View Full Version : Misssionaries With God Complexes
"OH, America that is drunk on pleasures, come out of the castle and look on the millions who perish without ever having a chance...
Can we really live in our little worlds and sing Oh, how I love Jesus when our actions prove otherwise?"
This was posted by a missionary, on Facebook, yesterday. After reading this post, and several others she created, I began to seethe. This person was attacking my country, my giving, and my love for souls, in order to raise money for her missions work. It bothered me that she was using Facebook as the vehicle to raise that money. It bothered me that she was using guilt and insults to try to motivate "unmotivated" American Christians.
"only a missionary understands..."
This is what really got to me. After several people expressed outrage at her careless words, she began to post about all of the hardships she had endured, as if a missionary is the only person in the world who suffers hardship. Later, she began to delete the responses of her Facebook friends as they pointed just how abusive her posts were.
Her general attitude led me to remove her from my friends list.
The American church gives plenty. Most foreign missions works would collapse without the gifts of hard-working American men and women who sacrifice to further the work of God.
Americans are hurting right now. Many churches struggle to keep the doors open. Most pastors work a secular job just to get by. This is a new economic environment, and the notion that we are drunk on wealth is antiquated. Most American men and women, including pastors, must work to live. Some of us are working two and three jobs to provide for our families.
Believe me, the pastors I know would love to enjoy the income stream that missionaries receive. Not only do missionaries receive a salary from the American church, pretty much the entire work is funded by the American church.
So please, stop with the God complex. Stop with the guilt trips and insults. It's awfully cold out here, and your whining is drowning out the sound of my kids crying for food.
In our city, the Lutheran church is the second largest religious body. They have been here for 150 years. They have a congregation of well over 500.
They are struggling to pay their power bill. Most of the families that attend are out of work because the steel mill closed.
DividedThigh
09-15-2010, 09:29 AM
it happens, i knew a missionary that thought all americans were fat and lazy, till he needed them to support him, oops, dt
Cindy
09-15-2010, 10:03 AM
Yeah, lets compare dying souls, and judge each other. That will surely help the cause of Christians.
coadie
09-15-2010, 10:07 AM
Quote:
"OH, America that is drunk on pleasures, come out of the castle and look on the millions who perish without ever having a chance...
Can we really live in our little worlds and sing Oh, how I love Jesus when our actions prove otherwise?"
This is very true. America spends much more on beer than missions.
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 10:11 AM
I posted...
Cindy
09-15-2010, 10:18 AM
I posted...
I figured that. Love y'all, so thankful for you and your family, and other missionaries. And pastors, preachers, and saints that carry the gospel to lost souls.
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 10:39 AM
several people did not post in anger only two...
This is very true. America spends much more on beer than missions.
When we factor how much Americans have given charitably to non for profits that often do "missionary" work ..
The scale tips over
In 2007, Americans donated over 295 billion dollars
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-25-charitable_N.htm
Beers sales that year ... about 213 million
http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-brewing/US_beer_industry/beer_sales.htm
berkeley
09-15-2010, 10:49 AM
sad that someone would start a thread like this.
coadie
09-15-2010, 10:56 AM
When we factor how much Americans have given charitably to non for profits that often do "missionary" work ..
The scale tips over
In 2007, Americans donated over 295 billion dollars
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-25-charitable_N.htm
Beers sales that year ... about 213 million
http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-brewing/US_beer_industry/beer_sales.htm
The biggest chunk of the donations, $96.82 billion or 32.8%, went to religious organizations. The second largest slice, $40.98 billion or 13.9%, went to education, including gifts to colleges, universities and libraries.
Small part is sent to missions? so sad.
rgcraig
09-15-2010, 11:02 AM
Very sad.
To many of these countries, just living in the US seems to them we are rich. Is there needs in the US, of course, but as a whole, Americans are blessed.
A friend I work with just returned from Peru - a very poor nation. It was a vacation not a missions trip. They visited a school while they were there and gave $7 US to provide the children a "treat" that day. Each child was giving a small piece of cheese and crackers and he said they were so excited.
He stood and just cried to witness that.
Are there needs in the US - - yes, of course and we do need to take care of our own too. But, I wasn't offended at all by what was said - - these countries live in huts with dirt floors - they don't have government programs helping them provide school lunches, provide groceries, etc.
I think some were a little hyper sensitive to the heart of what was being spoken.
Baron1710
09-15-2010, 11:04 AM
When we factor how much Americans have given charitably to non for profits that often do "missionary" work ..
The scale tips over
In 2007, Americans donated over 295 billion dollars
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-25-charitable_N.htm
Beers sales that year ... about 213 million
http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-brewing/US_beer_industry/beer_sales.htm
So we are putting the beer companies out of business by speding way more on non-profits than on beer?
Disgraceful.
I wonder if the wine makers were upset when Jesus turned the water into wine?
berkeley
09-15-2010, 11:05 AM
great post Renda
Maximilian
09-15-2010, 11:33 AM
So we are putting the beer companies out of business by speding way more on non-profits than on beer?
Disgraceful.
I wonder if the wine makers were upset when Jesus turned the water into wine?
Or of they'd consider that "missions" :)
missourimary
09-15-2010, 11:42 AM
I went to Brazil for a few weeks in 1997. I didn't meet the Alvears, but I was very impressed with the work in Manaus that I witnessed. Did everything make sense to me? Absolutely not-but then again, I hadn't lived there for 30 years like the missionaries I visited had. I couldn't even speak the language. Nothing seemed unsensible to me, either, though.
Missions has been rather glorified in some American churches. We see the missionaries fly in, nice suit, nice dress, going out to eat at nice restaurants... we see pictures of their homes and hear about the church that donated a brand new vehicle to them. I'm not sure any of us-even me, even after having lived with missionaries for a few weeks-really has any concept what the daily life of a missionary is like. That's not a sob story either. Here's some of what I saw during my trip though:
The missionaries had several people who worked for them in their home. (but I overheard later that they had been hired to take care of us for the time we were there, since we couldn't operate the wringer washer and didn't have time to cook...) I saw those workers debone the chicken that they put in our soup... and ask permission to take the bones home to put in soup for their own families.
I watched people brush their teeth in water straight out of the Amazon, and knew that the facilities in the missionaries' home had been installed specially so the water to the house-pumped into most homes without proper purification-wouldn't make the Americans who visited sick.
They had air conditioning for the comfort of the Americans who visited too. Actually, the missionary slept out in the front room in a hammock while we were there because he couldn't stand the air conditioning-he was too used to not having it.
The vehicles the missionaries drove us in weren't the nice Land Rovers and such that I'd seen in missionary pictures. They were rattly, dented vehicles they could drive through the bumpy streets. If they had nice vehicles from mothers memorial or whatever, they were in service at some of the other works-the missionaries weren't driving them, certainly.
I went back to America with a different concept of what it might mean to support missions, what missionaries face in their countries, and the value of an American dollar. Not everyone in America has it easy. But not every missionary does either.
If missions work were easy and lucrative, there would be a lot more missionaries.
:heart
*I don't know Sis Alvear, I am not on her FB, and I'm not trying to guilt trip or guild anything. I just think the original post is very sad, and at least somewhat misinformed.
Very sad.
To many of these countries, just living in the US seems to them we are rich. Is there needs in the US, of course, but as a whole, Americans are blessed.
A friend I work with just returned from Peru - a very poor nation. It was a vacation not a missions trip. They visited a school while they were there and gave $7 US to provide the children a "treat" that day. Each child was giving a small piece of cheese and crackers and he said they were so excited.
He stood and just cried to witness that.
Are there needs in the US - - yes, of course and we do need to take care of our own too. But, I wasn't offended at all by what was said - - these countries live in huts with dirt floors - they don't have government programs helping them provide school lunches, provide groceries, etc.
I think some were a little hyper sensitive to the heart of what was being spoken.
Those are great points, Renda.
My dissatisfaction has nothing to do with the fact that there truly is a need for missions giving. It has more to do with the fact that a missionary insulted one of the most giving nations in the world and all of the hard-working Apostolics in it. She insulted the very nation most responsible for her continued ability to preach in Brazil.
No one is holding a gun to her head. A missionary becomes a missionary by choice. The martyr shtick wears thin, especially when it is slathered with excessive amounts of gooey guilt.
The light of American Christianity was once a bonfire. It has now faded to a smoldering flicker. America is in desperate need of evangelism, or she will soon become as dark as Europe.
Praxeas
09-15-2010, 12:21 PM
As far as Im concerned, that missionary is right about American in general, but I doubt it was aimed at Owl.
As far as Im concerned, compared to my relative life here in America many missionaries DO have a harder life and needs that we here in America are in a good position to provide for. I doubt that missionary was aiming their comments at all Americans including those that have recently lost jobs and such.
Perhaps the way the missionary posted rubbed a few the wrong way. Perhaps the missionary just went about it the wrong way. Perhaps even that missionary was distressed where they are at and under their present circumstances too. I don't know.
But I've talked to enough missionaries to know that their mission field are often in third world nations and not a Disneyland vacation. They are far away from home, family and friends and no unlimited credit card.
I could not read the posting for myself but maybe this person needs more patience and understanding :-)
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 12:31 PM
I am sorry that I offended 2 AFF posters that are on my friends lists...that was not intended at all...I was speaking in general terms. Not one person at all in mind...
I remember when one of my boys was little we went to a church to preach and the boy saw a dog house, riding lawn mower, a barn for the horses...He said mother, these people are so rich....I never could convence him they were not rich...
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 12:34 PM
Those are great points, Renda.
My dissatisfaction has nothing to do with the fact that there truly is a need for missions giving. It has more to do with the fact that a missionary insulted one of the most giving nations in the world and all of the hard-working Apostolics in it. She insulted the very nation most responsible for her continued ability to preach in Brazil.
No one is holding a gun to her head. A missionary becomes a missionary by choice. The martyr shtick wears thin, especially when it is slathered with excessive amounts of gooey guilt.
The light of American Christianity was once a bonfire. It has now faded to a smoldering flicker. America is in desperate need of evangelism, or she will soon become as dark as Europe.
Will you forgive me?
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 12:34 PM
I did not mean it like it was taken but anyway...
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 12:36 PM
sOMETIMES IT IS HARD TO EXPRESS OUR INNER FEELINGS AND NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS WOULD i INTENTIONALLY INSULT SOMEONE... SOMETIMES I AM OVERWHEMLMED BY THE NEEDS ON THE FIELD....
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 12:39 PM
YOU MIGHT WANT TO READ SOME ARTICLES not BY ME ...
Shame on us
Christians in America know very little about serious giving | Joel Belz
ALARM BELLS ARE RINGING. EVER MORE LOUDLY and more ominously throughout the nonprofit world, warning buzzers are sounding a grim caution: Charitable giving is in a perilous dip.
The worst reports are coming from secular situations. In a report on major foundations, The Wall Street Journal notes that several have cut back their giving by 50 percent. "I haven't been hit as badly as the World Trade Center," billionaire Ted Turner told the Journal, "but there's a little smoke coming out of my ears." With his stock in AOL Time Warner Inc. off by 75 percent over the last year, he decided to spread one $250 million charitable pledge to seven years instead of just five.
And some corporations that for years have matched the charitable gifts of their employees have now ended that practice. (WORLD MAG.)
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 12:45 PM
If missions is a priority for God, how is it reflected in local churches? A George Barna survey of senior Protestant pastors taken in December 2004 found that only 15% had missions as any one of their top three priorities for the coming year3. One-tenth of one percent (ten cents per hundred dollars) of all Christian income went to global foreign missions, estimates David Barrett in his annual “Status of Global Mission” report for 2005. Seven-tenths of 1% went to churches and another 1.2% went to parachurch organizations globally4. Fundamentally the issue is stinginess among Christians (at least nominal ones)—churches being composed of Christians—and even more fundamentally, the issue is failing to avail ourselves of the grace of God5.
In twenty-nine American denominations, benevolence giving as a part of total church income declined from 21% in 1968 to 15% in 20026. Giving to “benevolences” is defined as funds given to the local church for local, national and international missions, as well as for denominational support. Benevolence giving declined from .66% of personal disposable income to .38% of disposable income in that same time span, remembering again that probably not more than half of even this tiny income did not go to global missions. In real numbers, this means an average of $101.00 per member was designated in those denominations for all church benevolences in 2002. This does not include giving directly to missions, apart from giving through the church, but overall, giving to missions was minimal. Denominations vary considerably in the amount given per member for missions. Giving by Christian Evangelicals is considerably higher (14% of them tithe, compared to 5% of the general population7), but they represent only 7% of the US population8.
http://www.rmni.org/financial-ministry/giving/giving-and-missions.html
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 12:47 PM
Those are great points, Renda.
My dissatisfaction has nothing to do with the fact that there truly is a need for missions giving. It has more to do with the fact that a missionary insulted one of the most giving nations in the world and all of the hard-working Apostolics in it. She insulted the very nation most responsible for her continued ability to preach in Brazil.
No one is holding a gun to her head. A missionary becomes a missionary by choice. The martyr shtick wears thin, especially when it is slathered with excessive amounts of gooey guilt.
The light of American Christianity was once a bonfire. It has now faded to a smoldering flicker. America is in desperate need of evangelism, or she will soon become as dark as Europe.
Shame on you, Owl.
The truth is, that while Americans DO give huge amounts of money to charitable and mission-oriented causes, we do NOT give as much as we could. Nor do we suffer poverty the way that those in third world countries suffer poverty. When we "give till it hurts", truthfully we are not hurting, and we still have our needs (and our families' needs) met.
The TRUTH is, only those who have sacrificed everything for the sake of the kingdom will understand these sorts of posts. Missionaries definitely endure more hardship and SEE more hardship than your average American Christian. Therefore, I respect what missionaries have to say, assuming that they have more experience with these things than I do.
The TRUTH is, we give to missions and charities, but we most DEFINITELY could be giving more.
The TRUTH is, we give our dollars, because sometimes that alleviates the guilt we feel for not actually DOING anything.
The TRUTH is, if something that was posted bothers you that much, maybe it isn't the speaker's motives you should be analyzing.
The TRUTH is, there's nothing productive in you coming here and maligning a very dear woman, simply because you felt a little guilt when you read her posts. Perhaps you should take that guilt and do something with it.
The TRUTH is, if you get out and start making concerted efforts to evangelize and do outreach, you will be unpleasantly surprised at how FEW American Christians really want to get their hands dirty. (statistically speaking) They might be willing to donate money to your cause--just so they don't have to wash their hands later.
You should be absolutely ashamed of this thread, Owl.
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 12:48 PM
Giving to missions totaled $1.33 billion in 2009, a decline of 1.8 percent, reflecting the economic downturn. Through the denomination's Cooperative Program (CP) and special mission offerings, local churches voluntarily pool funds to support mission efforts in their states, throughout the nation and around the world. For example, Southern Baptists support more than 10,500 missionaries who engage nearly 1,200 people groups throughout North America and around the world.
(southern baptist mag.)
Some other stats available here:
http://library.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=28&page=
Shame on you, Owl.
The truth is, that while Americans DO give huge amounts of money to charitable and mission-oriented causes, we do NOT give as much as we could. Nor do we suffer poverty the way that those in third world countries suffer poverty. When we "give till it hurts", truthfully we are not hurting, and we still have our needs (and our families' needs) met.
The TRUTH is, only those who have sacrificed everything for the sake of the kingdom will understand these sorts of posts. Missionaries definitely endure more hardship and SEE more hardship than your average American Christian. Therefore, I respect what missionaries have to say, assuming that they have more experience with these things than I do.
The TRUTH is, we give to missions and charities, but we most DEFINITELY could be giving more.
The TRUTH is, we give our dollars, because sometimes that alleviates the guilt we feel for not actually DOING anything.
The TRUTH is, if something that was posted bothers you that much, maybe it isn't the speaker's motives you should be analyzing.
The TRUTH is, there's nothing productive in you coming here and maligning a very dear woman, simply because you felt a little guilt when you read her posts. Perhaps you should take that guilt and do something with it.
The TRUTH is, if you get out and start making concerted efforts to evangelize and do outreach, you will be unpleasantly surprised at how FEW American Christians really want to get their hands dirty. (statistically speaking) They might be willing to donate money to your cause--just so they don't have to wash their hands later.
You should be absolutely ashamed of this thread, Owl.
Sister,
The TRUTH is, I have not maligned anyone. I merely exposed the saccharine sweetness that insults and guilts good people into opening up the pocketbooks.
The TRUTH is, I have given my entire adult life to ministry, with little expectation of compensation. Yet I realize that lack and hardship is shared by millions of pastors and missionaries around the world. I don't get on the internet and whine about it incessantly.
The TRUTH is, no one is obligated to give homes and food to foreigners, although that would be nice. Our responsibility is not housing the lost, it's preaching to the lost.
The TRUTH is, your post smacks of judgment and "seer"ism.
Would there be foreign missions without Americans?
Giving to missions totaled $1.33 billion in 2009, a decline of 1.8 percent, reflecting the economic downturn. Through the denomination's Cooperative Program (CP) and special mission offerings, local churches voluntarily pool funds to support mission efforts in their states, throughout the nation and around the world. For example, Southern Baptists support more than 10,500 missionaries who engage nearly 1,200 people groups throughout North America and around the world.
(southern baptist mag.)
Would there be foreign missions without Americans?
No of course not ..
Some of the problem has been overhead costs ... I know that UPCI has been under the microscope for a lot of money being stuck in overhead fees and administrative costs...
It's led to others like I-AM to step in and create other missionary networks ...
More on I-AM led by Jonathon Alvear: http://theapostolicreport.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/ar-interview-with-rev-jonathan-alvear-and-the-i-am-foundation/
Can you imagine how blessed a Home Missionary would feel if he received life time funding like Foreign Missionaries do?
coadie
09-15-2010, 01:16 PM
Would there be foreign missions without Americans?
There have always been missions that didn't originate in America.
coadie
09-15-2010, 01:18 PM
Can you imagine how blessed a Home Missionary would feel if he received life time funding like Foreign Missionaries do?
Don't forget foreign currencies can suffer severe fluctuations and loss of value.
berkeley
09-15-2010, 01:20 PM
OWL really neeeds to REPENT of her bitterness, or fly to a different tree.
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 01:21 PM
Would there be foreign missions without Americans?
Both missions and Christianity originated outside of America. :rolleyes2
If missions is a priority for God, how is it reflected in local churches? A George Barna survey of senior Protestant pastors taken in December 2004 found that only 15% had missions as any one of their top three priorities for the coming year3. One-tenth of one percent (ten cents per hundred dollars) of all Christian income went to global foreign missions, estimates David Barrett in his annual “Status of Global Mission” report for 2005. Seven-tenths of 1% went to churches and another 1.2% went to parachurch organizations globally4. Fundamentally the issue is stinginess among Christians (at least nominal ones)—churches being composed of Christians—and even more fundamentally, the issue is failing to avail ourselves of the grace of God5.
In twenty-nine American denominations, benevolence giving as a part of total church income declined from 21% in 1968 to 15% in 20026. Giving to “benevolences” is defined as funds given to the local church for local, national and international missions, as well as for denominational support. Benevolence giving declined from .66% of personal disposable income to .38% of disposable income in that same time span, remembering again that probably not more than half of even this tiny income did not go to global missions. In real numbers, this means an average of $101.00 per member was designated in those denominations for all church benevolences in 2002. This does not include giving directly to missions, apart from giving through the church, but overall, giving to missions was minimal. Denominations vary considerably in the amount given per member for missions. Giving by Christian Evangelicals is considerably higher (14% of them tithe, compared to 5% of the general population7), but they represent only 7% of the US population8.
http://www.rmni.org/financial-ministry/giving/giving-and-missions.html
Maybe the local church struggles to stay afloat? Maybe they view their own community as a mission field? Maybe they don't trust overseas charities?
Both missions and Christianity originated outside of America. :rolleyes2
True, but if America is so insignificant, why all of the whining about our lack of giving? Why do missionaries come here to deputize? They come here because they know Americans are compassionate and giving.
OWL really neeeds to REPENT of her bitterness, or fly to a different tree.
That's not very nice. Good thing I don't give a hoot.
whoami
09-15-2010, 01:25 PM
. When we "give till it hurts", truthfully we are not hurting, and we still have our needs (and our families' needs) met.
This is the case for most, not all though. Just saying. I don't know Owl or Sis. Alvear, but I do remember a time several years ago when I was working 3 jobs and missing meals and my electricity and gas were turned off in the middle of winter, etc. I walked to the church in my neighborhood one night during this time to attend service and a missionary was there that night and railed at the congregation for not giving more, us rich lazy Americans. I am thankful that I live in a country where I was able to work myself up out of that situation. I realize that many people in third world countries don't have that opportunity. My point is though, the 'truths' you pointed out Mrs. B don't always apply to everyone, and when you're in a bad situation and struggling hard against cold and hunger, the broad brush used by people (usually people with good intentions) hurts.
From everything that I've seen of Sis. Alvear on here she appears to be a very kind lady who's doing a great work. I don't know Owl and don't know what their driving factor was for posting this thread, I just wanted to present another perspective.
rgcraig
09-15-2010, 01:28 PM
Can you imagine how blessed a Home Missionary would feel if he received life time funding like Foreign Missionaries do?
Maybe there's a bit of a personal rub in the response.
My cousin is a UPC foreign missionary and their "funding" is HARD WORK. I think deputation is wrong, wrong, wrong, but that's how it's set up and they are willing to spend their time back at the states going from church to church trying to raise their own funding.
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 01:28 PM
True, but if America is so insignificant, why all of the whining about our lack of giving? Why do missionaries come here to deputize? They come here because they know Americans are compassionate and giving.
First of all, I think it's a crying shame that missionaries have to go church to church begging for money.
Secondly, UPCI missionaries come here to deputize because that's how the organization works. Maybe they have missionaries do that because they know that hearing real stories from real people will encourage people to give more--because otherwise it's easy to turn the cold shoulder and give to local causes. (if you give it all)
I'm not saying that Americans don't give, Owl. Not at all. There are a lot of compassionate, giving people in America. There are also a lot of selfish people--selfish Christians. Which is an oxymoron....
rgcraig
09-15-2010, 01:29 PM
Shame on you, Owl.
The truth is, that while Americans DO give huge amounts of money to charitable and mission-oriented causes, we do NOT give as much as we could. Nor do we suffer poverty the way that those in third world countries suffer poverty. When we "give till it hurts", truthfully we are not hurting, and we still have our needs (and our families' needs) met.
The TRUTH is, only those who have sacrificed everything for the sake of the kingdom will understand these sorts of posts. Missionaries definitely endure more hardship and SEE more hardship than your average American Christian. Therefore, I respect what missionaries have to say, assuming that they have more experience with these things than I do.
The TRUTH is, we give to missions and charities, but we most DEFINITELY could be giving more.
The TRUTH is, we give our dollars, because sometimes that alleviates the guilt we feel for not actually DOING anything.
The TRUTH is, if something that was posted bothers you that much, maybe it isn't the speaker's motives you should be analyzing.
The TRUTH is, there's nothing productive in you coming here and maligning a very dear woman, simply because you felt a little guilt when you read her posts. Perhaps you should take that guilt and do something with it.
The TRUTH is, if you get out and start making concerted efforts to evangelize and do outreach, you will be unpleasantly surprised at how FEW American Christians really want to get their hands dirty. (statistically speaking) They might be willing to donate money to your cause--just so they don't have to wash their hands later.
You should be absolutely ashamed of this thread, Owl.
Couldn't agree more.
This is the case for most, not all though. Just saying. I don't know Owl or Sis. Alvear, but I do remember a time several years ago when I was working 3 jobs and missing meals and my electricity and gas were turned off in the middle of winter, etc. I walked to the church in my neighborhood one night during this time to attend service and a missionary was there that night and railed at the congregation for not giving more, us rich lazy Americans. I am thankful that I live in a country where I was able to work myself up out of that situation. I realize that many people in third world countries don't have that opportunity. My point is though, the 'truths' you pointed out Mrs. B don't always apply to everyone, and when you're in a bad situation and struggling hard against cold and hunger, the broad brush used by people (usually people with good intentions) hurts.
From everything that I've seen of Sis. Alvear on here she appears to be a very kind lady who's doing a great work. I don't know Owl and don't know what their driving factor was for posting this thread, I just wanted to present another perspective.
Thank you.
The insults are tough to swallow when you've already given everything you can give. I think it's wrong to assume that all Americans are greedy and stingy. Some of us have given everything we have.
First of all, I think it's a crying shame that missionaries have to go church to church begging for money.
Secondly, UPCI missionaries come here to deputize because that's how the organization works. Maybe they have missionaries do that because they know that hearing real stories from real people will encourage people to give more--because otherwise it's easy to turn the cold shoulder and give to local causes. (if you give it all)
I'm not saying that Americans don't give, Owl. Not at all. There are a lot of compassionate, giving people in America. There are also a lot of selfish people--selfish Christians. Which is an oxymoron....
I agree with this. However, insulting those churches who do give doesn't help the cause.
Couldn't agree more.
Bless me father, for I have sinned...
rgcraig
09-15-2010, 01:33 PM
Thank you.
The insults are tough to swallow when you've already given everything you can give. I think it's wrong to assume that all Americans are greedy and stingy. Some of us have given everything we have.
See, this is the problem. Yes, you are right - some have. However, when you take a WHOLE country that is poor and compare that to the small percentage you are speaking of, it pales in comparison.
When someone in the US suffers there are programs in place to help them "get through" the tough spots. So, we are still a spoiled and blessed nation.
Your anger is showing.
berkeley
09-15-2010, 01:34 PM
OWL, who are you really? You joined AFF two days ago and today you attack our resident missionary. Me thinks you have another user name. Don't hide in the tree. Spread your wings and fly.
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 01:36 PM
This is the case for most, not all though. Just saying. I don't know Owl or Sis. Alvear, but I do remember a time several years ago when I was working 3 jobs and missing meals and my electricity and gas were turned off in the middle of winter, etc. I walked to the church in my neighborhood one night during this time to attend service and a missionary was there that night and railed at the congregation for not giving more, us rich lazy Americans. I am thankful that I live in a country where I was able to work myself up out of that situation. I realize that many people in third world countries don't have that opportunity. My point is though, the 'truths' you pointed out Mrs. B don't always apply to everyone, and when you're in a bad situation and struggling hard against cold and hunger, the broad brush used by people (usually people with good intentions) hurts.
From everything that I've seen of Sis. Alvear on here she appears to be a very kind lady who's doing a great work. I don't know Owl and don't know what their driving factor was for posting this thread, I just wanted to present another perspective.
whoami, I appreciate your post, and our family has also been faithful in giving when our finances weren't plentiful. I understand hardship. It's just that hardship as defined in America isn't quite the same as hardship in India or Brazil.
It's impossible for me not to minimize with this next statement, so no apologies: There are people all over the world who are cold, starving, and have no transportation. So while I understand that when you are struggling, statements like that can be upsetting, it still is not the NORM for most Americans. In other countries, what you describe is the norm--not the exception.
Statistically speaking, most Americans have never experienced poverty as it is experienced in third world countries, even in what we would consider the most difficult of circumstances.
From a missionary perspective, then, the small amounts that may be doled out may be hard to take, considering the lifestyle differences. It must be appreciated nonetheless, but I can definitely understand the frustration.
coadie
09-15-2010, 01:37 PM
sad that someone would start a thread like this.
They joined this board just for this.
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 01:37 PM
I agree with this. However, insulting those churches who do give doesn't help the cause.
I don't think Sister A was directing her comments to the people and churches who give; do you?
rgcraig
09-15-2010, 01:38 PM
I don't think Sister A was directing her comments to the people and churches who give; do you?
Excellent point.
See, this is the problem. Yes, you are right - some have. However, when you take a WHOLE country that is poor and compare that to the small percentage you are speaking of, it pales in comparison.
When someone in the US suffers there are programs in place to help them "get through" the tough spots. So, we are still a spoiled and blessed nation.
Your anger is showing.
Again, I have already said this isn't about the poor people of Brazil, because everyone agrees there is a real need there. It's about the whining of a missionary who is supported very well by lazy Americans.
Btw, small church pastors and home missionaries don't get any help through the tight spots. If they struggle, we speculate they must not have the favor of God. We get annoyed if American pastors ask for money like this. Especially if its a different need every week, and posted on Facebook.
I don't think Sister A was directing her comments to the people and churches who give; do you?
Her statement was generic and broad brush.
rgcraig
09-15-2010, 01:42 PM
Again, I have already said this isn't about the poor people of Brazil, because everyone agrees there is a real need there. It's about the whining of a missionary who is supported very well by lazy Americans.
Btw, small church pastors and home missionaries don't get any help through the tight spots. If they struggle, we speculate they must not have the favor of God. We get annoyed if American pastors ask for money like this. Especially if its a different need every week, and posted on Facebook.
I beg to differ. There's a Home Missions Dept at WEC too.
And, yes, there are programs to help small church pastors and home missionaries through the tight spots too. But, as Americans sometimes we are too proud to ask for the help (food stamps, etc.).
coadie
09-15-2010, 01:42 PM
Again, I have already said this isn't about the poor people of Brazil, because everyone agrees there is a real need there. It's about the whining of a missionary who is supported very well by lazy Americans.
Btw, small church pastors and home missionaries don't get any help through the tight spots. If they struggle, we speculate they must not have the favor of God. We get annoyed if American pastors ask for money like this. Especially if its a different need every week, and posted on Facebook.
By law, many missionairies can't earn an income in a foreign land. That is often a condition of their visa. Even their family can't earn income.
If a home missions church is 22 people, there is a little time to work.
I beg to differ. There's a Home Missions Dept at WEC too.
And, yes, there are programs to help small church pastors and home missionaries through the tight spots too. But, as Americans sometimes we are too proud to ask for the help (food stamps, etc.).
Renda, there is a HM department but you are muey loco if you think every - or even most - home missionaries receive even one penny. It's not about being too proud to help, it's about zero help available.
Again, if an American pastor got on Facebook or AFF and asked for money all the time posters would ask that they be banned.
By law, many missionairies can't earn an income in a foreign land. That is often a condition of their visa. Even their family can't earn income.
If a home missions church is 22 people, there is a little time to work.
Huh?
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 01:45 PM
Her statement was generic and broad brush.
My Daddy always said that if you throw a rock in a pack of dogs, the one who hollers is the one who got hit. :coffee2
Baron1710
09-15-2010, 01:46 PM
My Daddy always said that if you throw a rock in a pack of dogs, the one who hollers is the one who got hit. :coffee2
Works fine if you trying to find a yelping dog.
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 01:47 PM
Works fine if you trying to find a yelping dog.
I think we've found one. :D
My Daddy always said that if you throw a rock in a pack of dogs, the one who hollers is the one who got hit. :coffee2
Gee, that's original. And, I'm an owl, not a dog. ;)
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 01:48 PM
True, but if America is so insignificant, why all of the whining about our lack of giving? Why do missionaries come here to deputize? They come here because they know Americans are compassionate and giving.
I was never talking about churches who give and if you know me you know that...lol...
I was never talking about churches who give and if you know me you know that...lol...
You didn't specify. Oh well.
I'm just a bitter, yelping dog who should be ashamed of himself.:blah
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 01:52 PM
Her statement was generic and broad brush.
Owl, when preachers speak out against sin, do you assume they are painting every listener as a sinner? Or do you think that those who need to be convicted will be? When my pastor preaches, if I feel convicted, it's because something he brought out from the Word pricked MY heart. If what he's talking about doesn't apply to me, I don't get offended and think he's painting everyone with the same brush. No, he's addressing those who need to hear what is being said, and he is most likely unconcerned with those who are already doing right.
whoami
09-15-2010, 01:52 PM
whoami, I appreciate your post, and our family has also been faithful in giving when our finances weren't plentiful. I understand hardship. It's just that hardship as defined in America isn't quite the same as hardship in India or Brazil.
It's impossible for me not to minimize with this next statement, so no apologies: There are people all over the world who are cold, starving, and have no transportation. So while I understand that when you are struggling, statements like that can be upsetting, it still is not the NORM for most Americans. In other countries, what you describe is the norm--not the exception.
Statistically speaking, most Americans have never experienced poverty as it is experienced in third world countries, even in what we would consider the most difficult of circumstances.
From a missionary perspective, then, the small amounts that may be doled out may be hard to take, considering the lifestyle differences. It must be appreciated nonetheless, but I can definitely understand the frustration.
I understand what you're saying. I have a lot of family on the mission field, some in third world countries and some in Europe. I've seen anger directed at missionaries a lot, and in the past I've felt it myself, so I wanted to try and provide a perspective from that point of view.
Owl, when preachers speak out against sin, do you assume they are painting every listener as a sinner? Or do you think that those who need to be convicted will be? When my pastor preaches, if I feel convicted, it's because something he brought out from the Word pricked MY heart. If what he's talking about doesn't apply to me, I don't get offended and think he's painting everyone with the same brush. No, he's addressing those who need to hear what is being said, and he is most likely unconcerned with those who are already doing right.
In your case, you should definitely think he is speaking to you.:neener
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 01:55 PM
Renda, there is a HM department but you are muey loco if you think every - or even most - home missionaries receive even one penny. It's not about being too proud to help, it's about zero help available.
And that's the fault of the organization--not the missionaries asking for money, too. lol
Again, if an American pastor got on Facebook or AFF and asked for money all the time posters would ask that they be banned.
Really? Are you assuming that the members of the AFF would be selfish, annoyed and unwilling to give? I think you are painting with a broad brush and assuming a lot with this statement.
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 01:56 PM
In your case, you should definitely think he is speaking to you.:neener
When he is, I don't get mad at the messenger. I get mad at myself for being found lacking.
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 01:56 PM
Sister,
The TRUTH is, I have not maligned anyone. I merely exposed the saccharine sweetness that insults and guilts good people into opening up the pocketbooks.
The TRUTH is, I have given my entire adult life to ministry, with little expectation of compensation. Yet I realize that lack and hardship is shared by millions of pastors and missionaries around the world. I don't get on the internet and whine about it incessantly.
The TRUTH is, no one is obligated to give homes and food to foreigners, although that would be nice. Our responsibility is not housing the lost, it's preaching to the lost.
The TRUTH is, your post smacks of judgment and "seer"ism.
I don't think I have ever whinned...give me your name and I will gladly take you off....I often tell of great victories, baptisims, people receiving the Holy Ghost and post hundreds of real life pictures to back up what I post. Yes, it is true we face many difficulties...went 2 years without a car, I do not have retirement or insurance...Raised 11 children plus others that ate at our table...No I am not complainning one bit but my FRIENDS always tell me, sister Alvear, let us know your needs...if you are not my friend please block me...I will consider you my friend anyway...
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 01:58 PM
If I offend the posters here all Renda has to do is ask me to get off...I always publish our newsletter here....sure saves a lot of stamps....
I don't think I have ever whinned...give me your name and I will gladly take you off....I often tell of great victories, baptisims, people receiving the Holy Ghost and post hundreds of real life pictures to back up what I post. Yes, it is true we face many difficulties...went 2 years without a car, I do not have retirement or insurance...Raised 11 children plus others that ate at our table...No I am not complainning one bit but my FRIENDS always tell me, sister Alvear, let us know your needs...if you are not my friend please block me...I will consider you my friend anyway...
Owl's the name, hootin's my game.
And that's the fault of the organization--not the missionaries asking for money, too. lol
Really? Are you assuming that the members of the AFF would be selfish, annoyed and unwilling to give? I think you are painting with a broad brush and assuming a lot with this statement.
You assumed quiet a bit in your "The TRUTH is" post, don't you think?
AFF hates greedy, whiny, preachers.
rgcraig
09-15-2010, 02:01 PM
If I offend the posters here all Renda has to do is ask me to get off...I always publish our newsletter here....sure saves a lot of stamps....
Sis. A,
What I ask of you is to please ignore this thread and this poster. You had ever right to post whatever you want on FB or AFF.
If they are offended then they need to stop reading your posts. It's their issue - not yours.
coadie
09-15-2010, 02:06 PM
Sis. A,
What I ask of you is to please ignore this thread and this poster. You had ever right to post whatever you want on FB or AFF.
If they are offended then they need to stop reading your posts. It's their issue - not yours.
God bless the Missionaries. They even have more dangerous criminal risks than most in America. (except me when I drive into the hood at night to do home bible studies and hear gunfire)
whoami
09-15-2010, 02:08 PM
If I offend the posters here all Renda has to do is ask me to get off...I always publish our newsletter here....sure saves a lot of stamps....
I hope you didn't take my posts as indicating that I've ever found you offensive. I haven't, I was just trying to present a perspective that I've witnessed, and in the past experienced, in relation to missionaries.
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 02:08 PM
You assumed quiet a bit in your "The TRUTH is" post, don't you think?
AFF hates greedy, whiny, preachers.
I've yet to see anyone post a need on this forum (and another forum or two) and have regular members respond less than graciously. If you know of an instance, please point it out.
I think you are forgetting that Sister Alvear doesn't belong to an organization that assists her with fundraising. She must do her own fundraising. To an extent, that means many times just swallowing your pride and asking for money point blank.
God bless the Missionaries. They even have more dangerous criminal risks than most in America. (except me when I drive into the hood at night to do home bible studies and hear gunfire)
So right under missionaries in regards to risk ... is Coadie. ...
Got it.
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 02:11 PM
So right under missionaries in regards to risk ... is Coadie. ...
Got it.
:spit :toofunny :toofunny
rgcraig
09-15-2010, 02:18 PM
What exactly is a God complex?
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 02:19 PM
Probably the hardest thing I do is make pleas...I have to make myself do it most of the time and remond myself it is 99% of the time NOT for me but for a people that live in dire poverty....Only the Lord knows how I fight within myself to even post at times...I know people laugh at me at times and make jokes...However the cause is greater than my shame....
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 02:20 PM
What exactly is a God complex?
I wondered that too...
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 02:22 PM
According to the faithful wiki:
A god complex is a non-clinical term generally used to describe an individual who consistently believes they can accomplish more than is humanly possible or that their opinion is automatically above those they may disagree with.[1] The individual may believe he or she is above the rules of society and should be given special consideration or privileges.
Perhaps Owl can let us know if this is what he/she meant to imply.
I have not read this whole thread.
I do remember Foreign Missionaries being supported financially, emotionally and were given more respect than Home Missionaries.....who were kind of treated like the losers who couldn't get a "real" church.
I do see why some foreign missionaries would decry the excesses in America. Maybe they aren't expressing it where people can respond positively.
rgcraig
09-15-2010, 02:26 PM
According to the faithful wiki:
A god complex is a non-clinical term generally used to describe an individual who consistently believes they can accomplish more than is humanly possible or that their opinion is automatically above those they may disagree with.[1] The individual may believe he or she is above the rules of society and should be given special consideration or privileges.
Perhaps Owl can let us know if this is what he/she meant to imply.
Well, that's my point - - that's a god complex.
I'm just wondering if a God complex means something else.
rgcraig
09-15-2010, 02:30 PM
You know, maybe I was just raised a bit differently, but to complain about someone doing God's work so selflessly as it appears Sis. Alvear does wouldn't even cross my mind. I would fear that God would stand me next to her on judgment day.
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 02:31 PM
I have not read this whole thread.
I do remember Foreign Missionaries being supported financially, emotionally and were given more respect than Home Missionaries.....who were kind of treated like the losers who couldn't get a "real" church.
That was (and maybe still is) a problem when my Dad pastored, but it's not the fault of missionaries. When my Dad finally "graduated" out of that program, he always made a point to help home missionaries for that reason.
I do see why some foreign missionaries would decry the excesses in America. Maybe they aren't expressing it where people can respond positively.
And I would think it to be very tricky to express a need for funds in a way in which no one is ever offended. Even trickier still to express frustration at the "system" or general selfishness. It's like a pastor having to ask for money to pay the church utilities. If you're a small church, it's squeezing blood out of a turnip, but if you don't let people know, they'll be pretty upset when the lights go out. :blink
coadie
09-15-2010, 02:34 PM
You know, maybe I was just raised a bit differently, but to complain about someone doing God's work so selflessly as it appears Sis. Alvear does wouldn't even cross my mind. I would fear that God would stand me next to her on judgment day.
We have to honor those people. Amen.
That was (and maybe still is) a problem when my Dad pastored, but it's not the fault of missionaries. When my Dad finally "graduated" out of that program, he always made a point to help home missionaries for that reason.
Oh, I'm not saying it's the fault of the missionaries.....just that it's easier to help those who are afar off easier than it is to help those in your own backyard. I'm confident it's still a problem.
And I would think it to be very tricky to express a need for funds in a way in which no one is ever offended. Even trickier still to express frustration at the "system" or general selfishness. It's like a pastor having to ask for money to pay the church utilities. If you're a small church, it's squeezing blood out of a turnip, but if you don't let people know, they'll be pretty upset when the lights go out. :blink
I can honestly say, we never asked people for money so the lights would not go out. We would just make more ourselves and make things happen.
What exactly is a God complex?
Ask Coadie.
Cindy
09-15-2010, 02:53 PM
And there are churches in the US that are not qualified as Home Missions that need help. So to all that post on AFF and Facebook.........give when you can to whomever you can. And if you need help, ask. It might surprise you who will help.
Cindy
09-15-2010, 02:53 PM
Ask Coadie.
Go to the Office.
Sherri
09-15-2010, 02:56 PM
Boy, I'm glad I didn't see this thread until just now. I would have been seething all day! I spent all day making a video collage for a missions Sunday service, and getting ready to do Christmas shoeboxes for a missions work in Belize, and researching how to ship a container of supplies/textbooks to Africa. When you start insulting missionaries, you really get under my skin!!!
Until you've lived in a third world country for years, you have no right to criticize anything a missionary does or says, as long as it's ethical and moral. If (from what I understand without reading the entire thread) you are referring to Sis. Alvear, then I will come out fighting. These are precious people who have done without things that we would consider necessities, to bring the gospel to a place you wouldn't want to live.
I stayed in their home in Brazil and I will tell you that they live what they talk. They are totally sold out to their country of calling, and they love God with all their hearts. They live in constant danger, but with joy in their hearts. I don't care if she gets on here or FB or wherever and talks about their needs in Brazil - it's legitimate and I will send them whatever I can to help. And I would make the same statements about America that you mentioned......we are spoiled beyond measure and most Americans have no idea what goes on in other countries.
I just stood in Kenya this June and watched high school seniors whoop and holler and cheer because we were giving each of them a brand new pencil with an eraser. I cried as I thought about our kids here who get upset if they don't have the newest Ipod or phone.
I honor all missionaries who serve unselfishly. I wish God had called me to be one; nothing would have excited me more. But I guess He called me to be a supply, and I will do that to the best of my ability.
There, I'm done ranting for now.........
MissBrattified
09-15-2010, 03:13 PM
Oh, I'm not saying it's the fault of the missionaries.....just that it's easier to help those who are afar off easier than it is to help those in your own backyard. I'm confident it's still a problem.
I know you weren't (casting blame). I agree that for some reason we tend to miss needs right under our noses.
I can honestly say, we never asked people for money so the lights would not go out. We would just make more ourselves and make things happen.
My parents paid the church bills out of their personal bank account quite often, too. I remember the first time I ever did their books for them; I was shocked at the tiny income from tithes and offerings. Whenever there was a deficit, there would be a check from my parents to take up the slack. However, in our church, I would be VERY annoyed with my pastor if there was a need that he couldn't personally meet and he didn't give the congregation a chance to pitch in. We're supposed to be team players. A congregation is supposed to share and bear one another's burdens, and that includes any expenses involved in assembling together. I don't think it's in the job description of a pastor to take on more of the financial burden than anyone else in the church.
I know you weren't (casting blame). I agree that for some reason we tend to miss needs right under our noses.
My parents paid the church bills out of their personal bank account quite often, too. I remember the first time I ever did their books for them; I was shocked at the tiny income from tithes and offerings. Whenever there was a deficit, there would be a check from my parents to take up the slack. However, in our church, I would be VERY annoyed with my pastor if there was a need that he couldn't personally meet and he didn't give the congregation a chance to pitch in. We're supposed to be team players. A congregation is supposed to share and bear one another's burdens, and that includes any expenses involved in assembling together. I don't think it's in the job description of a pastor to take on more of the financial burden than anyone else in the church.
Very often, it's simply a reality.
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 04:34 PM
I personally stand with my family and honor all the home and foreign missionaries. I will never forget one night in the jungle at a little Roman Catholic mission the priest and mother superior gave me a bed to sleep in...I do not agree with their doctrine but kindness and love is never forgotton...I honor their sacrifice and cringe to think I will stand in judgment with those that did not have what I consider truth yet sacrificed far more than I have in the name of Christ.
Dear ones...I was not even talking about a person I was talking about a state that should I say most americans live in and do not even realize it for they have no knowledge of grave dangers. Sherri has been here, where we live in Brazil our life is in 24/7 danger. Yet God has blessed me with such a nice home and a beautiful headquarters church in the mist of deep poverty.
Sherri visited one of the works at the cane fields where people are killed every week. I just was asked to take over that work.
NO one that I have ever visited is as poor as some of those people back in those areas...Sherri went halfway back for a service the other night we went on back further...
How could pen and paper describe some places? However I do not count it a sacrifice...I LOVE being a missionary....love it enough to die for the cause...and believe me we face death often...
OneAccord
09-15-2010, 05:56 PM
Very sad.
To many of these countries, just living in the US seems to them we are rich. Is there needs in the US, of course, but as a whole, Americans are blessed.
A friend I work with just returned from Peru - a very poor nation. It was a vacation not a missions trip. They visited a school while they were there and gave $7 US to provide the children a "treat" that day. Each child was giving a small piece of cheese and crackers and he said they were so excited.
He stood and just cried to witness that.
Are there needs in the US - - yes, of course and we do need to take care of our own too. But, I wasn't offended at all by what was said - - these countries live in huts with dirt floors - they don't have government programs helping them provide school lunches, provide groceries, etc.
I think some were a little hyper sensitive to the heart of what was being spoken.
You can say that again, Sista. Oh. You just did.
OneAccord
09-15-2010, 05:58 PM
Boy, I'm glad I didn't see this thread until just now. I would have been seething all day! I spent all day making a video collage for a missions Sunday service, and getting ready to do Christmas shoeboxes for a missions work in Belize, and researching how to ship a container of supplies/textbooks to Africa. When you start insulting missionaries, you really get under my skin!!!
Until you've lived in a third world country for years, you have no right to criticize anything a missionary does or says, as long as it's ethical and moral. If (from what I understand without reading the entire thread) you are referring to Sis. Alvear, then I will come out fighting. These are precious people who have done without things that we would consider necessities, to bring the gospel to a place you wouldn't want to live.
I stayed in their home in Brazil and I will tell you that they live what they talk. They are totally sold out to their country of calling, and they love God with all their hearts. They live in constant danger, but with joy in their hearts. I don't care if she gets on here or FB or wherever and talks about their needs in Brazil - it's legitimate and I will send them whatever I can to help. And I would make the same statements about America that you mentioned......we are spoiled beyond measure and most Americans have no idea what goes on in other countries.
I just stood in Kenya this June and watched high school seniors whoop and holler and cheer because we were giving each of them a brand new pencil with an eraser. I cried as I thought about our kids here who get upset if they don't have the newest Ipod or phone.
I honor all missionaries who serve unselfishly. I wish God had called me to be one; nothing would have excited me more. But I guess He called me to be a supply, and I will do that to the best of my ability.
There, I'm done ranting for now.........
No, no, rant on, Sherri.
Praxeas
09-15-2010, 07:31 PM
Can you imagine how blessed a Home Missionary would feel if he received life time funding like Foreign Missionaries do?
I see a huge difference. In America you build a church and the people aren't living on a cup of rice a day and if they were that poor they can get free food in most cities.
Most people in churches I am familiar with in America, have cars and can get to church. The Pastor is being paid nicely and there are funds coming in for other things too.
In other places like Brazil when you are a missionary to several peoples including tribes, you not only don't just have a thriving church that has tons of money, but you have to drive and even hike to people living out in the boonies.
Someone that can be a missionary to a place like Germany can probably get a decent paying job too
Praxeas
09-15-2010, 07:33 PM
Maybe the local church struggles to stay afloat? Maybe they view their own community as a mission field? Maybe they don't trust overseas charities?
Then local churches in that situation don't have the money to give. She wasn't saying they did
Praxeas
09-15-2010, 07:33 PM
That's not very nice. Good thing I don't give a hoot.
Really? Because you sound like someone that gives a hoot.
coadie
09-15-2010, 07:35 PM
I see a huge difference. In America you build a church and the people aren't living on a cup of rice a day and if they were that poor they can get free food in most cities.
Most people in churches I am familiar with in America, have cars and can get to church. The Pastor is being paid nicely and there are funds coming in for other things too.
In other places like Brazil when you are a missionary to several peoples including tribes, you not only don't just have a thriving church that has tons of money, but you have to drive and even hike to people living out in the boonies.
Someone that can be a missionary to a place like Germany can probably get a decent paying job too
Nope. Most euro countries no jobs. That includes spouses of execs that are positioned in europe. Lot of countries are very protective. (except for Muslims)
Praxeas
09-15-2010, 07:38 PM
You didn't specify. Oh well.
I'm just a bitter, yelping dog who should be ashamed of himself.:blah
Did you ask before your feathers got so ruffled you'd come here and start a single thread with the soul purpose of attacking this lady?
berkeley
09-15-2010, 08:35 PM
sole purpose
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 08:55 PM
I am tough from battle ....better me than someone weak...
Cindy
09-15-2010, 08:56 PM
I am giving Owl the benefit of doubt, as I think he misunderstood Sister Alvears post on Facebook.
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 09:13 PM
We are all just humans and we often see things differently. No hard feelings on my part we just think differently...
kristian's_mom
09-15-2010, 09:26 PM
My mom had a huge collection of christian books and cassettes when I was a child. I'll never forget reading one called Of Caesar's Household. It was about a family of missionaries in either Colombia or Brazil, I won't go into detail what happened to their family but I have nothing but the utmost respect for missionaries.
Sister Alvear
09-15-2010, 09:59 PM
My mom had a huge collection of christian books and cassettes when I was a child. I'll never forget reading one called Of Caesar's Household. It was about a family of missionaries in either Colombia or Brazil, I won't go into detail what happened to their family but I have nothing but the utmost respect for missionaries.
yes that was a true and awesome book...They were missionaries in Colombia. Thousands of christians were killed. It was written by Mollie Thompson.
Praxeas
09-15-2010, 11:03 PM
sole purpose
Right...or maybe it is soul purpose? :grampa
Praxeas
09-15-2010, 11:04 PM
I am giving Owl the benefit of doubt, as I think he misunderstood Sister Alvears post on Facebook.
I can't for unspecified reasons
Cindy
09-15-2010, 11:13 PM
I can't for unspecified reasons
All righty then. I trust your judgment.
Praxeas
09-15-2010, 11:31 PM
All righty then. I trust your judgment.
:-)
jfrog
09-16-2010, 07:35 AM
I'm a little confused. Why don't the Americans who claim Americans aren't giving enough give more and give until it hurts? I mean if they really believe they could be doing more then why aren't they doing more?
I don't mean to pick on you MissB. It is just your post exemplified what I seen in this thread. I have not read all of the thread though. I also want to note that when I say you, I'm not just referring just to MissB, I'm referring to anyone who believes we should be doing more.
Shame on you, Owl.
The truth is, that while Americans DO give huge amounts of money to charitable and mission-oriented causes, we do NOT give as much as we could. Nor do we suffer poverty the way that those in third world countries suffer poverty. When we "give till it hurts", truthfully we are not hurting, and we still have our needs (and our families' needs) met.
We don't give as much as we should? If you really believe that then maybe you will at least start giving as much as you should. Giving as much as we should begins with you giving as much as you should.
The TRUTH is, only those who have sacrificed everything for the sake of the kingdom will understand these sorts of posts. Missionaries definitely endure more hardship and SEE more hardship than your average American Christian. Therefore, I respect what missionaries have to say, assuming that they have more experience with these things than I do.
The TRUTH is, we give to missions and charities, but we most DEFINITELY could be giving more.
Then you start giving more!
The TRUTH is, we give our dollars, because sometimes that alleviates the guilt we feel for not actually DOING anything.
Then you go and actually do something!
The TRUTH is, if something that was posted bothers you that much, maybe it isn't the speaker's motives you should be analyzing.
The truth is that if what Owl posted bothers you so much then it isn't her motives you should be analyzing. In other word that's a two way street.
The TRUTH is, there's nothing productive in you coming here and maligning a very dear woman, simply because you felt a little guilt when you read her posts. Perhaps you should take that guilt and do something with it.
Or maybe since you totally agree that you aren't giving enough then maybe you should take that belief and put it into action. I say let those that believe they aren't doing enough be the first to do more.
The TRUTH is, if you get out and start making concerted efforts to evangelize and do outreach, you will be unpleasantly surprised at how FEW American Christians really want to get their hands dirty. (statistically speaking) They might be willing to donate money to your cause--just so they don't have to wash their hands later.
The truth is if you really really believe that then you should be the first in line to get your hands dirty.
You should be absolutely ashamed of this thread, Owl.
I have no problem with a missionary describing conditions over there and asking if I can give more or do more. I have a problem with a missionary telling me that if I don't give more then I am not doing enough.
I also have a problem with fellow Americans telling me I should give more to missions just because I can. I say that if they believe that then they should give more to missions just because they can.
I can see why Owl was offended by the missionaries post. It accused most every American of not loving Jesus because their actions in terms of giving to missions don't show it. It also said that the reason that the giving to missions doesn't show a love for Jesus was because we have a comparitive excess and could be doing more. I think Owl shouldn't be the only one offended by those words. Every American Christian who could be doing more should be offended for being accused of not loving Jesus. The fact is we all could be giving more and as long as we aren't giving all that we can then by the words of that missionary we don't love Jesus. I hope I've explained mine and Owl's problem with that statement.
By the way, Sis Alevear I forgive you and don't think you purposefully meant for your words to mean all of that.
MissBrattified
09-16-2010, 09:50 AM
I'm a little confused. Why don't the Americans who claim Americans aren't giving enough give more and give until it hurts? I mean if they really believe they could be doing more then why aren't they doing more?
I don't mean to pick on you MissB. It is just your post exemplified what I seen in this thread. I have not read all of the thread though. I also want to note that when I say you, I'm not just referring just to MissB, I'm referring to anyone who believes we should be doing more.
You really need to read the entire thread. Furthermore, I know where the original post came from, and that poster knows better.
I have no problem with a missionary describing conditions over there and asking if I can give more or do more. I have a problem with a missionary telling me that if I don't give more then I am not doing enough.
I also have a problem with fellow Americans telling me I should give more to missions just because I can. I say that if they believe that then they should give more to missions just because they can.
I can see why Owl was offended by the missionaries post. It accused most every American of not loving Jesus because their actions in terms of giving to missions don't show it. It also said that the reason that the giving to missions doesn't show a love for Jesus was because we have a comparitive excess and could be doing more. I think Owl shouldn't be the only one offended by those words. Every American Christian who could be doing more should be offended for being accused of not loving Jesus. The fact is we all could be giving more and as long as we aren't giving all that we can then by the words of that missionary we don't love Jesus. I hope I've explained mine and Owl's problem with that statement.
By the way, Sis Alevear I forgive you and don't think you purposefully meant for your words to mean all of that.
Sister Alvear didn't say anything that requires forgiveness. :rolleyes2
jfrog, generally speaking, Americans are spoiled. We don't have nearly the hardship of other countries. Most Christians don't suffer for their religion in this country, but in other countries it can mean persecution, harassment, prison or even death. Even when we are scraping by, we still have more, generally speaking, than millions of other people all over the world. So, by that token, even when we "give till it hurts", we aren't truly hurting.
When my husband and I look over the budget to decide what we can give, we give us much as is comfortable. We give generously, but we aren't taking anything off the table for ourselves in order to do so. There HAVE been times when my husband was out of work or when his income was down when it was difficult to give tithes and offerings, but we did it anyway--and I'm convinced that God has blessed us for being faithful. Even in those times when our finances were tight, we never went without true necessities.
I'm informed enough to know that this is the case for MOST Americans. Ergo, I can speak for most of us when I say that while we are generous, it is true that we are STILL spoiled.
That's not to say that our blessings are a bad thing. We should be thankful and appreciate what we have and be good stewards of what God has given us. But I think we can take what a missionary has to say from another perspective and appreciate it for what it means--that some people are too caught up in their traditional lifestyle of plenty and comfort to think about the pain of others.
As for "getting my hands dirty"...I'm not going to make you a list, but suffice it to say that I've been on the side of ministry long enough to know that very few [statistically--man, I hate having to qualify every little statement] are willing to actually do what is needed. Most would PREFER to throw money at a problem because that's easy and it alleviates the guilt of laziness. That's a fact, and if it makes you uncomfortable, too bad. I grew up in a pastor's home and I've been in ministry my entire life, and I've seen how few people actually want to "work" for the kingdom of God. There's an old statistic that says 20% of the people do 80% of the work, and it holds true for the most part. You have people who work, and you have others who expect to be served. That's just the way it is. I don't resent it, but I would be an ostrich if I didn't acknowledge it. I've personally seen people refuse to go to certain areas of town, so they will offer money to an effort instead. That's not to say that we shouldn't give, because obviously we can't all go overseas and we can't all immerse ourselves in charity, so it makes sense to support those who can. However, it would be obtuse to ignore the fact that money makes it easy for spoiled Christians to keep their hands quite clean and shiny.
It would do us all good to remember that God destroyed Sodom because of their lack of charity, among other things:
Ezekiel 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
rgcraig
09-16-2010, 10:10 AM
This scripture came to my mind - -
Good sense makes a man restrain his anger, and it is his glory to overlook a transgression or an offense. (Proverbs 19:11, AMP)
Sister Alvear
09-16-2010, 10:38 AM
What I said is written in hundreds of books however no one meant one certain person...
Once I was walking into a huge church and the pastor's grandson (little boy) walked up and said my grandpa doesn't believe in missionaries.... And only because they knew me did they give me any kind of offering at all...They according to church members had thousands (many thousands) in the bank idle...It is churches like that that most people refer to...churches that could help even in the homeland but do not...
I understand people get burnt out by both home and foreign missionaries that are not up to par however there are real people all over the world that deserve our (my) help. That is why our Brazilian churches helps national missionaries, helps in Paraguay, has built a church in the Philippines, helped a couple works in the Philippines and a few other outreaches.
That is why Brother Alvear and I have traveled to Portugal, Azores and helped many years in a national work in the Philippines and at the moment helping start another work in the Philippines.
We are NOT supported by the UPCI but have nothing bad to say about them. Their work in Brazil is awesome.
We have lived by faith for 42 years. I have always written telling the needs of Brazil and other places of the world. Brazil is my calling but not my only passion. I have been asked by friends (home mission independent) pastors on several occasions for help and made trips on my credit card to preach and spend time helping, praying and whatever I was asked to do and the same goes for Brother Alvear. He too has spent time helping several Spanish speaking churches.
My husband comes from a long line of preachers. So gospel work is all he has ever known. I rejoice he speaks Spanish and is able to help in the Spanish-speaking world. He just got back from preaching in Chile and at this moment he is in south Brazil preaching and flies in tonight for our son's wedding tomorrow.
Do I know about going without? Yes beloved I do...Was it a sacrifice? Not really in comparison to what many suffer...mine have been light afflictions...
I traveled with Richard and Sabrina Wurmbrand...I have no scars, no years in communist prisons, no years and years underground separated from friends and family, I have never taken communion in an empty cup or broke an invisible piece of bread in remembrance of His suffering...
I just spent the night in a little convent in the middle of the jungle encamped around by Xavante Indians...I sat and listened to little Italian families tell me the horrors of living between two fierce Indians tribes that are always at war and neither cared a hoot that they were there telling them what they know about Christ...I wept all night long because I judged myself superior in knowledge to the Roman Catholics but they were there doing what we are supposed to do...
Do I take their sacrifice lightly just because they do not have truth? No, a thousand times no. In fact it haunts me...
Do I take sacrifice of home missionaries lightly? No, I have emptied my pockets in their churches...
Why don't you call Dr. John Scheels and ask him who went and preached revivals for him in a little storefront long before God blessed him with a beautiful home and church he will tell you.... He told the story at his conference this year...when I was the speaker at a beautiful church.... almost breath taking but it was not always that way.... His wife was my best friend in school and continues to be such a friend. I know very close the sacrifices made by our precious indescribable homeland friends.
I often call and write many of them. However I do agree many in the homeland mostly forget them but it is not my fault that they often go unnoticed. God does record every sacrifice we made and I am sure on that day their rewards will be so great and inn light of the reward even their sufferings on that day will seem so small.
I deeply honor churches that help missions. I go to churches that do NOT support me and encourage them to continue supporting the precious missionaries they support. There is no use in pulling support from one to help another one.
Well, I have a lot to say…but don’t have time…. have done a lot today and have a lot more things to do….
Blessings to all and once again if you are offended at me I ask your forgiveness….
You really need to read the entire thread. Furthermore, I know where the original post came from, and that poster knows better.
Sister Alvear didn't say anything that requires forgiveness. :rolleyes2
jfrog, generally speaking, Americans are spoiled. We don't have nearly the hardship of other countries. Most Christians don't suffer for their religion in this country, but in other countries it can mean persecution, harassment, prison or even death. Even when we are scraping by, we still have more, generally speaking, than millions of other people all over the world. So, by that token, even when we "give till it hurts", we aren't truly hurting.
When my husband and I look over the budget to decide what we can give, we give us much as is comfortable. We give generously, but we aren't taking anything off the table for ourselves in order to do so. There HAVE been times when my husband was out of work or when his income was down when it was difficult to give tithes and offerings, but we did it anyway--and I'm convinced that God has blessed us for being faithful. Even in those times when our finances were tight, we never went without true necessities.
I'm informed enough to know that this is the case for MOST Americans. Ergo, I can speak for most of us when I say that while we are generous, it is true that we are STILL spoiled.
That's not to say that our blessings are a bad thing. We should be thankful and appreciate what we have and be good stewards of what God has given us. But I think we can take what a missionary has to say from another perspective and appreciate it for what it means--that some people are too caught up in their traditional lifestyle of plenty and comfort to think about the pain of others.
As for "getting my hands dirty"...I'm not going to make you a list, but suffice it to say that I've been on the side of ministry long enough to know that very few [statistically--man, I hate having to qualify every little statement] are willing to actually do what is needed. Most would PREFER to throw money at a problem because that's easy and it alleviates the guilt of laziness. That's a fact, and if it makes you uncomfortable, too bad. I grew up in a pastor's home and I've been in ministry my entire life, and I've seen how few people actually want to "work" for the kingdom of God. There's an old statistic that says 20% of the people do 80% of the work, and it holds true for the most part. You have people who work, and you have others who expect to be served. That's just the way it is. I don't resent it, but I would be an ostrich if I didn't acknowledge it. I've personally seen people refuse to go to certain areas of town, so they will offer money to an effort instead. That's not to say that we shouldn't give, because obviously we can't all go overseas and we can't all immerse ourselves in charity, so it makes sense to support those who can. However, it would be obtuse to ignore the fact that money makes it easy for spoiled Christians to keep their hands quite clean and shiny.
It would do us all good to remember that God destroyed Sodom because of their lack of charity, among other things:
Ezekiel 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Miss B, your post cracks me up. You join the hallelujah chorus railing against American giving, and describe us as spoiled and lazy, yet you choose to only give what is comfortable. That is not sacrifice.
The TRUTH is, thousands of American ministers give far and above what is comfortable. They don't give out of abundance, they give even though it DOES take food off of their table. They give and give and give.
If you can't see that the missionaries, and the work they do, are funded much better than American pastors and home missionaries you're blind.
It's one thing to complain about the poverty of foreigners. No one will disagree there is a great disparity between America and third world nations. It's another to say we should provide welfare to people who won't change their own governmental policies to become economically prosperous.
Every Christian should feel compelled to give to missions because of a burden for souls. Missions work, however, does not exist to end poverty and correct social injustices.
Lastly, some of the folks who have been the most aghast on this thread probably never involve themselves in any spiritual outreach work. They throw a bit of extra money at missions and think they have fulfilled the Great Commission. That Commission is to "go," NOT spend.
Sherri
09-16-2010, 11:23 AM
Miss B, your post cracks me up. You join the hallelujah chorus railing against American giving, and describe us as spoiled and lazy, yet you choose to only give what is comfortable. That is not sacrifice.
The TRUTH is, thousands of American ministers give far and above what is comfortable. They don't give out of abundance, they give even though it DOES take food off of their table. They give and give and give.
If you can't see that the missionaries, and the work they do, are funded much better than American pastors and home missionaries you're blind.
It's one thing to complain about the poverty of foreigners. No one will disagree there is a great disparity between America and third world nations. It's another to say we should provide welfare to people who won't change their own governmental policies to become economically prosperous.
Every Christian should feel compelled to give to missions because of a burden for souls. Missions work, however, does not exist to end poverty and correct social injustices.
Lastly, some of the folks who have been the most aghast on this thread probably never involve themselves in any spiritual outreach work. They throw a bit of extra money at missions and think they have fulfilled the Great Commission. That Commission is to "go," NOT spend.
I go AND spend for missions, as much and as often as I can. There is no greater honor. Your attack on Sis. Alvear was uncalled for; you obviously don't know them personally.
I go AND spend for missions, as much and as often as I can. There is no greater honor. Your attack on Sis. Alvear was uncalled for; you obviously don't know them personally.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I did not attack her, I took issue with her very, very insulting comments. Your commitment to missions is admirable.
rgcraig
09-16-2010, 11:30 AM
Miss B, your post cracks me up. You join the hallelujah chorus railing against American giving, and describe us as spoiled and lazy, yet you choose to only give what is comfortable. That is not sacrifice.
The TRUTH is, thousands of American ministers give far and above what is comfortable. They don't give out of abundance, they give even though it DOES take food off of their table. They give and give and give.
If you can't see that the missionaries, and the work they do, are funded much better than American pastors and home missionaries you're blind.
It's one thing to complain about the poverty of foreigners. No one will disagree there is a great disparity between America and third world nations. It's another to say we should provide welfare to people who won't change their own governmental policies to become economically prosperous.
Every Christian should feel compelled to give to missions because of a burden for souls. Missions work, however, does not exist to end poverty and correct social injustices.
Lastly, some of the folks who have been the most aghast on this thread probably never involve themselves in any spiritual outreach work. They throw a bit of extra money at missions and think they have fulfilled the Great Commission. That Commission is to "go," NOT spend.
Really?
I'm a little confused. Why don't the Americans who claim Americans aren't giving enough give more and give until it hurts? I mean if they really believe they could be doing more then why aren't they doing more?
I don't mean to pick on you MissB. It is just your post exemplified what I seen in this thread. I have not read all of the thread though. I also want to note that when I say you, I'm not just referring just to MissB, I'm referring to anyone who believes we should be doing more.
I have no problem with a missionary describing conditions over there and asking if I can give more or do more. I have a problem with a missionary telling me that if I don't give more then I am not doing enough.
I also have a problem with fellow Americans telling me I should give more to missions just because I can. I say that if they believe that then they should give more to missions just because they can.
I can see why Owl was offended by the missionaries post. It accused most every American of not loving Jesus because their actions in terms of giving to missions don't show it. It also said that the reason that the giving to missions doesn't show a love for Jesus was because we have a comparitive excess and could be doing more. I think Owl shouldn't be the only one offended by those words. Every American Christian who could be doing more should be offended for being accused of not loving Jesus. The fact is we all could be giving more and as long as we aren't giving all that we can then by the words of that missionary we don't love Jesus. I hope I've explained mine and Owl's problem with that statement.
By the way, Sis Alevear I forgive you and don't think you purposefully meant for your words to mean all of that.
Nice post. Great synopsis.
Really?
Very much so.
Consider: Most missionaries get cars and a salary for life.
I don't know any home missionaries with that luxury.
I think it's great that missionaries are well cared for.
rgcraig
09-16-2010, 11:36 AM
Very much so.
Consider: Most missionaries get cars and a salary for life.
I don't know any home missionaries with that luxury.
I think it's great that missionaries are well cared for.
You know what.....I think you need to remember that the lady that you were offended by IS NOT supported by WEC. You DO NOT know her circumstances.
Plus, you do know that if someone wants to give a UPC missionary additional money (above their self-raised budget) that the missionary is required to report the amount so that it can be deducted from their monthly check?
You know what.....I think you need to remember that the lady that you were offended by IS NOT supported by WEC. You DO NOT know her circumstances.
Plus, you do know that if someone wants to give a UPC missionary additional money (above their self-raised budget) that the missionary is required to report the amount so that it can be deducted from their monthly check?
Yes, I know all of that. I'm glad they are well cared for.
rgcraig
09-16-2010, 11:38 AM
Yes, I know all of that. I'm glad they are well cared for.
But, you're upset that home missionaries don't have the same?
MissBrattified
09-16-2010, 11:41 AM
Miss B, your post cracks me up. You join the hallelujah chorus railing against American giving, and describe us as spoiled and lazy, yet you choose to only give what is comfortable. That is not sacrifice.
And I absolutely agree with you. We don't give sacrificially at this point, although we have...sort of...in the past. I say "sort of" because even when we were in tight spots, we had our basic needs met, so it seems that compared to those in other countries we were still in good shape. Apparently you're not comprehending my point. I'm saying that even when we give "sacrificially", we are still better off than most in other parts of the world, so by comparison, it's hard to call it a sacrifice.
The TRUTH is, thousands of American ministers give far and above what is comfortable. They don't give out of abundance, they give even though it DOES take food off of their table. They give and give and give.
Yes, they do. I absolutely AGREE. I was a PK, and we did do without at our house a few times because my parents would pay the church bills when things came up short in the church accounts. They would go buy groceries for people who didn't have any and we would eat beans and cornbread all week to make up for it. But American MINISTERS don't comprise the whole of American CHRISTIANS. Did Sister Alvear comment about American Christians as a whole? Or did she pinpoint ministers?
If you can't see that the missionaries, and the work they do, are funded much better than American pastors and home missionaries you're blind.
OHHHHHH, so this thread is about comparing what missionaries receive to what American pastors and home missionaries receive. My bad. I thought it was about Sister Alvear "whining" about terrible Americans not giving enough to missions.
It's one thing to complain about the poverty of foreigners. No one will disagree there is a great disparity between America and third world nations. It's another to say we should provide welfare to people who won't change their own governmental policies to become economically prosperous.
Every Christian should feel compelled to give to missions because of a burden for souls. Missions work, however, does not exist to end poverty and correct social injustices.
Lastly, some of the folks who have been the most aghast on this thread probably never involve themselves in any spiritual outreach work. They throw a bit of extra money at missions and think they have fulfilled the Great Commission. That Commission is to "go," NOT spend.
I agree. So go. Get off your bum and quit whining because Sister A made you feel guilty for some reason. Be about your Father's business, because I can promise you THIS (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=31547) is not His business. :pullhair
And I absolutely agree with you. We don't give sacrificially at this point, although we have...sort of...in the past. I say "sort of" because even when we were in tight spots, we had our basic needs met, so it seems that compared to those in other countries we were still in good shape. Apparently you're not comprehending my point. I'm saying that even when we give "sacrificially", we are still better off than most in other parts of the world, so by comparison, it's hard to call it a sacrifice.
Yes, they do. I absolutely AGREE. I was a PK, and we did do without at our house a few times because my parents would pay the church bills when things came up short in the church accounts. They would go buy groceries for people who didn't have any and we would eat beans and cornbread all week to make up for it. But American MINISTERS don't comprise the whole of American CHRISTIANS. Did Sister Alvear comment about American Christians as a whole? Or did she pinpoint ministers?
OHHHHHH, so this thread is about comparing what missionaries receive to what American pastors and home missionaries receive. My bad. I thought it was about Sister Alvear "whining" about terrible Americans not giving enough to missions.
I agree. So go. Get off your bum and quit whining because Sister A made you feel guilty for some reason. Be about your Father's business, because I can promise you THIS (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=31547) is not His business. :pullhair
I suppose the comparisons are necessary when one considers the amount of whining about how lazy and selfish we Americans are. It's hard to listen to the guilt trips when there's nothing left to give.
Oh, and I promise you I feel no guilt.
Again, if a pastor had posted that Americans were lazy and selfish givers he would have been tarred and feathered. Every one would have called him an ungrateful money-grubber. All of AFF would have descended upon him like a pack of hungry wolves.
It's all about perspective. I'm sorry yours is so narrow.
rgcraig
09-16-2010, 11:51 AM
I suppose the comparisons are necessary when one considers the amount of whining about how lazy and selfish we Americans are. It's hard to listen to the guilt trips when there's nothing left to give.
Oh, and I promise you I feel no guilt.
Again, if a pastor had posted that Americans were lazy and selfish givers he would have been tarred and feathered. Every one would have called him an ungrateful money-grubber. All of AFF would have descended upon him like a pack of hungry wolves.
It's all about perspective. I'm sorry yours is so narrow.
:pullhair
MissBrattified
09-16-2010, 11:54 AM
I suppose the comparisons are necessary when one considers the amount of whining about how lazy and selfish we Americans are. It's hard to listen to the guilt trips when there's nothing left to give.
Oh, and I promise you I feel no guilt.
Again, if a pastor had posted that Americans were lazy and selfish givers he would have been tarred and feathered. Every one would have called him an ungrateful money-grubber. All of AFF would have descended upon him like a pack of hungry wolves.
It's all about perspective. I'm sorry yours is so narrow.
And I'm sorry that you've decided to behave in such a disappointing way. :(
And I'm sorry that you've decided to behave in such a disappointing way. :(
And I'm sorry that you're sorry.
rgcraig
09-16-2010, 12:01 PM
Maybe Owl can be called to the jungles of Brazil so that his assumptions can be verified or refuted.
MissBrattified
09-16-2010, 12:03 PM
Maybe Owl can be called to the jungles of Brazil so that his assumptions can be verified or refuted.
At this point, I wish God would pick him up and drop him in the middle of a swamp somewhere with nothing but a Bible and a pair of boots. :razz
rgcraig
09-16-2010, 12:04 PM
At this point, I wish God would pick him up and drop him in the middle of a swamp somewhere with nothing but a Bible and a pair of boots. :razz
Oh, that would never happen. You know missionaries have Caddys and get paid for life! He'd be set.
MissBrattified
09-16-2010, 12:10 PM
Oh, that would never happen. You know missionaries have Caddys and get paid for life! He'd be set.
I seem to recall a post by Sister Alvear quite some time back showing Bro. Alvear's swollen feet after trekking through the jungle. I couldn't find the thread....
Sherri
09-16-2010, 12:17 PM
I'm thankful that the UPC supplies their missionaries with appliances and nice cars. I think its the least they can do. After visiting in some of their homes on the foreign fields, a car doesn't make up for the fact that they have to have razor wire around their yard and a "rape gate" inside their house. Many of them live in constant danger. I know one family (not in UPC) whose daughters were both violently raped and are now infected with HIV. Does a lifetime salary and a new car make up for those type of things? I don't think so. It's still a sacrifice, no matter what you think.
Sounds to me like bitterness from somewhere or something on Owl's part.
Margies3
09-16-2010, 12:20 PM
The TRUTH is, thousands of American ministers give far and above what is comfortable. They don't give out of abundance, they give even though it DOES take food off of their table. They give and give and give.
If you can't see that the missionaries, and the work they do, are funded much better than American pastors and home missionaries you're blind.
If that bothers you so much, why don't you work to change it? You don't need to take away from the help given to missionaries in order to make more help available to home missions tho. Remember? We are a prosperous and spoiled nation. Seriously, we do have plenty available to help with both causes. Why home missions is not better taken care of than they are (according to you. I have no personal experience with that, so can't really say) I don't know. But if it bothers you - I'll say it again - then YOU should work to change it.
It's one thing to complain about the poverty of foreigners. No one will disagree there is a great disparity between America and third world nations. It's another to say we should provide welfare to people who won't change their own governmental policies to become economically prosperous.
Every Christian should feel compelled to give to missions because of a burden for souls. Missions work, however, does not exist to end poverty and correct social injustices.
.
In most cases, I'd guess that the people needing the help are no more able to change their own governmental policies than you or I would be able to change governmental policies here in our country. You work with what you have to work with. If the chance comes along to make a change, then you jump on it. But the vast majority of the time, day-to-day survival is more important than changing the government. It's a sad fact.
whoami
09-16-2010, 12:25 PM
Wow, I kinda regret posting in this thread.
Knowing that Sis. Alvear doesn't have an organization supporting her sheds a lot of light on why the needs of the field might be overwhelming to her at times.
All the foreign missionaries I have known have been either UPC or Baptist, had strong organizational backing and came home with hefty savings accounts. Not saying that they didn't earn it, just that for the one's I've known personally, it wasn't that big of a financial sacrifice to be called to foreign missions.
Not having the financial backing of an organization is a whole different game.
I remember once when my Mother was in Mexico in a church van on her way to an orphanage in the mountains with food staples for the two ladies running the orphanage, they were stopped by Federali's with machine guns. The Federali's marched the missionaries out of the van at gunpoint and held them there while others searched the van. They were angry because they thought there would be beer in the van somewhere and ended up stealing the food. Because of their organizational backing of the mission trip they were able to go back to the city, get more, and start out again.
A missionary working with no organization behind them is a whole different breed (IMO) from missionaries with organizational backing. (Before anyone gets angry, I'm not saying that missionaries with organizational backing are bad, or not as good, or whatever. I'm just saying that not having that would make things MUCH harder, in my opinion.)
MissBrattified
09-16-2010, 12:51 PM
I don't suppose it crossed Owl's mind to directly message Sister A. under his real name about the offensive posts and handle it that way? :coffee2
At this point, I wish God would pick him up and drop him in the middle of a swamp somewhere with nothing but a Bible and a pair of boots. :razz
Been there, done that, bought the tee shirt.
"Don't repay evil for evil. Don't retaliate with insults when people insult you. Instead, pay them back with a blessing. That is what God has called you to do, and he will bless you for it." 1 Peter 3:9
MissBrattified
09-16-2010, 12:59 PM
Been there, done that, bought the tee shirt.
"Don't repay evil for evil. Don't retaliate with insults when people insult you. Instead, pay them back with a blessing. That is what God has called you to do, and he will bless you for it." 1 Peter 3:9
Wow. LOL!!!!!! Great scripture. :thumbsup
Wow. LOL!!!!!! Great scripture. :thumbsup
Yes, it is. Now go live it!:thumbsup
MissBrattified
09-16-2010, 01:02 PM
Yes, it is. Now go live it!:thumbsup
:hurtyou
Praxeas
09-16-2010, 01:40 PM
If you can't see that the missionaries, and the work they do, are funded much better than American pastors and home missionaries you're blind.
If only that were true. Even people on welfare make more than someone in a lot of third world countries and most pastors don't have a congregation full of welfare recipients. They get tithed real money or they get a guaranteed salary. How much income do you think Sis A is getting from her congregation?
Here, even if a Pastor is not getting a boat load from tithes, at least he can get a decent job, maybe not in the current economy but it's not always bad. Brazil? The area the Alvears work in is dirt poor and most pastors would never EVER EVER even consider taking a church in area's like that because they don't pay good.
I find it incredible that you make it seem like Sis A is better off financially than American Pastors.
Most Home mission pastors are working a regular job too. Why don't you go spend 5 years in Brazil in Sis A's area, then come back and tell us how wealthy she is compared to American Pastors
Praxeas
09-16-2010, 01:43 PM
I suppose the comparisons are necessary when one considers the amount of whining about how lazy and selfish we Americans are. It's hard to listen to the guilt trips when there's nothing left to give.
Oh, and I promise you I feel no guilt.
Again, if a pastor had posted that Americans were lazy and selfish givers he would have been tarred and feathered. Every one would have called him an ungrateful money-grubber. All of AFF would have descended upon him like a pack of hungry wolves.
It's all about perspective. I'm sorry yours is so narrow.
So in order to prove how unwhiny and unselfish you are, you got up off your butt and started a whiny thread to slander this good woman? Wow. Im impressed.
Praxeas
09-16-2010, 01:45 PM
Maybe Owl can be called to the jungles of Brazil so that his assumptions can be verified or refuted.
Yeah and since owls are supposed to be wise and this poster is obviously stubborn, when he or she gets back I suggest a new avatar
http://helpmejoseph.typepad.com/charlotte_front_and_cente/images/2008/08/14/jackass.jpg
jfrog
09-16-2010, 06:38 PM
Owl I totally disagree with you about missionaries being well paid. They are not. I still stand by my previous post though.
Sis Alvear, I still respect you and think you are doing an amazing work. I hope my comments and opinions didn't upset you. You have enough to think about I'm sure.
MissB, I still don't understand how you can be content to give the way you are after telling me in your previous posts that you should and could be doing more and that you are spoiled. If you really believe those things to be true about yourself then surely you must want to change and be a better person. So why don't you?
Sister Alvear
09-16-2010, 06:43 PM
The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Therefore, beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest." (Matt. 9:37-38)
Ever since Jesus first spoke these compassionate words, the supply of workers in the fields of soul-harvest has always been horribly low. But today the need is the greatest it has ever been in the history of mankind. Remember, Hell is not just for the weekend! More people are alive today, and more souls are at stake, than the total number of people who have ever lived on the face of the earth in all of human history! This simply means that we can populate either Heaven or Hell by our obedience or our laziness. There are over 2,700,000,000 people who have never heard the Gospel at all, and there are only 5,000 to 7,000 missionaries worldwide, working directly with these totally unreached groups of people. That means there is approximately one missionary for every 450,000 of these people! There are over 16,000 different and distinct cultures and people-groups - even whole countries, where not one single church is in existence. There are 7,010 distinct living languages, and 5,199 of them still have no Bible or Scripture translations available in their own language! Do these figures move you at all? Does it matter to you that an estimated 80,000 unsaved people die every day (approximately 3,333 every hour...55 people every single minute!) to face the judgment seat of Christ? copied....
MissBrattified
09-16-2010, 11:13 PM
...MissB, I still don't understand how you can be content to give the way you are after telling me in your previous posts that you should and could be doing more and that you are spoiled. If you really believe those things to be true about yourself then surely you must want to change and be a better person. So why don't you?
Why do I feel like you're just skimming my posts????? :pullhair
First of all, jfrog, I'm part of a family with a husband. I don't make independent decisions about how much of our income we give or don't give. My husband is a very good steward of our income, and we give as he sees fit. I have input, but I defer to his judgment most of the time. I feel that we give generously, but I'm quite sure we could be doing more--as most Americans could. We have so many small luxuries that we consider "necessities" that most of us have way more wiggle room than we realize. :)
Secondly, I'm not saying that wiggle room is a BAD thing. I'm just pointing out that it's obtuse to pretend that Americans don't have plenty of wiggle room, financially speaking. Truth be told, most of us don't give sacrificially because we don't HAVE to sacrifice in order to give. We can give a generous amount and still have food on our own tables.
I'm not saying that we don't give. I'm saying that even when we DO give large amounts, it STILL doesn't put us in dire straits as it would some people in other places. Ergo, the missionary's frustration is understandable, because they see luxuries here that could translate into necessities there.
I'm not going to apologize for taking care of my family, for paying for my kids to have new clothes and bicycles and bubble gum and for eating out every now and then. But I DO recognize that sometimes we can be blind to the needs of others while we enjoy our own blessings. That knowledge is a tool that helps me be a good steward and helps me view my blessings with a measure of humility, understanding that not everyone is as privileged as we are, and it could all be taken away as quickly as it was given. We are then better served to share what we have as much as possible, seeing as it's all temporal anyway.
If my posts have somehow led you to believe that I'm a selfish person or that I think I'm a selfish person, then you've misread them or I've not been concise enough.
Michael
09-16-2010, 11:28 PM
Sis. Alvear, you have lost nothing by being defriended by owl....This kid couldn't walk 10 steps in your shoes.
God bless you!
Sister Alvear
09-17-2010, 10:51 AM
thank you....and thousands of precious friends all over the world....
Margies3
09-17-2010, 01:28 PM
Sis. Alvear, you have lost nothing by being defriended by owl....This kid couldn't walk 10 steps in your shoes.
God bless you!
Well said, Michael!
Sister Alvear
09-17-2010, 01:41 PM
thanks my twin...if the person were transparent I WOULD SAY the person would use their real name....until then....
Sister Alvear, God bless you and all our precious missionaries that have sacrificed so much more than most folks can begin to comprehend.
this thread and its orriginator sadden me.
Sister Alvear
09-17-2010, 03:39 PM
that's ok they posted on my facebook too...I hated that because my sisters read there and I try to protect them from .....
Sister Alvear
09-17-2010, 03:41 PM
and I am just filling in time waiting for the wedding time .... just a few more minutes and off to the church....
jfrog
09-19-2010, 09:49 PM
Why do I feel like you're just skimming my posts????? :pullhair
First of all, jfrog, I'm part of a family with a husband. I don't make independent decisions about how much of our income we give or don't give. My husband is a very good steward of our income, and we give as he sees fit. I have input, but I defer to his judgment most of the time. I feel that we give generously, but I'm quite sure we could be doing more--as most Americans could. We have so many small luxuries that we consider "necessities" that most of us have way more wiggle room than we realize. :)
Secondly, I'm not saying that wiggle room is a BAD thing. I'm just pointing out that it's obtuse to pretend that Americans don't have plenty of wiggle room, financially speaking. Truth be told, most of us don't give sacrificially because we don't HAVE to sacrifice in order to give. We can give a generous amount and still have food on our own tables.
I'm not saying that we don't give. I'm saying that even when we DO give large amounts, it STILL doesn't put us in dire straits as it would some people in other places. Ergo, the missionary's frustration is understandable, because they see luxuries here that could translate into necessities there.
I'm not going to apologize for taking care of my family, for paying for my kids to have new clothes and bicycles and bubble gum and for eating out every now and then. But I DO recognize that sometimes we can be blind to the needs of others while we enjoy our own blessings. That knowledge is a tool that helps me be a good steward and helps me view my blessings with a measure of humility, understanding that not everyone is as privileged as we are, and it could all be taken away as quickly as it was given. We are then better served to share what we have as much as possible, seeing as it's all temporal anyway.
If my posts have somehow led you to believe that I'm a selfish person or that I think I'm a selfish person, then you've misread them or I've not been concise enough.
MissB, I have never thought of you as a selfish person or anything like that. We disagree on things alot, but I respect you. I think you are a good person and have a great family and husband. I don't think you are selfish either and I imagine that you are a very generous giver.
I'm not arguing that you should give to the point of neglecting your family or even sacrificing all of the small luxuries you have. I don't think you should. In fact, I don't think giving is a requirement to be Christian. I don't even think it should be used as a measuring stick for comparing ourselves to other Christians. Those that give more aren't more Christian than those that don't give as much.
I even agree that its good for missionaries to remind us of how little the people they serve have. Such reminders can be quite eye openers.
I disagree with the bolded statement above. In fact it confuses me that you could even make it. You see, all your other words and even your actions reveal that you do not live by the bolded statement. I think that if you really believed the bolded statement that you would live by it. I don't blame you for not living by that bolded statement. What I am saying is that you shouldn't make that statement unless you are going to live by it.
The same goes with saying you agree with the missionaries words when what she said implied that those who don't give as much as they can don't love Jesus. It confuses me that you could agree with her words when your actions reveal that you do not give as much as you could and thus by the implications of her statement even you do not love Jesus. I think you do love Jesus though. In my view that's why you should disagree with the missionaries statement, because you have excess and don't give as much and you could but still love Jesus.
That's why I am confused. In one breath you tell me that giving more is better because everything is temporal. In the next breath you tell me that even though you could give more that you are not going to. In one breath you agree that those who don't give as much as they can aren't showing that they love Jesus. In the next breath you tell me that you love Jesus even though you could be giving more.
Sister Alvear
09-19-2010, 10:03 PM
well tonight we baptized 16 or 17 lost count....
jfrog
09-19-2010, 10:10 PM
well tonight we baptized 16 or 17 lost count....
:thumbsup that's great!
Sister Alvear
09-19-2010, 10:20 PM
no one said someone does not love Jesus...we problably all do not love Him enough....Maybe Brother Ballard that is a member on this forum and is at my house might post something here to help us all understand that we all need to do more to help save a lost world...
Sister Alvear
09-19-2010, 10:21 PM
I think we all are just coming from different angles....
Sister Alvear
09-19-2010, 10:23 PM
We have services somewhere everynight this week and some day services also....yet we still do not do enough...Pray for God to give us wisdom how to reach the lost...
jfrog
09-19-2010, 10:38 PM
I think we all are just coming from different angles....
Probably so. I usually come at things from a weird angle ;) I do believe you meant well with what you said Sister Alvear. Also, I admire your hard work and sacrifice. And I'm sure you are a great person.
I think we both agree that missionaries and the people they serve often need more help than they get. So I suppose we can try to focus more on where we agree than where we disagree. :)
Sister Alvear
09-20-2010, 04:50 AM
I am a person of peace...I live peace in the home, church and everywhere...I did not mean it like it sounded I only meant we could do much more, myself included....Guess I read to many Ravenhill books over and over along with Blow the trump in Zion...Anyone that knows me knows what I have lived for 42 years...I even received personal phone calls and e mails from different people....those that know me KNEW what I meant.
I will never forget sitting in a leper colony telling the president of the colony about Jesus and the gospel....after a while he looked at me and said, How long have you known thses things...
As a missionary it does bear on my mind that millions live their whole lives and never know...
timjoiner
09-21-2010, 09:11 PM
Very much so.
Consider: Most missionaries get cars and a salary for life.
I don't know any home missionaries with that luxury.
I think it's great that missionaries are well cared for.
I hardly ever post but I would like to comment here.....
Most missionaries that I know are very capable business people. That is how we end up with structured organizations that we do. Sensible people don't mind investing into the Kingdom of God when they can see and hear about where their money is going.
The same people could be in North America with a great income....If you compare what they could have, as to what they retire with, we are talking peanuts.
If you think it is such a lap of luxury...we will move over and let you have at it.
I think that you are a "Bitter Bozo"...you certainly don't know Sis. Alvear to speak of her in the manner that you do.
Owl...You need a "Boot to your Hoot!"
timjoiner
09-21-2010, 09:22 PM
Oh! I love you Sis. Alvear and thank God for you leading the way for this rookie.
Sister Alvear
09-21-2010, 09:57 PM
love you too, Brother Joiner and admire the wonderful work you and yours are doing.
Cowtown
09-21-2010, 10:28 PM
I'm sitting here in Brazil. And it's the first time for me to leave American soil. A trip that God laid on my heart about 10 years ago. I brought my son with me. I grew up at one point in what we consider poor America, in fact when I was around 8 years old we didn't have food and we found out that stores would throw packaged, wrapped day old food away. I would end up in the dumpster retrieving these items to eat.
I use this not as an "Oh-me" statement but it is part of my testimony and where God brought me from. Thank God for those difficult times, but even then that pales in comparison to what I've expereinced in the last 4 days. I will never be the same again.
Now let's fast-forward 32 years. I'm sitting in the Alvears humble home typing on a forum for someone who is bitter towards a missionary or missionaries that may have abused their position and may have robbed monies from the children of God, and in turn you and others like you have lumped all missionaries as selfish and self-satisyfing individuals. Let God sort it out. We have better things to do with our time, like win souls, either in America or abroad.
Please know the Alvears are not like this. As we traveled over the various terrains to get to different daughter works, the Alvears are there. The people at several of these remote village and farm churches are expecting 1 if not both of the Elder Alvears to be there (if they are not together then they have gone to seperate works for that evening). The love and compassion that the entire Alvear family has for Brazil comes through in the way they work with the people of Brazil. They have church every night of the week, every single week. The people, oh, the people that have been won love this family more than words can express.
As Elder Alvear and I traveled in Rio Largo, Maceio and other areas looking at the complete devestation of life there would be times I would see tears running down his face.
They love the people of Brazil and have GIVEN everything this world has to offer to sacrifice unlike anything I've seen before.
I do think Sis. Alvears post was mis-understood.
Owl, just curious since I haven't read this entire thread, but have you been on a Missions trip to an impoverished 3rd world country and seen undescribable poverty first hand? It's unlike anyting I've seen anywhere in America. Have you prayed for the Alvears, Foreign Missionaries or Home Missionaries lately for the Grace of God and for direction and protection?
It doesn't matter where the missionaries are, the real ones are there because of a burden that God placed on them.
God Bless,
Bro. Ballard
Sister Alvear
09-22-2010, 07:50 AM
Brazil is so vast...a country of great paradox...
Sister Alvear
09-22-2010, 07:53 AM
[QUOTE=timjoiner;965545][COLOR="Navy"]I hardly ever post but I would like to comment here.....
Most missionaries that I know are very capable business people. That is how we end up with structured organizations that we do. Sensible people don't mind investing into the Kingdom of God when they can see and hear about where their money is going.
The same people could be in North America with a great income....If you compare what they could have, as to what they retire with, we are talking peanuts.
If you think it is such a lap of luxury...we will move over and let you have at it.
I think that you are a "Bitter Bozo"...you certainly don't know Sis. Alvear to speak of her in the manner that you do.
Owl...You need a "Boot to your Hoot!"
He has a name you may know him, He did use his name on this forum but changed it to OWL...I don't know why...
Sister Alvear
09-22-2010, 08:11 AM
I personally have no ill feelings toward him or the other person that used to post here that posted on my facebook...we all see things through different eyes...
I took the "offence" posts off not because I was offended...lol...I differ with lots of people on many things but I do not want my sisters that read on facebook to read things that may be said to me...they were hurt many years ago...I try to protect them from everything that might even hurt them. Sorry if my reasons were misread....
Brother Epley and I disagree with the issue of women preachers and I considered him a great man of God. I disagree with Brother Blume about his veiws on the endtime but I have total respect for him. Sherri is a precious friend and we see some things different ...Brother Joiner that just wrote here...we have been blessed to preach for him, be in his home and churches in Belize we too see some things different BUT that does not make us see things alike and many of us express our veiws on forums...however my sisters seldom read the forums but read facebook everyday.
On this forum say whatever you wish to say to me BUT do post on my facebook anything that would hurt my sisters...
Sister Alvear
09-22-2010, 08:14 AM
I say with all sincerity I am the least capable missionary I know...why HE called me I do not know...I guess so that all will know IF anything is done it is HE that does it and NOT Janice Alvear or her imperfect family....
Sherri
09-22-2010, 04:20 PM
I personally have no ill feelings toward him or the other person that used to post here that posted on my facebook...we all see things through different eyes...
I took the "offence" posts off not because I was offended...lol...I differ with lots of people on many things but I do not want my sisters that read on facebook to read things that may be said to me...they were hurt many years ago...I try to protect them from everything that might even hurt them. Sorry if my reasons were misread....
Brother Epley and I disagree with the issue of women preachers and I considered him a great man of God. I disagree with Brother Blume about his veiws on the endtime but I have total respect for him. Sherri is a precious friend and we see some things different ...Brother Joiner that just wrote here...we have been blessed to preach for him, be in his home and churches in Belize we too see some things different BUT that does not make us see things alike and many of us express our veiws on forums...however my sisters seldom read the forums but read facebook everyday.
On this forum say whatever you wish to say to me BUT do post on my facebook anything that would hurt my sisters...I'm trying to bring you over to the conservative side, but I will put up with your liberalism for now.:ursofunny
Sister Alvear
09-22-2010, 07:11 PM
I'm trying to bring you over to the conservative side, but I will put up with your liberalism for now.:ursofunny
It is hard to be conservative when I have been liberal so long....have a little more patience....:thumbsup oh yea keep them Bible studies coming....I might put some ruffles on my sleeves....:toofunny
Sister Alvear
09-22-2010, 07:13 PM
oh what a service tonight...wow....The power of God was so strong...wish all my friends and enemies could have been there!
Sherri
09-22-2010, 09:34 PM
oh what a service tonight...wow....The power of God was so strong...wish all my friends and enemies could have been there!Ours too.........praying for the sick, people getting the Holy Ghost, prophecies going forth. It was awesome!
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