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Consapostolic1
07-01-2010, 06:39 AM
If people left the UPCI for the WPF due to what they saw as a slipping away of the standards, etc. then of do you think they'll return since the UPCI began reaffirming its stand for the protection of those issues? I think a lot of people have too many ties to the UPCI to be apart of the WPF which is now very similar. I also believe that many of the moderate/conservative preaches left because they weren't sure where the UPCI was trying to stand on the holiness issues. Now that the UPCI is declaring their stance I think the returns are inevitable. What do you ladies and gentlemen think?

rgcraig
07-01-2010, 06:48 AM
Nope.

GraceAmazing
07-01-2010, 07:02 AM
I think I agree with Renda...there is just too much water under that bridge, so to speak...just my opinion.

*AQuietPlace*
07-01-2010, 07:43 AM
There may be some ministers who will. I sincerely doubt that the 'top' ones will.

Standards
07-01-2010, 08:00 AM
Bro. French did. I don't think Bro. Booker, Bro. Coon or Bro. Godair will ever turn their back on the WPF. They've invested too must time in it.

Yardley
07-01-2010, 08:08 AM
There's nothing to go back to. They have burned too many bridges. The East Coast side went out with a bang- letter writing, accusations of UPC depravity, etc. How could they ever go back- they closed that option themselves. Of course, I can hear them now, pounding their chests, proclaiming their stand to the end.

Sad.

MissBrattified
07-01-2010, 08:10 AM
They won't. Those who orchestrated the move handled it poorly and unethically, and so they would have to lose major face in order to return. I guess it COULD happen, but it's highly unlikely.

People should never paint themselves into a corner.

Jason B
07-01-2010, 08:18 AM
I don't think they will ever go back as a whole, simply because of "positions". I agree that the two orginizations are all but mirror images of each other, whatever doctrinal differences there are within the WPF and UPC already exist within the UPC itself, they are minor differences.

I hope I am wrong, I think the more unity we have the stronger God's church is. However, I am neither UPC or WPF, if fact I don't belong to any denomination, denominations simply divide God's people over trivial issues and personal preferences.

John Atkinson
07-01-2010, 08:20 AM
Not likely

Yardley
07-01-2010, 11:05 AM
[COLOR="Red"] I agree that the two orginizations are all but mirror images of each other."



Not in one aspect- the WPF ministers are constantly expounding on their version of pastoral authority. They are all about fellowship with other ministers- to the detriment of the body. At all the meetings, etc. it is constantly advertised for all the special 'minister and families only' functions. (This is more than the usual!) Their sermons (generalization, i know- but a lot) are about obeying the pastor, submitting to leadership, loving your pastor, etc., etc. Propagating this type of message where faith is placed in man over God, will only lead to crumbling foundations.

While I believe pastor authority is Biblical (and by that- very clear in its limitations and role), the WPF meetings have gone over-board. Soon, I believe you will start seeing fall-out in church ministry and saints under some of these leaders that have become 'pentecostal popes.'

The cry of 'enough' is bound to start reverberating in some of these churches.

Jack Shephard
07-01-2010, 12:21 PM
For some people once you taste leadership you don't want to give it up. So no I don't see them going back either. I hope they don't either. Just saying.

MomOfADramaQn
07-01-2010, 12:25 PM
Who cares - glad my church is not a part of any organization.

SOUNWORTHY
07-03-2010, 08:06 AM
Not in one aspect- the WPF ministers are constantly expounding on their version of pastoral authority. They are all about fellowship with other ministers- to the detriment of the body. At all the meetings, etc. it is constantly advertised for all the special 'minister and families only' functions. (This is more than the usual!) Their sermons (generalization, i know- but a lot) are about obeying the pastor, submitting to leadership, loving your pastor, etc., etc. Propagating this type of message where faith is placed in man over God, will only lead to crumbling foundations.

While I believe pastor authority is Biblical (and by that- very clear in its limitations and role), the WPF meetings have gone over-board. Soon, I believe you will start seeing fall-out in church ministry and saints under some of these leaders that have become 'pentecostal popes.'

The cry of 'enough' is bound to start reverberating in some of these churches.

A pastor earns love and respect, it can not be dictated.

Falla39
07-03-2010, 11:32 AM
[QUOTE=SOUNWORTHY;933737]A pastor earns love and respect,
it can not be dictated./QUOTE]

Or demanded! My dear old late father, who was a pastor of
many years would say, "Adults do not like to be treated like
children! They will resent it"! The sooner this is realized, the
better off everyone will be". We're talking about adults, and
not children. Parents should be the ones to teach obedience
to their own children. The pastor has his own family to bring
up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. In many cases if
we have waited for the pastor to correct our children, which
was our God-given responsibility, we've waited too late. By
that time only God can do what needs to be done. And HE may
hold us as parents responsibile. Did we feed them spiritually
as well as physically. Did we teach them godly principals as
they grew. If we haven't done our part, don't expect the
pastor to work a miracle.

Just some thoughts

Falla39

Jack Shephard
07-03-2010, 11:37 AM
Just a thought....Why would you go back to something that you believed God delivered you from? That is whether it was leaving the UPC for something more conservative or something less conservative.

luzsilver
07-05-2010, 02:20 AM
WHO OR WHAT IS WPF , I WISH EVERYONE WOULD STOP USING ABREVIATIONS NOT ALL OF US KNOW ALL THESE ORG, PLEASE IF YOU START A THREAD EXPLAIN THE WHOLE THING CLEARLY.:pullhair

tv1a
07-05-2010, 05:09 AM
Whiney Pentecostals Fellowship

WHO OR WHAT IS WPF , I WISH EVERYONE WOULD STOP USING ABREVIATIONS NOT ALL OF US KNOW ALL THESE ORG, PLEASE IF YOU START A THREAD EXPLAIN THE WHOLE THING CLEARLY.:pullhair

oletime
07-05-2010, 07:54 AM
whiney pentecostals fellowship

idk ok lol PS Whats ORG ? :)

MawMaw
07-05-2010, 09:24 AM
WHO OR WHAT IS WPF , I WISH EVERYONE WOULD STOP USING ABREVIATIONS NOT ALL OF US KNOW ALL THESE ORG, PLEASE IF YOU START A THREAD EXPLAIN THE WHOLE THING CLEARLY.:pullhair

WPF is Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship.

I don't think the WPF will have a need to go back to UPC. I just pray both organizations can continue to lead others to Christ in these swiftly closing last days.

edjen01
07-07-2010, 12:30 PM
i don't think they will get back together. i believe most of the "ringleaders" left because of power issues...standards were only the excuse. JMO.

Maximilian
07-07-2010, 12:31 PM
WPF is Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship.

I don't think the WPF will have a need to go back to UPC. I just pray both organizations can continue to lead others to Christ in these swiftly closing last days.

How soon do you think? Our generation? Two more?

I'm hoping those groups can lead people to Christ too. Seems there may be a conflict that some have of leading people to themselves first though. :)

MawMaw
07-07-2010, 03:22 PM
How soon do you think? Our generation? Two more?

The only thing sure, is that no one knows for sure! Could be today! :bliss

I'm hoping those groups can lead people to Christ too. Seems there may be a conflict that some have of leading people to themselves first though. :)

Another sure thing is that there is no organization perfect! :grampa

Timmy
07-07-2010, 03:25 PM
i don't think they will get back together. . . .

Unless the Lord tells them to, of course. :winkgrin

Sister Alvear
07-07-2010, 08:44 PM
I am of the opinion we can live for God and live our convictions where ever we are...

missourimary
07-08-2010, 10:22 AM
First hand observations: Some of the churches that left had been debating leaving for years. Some never wanted to be UPCI and/or were only in it becasue their pastor was. A handful had been told to "tone it down" or "clean it up" at a sectional or district level and were avoided by other UPC churches in their areas-in other words, their leaving had nothing to do with national or international UPCI decisions, but those at the local level-and those haven't changed. This is true of liberals and conservatives, those that left for WPF and other organized fellowships, as well as those who left for more loosely affiliated groups.

Sam
07-08-2010, 11:26 AM
Some people were planning on leaving and the tv resolution was just something to blame for it.

One pastor (pastor, church, district unnamed) had met with other ministers and planned on establishing the new org. Then when the tv resolution was adopted he stood in his pulpit lamenting how the organization had "left him" and he didn't know what to do but he was going to to spend some time fasting and praying for direction (not divulging that he and others already had an organization in the works). Shortly thereafter he announced that a new group (WPF) had formed and he was being guided by the Lord to become part (a leadership position) of it.

edjen01
07-09-2010, 10:20 PM
Unless the Lord tells them to, of course. :winkgrin

i dont think it was "God" who told them to leave....so I don't think He gets a vote if they decide to return. :)

Kathrynrl13
07-22-2010, 10:23 AM
i dont think it was "God" who told them to leave....so I don't think He gets a vote if they decide to return. :)

Who are we to say weather or not God spoke/lead them or not?

Timmy
07-22-2010, 10:24 AM
Who are we to say weather or not God spoke/lead them or not?

We are people with opinions. :winkgrin

mfblume
07-22-2010, 10:24 AM
Sometimes admitting error by returning is too hard to accomplish since it is like having one's foot too far down one's own throat.

Justin
07-22-2010, 10:28 AM
I spoke with my Pastor and he said there are some who are returning to the UPCi.

Timmy
07-22-2010, 10:29 AM
Sometimes admitting error by returning is too hard to accomplish since it is like having one's foot too far down one's own throat.

Oh ye of little faith!

I spoke with my Pastor and he said there are some who are returning to the UPCi.

See? :heeheehee

DividedThigh
07-22-2010, 10:29 AM
they wont go back, that would require humility and a true holy spirit move, no luck with that, dt

Sister Alvear
07-22-2010, 11:22 AM
I cannot see the main ones returning...However in time the WPF will have their problems too...I see a lot of different holiness standards there too....so it all boils down to the fact we are ALL humans...

Sister Alvear
07-22-2010, 11:26 AM
we must pray for baptisms of love each day...forgiveness...life has lots of ups and downs...lots of people wanting to destroy each other...and our tendency as humans is to get so involved with things that look so big today but tomorrow they seem to look so small....
May God help us to have the right spirit in our pilgrimage....

Rev.Richmond
10-07-2010, 03:33 AM
They won't. Those who orchestrated the move handled it poorly and unethically, and so they would have to lose major face in order to return. I guess it COULD happen, but it's highly unlikely.
People should never paint themselves into a corner.
How so?

Not in one aspect- the WPF ministers are constantly expounding on their version of pastoral authority. They are all about fellowship with other ministers- to the detriment of the body. At all the meetings, etc. it is constantly advertised for all the special 'minister and families only' functions. (This is more than the usual!) Their sermons (generalization, i know- but a lot) are about obeying the pastor, submitting to leadership, loving your pastor, etc., etc. Propagating this type of message where faith is placed in man over God, will only lead to crumbling foundations.
While I believe pastor authority is Biblical (and by that- very clear in its limitations and role), the WPF meetings have gone over-board. Soon, I believe you will start seeing fall-out in church ministry and saints under some of these leaders that have become 'pentecostal popes.'
The cry of 'enough' is bound to start reverberating in some of these churches.
"...messages where faith is placed in man over God" --? I have heard every one of the men on the General Board of the WPF preach numerous times; never once has this been close to being preached. I am fully assured that you have no idea what you even are insinuating to. Your foolish statements are only matched by your ignorance of these things.
Sadly, I pray you are never in leadership over the people of God. With that mind set, you will not be a successful leader at all. Even if all you did was reap from this post, you would have a massive battle ahead, with not much in the way of weapons.

missourimary
10-07-2010, 07:39 AM
How so?


"...messages where faith is placed in man over God" --? I have heard every one of the men on the General Board of the WPF preach numerous times; never once has this been close to being preached. I am fully assured that you have no idea what you even are insinuating to. Your foolish statements are only matched by your ignorance of these things.

Rev Richmond, I think this sort of preaching may be regional. In some areas, it does happen. In other areas the very idea of doing so is offensive. That said, the extensive preaching on pastoral authority, praise of pastors, and so forth happens in certain circles of fellowship in many different denominations, including WPF, UPCI, and independent Apostolic churches. It isn't something exclusive to any one brand of Pentecost, or to Pentecost in general.

Praxeas
10-26-2010, 04:32 PM
If people left the UPCI for the WPF due to what they saw as a slipping away of the standards, etc. then of do you think they'll return since the UPCI began reaffirming its stand for the protection of those issues? I think a lot of people have too many ties to the UPCI to be apart of the WPF which is now very similar. I also believe that many of the moderate/conservative preaches left because they weren't sure where the UPCI was trying to stand on the holiness issues. Now that the UPCI is declaring their stance I think the returns are inevitable. What do you ladies and gentlemen think?
I hope not

Sabby
10-27-2010, 10:40 AM
Maybe they should cast lots! lol

RandyWayne
10-27-2010, 11:44 AM
"...messages where faith is placed in man over God" --? I have heard every one of the men on the General Board of the WPF preach numerous times; never once has this been close to being preached. I am fully assured that you have no idea what you even are insinuating to. Your foolish statements are only matched by your ignorance of these things.
Sadly, I pray you are never in leadership over the people of God. With that mind set, you will not be a successful leader at all. Even if all you did was reap from this post, you would have a massive battle ahead, with not much in the way of weapons.

I am sure that no one (most likely) has never used that phrase but are you not of the mindset that the pastor has ultimate God-given authority in his church and that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and thus anything he says might as well be coming from God Himself? So anything he says might as well be salvational.......

MissBrattified
10-27-2010, 11:53 AM
How so?

By using their affiliation and influence within the UPCI to garner support for a new organization, among other things. The ethical thing would have been to leave the organization independently, making personal objections clear in the appropriate venues (letters to superiors and statements at business meetings in front of everyone). If someone else was interested in following, they could then do so of their own volition and without undue influence.

It's typical, though, that people feel the need to have a large group of supporters before they can act. However, it doesn't illustrate courage.

brianmidwest
11-20-2010, 06:38 PM
Well indeed, it makes so much sense. UPCI lost the right wing to the WPF and in an attempt to coax them back, the lose the left. With little hope of the right wing returning. Sounds like a turkey to me.

Apocrypha
11-26-2010, 06:39 AM
Well indeed, it makes so much sense. UPCI lost the right wing to the WPF and in an attempt to coax them back, the lose the left. With little hope of the right wing returning. Sounds like a turkey to me.

The right wing is still well in place in the UPCI. They just lost those who wanted to be a bishop without having to go through the process of kissing enough preacher booty to get the votes on a district or general level.

Lafon
11-26-2010, 03:53 PM
If people left the UPCI for the WPF due to what they saw as a slipping away of the standards, etc. then of do you think they'll return since the UPCI began reaffirming its stand for the protection of those issues? I think a lot of people have too many ties to the UPCI to be apart of the WPF which is now very similar. I also believe that many of the moderate/conservative preaches left because they weren't sure where the UPCI was trying to stand on the holiness issues. Now that the UPCI is declaring their stance I think the returns are inevitable. What do you ladies and gentlemen think?


Yes, I do believe it is inevitable that those who departed from the UPCI to form the WPF will someday return, but not necessarily because the UPCI began reaffirming its stand for the protection of the (holiness) standards which those who left it saw slipping away.

Indeed, I believe that every Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal group, regardless of the name by which they are known, will soon become a completely unified group, because I believe that the church, the Bride of Christ which He will receive unto Himself at His soon appearance, MUST be without spot, blemish, or wrinkle; that is to say, totally unified.

Sam
11-26-2010, 04:06 PM
Yes, I do believe it is inevitable that those who departed from the UPCI to form the WPF will someday return, but not necessarily because the UPCI began reaffirming its stand for the protection of the (holiness) standards which those who left it saw slipping away.

Indeed, I believe that every Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal group, regardless of the name by which they are known, will soon become a completely unified group, because I believe that the church, the Bride of Christ which He will receive unto Himself at His soon appearance, MUST be without spot, blemish, or wrinkle; that is to say, totally unified.

Perhaps the UPC/PAW/AMF/WPF/ETC will become united as part of the great harlot during the tribulation period?

As far as the second thought, God HAS a Church, and in His sight She IS without spot, blemish, or wrinkle because She has been washed in His blood and is clothed in His holiness.

deacon blues
12-09-2010, 02:26 PM
The Lamb's Book of Life will be written on a 3x5 card...

houston
12-09-2010, 03:31 PM
The Lamb's Book of Life will be written on a 3x5 card...

:jolly

Sabby
12-10-2010, 10:25 PM
Perhaps the UPC/PAW/AMF/WPF/ETC will become united as part of the great harlot during the tribulation period?

As far as the second thought, God HAS a Church, and in His sight She IS without spot, blemish, or wrinkle because She has been washed in His blood and is clothed in His holiness.

AMEN!!!!!!:santathumb

wpfpreacher
12-11-2010, 11:55 AM
Some may feel the need to return to upci, but it will probably be the exception and not the rule. I attended the first meeting in Tulsa, OK not knowing just what to do after the upci's general conference in Tampa. I had some other issues that I had concerning the leadership of the upci, but the issue of television was the deciding factor for me to leave this organization I had been apart of since being born again in February 4, 1973.

I went just to see what this new organization was all about. Thi greatest concern that I had was the spirit of the meeting. If it would have been a upci basting meeting (and there have been meeting like that) I would not have join this group, I could have went independant, but I like to belong to an organization that there are brother who believe what I believe. I was impressed by how the meeting went. UPCI was not the focal point of the meeting. The leaders did not even bring up the vote that took place in Tampa. I was going to go home and just think about it, when I realized that I liked what was said and what I felt. I joined the last day of the meeting and as they say, "the rest is history".

It is not the intent of wpf to evangelize though in the upci. The leadership discouages it and though I have not been into social media, I have heard some of the untrues that
have been circulated concerning some of the leaders of the wpf. Social media is good if one does not let it take the place of a telephone as a new way to gossip.

I do not know about what Bro. French has done, because I have not talked to him. Wpf does not require that a minister give up his upci license to join the wpf. A minister in the wpf can belong to other organizations, so maybe Bro. French never gave up his license in the upci to begin with.

I am not a disgruntle member of the upci. I have many friend who are still with the upci, even my pastor who I sat under for 23 years. I believe in truth as declared by the Bible and if anyone believe the same he or she is my brother or sister. There are quite a few upci ministers who attend our conventions and we welcome them to enjoy our services.

To be apostolic a person has to be followers of what the Apostles taught and preached. My roots go back further that when two organization came together to form the United Petecostal Church. It goes further back than 1917 when those, who through studying. believed what the Bible said concerning baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and was literally kick out of the Assembly of God conference. It goes back futher than azusa street. It goes back to when the Apostle started the New Testament Church. Remember that those who establish this church were taught by Jesus himself when he walked the earth and after He rose from the dead. Jesus spent 40 days teaching them about this glorious message of Repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. From that time until now there has always been believers who have preached this message even though sometimes the numbers have
been few. I is our responsibility to continue what the Apostles of the first century taught.

God Bless
wpfpreacher

houston
12-11-2010, 03:34 PM
Some may feel the need to return to upci, but it will probably be the exception and not the rule. I attended the first meeting in Tulsa, OK not knowing just what to do after the upci's general conference in Tampa. I had some other issues that I had concerning the leadership of the upci, but the issue of television was the deciding factor for me to leave this organization I had been apart of since being born again in February 4, 1973.

I went just to see what this new organization was all about. Thi greatest concern that I had was the spirit of the meeting. If it would have been a upci basting meeting (and there have been meeting like that) I would not have join this group, I could have went independant, but I like to belong to an organization that there are brother who believe what I believe. I was impressed by how the meeting went. UPCI was not the focal point of the meeting. The leaders did not even bring up the vote that took place in Tampa. I was going to go home and just think about it, when I realized that I liked what was said and what I felt. I joined the last day of the meeting and as they say, "the rest is history".

It is not the intent of wpf to evangelize though in the upci. The leadership discouages it and though I have not been into social media, I have heard some of the untrues that
have been circulated concerning some of the leaders of the wpf. Social media is good if one does not let it take the place of a telephone as a new way to gossip.

I do not know about what Bro. French has done, because I have not talked to him. Wpf does not require that a minister give up his upci license to join the wpf. A minister in the wpf can belong to other organizations, so maybe Bro. French never gave up his license in the upci to begin with.

I am not a disgruntle member of the upci. I have many friend who are still with the upci, even my pastor who I sat under for 23 years. I believe in truth as declared by the Bible and if anyone believe the same he or she is my brother or sister. There are quite a few upci ministers who attend our conventions and we welcome them to enjoy our services.

To be apostolic a person has to be followers of what the Apostles taught and preached. My roots go back further that when two organization came together to form the United Petecostal Church. It goes further back than 1917 when those, who through studying. believed what the Bible said concerning baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and was literally kick out of the Assembly of God conference. It goes back futher than azusa street. It goes back to when the Apostle started the New Testament Church. Remember that those who establish this church were taught by Jesus himself when he walked the earth and after He rose from the dead. Jesus spent 40 days teaching them about this glorious message of Repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. From that time until now there has always been believers who have preached this message even though sometimes the numbers have
been few. I is our responsibility to continue what the Apostles of the first century taught.

God Bless
wpfpreacher

ARE you serious????

brianmidwest
12-11-2010, 05:14 PM
:blinkuhmmmmmm?

Sabby
12-13-2010, 05:35 PM
A pastor earns love and respect, it can not be dictated.

Interesting post. I browsed an online christian ministry job site a few months ago and discovered a job position for an assistant pastor for a WPF church plant in my home town. The only job descriptions included were that the candidate needed to be obedient and submissive to the pastor (no joke).
It's crazy.

KeptByTheWord
12-13-2010, 06:49 PM
we must pray for baptisms of love each day...forgiveness...life has lots of ups and downs...lots of people wanting to destroy each other...and our tendency as humans is to get so involved with things that look so big today but tomorrow they seem to look so small....
May God help us to have the right spirit in our pilgrimage....

I really like this Sis. Alvear - wonderful spirit that you have. As soon as we find a perfect man, maybe we'll find a perfect church, and we'll have a perfect organization and we'll all live "happily ever after.." NOT!!! None of us are perfect, and so such a thing will never be possible. The spirit Sis. Alvear spoke of will be what helps us find our way to heaven.... with or without an organization...

CC1
01-03-2011, 10:19 PM
The right wing is still well in place in the UPCI. They just lost those who wanted to be a bishop without having to go through the process of kissing enough preacher booty to get the votes on a district or general level.

ROFLMBO!!!!!:heeheehee

Apocrypha
01-09-2011, 03:34 PM
ARE you serious????

As cancer.

Carpenter
01-17-2011, 06:36 PM
Cmon guys, does it really matter? We have guys like Letsgowinsouls, downs in areas where UPC churches call in preachers who aren't in the organization anymore and could care less about their backgrounds. Those lines have been blurred and in lots of cases, obliterated. :D

As evidence to what is happening in our city, it doesn't matter one single whit, the END will always justify the MEANS, whatever it takes...Go out and give beef jerky, ipods, fruit snacks, digital cameras to the impoverished so they will come to church. Sure it goes against every nerve of our ethics, but who gives a rip...it put butts in the seats. yay!

CC1
01-18-2011, 09:41 PM
Cmon guys, does it really matter? We have guys like Letsgowinsouls, downs in areas where UPC churches call in preachers who aren't in the organization anymore and could care less about their backgrounds. Those lines have been blurred and in lots of cases, obliterated. :D

As evidence to what is happening in our city, it doesn't matter one single whit, the END will always justify the MEANS, whatever it takes...Go out and give beef jerky, ipods, fruit snacks, digital cameras to the impoverished so they will come to church. Sure it goes against every nerve of our ethics, but who gives a rip...it put butts in the seats. yay!

Forget the ipods. I am holding out for an ipad.

GraceAmazing
01-19-2011, 07:59 AM
Forget the ipods. I am holding out for an ipad.

Me too CC1!!! Me too!!! In the words of that funny 'ole donkey in that sure-to-send-you-to-the pit movie: PICK ME, PICK ME, PICK ME!!! :lol

brianmidwest
01-19-2011, 10:33 AM
So WEC is giving out IPADS? So that's where all of the SFC money goes!

mrnbcox
01-27-2011, 01:34 PM
Nope. Majority of UPC is already heading the wrong way. Sad story. They had one of the best evangelism worldwide efforts going in pentecost! Much of UPCI church's are starting to look & sound & have no power like many charismatics today.

But the CHURCH is still going up! The gates of hell shall not prevail

Dagwood
01-27-2011, 01:43 PM
All I gotta say is corporate church politics is as bad government politics, if not worse. The bigger the church/organization, the bigger the problems 'cause the focus turns from saving the world to saving the church/organziational body. God help us!

Sabby
02-05-2011, 10:50 PM
Nope.

Agreed. Power and notoriety are hard to pass up.

Jason B
02-05-2011, 11:07 PM
All I gotta say is corporate church politics is as bad government politics, if not worse. The bigger the church/organization, the bigger the problems 'cause the focus turns from saving the world to saving the church/organziational body. God help us!

God Save The Superintendent?:D

Trouvere
02-06-2011, 09:33 PM
If people left the UPCI for the WPF due to what they saw as a slipping away of the standards, etc. then of do you think they'll return since the UPCI began reaffirming its stand for the protection of those issues? I think a lot of people have too many ties to the UPCI to be apart of the WPF which is now very similar. I also believe that many of the moderate/conservative preaches left because they weren't sure where the UPCI was trying to stand on the holiness issues. Now that the UPCI is declaring their stance I think the returns are inevitable. What do you ladies and gentlemen think?

I think it may be for the reason of little yellow envelopes.:icecream
floating away in the breeze....

Jason B
02-06-2011, 11:03 PM
I don't think they will ever go back as a whole, simply because of "positions". I agree that the two orginizations are all but mirror images of each other, whatever doctrinal differences there are within the WPF and UPC already exist within the UPC itself, they are minor differences.

I hope I am wrong, I think the more unity we have the stronger God's church is. However, I am neither UPC or WPF, if fact I don't belong to any denomination, denominations simply divide God's people over trivial issues and personal preferences.

:highfive

qzcoach
09-17-2011, 01:22 PM
some will return. I don't think they left because of the standards. I think they left because they didn't want to be under the authority of the UPC and I doubt they'll be satisfied in the WPF for long. There are always exceptions, but real men and women fix problems, they don't go running away and create competitive organizations. I am certainly no apologist for the UPC, but I know people, and I know rebellion. The reason they preach so much in the WPF about supporting the pastor has more to do with fear of losing members to the UPC or their own guilt about leaving the body than genuine ministering to saints.

canam
09-17-2011, 03:22 PM
:foottap:foottap

John 1:17
10-04-2011, 07:49 AM
God Bless the WPF, daughter work of the UPC...


:D

Sister Alvear
10-15-2011, 07:00 AM
May God help us all to win souls...

trialedbyfire
10-26-2011, 07:05 PM
Perhaps the UPC/PAW/AMF/WPF/ETC will become united as part of the great harlot during the tribulation period?

As far as the second thought, God HAS a Church, and in His sight She IS without spot, blemish, or wrinkle because She has been washed in His blood and is clothed in His holiness.

PAW will jump first.

The Board of Bishops is meeting soon (this week I think?). So I have been hearing to discuss adopting the Roman "mitre" (the pope caps) and the staff, and all that foolishness. It will make our annual conventions look like a meeting of shouting catholic rejects.

I'm expecting the organization to adopt these traits and for some of the FEW conservative Bishops and their councils to consider leaving. They are also voting on whether or not the org will continue to stand for three-step salvation. I fully expect if they decide to no longer preach three-step many conservatives in PAW will leave.

MawMaw
10-26-2011, 08:52 PM
May God help us all to win souls...

Amen Sister. If we are continually fighting one another, how is God pleased and how can a good work be done?

Jay
10-28-2011, 01:40 AM
I would have to do some research on this as I have heard some disturbing things that the PAW is starting to trend toward. I do know that they are not the same organization that they were in the days of Bishop Haywood.

trialedbyfire
10-28-2011, 10:45 AM
I would have to do some research on this as I have heard some disturbing things that the PAW is starting to trend toward. I do know that they are not the same organization that they were in the days of Bishop Haywood.

Just come to our convention. I love the organization as a whole, great preachers and a great legacy, and soem very faithful people at the local church level... but there's way to much foolishness and it's not creeping in anymore it's just there and making itself comfortable.

Jay
10-29-2011, 12:23 AM
I would like to do that, but I just went to Kansas City and took four days off of work. I will not be able to do anything like that again for a number of months. I will be praying for you and the whole PAW.

Melody
10-30-2011, 05:44 AM
no article is to be heard that would bring division to the body.... they knew this would be a dividing factor, competitive? no people definitely know where both stand, choices are made.

Steve Epley
10-30-2011, 01:52 PM
The PAW is gone. The organization of Haywood and Tobin no longer exists.

Jay
10-30-2011, 08:10 PM
Bro. Epley, I understand some of that, but if you do not mind, could you elaborate a bit on that for me. I am not quite sure what all has happened that caused the fall of the PAW. I am always seeking to learn more. They are a part of my history, due to the fact that I used to belong to a group that came out of them back in the 20s, and it would be educational.

PraiseHymn
11-02-2011, 07:35 PM
Bro. Epley, I understand some of that, but if you do not mind, could you elaborate a bit on that for me. I am not quite sure what all has happened that caused the fall of the PAW. I am always seeking to learn more. They are a part of my history, due to the fact that I used to belong to a group that came out of them back in the 20s, and it would be educational.


What happened in the PAW is no different that what happened (or is currently happening) to most conservative Holiness churches. Holiness is no longer preached. Instead, everyone is following after the almighty dollar instead of God Almighty.

* Inward holiness is not preached anymore.

* Outward standards arent preached anymore.

* Trinitarians crept in and started to preach on the local and national level which caused an outcry amongst the churches that still hold to the truth.

* Typical scandals involving money, sex, and drugs (not saying that I know for sure of someone who used drugs, I just assume on that one) all of this caused people to be hurt and leave the organization and vow never to go back to strict holiness.

* Apostolic Doctrine is certainly NOT being preached in the churches. Its rare to hear the word Apostolic in a PAW church now UNLESS the word "Apostolic" is in the church name. A lot of PAW churches took Pentecostal or Apostolic out of there church name and renamed them Family Worship Center or "Christian Church".

* PAW does not want to be exclusive anymore when it comes to the Name of Jesus but inclusive of all who call themselves Christian.

* The title "Jesus Only" is at the top of the PAW National Seal that can be found on banners and official paper. Well, the liberals wanted to snatch that out and leave it blank and the conservatives had a fit.

* Jesus Name Baptism still takes place in all PAW churches however some now do it sporadicaly while others (i.e. Noel Jones Church) wont say it aloud over the pulpit but they wait until you get to the altar and personaly ask you if you want to be baptised in Jesus Name (I witness this for myself at a service there).

COOLJC (Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ) has gone this route too which is the second largest black Oneness Pentecostal organization. The problem in my community (speaking of my race, my people, african americans), we have a problem with obediance and we love kepping up with the Jones's (i.e. if the mega trinitarian churches that come on tv speak in tongues and shout and dont have a dress code, why should we....Im gonna put my pants on and dare the Bishop to say something to me...I wont ever give a dime to this church again, you watch, I'll fix him). Dont tell us how to live for God (we got that already), dont tell us to be faithful to church (I will come when I want to come and if you dont speak to me I'll have a fit and you might not see me for a month) and please dont restrict me in what I want to wear (I'll put my pants on, earrings and paint my face and sit in the choir stand cause I felt like it and if you preach standards, I'll say your not preaching to me, thats only for ministers wives to follow). This is how I grew up alllllllll my life and I had to get outta churches that would stand for nothing and fall for anything. (sorry, not putting my race down, but since we are talking about a black religious organization, I thought I'd share from the inside the true problem). I just realised I might have just described a lot of churches that are black, white, latino and all other races......boy are we living in the last days.

Bottom line, as in any orgnization, PAW has become very political.

While my current church is now WPF (Formerly UPCI), when I travel I tend to go to PAW churches to get the "soulful" worship service I miss sometimes at my church. I have seen everything under the sun in most of the churches I visited and even the ones that keep the standard, when I come back and visit you can see the outward change.

Bottom line, when holiness stops being preached from the pulpit, it gives the membership the "go ahead" to do what they want. Now let me run outta here before all the liberals start to stone me......hey Im just the messanger.....

Jay
11-03-2011, 01:21 AM
Thanks for explaining it. I was afraid that you were going to say that. I hold that with the Bible. "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world."

CC1
11-06-2011, 10:30 PM
What happened in the PAW is no different that what happened (or is currently happening) to most conservative Holiness churches. Holiness is no longer preached. Instead, everyone is following after the almighty dollar instead of God Almighty.

* Inward holiness is not preached anymore.

* Outward standards arent preached anymore.

* Trinitarians crept in and started to preach on the local and national level which caused an outcry amongst the churches that still hold to the truth.

* Typical scandals involving money, sex, and drugs (not saying that I know for sure of someone who used drugs, I just assume on that one) all of this caused people to be hurt and leave the organization and vow never to go back to strict holiness.

* Apostolic Doctrine is certainly NOT being preached in the churches. Its rare to hear the word Apostolic in a PAW church now UNLESS the word "Apostolic" is in the church name. A lot of PAW churches took Pentecostal or Apostolic out of there church name and renamed them Family Worship Center or "Christian Church".

* PAW does not want to be exclusive anymore when it comes to the Name of Jesus but inclusive of all who call themselves Christian.

* The title "Jesus Only" is at the top of the PAW National Seal that can be found on banners and official paper. Well, the liberals wanted to snatch that out and leave it blank and the conservatives had a fit.

* Jesus Name Baptism still takes place in all PAW churches however some now do it sporadicaly while others (i.e. Noel Jones Church) wont say it aloud over the pulpit but they wait until you get to the altar and personaly ask you if you want to be baptised in Jesus Name (I witness this for myself at a service there).

COOLJC (Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ) has gone this route too which is the second largest black Oneness Pentecostal organization. The problem in my community (speaking of my race, my people, african americans), we have a problem with obediance and we love kepping up with the Jones's (i.e. if the mega trinitarian churches that come on tv speak in tongues and shout and dont have a dress code, why should we....Im gonna put my pants on and dare the Bishop to say something to me...I wont ever give a dime to this church again, you watch, I'll fix him). Dont tell us how to live for God (we got that already), dont tell us to be faithful to church (I will come when I want to come and if you dont speak to me I'll have a fit and you might not see me for a month) and please dont restrict me in what I want to wear (I'll put my pants on, earrings and paint my face and sit in the choir stand cause I felt like it and if you preach standards, I'll say your not preaching to me, thats only for ministers wives to follow). This is how I grew up alllllllll my life and I had to get outta churches that would stand for nothing and fall for anything. (sorry, not putting my race down, but since we are talking about a black religious organization, I thought I'd share from the inside the true problem). I just realised I might have just described a lot of churches that are black, white, latino and all other races......boy are we living in the last days.

Bottom line, as in any orgnization, PAW has become very political.

While my current church is now WPF (Formerly UPCI), when I travel I tend to go to PAW churches to get the "soulful" worship service I miss sometimes at my church. I have seen everything under the sun in most of the churches I visited and even the ones that keep the standard, when I come back and visit you can see the outward change.

Bottom line, when holiness stops being preached from the pulpit, it gives the membership the "go ahead" to do what they want. Now let me run outta here before all the liberals start to stone me......hey Im just the messanger.....

PraiseHymn,

Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps a lot of the people you say have left the outward dress code have done so because they believe it is extra biblical rather than because they "have a problem with obedience"?

trialedbyfire
11-07-2011, 04:01 PM
Bro. Epley, I understand some of that, but if you do not mind, could you elaborate a bit on that for me. I am not quite sure what all has happened that caused the fall of the PAW. I am always seeking to learn more. They are a part of my history, due to the fact that I used to belong to a group that came out of them back in the 20s, and it would be educational.

There's a free for all in the organization, so much so that we're hearing that there are certain Bishops that no longer even teach that tongues is the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (something so basic to Pentecostal Doctrine).

I'm not an ultra-con when it comes to standards, but I do believe in a separation and I do believe in outward holiness. My biggest beef with the organization isn't the standards, it's the lack doctrinal integrity. There's a lot of compromise on just about anything and everything. I honestly don't know how long P.A.W. will actually remain oneness. If the more conservative pastors and Bishops (like my own pastor) leave, then it'll only be a year or two before they'll openly allow F, S, HG preachers to join, preach, and teach. Yes there are rumors that they already are, but not the org isn't open about it and denies it. I love P.A.W., I got saved in a P.A.W. church. Something has got to change quick though, or it's going to split, real soon.

trialedbyfire
11-07-2011, 04:16 PM
PraiseHymn,

Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps a lot of the people you say have left the outward dress code have done so because they believe it is extra biblical rather than because they "have a problem with obedience"?

I've been in and out of P.A.W. for almost a decade now. I can assure you, that the Bible is the least of some P.A.W. member's concerns. The organization is consumed with pride, young preachers that will do anything for money, and honestly straight up rebellion, for the sake of rebellion. There is a serious desire amongst some of the major leaders to go the route of the COGIC and other organizations and turn our conventions into some sort of Megafest II, by bringing in big name non-apostolic preachers that draw large crowds to receive large offerings. They're very open about that. Preachers like Bis. Noel Jones and even our presiding bishop, Bis. Charles Ellis already bring them to his church for the sake of drawing crowds. Turns out Apostolic preachers don't draw in million dollar offerings. They have this desire to be on the Word Network and hang out with the TBN crowd. That's the direction their dragging us in. It has nothing... absolutely nothing to do with the Bible.

On the flip side, being a young active individual in my District council, I see a lot of young preachers (aged 16 to 25) following their leaders and copy-catting the same big time megapastors trying to get engagements and become the next youtube-sensation preacher (yes there are youtube sensation preachers these days). There's a prideful nasty culture that is developing in P.A.W. churches and the African American megachurch scene as a whole. The organization as a whole is falling simply because nobody is instilling a love of Bible truth and a love for people in those who have been called to ministry. They could care less about the Apostolic Doctrine, Holiness, and the people's true needs, they just want a preaching engagement because the megachurch culture has turned preachers into celebrities.

trialedbyfire
11-07-2011, 04:20 PM
I would like to do that, but I just went to Kansas City and took four days off of work. I will not be able to do anything like that again for a number of months. I will be praying for you and the whole PAW.

Despite some of the craziness you may or may not see/hear, it's a great time always. It will be in New Orleans next year. Don't have exact dates but it's always late July thru early August. The Pentecostal Churches of the Apostolic Faith (my second home organization and a split off group from PAW) will be having theirs the week before in New Orleans as well and they'll be holding joint services. There's been talk of the two organizations reuniting... doubt that will probably never happen though unless PAW get's it's act together. God-willing I'll be there for most of both conventions.

Steve Epley
11-07-2011, 07:58 PM
Bro. Epley, I understand some of that, but if you do not mind, could you elaborate a bit on that for me. I am not quite sure what all has happened that caused the fall of the PAW. I am always seeking to learn more. They are a part of my history, due to the fact that I used to belong to a group that came out of them back in the 20s, and it would be educational.

After the compromise on the standards. The false doctrine of unconditional eternal security made inroads among some of the leadership. Then they began to use Trinitarians in their meetings. Go to their webpage it contains NOTHING about baptism in Jesus Name nor the Oneness of God the foundation of the organization. It's leadership has led it into apostasy.

Steve Epley
11-07-2011, 08:00 PM
What happened in the PAW is no different that what happened (or is currently happening) to most conservative Holiness churches. Holiness is no longer preached. Instead, everyone is following after the almighty dollar instead of God Almighty.

* Inward holiness is not preached anymore.

* Outward standards arent preached anymore.

* Trinitarians crept in and started to preach on the local and national level which caused an outcry amongst the churches that still hold to the truth.

* Typical scandals involving money, sex, and drugs (not saying that I know for sure of someone who used drugs, I just assume on that one) all of this caused people to be hurt and leave the organization and vow never to go back to strict holiness.

* Apostolic Doctrine is certainly NOT being preached in the churches. Its rare to hear the word Apostolic in a PAW church now UNLESS the word "Apostolic" is in the church name. A lot of PAW churches took Pentecostal or Apostolic out of there church name and renamed them Family Worship Center or "Christian Church".

* PAW does not want to be exclusive anymore when it comes to the Name of Jesus but inclusive of all who call themselves Christian.

* The title "Jesus Only" is at the top of the PAW National Seal that can be found on banners and official paper. Well, the liberals wanted to snatch that out and leave it blank and the conservatives had a fit.

* Jesus Name Baptism still takes place in all PAW churches however some now do it sporadicaly while others (i.e. Noel Jones Church) wont say it aloud over the pulpit but they wait until you get to the altar and personaly ask you if you want to be baptised in Jesus Name (I witness this for myself at a service there).

COOLJC (Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ) has gone this route too which is the second largest black Oneness Pentecostal organization. The problem in my community (speaking of my race, my people, african americans), we have a problem with obediance and we love kepping up with the Jones's (i.e. if the mega trinitarian churches that come on tv speak in tongues and shout and dont have a dress code, why should we....Im gonna put my pants on and dare the Bishop to say something to me...I wont ever give a dime to this church again, you watch, I'll fix him). Dont tell us how to live for God (we got that already), dont tell us to be faithful to church (I will come when I want to come and if you dont speak to me I'll have a fit and you might not see me for a month) and please dont restrict me in what I want to wear (I'll put my pants on, earrings and paint my face and sit in the choir stand cause I felt like it and if you preach standards, I'll say your not preaching to me, thats only for ministers wives to follow). This is how I grew up alllllllll my life and I had to get outta churches that would stand for nothing and fall for anything. (sorry, not putting my race down, but since we are talking about a black religious organization, I thought I'd share from the inside the true problem). I just realised I might have just described a lot of churches that are black, white, latino and all other races......boy are we living in the last days.

Bottom line, as in any orgnization, PAW has become very political.

While my current church is now WPF (Formerly UPCI), when I travel I tend to go to PAW churches to get the "soulful" worship service I miss sometimes at my church. I have seen everything under the sun in most of the churches I visited and even the ones that keep the standard, when I come back and visit you can see the outward change.

Bottom line, when holiness stops being preached from the pulpit, it gives the membership the "go ahead" to do what they want. Now let me run outta here before all the liberals start to stone me......hey Im just the messanger.....

Sad but true.

Steve Epley
11-07-2011, 08:03 PM
The PAW is gone I would hope those who still believe the message would leave and form their own group that believes the doctrine.

Jay
11-07-2011, 11:00 PM
If things run ture to form, only a few will leave, and the rest will fight to save it, but they will end up losing their churches in the fight. That is the way that it seems to go in every denom/org that has ever existed in Christianity.

kclee4jc
11-08-2011, 03:35 AM
After the compromise on the standards. The false doctrine of unconditional eternal security made inroads among some of the leadership. Then they began to use Trinitarians in their meetings. Go to their webpage it contains NOTHING about baptism in Jesus Name nor the Oneness of God the foundation of the organization. It's leadership has led it into apostasy.

Just listened to a cd of Bro. Bean yesterday, oh my what a man of God! He said that almost all false doctrine he has encountered somehow leads to eternal security. The devil will do anything to keep people from really repenting and giving their lives to God.

trialedbyfire
11-08-2011, 10:52 AM
The PAW is gone I would hope those who still believe the message would leave and form their own group that believes the doctrine.

I can 100% assure you Bishop CE Johnson is on his way out, and a few others. I can't speak for Sherman Merritt, and some of the other conservative Bishops, but I know Bishop CJ has had his foot out the door for years, and this year our congregation is preparing mentally for the very real possibility that we're leaving. The org is hanging on to dear life. The fact is the majority of P.A.W.'s hardest and most passionate workers come out of the conservative districts (where people are actually living holy) if they leave the organization crumbles, the libs don't realize it but the mega-church members that just come to church for entertainment really aren't interested in the well being of what we know as the "mother church".

trialedbyfire
11-08-2011, 10:59 AM
After the compromise on the standards. The false doctrine of unconditional eternal security made inroads among some of the leadership. Then they began to use Trinitarians in their meetings. Go to their webpage it contains NOTHING about baptism in Jesus Name nor the Oneness of God the foundation of the organization. It's leadership has led it into apostasy.

This is true. This added to the Bishops who no longer believe in Acts 2:38 being the plan of salvation and those who no longer believe that tongues is the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Never thought I'd see the day when Apostolic churches were leading new converts in the sinners prayer and then telling them they're saved...

Steve Epley
11-08-2011, 11:08 AM
I can 100% assure you Bishop CE Johnson is on his way out, and a few others. I can't speak for Sherman Merritt, and some of the other conservative Bishops, but I know Bishop CJ has had his foot out the door for years, and this year our congregation is preparing mentally for the very real possibility that we're leaving. The org is hanging on to dear life. The fact is the majority of P.A.W.'s hardest and most passionate workers come out of the conservative districts (where people are actually living holy) if they leave the organization crumbles, the libs don't realize it but the mega-church members that just come to church for entertainment really aren't interested in the well being of what we know as the "mother church".

I pleaded with Bishop Melvin Boyd years ago to leave. He was a great new birth preacher and for the PAW had a holiness church. I have no idea what Micheal believes?

trialedbyfire
11-08-2011, 12:58 PM
I pleaded with Bishop Melvin Boyd years ago to leave. He was a great new birth preacher and for the PAW had a holiness church. I have no idea what Micheal believes?

You're refering to District Elder Melvin Boyd of Nashville?

Believe it or not there are still a lot of good Water and Spirit preachers in the PAW that don't compromise on the New Birth. I'm under one of them.

trialedbyfire
11-08-2011, 09:44 PM
I pleaded with Bishop Melvin Boyd years ago to leave. He was a great new birth preacher and for the PAW had a holiness church. I have no idea what Micheal believes?

Sorry I got confused because Elder Michael Boyd now pastors Bishop Melvin Boyd's church and Bishop Melvin Boyd's oldest son who carries his name has his own church. As far as I know District Elder Melvin Boyd (Bishop Boyd's eldest son) still preaches water and spirit. I can't say that I know for a fact that Elder Michael Boyd does.

Jay
11-08-2011, 10:19 PM
This is true. This added to the Bishops who no longer believe in Acts 2:38 being the plan of salvation and those who no longer believe that tongues is the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Never thought I'd see the day when Apostolic churches were leading new converts in the sinners prayer and then telling them they're saved...



I do not like saying this, but if that is all they are doing, then they are no longer Pentecostal, much less Apostolic.

trialedbyfire
11-09-2011, 09:38 AM
I do not like saying this, but if that is all they are doing, then they are no longer Pentecostal, much less Apostolic.

I totally agree. From what I've heard there's only one Bishop that doesn't believe tongues is the evidence of the Holy Ghost. Of course, nobody named who that individual is and there's no count for how many believe that baptism is necessary and how many don't either.

Jay
11-09-2011, 02:43 PM
Hopefully, it is only a rumor and has no truth in it. Not saying that there is not any, but one must always hope for the best.

PraiseHymn
11-17-2011, 12:06 PM
Believe it or not there are still a lot of good Water and Spirit preachers in the PAW that don't compromise on the New Birth. I'm under one of them.

Oh yes, cause when I go home to visit mom in Nashville TN, I regularly go to morning and evening worship with Bishop Merritt Greater Christ Temple, and when I lived in Charlotte NC, I use to go all the time to Calvary Christian Church of the Apostolic Faith Bishop Edward C. Roberts (now deceased). Lawd knows they were straight up Apostolic and told you in every service "Jehova Jr. does not exist neither is anyone playing musical chairs for the one throne in heaven....its Jesus Only that sits on the throne". Man I sure do miss him. Bishop Sherman Merrit is letter the congregation go wayward a bit, but I can only tell you from a visitors perspective. I know Bishop Johnson out of the DC area is sho nuff bonifide Apostolic....There are a few left that keep The Whole Truth near and dear to their heart....

Bishop Tom
12-26-2011, 12:21 AM
I can't imagine that many would return to the Mother, as many cords were broken and many bridges burned. I would like to see it happen, but I believe the Cons out weigh the Pros.

trialedbyfire
01-02-2012, 04:18 PM
Oh yes, cause when I go home to visit mom in Nashville TN, I regularly go to morning and evening worship with Bishop Merritt Greater Christ Temple, and when I lived in Charlotte NC, I use to go all the time to Calvary Christian Church of the Apostolic Faith Bishop Edward C. Roberts (now deceased). Lawd knows they were straight up Apostolic and told you in every service "Jehova Jr. does not exist neither is anyone playing musical chairs for the one throne in heaven....its Jesus Only that sits on the throne". Man I sure do miss him. Bishop Sherman Merrit is letter the congregation go wayward a bit, but I can only tell you from a visitors perspective. I know Bishop Johnson out of the DC area is sho nuff bonifide Apostolic....There are a few left that keep The Whole Truth near and dear to their heart....

I'm under Bishop Johnson, I can assure you we're still holding on to the truth with no intentions of letting go. I can't say anything about Merrits church because I've never been there, I hear him preach every year though because he comes to the DC area often. I loved watching Bishop Roberts preach before he passed. I know the Diocesan of North Carolina's council still teaches Water and Spirit... and my favorite North Carolina Apostolic preacher Dist. Elder Reddgo Long still holds on to the faith.

seekerman
01-02-2012, 05:41 PM
The WPF, and to a lessor extent the UPC, suffers from the shallow teaching of the oneness sect in general and the people follow blindly and suffer for it.

Honestly, the only minister I know who takes the bible verse by verse and teaches is Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel. While I may not agree with everything he teaches, it's refreshing to actually hear verse after verse of the bible being taught instead of a preacher taking one or two verses and preaching from them.

The WPF is just another of thousands of Christian organizations which preach allegiance to an organization instead of God. No, the WPF will never return to the UPC for there's too much power to be had in those man-made organizations and they'll continue their shallow teaching least the people hear and reject an organization based sect.

trialedbyfire
01-02-2012, 05:46 PM
The WPF, and to a lessor extent the UPC, suffers from the shallow teaching of the oneness sect in general and the people follow blindly and suffer for it.

Honestly, the only minister I know who takes the bible verse by verse and teaches is Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel. While I may not agree with everything he teaches, it's refreshing to actually hear verse after verse of the bible being taught instead of a preacher taking one or two verses and preaching from them.

The WPF is just another of thousands of Christian organizations which preach allegiance to an organization instead of God. No, the WPF will never return to the UPC for there's too much power to be had in those man-made organizations and they'll continue their shallow teaching least the people hear and reject an organization based sect.

Thanks for making general blanket statements about two whole major religious organizations. It's greatly appreciated.

AreYouReady?
01-02-2012, 06:23 PM
I believe that the Holy Ghost leads sincere seekers of truth to truth regardless of what church they attend...yes, even new born babies in Christ. A sincere seeker will know inside their innermost being that there is something more than what is being taught. Some of these people will be accused of being "church hoppers". What matters most is that people listen to the Holy Ghost and follow God.

God is still leading and guiding me after 29 years of walking in the Spirit...and by no means have I attained perfection yet.

seekerman
01-02-2012, 06:28 PM
Thanks for making general blanket statements about two whole major religious organizations. It's greatly appreciated.

"Major religious organizations"

:slaphappy

returnman
01-03-2012, 08:16 AM
Thanks for making general blanket statements about two whole major religious organizations. It's greatly appreciated.

There are followers of organizations without a doubt. The WPF and UPC are no exception and probably even more so given the demands put forth. No brainer there.

Neck
01-03-2012, 02:57 PM
So only 1948, 1965, 1977, 1985 relevant. As for me and my house who cares!

Loosewheel32
02-18-2014, 06:13 PM
I guess in heaven there will be divided, separate territories for the saints. Over here is UPC, over there is PAW and etc. Children of God should fellowship and band together. Of course there are exceptions if one group lets down on holiness, doctrine or etc.

Sabby
02-19-2014, 08:50 AM
Nope.

Yep

Sabby
04-24-2014, 09:39 AM
Renda, by "yep" I meant I agree with you! :smack

committed
06-04-2014, 11:36 AM
I'm sure God looks upon all the debate and division with a heavy heart, and longs for us to get along and just go to work in the harvest field, instead of constantly talking against the 'other' organization. There is no perfect one, because they are all comprised of human individuals who are not all perfect. As long as they preached the whole truth and live Godly, we need to work together - not against one another!! We have good friends in just about all the organizations and independent. We don't put ourselves above them because we are UPC.
My husband has held license with UPC for around 50+ years, and I will say that as an organization it has done and is doing more worldwide than others. There is more fellowship locally and statewide (Sunday School, Youth, Ladies etc) than the others, which I count valuable to a church. The Lord is no respector of persons or organizations. He is coming "for those that look for Him" and have made themselves ready.

FlamingZword
06-04-2014, 01:57 PM
I'm sure God looks upon all the debate and division with a heavy heart, and longs for us to get along and just go to work in the harvest field, instead of constantly talking against the 'other' organization. There is no perfect one, because they are all comprised of human individuals who are not all perfect. As long as they preached the whole truth and live Godly, we need to work together - not against one another!! We have good friends in just about all the organizations and independent. We don't put ourselves above them because we are UPC.
My husband has held license with UPC for around 50+ years, and I will say that as an organization it has done and is doing more worldwide than others. There is more fellowship locally and statewide (Sunday School, Youth, Ladies etc) than the others, which I count valuable to a church. The Lord is no respector of persons or organizations. He is coming "for those that look for Him" and have made themselves ready.

Most of us do not have a problem with the UPCI preaching the truth, the big problem we do have is with all the added extra man-made rules the UPCI has created.
We fully support Acts 2:38 and all the scriptures, but what we surely do not support is all those pharisaic rules that are nowhere in the Bible.

bkstokes
06-05-2014, 08:52 PM
He is coming "for those that look for Him" and have made themselves ready.


Have made themselves ready??? Works works works

aegsm76
06-06-2014, 09:27 PM
Sounds like a reference to Rev. 19:7, to me.

AllScripture
02-17-2017, 06:45 PM
Yardley - I am new to AFF. I found your comments of interest since it is what I experienced in a WPF church. In fact I held a license with the WPF for 7 years. I left that church about 6 months ago and now attend a small UPC home missions work. I was wondering if you experienced this attitude first hand or not? The whole experience actually prompted me to write articles to correct the misapplication of some of the scriptures that you referred to....

Jito463
02-17-2017, 07:21 PM
Yardley - I am new to AFF. I found your comments of interest since it is what I experienced in a WPF church. In fact I held a license with the WPF for 7 years. I left that church about 6 months ago and now attend a small UPC home missions work. I was wondering if you experienced this attitude first hand or not? The whole experience actually prompted me to write articles to correct the misapplication of some of the scriptures that you referred to....

I highly doubt you'll get a response. This thread has been dead for almost 3 years now, and the user in question hasn't been on AFF for over 6 1/2 years (July 2010 was the last activity).

CC1
03-20-2017, 08:13 AM
I highly doubt you'll get a response. This thread has been dead for almost 3 years now, and the user in question hasn't been on AFF for over 6 1/2 years (July 2010 was the last activity).

Hey, hope springs eternal! You never know. They might just be on a 7 year break from AFF!!!! LOL