Prophecy Accountability Pt 2

[Maximilian]

Keep track records of prophets?

Men who are introduced with accolades that include "healed thousands of deaf and lame, witnessed people raised from the dead.." These are quite fantastic claims, that though possible by the Spirit, often cause some to yield authority to men who claim these gifts. Should we list the people who were healed for the glory of God? Show their stories? Explain why they qualify as healings?

Also, those who prophesy, should we track their accuracy? Although I speak TIC (because I believe such a system would only yield to cynicism), does anyone ever wonder about that?

If God told a man he'd be wealthy, a church they would "pay off their debt in x amount of years," a woman she'd have a child in the next year, a couple their son would be healed... shouldn't we expect God to be true?

Some more musings about a subject that has been tossed around many times on AFF.

[Hoovie]

Indeed - this is a good idea. Names and addresses with doctors reports and evidence of treatments received or not received.

[A.W. Bowman]

Go for it kid!

It is way past time that self-proclaimed spiritual leaders (or those so identified by a group of men who chartered yet another religious association) were held accountable to both the body of Christ and to the Spirit of God - according to biblical standards of 'performance in office'

.

[Maximilian]

HAS, The Prophetic Watchdog Group

Hoovie, it could only be a good thing. Actual, documented miracles would carry more credibility to an increasingly skeptical world. God would get the glory. However, maybe we'd have to define "miracle." A doctor successfully treating a cancer patience who has undergone 6-weeks of Chemotherapy may be an example of God "watching over" and "keeping us," but it doesn't follow the model of Biblical Miracles, which were instantaneous and without ambiguity.

[pelathais]

That's one of the cardinal sins of Pentecost, I'm afraid. It always has been. You're not supposed to pay attention to what's being said let alone keep track of it.

Just go back to the "prophets" who declared Agnes Ozman "spoke in the Chinese language for over two hours" on New Year's Eve, 1900.

oops.

[Sam]

19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

In the NLT it says:
19 Do not stifle the Holy Spirit. 20 Do not scoff at prophecies, 21 but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good. 22 Stay away from every kind of evil.

In the Amplified Bible that is expanded as:
19 Do not quench (suppress or subdue) the [Holy] Spirit;
20 Do not spurn the gifts and utterances of the prophets [do not depreciate prophetic revelations nor despise inspired instruction or exhortation or warning].
21 But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.
22 Abstain from evil [shrink from it and keep aloof from it] in whatever form or whatever kind it may be.

[Cindy]

Since God is the final authority, I think he knows true prophets and miracles. Are saints to hold each other accountable? And who would be responsible for the accounting? A committee?

[rgcraig]

The Bible recorded the accounts back then - - so it can't be wrong to record them.

[Cindy]

The Bible recorded the accounts back then - - so it can't be wrong to record them.

Yes, but you have to trust someone to be accurate. And we all know doctors make mistakes, too. And with some of these guys claiming thousands of miracles, it would be hard to keep track of.

[Maximilian]

Since God is the final authority, I think he knows true prophets and miracles. Are saints to hold each other accountable? And who would be responsible for the accounting? A committee?

So the question is... do we assume all who claim authority, in fact, have authority to speak for God? All that say "Thus saith the LORD" can't be questioned?

1 Corinthians 14 was written with this in mind. Including the idea that not more than one person should prophesy at a time, and each prophecy should then be tested by two or three elders before being spoken to the congregation.

In the thread Prophetic Accountability (Part 1), there are various scriptures that showed the accountability these prophets in the OT had. Their errant speaking for God earned them a permanent eviction from being able to speak for God in an official role, and in some cases, death.

So the committee would be elders to that congregation.

Of course, there is no spiritual discerning if one claims a miracle. It either is or it isn't. There's not discerning if one foretells an event that never happens. It either is or it isn't.

Let the spiritual judge...

[Maximilian]

Yes, but you have to trust someone to be accurate. And we all know doctors make mistakes, too. And with some of these guys claiming thousands of miracles, it would be hard to keep track of.

I didn't realize prophecy was to be a "profession," nor one that could be compared to a person practicing medicine. I was under the impression that it was a spiritual event where God was speaking to the edification of the Body.

If these guys are saying so many prophecies and claiming so many miracles that it's hard to keep track of, perhaps that's another reason why this discussion is important.

The miracles in scripture always were for significant reasons -- validating the ministry of Jesus, the Apostles and Early Church or God intervening in a personal way to a unique situation.

[Maximilian]

19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

In the NLT it says:
19 Do not stifle the Holy Spirit. 20 Do not scoff at prophecies, 21 but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good. 22 Stay away from every kind of evil.

In the Amplified Bible that is expanded as:
19 Do not quench (suppress or subdue) the [Holy] Spirit;
20 Do not spurn the gifts and utterances of the prophets [do not depreciate prophetic revelations nor despise inspired instruction or exhortation or warning].
21 But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.
22 Abstain from evil [shrink from it and keep aloof from it] in whatever form or whatever kind it may be.

So don't scoff prophecy, but test it. Which is exactly what we are talking about.

In The Message:
Don't suppress the Spirit, and don't stifle those who have a word from the Master. On the other hand, don't be gullible. Check out everything, and keep only what's good. Throw out anything tainted with evil.

[Maximilian]

I did a search before this thread and found this: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=27900&highlight=prophetic+accountability

This is why I labeled my thread Part 2, so I didn't hijack anyone else's. The one contradiction I'd have with what Jeffrey seems to have expressed, is that there are clearly people in the Bible (NT church) called "prophets." Jeffrey's attitude toward the prophetic as available to all and not a position as much as a role, however, I think are mostly accurate.

[Cindy]

So the question is... do we assume all who claim authority, in fact, have authority to speak for God? All that say "Thus saith the LORD" can't be questioned?

1 Corinthians 14 was written with this in mind. Including the idea that not more than one person should prophesy at a time, and each prophecy should then be tested by two or three elders before being spoken to the congregation.

In the thread Prophetic Accountability (Part 1), there are various scriptures that showed the accountability these prophets in the OT had. Their errant speaking for God earned them a permanent eviction from being able to speak for God in an official role, and in some cases, death.

So the committee would be elders to that congregation.

Of course, there is no spiritual discerning if one claims a miracle. It either is or it isn't. There's not discerning if one foretells an event that never happens. It either is or it isn't.

Let the spiritual judge...



I am not against accountability at all. I just wonder who is going to judge the truth and keep the records. Because I think there are a lot of healings that aren't miracles, just as there are true miracles we may never know about.

[Sam]

So don't scoff prophecy, but test it. Which is exactly what we are talking about.

In The Message:
Don't suppress the Spirit, and don't stifle those who have a word from the Master. On the other hand, don't be gullible. Check out everything, and keep only what's good. Throw out anything tainted with evil.

I like that one too...

if...we are allowed to like anything in any version but the KJV...
:grampa

[Cindy]

I did a search before this thread and found this: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=27900&highlight=prophetic+accountability

This is why I labeled my thread Part 2, so I didn't hijack anyone else's. The one contradiction I'd have with what Jeffrey seems to have expressed, is that there are clearly people in the Bible (NT church) called "prophets." Jeffrey's attitude toward the prophetic as available to all and not a position as much as a role, however, I think are mostly accurate.

Prophecy being one of the gifts of the Spirit?

[Maximilian]

I am not against accountability at all. I just wonder who is going to judge the truth and keep the records. Because I think there are a lot of healings that aren't miracles, just as there are true miracles we may never know about.

Good question. I suppose I suggested a record tracker in jest and with tongue-in-cheek.

When you said "a lot of healings are not miracles" -- what do you mean?

Also, don't you think God's character when he performs miracles is to get attention and glory? He loves showing off :)

[Maximilian]

Prophecy being one of the gifts of the Spirit?

I'm not sure what your question is.

[Cindy]

I didn't realize prophecy was to be a "profession," nor one that could be compared to a person practicing medicine. I was under the impression that it was a spiritual event where God was speaking to the edification of the Body.

If these guys are saying so many prophecies and claiming so many miracles that it's hard to keep track of, perhaps that's another reason why this discussion is important.

The miracles in scripture always were for significant reasons -- validating the ministry of Jesus, the Apostles and Early Church or God intervening in a personal way to a unique situation.

I agree, just because someone says it doesn't make it true. Man of God or not, not that they might be lying, but just that it is not a genuine miracle.

[Cindy]

I'm not sure what your question is.

A gift of the Spirit available to all, not just a select few.

[Cindy]

Good question. I suppose I suggested a record tracker in jest and with tongue-in-cheek.

When you said "a lot of healings are not miracles" -- what do you mean?

Also, don't you think God's character when he performs miracles is to get attention and glory? He loves showing off :)

I think sometimes the body heals itself. And some medical care heals. To me a miracle is something that is supernatural. I had the mumps when I was little, no medical intervention, got prayed for, the swelling instantly went down. Miracle? I just knew I was healed. I had epilepsy, no medical intervention at all, hands laid on, I was healed. Miracle? I was a child of faith, for I knew no other way. I was taken to the hospital in emergencies, however. And to God goes all the glory!!!


Oh sure He does. Because he wants all to know that He is God!!

[Maximilian]

A gift of the Spirit available to all, not just a select few.

Yes. Paul encouraged EVERYONE to prophesy. 1 Cor 14

But there still remains an unavoidable distinction between those who prophesied and a prophet. I don't understand it all. But there are those who are specifically refered to as a "prophet" in the NT Churches. I'd prefer those didn't exist to be honest :) But it's God's Church, not mine. It would seem these Moses-sized mediators in church governmental structure are no more, but rather brothers and sisters who together edify one another and worship God. However, there are still particular ministries where some are given to: prophesy, teaching, preaching, etc...

[Sam]

There are a couple of ways churches try to control this.

At the Vineyard Church where I used to go, if anyone felt like they had a "word from the Lord" it was to be written out and submitted to a team and evaluated. It could then be distributed.


However, in small group settings at that church and at the altar after services members of the prayer team would be allowed to give "words." Also, on a regular basis we would have a service where a dozen or so teams of 2 or 3 people would be stationed around the auditorium and anyone could come up to them, receive communion and prayer from the team. Prophetic words were regularly given by the teams to those who had come for prayer.

I heard of one church in Colorado that handles prophetic words this way. If someone feels like they have a word for the congregation, they go to the platform, sit down next to the pastor and tell him what they have. Then, based on his assessment of the word they may give it publicly or not.

I was in one large church a couple of years ago in the Greater Cincinnati area. People from several churches had gathered for a meeting. During the worship service, the pastor's wife stood up and announced, "Sis. So and so feels like she has a word from the Lord." Then the woman gave a message in tongues and interpretation.

[Maximilian]

I think sometimes the body heals itself. And some medical care heals. To me a miracle is something that is supernatural. I had the mumps when I was little, no medical intervention, got prayed for, the swelling instantly went down. Miracle? I just knew I was healed. I had epilepsy, no medical intervention at all, hands laid on, I was healed. Miracle? I was a child of faith, for I knew no other way. I was taken to the hospital in emergencies, however. And to God goes all the glory!!!


Oh sure He does. Because he wants all to know that He is God!!

Did your mumps go down right away or within a few hours?

When you were healed of epilepsy, was it instantaneous? Did you just no longer experience seizures ever again?

Also, Epilepsy is more of a syndrome than a disease. A child can get them when they are young but never experience them as an adult. In fact, epilepsy is more common in people over 65 or in younger children.

[Sam]

I know of one large church in this area where no speaking with tongues or prophecy was allowed in the weekend public service. All of that was confined to prayer meetings and small groups. This is a Methodist Church.

[Cindy]

Yes. Paul encouraged EVERYONE to prophesy. 1 Cor 14

But there still remains an unavoidable distinction between those who prophesied and a prophet. I don't understand it all. But there are those who are specifically refered to as a "prophet" in the NT Churches. I'd prefer those didn't exist to be honest :) But it's God's Church, not mine. It would seem these Moses-sized mediators in church governmental structure are no more, but rather brothers and sisters who together edify one another and worship God. However, there are still particular ministries where some are given to: prophesy, teaching, preaching, etc...

I am trying to think back on all the years of seeing and hearing so many things. Mostly evangelists calling someone out and "speaking a word" over them. As for as events being foretold, I don't remember any. I do however remember seeing a demon cast out. That one is hard to forget. I can't really describe the form it took as it went around the building, before going out the door.

[Cindy]

Did your mumps go down right away or within a few hours?

When you were healed of epilepsy, was it instantaneous? Did you just no longer experience seizures ever again?

Also, Epilepsy is more of a syndrome than a disease. A child can get them when they are young but never experience them as an adult. In fact, epilepsy is more common in people over 65 or in younger children.

The swelling instantly went down. There were a few others in our church that had them. I never had seizures again. I have been told some outgrow epilepsy.

[Sam]

We may all prophesy.

One who prophesies speaks to others for
edification (building up)
exhortation (stirring up)
comfort (cheering up or lifting up)
according to the way I understand 1 Corinthians 12:3
it is usually in the language understood by the person or it may be by tongues and interpretation.

I think that there is a lot of prophecy like this that happens but we don't recognize it because it is not in a loud voice with KJV English, spoken rapidly, and punctuated with several "yea verily" and "thus saith the Lord." I think it can be a phone call, a letter, a card, a good handshake or hug and an encouraging word.

[Cindy]

We may all prophesy.

One who prophesies speaks to others for
edification (building up)
exhortation (stirring up)
comfort (cheering up or lifting up)
according to the way I understand 1 Corinthians 12:3
it is usually in the language understood by the person or it may be by tongues and interpretation.

I think that there is a lot of prophecy like this that happens but we don't recognize it because it is not in a loud voice with KJV English, spoken rapidly, and punctuated with several "yea verily" and "thus saith the Lord." I think it can be a phone call, a letter, a card, a good handshake or hug and an encouraging word.

:thumbsup

[Cindy]

Sometimes I wonder what a CT scan of my brain would look like.

[rgcraig]

Sometimes I wonder what a CT scan of my brain would look like.

Oh no - - Timmy will jump on this!

[Sam]

Sometimes I wonder what a CT scan of my brain would look like.

Maybe it would be like the person who testified
"They did an x ray of my head and found nothing."

:ursofunny

[Cindy]

Maybe it would be like the person who testified
"They did an x ray of my head and found nothing."

:ursofunny

:ursofunny :ursofunny

[Cindy]

Oh no - - Timmy will jump on this!

I would post the results. :lol

Love the new profile pic. :) That kid cannot take a bad picture!!!

[Maximilian]

The swelling instantly went down. There were a few others in our church that had them. I never had seizures again. I have been told some outgrow epilepsy.

How old were you when that happened? (the epilespy)

The mumps instantly, as in soon after or during prayer, the mumps were back to normal?

[Maximilian]

Sometimes I wonder what a CT scan of my brain would look like.

A BEFORE and AFTER would be incredible.

The miracles of Jesus:

A blind man seeing instantly.
A deaf man hearing right away.
A man crippled from birth dancing and leaping.
A dead man fully restored.
A crazy man given a right mind.
A woman with "bleeding issues" never to experience that again -- (the greater miracle sometimes seems to be Jesus "feeling" her touch)
A leper instantly healed. Leprosy gone. Skin fully restored.

[rgcraig]

I would post the results. :lol

Love the new profile pic. :) That kid cannot take a bad picture!!!

Thanks!

[Cindy]

How old were you when that happened? (the epilespy)

The mumps instantly, as in soon after or during prayer, the mumps were back to normal?

I was 8 or 9 when I first started having seizures. I was healed within a couple of years.

With the mumps, our pastor laid his hands on me and prayed, when he took his hands away there was no swelling.

There were other healings in our church back then, but those are not mine to tell.

[Cindy]

A BEFORE and AFTER would be incredible.

The miracles of Jesus:

A blind man seeing instantly.
A deaf man hearing right away.
A man crippled from birth dancing and leaping.
A dead man fully restored.
A crazy man given a right mind.
A woman with "bleeding issues" never to experience that again -- (the greater miracle sometimes seems to be Jesus "feeling" her touch)
A leper instantly healed. Leprosy gone. Skin fully restored.

:thumbsup

[Maximilian]

I was 8 or 9 when I first started having seizures. I was healed within a couple of years.

With the mumps, our pastor laid his hands on me and prayed, when he took his hands away there was no swelling.

There were other healings in our church back then, but those are not mine to tell.

:thumbsup Praise God.

(the mumps' swelling was down, but the mumps were still there? i don't know much about mumps, so just curious)

[Cindy]

A BEFORE and AFTER would be incredible.

The miracles of Jesus:

A blind man seeing instantly.
A deaf man hearing right away.
A man crippled from birth dancing and leaping.
A dead man fully restored.
A crazy man given a right mind.
A woman with "bleeding issues" never to experience that again -- (the greater miracle sometimes seems to be Jesus "feeling" her touch)
A leper instantly healed. Leprosy gone. Skin fully restored.

Yes, I wonder if they would be able to tell if I ever had seizures by looking at my brain.

I agree about the woman touching the hem of His garment, and Him feeling the healing virtue flow from Him.

[Cindy]

How old were you when that happened? (the epilespy)

The mumps instantly, as in soon after or during prayer, the mumps were back to normal?

I actually had a seizure at church, Sis. Willie Johnson was holding a revival at our church. She and others laid hands on me and prayed. I never had another.

[Cindy]

I would like to hear about people in third world countries, with less advanced or no health care.

[Maximilian]

I actually had a seizure at church, Sis. Willie Johnson was holding a revival at our church. She and others laid hands on me and prayed. I never had another.

How old were you when that happened and how old are you now?

[Maximilian]

I would like to hear about people in third world countries, with less advanced or no health care.

Yes, me too.

[Cindy]

How old were you when that happened and how old are you now?

I was 10 or 11 when I was healed from epilepsy. The mumps I was younger. I am now 57.

[Cindy]

Was epilepsy or seizures considered demon possession or mental illness a long time ago?

[Maximilian]

Was epilepsy or seizures considered demon possession or mental illness a long time ago?

Let's just put it this way, I'd hate to be an epileptic during the Salem Witch Trials.

Your age when you were healed fits the medical profession statistics that epileptic seizures are most common as a young child and over the age of 65. In between not so much.

[Cindy]

Let's just put it this way, I'd hate to be an epileptic during the Salem Witch Trials.

Your age when you were healed fits the medical profession statistics that epileptic seizures are most common as a young child and over the age of 65. In between not so much.

Yes, I did find out some information when I was grown. I don't think I ever had what they call grand mal seizures.