Should the Message of Hell be preached in Churches

[corvet786c]

Just as the title says? Is it good to have fear of it? Would it help anything in our lives to be better or opposite? Or does it scare people away? Just asking?

Just being specific. Talking about the torments, sulfer etc, what the bible explains it to be?Weeping and knashing of teeth. I mean Jesus himself taught about hell, so what about us?

[Aquila]

I think there needs to be a balance. Perhaps we are hearing more about Hell than the Heaven God is preparing for us. I can't remember ever hearing a sermon on "Heaven" itself.

[coadie]

Just as the title says? Is it good to have fear of it? Would it help anything in our lives to be better or opposite? Or does it scare people away? Just asking?

Just being specific. Talking about the torments, sulfer etc, what the bible explains it to be?Weeping and knashing of teeth. I mean Jesus himself taught about hell, so what about us?

Preach the bible cover to cover. If some one finds they are in hell and their pastor never mentioned it, the pastor has some 'splainin to do.
I suggest a strong bible study on hell, its different meanings and how to go there.

Adam was told if they disobeyed pertaing fruit he would die.

[Aquila]

I'm not sure that a faith grounded on a fear of Hell is a mature faith. One's relationship with God can't be entirely built on fear. One must love the LORD. Again, I think we don't talk about Heaven enough. When we do it's disembodied and "mysterious"... but the Bible isn't mysterious at all about Heaven.

[Sherri]

Eddie's doing a series on Transformers - about reaching the lost and their lives being transformed. Last week he spoke about hell - it was very sobering, but not done in a scary way. I think it has to be preached if we believe it's real.

[corvet786c]

We all have struggles right? No one is perfect except Jesus. So what if we are struggling with a particular sin in our lives and dont overcome it? But always repent but it comes upon us once in a while.

[iceniez]

Jude 1:22-23

[faithit166]

absolutely people need to be warned of their destiny if they choose to obey not the gospel (imo)

[Michael The Disciple]

Yes because Church people can still wind up going there.

Yeshua said so:

[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
[6] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev. 3:2-5

Two unpopular topics. "Works being perfect" and Hell.

Yet the Master says to Church people if their works are not perfect their name will be blotted out of the book of life.

Christians need to hear more about Hell.

Churches tend to teach nothing of substance concerning Heaven OR Hell.

[Aquila]

I think it depends on which church you go to. I've heard hundreds of sermons about sin and hell (primarily relating to dress standards and television)... but I've never heard one sermon or lesson on Heaven itself.

When was the last time anyone here has heard a sermon or lesson specifically about "Heaven"??? When was the last time anyone here has heard a sermon specifically about "Hell" or going to Hell where Hell was described? I'm willing to wager we've heard far more about Hell.

[Praxeas]

Just as the title says? Is it good to have fear of it? Would it help anything in our lives to be better or opposite? Or does it scare people away? Just asking?

Just being specific. Talking about the torments, sulfer etc, what the bible explains it to be?Weeping and knashing of teeth. I mean Jesus himself taught about hell, so what about us?
Christians don't need to fear hell. Hell is not for Christians. It's for sinners. Preach it to the sinners. Law to the proud, grace to the humble. Tell them of their reward, be it heaven or hell

[seekerman]

Just as the title says? Is it good to have fear of it? Would it help anything in our lives to be better or opposite? Or does it scare people away? Just asking?

Just being specific. Talking about the torments, sulfer etc, what the bible explains it to be?Weeping and knashing of teeth. I mean Jesus himself taught about hell, so what about us?

Which hell? There are three in the NT you know.

[BroGary]

Jude 1:22-23


I was thinking of the same verses -

Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

[Esther]

Jesus taught more on hell than heaven. Why? Because He wants to do all He can to get you to not go there.

This society has more evil in games, movies, etc and now I hear we "fear" talking about hell. Right! Who fears that?

Should our relationship with God be built on fear? NO!

God is love!

But you are doing a disservice to the people if you don't teach about Heaven and Hell. There are two destination for eternity, would be good to know about both.

[NotforSale]

Hell of the New Testament is contaminated with countless questions that we can't answer. That leaves people with a decision to make. Is it even real in the sense of Eternal Damnation?

Eternal torment is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament, and, a majority of the Human Race has never heard of Eternal Hell. God sending the mainstream of Humankind into a pit of unending torture makes absolutely no sense. Also, since Jesus vehemently rebuked the Religious, or those claiming “Right” according to Scripture, this can leave even the Faithful in doubt, as we have seen the clarity of Religious disorder in every known Faith on Earth.

Going to Hell becomes a maddening Witch Hunt, using this “Heavy” to deal with those who disagree with our motive towards God. If they disobey, they go to Hell. If they obey, they go to Heaven.

Since no original Texts exists, and the Catholic Church has had bizarre and unethical dealings with the past writings of Scripture (New Testament documents are in Greek), this radical idea that God is going to burn people forever reeks with Religion gone mad.

Also, with Denominal Religion on this Earth that number over 30,000, people are so flooded with ideas and interpretations about Salvation, determining who will go there is beyond anyone’s ability to accurately give people the Truth. Hell is total, “Hit and Miss”. We can hardly do what’s right with what we see, let alone with what we can’t see.

Hell in the hands of humans is a catastrophe.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html

[BroGary]

absolutely people need to be warned of their destiny if they choose to obey not the gospel (imo)

Amen, are we not glad someone cared enough to warn us we needed to be born again !

Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

As far as those who say what about those who never heard the gospel, well first of all I believe that if God saw that someone was hungry to know Him in Spirit and in truth that He would make a way for them to hear, and the Bible says that mankind will be without excuse.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

God does not want any to be lost, but it is up to each individual's free will choice to decide to obey the gospel and receive the salvation that God made possible.

[seekerman]

Hell is apparently going to suffer torment and death.....

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[Michael The Disciple]

Hell of the New Testament is contaminated with countless questions that we can't answer. That leaves people with a decision to make. Is it even real in the sense of Eternal Damnation?

Eternal torment is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament, and, a majority of the Human Race has never heard of Eternal Hell. God sending the mainstream of Humankind into a pit of unending torture makes absolutely no sense. Also, since Jesus vehemently rebuked the Religious, or those claiming “Right” according to Scripture, this can leave even the Faithful in doubt, as we have seen the clarity of Religious disorder in every known Faith on Earth.

Going to Hell becomes a maddening Witch Hunt, using this “Heavy” to deal with those who disagree with our motive towards God. If they disobey, they go to Hell. If they obey, they go to Heaven.

Since no original Texts exists, and the Catholic Church has had bizarre and unethical dealings with the past writings of Scripture (New Testament documents are in Greek), this radical idea that God is going to burn people forever reeks with Religion gone mad.

Also, with Denominal Religion on this Earth that number over 30,000, people are so flooded with ideas and interpretations about Salvation, determining who will go there is beyond anyone’s ability to accurately give people the Truth. Hell is total, “Hit and Miss”. We can hardly do what’s right with what we see, let alone with what we can’t see.

Hell in the hands of humans is a catastrophe.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html

This is exactly what satan wants to be taught to the Churches. Forget about Hell. Forget about "without holiness no one shall see the Lord". Be religous and "be nice".

Strong teaching in scripture is fairy tales!

satan is well please NFS.

[Michael The Disciple]

Christians don't need to fear hell. Hell is not for Christians. It's for sinners. Preach it to the sinners. Law to the proud, grace to the humble. Tell them of their reward, be it heaven or hell

You neglect the fact that according to their own testimony most people that are in the Churches are still committing sin. Yeshua said to these that their names will be blotted out of the book of life.

They should be told. Not many will ever hear this preached in their Church.

Many or most sitting in pews will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

[Jack Shephard]

I say teach/preach things that are true and biblical. Hell is one of those things.

[Mr. Smith]

Hell of the New Testament is contaminated with countless questions that we can't answer. That leaves people with a decision to make. Is it even real in the sense of Eternal Damnation?

Eternal torment is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament, and, a majority of the Human Race has never heard of Eternal Hell. God sending the mainstream of Humankind into a pit of unending torture makes absolutely no sense. Also, since Jesus vehemently rebuked the Religious, or those claiming “Right” according to Scripture, this can leave even the Faithful in doubt, as we have seen the clarity of Religious disorder in every known Faith on Earth.

Going to Hell becomes a maddening Witch Hunt, using this “Heavy” to deal with those who disagree with our motive towards God. If they disobey, they go to Hell. If they obey, they go to Heaven.

Since no original Texts exists, and the Catholic Church has had bizarre and unethical dealings with the past writings of Scripture (New Testament documents are in Greek), this radical idea that God is going to burn people forever reeks with Religion gone mad.

Also, with Denominal Religion on this Earth that number over 30,000, people are so flooded with ideas and interpretations about Salvation, determining who will go there is beyond anyone’s ability to accurately give people the Truth. Hell is total, “Hit and Miss”. We can hardly do what’s right with what we see, let alone with what we can’t see.

Hell in the hands of humans is a catastrophe.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html


Interesting.

Do you see an eternal reward for the "Saved"? And what do you see for the "afterlife" of the unsaved? Nothing? Heaven? If heaven, would you be a universalist? I'm interested in your thoughts on the subject.

[NotforSale]

This is exactly what satan wants to be taught to the Churches. Forget about Hell. Forget about "without holiness no one shall see the Lord". Be religous and "be nice".

Strong teaching in scripture is fairy tales!

satan is well please NFS.

:blah:blah

[Rev]

This is exactly what satan wants to be taught to the Churches. Forget about Hell. Forget about "without holiness no one shall see the Lord". Be religous and "be nice".

Strong teaching in scripture is fairy tales!

satan is well please NFS.

Very True!

[Scott Hutchinson]

The wicked will be punished and they will perish,so yes we should warn sinners to flee a resurrection of condemnation.

[Aquila]

You neglect the fact that according to their own testimony most people that are in the Churches are still committing sin. Yeshua said to these that their names will be blotted out of the book of life.

They should be told. Not many will ever hear this preached in their Church.

Many or most sitting in pews will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

I assume you're not one of them? lol

[Aquila]

Christians are sinners saved by the grace of God. We struggle with sin. Sin is like a chronic spiritual disease, a spiritual cancer. We all have it. For some, it's in remission and the symptoms aren't apparent. But there are days when this "condition" flares up and the symptoms become apparent through our actions. The Christian identifies these symptoms and then we confess, repent, and get the condition back into remission. However, if any Christian ignores the symptoms and allows them to run unchecked, eventually they will not only lead to a hastened physical death... but the condition will corrupt the spirit.... leading to spiritual death.

So far... I'm a sin survivor. I have days when I battle my condition and the symptoms get the best of me. However, through the grace of God, I can get these symptoms back in check and live an overcoming life through Christ Jesus.

[Mr. Smith]

This is exactly what satan wants to be taught to the Churches. Forget about Hell. Forget about "without holiness no one shall see the Lord". Be religous and "be nice".

Strong teaching in scripture is fairy tales!

satan is well please NFS.


EXCELLENT and TREMENDOUS exegesis, Michael the Theologian. Everything is clear now. One person says, "I have a differing opinion." Michael the Theologian says, "You're going to burn in hell and the devil loves you."

We need more of you!!!

[Apocrypha]

I think it depends on which church you go to. I've heard hundreds of sermons about sin and hell (primarily relating to dress standards and television)... but I've never heard one sermon or lesson on Heaven itself.

When was the last time anyone here has heard a sermon or lesson specifically about "Heaven"??? When was the last time anyone here has heard a sermon specifically about "Hell" or going to Hell where Hell was described? I'm willing to wager we've heard far more about Hell.

http://www.growingchurch.info/media/audio/older/What%20happened%20to%20heaven%20-%20Pastor%20Erik%20Webster.mp3

[NotforSale]

Interesting.

Do you see an eternal reward for the "Saved"? And what do you see for the "afterlife" of the unsaved? Nothing? Heaven? If heaven, would you be a universalist? I'm interested in your thoughts on the subject.

MS, I believe all Doctrines (Religious, Political, Moral, Secular Education, ect.) need the element of a defined measurement. When God created the Heavens and the Earth, we are awed by this miracle that can be “Measured”. Guess work is removed by the gauge, compass, ruler, and the many other forms of instruments that give us a defined answer. I believe even miracles can be measured.

I have come to understand things, by things, taking the guess work out of Faith. I’m tired of people saying things that lead to the dead end road or more guessing. I don’t believe God wants us to guess, He wants us to know. Jesus said that Truth will make us free, and valid Truth will, not guessed Truth. Guessed Truth leads to bondage, suffering, manipulation, murder, and Religious dogma that destroys.

In my own life, I’ve come to use 4 main principles to define Truth; Experience, History, Science, and Common Sense. I believe God has given us these to Test the validity of virtually anything, including God Himself. I don’t want to sidetrack from the concept of Eternal Damnation, so here is my opinion of Hell.

First, Experience is no longer a distant concept in my life. I’ve been married 30 years, raised 3 children, have 6 grandchildren, have pastored for 14 years, been in Apostolic Church for 32 years, and have read the Bible more times than I can count. I’ve suffered, rejoiced, fallen, risen, loved, hated, and have worked hard all of my life. God gives every man, Experience. Experience is our greatest teacher, and understanding comes to those who will endure the many years of everyday living.

Through Experience, we come to know the power and love of relationship. This is the most prominent part of a person; how they deal with people. Through love, patience, and much long suffering, we reap great knowledge concerning human compassion and mercy. We learn that those that come from our loins will always be our children. Even when they fail, we still love. Even when they hurt us, we still reach for them. And, never would we send them into Eternal Flames to suffer for the wrongs they’ve done in life. In the Bible, there are countless Scriptures that refer to God as our Father, and we His sons and daughters. We are able to compare God’s feeling for us through our earthly experience of Family.

Through History, we can analyze the past to see the downfalls of Societies, Religions, and Politics. We can see how people stood up with the Truth of Measurement, and how they were cast to the dogs of execution, imprisonment, and excommunication. History can also validate what God’s Chosen were taught. Nowhere in Jewish History before the New Testament, did the mainstay of Jewish society teach of such a place as Eternal Fire, where people would live in unending torment. This alone poses a huge problem, as suddenly this “Place” appears in more modern documents. If God determined this consequence or punishment for fallen mankind, it would have been known since the beginning. History would reveal a consistent pattern of something so brutal, but it doesn’t.

Science is beyond awesome, as we’ve come to learn things by the use of microscopes, x-rays, laboratories, telescopes, space travel, and so on. This allows us to verify; is the Earth flat or round? Does life begin in the womb? How can we conquer disease? How does the human body work? Is it possible to predict the weather? By Science, we can look at Religion to validate a hoax or Truth. I started a Thread on Noah’s Ark, revealing a scientific catastrophe that many have never considered. Food, water, animal waste, the ability of the Ark being able to even float, all this and more revealed a host of problems that we mustn’t ignore. Eternal Hell, in its scientific form is beyond sick. People wailing forever in flames and darkness, when measured, leaves even the worst of humanity as saints. I’m not even sure Hitler could stand by, listening to the screams of people in agony as they begged for deliverance into the eons of nothingness.

Common Sense is nothing more than simple sense. In my line of work there is what is called the Golden Rule. As an insurance agent, I’m required to use this common sense approach when advising my clients; what would I do for myself? This works, as I look across my desk when people are asking me what they should do to protect themselves. According to Scripture, God made man in His image. I believe we have a basic format in us that relates directly to our Creator. Mercy, love, forgiveness, and many other attributes were birthed in us by the One who made us. Looking at the Christian Hell, common sense in me does not understand why God would continue to allow man to propagate the Earth so the belly of Hell can be full. If mankind is truly that bad, this whole mess should have been done away with long ago.

When Jesus walked this Earth, consider these people; The Adulterous Woman, the Sinner smiting his breast, the Prodigal Son, the Woman at the well, the Thief on the cross, those who crucified Jesus (Father forgive them, for they know not what they do), the Demoniac, the Roman Centurion, the man left dead in the ditch by thieves. Everywhere you turn, you find Jesus extending mercy to the fallen and sick. Sorry, but I can’t imagine Jesus sending people over a cliff into this extreme chasm of Torture. It just doesn’t measure up. It’s not the same Jesus that was reaching to the dead, hungry, and lonely. It’s not the same Jesus who killed the fatted calf when the son came home. It’s not the same Jesus who reached into a grave and raised a dead man.

Eternal Damnation appears to be an onslaught of Interpretation/Translation error. I’ve attached a link at the bottom that reveals a host of problems concerning our current understanding of what Hell is via the Bible we use.

What happens after we die is a mystery. I don’t have a telephone to call God on, asking Him how things are going up there. The Jews of old went around and around over this. I’m honest, my take on the afterlife is uncertain, and I leave that to God. Everyone wants to live forever in peace, joy, love, and where we cry no more. But I’m not there yet, so I can’t say what it’s like. I want to be safe, so I admit my lack of understanding to the Lord. I cry, and ask Him to help me in my limited form and frame. I beat my chest daily, and I know I’m just a man.

I see this World as God’s doing. He made everything. And, He is well able to redeem the unredeemable.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html

[Mr. Smith]

MS, I believe all Doctrines (Religious, Political, Moral, Secular Education, ect.) need the element of a defined measurement. When God created the Heavens and the Earth, we are awed by this miracle that can be “Measured”. Guess work is removed by the gauge, compass, ruler, and the many other forms of instruments that give us a defined answer. I believe even miracles can be measured.

I have come to understand things, by things, taking the guess work out of Faith. I’m tired of people saying things that lead to the dead end road or more guessing. I don’t believe God wants us to guess, He wants us to know. Jesus said that Truth will make us free, and valid Truth will, not guessed Truth. Guessed Truth leads to bondage, suffering, manipulation, murder, and Religious dogma that destroys.

In my own life, I’ve come to use 4 main principles to define Truth; Experience, History, Science, and Common Sense. I believe God has given us these to Test the validity of virtually anything, including God Himself. I don’t want to sidetrack from the concept of Eternal Damnation, so here is my opinion of Hell.

First, Experience is no longer a distant concept in my life. I’ve been married 30 years, raised 3 children, have 6 grandchildren, have pastored for 14 years, been in Apostolic Church for 32 years, and have read the Bible more times than I can count. I’ve suffered, rejoiced, fallen, risen, loved, hated, and have worked hard all of my life. God gives every man, Experience. Experience is our greatest teacher, and understanding comes to those who will endure the many years of everyday living.

Through Experience, we come to know the power and love of relationship. This is the most prominent part of a person; how they deal with people. Through love, patience, and much long suffering, we reap great knowledge concerning human compassion and mercy. We learn that those that come from our loins will always be our children. Even when they fail, we still love. Even when they hurt us, we still reach for them. And, never would we send them into Eternal Flames to suffer for the wrongs they’ve done in life. In the Bible, there are countless Scriptures that refer to God as our Father, and we His sons and daughters. We are able to compare God’s feeling for us through our earthly experience of Family.

Through History, we can analyze the past to see the downfalls of Societies, Religions, and Politics. We can see how people stood up with the Truth of Measurement, and how they were cast to the dogs of execution, imprisonment, and excommunication. History can also validate what God’s Chosen were taught. Nowhere in Jewish History before the New Testament, did the mainstay of Jewish society teach of such a place as Eternal Fire, where people would live in unending torment. This alone poses a huge problem, as suddenly this “Place” appears in more modern documents. If God determined this consequence or punishment for fallen mankind, it would have been known since the beginning. History would reveal a consistent pattern of something so brutal, but it doesn’t.

Science is beyond awesome, as we’ve come to learn things by the use of microscopes, x-rays, laboratories, telescopes, space travel, and so on. This allows us to verify; is the Earth flat or round? Does life begin in the womb? How can we conquer disease? How does the human body work? Is it possible to predict the weather? By Science, we can look at Religion to validate a hoax or Truth. I started a Thread on Noah’s Ark, revealing a scientific catastrophe that many have never considered. Food, water, animal waste, the ability of the Ark being able to even float, all this and more revealed a host of problems that we mustn’t ignore. Eternal Hell, in its scientific form is beyond sick. People wailing forever in flames and darkness, when measured, leaves even the worst of humanity as saints. I’m not even sure Hitler could stand by, listening to the screams of people in agony as they begged for deliverance into the eons of nothingness.

Common Sense is nothing more than simple sense. In my line of work there is what is called the Golden Rule. As an insurance agent, I’m required to use this common sense approach when advising my clients; what would I do for myself? This works, as I look across my desk when people are asking me what they should do to protect themselves. According to Scripture, God made man in His image. I believe we have a basic format in us that relates directly to our Creator. Mercy, love, forgiveness, and many other attributes were birthed in us by the One who made us. Looking at the Christian Hell, common sense in me does not understand why God would continue to allow man to propagate the Earth so the belly of Hell can be full. If mankind is truly that bad, this whole mess should have been done away with long ago.

When Jesus walked this Earth, consider these people; The Adulterous Woman, the Sinner smiting his breast, the Prodigal Son, the Woman at the well, the Thief on the cross, those who crucified Jesus (Father forgive them, for they know not what they do), the Demoniac, the Roman Centurion, the man left dead in the ditch by thieves. Everywhere you turn, you find Jesus extending mercy to the fallen and sick. Sorry, but I can’t imagine Jesus sending people over a cliff into this extreme chasm of Torture. It just doesn’t measure up. It’s not the same Jesus that was reaching to the dead, hungry, and lonely. It’s not the same Jesus who killed the fatted calf when the son came home. It’s not the same Jesus who reached into a grave and raised a dead man.

Eternal Damnation appears to be an onslaught of Interpretation/Translation error. I’ve attached a link at the bottom that reveals a host of problems concerning our current understanding of what Hell is via the Bible we use.

What happens after we die is a mystery. I don’t have a telephone to call God on, asking Him how things are going up there. The Jews of old went around and around over this. I’m honest, my take on the afterlife is uncertain, and I leave that to God. Everyone wants to live forever in peace, joy, love, and where we cry no more. But I’m not there yet, so I can’t say what it’s like. I want to be safe, so I admit my lack of understanding to the Lord. I cry, and ask Him to help me in my limited form and frame. I beat my chest daily, and I know I’m just a man.

I see this World as God’s doing. He made everything. And, He is well able to redeem the unredeemable.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html


Very interesting and thoughtful. Many valid points that should be seriously considered.

Let me ask you this concerning heaven...the book of Revelation seems to be clear and detailed as to this subject. Where would you fit that book into this discussion?

[Michael The Disciple]

EXCELLENT and TREMENDOUS exegesis, Michael the Theologian. Everything is clear now. One person says, "I have a differing opinion." Michael the Theologian says, "You're going to burn in hell and the devil loves you."

We need more of you!!!

Glad to be appreciated friend!

[Mr. Smith]

Glad to be appreciated friend!


Well man, I was just in awe at how you took scripture, tied it together, were exegetically and hermeneutically thorough and...........wait. You didn't use any scripture. Sorry, I must have you confused with someone who actually uses the bible.

[BroGary]

Amen, are we not glad someone cared enough to warn us we needed to be born again !

Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

As far as those who say what about those who never heard the gospel, well first of all I believe that if God saw that someone was hungry to know Him in Spirit and in truth that He would make a way for them to hear, and the Bible says that mankind will be without excuse.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

God does not want any to be lost, but it is up to each individual's free will choice to decide to obey the gospel and receive the salvation that God made possible.

God's love was shown by the ultimate sacrifice at Calvary to make it POSSIBLE for any to be saved, but God has given mankind a free will to choose, and those who reject God are making their choice and will suffer the consequences of their choice.

IF everyone was going to end up being saved reguardless of their choice to not obey the truth, then why would there even be any need to preach the gospel ? (but we know everyone is not going to be saved reguardless)

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

(ignorance will not be a valid excuse, see Romans 1:20)

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is VERY serious business folks, PLEASE do not give people a false hope that they will end up being saved reguardless of their choices, they must obey the gospel and endure faithful to the end !

[NotforSale]

God's love was shown by the ultimate sacrifice at Calvary to make it POSSIBLE for any to be saved, but God has given mankind a free will to choose, and those who reject God are making their choice and will suffer the consequences of their choice.

IF everyone was going to end up being saved reguardless of their choice to not obey the truth, then why would there even be any need to preach the gospel ? (but we know everyone is not going to be saved reguardless)

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

(ignorance will not be a valid excuse, see Romans 1:20)

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is VERY serious business folks, PLEASE do not give people a false hope that they will end up being saved reguardless of their choices, they must obey the gospel and endure faithful to the end !

So, Gary, why does Eternal Hell appear in the New Testament and not the Old? The Jews did not teach nor believe in such a place, and still don’t.

Since you are so sure about Hell, who will go there and who won't? Remember, we can't guess. There is no room for guessing. You’re either in or out. We can’t be in error, as the consequence is too great. You talk about rejecting or choosing God; what do you mean by this? When does a person fully choose or reject God? Is there an in-between or any wiggle room?

Do people have to speak in tongues to be saved? What about sin? What if I die with strife against my brother? What if I gossiped the day of my death? What if I lied moments before my last breath? What about children who die young? What about people who are retarded or mentally handicapped?

What about a majority of the Human Race who have never heard the Gospel or of Eternal Damnation? Modern forms of the Bible were not available to the common people until the 16th and 17th Centuries, as printing presses were unavailable.

What about backsliders? Was the Prodigal Son ever truly lost? Would the Adulterous Woman who was pardoned in this life by Jesus, be pardoned in the next life by Jesus? Guilt is guilt.

Why did Jesus constantly forgive people whom the Religious wouldn't? About the only place Jesus didn't have mercy was upon the Church or those who thought they were "Saved".

You fail to address the hard questions, putting yourself above others by thinking you won’t go to Hell and they will. This is the darkest form of Faith on Earth, and the exact reasoning that the Righteous Pharisee used when standing next to the publican who admitted his fault and need for mercy.

Gary, this World is a mess. Choosing a Religion is beyond hard. Understanding the Bible is a maze of opinions and voices. Every Denomination thinks they are right. I’m so glad God sees our unending fallacy of failure and inability to save ourselves, even with Religion.

Our only hope is His Grace, not our ability to do things right.

[BroGary]

So, Gary, why does Eternal Hell appear in the New Testament and not the Old? The Jews did not teach nor believe in such a place, and still don’t.

Since you are so sure about Hell, who will go there and who won't? Remember, we can't guess. There is no room for guessing. You’re either in or out. We can’t be in error, as the consequence is too great. You talk about rejecting or choosing God; what do you mean by this? When does a person fully choose or reject God? Is there an in-between or any wiggle room?

Do people have to speak in tongues to be saved? What about sin? What if I die with strife against my brother? What if I gossiped the day of my death? What if I lied moments before my last breath? What about children who die young? What about people who are retarded or mentally handicapped?

What about a majority of the Human Race who have never heard the Gospel or of Eternal Damnation? Modern forms of the Bible were not available to the common people until the 16th and 17th Centuries, as printing presses were unavailable.

What about backsliders? Was the Prodigal Son ever truly lost? Would the Adulterous Woman who was pardoned in this life by Jesus, be pardoned in the next life by Jesus? Guilt is guilt.

Why did Jesus constantly forgive people whom the Religious wouldn't? About the only place Jesus didn't have mercy was upon the Church or those who thought they were "Saved".

You fail to address the hard questions, putting yourself above others by thinking you won’t go to Hell and they will. This is the darkest form of Faith on Earth, and the exact reasoning that the Righteous Pharisee used when standing next to the publican who admitted his fault and need for mercy.

Gary, this World is a mess. Choosing a Religion is beyond hard. Understanding the Bible is a maze of opinions and voices. Every Denomination thinks they are right. I’m so glad God sees our unending fallacy of failure and inability to save ourselves, even with Religion.

Our only hope is His Grace, not our ability to do things right.

Anyone who has strayed from their walk with God can repent and be restored.

It is obvious that the those who have not the sense of being able to tell right from wrong (the very young, ect) can't be held accountable, that is why Acts 2:38 says "repent" and be baptized, if you are too young to yet understand right from wrong you can't be expected to be able to repent and that is why we do not believe in infant baptism, because infants can't repent because they have not yet reached the point of being able to understand right from wrong.

It will be the lake of fire that is forever as the scriptures says, and if the OT doesn't mention the lake of fire it does not make it any less Bible truth.

What I already said, as well as the scriptures mentioned, should answer several of your questions also.

No offense, I mean this sincerely, do you want to risk your, or anyone else's eternity by hoping that everyone will end up saved reguardless of their choices ? Given what the Bible says I sincerely hope not.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Eddie's doing a series on Transformers - about reaching the lost and their lives being transformed. Last week he spoke about hell - it was very sobering, but not done in a scary way. I think it has to be preached if we believe it's real.

I agree!

Don't have to dwell on it. Don't have to be manipulative about it. Do have to be sober about it.

[Jason B]

I think it depends on which church you go to. I've heard hundreds of sermons about sin and hell (primarily relating to dress standards and television)... but I've never heard one sermon or lesson on Heaven itself.

When was the last time anyone here has heard a sermon or lesson specifically about "Heaven"??? When was the last time anyone here has heard a sermon specifically about "Hell" or going to Hell where Hell was described? I'm willing to wager we've heard far more about Hell.

I have heard a sermon (1) about heaven.

[Jason B]

I certainly believe in hell, and believe it should be preached.

I am also in favor of taking a hard look at the doctrine of hell as a whole. I still believe it exists, I think that is clear to anyone who believes the scriptures to be the Word of God. (N4s doesn't affirm the inerrancy/inspiration of the Bible)

[Esther]

So, Gary, why does Eternal Hell appear in the New Testament and not the Old? The Jews did not teach nor believe in such a place, and still don’t.

Since you are so sure about Hell, who will go there and who won't? Remember, we can't guess. There is no room for guessing. You’re either in or out. We can’t be in error, as the consequence is too great. You talk about rejecting or choosing God; what do you mean by this? When does a person fully choose or reject God? Is there an in-between or any wiggle room?

Do people have to speak in tongues to be saved? What about sin? What if I die with strife against my brother? What if I gossiped the day of my death? What if I lied moments before my last breath? What about children who die young? What about people who are retarded or mentally handicapped?

What about a majority of the Human Race who have never heard the Gospel or of Eternal Damnation? Modern forms of the Bible were not available to the common people until the 16th and 17th Centuries, as printing presses were unavailable.

What about backsliders? Was the Prodigal Son ever truly lost? Would the Adulterous Woman who was pardoned in this life by Jesus, be pardoned in the next life by Jesus? Guilt is guilt.

Why did Jesus constantly forgive people whom the Religious wouldn't? About the only place Jesus didn't have mercy was upon the Church or those who thought they were "Saved".

You fail to address the hard questions, putting yourself above others by thinking you won’t go to Hell and they will. This is the darkest form of Faith on Earth, and the exact reasoning that the Righteous Pharisee used when standing next to the publican who admitted his fault and need for mercy.

Gary, this World is a mess. Choosing a Religion is beyond hard. Understanding the Bible is a maze of opinions and voices. Every Denomination thinks they are right. I’m so glad God sees our unending fallacy of failure and inability to save ourselves, even with Religion.

Our only hope is His Grace, not our ability to do things right.

Just curious NFS do you believe everything must be in the OT and the NT?

and as to all your other questions, the Bible says Broad is the way to destruction. (paraphased)

[Shawn]

Define destruction.
Was Sodom destroyed?

[BroGary]

Define destruction.
Was Sodom destroyed?

(Rev. 20:10, 15 makes things very clear)

God's love was shown by the ultimate sacrifice at Calvary to make it POSSIBLE for any to be saved, but God has given mankind a free will to choose, and those who reject God are making their choice and will suffer the consequences of their choice.

IF everyone was going to end up being saved reguardless of their choice to not obey the truth, then why would there even be any need to preach the gospel ? (but we know everyone is not going to be saved reguardless)

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

(ignorance will not be a valid excuse, see Romans 1:20)

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is VERY serious business folks, PLEASE do not give people a false hope that they will end up being saved reguardless of their choices, they must obey the gospel and endure faithful to the end !

[NotforSale]

(Rev. 20:10, 15 makes things very clear)

God's love was shown by the ultimate sacrifice at Calvary to make it POSSIBLE for any to be saved, but God has given mankind a free will to choose, and those who reject God are making their choice and will suffer the consequences of their choice.

IF everyone was going to end up being saved reguardless of their choice to not obey the truth, then why would there even be any need to preach the gospel ? (but we know everyone is not going to be saved reguardless)

This is VERY serious business folks, PLEASE do not give people a false hope that they will end up being saved reguardless of their choices, they must obey the gospel and endure faithful to the end !

Come on, Gary, define the point. Your broad brush leaves way to many doors open.

Who is lost, and who is saved? If the Gospel is so easy to understand, why are there over 30,000 Christian Denominations in the World claiming a take on Salvation, and, which one is right?

I asked in you in another post; was the Prodigal Son ever lost? If you say yes, at what point? Then, at what point was he saved again? If we can't define the point, Hell is guess work and we can't afford to guess on such a tragic end to Humanity.

If Jesus could forgive the Adulterous Woman in this life, what makes us think he can't forgive her in the next life?

Did you even look at the link I attached? The link proves, Eternal Damnation is Theological mistake. Here is a short excerpt from the link;

Another pleasant change which more Bible translations of the future will make deals with the subject of the words "everlasting," "eternal," and "for ever and ever." These words have been used in times past to translate the Hebrew word "olam," and its Greek counterpart "aion," and its adjective, "aionios." These ancient words should NEVER have been translated this way. Many modern scholars are beginning to cut against the grain of tradition and speak the truth which has been shackled by the chains of tradition long enough. It's time for light. The body of Christ has had enough of living in the shadows. It's time for pure light!

Dr. G. Campbell Morgan, a well-known Bible teacher, hailed as "the prince of expositors" wrote in his book "God's Method's With Men" on pages 185, 6, "Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how to use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is NO word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our 'eternal,' which as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end."

The above statement may come as a shock to the traditional Christian in the typical Church. It was certainly a shock to me. How could he make what appeared to me such a ridiculous statement. The Bible translations I had were FILLED with verses that spoke of things which were "eternal," "everlasting," and went on "forever and ever." How could he be hailed as a renowned Bible teacher and be given the honor of being called by the evangelical world the "prince of expositors" and yet make what appeared to me based upon my few Bible translations an utterly ridiculous statement? But when I decided to dig through my walls of tradition to see if what the famous Doctor Morgan said was true, I found MANY other well-known and respected scholars and Bible teachers had come to the very same conclusions to which Dr. Morgan had come.

We must, and may I reiterate MUST, love the Truth regardless if our Traditional view of Scripture is at risk. It doesn't matter which Church we attend, if error is found, then corrections must be made. This is probably the greatest form of bondage known to any Faith; Tradition.

[NotforSale]

Here's the link;

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html

[BroGary]

Come on, Gary, define the point. Your broad brush leaves way to many doors open.

Who is lost, and who is saved? If the Gospel is so easy to understand, why are there over 30,000 Christian Denominations in the World claiming a take on Salvation, and, which one is right?

I asked in you in another post; was the Prodigal Son ever lost? If you say yes, at what point? Then, at what point was he saved again? If we can't define the point, Hell is guess work and we can't afford to guess on such a tragic end to Humanity.

If Jesus could forgive the Adulterous Woman in this life, what makes us think he can't forgive her in the next life?

Did you even look at the link I attached? The link proves, Eternal Damnation is Theological mistake. Here is a short excerpt from the link;

Another pleasant change which more Bible translations of the future will make deals with the subject of the words "everlasting," "eternal," and "for ever and ever." These words have been used in times past to translate the Hebrew word "olam," and its Greek counterpart "aion," and its adjective, "aionios." These ancient words should NEVER have been translated this way. Many modern scholars are beginning to cut against the grain of tradition and speak the truth which has been shackled by the chains of tradition long enough. It's time for light. The body of Christ has had enough of living in the shadows. It's time for pure light!

Dr. G. Campbell Morgan, a well-known Bible teacher, hailed as "the prince of expositors" wrote in his book "God's Method's With Men" on pages 185, 6, "Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how to use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is NO word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our 'eternal,' which as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end."

The above statement may come as a shock to the traditional Christian in the typical Church. It was certainly a shock to me. How could he make what appeared to me such a ridiculous statement. The Bible translations I had were FILLED with verses that spoke of things which were "eternal," "everlasting," and went on "forever and ever." How could he be hailed as a renowned Bible teacher and be given the honor of being called by the evangelical world the "prince of expositors" and yet make what appeared to me based upon my few Bible translations an utterly ridiculous statement? But when I decided to dig through my walls of tradition to see if what the famous Doctor Morgan said was true, I found MANY other well-known and respected scholars and Bible teachers had come to the very same conclusions to which Dr. Morgan had come.

We must, and may I reiterate MUST, love the Truth regardless if our Traditional view of Scripture is at risk. It doesn't matter which Church we attend, if error is found, then corrections must be made. This is probably the greatest form of bondage known to any Faith; Tradition.

Nothing personal, but I disagree with the belief that "everyone will be saved reguardless of their choices".

From the day of Pentecost onward people are required to obey the gospel, the apostle Peter preached on the day of Pentecost how to obey the gospel.

There are way too many scriptures you would have to ignore to not believe that everyone will not be saved and that punishment for the lost is eternal, and that there are no second chances after this life.

I read online that G. Campbell Morgan described the Azusa Street activities as "the last vomit of Satan." in an anti-pentecostal book written by Michael L. Brown, so it doesn't surprise me that he would hold to such false doctrine.

It seems that such false doctrines as "everyone will be saved" can be tied to such ecumenical false groups as the "Emergent Movement" and people like Rick Warren -

http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=8488

http://apprising.org/2008/09/21/everyones-going-to-be-saved-eventuallyarent-they/

The above links are not apostolic, but they at least show the falseness of the "no eternal punishment" and "everyone will be saved" heresies.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

[NotforSale]

Nothing personal, but I disagree with the belief that "everyone will be saved reguardless of their choices".

From the day of Pentecost onward people are required to obey the gospel, the apostle Peter preached on the day of Pentecost how to obey the gospel.

There are way too many scriptures you would have to ignore to not believe that everyone will not be saved and that punishment for the lost is eternal, and that there are no second chances after this life.

I read online that G. Campbell Morgan described the Azusa Street activities as "the last vomit of Satan." in an anti-pentecostal book written by Michael L. Brown, so it doesn't surprise me that he would hold to such false doctrine.

It seems that such false doctrines as "everyone will be saved" can be tied to such ecumenical false groups as the "Emergent Movement" and people like Rick Warren -

http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=8488

http://apprising.org/2008/09/21/everyones-going-to-be-saved-eventuallyarent-they/

The above links are not apostolic, but they at least show the falseness of the "no eternal punishment" and "everyone will be saved" heresies.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

You did not refute Mr. Campbell's approach on the subject with facts, just a personal problem he had with a specific ideal that you seem to agree with. The Apostolic Church is full of "Nut Cases" who've made the exact same kind of statements Mr. Campbell said (If he said it. I did not research your claim). Preachers in Pentecost have railed the World of Religion with prideful and arrogant statements that are poisoned with the idea that “We Have the TRUTH!” and everyone else is lost.

Then, after accusing me of using Mr. Campbell's statement, you refer me to Non Apostolic links that reek with the Trinity, watered down Salvation, and Holiness differences that I'm sure are worlds apart from what you believe. In fact, I copied a piece from the link you used, and here is what they believe;

In the one true and living God; affirming the Holy Trinity — within the nature of the one God, there exists three Co-equal and Co-eternal Persons. God the Father; God the Son-Jesus of Nazareth, Who is the Christ; and God the Holy Spirit.

Again, you avoid the facts with your idea, and, you avoid the countless Scriptures that defend my view and opinion on Eternal Damnation. Debating with you is a waste of time if you continue down this path. I've asked you numerous point, blank questions, and you won't answer them because you know they will corner you as the judge of something you can’t prove.

You also put words in my mouth. I never said "Everyone" will be saved. I'm debating the facts of "Eternal Damnation" or “Eternal Fire”.

[Shawn]

I noticed ya didn't answer the question, Gary, my friend.

[BroGary]

You did not refute Mr. Campbell's approach on the subject with facts, just a personal problem he had with a specific ideal that you seem to agree with. The Apostolic Church is full of "Nut Cases" who've made the exact same kind of statements Mr. Campbell said (If he said it. I did not research your claim). Preachers in Pentecost have railed the World of Religion with prideful and arrogant statements that are poisoned with the idea that “We Have the TRUTH!” and everyone else is lost.

Then, after accusing me of using Mr. Campbell's statement, you refer me to Non Apostolic links that reek with the Trinity, watered down Salvation, and Holiness differences that I'm sure are worlds apart from what you believe. In fact, I copied a piece from the link you used, and here is what they believe;

In the one true and living God; affirming the Holy Trinity — within the nature of the one God, there exists three Co-equal and Co-eternal Persons. God the Father; God the Son-Jesus of Nazareth, Who is the Christ; and God the Holy Spirit.

Again, you avoid the facts with your idea, and, you avoid the countless Scriptures that defend my view and opinion on Eternal Damnation. Debating with you is a waste of time if you continue down this path. I've asked you numerous point, blank questions, and you won't answer them because you know they will corner you as the judge of something you can’t prove.

You also put words in my mouth. I never said "Everyone" will be saved. I'm debating the facts of "Eternal Damnation" or “Eternal Fire”.

I made it clear that they were not apostolic links so their other beliefs are a non-issue in relation to this discussion.

Well, if you believe that punishment for the lost is not eternal, isn't that basically saying that everyone will eventually be saved ?

You asked who would be saved if I remember right, and I showed that the scripture shows it is those who obey the gospel. (and the apostle Peter preached on the day of Pentecost how to obey the gospel)

Easy believism will not save anyone -

http://www.upcbaypoint.com/Articles/more-than-easy-believism.html

Again, you would have to ignore a lot of verses to actually think that the punishment of the lost is not eternal.

(and if you don't have faith to believe that God is powerful enough to make sure His Word would be preserved as He wanted it to be, then you have no real foundation to base any belief on)

quoted from the apostolic link below:

"Without the hope of spending eternity in the presence of God or the threat of being punished with eternal separation and condemnation, there is little reason to consider the need for salvation. Jesus taught the doctrines of Heaven and Hell more than any other Bible voice. If Jesus Christ is to be believed, then so are the doctrines of Heaven and Hell."

http://kenraggio.com/KR-MansNeedForSalvation.htm

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

[crakjak]

Jesus taught more on hell than heaven. Why? Because He wants to do all He can to get you to not go there.

This society has more evil in games, movies, etc and now I hear we "fear" talking about hell. Right! Who fears that?

Should our relationship with God be built on fear? NO!

God is love!

But you are doing a disservice to the people if you don't teach about Heaven and Hell. There are two destination for eternity, would be good to know about both.

Sorry Esther, it is just not true. Jesue did not speak of hell more than Heaven, it is however a much believed myth that He did.

[Falla39]

Hey, Crakjak,

Not to hijack this thread, but are you back from your Alaskan Second Honeymoon cruise! If so, why not start a new thread and tell us about
it!

Falla39

[crakjak]

Hey, Crakjak,

Not to hijack this thread, but are you back from your Alaskan Second Honeymoon cruise! If so, why not start a new thread and tell us about
it!

Falla39

Yeah, we returned late last night, it will take a few days to get pictures and info together to share.

[geekette]

I remember hearing a sermon back in 1989 about getting the reality of hell into our hearts. I was really disturbed by this sermon. People were going up to the front and praying to get the reality of hell into their hearts. I got up and walked around this city block and came back and people were still praying. If I'd driven myself, I would have left. I didn't, so I had to stay and listen to it all.

What I got out of that sermon? Well, I decided that if God had a hell, then he wasn't worthy of worship. We don't let human beings do what God is supposed to be doing to the unrighteous and disobedient--we put them in jail. But it's just OK for God to torture people for eternities on end.

No. I won't worship a god like that. So yeah, that sermon on hell backfired on me. It was probably the spark that propelled me out of the church, even if it took over 15 years.

I'm dead serious about this, by the way.

[coadie]

I remember hearing a sermon back in 1989 about getting the reality of hell into our hearts. I was really disturbed by this sermon. People were going up to the front and praying to get the reality of hell into their hearts. I got up and walked around this city block and came back and people were still praying. If I'd driven myself, I would have left. I didn't, so I had to stay and listen to it all.

What I got out of that sermon? Well, I decided that if God had a hell, then he wasn't worthy of worship. We don't let human beings do what God is supposed to be doing to the unrighteous and disobedient--we put them in jail. But it's just OK for God to torture people for eternities on end.

No. I won't worship a god like that. So yeah, that sermon on hell backfired on me. It was probably the spark that propelled me out of the church, even if it took over 15 years.

I'm dead serious about this, by the way.

21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

[Liberal]

21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


Verse 23 isn't a reference to hell but more of a reference to bringing them out of the false teaching of those who were spreading false doctrine in the early church. There are also elements of reference to Old Testament Israel who was repeatedly rescued out of the fire of idolatry yet was never truly thankful. You may want to look closely at Zechariah and Amos.

[coadie]

Verse 23 isn't a reference to hell but more of a reference to bringing them out of the false teaching of those who were spreading false doctrine in the early church. There are also elements of reference to Old Testament Israel who was repeatedly rescued out of the fire of idolatry yet was never truly thankful. You may want to look closely at Zechariah and Amos.


I cover this in Home bible studies. Shepherds that are negligent.

15And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.

16For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.

17Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

[Liberal]

I cover this in Home bible studies. Shepherds that are negligent.

15And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.

16For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.

17Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.


So, like I said, Jude 1:23 isn't talking about hell.

[geekette]

What I don't understand is why God is so very unforgiving.

In Matthew 18:21-22, we have this:

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

I'm supposed to forgive someone "seventy times seven" but God can't find it in his heart to forgive someone who may have believed the wrong way even once? Or stole a pencil? Or broke the speed limit? Or said a harsh word to their child? Etc., etc.That's what hell is to me: a demonstration of God's inability to forgive.

Just writing this I have tears in my eyes. It hurts to even think this. Yes, I got the reality of hell in my heart, to the point that if it's true, I don't want anything to do with the alleged god in charge. If I can, should and must be more forgiving than God....

[Liberal]

What I don't understand is why God is so very unforgiving.

In Matthew 18:21-22, we have this:



I'm supposed to forgive someone "seventy times seven" but God can't find it in his heart to forgive someone who may have believed the wrong way even once? Or stole a pencil? Or broke the speed limit? Or said a harsh word to their child? Etc., etc.That's what hell is to me: a demonstration of God's inability to forgive.

Just writing this I have tears in my eyes. It hurts to even think this. Yes, I got the reality of hell in my heart, to the point that if it's true, I don't want anything to do with the alleged god in charge. If I can, should and must be more forgiving than God....


Wow, good thoughts. I know what others will probably say to this, but I appreciate your words.

[coadie]

What I don't understand is why God is so very unforgiving.

In Matthew 18:21-22, we have this:



I'm supposed to forgive someone "seventy times seven" but God can't find it in his heart to forgive someone who may have believed the wrong way even once? Or stole a pencil? Or broke the speed limit? Or said a harsh word to their child? Etc., etc.That's what hell is to me: a demonstration of God's inability to forgive.

Just writing this I have tears in my eyes. It hurts to even think this. Yes, I got the reality of hell in my heart, to the point that if it's true, I don't want anything to do with the alleged god in charge. If I can, should and must be more forgiving than God....

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might ...

[Twisp]

What I don't understand is why God is so very unforgiving.

In Matthew 18:21-22, we have this:



I'm supposed to forgive someone "seventy times seven" but God can't find it in his heart to forgive someone who may have believed the wrong way even once? Or stole a pencil? Or broke the speed limit? Or said a harsh word to their child? Etc., etc.That's what hell is to me: a demonstration of God's inability to forgive.

Just writing this I have tears in my eyes. It hurts to even think this. Yes, I got the reality of hell in my heart, to the point that if it's true, I don't want anything to do with the alleged god in charge. If I can, should and must be more forgiving than God....

Never thought of it that way. Good point.

[geekette]

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might ...

He couldn't forgive me even once without having to put someone else to death for it? I'm supposed to forgive seventy times seven.

[Timmy]

He couldn't forgive me even once without having to put someone else to death for it? I'm supposed to forgive seventy times seven.

You might be interested in these posts:

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=904508#post904508

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=908858#post908858

And in this thread, where I tried to get some discussion going:

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=30422

;)

[crakjak]

What I don't understand is why God is so very unforgiving.

In Matthew 18:21-22, we have this:



I'm supposed to forgive someone "seventy times seven" but God can't find it in his heart to forgive someone who may have believed the wrong way even once? Or stole a pencil? Or broke the speed limit? Or said a harsh word to their child? Etc., etc.That's what hell is to me: a demonstration of God's inability to forgive.

Just writing this I have tears in my eyes. It hurts to even think this. Yes, I got the reality of hell in my heart, to the point that if it's true, I don't want anything to do with the alleged god in charge. If I can, should and must be more forgiving than God....

Have you read my posts on this subject, I have a history here fighting this blasphemy against God?? You will have to go to the debate area to read them, this is a forbidden subject in the Fellowship Hall.