truly in all things I have been blessed more than my share.

[Hoovie]

We live in an area that has a lot of Amish folk, I can see you riding off on one of those old bikes. Did you have one of those cool hats too?

Still got one of those cool hats (my dad's). The irony is - I was sort of embarrassed back then, now I toy with the idea of taking a "sabbatical" for a month or two to return to my roots.

[Baron1710]

Still got one of those cool hats (my dad's). The irony is - I was sort of embarrassed back then, now I toy with the idea of taking a "sabbatical" for a month or two to return to my roots.

I get that. Would they accept you back?

[Hoovie]

I get that. Would they accept you back?

Well yes, the Old Order Mennonites don't "shun" like the Amish, nor had I officially joined the church yet when I "left".

Not sure how they would accept the notion of a short termed stay though.

[MissBrattified]

I am talking about areas where people are starving generally.

I see...well, they must have some shred of morality left--what stops them from cannibalism? Apparently in Bible days, that's what they resorted to.

I'm not saying I would NEVER--because I haven't actually been to point zero, where we not only had no food, but no resources, no help, no outlets of any type. I don't believe God would allow us to get to that place, but I suppose unless I've actually been there, I can't say for sure that I wouldn't sin in the midst of crisis.

I don't believe it's okay, though, even in the midst of crisis. What stops you from asking for help? If your neighbor has food, ask them to share--why just take it? If a shop has food, ask for charity--why just take it?

As Hoovie pointed out, there are ways to live off the land, too. It may offend our sensibilities, but it's survival nonetheless. In Bible days, it seems that God made provision for His people in times of hardship, except when He was angry with them for some reason. I have no reason to believe He will treat my family any differently.

Do we read about NT Christians rising up and murdering Romans because they were persecuting them? Even killing their children before their eyes? How would American Christians handle such a situation? Would we be biblically excused to raise up arms against the government if they started putting Christians to death? We have a clear example (although an extreme one) that in life threatening situations one can and should still remain Christlike.

It's also important to note that in OT times, people were required to make provision for the needy, leaving behind portions of their harvest to be picked up, among other things.

[seguidordejesus]

I would love to dumpster-dive. I just can't bring myself to do it (yet!). :)

I dumpster dove in college...found a lot of cool stuff. Found 8 old gas nozzles (the ones at the service station). They were pure aluminum and got me a lot at the recycle truck the next day ;)

[Cindy]

We could team up!! You're so tiny, you could fit in my purse!!

"NO! not that ham!!! Grab the other one. Yeah, that one! Okay, let's split!"

:toofunny

:jolly

[ILG]

That is less and less of an option as the dumpsters are changing to compactors that preclude people from getting inside them at all.


This is true, and it ticks me off they would do that to good garbage before anyone has had a chance to look through it!!!:itsover

[ILG]

Since I understand there is no "right" to free food. I would exhaust every means. The food would not have to come from other people even.

Did you know humans can live on things that grow in the woods? In five to ten days you can grow greens to eat and sustain you til you can kill a few rats to cook for meat...

Just saying, If you take stealing out of the equation, one could think of endless possibilities.

This is assuming your have woods to plant in....

I agree there are endless possibilites and some would be more creative than others. But, starving is not an option for me. ;)

[Baron1710]

This is true, and it ticks me off they would do that to good garbage before anyone has had a chance to look through it!!!:itsover

It is also a liability issue. People crawl around in a dumpster and get hurt then sue the business. Plus with the compactors they can have garbage chutes so they don't have to go outside and fight a dumpster lid or heaving garbage over the top.

[notofworks]

Perhaps sometime. It brings alot of mixed feelings and memories. Sort of the best of times and the worst of times for me.

God has been sooo good to me - truly in all things I have been blessed more than my share.

It would be inspirational. It's had to have been quite an interesting journey. Merry Christmas!!:santaclaus

[ILG]

=MissBrattified;854448

I'm not saying I would NEVER--because I haven't actually been to point zero, where we not only had no food, but no resources, no help, no outlets of any type. I don't believe God would allow us to get to that place, but I suppose unless I've actually been there, I can't say for sure that I wouldn't sin in the midst of crisis.

I don't think it would be a sin in that case.

I don't believe it's okay, though, even in the midst of crisis. What stops you from asking for help? If your neighbor has food, ask them to share--why just take it? If a shop has food, ask for charity--why just take it?

If there is charity, certainly, you ask and don't steal. Assume there is no charity to be had. If you ask first, you flag yourself to be watched. ;)

As Hoovie pointed out, there are ways to live off the land, too. It may offend our sensibilities, but it's survival nonetheless. In Bible days, it seems that God made provision for His people in times of hardship, except when He was angry with them for some reason. I have no reason to believe He will treat my family any differently.

I also believe we will be treated no differently than those in the Bible, including those who ate their own children. And, yes, I believe eating your own children would be a grievous sin. I would like to believe I had the intestinal fortitude to NOT eat my own children, no matter the case.

Do we read about NT Christians rising up and murdering Romans because they were persecuting them? Even killing their children before their eyes? How would American Christians handle such a situation? Would we be biblically excused to raise up arms against the government if they started putting Christians to death? We have a clear example (although an extreme one) that in life threatening situations one can and should still remain Christlike.

I don't think it's a sin to steal to feed your children if you've exhausted all other avenues. As long as you are not taking food out of someone else's mouth, you could view it as borrowing and pay it back later.

It's also important to note that in OT times, people were required to make provision for the needy, leaving behind portions of their harvest to be picked up, among other things.

And some of them starved anyway...

[ILG]

It is also a liability issue. People crawl around in a dumpster and get hurt then sue the business. Plus with the compactors they can have garbage chutes so they don't have to go outside and fight a dumpster lid or heaving garbage over the top.

Yeah, yeah....liability, shmiabiliy......They're still messing with good garbage. ;)

[ILG]

It would be inspirational. It's had to have been quite an interesting journey. Merry Christmas!!:santaclaus

Check out his thread...I believe it's called Growing Up Mennonite.

[tstew]

Interesting thread. I think that for most of us, this is so hypothetical that we tend to be more theoretical here than we would be in real life. I think that the question is "would I allow my children to literally starve in my arms if the bottom fell out and the only means of survival is something that I would ordinarily consider unethical?"
I have to honestly say that I could not say no. We were (and are) missionaries in a country that was literally destroyed by war. Around 1/4 of the country's population was killed. We had relatively small towns that were at one point losing hundreds per day to starvation alone. Every edible plant was being eaten. People were boiling leaves with no seasoning, no meat, etc, but it was not enough to sustain them long-term as the war lasted a full decade.
It's easy to say what we would and would not do especially when we are just envisioning a few tough days and not years of total desolation and destruction...but it's probably best to say "there, but for the grace of God, go I".

[ILG]

Interesting thread. I think that for most of us, this is so hypothetical that we tend to be more theoretical here than we would be in real life. I think that the question is "would I allow my children to literally starve in my arms if the bottom fell out and the only means of survival is something that I would ordinarily consider unethical?"
I have to honestly say that I could not say no. We were (and are) missionaries in a country that was literally destroyed by war. Around 1/4 of the country's population was killed. We had relatively small towns that were at one point losing hundreds per day to starvation alone. Every edible plant was being eaten. People were boiling leaves with no seasoning, no meat, etc, but it was not enough to sustain them long-term as the war lasted a full decade.
It's easy to say what we would and would not do especially when we are just envisioning a few tough days and not years of total desolation and destruction...but it's probably best to say "there, but for the grace of God, go I".

:santathumb

[MissBrattified]

Interesting thread. I think that for most of us, this is so hypothetical that we tend to be more theoretical here than we would be in real life. I think that the question is "would I allow my children to literally starve in my arms if the bottom fell out and the only means of survival is something that I would ordinarily consider unethical?"
I have to honestly say that I could not say no. We were (and are) missionaries in a country that was literally destroyed by war. Around 1/4 of the country's population was killed. We had relatively small towns that were at one point losing hundreds per day to starvation alone. Every edible plant was being eaten. People were boiling leaves with no seasoning, no meat, etc, but it was not enough to sustain them long-term as the war lasted a full decade.
It's easy to say what we would and would not do especially when we are just envisioning a few tough days and not years of total desolation and destruction...but it's probably best to say "there, but for the grace of God, go I".

Good post, tstew. :thumbsup

I really object, though, to a pastor giving his congregants permission to steal. (I think that's what brought up the conversation in the first place.) Maybe someone who would otherwise try other means might then use it as a first resort.

I believe we should plan in advance to do what is right, and then ask for forgiveness if we fail. I believe stealing is wrong even in dire circumstances, and it's better to trust God to provide your needs if all other resources have disappeared. Obviously, being an American, my perspective is skewed by the fact that I have never been that desolate. Even the most poor among us have probably not suffered what those in other countries suffer on a regular basis.

Would I think badly of someone who stole to feed their family? No! Absolutely not. I completely understand the desperation and reasoning behind it.

[Timmy]

Whattya mean "would you"? I do it all the time! Lift those things right off the shelf, drop 'em in the cart, and walk outta there, bold as you please.

(After paying for them, of course. :thumbsup)

[ILG]

Whattya mean "would you"? I do it all the time! Lift those things right off the shelf, drop 'em in the cart, and walk outta there, bold as you please.

(After paying for them, of course. :thumbsup)

Did you vote "What's yours is mine"????:christmasjig

[Timmy]

Did you vote "What's yours is mine"????:christmasjig

Haven't voted yet. Not sure what I would do, but I suppose I might do whatever I had to, if desperate enough and all other options were exhausted. We could probably say that for just about any "sin", couldn't we? Well, some "sins", I guess, like killing for self- or family-defense. Quotes around "sin" because if the motives are correct, perhaps it wouldn't really be counted as sin? Just sayin'.

[Timmy]

Did you vote "What's yours is mine"????:christmasjig

(Did you read the last line of my post? :D)

[tstew]

Good post, tstew. :thumbsup

I really object, though, to a pastor giving his congregants permission to steal. (I think that's what brought up the conversation in the first place.) Maybe someone who would otherwise try other means might then use it as a first resort.

I believe we should plan in advance to do what is right, and then ask for forgiveness if we fail. I believe stealing is wrong even in dire circumstances, and it's better to trust God to provide your needs if all other resources have disappeared. Obviously, being an American, my perspective is skewed by the fact that I have never been that desolate. Even the most poor among us have probably not suffered what those in other countries suffer on a regular basis.

Would I think badly of someone who stole to feed their family? No! Absolutely not. I completely understand the desperation and reasoning behind it.

I agree. I think that with the way things are in our country at this present time, there isn't much excuse for stealing or doing anything else unethical. However, if the bottom were to fall out, you'd be surprised how drastically things can change.

[ILG]

(Did you read the last line of my post? :D)

Yes. ;)

[ForeverBlessed]

Good post, tstew. :thumbsup

I really object, though, to a pastor giving his congregants permission to steal. (I think that's what brought up the conversation in the first place.) Maybe someone who would otherwise try other means might then use it as a first resort.

I believe we should plan in advance to do what is right, and then ask for forgiveness if we fail. I believe stealing is wrong even in dire circumstances, and it's better to trust God to provide your needs if all other resources have disappeared. Obviously, being an American, my perspective is skewed by the fact that I have never been that desolate. Even the most poor among us have probably not suffered what those in other countries suffer on a regular basis.

Would I think badly of someone who stole to feed their family? No! Absolutely not. I completely understand the desperation and reasoning behind it.

I agree, and I read the article and was thinking more of America.

[NewWine]

:starBefore I post my answer I will say that I did not take the poll. I also did not read the story, so I am responding to the question. :star
I would never steal anything be it from a store or anywhere else. As we all know stealing is not of God; and is a sin. Growing up there were times when my family had no food in our house. Not even a stick of chewing gum, but God always provided a way for our family to eat. The Lord provided manna from heaven for the children of Israel in the wilderness, and he provides for his children today. We serve a God of provision. I remember a lesson my father once taught and said something that has always stuck with me. "The people of God are not destitute" God will always provide a "ram in the bush". The Lord will not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. I would keep my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. (Having said that I'll read the article now).

[Timmy]

Here's an indisputable fact: God does not always provide food for those who need it.

[ILG]

Here's an indisputable fact: God does not always provide food for those who need it.

That's a fact.

[NewWine]

Here's an indisputable fact: God does not always provide food for those who need it.

That indeed is a fact. Glad to be part of the church and for the word of God.
"I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread". Psalms 37:25

[ILG]

That indeed is a fact. Glad to be part of the church and for the word of God.
"I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread". Psalms 37:25

Are you actually arguing that if someone is living for God they are guaranteed not to starve?

[mfblume]

Did a believer ever starve in the bible?

[Timmy]

Did a believer ever starve in the bible?

Not sure, but I'll guess "no". How is that relevant?

[mfblume]

Not sure, but I'll guess "no". How is that relevant?

Because ILG said this:

Are you actually arguing that if someone is living for God they are guaranteed not to starve?

And you said,

Here's an indisputable fact: God does not always provide food for those who need it.

So the question is, DID BELIEVERS ever starve, whether or not God provided for food for unbelievers?

The bible said that God heals the land if people turn from their wicked ways to Him. In India, they worship the cow and drink its urine in that worship. Would God bless them with plenty in all this when he said He'd heal the land IF they turn to Him? So this answers your assertion that God does not provide food for those who need it.

[Timmy]

Because ILG said this:



And you said,



So the question is, DID BELIEVERS ever starve, whether or not God provided for food for unbelievers?

The bible said that God heals the land if people turn from their wicked ways to Him. In India, they worship the cow and drink its urine in that worship. Would God bless them with plenty in all this when he said He'd heal the land IF they turn to Him? So this answers your assertion that God does not provide food for those who need it.

How on earth does that answer my assertion? :blink

[MissBrattified]

How on earth does that answer my assertion? :blink

I think the difference is this:

You said - "God does not always provide food for those who need it."

Scripture says - "I've not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging for bread."

You can quibble that point, but for me personally, I have never seen any believers starve to death. There have been exceptions where it seemed like God was allowing His people to be persecuted, such as when early Christians were imprisoned, tortured and executed.

Job said, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." Abraham followed God all the way up the mountain, even to the point of raising a knife to his only son. These were men of great faith, even unreasonable, illogical faith.

To ME, this means, trust Him to provide even when there is no answer in sight. Great faith means trusting Him especially when there is no answer in sight.

I don't know how people continue trusting God in dire circumstances--I don't know how my parents kept trusting in God after my brother drowned, but somehow they did. There's a lady in our church who lost one son to a motorcycle accident, the second son and her husband to cancer, and a son-in-law to an overdose. Yet she still is a woman who trusts God. These people will leave others who left their faith and principles in hard times without a lot of excuses. I realize we can crack under pressure, but there are so many people who have NOT cracked under pressure that I can't imagine what my excuse would be to God.

I Corinthians 10:13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."


On this thread, I need to temper my statements with:

I Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I understand it's easier to talk when you haven't been there. I've been in tight spots, but definitely haven't been in the midst of a broad famine. I also firmly believe the promises in God's Word. It's hard for me to participate in some hypothetical scenarios, because the only thing you can do with a hypothetical is state what you think is RIGHT to do. I'm not going to predict my own failure, and I would view stealing as a failure.

Again, I know what I believe is right, I know that I would tell my children the same thing, and I believe we should do our best to follow biblical commandments even to our own physical destruction, if necessary. Even typing that makes me cringe, and I vaguely hear my Dad's voice saying, "Never paint yourself into a corner." LOL!!!! It's just that I'm trying to balance three answers: 1. What is the right thing to do, according to scripture? Trust God, continue in obedience. 2. Can I predict that I would behave in the most ideal way? No. 3. Do I condemn others who resort to desperate measures to feed their children? No.

[ILG]

So the question is, DID BELIEVERS ever starve, whether or not God provided for food for unbelievers?

The bible said that God heals the land if people turn from their wicked ways to Him. In India, they worship the cow and drink its urine in that worship. Would God bless them with plenty in all this when he said He'd heal the land IF they turn to Him? So this answers your assertion that God does not provide food for those who need it.

Isn't this like saying children of believers will never be raped or molested or murdered because God is faithful? I think believers do, have and will starve. I don't think that's a terrible thing to say. It appears pretty factual to me.

[Baron1710]

I think the difference is this:

You said - "God does not always provide food for those who need it."

Scripture says - "I've not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging for bread."

You can quibble that point, but for me personally, I have never seen any believers starve to death. There have been exceptions where it seemed like God was allowing His people to be persecuted, such as when early Christians were imprisoned, tortured and executed.

Job said, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." Abraham followed God all the way up the mountain, even to the point of raising a knife to his only son. These were men of great faith, even unreasonable, illogical faith.

To ME, this means, trust Him to provide even when there is no answer in sight. Great faith means trusting Him especially when there is no answer in sight.

I don't know how people continue trusting God in dire circumstances--I don't know how my parents kept trusting in God after my brother drowned, but somehow they did. There's a lady in our church who lost one son to a motorcycle accident, the second son and her husband to cancer, and a son-in-law to an overdose. Yet she still is a woman who trusts God. These people will leave others who left their faith and principles in hard times without a lot of excuses. I realize we can crack under pressure, but there are so many people who have NOT cracked under pressure that I can't imagine what my excuse would be to God.

I Corinthians 10:13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."


On this thread, I need to temper my statements with:

I Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I understand it's easier to talk when you haven't been there. I've been in tight spots, but definitely haven't been in the midst of a broad famine. I also firmly believe the promises in God's Word. It's hard for me to participate in some hypothetical scenarios, because the only thing you can do with a hypothetical is state what you think is RIGHT to do. I'm not going to predict my own failure, and I would view stealing as a failure.

Again, I know what I believe is right, I know that I would tell my children the same thing, and I believe we should do our best to follow biblical commandments even to our own physical destruction, if necessary. Even typing that makes me cringe, and I vaguely hear my Dad's voice saying, "Never paint yourself into a corner." LOL!!!! It's just that I'm trying to balance three answers: 1. What is the right thing to do, according to scripture? 2. Can I predict that I would behave in the most ideal way? No. 3. Do I condemn others who resort to desperate measures to feed their children? No.

Simply not true. Ramond Crownover tells a story of his aunt who starved to death as a child during the depression because they could not afford to buy her the food she needed and she was allergic to her mother's milk. He told this story in class so I doubt he would be offended at me repeating it.

I remember in the 80's seeing articles about children starving to death in Ethiopia. We are incredibly blessed in this country and most of us have no idea what it means to even miss a meal much less starve to death.

Psalms are poetry and should be recognized as such, to take a line from a song in Scripture and say it is universally and literally true is dangerous and irresponsible.

Same Psalm - "Trust in the LORD and do good.
Then you will live safely in the land and prosper."

Is it always true that those who trust in the Lord will live safely in the land? Did Christians always dwell safely in London while it was being bombed by Hitler? Did Corrie Ten Boom and her family live safely in the land?

Same Psalm - "For the wicked will be destroyed,
but those who trust in the LORD will possess the land."

Really? This is literally true in this life for every believer? David is talking about what is generally true in a big picture sense not what is true for you and me in an everyday sense. Most of us will never possess the land, see the wicked destroyed and most of us will experience times we do not prosper and likely not dwell safely anywhere.

[MissBrattified]

...Psalms are poetry and should be recognized as such, to take a line from a song in Scripture and say it is universally and literally true is dangerous and irresponsible.

Yes, Baron, I've already quoted you on this thread as saying something to the effect of, "This is generally true, but not universally true." I realize there are exceptions. I just don't believe the exceptions give us reason to sin. :)

[mfblume]

How on earth does that answer my assertion? :blink

Whew. I thought it was obvious.

The thread is asking if we should steal food rather than starve. It is a Christian forum. We believe in God around here. So what do we answer?

What was your point in saying that God allows people to starve? You never said what it was, so we consider your statement in regards to the implications the thread is asking us on a Christian, God-believing forum. You seemed to imply that despite the fact God exists, people who believe in God need to know that God allows people to starve. All we can surmise by that is that you may be inferring christians should not expect God to supply food when they starve since He already is known to have allowed people to starve.

So..... should we resort to that or believe God instead? There is the counter argument that those who believe can believe that God can feed a person who seeks him need not consider stealing. So I aksed you where the bible showed believers starving.

Again, why else did you make that statement on a christian forum? I guess you could have simply not implied anything, but just said stuff happens. But I suspect you had a reason for your statement, which could have caused me to ask how on earth does your statement have anything to do with the thread?

[Baron1710]

Yes, Baron, I've already quoted you on this thread as saying something to the effect of, "This is generally true, but not universally true." I realize there are exceptions. I just don't believe the exceptions give us reason to sin. :)

Even Scripture recognizes that stealing to eat is not on the same level as stealing in a general sense. It fact the NLT says an excuse can be found for someone stealing to eat. It is easy to pontificate in a warm house with a full belly but sleep in the cold for a month and eat two potatoes during that time and see if your answer is the same.

[Timmy]

This is an example of a "can't lose" prediction or promise. "The righteous will never be forsaken". If it looks like this promise is broken, we can always say either 1) they weren't really righteous, or 2) they were kept safe in a way that we can't understand (God's ways are not our ways, etc.). Now, to me, this makes the promise absolutely pointless. Don't agree? Then tell me what the point is! Are we to read these wonderful promises and take comfort in them? How is it comforting to consider that God's protection may allow for death, or poverty, or rape? It may be God's way, after all. Are we supposed to be happy when and if those terrible things happen to us? (Terrible in our puny minds, anyway. We're so dumb!)

[mfblume]

Isn't this like saying children of believers will never be raped or molested or murdered because God is faithful? I think believers do, have and will starve. I don't think that's a terrible thing to say. It appears pretty factual to me.

Well, do have scripture ins piste of the apparent scriptures that say otherwise? That is the point. Why would David say he never saw the seed of the righteous begging for bread?

[Baron1710]

Well, do have scripture ins piste of the apparent scriptures that say otherwise? That is the point. Why would David say he never saw the seed of the righteous begging for bread?

I think I answered that, just a few posts up.

[MissBrattified]

An excuse can be found for the man who had an affair because his wife wouldn't sleep with him.

An excuse can be found for the woman who hates her neighbor because her neighbor is rude.

An excuse can be found for the drunkard who drinks because he is depressed.

An excuse can be found for the man who hates his father because his father was abusive.

An excuse can be found for the woman who takes the Lord's name in vain because she is frightened.

An excuse can be found for the poor man to covet his wealthy neighbor's possessions.

An excuse can be found for the person who lies to prevent his family from being humiliated.

The presence of excuses doesn't mean the unrighteous act will be excused by God.

[Timmy]

Whew. I thought it was obvious.

The thread is asking if we should steal food rather than starve. It is a Christian forum. We believe in God around here. So what do we answer?

What was your point in saying that God allows people to starve? You never said what it was, so we consider your statement in regards to the implications the thread is asking us on a Christian, God-believing forum. You seemed to imply that despite the fact God exists, people who believe in God need to know that God allows people to starve. All we can surmise by that is that you may be inferring christians should not expect God to supply food when they starve since He already is known to have allowed people to starve.

So..... should we resort to that or believe God instead? There is the counter argument that those who believe can believe that God can feed a person who seeks him need not consider stealing. So I aksed you where the bible showed believers starving.

Again, why else did you make that statement on a christian forum? I guess you could have simply not implied anything, but just said stuff happens. But I suspect you had a reason for your statement, which could have caused me to ask how on earth does your statement have anything to do with the thread?

I can understand your frustration. I remember experiencing it myself! It's difficult to formulate answers that are consistent with both the Bible and reality. The Bible makes assertions. Reality is what it is. One can choose to reconcile them, in any way one can, or to recognize them and accept them for what they are.

Recall my original assertion:

Here's an indisputable fact: God does not always provide food for those who need it.

Say what you like about my motivation for stating it, but: is it true? Well, of course it is true. Nobody can deny it. What they might try to deny is that God doesn't always provide food for believers. I think you would claim that. The Bible seems to claim that (aside from Baron's explanation that it is merely a generality, which is another way of explaining the exceptions that I hadn't thought of ;)). But, if you do stand by it, and if you are right, then we have no choice but to conclude that everyone who has ever died of starvation, throughout history, was an unbeliever. Do you agree?

[Baron1710]

An excuse can be found for the man who had an affair because his wife wouldn't sleep with him.

An excuse can be found for the woman who hates her neighbor because her neighbor is rude.

An excuse can be found for the drunkard who drinks because he is depressed.

An excuse can be found for the man who hates his father because his father was abusive.

An excuse can be found for the woman who takes the Lord's name in vain because she is frightened.

An excuse can be found for the poor man to covet his wealthy neighbor's possessions.

An excuse can be found for the person who lies to prevent his family from being humiliated.

The presence of excuses doesn't mean the unrighteous act will be excused by God.

Really where does the Scripture say that? I actually made reference to Scripture. I would like to see your Scripture reference for that long list of nonsense that you posted because your argument is not just weak but failing to the point of ridiculous.

Proverbs 6:30
Excuses might be found for a thief
who steals because he is starving.

[MissBrattified]

Really where does the Scripture say that? I actually made reference to Scripture. I would like to see your Scripture reference for that long list of nonsense that you posted because your argument is not just weak but failing to the point of ridiculous.

Proverbs 6:30
Excuses might be found for a thief
who steals because he is starving.

Definitely have one for the drunkard...

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Proverbs 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Regardless, my post was more about pointing out that your conclusion about the scripture is wrong. The fact that "excuses might be found" doesn't necessarily lead us to believe that their behavior is excused, or endorsed by God. I'm just a simpleton, Baron. If scripture says "Thou shalt not", I tend to believe I'm supposed to obey it.

But hey, if you're going to be snarky on Christmas Eve, I'll talk to you later. Go have some eggnog and cookies and come back when you feel like being a nice guy. :santathumb

[ILG]

I believe that God also gives us brains in our head and scriptures to show principles that work for us when laws do not. For example, Jesus disciples picked corn on the Sabbath and Jesus healed a man's withered hand on the Sabbath. These things were against the law and yet Jesus said that man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath was made for man.

Thou shalt not steal is a law made for the benefit of man and not for the destruction of man. Therefore, when it comes to starving, I believe it would be God's will that we trust in His PRINCIPLES enough to know that he is FOR us and not against us. Therefore, I believe that this is not a sin in this situation.....provided you aren't stealing from your neighbor who is in the same boat.

[ILG]

I think I answered that, just a few posts up.

Yep.

[ILG]

An excuse can be found for the man who had an affair because his wife wouldn't sleep with him.

An excuse can be found for the woman who hates her neighbor because her neighbor is rude.

An excuse can be found for the drunkard who drinks because he is depressed.

An excuse can be found for the man who hates his father because his father was abusive.

An excuse can be found for the woman who takes the Lord's name in vain because she is frightened.

An excuse can be found for the poor man to covet his wealthy neighbor's possessions.

An excuse can be found for the person who lies to prevent his family from being humiliated.

The presence of excuses doesn't mean the unrighteous act will be excused by God.

I am not looking for excuses to break God's law. I am looking for the mercy of God in such circumstances....as I said the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath.

[MissBrattified]

I am not looking for excuses to break God's law. I am looking for the mercy of God in such circumstances....as I said the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath.

I can agree with that statement...sort of. However, "thou shalt not commit adultery" is right in there with the same set of laws, so what would be the circumstance in which it would be okay to break that one?

I know you're not looking for excuses, and I'm not looking to be judgmental. :penguin

[Baron1710]

Definitely have one for the drunkard...

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Proverbs 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Regardless, my post was more about pointing out that your conclusion about the scripture is wrong. The fact that "excuses might be found" doesn't necessarily lead us to believe that their behavior is excused, or endorsed by God. I'm just a simpleton, Baron. If scripture says "Thou shalt not", I tend to believe I'm supposed to obey it.

But hey, if you're going to be snarky on Christmas Eve, I'll talk to you later. Go have some eggnog and cookies and come back when you feel like being a nice guy. :santathumb

Snarky? Maybe you should have some wine. And yet you deny the wisdom of the very verse you posted.

Does the Bible tell you it is always wrong to lie?

[ILG]

I can agree with that statement...sort of. However, "thou shalt not commit adultery" is right in there with the same set of laws, so what would be the circumstance in which it would be okay to break that one?

I know you're not looking for excuses, and I'm not looking to be judgmental. :penguin

Um....well, if you were forced by your Dad to marry your pimp when you were 16 and wanted to divorce him and marry another, I think the principle about these things would apply. ;)

[MissBrattified]

Snarky? Maybe you should have some wine. And yet you deny the wisdom of the very verse you posted.

Where did I "deny the wisdom?" I don't believe it's a sin to drink. I do believe it's wrong to get drunk (according to NT scripture).

Does the Bible tell you it is always wrong to lie?

It says that lying is an abomination. Did I lie about something, in your estimation?

[MissBrattified]

Um....well, if you were forced by your Dad to marry your pimp when you were 16 and wanted to divorce him and marry another, I think the principle about these things would apply. ;)

LOL!!! Did you have to think very hard to come up with that? :D

There seem to be some extreme, extenuating circumstances, and perhaps when your children are starving is one of them! Bottom line, each person has to do their best to abide by the laws of God, as they understand them, no matter what the circumstances.

How that pans out in application is between each individual and God.

[ILG]

LOL!!! Did you have to think very hard to come up with that? :D

There seem to be some extreme, extenuating circumstances, and perhaps when your children are starving is one of them! Bottom line, each person has to do their best to abide by the laws of God, as they understand them, no matter what the circumstances.

How that pans out in application is between each individual and God.

I think you are absolutely right. And I wouldn't want anyone to go against their conscience in this. Therefore, those of you who wouldn't steal might need to make a list of those who would, just in case you get into a tight spot sometime. ;)

[Baron1710]

Where did I "deny the wisdom?" I don't believe it's a sin to drink. I do believe it's wrong to get drunk (according to NT scripture).



It says that lying is an abomination. Did I lie about something, in your estimation?

Nope no lies.

Yet Rahab makes the Hebrews hall of fame and what was it she did? She lied.

Elijah lied to Ahab.

The midwives lied to Pharaoh and God honored them for it.

The Ten Boom's lied to the Germans and hid Jews.

All these hard and fast rules have exceptions when the alternative is worse than the sin. Human life is greater than any command not to lie

[Baron1710]

Just so you all know I won't be stealing your Christmas dinner, we are having appetizers for Christmas Eve, and I am committing another sin, gluttony. Crab stuffed mushrooms, Spinach dip, artichoke dip, pigs in a blanket, mmmmmmm.

[MissBrattified]

I think you are absolutely right. And I wouldn't want anyone to go against their conscience in this. Therefore, those of you who wouldn't steal might need to make a list of those who would, just in case you get into a tight spot sometime. ;)

:D I have a BIL who would do it in a ♥beat. He stole a pair of boots for my husband one time, when they were about 10 & 12 (my husband is the younger one). Jeff got upset because he thought his brother bought him the shoes, and didn't understand when his brother made him scuff them up on the sidewalk before they got home. The first time my husband told me that story, I was a little shocked, but I realize it was his brother's way of trying to take care of his little brother--they were dirt poor, and often homeless, sleeping in their van or worse. (One time they actually went to the local jail and were allowed to sleep in a cell.)

I understand the reasoning behind it, and I'm not going to condemn people for trying to take care of their loved ones. I hate that some of my comments might be construed that way, because I don't feel that way at all.

[MissBrattified]

Nope no lies.

Yet Rahab makes the Hebrews hall of fame and what was it she did? She lied.

Elijah lied to Ahab.

The midwives lied to Pharaoh and God honored them for it.

The Ten Boom's lied to the Germans and hid Jews.

All these hard and fast rules have exceptions when the alternative is worse than the sin. Human life is greater than any command not to lie

That's an interesting statement that I'll have to mull over. Enjoy your hor d'oeuvres! I have chocolate pies and a red velvet cake to make, so I'm out!

:christmasfire

[mfblume]

I can understand your frustration. I remember experiencing it myself! It's difficult to formulate answers that are consistent with both the Bible and reality. The Bible makes assertions. Reality is what it is. One can choose to reconcile them, in any way one can, or to recognize them and accept them for what they are.

I see no frustration. Honestly. What made you say that?

Recall my original assertion:

Here's an indisputable fact: God does not always provide food for those who need it.

Say what you like about my motivation for stating it, but: is it true? Well, of course it is true. Nobody can deny it.

Sure, but the Word explains such things.

But why did you initially say what you did? (You asked me and I responded.)

What they might try to deny is that God doesn't always provide food for believers. I think you would claim that. The Bible seems to claim that (aside from Baron's explanation that it is merely a generality, which is another way of explaining the exceptions that I hadn't thought of ;)). But, if you do stand by it, and if you are right, then we have no choice but to conclude that everyone who has ever died of starvation, throughout history, was an unbeliever. Do you agree?

I can only stand on what God says.

[Timmy]

I see no frustration. Honestly. What made you say that?


You made some kind of oblique attempt to answer my assertion, and claimed that it was obvious. It wasn't. Not even close. And the "whew". ;)


Sure, but the Word explains such things.


The Word explains why God doesn't always provide food for those who need it?


But why did you initially say what you did? (You asked me and I responded.)


It was in response to NewWine's post, immediately prior to mine, but I neglected to quote it, sorry. NW gave examples of God meeting people's needs, and I posted it to generate discussion. I purposely worded my statement to include everyone, and not just believers, expecting the discussion to go that way (to contrast believers and unbelievers, and how God provides for them -- or doesn't). Which it did. :winkgrin


I can only stand on what God says.

Of course! And do you agree with what I said? Does the Bible teach that everyone who ever dies of starvation must be an unbeliever? Let's not dance around it! A 'yes' or 'no' would seem to be appropriate, here. Let me make it very plain. Do you agree with the following statement:

Everyone who has ever died of starvation is an unbeliever.

[notofworks]

I interrupt this discussion to wish you a Merry Christmas, Timmy!

[Timmy]

I interrupt this discussion to wish you a Merry Christmas, Timmy!

And to you and yours, NoW (and everyone else)! :christmasfire

[mfblume]

You made some kind of oblique attempt to answer my assertion, and claimed that it was obvious. It wasn't. Not even close. And the "whew". ;)

That was not frustration with the reality of the world and the bible's claims whatsoever. It was a bit of frustration with having to detail to you what I felt was obvious to you. :)

The Word explains why God doesn't always provide food for those who need it?

Yes! Sin causes lack of blessings.

Of course! And do you agree with what I said? Does the Bible teach that everyone who ever dies of starvation must be an unbeliever? Let's not dance around it! A 'yes' or 'no' would seem to be appropriate, here. Let me make it very plain. Do you agree with the following statement:

Everyone who has ever died of starvation is an unbeliever.

You form questions with loaded words. lol

Hebrews 11 stated that some refused deliverance and chose a better resurrection in various situations. So we cannot say everyone who died so was an unbeliever. Otherwise, yes, God does not allow a believer to starve. Period.

Merry Christmas to you as well!

[Timmy]

To be continued.

:christmasjig

[notofworks]

That was not frustration with the reality of the world and the bible's claims whatsoever. It was a bit of frustration with having to detail to you what I felt was obvious to you. :)



Yes! Sin causes lack of blessings.



You form questions with loaded words. lol

Hebrews 11 stated that some refused deliverance and chose a better resurrection in various situations. So we cannot say everyone who died so was an unbeliever. Otherwise, yes, God does not allow a believer to starve. Period.

Merry Christmas to you as well!

I interrupt this discussion, again, to wish you a Merry Christmas, too, Mike. And I also want to see what you have to say to Timmy's inquiry. Yes, his question is loaded, but it deserves an answer. So in his absence, (our family thing isn't for another hour), to further try to nail you into the corner, are you saying that every person who has ever died of starvation, that wanted food, was an unbeliever?

If that's your assertion, I'd have trouble with that. Do we then say that very person who died of cancer, who was killed in a car wreck, who was paralyzed.....was an unbeliever?

[Trouvere]

I would not shoplift. Stealing is a sin. I would rather ask Jesus.