Luke chapter 21

[berkeley]

To those who believe that Luke 21 is a future event:

Are the Jews going to go back into captivity?

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

[Arphaxad]

To those who believe that Luke 21 is a future event:

Are the Jews going to go back into captivity?

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It was a future event at the time it was written:razz
some prophetic things are prefilled before our time but haven't been quite fulfilled yet.

:doggyrun

[berkeley]

It was a future event at the time it was written:razz
some prophetic things are prefilled before our time but haven't been quite fulfilled yet.

:doggyrun

Of course it was a future event at the time it was written. :ursofunny

Pre-filled?? What does that mean?

[Arphaxad]

Of course it was a future event at the time it was written. :ursofunny

Pre-filled?? What does that mean?

like jerusalem was trodden down, but the times of the gentiles haven't been fulfilled yet.

:doggyrun

[berkeley]

like jerusalem was trodden down, but the times of the gentiles haven't been fulfilled yet.

:doggyrun

Wow. So there's a gap there, too? Who determines the dividing line?

[Arphaxad]

what dividing line? what gap? jerusalem is still being trodden down by gentiles

:doggyrun

[berkeley]

what dividing line? what gap? jerusalem is still being trodden down by gentiles

:doggyrun

I have never met anyone that interprets it like you do. Hm.

[A.W. Bowman]

I have never met anyone that interprets it like you do. Hm.

You can make that two people, now.

First came the start of the 'time of the Gentiles', most noted by Peter and the apostles with the conversion of Cornelius and his household. Then after the destruction of the Second Temple, the nation of Israel was dispersed throughout the world, just as Jesus said, yet the time of the Gentiles continued on, even to today with the Temple Mount is still control by non-Jews (Gentiles).

The year 1948 fulfilled another prophecy concerning Israel, when the nation was established in a single day, and Jews from around the world started their return to the promised land, a process that continues even to day. The next step is for the nations of the world to array themselves against Jerusalem - and that is taking place even as we contribute to this forum. The entire world is turning against Israel, and Jews are once again being accused (scapegoated) for every ill and problem known to mankind.

Prophecy is in the process of being fulfilled on a daily bases.

As an aside: We must remember that even the New Covenant scriptures were written by Jews and mostly for Jews, or Gentiles familiar with the Jewish people and their religion. Therefore, when reading New Covenant texts it is necessary to remember that in the Hebrew language worldview (methods and modes of thinking and interacting with the physical world), that there are only two 'tenses' in their language, perfect and imperfect. That is, "things will happen or they have already happened." This makes rendering some prophesies difficult to interpret. Some, however, passages such as Isaiah 9:6 in the chapter's context, are rather easy to follow. A child is born and child is given, translated in the presence tense, while the rest of the verse is future tense ("... the government shall ...", yet, the entire verse is understood to be future tense.

Another problem in interpreting scriptural prophecy is that within the Hebrew language and historical religious perspective, of which Christianity is a continuation, men have the ability to either speed up or slow down the time line of the events predicted, there are several example of this throughout the Bible.

Therefore, for the proper understanding scripture, we must alter our worldview to that of the original writers. Our Western though process are time dependent and linear (abstract in nature), while the Bible is written in a non-linear, time independent, conceptual frame of reference. Then, to further complicate matters, there are the Hebrew idioms that do not translate well into either Greek or English, and all of this creates much consternation among translators and makes the proper interpretation of scripture difficult.

Added comment: When the Hebrew thinking process (world view) is translated into Greek and then into English, the problems are compounded even further.

[TGBTG]

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in


Rev 11:2
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

[pelathais]

To those who believe that Luke 21 is a future event:

Are the Jews going to go back into captivity?

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Most Dispensationalists would say that the first part of verse 24 is "history." The "fall by the sword" and the "captivity" occurred in 70 AD and then finally with the remnant in 136 AD following the kbar Kochba Revolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt).

And then we have that troubling "gap" period between the 69th and the 70th Week of Daniel. This "gap" covers the time from the destruction of Jerusalem until "the Gentiles" are no longing "treading Jerusalem beneath their feet."

A lot of folks excitedly looked at 1967 as being this point in time, but by now 1967 seems like a long time ago. Too long a time for most of the Dispy eschatologies. So, were back to a "gap?" Or is there anything more creative?

I don't want to sound too cynical here, but so many of the systems that I was taught to be "the Truth!" have failed me miserably over time. Only Jesus Himself seems to stand the test of time.

*** My take on Dispensationalism comes from the teachings of Hal Lindsey, Dwight Pentecost, John F. Walvoord, Lewis Sperry Chafer, H.A. Ironsides, Clarence Larkin, Charles C. Ryrie.

And within the OP world Marvin Treece and the outlines and various sources behind the Search for Truth and Exploring God's Word Bible Study series - which ultimately stem from the "Dallas Theological Seminary crowd" listed above.

[iceniez]

like jerusalem was trodden down, but the times of the gentiles haven't been fulfilled yet.

:doggyrun

:thumbsup

[A.W. Bowman]

What is the time of the Gentiles, how is it identified, what does it consist of, and how long does it last (by time and/or events), according to the worldview of the scriptural authors?

[Sam]

What is the time of the Gentiles, how is it identified, what does it consist of, and how long does it last (by time and/or events), according to the worldview of the scriptural authors?

Well, we're waiting for an answer.

I realize there are differences of opinion among us about prophetic teaching, events, time lines, etc.

But, HaShaliach will give us his opinion based on study and research.
Not all of us will agree with him but that's to be expected.

We're like the cat that ate the cheese and waited outside the mouse hole with baited breath.

[Arphaxad]

What is the time of the Gentiles, how is it identified, what does it consist of, and how long does it last (by time and/or events), according to the worldview of the scriptural authors?

i just took the scripture that berk posted and took it for what it said and applied it to today- have these things happened,yep. wait a minute, "times of the gentiles"? that seems to refer to an era more than an event, and it appears to me that Jerusalem is still being trodden down, so it hasn't ended yet.
As for what the times of the gentiles is, is it when people that are not of Abrahams physical lineage are partakers of the Abrahamic covenant(justification by faith)?

:doggyrun

[berkeley]

Interesting thoughts. thanks. :)

[Arphaxad]

Interesting thoughts. thanks. :)

Hey, you ever coming back to these here parts?

:doggyrun

[berkeley]

Hey, you ever coming back to these here parts?

:doggyrun

Maybe for a wedding November of 2011. Not sure about that... and not any sooner.

[A.W. Bowman]

Well, we're waiting for an answer.

I realize there are differences of opinion among us about prophetic teaching, events, time lines, etc.

But, HaShaliach will give us his opinion based on study and research.
Not all of us will agree with him but that's to be expected.

We're like the cat that ate the cheese and waited outside the mouse hole with baited breath.

:grampa

Well my friend, I have some information, ideas, and theories, but not enough to share. I too am still looking for some answers myself. My problem is that looking at all of the kinds and types of arguments (discussions) on this particular subject, I discovered that no one has ever defined the terms they use! Positions are taken on subject that no one seems to have agreed upon - that is, the question becomes, what are we talking about?

If we don't know what we are talking about (as a biblically defined subject), we must be discussing something we don't know anything (or almost nothing) about. That being the case, it is quite possible that those things that we think we know, in fact, contain errors.

At this point I am not willing to make any absolute statements about something I don't know. I get foolish enough as it is, concerning those things I think I am positive of. :blah

[A.W. Bowman]

Well, it looks as if there aren't many readers of this thread who have any better ideas than mine. <sigh> So, I will take a stab at it. First, here are three questions that need addressing:

1. Does the time of the Gentiles refer to the time it will take for the God ordained number of Gentiles to become disciples of Christ?

2. Does this time refer to the period between the destruction of the Temple and the dispersing of the Jews from Israel to the time when the Third Temple will be built in a reoccupied Jewish Israel?

3. Does this period include both of these events, include additional events, or does it refer to something else entirely?

To tackle this, I will start with the time line, the question of Danial's weeks.

[A.W. Bowman]

The attachment file I proposed to upload is too long, so here it is:

To tackle this, I will start with the time line, the question of Denial’s weeks.

The question of the ‘weeks’. 1. literal, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years)

שָׁבוַּע שָׁבוַּע שֶׁבוּעָה shabuwa` (shaw-boo'-ah) (or shabuan {shaw-boo'-ah} also (feminine) shbu.ah {sheb-oo-aw'};) n-m.
1. literal, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years)

There is just enough ambiguity in the original language of the Book of Daniel (Aramaic) that some question can be introduced into the “week equation”. Like Hebrew, in order to ‘get’ the foundational picture one must go to the three-letter root verb. In this case, there two roots:

שָׁבַע shaba` (shaw-bah') v.
1. (properly) to be complete, but used only as a denominative from שֶׁבַע שִׁבעָה sheba`
2. to seven oneself, i.e. swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times)

And

שֶׁבַע שִׁבעָה sheba` (sheh'-bah) (or (masculine) shibrah {shib-aw'}) n-e.
1. a primitive cardinal number
2. seven (as the sacred full one)
3. (also, adverbially) seven times
4. (by implication) a week
5. (by extension) an indefinite number

In the biblical Hebrew context, the scriptural form of the text and general context favors the JPS/KJV translation and interpretation illustrated in Daniel 9:24-27, i.e. the carnal numbers, seven (7) and seventy (70), as rendered.

----------------------------------

The next issue concerns are these ‘weeks’ established as a hard and fast time period, i.e., are the weeks (sheba) not subject to modification by God, men or events, even to include the meaning of an ‘indefinite number’?

At this point, using the Hebrew ‘sheba’ to mean ‘indefinite number, and in turn, extended to indicate or include an indefinite period of time, seems to be a stretch. Even so, there remains a fly in the ointment, as it were.

It is an established Hebraism that man can influence God’s decrees and/or there time lines. For examples see 2 Kings 20:1-11, also see Numbers 14:2-20. So, there remains the possibility that over time, if the set time/number of Gentiles were not fulfilled according to God’s purpose, the there exist the very real possibility that a ‘gap’ might exist in the time scriptural line.

The other problem in these passages is that we in the west look at time from a linear point of view. Events in time have a beginning and an end. In biblical Hebrew, the worldview is reflected a spiral time line, where events continue to repeat themselves in various ways and means, but the essence of the event/experience may vary from specific event to specific event, the essential experiences shall remain the same – that is, until the coming of the Messiah and the World to Come. For example, the deliverance of the Jews from Egypt, and the bringing them into the Promised Land. The reoccurring event is seen again by the return of the Jews to the Promised Lade that we can witness today, after another suffering another extended period of affliction (11th to 20th centuries, ending with the Holocaust of the 1930’s & 40’s. Even this was reflected in the Jews having to fight for the original land, and then in the 20th century were required to again fight for the same land again. This cycle is to be repeated [at least] one more time, when the nations of the world will again array themselves against Israel – but God has promised to ‘cut it short’ the next time, when He shall personally (physically) intervene.

All of this is simply to indicate that making any hard and fast (dogmatic) statements concerning God’s time lines will almost always get us into trouble. Look at all of the failed predictions concerning the return of Jesus by folks who thought that they had it all figured out!

So, while the argument for discounting any 'gap theory' in the Danial's seven weeks prophecy cannot be entirely accepted (historical perspective), neither can it be entirely rejected (biblical perspective). At this point, there does not seem to be enough evidence to come to a definitive conclusion.

----------------------

Added note: A spiral view of time is not necessarily uniform, as a simple projection of a western linear time line wrapped around its self like coil. It can be compressed and lengthened (stretched), and therefore, the distance between events and their individual durations can also be compressed or stretched.

[A.W. Bowman]

The next issue is the question of, "Just what is the time of the Gentiles?"

[A.W. Bowman]

I stopped counting the Google search return on the ‘time of the Gentiles’ at page # 55. There are pages upon pages of ideas, theories, opinions, and dogmatic pronouncements concerning this subject. I suspect that there is something for just about everyone.

Really, do a Google search and take your pick from every stripe of religious viewpoints that may strike your fancy.

Where do we go from here?

[TGBTG]

The next issue is the question of, "Just what is the time of the Gentiles?"

Here's a short summary of what I have on it (I'm not a scholar though...). I think a full study on Rom 11, as well as Dan 9 thru Dan 12 (of course other prophecy scriptures too) would be helpful.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What is the blindness that is happened to Israel? I believe it is their national rejection of Jesus as the messiah as stated in Rom 11. No doubt, some individual jews believed (still believing today too) on Jesus, however, Israel as a nation rejected her God (John 1:12, Acts 2:36). From Rom 11:25, I see that as long as Israel continues as a nation to reject Jesus Christ (blindness), the fulness of the gentiles has not come in.

Considering the next scripture:
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Jews were led captive into all nations via the destruction that occured in the 1st century. However, the criteria of Rom 11:25 has not been fulfilled, so the fulness of the gentile has NOT come in. In fact, we see the Jews are still fighting today with the Arabs over the city of Jerusalem, thus showing that Jerusalem is still being trodden under by the gentiles.

Hence, Israel will continue to reject Jesus Christ and Jerusalem will continue to be trodden upon until the fullness of the gentiles. So when Israel became a nation again in the 20th century and gained back Jerusalem, it was a sign that the fullness of the gentiles was at hand. Although, they are still fighting for Jerusalem today, they have more foothold today than they had many years ago. Thus showing that as long as the gentiles hold on Jerusalem gets weaker, the fulness of the gentiles is definitely at hand.

The criteria we saw for the gentile fullness coming in was Israel receiving Jesus Christ as their Messiah. How will this happen? Israel is told in the old testament to ONLY follow their prophets (Deut 18:15, II Chronicles 20:20) who show them signs from God, for the Jews require a sign (I Cor 1:22). Therefore, God will have to send the Jews prophets who will show them signs from God, so that they may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I believe these prophets are the two witnesses of Rev 11:3 & Mal 4:4-5.
The prophets come to turn the heart of the children back to the gospel by showing them signs and wonders (Rev 11:5-6). It is only signs done by a prophet that will get the Jews to believe the gospel. We also see in Rev 7:2 that God seals the 144,00 from hurt, and we know that the seal of God is the Holy Ghost (Eph 4:30, Eph 1:13). Therefore, God gives the 144000 jews the Holy Ghost just like He promised them in Joel 2:28.

Therefore, when Israel as a nation receive the gospel message of Jesus Christ from the two witnesses of Rev 11:1-3 and they begin to experience the outpouring of the Holy Ghost like in Acts 2, then the fullness of the gentiles is fulfilled.

Just my 2 cents...

[watchman]

Originally Posted by Arphaxad
what dividing line? what gap? jerusalem is still being trodden down by gentiles
I have never met anyone that interprets it like you do. Hm.I interpret it like Arphaxed. Jerusalem is still being trodden down by Gentiles because the time of the Gentiles is not yet over. When it is over Christ will return and rescue Jerusalem.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Since Judea does not exist now as a Roman province how can anybody flee from there now ?

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea

[mfblume]

Since Judea does not exist now as a Roman province how can anybody flee from there now ?

Very good point!

It reminds me of this: I noticed that dispensationalists claims literal interpretation of scriptures. Israel means Israel. They cannot see Israel as the church today as a spiritual fulfillment of the Israel God foresaw and planned for since the foundation of the world. But when they interpret Ezekiel 38 and list the nations that NO LONGER EXIST, they say the same regions of people are considered. But a CHANGE OF REFERENCE OF A NATION'S NAME is intolerable in their doctrine when it comes to Israel.

Ezekiel 38:3-6 KJV And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: (4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: (5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: (6) Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.


No such peoples as Togarmah, Meshech, Tubal, Persia and Gomer exist any more.

[mfblume]

The next issue is the question of, "Just what is the time of the Gentiles?"

Here is what I considered. Could it be the period when Jerusalem was trodden down, and no more?

Revelation 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (THE EXACT TIME JERUSALEM WAS BESIEGED IN THE FIRST CENTURY, 40 YEARS AFTER THE CROSS, INCLUDING THE TEMPLE DESTRUCTION THAT OCCURRED THE SAME MONTH AND DAY OF THE YEAR AS THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED BY BABYLON IN THE OLD TESTAMENT)

Luke 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Revelation 11 distinctly is a reference to Christ's words in Luke. What does that say about the issue? Both accounts mention Gentiles treading down Jerusalem. Revelation gives us a time period. We have all sorts of opinions as to what the "times" means, but here we see an actual time period associated with that question.

Putting the verses that speak of the situation altogether usually helps us get the full picture.

Consider that there were FOUR GENTILE POWERS foretold in Daniel (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome) and Rome was the fourth and final one in the days of the early church. Could the times of the gentiles refer to the GENTILE POWERS that all seemed to attack Israel, with Rome being the fourth and last and their final blow to Israel was in the first century? There has never been a temple since. An earthquake seemed to be of supernatural origin considering that it stopped the rebuilding of a temple in the middle of the second century. Hmmm...

[watchman]

Very good point!

It reminds me of this: I noticed that dispensationalists claims literal interpretation of scriptures. Israel means Israel. They cannot see Israel as the church today as a spiritual fulfillment of the Israel God foresaw and planned for since the foundation of the world. But when they interpret Ezekiel 38 and list the nations that NO LONGER EXIST, they say the same regions of people are considered. But a CHANGE OF REFERENCE OF A NATION'S NAME is intolerable in their doctrine when it comes to Israel.

Ezekiel 38:3-6 KJV And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: (4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: (5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: (6) Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.


No such peoples as Togarmah, Meshech, Tubal, Persia and Gomer exist any more.I am no dispensationalist. However God will indeed keep the promises He made to the nation of Israel.

[TGBTG]

Very good point!

It reminds me of this: I noticed that dispensationalists claims literal interpretation of scriptures. Israel means Israel. They cannot see Israel as the church today as a spiritual fulfillment of the Israel God foresaw and planned for since the foundation of the world. But when they interpret Ezekiel 38 and list the nations that NO LONGER EXIST, they say the same regions of people are considered. But a CHANGE OF REFERENCE OF A NATION'S NAME is intolerable in their doctrine when it comes to Israel.

Ezekiel 38:3-6 KJV And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: (4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: (5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: (6) Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.


No such peoples as Togarmah, Meshech, Tubal, Persia and Gomer exist any more.

Isn't Persia the same as Iran?

[TGBTG]

Very good point!

It reminds me of this: I noticed that dispensationalists claims literal interpretation of scriptures. Israel means Israel. They cannot see Israel as the church today as a spiritual fulfillment of the Israel God foresaw and planned for since the foundation of the world.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Which Israel is refered to in this scripture? Physical Israel or the church

What is the blindness that has happened to Israel? (again which Israel?)

[TGBTG]

Here is what I considered. Could it be the period when Jerusalem was trodden down, and no more?

Revelation 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (THE EXACT TIME JERUSALEM WAS BESIEGED IN THE FIRST CENTURY, 40 YEARS AFTER THE CROSS, INCLUDING THE TEMPLE DESTRUCTION THAT OCCURRED THE SAME MONTH AND DAY OF THE YEAR AS THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED BY BABYLON IN THE OLD TESTAMENT)

Luke 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Revelation 11 distinctly is a reference to Christ's words in Luke. What does that say about the issue? Both accounts mention Gentiles treading down Jerusalem. Revelation gives us a time period. We have all sorts of opinions as to what the "times" means, but here we see an actual time period associated with that question.

Putting the verses that speak of the situation altogether usually helps us get the full picture.

One more verse that tell us about the "times" of the gentiles is
Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Lk 21:24 tells us the gentiles tread on Jerusalem until the gentile times is fulfilled

Rev 11:2 gives us a time frame for how long the gentiles tread on Jerusalem.

Rom 11:25 gives us the criterion for the times of the gentiles to be fulfilled.

Isn't Israel as a nation still blind today to the gospel of Jesus Christ? The times of the gentiles continues until Israel is no longer blind to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Lk 21:24 - An event will occur
Rev 11:2 - How long the event will occur
Rom 11:25 - Criterion for the event to occur

If the criterion has not been met, how could the gentile times be over?

[TGBTG]

bump...

[berkeley]

bump...

I got overwhelmed with all the info. :ursofunny

[TGBTG]

I got overwhelmed with all the info. :ursofunny

I know, right. You start off with something simple and all of a sudden, you have pages of info enough to write a book..lol

Anyway, I really wanted Bro Blume to address a couple of questions I asked him in the thread. That's why I bumped it...

[mfblume]

Just saw these posts today.

Isn't Persia the same as Iran?

Not technically by name today as they insist Israel is named and is specific.

[mfblume]

I am no dispensationalist. However God will indeed keep the promises He made to the nation of Israel.

He already did long ago. :)

[mfblume]

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Which Israel is refered to in this scripture? Physical Israel or the church

What is the blindness that has happened to Israel? (again which Israel?)

Israel in Romans 11 is specified by Paul earlier in the context as the people after the flesh with whom he is related. Such a disclaimer is made when Paul talks of "natural" Israel.

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

[mfblume]

One more verse that tell us about the "times" of the gentiles is
Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Lk 21:24 tells us the gentiles tread on Jerusalem until the gentile times is fulfilled

Rev 11:2 gives us a time frame for how long the gentiles tread on Jerusalem.

Rom 11:25 gives us the criterion for the times of the gentiles to be fulfilled.

Isn't Israel as a nation still blind today to the gospel of Jesus Christ? The times of the gentiles continues until Israel is no longer blind to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Lk 21:24 - An event will occur
Rev 11:2 - How long the event will occur
Rom 11:25 - Criterion for the event to occur

If the criterion has not been met, how could the gentile times be over?

The question is whether or not TIMES of the Gentiles refers to FULNESS of the Gentiles. Jesus spoke of treading down Jerusalem during those TIMES, and Revelation 11 does as well. However, I presently see no connection with Paul's reference to the FULNESS of the Gentiles with these other two references other than the use of the term Gentiles.

In Romans 11, Paul is speaking about Jews in light of the truth of Christ requiring themselves to be grafted back onto the olive tree relationship with God as we were grafted in. I think there has to be something more concrete to relate Romans 11 with Rev 11 and
Luke 21.

[mfblume]

Here is some info from Albert Barnes about TIMES OF THE GENTILES in Luke 21:

The meaning of the passage clearly is,
1. That Jerusalem would be completely destroyed.
2. That this would be done by Gentiles - that is, by the Roman armies.
3. That this desolation would continue as long as God should judge it proper in a fit manner to express his abhorrence of the crimes of the nation - that is, until the times allotted to “them” by God for this desolation should be accomplished, without specifying how long that would be, or what would occur to the city after that.


I claim it is 3.5 years as noted in Rev 11.

We are talking in detail about Luke 21 in the HERMENEUTICS thread in the Eschatology section.