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Digging4Truth
08-20-2010, 12:15 PM
I found this study that I have been involving myself in to be very interesting... A discussion in another thread sent me studying the Word again and it never ceases to amaze what will come out of the word when it is opened.

This is OT....

The Spirit rested upon them... and they prophesied.

Numbers 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that [was] upon him, and gave [it] unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, [that], when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Numbers 11:26 But there remained two [of the] men in the camp, the name of the one [was] Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they [were] of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

Samuel is speaking to Saul (who is not a prophet by his own right). But Samuel told him that the spirit of the LORD would come upon him and he would prophesy and when he saw this sign... he knew God was with him.

1Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
1Sa 10:7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, [that] thou do as occasion serve thee; for God [is] with thee.

1Sa 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
1Sa 10:11 And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What [is] this [that] is come unto the son of Kish? [Is] Saul also among the prophets?


Joel said... I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh... and they shall... among other things... prophesy. Peter recalls this scripture stating that THIS IS THAT. What happened on the day of Pentecost... was what this scripture was speaking. These are the things that will happen...

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Luke 1:66 And all they that heard [them] laid [them] up in their hearts, saying, What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with him.
Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

(And so we can know what a prophesy might sound like... I'll continue. Notice it is mostly telling the wonderful works of God. I'll bring that back up later)

Luke 1:68 Blessed the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luke 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
Luke 1:72 To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
Luke 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Luke 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luke 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Luke 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Luke 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
Luke 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
Luke 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.


Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will [B]pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

And they understood them... And when they understood them they heard them speak the wonderful things of God.

Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

So... Peter said... THIS IS THAT... the "this is that" he spoke of was Joel's prophesy. Joel's prophesy was that their sons & daughters would prophesy.

What does a prophesy look like? It speaks of the wonderful works of God and that is exactly what happened on the day of Pentecost. It happened in each of their languages so they could all hear it and understand it.

Peter was saying... Joel said your sons & daughters will prophesy... and this is that.

But when we see the scripture below we nearly ignore the word prophesy. All we see is tongues. Of the 12 people did speak in tongues. But people did also prophesy because prophesying when the spirit of the Lord comes upon you is a long established sign even from OT times.

What would we think if the following verse said... "And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did speak in tongues."? We'd think it was speaking of their actual conversion most likely. But we don't think about this possibly being their conversion because it says they prophesied even though prophecy is a well established sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

It is amazing how we focus on tongues so very much when the Bible focused much, much more on prophesying. The Bible often touts prophesying as a sign. A sign of God's spirit coming upon his people.

TGBTG
08-20-2010, 12:38 PM
Numbers 11
28And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

1 cor 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied

So which is the initial evidence, Prophesying or tongues?

mfblume
08-20-2010, 01:24 PM
Tongues is uniquely common to references to any evidence of Spirit baptism. And since Spirit Baptism is a huge issue, that is why tongues is emphasized more than prophesying.

Scott Hutchinson
08-20-2010, 01:25 PM
Tongues is uniquely common to references to any evidence of Spirit baptism. And since Spirit Baptism is a huge issue, that is why tongues is emphasized more than prophesying.

I agree.

Digging4Truth
08-20-2010, 01:32 PM
Tongues is uniquely common to references to any evidence of Spirit baptism. And since Spirit Baptism is a huge issue, that is why tongues is emphasized more than prophesying.



What about this scripture?

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

mfblume
08-20-2010, 01:34 PM
Uniquely?

What about Acts 2? They were overheard praising God in tongues. That is not prophesying.

KWSS1976
08-20-2010, 04:02 PM
mf in acts 2 the first time they spoke in tongues they were telling of the good works..they were not praising....

jfrog
08-20-2010, 04:06 PM
What about Acts 2? They were overheard praising God in tongues. That is not prophesying.

In acts 2 they were prophesying through tongues. ;)

Jason B
08-21-2010, 03:02 PM
mf in acts 2 the first time they spoke in tongues they were telling of the good works..they were not praising....

And they were speaking in an ACTUAL language known to the hearers. Same thing in Acts 10.

The only place tongues is mentioned and it is not specifically noted that a bystander understood in in Acts 19, and again prophesy is mentioned there, and prophecy is understood.

I think tongues are not UNKNOWN languages, but UNLEARNED LANGUAGES-real langueas, not babbling. As far as tongues of "angels" that most likely doesn't mean some strange noise, when angels spoke to men, they spoke languages the men understood. My Bible is missing the scripture where the heavenly visitor spoke ANGELESE.

Jason B
08-21-2010, 03:03 PM
GREAT THREAD D4T. :thumbsup

Digging4Truth
08-21-2010, 03:21 PM
GREAT THREAD D4T. :thumbsup

I think so too. It is more of an "I'm thinking out loud" type thread but I'm enjoying it.

Today my wife & daughter talked on this a little bit and the thought we discussed was this...

Peter said "this is that".

The THAT he spoke of was Joel's prophecy.

Joel said...

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Nowhere in that discourse is tongues mentioned. When Peter said this is that what we have been taught would lead us to believe that Joel had said "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall speak in tongues." because of the heavy emphasis on the tongues. It's like nothing else exists.

But... I am headed to the church for Praise Team Practice. So I need to get.

But I am enjoying the volley of ideas that my "thinking out loud" is inviting.

Digging4Truth
08-21-2010, 03:27 PM
I only had the term Uniquely up for a moment and I edited it out. Please see my post as it appears now and I would like to hear your thoughts on what is there.

But... I will certainly not fail to respond to your thoughts though.

What about Acts 2? They were overheard praising God in tongues. That is not prophesying.

Why isn't praising God prophesying?

Here is Zacharias' prophesy that he gave when he was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophesied.

Luke 1:68 Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luke 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
Luke 1:72 To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
Luke 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Luke 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luke 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Luke 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Luke 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
Luke 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
Luke 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

That isn't what we would call a prophesy. But God called it one. God said it was a prophesy and yet it declares the wonderful works of God.

On the day of pentecostal they declared the wonderful works of God in the language of all that were there. And when they did declare the wonderful works of God Peter said... this is that spoken of by the prophet Joel...

And Joel said that on that day... your sons and your daughters shall prophesy... and they did.... in the tongue of jews from all over the word even though there were all from Galilee.

pelathais
08-21-2010, 10:29 PM
In the ancient world "to prophesy" was synonymous with "speaking in an unknown tongue."

The Egyptian courtier and servant of Pharaoh, Wenamun, describes this phenomena among some "prophets" that he encounters in the Levant region near Byblos in about the year 1112 BC.

The priestess of Apollo at the famous Oracle of Delphi famously "spoke in tongues" when she "prophesied" and an interpretation by a priest was required. A similar scene is depicted in the recent film "300" showing the Spartan leader Leonidas consulting an oracle who "speaks in tongues" which is subsequently "interpreted" by the priests.

There has been a lengthy discussion of this topic in scholarly journals like Veritas Testamentum (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/brill/vet/2007/00000057/00000004/art00004?crawler=true), but you have to pay to read the whole thing or attend a university that provides a subscription. JSTOR provides a fairly good read here: http://www.jstor.org/pss/1356093 for free. There is a larger - though somewhat dated - discussion here: http://books.google.com/books?id=sqwQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=wenamun+%2Bprophesy&source=bl&ots=1_39JhZI10&sig=-q47DB20oHfjdZeJhgoWr1lk054&hl=en&ei=zaVwTPW2D4uisAOAoMSIBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false

To "prophesy" in the ancient world was the same outwardly observable phenomena as our own "speaking in tongues."

Digging4Truth
08-21-2010, 10:36 PM
In the ancient world "to prophesy" was synonymous with "speaking in an unknown tongue."

The Egyptian courtier and servant of Pharaoh, Wenamun, describes this phenomena among some "prophets" that he encounters in the Levant region near Byblos in about the year 1112 BC.

The priestess of Apollo at the famous Oracle of Delphi famously "spoke in tongues" when she "prophesied" and an interpretation by a priest was required. A similar scene is depicted in the recent film "300" showing the Spartan leader Leonidas consulting an oracle who "speaks in tongues" which is subsequently "interpreted" by the priests.

There has been a lengthy discussion of this topic in scholarly journals like Veritas Testamentum (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/brill/vet/2007/00000057/00000004/art00004?crawler=true), but you have to pay to read the whole thing or attend a university that provides a subscription. JSTOR provides a fairly good read here: http://www.jstor.org/pss/1356093 for free. There is a larger - though somewhat dated - discussion here: http://books.google.com/books?id=sqwQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=wenamun+%2Bprophesy&source=bl&ots=1_39JhZI10&sig=-q47DB20oHfjdZeJhgoWr1lk054&hl=en&ei=zaVwTPW2D4uisAOAoMSIBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false

To "prophesy" in the ancient world was the same outwardly observable phenomena as our own "speaking in tongues."

I had never heard this before.

I had not seen this demonstrated in the OT examples of prophesying nor with Zacharias' prophecy. I will have to look into this. Thanks for the info.

Jason B
08-21-2010, 11:30 PM
In the ancient world "to prophesy" was synonymous with "speaking in an unknown tongue."

The Egyptian courtier and servant of Pharaoh, Wenamun, describes this phenomena among some "prophets" that he encounters in the Levant region near Byblos in about the year 1112 BC.

The priestess of Apollo at the famous Oracle of Delphi famously "spoke in tongues" when she "prophesied" and an interpretation by a priest was required. A similar scene is depicted in the recent film "300" showing the Spartan leader Leonidas consulting an oracle who "speaks in tongues" which is subsequently "interpreted" by the priests.

There has been a lengthy discussion of this topic in scholarly journals like Veritas Testamentum (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/brill/vet/2007/00000057/00000004/art00004?crawler=true), but you have to pay to read the whole thing or attend a university that provides a subscription. JSTOR provides a fairly good read here: http://www.jstor.org/pss/1356093 for free. There is a larger - though somewhat dated - discussion here: http://books.google.com/books?id=sqwQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=wenamun+%2Bprophesy&source=bl&ots=1_39JhZI10&sig=-q47DB20oHfjdZeJhgoWr1lk054&hl=en&ei=zaVwTPW2D4uisAOAoMSIBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false

To "prophesy" in the ancient world was the same outwardly observable phenomena as our own "speaking in tongues."

Yet in the Bible prophecy seems to be intelligible. I don't really think pagan sources are a good endorsement of what we call "speaking in tongues". In fact, on the surface it seems to lend credence to those who claim the whole practice is occultic

walkbyfaith
08-22-2010, 12:32 AM
these signs shall follow them that believe,they shall speak with other tongues.

*AQuietPlace*
08-22-2010, 07:22 AM
these signs shall follow them that believe,they shall speak with other tongues.
Entire passage:


15 And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. 16 Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned. 17 These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.[e] 18 They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”

Digging4Truth
08-22-2010, 07:25 AM
these signs shall follow them that believe,they shall speak with other tongues.

I love it when quotes like this one come into a conversation like this. It reminds me to go and study that series of verses.

First... the quote sure tells something doesn't it?

Here is the scripture.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

And there are other things that follow this verse that those who believe will do. But we remember... they shall speak with other tongues. One would think that casting out devils would be as popular and as prevalent as tongues but we emphasize tongues so much this is where we focus.

But... Let's take a look at the discourse. I need to get to church so this will have to be short.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Jesus said go and tell the world about this gospel.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
He that believeth and is baptized will be saved. If you go out and tell this gospel to people... and they believe it... the will be saved.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Now this is the part that makes me smile. I know what I have been told this series of scriptures say. I know that I have believed it without even studying it myself. These three verses together say (as I have been told) that when you're saved... you'll speak in tongues.

But let's step back and just take a look.

Preach the gospel.
If they believe the gospel they will be saved.
These signs shall follow them that believe. Now... if they believe... they are saved. And the signs are signs that follow saved people.

You disagree don't you?

Well let's look again. Not even worrying about the fact that what I just said is what the scripture said...

These signs shall follow those that believe.
1. They shall cast out devils. Now tell me. Who of you has an expectation that a possible sign that someone has just been saved is that they turn around and cast out a devil? Nobody. Nobody looks for that. If that happened we'd all stare at each other and say... WHAT? But yet that is the FIRST sign given in a list that should all pertain to one another isn't it?
2. They shall speak with other tongues. etc.
3. They shall take up serpents.
4. If they drink poison it won't hurt them.

I can see it now... Come on brother... you about to receive the Holy Ghost... and now we know... he is saved... because he drank poison, handled a snake and cast out a devil.

We all know that every other thing in that list has nothing to do with initial evidence but we cherry pick tongues and use this scripture to back up that notion. I know... because I've done it. As a matter of fact... I've done it up until... this post. But study opened my eyes.

faithit166
08-22-2010, 08:40 AM
1 corinthians 14;4 he that speaketh in an inknown tongue edifieth himself,but he that prophesieth edifieth the church (2 different things)1 corinthians 14;22 wherefore tongues are for a sign not to them that believe but to them that believe not, but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not but for them which believe.39 wherefore brethren covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak in tongues

jfrog
08-22-2010, 08:49 AM
I look at it this way:

Tongues is how some prophecy is spoken.
Prophecy is what is spoken.

If a prophecy is given in tongues then it should be interpreted and if it is interpreted then it edifies the church just as much as a prophecy not given in tongues would.

Digging4Truth
08-22-2010, 12:27 PM
1 corinthians 14;4 he that speaketh in an inknown tongue edifieth himself,but he that prophesieth edifieth the church (2 different things)1 corinthians 14;22 wherefore tongues are for a sign not to them that believe but to them that believe not, but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not but for them which believe.39 wherefore brethren covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak in tongues

That's what the word says. :)

walkbyfaith
08-22-2010, 01:33 PM
isaiah 28vs11 for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.And yet for all of this they would not hear.

And people still will not believe in tongues and therefore will not hear them.

Because the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God.

....and they wrest the scripture to their own destruction.

faithit166
08-22-2010, 01:38 PM
amen walkbyfaith absolutely

jfrog
08-22-2010, 02:25 PM
isaiah 28vs11 for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.And yet for all of this they would not hear.

And people still will not believe in tongues and therefore will not hear them.

Because the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God.

....and they wrest the scripture to their own destruction.

That is one of the most misused passages in support of supernatural tongues ever used.

walkbyfaith
08-22-2010, 02:33 PM
no offense faith 166, but i do not believe in the initial evidence doctrine

I purposely threw together a few scriptures ,used them opposite of there context,to show that it seems as long as we always quote what we always have heard(being very careful not to stray from mens tradition)then we will continue to have an amen corner.

I think that the passage in Isaiah was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, as the first ever gift of tongues was being demonstrated , just as God had promised in Isaiah.

None of my words are meant to offend.Peace in the name of our Lord Jesus,the Prince of Peace.

walkbyfaith
08-22-2010, 02:39 PM
I have not visited this forum for a while and could not remember my user name or password.
But in my old posts i can remeber telling jfrog that i could prove that what happened on the day of Pentecost was in fact the gift of tongues. I'll try to find it.

james34
08-22-2010, 03:12 PM
aha here is my old user name ,but i thought i had more posts.

mfblume
08-25-2010, 09:36 AM
I only had the term Uniquely up for a moment and I edited it out. Please see my post as it appears now and I would like to hear your thoughts on what is there.

But... I will certainly not fail to respond to your thoughts though.



Why isn't praising God prophesying?

The two are distinguished and not one and the same.

1 Corinthians 14:5 KJV I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


It is giving God worship and praise. That is not prophesying. Brother, they it distinctly said they SPOKE IN TONGUES. lol

Here is Zacharias' prophesy that he gave when he was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophesied.

That isn't what we would call a prophesy. But God called it one. God said it was a prophesy and yet it declares the wonderful works of God.

Prophesying is not always PREDICTIVE, we know. Those who would not think Zechariah was prophesying do not realize prophecy does not cover ONLY PREDICTIONS. Prophesying is ministering to people to provide them with understanding from God. Preaching is actually prophesying. When a word predicts the future that is distinguished as PREDICTIVE prophecy. But today, people assume prophecy is always predicting the future, when that is not so.

However, when one speaks in tongues, that is not prophesying, because tongues is distinguished from prophesying in the epistles. It's a no-brainer, really.

On the day of pentecostal they declared the wonderful works of God in the language of all that were there.

It does not say they "prophesied", but that they spoke in tongues. If you were correct, then what confusion would abound when someone would read 1 Cor 14 and see tongues distinguished from prophecy!

And when they did declare the wonderful works of God Peter said... this is that spoken of by the prophet Joel...

And Joel said that on that day... your sons and your daughters shall prophesy... and they did.... in the tongue of jews from all over the word even though there were all from Galilee.

Preaching was prophesying.

mfblume
08-25-2010, 09:38 AM
mf in acts 2 the first time they spoke in tongues they were telling of the good works..they were not praising....

Telling of good works IS PRAISE!

Acts 2:11 KJV Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Psalms 107:8 KJV Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

Digging4Truth
08-25-2010, 09:44 AM
The two are distinguished and not one and the same.

1 Corinthians 14:5 KJV I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


It is giving God worship and praise. That is not prophesying. Brother, they it distinctly said they SPOKE IN TONGUES. lol



Prophesying is not always PREDICTIVE, we know. Those who would not think Zechariah was prophesying do not realize prophecy does not cover ONLY PREDICTIONS. Prophesying is ministering to people to provide them with understanding from God. Preaching is actually prophesying. When a word predicts the future that is distinguished as PREDICTIVE prophecy. But today, people assume prophecy is always predicting the future, when that is not so.

However, when one speaks in tongues, that is not prophesying, because tongues is distinguished from prophesying in the epistles. It's a no-brainer, really.



It does not say they "prophesied", but that they spoke in tongues. If you were correct, then what confusion would abound when someone would read 1 Cor 14 and see tongues distinguished from prophecy!



Preaching was prophesying.

Most things become no brainers when we have a working assumption that helps guide our Know brain.

They each heard them tell the wonderful works of God in their own tongue.

It can't be an assumption that we make to say that they spoke in tongues... there...see... your wrong... it wasn't prophecy.

They were telling of the wonderful works of God in people's own tongue.

I'm not saying that what I am stating is THE case but what I am presenting is that that Peter stood there and said... THIS IS THAT.... quoting a verse that says when God does pour out His spirit on all flesh they will prophesy...

And we know that while they were speaking in tongues... they were speaking in the languages understood by those around... and they heard them speak the wonderful works of God.

So... while I am not saying that this IS the case. Isn't it at least worthy of consideration that what was going on that day is that they were prophesying (per what Joel had said would happen) in the language of those who were there so they could hear and know that this was the fulfillment of Joel 2?

For Peter to say THIS IS THAT and then for there to be none of the things listed in the verse he quoted going on in front of their eyes doesn't make sense.

It would be like me quoting a verse that says people would lay down and then point at a bunch of people jumping in circles and say SEE... THIS IS THAT.

Digging4Truth
08-25-2010, 09:51 AM
Telling of good works IS PRAISE!

Acts 2:11 KJV Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Psalms 107:8 KJV Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!


*sigh*

Brother Blume I am really disappointed sometimes in what I see coming to me in your posts. You have been a man of great honesty and sometimes it seems you are attempting to stretch the word.

Okay... but I'll take my time and demonstrate what I am talking about.

This verse does not, by any stretch of anyones imagination, define the telling of God's good works as praise, praise only, and only praise never to ever, ever be anything else.. Now... we all know praise CAN BE telling of God's good works.

But... let's look at your verse.

Psalms 107:8 KJV Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
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Oh that men would praise the LORD... FOR His goodness.... FOR his wonderful works.

I can praise Him for many things. But that doesn't automatically make every single time anyone mentions Gods wonderful works praise, praise only, and nothing but praise.

You know that Brother Blume. Why are you grasping so hard at straws?

mfblume
08-25-2010, 10:02 AM
mf in acts 2 the first time they spoke in tongues they were telling of the good works..they were not praising....
Telling of good works IS PRAISE!
Acts 2:11 KJV Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Psalms 107:8 KJV Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!*sigh*

Brother Blume I am really disappointed sometimes in what I see coming to me in your posts. You have been a man of great honesty and sometimes it seems you are attempting to stretch the word.

Wow. If this does not take the cake!!!

Brother! You claim I am acting dishonestly and stretching the word??? I plainly proved that PRAISING INCLUDES SPEAKING THE WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD. The verses in Psalm prove it. I mean, it tells us to praise God by speaking of his wonderful works, and you say I am dishonest in quoting that and saying Praise IS INDEED speaking his wonderful works??

Brother, talk about dishonesty! Whew!

Okay... but I'll take my time and demonstrate what I am talking about.

This verse does not, by any stretch of anyones imagination, define the telling of God's good works as praise, praise only, and only praise never to ever, ever be anything else..

Now, did I said speaking his wonderful works IS PRAISE ONLY? Give me a break here. Lol

Someone said SPEAKING WONDERFUL WORKS IS NOT PRAISE. I showed where it is. Had I been challenged that speaking of his wonderful works IS NOT PRAISE ALONE, that woudl be one thing for me to respond with that Psalm. But that is not what was said, and that is not what I responded to with the Psalm!

Please!

If you told me that cars are not blue, I would not think you were telling me that the only things that are blue are NOT cars. Do not change the point I addressed.

Now... we all know praise CAN BE telling of God's good works.

Well, that is not what I was told. I was told praise IS NOT speaking the wonderful works of God.

But... let's look at your verse.



Oh that men would praise the LORD... FOR His goodness.... FOR his wonderful works.

I can praise Him for many things. But that doesn't automatically make every single time anyone mentions Gods wonderful works praise, praise only, and nothing but praise.

You did the same mistake again! Think of it. It is ALSO NOT SAYING you CANNOT SPEAK OF HIS WONDERFUL WORKS WHEN YOU PRAISE HIM FOR THEM!

First of all, if you are going to call someone dishonest and stretching, then don't change the argument one made by changing the original statement the argument addressed. And secondly, do not change the argument as though I claimed the ONLY way to speak of his wonderful works is to praise. I addressed the statement PRAISE IS NOT SPEAKING ABOUT WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD. And I stand by my word that this is proved wrong by the Psalm I quoted. Nothing more nor less.

You know that Brother Blume. Why are you grasping so hard at straws?

Straws? (Whew!)

mfblume
08-25-2010, 10:10 AM
Most things become no brainers when we have a working assumption that helps guide our Know brain.

They each heard them tell the wonderful works of God in their own tongue.

It can't be an assumption that we make to say that they spoke in tongues... there...see... your wrong... it wasn't prophecy.

They were telling of the wonderful works of God in people's own tongue.

I'm not saying that what I am stating is THE case but what I am presenting is that that Peter stood there and said... THIS IS THAT.... quoting a verse that says when God does pour out His spirit on all flesh they will prophesy...

And we know that while they were speaking in tongues... they were speaking in the languages understood by those around... and they heard them speak the wonderful works of God.

So... while I am not saying that this IS the case. Isn't it at least worthy of consideration that what was going on that day is that they were prophesying (per what Joel had said would happen) in the language of those who were there so they could hear and know that this was the fulfillment of Joel 2?

For Peter to say THIS IS THAT and then for there to be none of the things listed in the verse he quoted going on in front of their eyes doesn't make sense.

It would be like me quoting a verse that says people would lay down and then point at a bunch of people jumping in circles and say SEE... THIS IS THAT.

To use your reasoning, "THIS IS THAT" included a lot more than prophesying, while tongues are distinguished from prophecy in 1 Cor 14. Joel also said that the sun would turn black and the moon to blood. Did that occur that day? After all, he said THIS IS THAT.

The fact is that THIS IS THAT specifically pointed to the SPIRIT OUTPOURING Joel foretold. IN fact that supports and confirms the argument that tongues is evidence of the BAPTISM OF THE SPIRIT. Joel foretold VISIONS, which did not occur that day, as well as dreams, etc. Tongues were not even mentioned in Joel, but it was the TONGUES that caught the attention of the people, and what Peter equated with the Spirit pouring out. This shows that tongues is part of Spirit outpouring in every case, or Peter would not say the TONGUES was the Spirit outpouring.

The subject of the overall thought was not prophesying. It was the Spirit being poured out. That is what the THAT pointed to in Peter's words. TONGUES. Tongues was no more prophesying than it was dreaming or seeing visions. I mean ACTS 2 SAYS "THEY SPOKE WITH TONGUES". We do not read, "And they all began to prophesy as the Spirit gave them utterance," let alone the fact that the epistles clearly distinguish tongues from prophesying.

Sorry, bro., I think someone else is stretching things.

Pressing-On
08-25-2010, 10:20 AM
To use your reasoning, "THIS IS THAT" included a lot more than prophesying, while tongues are distinguished from prophecy in 1 Cor 14. Joel also said that the sun would turn black and the moon to blood. Did that occur that day? After all, he said THIS IS THAT.

The fact is that THIS IS THAT specifically pointed to the SPIRIT OUTPOURING Joel foretold. IN fact that supports and confirms the argument that tongues is evidence of the BAPTISM OF THE SPIRIT. Joel foretold VISIONS, which did not occur that day, as well as dreams, etc. Tongues were not even mentioned in Joel, but it was the TONGUES that caught the attention of the people, and what Peter equated with the Spirit pouring out. This shows that tongues is part of Spirit outpouring in every case, or Peter would not say the TONGUES was the Spirit outpouring.

The subject of the overall thought was not prophesying. It was the Spirit being poured out. That is what the THAT pointed to in Peter's words. TONGUES. Tongues was no more prophesying than it was dreaming or seeing visions. I mean ACTS 2 SAYS "THEY SPOKE WITH TONGUES". We do not read, "And they all began to prophesy as the Spirit gave them utterance," let alone the fact that the epistles clearly distinguish tongues from prophesying.

Sorry, bro., I think someone else is stretching things.

Good post, Bro.Blume! :thumbsup

Withdrawn
08-25-2010, 10:57 AM
I love it when quotes like this one come into a conversation like this. It reminds me to go and study that series of verses.

First... the quote sure tells something doesn't it?

Here is the scripture.



And there are other things that follow this verse that those who believe will do. But we remember... they shall speak with other tongues. One would think that casting out devils would be as popular and as prevalent as tongues but we emphasize tongues so much this is where we focus.

But... Let's take a look at the discourse. I need to get to church so this will have to be short.


Jesus said go and tell the world about this gospel.


He that believeth and is baptized will be saved. If you go out and tell this gospel to people... and they believe it... the will be saved.


Now this is the part that makes me smile. I know what I have been told this series of scriptures say. I know that I have believed it without even studying it myself. These three verses together say (as I have been told) that when you're saved... you'll speak in tongues.

But let's step back and just take a look.

Preach the gospel.
If they believe the gospel they will be saved.
These signs shall follow them that believe. Now... if they believe... they are saved. And the signs are signs that follow saved people.

You disagree don't you?

Well let's look again. Not even worrying about the fact that what I just said is what the scripture said...

These signs shall follow those that believe.
1. They shall cast out devils. Now tell me. Who of you has an expectation that a possible sign that someone has just been saved is that they turn around and cast out a devil? Nobody. Nobody looks for that. If that happened we'd all stare at each other and say... WHAT? But yet that is the FIRST sign given in a list that should all pertain to one another isn't it?
2. They shall speak with other tongues. etc.
3. They shall take up serpents.
4. If they drink poison it won't hurt them.

I can see it now... Come on brother... you about to receive the Holy Ghost... and now we know... he is saved... because he drank poison, handled a snake and cast out a devil.

We all know that every other thing in that list has nothing to do with initial evidence but we cherry pick tongues and use this scripture to back up that notion. I know... because I've done it. As a matter of fact... I've done it up until... this post. But study opened my eyes.
Brother D4T... I love you man! :thumbsup

Rev
08-25-2010, 08:24 PM
I found this study that I have been involving myself in to be very interesting... A discussion in another thread sent me studying the Word again and it never ceases to amaze what will come out of the word when it is opened.

This is OT....

The Spirit rested upon them... and they prophesied.


Samuel is speaking to Saul (who is not a prophet by his own right). But Samuel told him that the spirit of the LORD would come upon him and he would prophesy and when he saw this sign... he knew God was with him.




Joel said... I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh... and they shall... among other things... prophesy. Peter recalls this scripture stating that THIS IS THAT. What happened on the day of Pentecost... was what this scripture was speaking. These are the things that will happen...







And they understood them... And when they understood them they heard them speak the wonderful things of God.



So... Peter said... THIS IS THAT... the "this is that" he spoke of was Joel's prophesy. Joel's prophesy was that their sons & daughters would prophesy.

What does a prophesy look like? It speaks of the wonderful works of God and that is exactly what happened on the day of Pentecost. It happened in each of their languages so they could all hear it and understand it.

Peter was saying... Joel said your sons & daughters will prophesy... and this is that.

But when we see the scripture below we nearly ignore the word prophesy. All we see is tongues. Of the 12 people did speak in tongues. But people did also prophesy because prophesying when the spirit of the Lord comes upon you is a long established sign even from OT times.

What would we think if the following verse said... "And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did speak in tongues."? We'd think it was speaking of their actual conversion most likely. But we don't think about this possibly being their conversion because it says they prophesied even though prophecy is a well established sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.



It is amazing how we focus on tongues so very much when the Bible focused much, much more on prophesying. The Bible often touts prophesying as a sign. A sign of God's spirit coming upon his people.

(1Co 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

What God wants is the edifying of the church.

There is no difference between the one that prophecies and the one that speaks in tongues and then interrupts the message.

They are equal because the church receives edification.

Sam
08-25-2010, 09:37 PM
(1Co 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

What God wants is the edifying of the church.

There is no difference between the one that prophecies and the one that speaks in tongues and then interrupts the message.

They are equal because the church receives edification.

That's what I was trying to say with my equation T + I = P
Tongues Plus Interpretation equals Prophecy
and my analogy that tongues plus interpretation were like two nickels which equal one dime (prophecy)

Rev
08-25-2010, 10:00 PM
That's what I was trying to say with my equation T + I = P
Tongues Plus Interpretation equals Prophecy
and my analogy that tongues plus interpretation were like two nickels which equal one dime (prophecy)

I like scripture so much better than analogy.

Some people use analogy that scripture won't confirm.

Scott Hutchinson
08-26-2010, 08:39 AM
Prophesying can be speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost,also prophesying can be predictive,depending on the context.It can be foretelling or forthtelling,to me when the bible says they spoke in tongues and prophesied,they meant they where speaking as the Holy Ghost gave them the utterance.

The gift of prophecy in 1.COR 12 and the gifts of tongues are the not same things that as in ACTS.19:6 Because the gifts in 1.COR.12 are for congregation use for the edification of The body of Christ.
Also compare ACTS.19:6 with ACTS 10:6 would not magnifying God be considered as prophesying.Would not speech that is spoken under the inspiration of The Lord that magnifies God be considered as prophesying ?

I feel speaking in tongues is a normative accompanying sign of being baptized in The Holy Ghost and it is a privilege of believers to receive.

Now if anybody disagrees with me on this,I'll still love you and still be your friend.