Using secular songs to open service for icebreaker

[Apocrypha]

I've seen it 2 times now in my journeys visiting churches here in S. Florida to get ideas for our new church. Talking to the pastors about it they both present it as a icebreaker.

One of them was clever... the played Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult when doing a series on the afterlife and heaven. I can give them a pass for creativity and a sense of humor.

But Granger Community Church which is a trendsetter for the post moderns recently opened with a Poison song.

http://www.alittleleaven.com/2010/08/poisons-praise-song.html

Click on link below to view it in their worship service and give your thoughts. Its a growing trend out there.

[jfrog]

I've seen it 2 times now in my journeys visiting churches here in S. Florida to get ideas for our new church. Talking to the pastors about it they both present it as a icebreaker.

One of them was clever... the played Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult when doing a series on the afterlife and heaven. I can give them a pass for creativity and a sense of humor.

But Granger Community Church which is a trendsetter for the post moderns recently opened with a Poison song.

http://www.alittleleaven.com/2010/08/poisons-praise-song.html

Click on link below to view it in their worship service and give your thoughts. Its a growing trend out there.

I have no problem with the concept in general. Songs are usually meant to mean different things to different people so if a church can take one and find some meaning in it that is compatible with christianity then maybe they can use it. However, most secular songs mean different things to different people and so everyone might not see something compatible with christianity in that song. For example, the church using the Poison song in service probably meant it to be that church is the place to have a good time. I took the song to be about going out and partying and having a good time in that way.

In the end I think using secular songs is something that needs to be done very carefully. I also would refrain from songs that already have the conotation of being about something completely opposed to christianity (unless the song was being used to make a point in a message).

[Mr. Smith]

I've seen it 2 times now in my journeys visiting churches here in S. Florida to get ideas for our new church. Talking to the pastors about it they both present it as a icebreaker.

One of them was clever... the played Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult when doing a series on the afterlife and heaven. I can give them a pass for creativity and a sense of humor.

But Granger Community Church which is a trendsetter for the post moderns recently opened with a Poison song.

http://www.alittleleaven.com/2010/08/poisons-praise-song.html

Click on link below to view it in their worship service and give your thoughts. Its a growing trend out there.



I know they must be SO relieved that you have given them a pass.

It's a great idea. We do it all the time.

[Apocrypha]

I know they must be SO relieved that you have given them a pass.

It's a great idea. We do it all the time.

Im not attacking the concept, but I can see where it can easily lead to unbalance.

[jfrog]

Im not attacking the concept, but I can see where it can easily lead to unbalance.

:thumbsup

[Apocrypha]

I know they must be SO relieved that you have given them a pass.

It's a great idea. We do it all the time.

The other song I saw in another church was Dani California by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. That one made me squirm in a church, that made me check off another box in my "I have seen it all in church" list.

[jfrog]

The other song I saw in another church was Dani California by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. That one made me squirm in a church, that made me check off another box in my "I have seen it all in church" list.

I can't see that song in church either. It's a great song though!

[NotforSale]

What's interesting, is you don't have to go outside of the Christian ranks to find a song that might make your skin crawl. I'm very open to a more modern sound, but I can't imagine opening a service with this Christian song. I would rather use an old Credence Clearwater, The Who, or a YES song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCX5eXo-4jk

[Digging4Truth]

Yeah... that's not the type of thing I would be comfortable with. I wouldn't do that.

[Sherri]

We've used a few secular songs in times past, but I think you have to be very careful. There are people who got saved and walked away from all their secular music, and hearing it in church conjures up images of times past that weren't so good. It can be confusing.

[Praxeas]

I've seen it 2 times now in my journeys visiting churches here in S. Florida to get ideas for our new church. Talking to the pastors about it they both present it as a icebreaker.

One of them was clever... the played Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult when doing a series on the afterlife and heaven. I can give them a pass for creativity and a sense of humor.

But Granger Community Church which is a trendsetter for the post moderns recently opened with a Poison song.

http://www.alittleleaven.com/2010/08/poisons-praise-song.html

Click on link below to view it in their worship service and give your thoughts. Its a growing trend out there.
Unskinny bop?

[Praxeas]

The other song I saw in another church was Dani California by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. That one made me squirm in a church, that made me check off another box in my "I have seen it all in church" list.
Not Aeroplane?

"I like pleasure spiked with pain
and music is my aeroplane, is my aeroplane"

There has to be a gospel message in there somewhere

[Praxeas]

How about some Guns n Roses
Knockin on Heaven's door

"Mama put my guns in the ground
I can't shoot them anymore
That cold black cloud is comin' down
Feels like I'm knockin' on heaven's door

Knock-knock-knockin' on heaven's door
Knock-knock-knockin' on heaven's door
Knock-knock-knockin' on heaven's door
Knock-knock-knockin' on heaven's door"

How about some old school Eddie Money
Two Tickets to Paradise

"I'm gonna take you on a trip so far from here,
I've got two tickets in my pocket, now baby, we're gonna disappear.
We've waited so long, waited so long.
We've waited so long, waited so long.

I've got two tickets to paradise,
Won't you pack your bags, we'll leave tonight,
I've got two tickets to paradise,
I've got two tickets to paradise."

[Praxeas]

Personally I think it can be useful if it's tied into the message, but Im sure some people will be offended and because of that I think it's better not to. At the same time I think those that get offended have to realize we don't all react the same way they might to that kind of stuff if it does happen

[Jason B]

:2cents

I HATE IT

[OnTheFritz]

I hope we all know that GNR just covered Knockin on Heaven's Door. Mr Bob Dylan wrote and performed long ago. ;)

[Mr. Smith]

I can't see that song in church either. It's a great song though!


But is it ok in your car? And if it's ok in your car, why would it be wrong in the church? The building isn't "The Church." "WE" are the church.

[Mr. Smith]

Im not attacking the concept, but I can see where it can easily lead to unbalance.


How so? I saw NewSpring do "Beat it" to start a service during their current series, "I Love The 80's". Is that imbalance?

[OnTheFritz]

I think it can be appropriate or not. Just live everything else. Content, spirit, intent all matter.

[Mr. Smith]

We've used a few secular songs in times past, but I think you have to be very careful. There are people who got saved and walked away from all their secular music, and hearing it in church conjures up images of times past that weren't so good. It can be confusing.


I don't see why a person, who gets saved, needs to walk away from all their "secular" music.

[Mr. Smith]

:2cents

I HATE IT

Grump.

[Esther]

We've used a few secular songs in times past, but I think you have to be very careful. There are people who got saved and walked away from all their secular music, and hearing it in church conjures up images of times past that weren't so good. It can be confusing.

:thumbsup

They get enough songs from the secular world, why not at least give them Christian music when in church. As Sherri said, many came out of that and why remind them or tempt them to go back into what they came out of?

[Mr. Smith]

:thumbsup

They get enough songs from the secular world, why not at least give them Christian music when in church. As Sherri said, many came out of that and why remind them or tempt them to go back into what they came out of?

Greater is He that is in me that he that is in the world......well, except for that evil Beatles stuff. That stuff is WAY bigger than God. I guess, anyway.

[Jason B]

How so? I saw NewSpring do "Beat it" to start a service during their current series, "I Love The 80's". Is that imbalance?

Not imbalance, just carnality.

But if the emphasis isn't really on denying self and making disciples, then I guess we can just turn the "church" into whatever image we think it should be. Maybe they should just tweak some church songs:

"I'm going back to the heart of [pagan] worship.....
It's all about ME, its all about ME.....

I won't apologize for the [relevant] thing we made it....
Its all about ME...."

[Jason B]

Personally I think it can be useful if it's tied into the message, but Im sure some people will be offended and because of that I think it's better not to. At the same time I think those that get offended have to realize we don't all react the same way they might to that kind of stuff if it does happen

Some people don't give :2cents about what offends others. They are using their so-called "liberty" in the complete and total opposite of how Paul instructed. In fact, the behavior which they have often termed as liberty, is the exact "liberty" that Peter strongly condemned.

Christian liberty isn't liberty to mix the message of the Cross with the pop culture of an ungodly society. In fact, many go beyond that, because the cross isn't even the message anymore.

[Praxeas]

I hope we all know that GNR just covered Knockin on Heaven's Door. Mr Bob Dylan wrote and performed long ago. ;)
Of course,but GNR did it better :thumbsup

[Jason B]

But is it ok in your car? And if it's ok in your car, why would it be wrong in the church? The building isn't "The Church." "WE" are the church.

I watch the Super Bowl in my house. I would be highly opposed to watching it in the church. Prime example a couple of years ago when someone hacked the feed in the Tucson,AZ area and showed about 30 seconds of hard core porn. Second example, the wardrobe "malfunction". All such junk was broadcast in at least some churches. And thats to say nothing of the commercials.

[Jason B]

Greater is He that is in me that he that is in the world......well, except for that evil Beatles stuff. That stuff is WAY bigger than God. I guess, anyway.

I guess since God is "bigger" than Saw, Texas Chainsaw Massacres, and the like we shouldn't be concerned about opening ourselves to that either.

God is greater than that evil Metallica, Megadeath, Marlilyn Manson and the such like, so whats the harm in that either.

I guess, anyway.


Have I now become the AFF ultra con???

[Mr. Smith]

Not imbalance, just carnality.

But if the emphasis isn't really on denying self and making disciples, then I guess we can just turn the "church" into whatever image we think it should be. Maybe they should just tweak some church songs:

"I'm going back to the heart of [pagan] worship.....
It's all about ME, its all about ME.....

I won't apologize for the [relevant] thing we made it....
Its all about ME...."


Oh hogwash. Horsefeathers.

I gather that you are a preacher. You do things all the time while you stand in the pulpit that are carnal and not biblical at all, like for instance, standing in the pulpit. There are no pulpits in the bible. They are an invention of the Catholic church used to intimidate and separate. The pulpit is a carnal accessory of man. I can keep going with the list if you like.

[Mr. Smith]

I guess since God is "bigger" than Saw, Texas Chainsaw Massacres, and the like we shouldn't be concerned about opening ourselves to that either.

God is greater than that evil Metallica, Megadeath, Marlilyn Manson and the such like, so whats the harm in that either.

I guess, anyway.


Have I now become the AFF ultra con???


Yes, you sound like an ultra-con. You are unable to see the difference between something blatantly ungodly and something that is obviously not. You're condemning everything that doesn't fit into your own little personal mold of right and wrong. If Rev. Badejo doesn't like it, it's bad.

Where is the line? Where YOU say it is? Is it ok to listen to pop-jazz in your car? If so, what's wrong with Paul McCartney's "Freedom" written the day after 9-11? And don't go into the KIND OF PERSON McCartney is. If you do, I'll start spilling the beans on a BUNCH of Christian artists you dance and shout to on Sundays.

[Jason B]

Oh hogwash. Horsefeathers.

I gather that you are a preacher. You do things all the time while you stand in the pulpit that are carnal and not biblical at all, like for instance, standing in the pulpit. There are no pulpits in the bible. They are an invention of the Catholic church used to intimidate and separate. The pulpit is a carnal accessory of man. I can keep going with the list if you like.

Mr. Smith, dont you think that is quite a difference between standing behind a pulpit and playing secular music by confessed and known druggies?

There may be no pulpits in the Bible, but I've never preached for the sake of standing behind a pulpit. Nevertheless the concept is the same as that of the Jewish synagouge service, where someone in the front addressed the congregation.

This will be alot easier on the both of us if you concede now. :)

[Mr. Smith]

Mr. Smith, dont you think that is quite a difference between standing behind a pulpit and playing secular music by confessed and known druggies?

There may be no pulpits in the Bible, but I've never preached for the sake of standing behind a pulpit. Nevertheless the concept is the same as that of the Jewish synagouge service, where someone in the front addressed the congregation.

This will be alot easier on the both of us if you concede now. :)



There you go, I knew you'd go there. Do you REALLY want me to write the names of "confessed and known" druggies within the Christian music culture???? But you LOVE their music don't you, because they FAKE it and pretend to be a Christian. As long as it LOOKS good, huh, Jason?

So you have ANY idea how many within the Christian music culture haven't attended church for years, who make a living off the church but who scoff at it, condemn it, and make fun of it on the side??

But you don't give a rip about that, do you? Let's just paint on the pretend face, sing about worshiping Jesus, and everything's good.

[Jason B]

Yes, you sound like an ultra-con. You are unable to see the difference between something blatantly ungodly and something that is obviously not. You're condemning everything that doesn't fit into your own little personal mold of right and wrong. If Rev. Badejo doesn't like it, it's bad.

Where is the line? Where YOU say it is? Is it ok to listen to pop-jazz in your car? If so, what's wrong with Paul McCartney's "Freedom" written the day after 9-11? And don't go into the KIND OF PERSON McCartney is. If you do, I'll start spilling the beans on a BUNCH of Christian artists you dance and shout to on Sundays.


I think substance would go a long ways in deciding. In the case of secular music, the intention is certainly NOT to glorify God, and at BEST a secular song is spiritually nuetral with perhaps a good moral (but not God glorifying) message.

Furthermore, I would say that character should be a factor, though it should be secondary. The difference between secular artists and some Christian artists is that the secular artist OPENLY live an ungodly life. Wherein, in the few cases of Christian artists they may have a weakness that has overtaken them, or at worst be a total and complete hypocrite living a double life.

At least in the case of the Christian, the music is [normally] written for the express intent of glorifying God and building up the body of Christ.

[Jason B]

There you go, I knew you'd go there. Do you REALLY want me to write the names of "confessed and known" druggies within the Christian music culture???? But you LOVE their music don't you, because they FAKE it and pretend to be a Christian. As long as it LOOKS good, huh, Jason?

So you have ANY idea how many within the Christian music culture haven't attended church for years, who make a living off the church but who scoff at it, condemn it, and make fun of it on the side??

But you don't give a rip about that, do you? Let's just paint on the pretend face, sing about worshiping Jesus, and everything's good.

First off, I know you have too much integrity to rat out someones secrets sins, and I admire that about you.

However, in a hypothetical world, if you were to tell about those "Christians" who scoff at the church and make money off the gospel, what difference would that make? The intent of their music is still to glorify God. Mike Murdock wrote (to my knowledge) the song "I am blessed" I cannot stand Mike Murdock and his prosperity gospel. People backslide, doesn't mean that whatever contribution they made to the church while they were serving God is worthless. And if they are doing as you say, God will judge them anyhow. God used Ciaphas to prophecy, yet Ciaphas was as corrupt a high priest as there was.

[Mr. Smith]

I think substance would go a long ways in deciding. In the case of secular music, the intention is certainly NOT to glorify God, and at BEST a secular song is spiritually nuetral with perhaps a good moral (but not God glorifying) message.

Furthermore, I would say that character should be a factor, though it should be secondary. The difference between secular artists and some Christian artists is that the secular artist OPENLY live an ungodly life. Wherein, in the few cases of Christian artists they may have a weakness that has overtaken them, or at worst be a total and complete hypocrite living a double life.

At least in the case of the Christian, the music is [normally] written for the express intent of glorifying God and building up the body of Christ.



Ok, try this out......"Rise Above This" by Seether. It's talking about preventing teenage suicide.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP6JDLQF23g

[Mr. Smith]

First off, I know you have too much integrity to rat out someones secrets sins, and I admire that about you.

However, in a hypothetical world, if you were to tell about those "Christians" who scoff at the church and make money off the gospel, what difference would that make? The intent of their music is still to glorify God. Mike Murdock wrote (to my knowledge) the song "I am blessed" I cannot stand Mike Murdock and his prosperity gospel. People backslide, doesn't mean that whatever contribution they made to the church while they were serving God is worthless. And if they are doing as you say, God will judge them anyhow. God used Ciaphas to prophecy, yet Ciaphas was as corrupt a high priest as there was.



Wrong. The intent of the music is to do ONLY one thing.....sell it to Christians. They know how to assemble the words that will appeal to a certain economic demographic.


Second bold.....and God can use Paul McCartney and his music to reach people as well.

[Jason B]

Ok, try this out......"Rise Above This" by Seether. It's talking about preventing teenage suicide.




I am unable to watch the video right now, so I googled the lyrics. I don't see alot of hop in them, but I guess the argument can be made its a positive message. ( I guess)

I also never heard of the band so I read the article about them on Wiki.

I fail to see the benefit in getting spiritual motivation from heathens. When we ought to be the light to them, they are seeming leading us?

[Sherri]

I don't see why a person, who gets saved, needs to walk away from all their "secular" music.We don't tell them they have to, but some of them do. Some of it is just too much of a reminder of where God brought them from.

[Michael The Disciple]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVqCVTnF6yI

Heres one that was current when I came to Christ. Secular duo but were looking in the right direction.

I have a Youtube playlist I call "Songs That Infuenced Me To Believe".

Not made by Christians but I was not a Christian either.

[Michael The Disciple]

Some secular songs I would use to break the ice in a WITNESSING situation. I doubt I would use them in the worship meeting.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I've seen it 2 times now in my journeys visiting churches here in S. Florida to get ideas for our new church. Talking to the pastors about it they both present it as a icebreaker.

One of them was clever... the played Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult when doing a series on the afterlife and heaven. I can give them a pass for creativity and a sense of humor.

But Granger Community Church which is a trendsetter for the post moderns recently opened with a Poison song.

http://www.alittleleaven.com/2010/08/poisons-praise-song.html

Click on link below to view it in their worship service and give your thoughts. Its a growing trend out there.



I am opposed to this.

Unless it was an inspirational or general feel good song (I'm thinking, "Lean On Me or something like that) it does not have a place in a worship service.

A worship service should be more about HIM than it should about the people worshiping HIM.

Many secular songs may not be anti-God, but very few do little, if anything, to point people in the direction of love of our GOD and our brothers and sisters.



Where is Michael W. Smith when you need him? I can hear him singing now, "When the music fades and all is stripped away...."

[Jason B]

Wrong. The intent of the music is to do ONLY one thing.....sell it to Christians. They know how to assemble the words that will appeal to a certain economic demographic.


Second bold.....and God can use Paul McCartney and his music to reach people as well.

Don't you think your going a bit overboard in saying that the one and ONLY intent by essentially ALL Christian musicians is to sell their music? I doubt that is the sole motivation for Indiana Bible College, Pentecostals of Alexandria, and several others, some who have even given their music away at services. Furthermore, I doubt that all of the mainstream christian artists desire to only sell music, and all the while mock the Christian message.

I don't get all caught up in personalities, so I can't comment at length, but I know Steven Curtis Chapman has given his life to making music that glories God and adopting underpriveledged children. I know Mark Shultz is highly involved in church ministry. Same thing with the lead songwrited of Casting Crowns.

Really how can you compare the lyrics of a group such as Casting Crowns with those of the Beatles, and declare the Beatles to be used of God, and Casting Crowns to be in it ONLY to sell their music (with no other motivation). I think you point fails miserably

As for point 2. Ciaphas was the high priest, an ordained office by God, despite the fact He was corrupt, and unredeemed, he still held a position that was ordained by God, and God used Him to prophecy. God used Balaam to prophecy.

There are preachers who live double lives, yet they can preach under the anointing of God. God can use imperfect vessels. I'm sure Christian artists are not completely different from preachers.

God can use who He wants. HE used Pharoh, but can you give a Biblical example of God using a complete heathen (not a hypocrite religious person) to speak a spiritual direction to his people?

[Mr. Smith]

I am unable to watch the video right now, so I googled the lyrics. I don't see alot of hop in them, but I guess the argument can be made its a positive message. ( I guess)

I also never heard of the band so I read the article about them on Wiki.

I fail to see the benefit in getting spiritual motivation from heathens. When we ought to be the light to them, they are seeming leading us?


Figures. Come to our church next Sunday and I'll point out nearly an entire audience that swore off church years ago, who are completely uninterested in "How Great Thou Art", but who will respond to "Seether", "Coldplay", "30 Seconds to Mars" "Switchfoot", or "Linkin Park." These people are in the field that God calls us to, but most of use are too busy insisting that Coldplay is evil, to listen to the hearts of the hurting, who need Jesus.

You wanna see a purpose in it? Accompany me next week and I'll introduce you to dozens of people, that The Church gave up on years ago, who are pursuing a relationship with Christ. It's AMAZING!!!

You should lead someone to Christ sometime. You might actually enjoy it!

[Mr. Smith]

We don't tell them they have to, but some of them do. Some of it is just too much of a reminder of where God brought them from.


So is there Corvette, their house, and their t-bone steak dinners. I'm just saying that I don't see the purpose in avoiding certain genres of music that could be used to reach people because it might "bother" someone. I don't think it would bother them at all.

[Mr. Smith]

Don't you think your going a bit overboard in saying that the one and ONLY intent by essentially ALL Christian musicians is to sell their music? I doubt that is the sole motivation for Indiana Bible College, Pentecostals of Alexandria, and several others, some who have even given their music away at services. Furthermore, I doubt that all of the mainstream christian artists desire to only sell music, and all the while mock the Christian message.

I don't get all caught up in personalities, so I can't comment at length, but I know Steven Curtis Chapman has given his life to making music that glories God and adopting underpriveledged children. I know Mark Shultz is highly involved in church ministry. Same thing with the lead songwrited of Casting Crowns.

Really how can you compare the lyrics of a group such as Casting Crowns with those of the Beatles, and declare the Beatles to be used of God, and Casting Crowns to be in it ONLY to sell their music (with no other motivation). I think you point fails miserably

As for point 2. Ciaphas was the high priest, an ordained office by God, despite the fact He was corrupt, and unredeemed, he still held a position that was ordained by God, and God used Him to prophecy. God used Balaam to prophecy.

There are preachers who live double lives, yet they can preach under the anointing of God. God can use imperfect vessels. I'm sure Christian artists are not completely different from preachers.

God can use who He wants. HE used Pharoh, but can you give a Biblical example of God using a complete heathen (not a hypocrite religious person) to speak a spiritual direction to his people?



I didn't say "All". It's just like "ALL" secular artists are NOT evil. Coldplay is a group of guys that fight for justice and love helping the underprivileged. Then there are some awful people in the rock industry....just like the Christian music industry.

My ENTIRE point of this is, you can't judge the music by its author. Therefore, use music that will help, build up, and reach people.

Paul used Greek mythology in Acts 17 to bridge the gap between the gospel and people that were outside the faith. The same goes with Seether, Coldplay, The Beatles, etc.

[Mr. Smith]

I am opposed to this.

Unless it was an inspirational or general feel good song (I'm thinking, "Lean On Me or something like that) it does not have a place in a worship service.

A worship service should be more about HIM than it should about the people worshiping HIM.

Many secular songs may not be anti-God, but very few do little, if anything, to point people in the direction of love of our GOD and our brothers and sisters.



Where is Michael W. Smith when you need him? I can hear him singing now, "When the music fades and all is stripped away...."


So "Lean On Me" is ok? This is what makes my head spin:

"I'm against this!!!!".......(well, except that one song. I like that one)

[Jason B]

Figures. Come to our church next Sunday and I'll point out nearly an entire audience that swore off church years ago, who are completely uninterested in "How Great Thou Art", but who will respond to "Seether", "Coldplay", "30 Seconds to Mars" "Switchfoot", or "Linkin Park." These people are in the field that God calls us to, but most of use are too busy insisting that Coldplay is evil, to listen to the hearts of the hurting, who need Jesus.

You wanna see a purpose in it? Accompany me next week and I'll introduce you to dozens of people, that The Church gave up on years ago, who are pursuing a relationship with Christ. It's AMAZING!!!

You should lead someone to Christ sometime. You might actually enjoy it!


MR. Smith, this would be less offesnive if you din't know me. You well know that I don't put up walls to keep people away from God. Stick to the issues, not ad hominem tactics.

There IS ALOT of problems with the traditional church. I agree. And the traitional churhes have made themselves IRRELEVANT-I agree.

But the gospel isn't broken, we don't need unredeemed sinners to lead us to God, we need to humble ourselves and get the mind of Christ.

My personal desire is to do anything I can to lead people to Christ. But I'm not going to tell them something that isn't true. When it all comes down to it, the gospel message is still a message of deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me. Everyone is trying to copy Lakewood and go for the multitudes, but Jesus wasn't impressed with multitudes, He was looking for disciples.

My church is EXTREMELY motivated to reach out to sinner and unchurched. That is a very hollow accusation directed at me. You know very well that I LEFT a church because they did the very thing your accusing me of.

[mizpeh]

MR. Smith, this would be less offesnive if you din't know me. You well know that I don't put up walls to keep people away from God. Stick to the issues, not ad hominem tactics.

There IS ALOT of problems with the traditional church. I agree. And the traitional churhes have made themselves IRRELEVANT-I agree.

But the gospel isn't broken, we don't need unredeemed sinners to lead us to God, we need to humble ourselves and get the mind of Christ.

My personal desire is to do anything I can to lead people to Christ. But I'm not going to tell them something that isn't true. When it all comes down to it, the gospel message is still a message of deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me. Everyone is trying to copy Lakewood and go for the multitudes, but Jesus wasn't impressed with multitudes, He was looking for disciples.

My church is EXTREMELY motivated to reach out to sinner and unchurched. That is a very hollow accusation directed at me. You know very well that I LEFT a church because they did the very thing your accusing me of.

:girlpopcorn

[Mr. Smith]

MR. Smith, this would be less offesnive if you din't know me. You well know that I don't put up walls to keep people away from God. Stick to the issues, not ad hominem tactics.

There IS ALOT of problems with the traditional church. I agree. And the traitional churhes have made themselves IRRELEVANT-I agree.

But the gospel isn't broken, we don't need unredeemed sinners to lead us to God, we need to humble ourselves and get the mind of Christ.

My personal desire is to do anything I can to lead people to Christ. But I'm not going to tell them something that isn't true. When it all comes down to it, the gospel message is still a message of deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me. Everyone is trying to copy Lakewood and go for the multitudes, but Jesus wasn't impressed with multitudes, He was looking for disciples.

My church is EXTREMELY motivated to reach out to sinner and unchurched. That is a very hollow accusation directed at me. You know very well that I LEFT a church because they did the very thing your accusing me of.


Bold #1: The gospel has never been nor will be, broken. But its stewards are. You wanna hear the documented statistics? It's NOT a pretty picture. Bottom line? WE'RE LOSING!!!

Bold #2: Motivation is great. Every church is motivated. But motivated enough to actually abandon our WAY outdated tactics that haven't worked since the 1950's? Nope. Not very many. NewSpring is, though. They've baptized thousands and thousands in the last ten years.

[Jason B]

Bold #1: The gospel has never been nor will be, broken. But its stewards are. You wanna hear the documented statistics? It's NOT a pretty picture. Bottom line? WE'RE LOSING!!!

Bold #2: Motivation is great. Every church is motivated. But motivated enough to actually abandon our WAY outdated tactics that haven't worked since the 1950's? Nope. Not very many. NewSpring is, though. They've baptized thousands and thousands in the last ten years.

How many are still there. If they're not making disciples, I'm not impressed. Like someone said recently ( I think it was John MacArthur). One of the churches in california claimed to have something like 20,000 new converts over the last 2 or 3 years, yet there church attendence only grew by 120.

[Jermyn Davidson]

So "Lean On Me" is ok? This is what makes my head spin:

"I'm against this!!!!".......(well, except that one song. I like that one)

Seems hypocritical on the surface, but I only used that as an example as it was the first secular song I could think of that may be ok for a worship service.

I actually like listening to, "Knockin' On Heaven's Door", but would NEVER expect it to be part of a worship service.

Personally, I can't remember the last time I've been in a worship service where secular music was used.

The bottom line, if the music is not pointing people to loving and worshipping GOD or our brothers and sisters in Christ, it should not be a part of a worship service.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Yes, I do like listening to, "Knockin' On Heaven's Door", but I see another side to this discussion.


If I can listen to, "Knockin On Heaven's Door" in my home, why wouldn't it be appropriate at church?

Could it be that, "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" is simply inappropriate for Christians to enjoy in the first place?

Maybe this is why my parents raised us in a home where nothing but Gospel / Christian music was ever played. NOTHING ELSE WAS EVEN AN OPTION!


IT NEVER CAME ACROSS MY MIND TO BRING THE SONGS I HEARD AT SCHOOL HOME WITH ME-- LET ALONE TO CHURCH!

[Mr. Smith]

How many are still there. If they're not making disciples, I'm not impressed. Like someone said recently ( I think it was John MacArthur). One of the churches in california claimed to have something like 20,000 new converts over the last 2 or 3 years, yet there church attendence only grew by 120.


Very predictable. Any time folks like you hear of great reports, they use the "Yeah, but are they REALLY disciples." NewSpring was started about ten years ago and now has several locations with about 13,000 in attendance.

Sigh. Whatever.

[Mr. Smith]

Seems hypocritical on the surface, but I only used that as an example as it was the first secular song I could think of that may be ok for a worship service.

I actually like listening to, "Knockin' On Heaven's Door", but would NEVER expect it to be part of a worship service.

Personally, I can't remember the last time I've been in a worship service where secular music was used.

The bottom line, if the music is not pointing people to loving and worshipping GOD or our brothers and sisters in Christ, it should not be a part of a worship service.


If it's good enough for your car, it's good enough for Jesus at church. Jesus is in your car, too.

[Jack Shephard]

Figures. Come to our church next Sunday and I'll point out nearly an entire audience that swore off church years ago, who are completely uninterested in "How Great Thou Art", but who will respond to "Seether", "Coldplay", "30 Seconds to Mars" "Switchfoot", or "Linkin Park." These people are in the field that God calls us to, but most of use are too busy insisting that Coldplay is evil, to listen to the hearts of the hurting, who need Jesus.

You wanna see a purpose in it? Accompany me next week and I'll introduce you to dozens of people, that The Church gave up on years ago, who are pursuing a relationship with Christ. It's AMAZING!!!

You should lead someone to Christ sometime. You might actually enjoy it!

I will be there! Mars is my second fav. You forgot U2.

[Mr. Smith]

I will be there! Mars is my second fav. You forgot U2.


No, no, no, no. U2 is of the devil. Bono uses the F-word. I wouldn't dare risk letting people think I approve of that!

[Jack Shephard]

If it's good enough for your car, it's good enough for Jesus at church. Jesus is in your car, too.

Mr Smith, have you ever listened to Neon Trees? If you get a chance they have a song "Sins of My Youth." Really good actually. I like the whole album. It is called "Habits"

[Jack Shephard]

No, no, no, no. U2 is of the devil. Bono uses the F-word. I wouldn't dare risk letting people think I approve of that!

Yeah but does several preachers but they do it where only a few people ever know. Bono has also done more for the Gospel than some preachers, IMO

[Mr. Smith]

Mr Smith, have you ever listened to Neon Trees? If you get a chance they have a song "Sins of My Youth." Really good actually. I like the whole album. It is called "Habits"


No, but I'll check it out. But this is A CHURCH SONG!!!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sgycukafqQ&feature=av2n

[Jack Shephard]

No, but I'll check it out. But this is A CHURCH SONG!!!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sgycukafqQ&feature=av2n

"What I've Done" sounds like a song most OTP's would sing. However they would sing it in a boring fashion. Well not "fashion" since fashion is a sin. You get what I mean.

[Jack Shephard]

Also this was the best part of the Transformers 2 movie, IMO

[Jack Shephard]

How about this one by Mars?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EcX4OtLWVs

[Jack Shephard]

No, but I'll check it out. But this is A CHURCH SONG!!!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sgycukafqQ&feature=av2n

You could spin it that way. It gives a picture of what we all have or are going through

[Jason B]

:bored

we had a good discussion going until it got hijacked with youtube videos

[coadie]

Bold #1: The gospel has never been nor will be, broken. But its stewards are. You wanna hear the documented statistics? It's NOT a pretty picture. Bottom line? WE'RE LOSING!!!

Bold #2: Motivation is great. Every church is motivated. But motivated enough to actually abandon our WAY outdated tactics that haven't worked since the 1950's? Nope. Not very many. NewSpring is, though. They've baptized thousands and thousands in the last ten years.

The Holy Ghost is an outdated tactic.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. .

The Holy Ghost still draws people to repentence.
I have seen a lot of tactics. Mormons claim millions of baptisms.

[coadie]

:bored

we had a good discussion going until it got hijacked with youtube videos

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Big churches have good intentions. I suspect the narrow road discussion comes up later?

[coadie]

How many are still there. If they're not making disciples, I'm not impressed. Like someone said recently ( I think it was John MacArthur). One of the churches in california claimed to have something like 20,000 new converts over the last 2 or 3 years, yet there church attendence only grew by 120.

That tactic was in the bible. Lot of sowing but some on rocky soil, and most never took root.

[SOUNWORTHY]

What's wrong with the kind of music they used to have in churches. This new stuff sometimes makes no sense and why so LOUD?

[Arphaxad]

I don't know anything about who wrote the songs we do in church, just like I don't know if the food I eat in a chinese restaurant was offered to idols.

:doggyrun

[Sister Alvear]

I think we can get to far out however winning souls should be our main focus...so in preparing for services we must examine who we are really reaching out to...years ago going into little catholic villages I new a couple little catholic songs that talked only about Jesus sometimes I would sing them...seemed to help me reach new people...

[Jack Shephard]

I think we can get to far out however winning souls should be our main focus...so in preparing for services we must examine who we are really reaching out to...years ago going into little catholic villages I new a couple little catholic songs that talked only about Jesus sometimes I would sing them...seemed to help me reach new people...

The main focus is to use wisdom, which you have expressed rather wisely. (as you always do)

[Mr. Smith]

The Holy Ghost is an outdated tactic.


The Holy Ghost still draws people to repentence.
I have seen a lot of tactics. Mormons claim millions of baptisms.



Thanks for your deeply thoughtful and revelatory insights. Yawn.

No one said the Holy Spirit doesn't draw anymore, Toadie. In America, 17% regularly attend church services. You think something just might be wrong about sticking with 1950's strategies?

[Mr. Smith]

That tactic was in the bible. Lot of sowing but some on rocky soil, and most never took root.



Jason, this is when you seriously need to do a gut-check. When Coadie joins your team and agrees with you, surely you can recognize that you're in serious trouble.

[Mr. Smith]

One of the most disgusting, sexually suggestive songs I've ever heard in church was a "Worship Chorus".

The lyrics:

Into your chamber, Sweet Holy Spirit
Speak to me gently as I close the door
Heavenly lover let thy Spirit hover
Shakinah unending is all I long for.


I think I'd rather go with "Let It Be" or "Rise Above This" or "Come Alive" by Foo Fighters.

[CC1]

I have not had a chance to read this thread yet but thought I would list some of the songs I am suggesting to my pastor as "ice breakers" to open service;

1. Brick House - The Commodores
2. Your Lovin (Never Gonna Get It) - En Vogue
3. Come Together -The Beatles
4. Musktrat Love - Captain & Tennile
5. Cover of the Rolling Stone - Dr. Hook & The Medicene Show

[Mr. Smith]

I have not had a chance to read this thread yet but thought I would list some of the songs I am suggesting to my pastor as "ice breakers" to open service;

1. Brick House - The Commodores
2. Your Lovin (Never Gonna Get It) - En Vogue
3. Come Together -The Beatles
4. Musktrat Love - Captain & Tennile
5. Cover of the Rolling Stone - Dr. Hook & The Medicene Show


I would love to use, "Come Together" but I have no idea what the lyrics mean!:lol

[Jack Shephard]

I have not had a chance to read this thread yet but thought I would list some of the songs I am suggesting to my pastor as "ice breakers" to open service;

1. Brick House - The Commodores
2. Your Lovin (Never Gonna Get It) - En Vogue
3. Come Together -The Beatles
4. Musktrat Love - Captain & Tennile
5. Cover of the Rolling Stone - Dr. Hook & The Medicene Show

Good suggestions

[coadie]

Thanks for your deeply thoughtful and revelatory insights. Yawn.

No one said the Holy Spirit doesn't draw anymore, Toadie. In America, 17% regularly attend church services. You think something just might be wrong about sticking with 1950's strategies?

Name calling? toadie?

Please describe 1950's strategies. Which did you use back then?
I don't suspect 17% figure you quote means any more than they attend or claim to. Are they soul winners?

[Jason B]

One of the most disgusting, sexually suggestive songs I've ever heard in church was a "Worship Chorus".

The lyrics:

Into your chamber, Sweet Holy Spirit
Speak to me gently as I close the door
Heavenly lover let thy Spirit hover
Shakinah unending is all I long for.


I think I'd rather go with "Let It Be" or "Rise Above This" or "Come Alive" by Foo Fighters.


ouch.

I'm definetely uncomfortable with that. Doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Mr. Smith]

ouch.

I'm definetely uncomfortable with that. Doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater.


...and the same goes for secular music. Just because some of it is bad doesn't mean that a lot of it can't be used for GREAT benefit in the church!!!

Mmmmm......so it's NOT just secular music that's the problem. See there? There are problematic Christian songs and problematic secular songs. It's our job, as people who are empowered by the Holy Spirit, to wisely select what we're going to do in our church gatherings.

You need to listen to some Coldplay and then explain to me how in the world their music could be damaging to the cause of Christ.

[Jason B]

Thanks for your deeply thoughtful and revelatory insights. Yawn.

No one said the Holy Spirit doesn't draw anymore, Toadie. In America, 17% regularly attend church services. You think something just might be wrong about sticking with 1950's strategies?

We absolutely have problems. The problem isn't singing out of the hymnal or singing songs written by people who claim to be Christians. The problem is that the churches aren't hungry for the things of God, but are filled with the luxuaries of this world. The people are too busy with recreation, with secular careers, and with entertainment to actually give a care about their lost neighbors.

And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance. They sure had huge meetings, but look at the fruit of that movement. It created a christianity that time proved to be dead. The "seeker" movement is simply this generations version of that earlier version of watered down Christianity to make it appealing to the masses.

Furthermore, the gospel is NOT for the majority of people. What percentage of church attendence did they have in the first century Roman Empire, or Second century? When the majority of people attended church the church entered the Dark Ages. Which is what would happen again if there was a huge influx of carnal unrepentant people who joined the church and called themselves Christians without being born again. The very thing most of these seeker friendly churches are attempting to do.

I am 100% for huge gospel meeting. I love the idea of preaching in stadiums filled with people. I would to God that all people would at LEAST listen to the gospel. But the problem is the only way to get the HUGE crowds is by watering down the message of Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself had huge crowds, but He was quite clear that it was one thing to be in the multitude, and another to be a disciple.

While I would love to see an 80% or 90% church attendance rate, it will never be. Jesus didn't say the way is straight and the gate is narrow in vain. We shouldn't ever withold the gospel from anyone, or pre-judge them. The gospel is for everyone, but the fact is that if we present the TRUE gospel, the majority are going to reject it. Its sad, but true.

Speaking of which, why not use the Metallica song "Sad but True" in an effort to spread the gospel? I mean if we're going to be relevant, right?

[Mr. Smith]

We absolutely have problems. The problem isn't singing out of the hymnal or singing songs written by people who claim to be Christians. The problem is that the churches aren't hungry for the things of God, but are filled with the luxuaries of this world. The people are too busy with recreation, with secular careers, and with entertainment to actually give a care about their lost neighbors.

And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance. They sure had huge meetings, but look at the fruit of that movement. It created a christianity that time proved to be dead. The "seeker" movement is simply this generations version of that earlier version of watered down Christianity to make it appealing to the masses.

Furthermore, the gospel is NOT for the majority of people. What percentage of church attendence did they have in the first century Roman Empire, or Second century? When the majority of people attended church the church entered the Dark Ages. Which is what would happen again if there was a huge influx of carnal unrepentant people who joined the church and called themselves Christians without being born again. The very thing most of these seeker friendly churches are attempting to do.

I am 100% for huge gospel meeting. I love the idea of preaching in stadiums filled with people. I would to God that all people would at LEAST listen to the gospel. But the problem is the only way to get the HUGE crowds is by watering down the message of Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself had huge crowds, but He was quite clear that it was one thing to be in the multitude, and another to be a disciple.

While I would love to see an 80% or 90% church attendance rate, it will never be. Jesus didn't say the way is straight and the gate is narrow in vain. We shouldn't ever withold the gospel from anyone, or pre-judge them. The gospel is for everyone, but the fact is that if we present the TRUE gospel, the majority are going to reject it. Its sad, but true.

Speaking of which, why not use the Metallica song "Sad but True" in an effort to spread the gospel? I mean if we're going to be relevant, right?



There's so much wrong with your post I don't even know where to start. There is, at least, one thing you said that really makes me angry. Really angry. It's pious, spiritually condescending, and completely WRONG. I speak of,"And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance."Jason, you don't know what the blue blazes you're talking about. If that's really the way you think, I'll shift my focus to talking to someone else. That statement hurts, it's wrong, it's arrogant and judgmental, and you have zero experience with which to make that statement.

Us four, no more. Enjoy your three companions.

[Jack Shephard]

Kaaaboom......Something just blew up in here!

[Jason B]

There's so much wrong with your post I don't even know where to start. There is, at least, one thing you said that really makes me angry. Really angry. It's pious, spiritually condescending, and completely WRONG. I speak of,"And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance."Jason, you don't know what the blue blazes you're talking about. If that's really the way you think, I'll shift my focus to talking to someone else. That statement hurts, it's wrong, it's arrogant and judgmental, and you have zero experience with which to make that statement.

Us four, no more. Enjoy your three companions.

I did not mean to offend you in anyway Mr. SMith. Nevertheless, I stand by my comments. I fail to see where they were wrong or arrogant. I certainly don't pretend to be infallible, but I think you too would agree that modern American Christianity has failed to live up to the standard of Biblical Christianity.

If we agree with this, then we must identify a cause. And I think it is quite clear that the cause is primarily a watered down gospel. I am not the only one to arrive at this conclusion. EVERY writer I have read has echoed similar statements. I have been pleasently suprised to see the call amongst trinitarians for getting back to a Bible based message. Among those who have made a call to do away with superflous Christianity are DA Carson, Warren Wieserbe, William Barclay, and John MacArthur. In fact MacArthurs quote struck me as so accurate when I read it about a week ago I put in on my sig line. Certainly all of these bretheren are not in favor of an "us for and no more" Christianity.

People are promising sinners the very thing Jesus NEVER did. They are essentially preaching to them a gospel of God providing for them, which creates churches filled with people interested in what God can do for them, rather than what they can offer God.

Romans 12:1 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

They are intersted more in what they can receive from God, that from what they can give in His service, and for the futherance of the gospel. However, when Jesus encountered this type of "Christianity", a people completely willing to follow Jesus, as long as committment and self denial wasn't part of the message, He didn't go along with it, but in fact pointed our its in ability to bring ture salvation:

John 6:24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. 25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? 26 Jesus answered them and said , Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled .

Jesus didn't seem to be interested in softening His message for the sake of the multitudes. I'm not going to quote all of Jesus message in John 6, I'm sure most are familiar with it. But it didn't get any softer, by the end of the chapter we read:

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away ? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternal life.

In fact, if we read through the gospels, we will see that essentially everytime that the multitudes followed Jesus, He made a call for true discipleship and was left with only a small group.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged , if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away ?

The ONLY thing that matters is salvation. Therefore if our message isn't resulting in Christianity AS JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF DEFINED ITthen our message doesn't matter, doesn't make a difference, and is useless, no matter how big of a church WE build. There are masters of marketing in the church culture, but an expresso machine and nice technology doth noth a disciple make. The church isn't Starbucks, some seem to have the attitude that the more we resemble the coffee shop, the shopping mall, and the local fitness center, the more effective we will be in presenting the gospel. But the gospel message can never be divorced from the message of Jesus himself. It was a message of love, see John 3:16, see Luke 15 :1-7. But also a message of committment.

Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned , and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying , This man began to build , and was not able to finish

Not too many seeker churches preaching to people that they CANNOT be Jesus' disciples if their not willing to completely and total commitment their life to Him. Here again we see GREAT MULTITUDES, but the multitudes weren't disciples, they were just multitudes. If there are churches aiming to prove that a stipped down Christianity "works", thats not a new revelation. It has always been so. The problem is a user friendly chistianity is not a biblical chrisitanity.

The call to receive the gospel must ALWAYS result in an admittance of guilt for sin, and a conscience choice to REPENT of those sins and fall on the grace of God:

Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying , Repent ye : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach , and to say , Repent : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

We can be assured that Jesus didn't have a different meaning of repentance than that of John.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent , ye shall all likewise perish . 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell , and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent , ye shall all likewise perish

In Luke 9 :57-62 three different people cam to follow Jesus and all were turned away. Jesus didn't restrict any of them from following Him, He simply let them know the sacrifice involved, and it was too much. Jesus didn't cut them off, they disqualified themselves. Yet today, we accept people on their terms into Chrisitanity. I maintain such an approach is not Biblical Chrisitianity:

Luke 9:57 And it came to pass , that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest . 58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. 59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said , Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. 61 And another also said , Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell , which are at home at my house. 62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back , is fit for the kingdom of God.

Luke6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?

I will close this post with a quote from William Barclay concerning a Mark 8:34,35

"There is the almost startling honesty of Jesus. No one could ever say that He was induced to follow Jesus by false pretences. Jesus NEVER TRIED TO BRIBE men by the offer of the easy way. He did not offer men peace, he offered them glory. To tell a man he must be ready to take up a cross was to tell him he must be ready to be regarded as a criminal and to die.......

Garibaldi, the great Italian patriot, appealed for recruits in these terms: I offer neaither pay, nor quarters, nor provisions; I offer hunger, thirst, forced marches, battles, and death. Let him who loves his country in his heart, and not with his lips only, follow me.

Jesus never sought to lure men to Him by the offer of an easy wa, he sought to challenge them. He cam not to make life easy, but to make men great...."~William Barclay, Gospel of Mark pg. 201-202

[aegsm76]

"There's so much wrong with your post I don't even know where to start. There is, at least, one thing you said that really makes me angry. Really angry. It's pious, spiritually condescending, and completely WRONG. I speak of,"And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance."Jason, you don't know what the blue blazes you're talking about. If that's really the way you think, I'll shift my focus to talking to someone else. That statement hurts, it's wrong, it's arrogant and judgmental, and you have zero experience with which to make that statement"

Why don't you just state what is wrong with the statement, instead of issuing an emotional reply?
I am not sure with what you see wrong with his point or post?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Can we use this in church ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Opq2gNavAI&feature=related

[Mr. Smith]

I did not mean to offend you in anyway Mr. SMith. Nevertheless, I stand by my comments. I fail to see where they were wrong or arrogant. I certainly don't pretend to be infallible, but I think you too would agree that modern American Christianity has failed to live up to the standard of Biblical Christianity.

If we agree with this, then we must identify a cause. And I think it is quite clear that the cause is primarily a watered down gospel. I am not the only one to arrive at this conclusion. EVERY writer I have read has echoed similar statements.

People are promising sinners the very thing Jesus NEVER did. They are essentially preaching to them a gospel of God providing for them, which creates churches filled with people interested in what God can do for them, rather than what they can offer God.

Romans 12:1 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

They are intersted more in what they can receive from God, that from what they can give in His service, and for the futherance of the gospel. However, when Jesus encountered this type of "Christianity", a people completely willing to follow Jesus, as long as committment and self denial wasn't part of the message, He didn't go along with it, but in fact pointed our its in ability to bring ture salvation:

John 6:24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. 25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? 26 Jesus answered them and said , Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled .

Jesus didn't seem to be interested in softening His message for the sake of the multitudes. I'm not going to quote all of Jesus message in John 6, I'm sure most are familiar with it. But it didn't get any softer, by the end of the chapter we read:

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away ? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternal life.

In fact, if we read through the gospels, we will see that essentially everytime that the multitudes followed Jesus, He made a call for true discipleship and was left with only a small group.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged , if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away ?

The ONLY thing that matters is salvation. Therefore if our message isn't resulting in Christianity AS JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF DEFINED ITthen our message doesn't matter, doesn't make a difference, and is useless, no matter how big of a church WE build. There are masters of marketing in the church culture, but an expresso machine and nice technology doth noth a disciple make. The church isn't Starbucks, some seem to have the attitude that the more we resemble the coffee shop, the shopping mall, and the local fitness center, the more effective we will be in presenting the gospel. But the gospel message can never be divorced from the message of Jesus himself. It was a message of love, see John 3:16, see Luke 15 :1-7. But also a message of committment.

Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned , and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying , This man began to build , and was not able to finish

Not too many seeker churches preaching to people that they CANNOT be Jesus' disciples if their not willing to completely and total commitment their life to Him. Here again we see GREAT MULTITUDES, but the multitudes weren't disciples, they were just multitudes. If there are churches aiming to prove that a stipped down Christianity "works", thats not a new revelation. It has always been so. The problem is a user friendly chistianity is not a biblical chrisitanity.

The call to receive the gospel must ALWAYS result in an admittance of guilt for sin, and a conscience choice to REPENT of those sins and fall on the grace of God:

Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying , Repent ye : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach , and to say , Repent : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

We can be assured that Jesus didn't have a different meaning of repentance than that of John.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent , ye shall all likewise perish . 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell , and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent , ye shall all likewise perish

In Luke 9 :57-62 three different people cam to follow Jesus and all were turned away. Jesus didn't restrict any of them from following Him, He simply let them know the sacrifice involved, and it was too much. Jesus didn't cut them off, they disqualified themselves. Yet today, we accept people on their terms into Chrisitanity. I maintain such an approach is not Biblical Chrisitianity:

Luke 9:57 And it came to pass , that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest . 58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. 59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said , Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. 61 And another also said , Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell , which are at home at my house. 62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back , is fit for the kingdom of God.

Luke6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?

I will close this post with a quote from William Barclay concerning a Mark 8:34,35

"There is the almost startling honesty of Jesus. No one could ever say that He was induced to follow Jesus by false pretences. Jesus NEVER TRIED TO BRIBE men by the offer of the easy way. He did not offer men peace, he offered them glory. To tell a man he must be ready to take up a cross was to tell him he must be ready to be regarded as a criminal and to die.......

Garibaldi, the great Italian patriot, appealed for recruits in these terms: I offer neaither pay, nor quarters, nor provisions; I offer hunger, thirst, forced marches, battles, and death. Let him who loves his country in his heart, and not with his lips only, follow me.

Jesus never sought to lure men to Him by the offer of an easy wa, he sought to challenge them. He cam not to make life easy, but to make men great...."~William Barclay, Gospel of Mark pg. 201-202





Not even gonna read it. You are COMPLETELY uninformed and have NO IDEA what you're talking about. You really do think none of these churches, including mine, understand sacrifice, don't you? You have no idea. You have no accurate information. You have no facts. You have no evidence. You have no idea what Seeker churches do. All you have is your own little courtroom where you cast judgment on anyone who doesn't do things the way you like them done.

You didn't offend me, you hurt me. I'm tired of pouring out my guts to you, being readily available to you when you needed help, praying for you over the phone on my vacation and helping you through your tough times while I carried luggage to my hotel room, and continuing to hear from you how people like me don't believe in commitment.

Stop judging me and others like me!!!! You have no right.

"Us four, no more." Enjoy your three companions. I'm done with this. I have better things to do.

[Mr. Smith]

Kaaaboom......Something just blew up in here!


Yep, my patience.

[Jack Shephard]

Yep, my patience.

LOOK OUT EVERYONE!!!!!!!!! Shards of a fractured patience are flying around and you might get slapped in the head by a piece. Jason, make sure your "four and no more" also take shelter they don't need patience smacking them upside the head.

[Mr. Smith]

LOOK OUT EVERYONE!!!!!!!!! Shards of a fractured patience are flying around and you might get slapped in the head by a piece. Jason, make sure your "four and no more" also take shelter they don't need patience smacking them upside the head.

Duck!:lol

[Jack Shephard]

Duck!:lol
I need more patience like I need a hole in the head. I am on the floor trying to avoid the shrapnel of patience flying around the room.

[Mr. Smith]

I need more patience like I need a hole in the head. I am on the floor trying to avoid the shrapnel of patience flying around the room.


I need patience and I need it NOW!!!!!

[Jack Shephard]

NOW????? You talking about Not Of Works? I miss that dude. Oh wait you actually mean 'NOW' like N.O.W. My bad.

[Mr. Smith]

NOW????? You talking about Not Of Works? I miss that dude. Oh wait you actually mean 'NOW' like N.O.W. My bad.


:lol

I've never been an expert at patience.

[Truthseeker]

Back in the day one thing almost all coverts did was clear their homes of all worldly ungodonly music being convicted by the spirit of God. Now folks are holding on to these things,

[Jack Shephard]

:lol

I've never been an expert at patience.

Not many people are. Isn't it funny that if you ask God for patience that it seems that things come right away and test your patience?

[Jack Shephard]

Back in the day one thing almost all coverts did was clear their homes of all worldly ungodonly music being convicted by the spirit of God. Now folks are holding on to these things,

I saw this too. Mainly they were convicted by Sis. or Bro. So and So that talked them into being convicted. Just my experience.

[Arphaxad]

Not many people are. Isn't it funny that if you ask God for patience that it seems that things come right away and test your patience?

So if i have a lust problem a bunch of half naked women will come to my house?:D


:doggyrun

[Jason B]

You didn't offend me, you hurt me. I'm tired of pouring out my guts to you, being readily available to you when you needed help, praying for you over the phone on my vacation and helping you through your tough times while I carried luggage to my hotel room, and continuing to hear from you how people like me don't believe in commitment.

Stop judging me and others like me!!!! You have no right.



Mr. Smith is indeed my friend. We have similar philosphies in reaching people, but definetly different methods.

However, I haven't posted these things in direct opposition of a friend who I know loves people, and does teach the word. Who has made sacrifices that some of us cannot even imagine having to make.

I posted my thoughts and response to those who are not teaching biblical salvation. Biblical salvation includes repentance. Any church NOT teaching that, is I believe watering down the gospel. For those churches that do teach the gospel message, but use methods I am uncomfortable with, I may disagree, but I rejoice in that Christ is being preached.

I am a proponent of the thought process which says "our methods must change, but our message must stay the same."

If the cross is the message, then I'm not speaking against the message. At the same time, I reserve the right to share my opinion as others have shared theirs. I NEVER at any time have purposely tried to or set out to offend or hurt anyone.

I don't agree with alot of things here on AFF, some think I'm much too hard line and conservative, and others think I'm a charismatic who promotes easy believism. Recently on CARM I've taken a beating for being a "fake oneness" amongst other, umm, compliments.:ursofunny

So I guess when you post, you can't please everyone, but again, I don't post to hurt anyone, and I want my friend, Mr. Smith, as well as all others to realize that.

[Mr. Smith]

Mr. Smith is indeed my friend. We have similar philosphies in reaching people, but definetly different methods.

However, I haven't posted these things in direct opposition of a friend who I know loves people, and does teach the word. Who has made sacrifices that some of us cannot even imagine having to make.

I posted my thoughts and response to those who are not teaching biblical salvation. Biblical salvation includes repentance. Any church NOT teaching that, is I believe watering down the gospel. For those churches that do teach the gospel message, but use methods I am uncomfortable with, I may disagree, but I rejoice in that Christ is being preached.

I am a proponent of the thought process which says "our methods must change, but our message must stay the same."

If the cross is the message, then I'm not speaking against the message. At the same time, I reserve the right to share my opinion as others have shared theirs. I NEVER at any time have purposely tried to or set out to offend or hurt anyone.

I don't agree with alot of things here on AFF, some think I'm much too hard line and conservative, and others think I'm a charismatic who promotes easy believism. Recently on CARM I've taken a beating for being a "fake oneness" amongst other, umm, compliments.:ursofunny

So I guess when you post, you can't please everyone, but again, I don't post to hurt anyone, and I want my friend, Mr. Smith, as well as all others to realize that.


After reading your PM, I think the actual issue here just might be that you don't really know what a "Seeker" church is. You included a few churches in your list that aren't within a million galaxies of being "Seeker" and are, instead, far-out, whacko, charismatic TBN churches. I'll respond later.

[Jason B]

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/GTY90_Straight-Talk-About-the-Seeker-Church-Movement?q=Seeker

An interesting link

[Mr. Smith]

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/GTY90_Straight-Talk-About-the-Seeker-Church-Movement?q=Seeker

An interesting link


I've seen this before. Old news. Griping, complaining, negative, gibberish, I'm-right-you're-wrong, ugh.

Just have it your way, Jason. You're right. We Seeker types deny the cross, we just entertain, we don't care if people really change as long as we have a crowd, we're not committed nor are the people in our churches, we don't believe in or ask for sacrifice, Robert Schuller is the devil, Rick Warren is the anti-Christ, Bill Hybels only cares about a big crowd.

Sigh.

The internet is LOADED with hate-speech about these people. I can, also, find, at least, 10,000 pieces on the internet that hates on these guys.

Jealousy. Period.

If the internet had been going in 1 AD they would have been writing hate speech on Jesus and the disciples. So go ahead, Jason, believe it if you want.

Whatever.

[coadie]

There's so much wrong with your post I don't even know where to start. There is, at least, one thing you said that really makes me angry. Really angry. It's pious, spiritually condescending, and completely WRONG. I speak of,"And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance."Jason, you don't know what the blue blazes you're talking about. If that's really the way you think, I'll shift my focus to talking to someone else. That statement hurts, it's wrong, it's arrogant and judgmental, and you have zero experience with which to make that statement.

Us four, no more. Enjoy your three companions.

Wow. This is an example of a judgemental outburst.

[coadie]

...
You need to listen to some Coldplay and then explain to me how in the world their music could be damaging to the cause of Christ.

Wrong question. How does it glorify the Kingdom?



http://www.coldplay.com/

If you all want to see Coldplays nekid home page.

Coldplays lead vocalist sounds very bad. Their music is pathetic. This appeals to kids that do not appreciate fine voice.
My teen has performed in Carnegie hall a capella. You can hide a bad voice behind loud noise.

[coadie]

I've seen this before. Old news. Griping, complaining, negative, gibberish, I'm-right-you're-wrong, ugh.

Just have it your way, Jason. You're right. We Seeker types deny the cross, we just entertain, we don't care if people really change as long as we have a crowd, we're not committed nor are the people in our churches, we don't believe in or ask for sacrifice, Robert Schuller is the devil, Rick Warren is the anti-Christ, Bill Hybels only cares about a big crowd.

Sigh.

The internet is LOADED with hate-speech about these people. I can, also, find, at least, 10,000 pieces on the internet that hates on these guys.

Jealousy. Period.

If the internet had been going in 1 AD they would have been writing hate speech on Jesus and the disciples. So go ahead, Jason, believe it if you want.

Whatever.

Hate speech on Jesus? They crucified him.



I take it you have not read Rick Warrens book or his agenda?
It is fasinating. he has a doctrine and cherry picks bible verse translations to support it. He quotes phrases out of certain verses to justify his statements.

From a marketing merchandising standpoint, he does well. He markets to the unchurched. It is done so he gets people that are not suspicious of some of his false claims.

Seeker sensitive is old fashioned marketing. Take a survey and find what the customers want. In Corinthians, Paul preeched to change the culture. In seeker sensitive, the church conforms to the culture. he keeps pumping new products into the supply chain.

With my education, I just cruised thru his books and found who he borrowed self motivation and marketing tactics from. Every one from Tony Robbins to Steve Covey. There is goal oriented management, MBO, One Minute Manager stuff and then also a sprinkle of secular humanist phrases and quotes.

Look at his footnotes and see how many translations he clips small phrases from He does it to fortify his messaging.
You will also want to read the global
bestseller The Purpose-Driven Life, available
in bookstores or online.
59

No I am hungry for the WORD. I recalll one church that bought his program. From early on, it was get with the "Program" or get out.

[Mr. Smith]

Hate speech on Jesus? They crucified him.



I take it you have not read Rick Warrens book or his agenda?
It is fasinating. he has a doctrine and cherry picks bible verse translations to support it. He quotes phrases out of certain verses to justify his statements.

From a marketing merchandising standpoint, he does well. He markets to the unchurched. It is done so he gets people that are not suspicious of some of his false claims.

Seeker sensitive is old fashioned marketing. Take a survey and find what the customers want. In Corinthians, Paul preeched to change the culture. In seeker sensitive, the church conforms to the culture. he keeps pumping new products into the supply chain.

With my education, I just cruised thru his books and found who he borrowed self motivation and marketing tactics from. Every one from Tony Robbins to Steve Covey. There is goal oriented management, MBO, One Minute Manager stuff and then also a sprinkle of secular humanist phrases and quotes.

Look at his footnotes and see how many translations he clips small phrases from He does it to fortify his messaging.


No I am hungry for the WORD. I recalll one church that bought his program. From early on, it was get with the "Program" or get out.



:bored

(In case it's not clear what this smilie means, it's typed out with a colon and then the word "Bored", which is an accurate description of what I am with your baloney)

[OnTheFritz]

Wrong question. How does it glorify the Kingdom?



http://www.coldplay.com/

If you all want to see Coldplays nekid home page.

Coldplays lead vocalist sounds very bad. Their music is pathetic. This appeals to kids that do not appreciate fine voice.
My teen has performed in Carnegie hall a capella. You can hide a bad voice behind loud noise.

Wrong. Coldplay is a good band. He doesn't have the best voice in the world, but he can sing. Plus, their lyrics and sound connect on an emotional level. It it didn't, they wouldn't have the massive following that they do. I'm sure your son is very talented, btw. But vocal talent alone does not make a great band.

[coadie]

Wrong. Coldplay is a good band. He doesn't have the best voice in the world, but he can sing. Plus, their lyrics and sound connect on an emotional level. It it didn't, they wouldn't have the massive following that they do. I'm sure your son is very talented, btw. But vocal talent alone does not make a great band.

Blues, Country, Opera etc are to connect on emotional level.

http://www.coldplay.com/

It is called eros or lust of the flesh. Two buck nekid people on their home page. This is porn/obscene. Sex sells. The Ancient Greeks into this. I am ok with this secular music till they cross the line in either vulgar lyrics or in this case nudity.
Madonna has a huge audience. Michael Jackson.

[Mr. Smith]

Blues, Country, Opera etc are to connect on emotional level.

http://www.coldplay.com/

It is called eros or lust of the flesh. Two buck nekid people on their home page. This is porn/obscene. Sex sells. The Ancient Greeks into this. I am ok with this secular music till they cross the line in either vulgar lyrics or in this case nudity.
Madonna has a huge audience. Michael Jackson.


I didn't think the contributions to this thread could get dumber. You showed up. I was wrong.

[OnTheFritz]

I didn't think the contributions to this thread could get dumber. You showed up. I was wrong.

I'm betting it can still get dumber.

[coadie]

I didn't think the contributions to this thread could get dumber. You showed up. I was wrong.

http://www.coldplay.com/

Does your fav church group get naked on stage?
Seeker friendly is into lewd and loud.:choir

We still have adults in society that will guard their children.

[OnTheFritz]

Blues, Country, Opera etc are to connect on emotional level.

http://www.coldplay.com/

It is called eros or lust of the flesh. Two buck nekid people on their home page. This is porn/obscene. Sex sells. The Ancient Greeks into this. I am ok with this secular music till they cross the line in either vulgar lyrics or in this case nudity.
Madonna has a huge audience. Michael Jackson.

Seems to be some sort of art exhibition on the site at the moment. They are not "vulgar" by any stretch. Your research on this topic is consistent with your typical kneejerk nonsense. Carry on. :thumbsup

[Mr. Smith]

http://www.coldplay.com/

Does your fav church group get naked on stage?
Seeker friendly is into lewd and loud.:choir

We still have adults in society that will guard their children.


Sigh.

Have you noticed the religious artwork of the last 1,000 years. Probably not.

We've had dumb, you raised it to dumber, you're about to win the trophy for dumbest.

[coadie]

Seems to be some sort of art exhibition on the site at the moment. They are not "vulgar" by any stretch. Your research on this topic is consistent with your typical kneejerk nonsense. Carry on. :thumbsup

You are under delusion . No clothing. In a liberal world, nudity is peddled under the concept of art work.
This is a sample of the sensuality used in the Abercrombie kerfluffle.
Eros, the Greek god of love and sexual desire
Son of Aphrodite.
There is nothing new under the sun.

Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life are elements in edgy advertising approaches. It worked in the garden. Teens pick up lewd CD covers and get influenced by what they see.
If this is what you are comfy with, to you it is no longer vulgar.

[coadie]

Sigh.

Have you noticed the religious artwork of the last 1,000 years. Probably not.

We've had dumb, you raised it to dumber, you're about to win the trophy for dumbest.

Those are pagan religions. Aphrodite, Narcissis, Zeuss and long lists of babylonian and other gods were popular. Of course i notice the artwork. When I travel and see the Egyptians have this intrigue with mothers and infants and see it pop up in the Romish religions. Heathen use a lot of nudity in their pagan artwork.

Gaia mated with her son Uranus and bore Titans, the Cyclops, and Hectoncheires. Worship of Gaia continued after.
At least I do my homework. Our secular humanism today is recycling a lot of pagan customs.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

[OnTheFritz]

You are under delusion . No clothing. In a liberal world, nudity is peddled under the concept of art work.
This is a sample of the sensuality used in the Abercrombie kerfluffle.
Eros, the Greek god of love and sexual desire
Son of Aphrodite.
There is nothing new under the sun.

Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life are elements in edgy advertising approaches. It worked in the garden. Teens pick up lewd CD covers and get influenced by what they see.
If this is what you are comfy with, to you it is no longer vulgar.

I wish there was an eye-rolling/vomiting smilie. This will have to do:
:blah:blah:blah :spit

[coadie]

I wish there was an eye-rolling/vomiting smilie. This will have to do:
:blah:blah:blah :spit

26Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

Some of us still oppose nudity and You can't deal with it.
The pagans do it for provocation.

[OnTheFritz]

26Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

Some of us still oppose nudity and You can't deal with it.
The pagans do it for provocation.

Hahaha. Ok, then.

[OnTheFritz]

Sorry, Coadie:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Venus_de_Milo_Louvre_Ma399_n4.jpg/357px-Venus_de_Milo_Louvre_Ma399_n4.jpg

[coadie]

Do these modern bands bring along their fleshpots in a U-haul trailer? Israel missed the fleshpots when they left egypt.There is a lot of anxiety leaving the world behind.

The idolater do statues and worship false gods.
Reminds me of on the fritz. This is big in the heathen countries i have traveled to.

[OnTheFritz]

Do these modern bands bring along their fleshpots in a U-haul trailer? Israel missed the fleshpots when they left egypt.There is a lot of anxiety leaving the world behind.

The idolater do statues and worship false gods.
Reminds me of on the fritz. This is big in the heathen countries i have traveled to.

Maybe. But, probably not. Most in the band are married.

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/2009/03/chris-martin-gwyneth-paltrow-split.jpg

By the way, the last part of your post doesn't resemble a complete thought of any kind. Might want to touch that up.

[Aquila]

Led Zeplin's, Stairway to Heaven??? LOL

[Mr. Smith]

Those are pagan religions. Aphrodite, Narcissis, Zeuss and long lists of babylonian and other gods were popular. Of course i notice the artwork. When I travel and see the Egyptians have this intrigue with mothers and infants and see it pop up in the Romish religions. Heathen use a lot of nudity in their pagan artwork.

Gaia mated with her son Uranus and bore Titans, the Cyclops, and Hectoncheires. Worship of Gaia continued after.
At least I do my homework. Our secular humanism today is recycling a lot of pagan customs.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.


Coadie, I'm going to give you a lesson for posting on an internet forum, while at the same time, retaining even a single ounce of credibility. Here is Tip#1;

Know what you're talking about.

You're welcome.

Now...go to google, type in "Sistine Chapel artwork" and see what comes up. When you're finished checking out the nudity, come back to AFF and apologize.

The lesson is free.

[Mr. Smith]

Sorry, Coadie:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Venus_de_Milo_Louvre_Ma399_n4.jpg/357px-Venus_de_Milo_Louvre_Ma399_n4.jpg




Oh goodness, I can't look. This causes feelings!!! Gasp!!! Get thee behind me, picture!!!

[Jack Shephard]

So if i have a lust problem a bunch of half naked women will come to my house?:D


:doggyrun

Awesome. That was awesome!

[Jack Shephard]

This has gotten WAY outta hand...oh man I missed it. Interesting read.

All nudity is not sexual. All alcohol won't get you drunk. There are those that can't see nudity without thinking sex. They might want to stay away from those things that would make them fall or at least be tempted. There are those that can't drink a beer without going too far. They might want to stay away from those things that would make them fall or at least be tempted.

We all have to set our limits based on our walk with God and what we find in the scripture. If someone doesn't think it is alright to use some secular music in church or otherwise I can understand it, but doesn't mean I will agree. If someone doesn't want to drink a beer or be around it I understand it, but might not agree. Just don't get all outta wack when someone doesn't agree and uses secular music. I wonder if when we stand before God at judgement day if He will judge us more for what we didn't do to reach the lost and not some much on what we have done. Just a thought

Oh, and I don't drink at all so don't point fingers.

[Jason B]

I've seen this before. Old news. Griping, complaining, negative, gibberish, I'm-right-you're-wrong, ugh.

Just have it your way, Jason. You're right. We Seeker types deny the cross, we just entertain, we don't care if people really change as long as we have a crowd, we're not committed nor are the people in our churches, we don't believe in or ask for sacrifice, Robert Schuller is the devil, Rick Warren is the anti-Christ, Bill Hybels only cares about a big crowd.


Personally, I thought the content in the link was thought provoking. At your direction, I've been looking around for Bill Hybels stuff tonight.


General Teachings/Activities
- Bill Hybels (born 1952) is the senior pastor (out of a total of more than 50 staff pastors) of the 12,000-plus member Willow Creek Community Church located in Northwest-suburban Chicago (South Barrington, IL). (Three branch churches have also benn established in the Chicago suburbs.) When Hybels decided to plant a church at "Willow Creek" (the name of the rented movie theater in which the church first met), rather than "set-up shop" and faithfully preach the Word of God, he instead took a three-man survey team through the community, asking those people who admitted to being unchurched, why they did not regularly attend a church. The survey revealed that people: "(1) didn't like being bugged for money; (2) found church boring, predictable, and routine; (3) didn't think that the church was relevant to their lives; and (4) always left church feeling guilty (the Christian message too negative with 'sin,' etc.)."

Hybels solution was to "program our Sunday morning service [in addition to a Saturday evening "seeker service"] to non-believers, and program our service to believers [called "New Community"] on another day or evening [Wednesday and Thursday nights]," so that the newcomers would feel welcome, unthreatened, and entertained. Hybels states that it is absolutely essential that the "unchurched Harry's and Mary's" be introduced to a "creative, introductory level, positive, Bible-centered church experience on a Sunday morning ... a place designed for [the unbeliever]. We have put a lot of time and thought into what non-churched people want from a Sunday morning service. And we have concluded that they basically want four things: (1) anonymity; (2) truth presented at an introductory level; (3) time to 'make a decision'; and (4) excellence in programming, creativity, humor, contemporary [worship], relevancy, etc." (Source: Hybels' 1990 message: "Who We Are at Willow Creek.")
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hybels/general.htm

[Truthseeker]

I saw this too. Mainly they were convicted by Sis. or Bro. So and So that talked them into being convicted. Just my experience.

Not from my experience.