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corvet786c
09-03-2010, 01:19 PM
This blew me away when I read it.


http://www.truthorfables.com/Tithe_Test.htm

coadie
09-03-2010, 01:23 PM
This blew me away when I read it.


http://www.truthorfables.com/Tithe_Test.htm

Exposing Seventh-day Adventist Fables


Are you all familiar with SDA's?

corvet786c
09-03-2010, 01:29 PM
Notice: Dr. Sapp is not affiliated or ever have affiliated with the SDA church, so do not write him about Seventh-day Adventist/Ellen G. White issues.

Sister Alvear
09-03-2010, 01:43 PM
however he seems very informed about SDA...

coadie
09-03-2010, 01:53 PM
Notice: Dr. Sapp is not affiliated or ever have affiliated with the SDA church, so do not write him about Seventh-day Adventist/Ellen G. White issues.

I saw that. He argues against them. He understands their fundamental doctrines i suspect.

corvet786c
09-03-2010, 02:17 PM
In the Christian Church, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar (1 Corinthians 9:13), provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers. In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of conscience. The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the canons of the Council of Maçon in 585. In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom. The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself" (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30). As regards the civil power, the Christian Roman emperors granted the right to churches of retaining a portion of the produce of certain lands, but the earliest instance of the enforcement of the payment of ecclesiastical tithes by civil law is to be found in the capitularies of Charlemagne, at the end of the eighth century. English law very early recognized the tithe, as in the reigns of Athelstan, Edgar, and Canute before the Norman Conquest. In English statute law proper, however, the first mention of tithes is to be found in the Statute of Westminister of 1285. Tithes are of three kinds: predial, or that derived from the annual crops; mixed, or what arises from things nourished by the land, as cattle, milk, cheese, wool; and personal or the result of industry or occupation. Predial tithes were generally called great tithes, and mixed and personal tithes, small tithes. Natural substances having no annual increase are not tithable, nor are wild animals. When property is inherited or donated, it is not subject to the law of tithes, but its natural increase is. There are many exempted from the paying of tithes: spiritual corporations, the owners of uncultivated lands, those who have acquired lawful prescription, or have obtained a legal renunciation, or received a privilege from the pope.


This is from the catholic encyclopedia


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14741b.htm

Its refrencing the council of macon in 585 AD where the obligation was developed to pay tithes to the clergy of the catholic church. The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself" (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30). As regards the civil power, the Christian Roman emperors granted the right to churches of retaining a portion of the produce of certain lands, but the earliest instance of the enforcement of the payment of ecclesiastical tithes by civil law is to be found in the capitularies of Charlemagne, at the end of the eighth century.

A.W. Bowman
09-03-2010, 06:23 PM
Actually, Dr. Sapp could well have been talking about any number of modern-day churches/organizations.

However, here are a couple of additional points:

To receive or to give biblical tithes that does not end in the hands of the Levitical priesthood, those serving in the Temple (not the synagogues), is a violation of the Covenant law.

That the tithe was only a portion of the support the Priesthood received, i.e., that the bulk of their food stuff was produced by the tribe of Levi in the assigned land around Jerusalem and the Cities of Refugee. They also engaged in the trades and professions, for not every member of the Tribe served in the Temple.

The the tithes were paid only in certain years and that the Levite priests were to tithe on their tithes to the High Priest and also to set aside a tithe for the poor, the widows, fatherless, and the 'strangers' (non Jews) that were among them, even for everyone who served in the Temple.This was the subject that Malachi was addressing in his book.

While the list can go one for several pages, let's cut to the chase.

Ever wonder why observant Jews will neither pay or receive tithes? Because there is no longer a functioning Levitical priesthood and there is no Temple of the Lord to serve in. Synagogues are not supported by tithes! The bottom line is this, to require tithing or to pay tithes according to a legal mandate, is to sin.

The first sin is in violation of Deuteronomy 12:32, where man has altered [done violence to] the word of God for their own benefit, and/or to advance a human centered agenda. Where man has taken scripture out of context, twisted it, modified it, and combined it with other such mishandled scriptures, and presented the resulting human doctrine as being directly from God.

The second sin is: Without the Temple and its functioning priesthood, tithing is reduced the paying of a religiously mandated bribe or tribute to one who is not authorized by the Law to receive it. Sometimes this payment is required before one is allowed to exercise their God ordained calling and/or gifting within a church. This man imposed tribute is sometimes referred to extortion, another biblically defined sin. This activity takes on a sinister aspect when those demanding tithes be paid to them appeal to the Mt. Sinai Covenant Law, that they frequently reject in favor for New Covenant grace – neither knowing or understanding the Law they embrace, nor the grace they seek. See 1 Timothy 1:7. Biblical giving is a principle of sharing with those in need, where tithing is strictly of the ordinances and statutes of the Law.

Why are these two actions considered to be 'sin', because, as noted in 1John 3:4 [KJV]),
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

A very nice and concise definition of what sin is. Also remembering, that by faith we actually establish the Law (God’s Instructions in Righteousness). See Romans 3:31.

But, what about the question of supporting the ministry?

First, not all who minister are to be supported by a congregation. The biblical adage of he “who doesn’t work, doesn’t eat”, still hold true. When an elder is a pointed within an assembly, he does not retire from life and become a ‘full-time’ minister who is to be supported upon the backs of the congregation. However, we have ample examples of Paul exhorting the different churches to send our and to receive those who are traveling within their ministerial office and performing assigned ministerial duties. Those who must travel, such as apostles, prophets and evangelists, and others sent out to minister to several assembles, are to receive clothing, housing, food, and monetary assistance to support them while ministering and to give them support on their travels. This is right and should be an expected norm of behavior.

Concerning the argument that if tithing was not taught as a required, how would the local church support its self (survive)? There are two fallacies here: The first is the assumption that the saints will not support the work of the church unless forced (badgered, made to feel guilty, badgered, blackmailed, etc.) into paying for the privilege of meeting together for worshiping God. Solution: Teach the concept, precept, and principles of giving, sharing, and supporting of the church ministry. The second fallacy is the prideful assumption that just because one evokes the name of Jesus, they automatically have His approval for their activities. It never seems to cross anyone’s mind that if a congregation cannot or will not support the local church building and its purported ministries, that perhaps that church/ministry should fold, and not kept functioning of forced support, even while its heart and brain have ceased to operate!

Remember, God will always show up according to the faith of individuals, even when the majority of the assembly is already dead. So, when He does manifest Himself, consider, He just might be there as a visitor in the house, not as the master of it.

-------------------

Do the math: 10 people making an average of $20,000 per year tithe. That yields $200,000 per year average congregational income. A tithe on that yields an annual income to the pastor of $20,000 per year. That worked out rather well all the way around.

Increase the number in the congregation to 40. 60, or 80, who make an average of $20,000 per year and tithe. At 80 members that is a congregational income of $1,600,000. The tithe on that equals $160,000. The pastor can now improve his lifestyle to eight times better than that of the average member of ‘his congregation’ – and all too frequently does! Now, tell me, what is the biblical/spiritual principle that this example of tithing is suppose to represent? Finally, take notice: The cross-pastoral charges of ‘sheep stealing’ now takes on its true significance. Number do count!

Question: When did the children of God become as livestock, to be milked and sheared by a shepherd, who may not even been called of God to that office? It is time to get back to the Bible. Biblical tithing was where eleven extended families (tribes) got together and provided partial food support for a portion of one extended family (tribe). Eleven tribes of Israel did not, and was not required to provide for all of the living needs of one tribe! To adopt that viewpoint is Roman thinking.

Jermyn Davidson
09-03-2010, 06:31 PM
So why do some people preach it as a blessings or cursings / heaven or hell issue?

Surely there has to be Bible to back this logic up. It can't be all "extra-biblical".

Even my Pastor preaches about the necessity of tithing-- the Bible commands, the blessings that flow from obedience and the cursings that come from disobedience.

coadie
09-03-2010, 06:41 PM
Actually, Dr. Sapp could well have been talking about any number of modern-day churches/organizations.

However, here are a couple of additional points:

To receive or to give biblical tithes that does not end in the hands of the Levitical priesthood, those serving in the Temple (not the synagogues), is a violation of the Covenant law.

That the tithe was only a portion of the support the Priesthood received, i.e., that the bulk of their food stuff was produced by the tribe of Levi in the assigned land around Jerusalem and the Cities of Refugee. They also engaged in the trades and professions, for not every member of the Tribe served in the Temple.

The the tithes were paid only in certain years and that the Levite priests were to tithe on their tithes to the High Priest and also to set aside a tithe for the poor, the widows, fatherless, and the 'strangers' (non Jews) that were among them, even for everyone who served in the Temple.This was the subject that Malachi was addressing in his book.

While the list can go one for several pages, let's cut to the chase.

Ever wonder why observant Jews will neither pay or receive tithes? Because there is no longer a functioning Levitical priesthood and there is no Temple of the Lord to serve in. Synagogues are not supported by tithes! The bottom line is this, to require tithing or to pay tithes according to a legal mandate, is to sin.

The first sin is in violation of Deuteronomy 12:32, where man has altered [done violence to] the word of God for their own benefit, and/or to advance a human centered agenda. Where man has taken scripture out of context, twisted it, modified it, and combined it with other such mishandled scriptures, and presented the resulting human doctrine as being directly from God.

The second sin is: Without the Temple and its functioning priesthood, tithing is reduced the paying of a religiously mandated bribe or tribute to one who is not authorized by the Law to receive it. Sometimes this payment is required before one is allowed to exercise their God ordained calling and/or gifting within a church. This man imposed tribute is sometimes referred to extortion, another biblically defined sin. This activity takes on a sinister aspect when those demanding tithes be paid to them appeal to the Mt. Sinai Covenant Law, that they frequently reject in favor for New Covenant grace – neither knowing or understanding the Law they embrace, nor the grace they seek. See 1 Timothy 1:7. Biblical giving is a principle of sharing with those in need, where tithing is strictly of the ordinances and statutes of the Law.

Why are these two actions considered to be 'sin', because, as noted in 1John 3:4 [KJV]),
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

A very nice and concise definition of what sin is. Also remembering, that by faith we actually establish the Law (God’s Instructions in Righteousness). See Romans 3:31.

But, what about the question of supporting the ministry?

First, not all who minister are to be supported by a congregation. The biblical adage of he “who doesn’t work, doesn’t eat”, still hold true. When an elder is a pointed within an assembly, he does not retire from life and become a ‘full-time’ minister who is to be supported upon the backs of the congregation. However, we have ample examples of Paul exhorting the different churches to send our and to receive those who are traveling within their ministerial office and performing assigned ministerial duties. Those who must travel, such as apostles, prophets and evangelists, and others sent out to minister to several assembles, are to receive clothing, housing, food, and monetary assistance to support them while ministering and to give them support on their travels. This is right and should be an expected norm of behavior.

Concerning the argument that if tithing was not taught as a required, how would the local church support its self (survive)? There are two fallacies here: The first is the assumption that the saints will not support the work of the church unless forced (badgered, made to feel guilty, badgered, blackmailed, etc.) into paying for the privilege of meeting together for worshiping God. Solution: Teach the concept, precept, and principles of giving, sharing, and supporting of the church ministry. The second fallacy is the prideful assumption that just because one evokes the name of Jesus, they automatically have His approval for their activities. It never seems to cross anyone’s mind that if a congregation cannot or will not support the local church building and its purported ministries, that perhaps that church/ministry should fold, and not kept functioning of forced support, even while its heart and brain have ceased to operate!

Remember, God will always show up according to the faith of individuals, even when the majority of the assembly is already dead. So, when He does manifest Himself, consider, He just might be there as a visitor in the house, not as the master of it.

-------------------

Do the math: 10 people making an average of $20,000 per year tithe. That yields $200,000 per year average congregational income. A tithe on that yields an annual income to the pastor of $20,000 per year. That worked out rather well all the way around.

Increase the number in the congregation to 40. 60, or 80, who make an average of $20,000 per year and tithe. At 80 members that is a congregational income of $1,600,000. The tithe on that equals $160,000. The pastor can now improve his lifestyle to eight times better than that of the average member of ‘his congregation’ – and all too frequently does! Now, tell me, what is the biblical/spiritual principle that this example of tithing is suppose to represent? Finally, take notice: The cross-pastoral charges of ‘sheep stealing’ now takes on its true significance. Number do count!

Question: When did the children of God become as livestock, to be milked and sheared by a shepherd, who may not even been called of God to that office? It is time to get back to the Bible. Biblical tithing was where eleven extended families (tribes) got together and provided partial food support for a portion of one extended family (tribe). Eleven tribes of Israel did not, and was not required to provide for all of the living needs of one tribe! To adopt that viewpoint is Roman thinking.

Our pastor doesn't look at records of offerings. I suspect the actual pattern varies within denominations.

A.W. Bowman
09-03-2010, 06:55 PM
So why do some people preach it as a blessings or cursings / heaven or hell issue?

Surely there has to be Bible to back this logic up. It can't be all "extra-biblical".

Even my Pastor preaches about the necessity of tithing-- the Bible commands, the blessings that flow from obedience and the cursings that come from disobedience.

Excellent points.

First, one must keep in mind that among some organizations tithing is considered as important as their stand on marriage and the second coming of Christ, i.e., the concept has be enshrined in some organization's statements/articles of faith. It is not likely any of these folks will change their opinions on this subject any time soon.

Now, is tithing, in and of its self, a sin? Absolutely not, so long as it freely given, and not paid out of compulsion as a religious mandated requirement. At one point my personal 'tithes' ranged up in the 20% area. I could afford it and the church needed it. When my fortune turned and I could no longer afford even 5%, I still gave what I could.

The lesson here is this, if one is going to attempt to use the law of tithing to justify requiring the congregation pay 10% of their total income to a church/minister, then one must teach and practice all of the laws, ordinances and statutes that govern tithing. If one places themselves under the Law, then they are also subject to the entire Law! There are no recorded exceptions to this doctrine, as ever having been granted by God.

We cannot claim any right to the tithe proceeds mandated under the law, while we are also agreeing that the ordinances of that same Law were nailed to the cross. Or, we are left with no option but to change the word of God so as to allow an exception in this case. This attitude toward scripture has to make someone out to be a lair and a false teacher.

Conclusion: There are no supporting scriptures for the modern-day doctrine on tithing. All referenced scriptures for this doctrine have to be taken out of their original context, and/or willfully misinterpreted. However, that freedom should allow one to give according to the New Covenant precepts. Give freely and abundantly, as you purpose in your heart to give - and in compassion to meet the needs of others.

The 'heaven or hell' issue for imposing tithing on a congregation is not scriptural, unless it is used to tempt one into sin.

And, be clear, not all obedience is scriptural!

Michael
09-03-2010, 06:58 PM
:banghead

A.W. Bowman
09-03-2010, 07:10 PM
As an aside, neither Jesus nor any of his disciple are recorded as having ever paid or received tithes - at any time. Even the payment of the 'required' temple tax was not highly though of by Jesus, but so as not to cause problems, he sent Peter down to the sea to fetch the necessary money. See Matthew 17:24-27.

SRM
09-03-2010, 08:53 PM
So why do some people preach it as a blessings or cursings / heaven or hell issue?

Surely there has to be Bible to back this logic up. It can't be all "extra-biblical".

Even my Pastor preaches about the necessity of tithing-- the Bible commands, the blessings that flow from obedience and the cursings that come from disobedience.

Maybe it is out of fear from not being fed,after all some Pastors do not hold down a 9 to 5 like most saints do.. please spare me the 24/7 talk I realize the burden they must have for the congregation but it could be some truth in that. Paul did speak on the fact that a preacher can be and should be supported but what a fine example of Paul to leave that He carried all that weight and was over many churches yet still had a trade to fall on..

It is also preached as a fire and brimstone message also from tradition..and it is taken out of context from Malachi..

Sam
09-03-2010, 09:29 PM
So why do some people preach it as a blessings or cursings / heaven or hell issue?

Surely there has to be Bible to back this logic up. It can't be all "extra-biblical".

Even my Pastor preaches about the necessity of tithing-- the Bible commands, the blessings that flow from obedience and the cursings that come from disobedience.

Tithing is a teaching/doctrine/practice we have carried over from the Roman Catholic Church.

Early Christians were at first Jewish. If they were farmers or had livestock they would continue tithing to the Levites at the Temple until the Temple was destroyed in AD 70. If they were tradesmen or fishermen they would not be tithing. After the destruction of the Temple, the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system naturally stopped. Tithing of income is a Roman Catholic teaching.

Sam
09-03-2010, 09:31 PM
So why do some people preach it as a blessings or cursings / heaven or hell issue?

Surely there has to be Bible to back this logic up. It can't be all "extra-biblical".

Even my Pastor preaches about the necessity of tithing-- the Bible commands, the blessings that flow from obedience and the cursings that come from disobedience.

Well, there are lots of things some preachers preach as heaven or hell issues that are not scriptural. Look at the "holiness standards" that are a large part of the preaching and teaching of some ministers.

corvet786c
09-04-2010, 05:12 AM
As an aside, neither Jesus nor any of his disciple are recorded as having ever paid or received tithes - at any time. Even the payment of the 'required' temple tax was not highly though of by Jesus, but so as not to cause problems, he sent Peter down to the sea to fetch the necessary money. See Matthew 17:24-27.

Wow very good points. I wish this was preached in our churches. Where is the faith of the church that God will bless them without recieving tithes? I was always taught that I would go to hell for not paying tithes as thiefs dont go to heaven so this topic is very sensitive to me. I am glad that the Lord opened my eyes to the truth which is to give from my heart and not be compelled or forced to give a mandate. Thank You again.

corvet786c
09-04-2010, 05:50 AM
As an aside, neither Jesus nor any of his disciple are recorded as having ever paid or received tithes - at any time. Even the payment of the 'required' temple tax was not highly though of by Jesus, but so as not to cause problems, he sent Peter down to the sea to fetch the necessary money. See Matthew 17:24-27.

To HaShaliach? How do you explain Gen 14 Where abram gave a tithe to melchizadek?

Most Modern Denominations take these verses and use it as eternal purpose for tithing? I know Abram did not tithe on his own possessions? Can you elaborate more on this?

A.W. Bowman
09-04-2010, 10:39 AM
Wow very good points. I wish this was preached in our churches. Where is the faith of the church that God will bless them without recieving tithes? I was always taught that I would go to hell for not paying tithes as thiefs dont go to heaven so this topic is very sensitive to me. I am glad that the Lord opened my eyes to the truth which is to give from my heart and not be compelled or forced to give a mandate. Thank You again.

You are welcome, my friend. Money has always been a stumbling block for mankind. It represents power, control, freedom of action, and an 'easy' life.People tend to hold on to their money, except to spend it on their own desires. Jesus taught to be free with your substance (money, clothes, food, etc.), and not to hoard it or spend it just on your personal desires. Rather, to give to the needy, help all who are in need of assistance, in what ever way you are able. But, don't just say, "be blessed" and turn aside from them and their need. The principle of giving/sharing is not taught in most churches because the way it is presented is generally not accepted by the assembly.

Giving, like tithing, is taught as a spiritual requirement, as opposed as to a Spirit induced heart condition. Giving remains a personal attitude that must first be addressed from a spiritual point of view, rather than from a legal position. We get so wrapped up in the legal aspects of the word we miss the grace of it. Study (very carefully) Matthew 5-7. Place the 'principle' of giving within this context rather than in a list of ordinances, and expect to see/experience miracles.

A.W. Bowman
09-04-2010, 10:41 AM
To HaShaliach? How do you explain Gen 14 Where abram gave a tithe to melchizadek?

Most Modern Denominations take these verses and use it as eternal purpose for tithing? I know Abram did not tithe on his own possessions? Can you elaborate more on this?

Thank you for submitting a great question.

Yet, let me first address one other pre-law tithing example, Jacob. See Genesis 28:20-22. While often times referred to, it is almost never preached. The reason is easy to discern. First, Jacob did not actually tithe anything, it was a promise – a conditional promise, contingent on God agreeing to and fulfilling a bargain. “I’ll give you, God, 10% of everything you give me in the future, if you will give me these things I want now.” When one does get a dose of Jacob’s tithing, it is pure humanism, a ‘what’s in it for me’ attitude. That is, “you can’t out give God”, the more you give, the more you get. The hand of God becomes a heavenly ATM machine with no withdrawal limits.

These are two things to notice here. First, there is no recorded record of Jacob every fulfilling part of the bargain (tithing). However, it should be safe to assume that he did, considering the rest of Jacob’s life. Second, there are no details concerning how or when he paid his tithes to God. For evidence of a universal ‘giving principle’, there is a noticeable lack of instructions and examples as to how this was to be accomplished.

Jacob’s tithe was a bargaining ploy with God which resulted in a Jacob incurring a legal debt. The paying of a debt has been never considered to the an offering of a ‘gift’. It is an obligation, a payment due, a legal requirement. To attempt to mix the concept of ‘gift giving’ with the obligation of ‘paying debts’ stretches scripture completely out of shape.

Finally, Jacob’s debt was to God, personally, and there was no man inserted between the payment maker and the payment receiver. How Jacob actually made his payment(s) to God remains an open speculation (actual items, methods, frequency, etc.). Even so, there is an implied biblical principle expressed in these verses. If one makes a vow to God, be quick to fulfill it. See Genesis 31, with emphasis on verses 11-14, and Psalms 50 with emphasis on verse 14.

Observation: Until the Mt. Sinai Covenant, it was always the man who set the standards of paying a tribute to God, not God Himself.

Next, a freewill offering of thanksgiving.

A.W. Bowman
09-04-2010, 10:44 AM
With Abraham’s tithing the scenario seems to be a little simpler.

Without a lot of specific history to back it up, it seems like the payment of taxes of one’s crops and livestock to the king was required of everyone for the support the local government, military, etc. Was it ten percent, fifty percent, or some set amount for each farm, or something else? I don’t know. Most likely, the annual tax depended on the king need/wants and the abundance of the crops and herds. For this example, let’s take ten percent as a working figure. Regardless –

What we have with Abraham and Melechizedek is another unique set of events.

Given: Abraham was a very wealthy man and really didn’t need any extra wealth (not greedy).

While Abraham moved about the land, there is no record of him ever paying taxes or a tribute to any king, except for one exception, Melechizedek.

The following has been pointed out many times, but it is required once again. Abraham is recorded to have paid tithe only once in his lifetime, and that was to Melechizedek, a king and high priest of God. [Special note: Abraham was not the only man to whom God made Himself known back in those ‘early days’.] Question, was it the accepted practice in those days for Melechizedek to receive tithes from his subjects, and/or those passing through his lands? In the office of high priest, did Melechizedek expect an additional offering of some kind?

The apparent answer to these questions is “No”. Because the only one who tithed was Abraham (and that was his own idea), not any member of his family nor any of those who accompanied him on the rescue of Lot. What Abraham did pay tithes on was the spoils of war – nothing else! Then, what of the remaining 90%? Abraham gave away 10% of something he wasn’t even going to keep! He gave the rest of the spoils to the king of Sodom. See Genesis 14. If this was the initial example of a universal principle of ‘giving’ (paying to God) to God, then Abraham failed to teach it to his descendents – and it was not to be ‘rediscovered’ for over 400 years.

However, we can deduce that there was not a lapse in the ‘giving principle’ of tithing because it never became an issue during the time between Abraham and Mt. Sinai. Rather, it is just the opposite. Study carefully all of Genesis 26, emphasis on verses 4 – 6. Now, draw your own conclusions.

Bottom line: There are only a couple of reasons to refer to these pre-law tithing scriptures, and neither one is very pretty. (1) They are used in developing a doctrine simply because the term tithe(s, ing) is use in a scripture. Context is destroyed in the process. (2) The only way to support/finance a ministry that should be allowed to fail is kept ‘functioning’ through threats/intimidation and induced feelings of guilt (bully pulpit). What we need to remember is that where God has set His seal and blessings, it will endure. Men, however, can subvert any ministry to their own gain (power, money, influence, etc.). In that case, if correction cannot be accomplished, turn it over to Satan and be done with it.

Epilogue.

I visited one congregation where the pastor stood, preached on tithing and proclaimed to the congregation that, “If you would all pay your tithes, I wouldn’t have to work!” Within a year the pastor was gone, the church disbanded and the building sold.

Is there anything wrong with tithing? Of course not, not when tithing is an act of a free will, and not under compulsion, as a legal debt, because of threats, or as a spiritual mandate. If one desires to offer to the work of the church (the body of Christ) any given amount of money, talent, goods or services, then give it freely and with joy. In any case, please keep your biblical giving priorities straight. Don’t give away your family food and rent money, your family medical expense money, etc, to pay for a church building (you can exist and worship without it) or its light bill (wait until next month, if you have to).

I was in one church of about 45 adults, where it took over $8,000 per month to keep its doors open. The majority of the members were well over 60 (average age 65+), on fixed incomes of less than $12,000 per year, and in failing health. Only a few members had a substantial income, and they gave liberally. Even so, the bulk of the monthly church income came from the elderly, the widows, and the infirm. Compared with Matthew 25:32-40, Mark 12:40, and 1 Timothy 5. In many congregations, we have elevated the needs of a building, or even one man, above the needs of the people, even the strangers among us. Does anyone else see a problem with this picture?

Sam
09-04-2010, 11:47 AM
Wow very good points. I wish this was preached in our churches. Where is the faith of the church that God will bless them without recieving tithes? I was always taught that I would go to hell for not paying tithes as thiefs dont go to heaven so this topic is very sensitive to me. I am glad that the Lord opened my eyes to the truth which is to give from my heart and not be compelled or forced to give a mandate. Thank You again.

In preaching tithing we hear that Jesus said we "ought to pay tithes" based on Matthew 23:23 without an honest look at the people to whom He said it and which covenant it was under. He said it to Pharisees who were under the old covenant.

Malachi 3:8 is preached on about "robbing God" by failing to tithe. Again, this is not to the church. It was to the Israelites who were failing to properly distribute food to the poor.

And of course Malachi 3:8 calls tithing "robbing" God so anyone under the new covenant living in 2010 AD who does not give 10 percent of his salary to the local church is a "robber" and of course thieves and robbers are not going to Heaven.

CAD/JPY
09-04-2010, 01:09 PM
I really appreciate this thread, as this has also been something I have been sorting out in my mind.... especially when I started making significantly less money than I had historically. Giving that 10% and going into debt seemed to have some scripture at odds with one another. Thanks to all the great posts on this topic.

A big factor on the "necessity of paying tithes" is the drive to have big church buildings, or to even own a church. It blows me away, that churches will take out these huge mortgages... almost as if it is a faith thing. "I've heard from God that we are to have this building, now lets figure out how to get the money to buy it."
Then the church is saddled with debt, huge monthly payments, and of course... they have to keep the tithes and offerings coming in, especially once the passion dies of owning that "new car" church.

So what exactly should a modern day christian practice in respect to giving?

Sam
09-04-2010, 01:48 PM
...
So what exactly should a modern day christian practice in respect to giving?

You have to do what you think is best for you and your family.

There are two extremes, both of which can be right for some and not for others.

We can give the first cake to the man of God like the widow in 1 Kings 17:8-16. Here a widow only had enough meal to make bread for her and her son but the prophet demanded she make him a loaf first. When she exhausted her supply to put God first, He multiplied her meal and it lasted as long as she needed it.

The second would be a combination of 1 Timothy 5:8 and Mark 7:9-13. Paul told Timothy that if a person did not provide for his family he had denied the faith and was worse than an infidel. In the Mark passage Jesus told them that they were disobeying God's laws by keeping their tradition. One of the examples was neglecting the care of their families because they would have to take money that was designated as "God's money" to do it.

So, we can take money which would be used for care and feeding of our children or owed to creditors and give it to the church and trust God to multiply what's left, or write checks to the church when there is not enough money in our checking and trust God to put enough in there to cover the check when it clears. That's option one and some would call that seeking first the kingdom according to Matthew 6:33.

Or, we can make sure our kids are fed and clothed and the utilities are paid and there is a roof over their heads and let the money designated for "church" move down the priority list.