Do you feel at all responsible?

[Margies3]

One of the things that has been on the news a great deal this week has been several stories about young people (high school age) who committed suicide, supposedly because of the terrible way they were treated because they were homosexuals.

I've been thinking about this alot and wondering if we, as the church, might bear any of the responsibility in this? I do not think we are ENTIRELY the fault. But I've been thinking that we are so against homosexuality that maybe, just maybe, we've gone way overboard. I do believe that homosexuality is a sin and that God is terribly grieved at it. But I think that instead of loving the person while hating their sin, we've gone to the other extreme. Even if we don't way it, we act as if we hate the person because of their sin.

Many of these young people who are claiming to be gay are really just looking for attention and for someone to love them. Instead, we've taught OUR young people to be judgmental and hateful towards those who are hurting the most (those gay young persons).

What do you think? I know there will be some who will understand what I am saying as well as some who will completely MISunderstand. One of my big questions for those who "get it" is how do we change this? How do we go about teaching our own children to understand God's take on homosexuality while also teaching them that they have to hate the sin, but LOVE the sinner?

I really feel like we as a church are partially responsible for the choice that these young people have made to commit suicide. Instead of teaching our children to be-friend these others who so desperately need friends, we've taught them to make fun of them (by our examples, if by no other means).

[Truthseeker]

Fellowship(befriend) a homosexual is not something I would teach my kids.

[missourimary]

Yes, Margie. Hatred, and fear. And too often, these "gay" young people are not coming out-they have been labelled homosexual because they are different.

It isn't just the church though. It's the kids that make fun of little girls for holding hands or walking arm in arm, the "tough guy" play that makes boys think it's funny to hit or kick or touch each other wrongly (very common around my area now), the peer pressure that says you have to experience certain things by a certain age...

[missourimary]

Fellowship(befriend) a homosexual is not something I would teach my kids.

Seeking out fellowship from homosexuals is much different than avoiding and mocking anyone labelled by someone else as a homosexual, being friendly and kind to them, or labeling them as homosexuals and gossiping/slandering them because they're different. I wouldn't tell my kids they had to sit with them at lunch just because they were homosexual and we "should be nicer to them", but neither would I tell them they couldn't be friends with a young person who was homosexual or whom I suspected might be either because of rumors or "wimpiness" or whatever.

[Margies3]

Yes, Margie. Hatred, and fear. And too often, these "gay" young people are not coming out-they have been labelled homosexual because they are different.

It isn't just the church though. It's the kids that make fun of little girls for holding hands or walking arm in arm, the "tough guy" play that makes boys think it's funny to hit or kick or touch each other wrongly (very common around my area now), the peer pressure that says you have to experience certain things by a certain age...

You're right, Mary. I agree. It isn't just the church. But do you think that we should be teaching our children (and adults!) to be DIFFERENT than those others who make fun of people who are not the same as themselves?

Again, I am not saying that we need to become like them. Or agree with them at all. I think it is perfectly acceptable for us to speak with them about their sin - AFTER we have let them know clearly, by our actions, that we are doing that because we love their souls and not because we are judge and jury.

And if we cannot bring ourselves to care enough for their souls to be their friend in order to reach them for the Lord, then the least we should do is to NOT make fun of them and belittle them. It is that kind of behavior on our parts that makes me think, sadly, that we, as well as many many others in the world, have contributed to these young people and their suicide. I really believe that as Christians, we should be above that kind of behavior.

[Margies3]

Fellowship(befriend) a homosexual is not something I would teach my kids.

Why not? I'm curious. I'm not saying you should teach your kids to become LIKE them. But if we are to teach our children to love like JESUS loves, then why is being friends with a homosexual such a bad thing? You think that Jesus doesn't love them? of course he does. He doesn't love their sin, but he does love them.

[Truthseeker]

Seeking out fellowship from homosexuals is much different than avoiding and mocking anyone labelled by someone else as a homosexual, being friendly and kind to them, or labeling them as homosexuals and gossiping/slandering them because they're different. I wouldn't tell my kids they had to sit with them at lunch just because they were homosexual and we "should be nicer to them", but neither would I tell them they couldn't be friends with a young person who was homosexual or whom I suspected might be either because of rumors or "wimpiness" or whatever.

I agree we don't need to harass/slander them but neither to we have to be friends. We can be kind for the bible says be kind to all men, but being friends or running buddies is not an option. I have worked with homosexuals having alwsy treated them repectful. I would teach my kids to teach them treat with respect as far as being humans but befriending is not something I could go with.

[Truthseeker]

Why not? I'm curious. I'm not saying you should teach your kids to become LIKE them. But if we are to teach our children to love like JESUS loves, then why is being friends with a homosexual such a bad thing? You think that Jesus doesn't love them? of course he does. He doesn't love their sin, but he does love them.

Jesus loves child molesters too, yes. Am I gonna be buddy buddy with one, nope.

[Truthseeker]

You're right, Mary. I agree. It isn't just the church. But do you think that we should be teaching our children (and adults!) to be DIFFERENT than those others who make fun of people who are not the same as themselves?

Again, I am not saying that we need to become like them. Or agree with them at all. I think it is perfectly acceptable for us to speak with them about their sin - AFTER we have let them know clearly, by our actions, that we are doing that because we love their souls and not because we are judge and jury.

And if we cannot bring ourselves to care enough for their souls to be their friend in order to reach them for the Lord, then the least we should do is to NOT make fun of them and belittle them. It is that kind of behavior on our parts that makes me think, sadly, that we, as well as many many others in the world, have contributed to these young people and their suicide. I really believe that as Christians, we should be above that kind of behavior.

Titus 3:2

2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men
KJV

[Margies3]

Jesus loves child molesters too, yes. I'm gonna be buddy buddy with one, nope.

I think that's an entirely different thing. Child molesters are looking to target your children. The peer to your child who has declared themselves homosexual is most likely not interested in a physical relationship with your child.

[nahkoe]

I handle this exactly the same way I did when I was bisexual and in relationships.

I teach my children to respect *all* people. Period. I teach them to respect another person's right to believe what they want to believe. I teach them that the earth was always round, even when the majority of people believed it was flat. I teach them that in the same way, the truth about God never changes no matter what anyone believes.

Ok..so maybe I wasn't teaching the part about God and truth never changing when I was bi. :D

But I have always stressed respect. Now, I stress the love of God too. I stress that His love was big enough for Him to sit and eat with sinners, to seek them out, to fellowship with them, to heal them, to minister to them.

I don't think this current stuff is really a church caused problem. I don't think the preaching on love the sinner/hate the sin has helped, though. I think the issue is pretty much a people issue. You'll find those who isolate anyone different in every group, it's the isolation and idea that "our way is the only way" that causes problems. And that's definitely not exclusive to Christianity.

[Godsdrummer]

Haven't posted on this part of the forum yet but could not help it.

Love the person not the sin? How in the heck do you do that? Did Jesus love you that way before you came to him. He went to the cross for you when you were yet a sinner. He loved YOU THE SINNER before you came to him.

When God walked the earth he sought out the demon posesed, he went to the sinners house for dinner. And we say don't be friends with them? How else do you think you will see them come to God. We are Christ in the world today if you don't reach them no one else will.

Homosexality is a sin against themselves, and no one else they are not hurting anyone but themselves, and some say don't be friends with them? Yet murderes and rapist can walk among us and we could have them for dinnner and expose them to our children because we don't know that they are murderers or rapist until thier caught. How double standard can one get.

I love everyone regardless of who they are, till they do me wrong they are my friend and I treat them that way.

I have been friends with a gay/bisexual man for years, he even made the wedding dress for my daughter in/law in my sons wedding. I worked with a lezbian several years ago and we had her and her mate over for dinner. It is a sin just like everyother sin and we should treat them no different than anyone else that is a sinner.

[Truthseeker]

How would this come into play?

Eph 5:11-13
1 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
KJV

[nahkoe]

How would this come into play?

Eph 5:11-13
1 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
KJV

Don't sin. Don't court sin. Don't allow sin in your personal life to fester and grow. Expose it to yourself, to God, to those you're accountable to. Don't let the things you think and do stew in darkness, unexposed, to grow and destroy you from the inside out. Verses 1-10 are important context.

1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

This isn't talking to sinners, and it's not talking about fellowship with sinners, it's talking about fellowship with *sin*. Don't let it sit hidden in the shadows of your life to destroy you. Deal with it, live pure before God and those around you. That has nothing to do with having dinner with a homosexual. It's got everything to do with taking them to your bedroom after dinner.

[Margies3]

How would this come into play?

Eph 5:11-13
1 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
KJV
Maybe we should ask Jesus what he was doing when he ate with sinners then? You don't have to BECOME like them in order to be their friend. But I do think that we have to follow the example that Jesus set for us.


Don't sin. Don't court sin. Don't allow sin in your personal life to fester and grow. Expose it to yourself, to God, to those you're accountable to. Don't let the things you think and do stew in darkness, unexposed, to grow and destroy you from the inside out. Verses 1-10 are important context.

1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

This isn't talking to sinners, and it's not talking about fellowship with sinners, it's talking about fellowship with *sin*. Don't let it sit hidden in the shadows of your life to destroy you. Deal with it, live pure before God and those around you. That has nothing to do with having dinner with a homosexual. It's got everything to do with taking them to your bedroom after dinner.

Very good answer.

[Margies3]

Haven't posted on this part of the forum yet but could not help it.

Love the person not the sin? How in the heck do you do that? Did Jesus love you that way before you came to him. He went to the cross for you when you were yet a sinner. He loved YOU THE SINNER before you came to him.

When God walked the earth he sought out the demon posesed, he went to the sinners house for dinner. And we say don't be friends with them? How else do you think you will see them come to God. We are Christ in the world today if you don't reach them no one else will.

Homosexality is a sin against themselves, and no one else they are not hurting anyone but themselves, and some say don't be friends with them? Yet murderes and rapist can walk among us and we could have them for dinnner and expose them to our children because we don't know that they are murderers or rapist until thier caught. How double standard can one get.

I love everyone regardless of who they are, till they do me wrong they are my friend and I treat them that way.

I have been friends with a gay/bisexual man for years, he even made the wedding dress for my daughter in/law in my sons wedding. I worked with a lezbian several years ago and we had her and her mate over for dinner. It is a sin just like everyother sin and we should treat them no different than anyone else that is a sinner.

:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

[Margies3]

I don't think this current stuff is really a church caused problem. I don't think the preaching on love the sinner/hate the sin has helped, though. I think the issue is pretty much a people issue. You'll find those who isolate anyone different in every group, it's the isolation and idea that "our way is the only way" that causes problems. And that's definitely not exclusive to Christianity.

I agree. I don't think it is a church CAUSED problem. I think it is a society caused problem. But the church, if we're being honest, has been a part of the problem. I've rarely ever heard anyone preach against the SIN of homosexuality. I've heard alot of comments from the pulpits and from saints saying with disgust, "he (or she) is a homo" or "look at the way he walks. You just know what he is" or things to that effect. And then our kids hear that - and guess what they say!

I've always heard it said, "If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem." I'm not saying that we could save all of these kids. Maybe not even one of these kids. But I do think we should stop and take a minute to think about how we, as adults, handle our call from the Lord to love as HE loves and to act accordingly. Who knows? Maybe if just one of these kids had been able to find a friend in one of our kids, and then if that kid had been brought to just one of our homes where they could have been exposed to the love of God in just one family, MAYBE a life could have been saved. Who knows?

[nahkoe]

I agree. I don't think it is a church CAUSED problem. I think it is a society caused problem. But the church, if we're being honest, has been a part of the problem. I've rarely ever heard anyone preach against the SIN of homosexuality. I've heard alot of comments from the pulpits and from saints saying with disgust, "he (or she) is a homo" or "look at the way he walks. You just know what he is" or things to that effect. And then our kids hear that - and guess what they say!

I've always heard it said, "If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem." I'm not saying that we could save all of these kids. Maybe not even one of these kids. But I do think we should stop and take a minute to think about how we, as adults, handle our call from the Lord to love as HE loves and to act accordingly. Who knows? Maybe if just one of these kids had been able to find a friend in one of our kids, and then if that kid had been brought to just one of our homes where they could have been exposed to the love of God in just one family, MAYBE a life could have been saved. Who knows?

I don't disagree with you. I still don't admit anything about my past in real life*. It's too dangerous for me and for my children, and that's coming from a saved and set free position within the local church. I do think the church needs to get busy being the church and stop being the judge and jury. It's taken me awhile to come to a place where I don't just turn ugly when this topic comes up. I *know* how I've been treated by "christians" and the "church" and I know how much trouble that's caused me in approaching God and accepting that He really does love me. And that's where I think the church fails people.

At risk of giving away too much (hello flutecrafter...:P) I'm still struggling with this so, so, so much. I'm in a position where I have no real choice but to accept the kind of love that I see in the Bible. But I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop, the flip side, the "do this or else.." that I'm familiar with. Even knowing that this is what the Bible talks about, what God has told Christians to be like, and seeing it every day, I'm still very cautious because of all the past experiences I've had. It'd be a lot easier if I'd accept this at face value...instead of backing away from it over and over again and putting myself right back in a dark corner with God and everyone else way over there...

By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

*except to very select people

[Cindy]

Sin is it's own torment in our lives. Any sin, outside pressures just add to it. As Christians we are to love, period. Not pick and choose which sinner to love. Fellowship is easier with like minded people. And it starts early in our lives, as we are shaped by environment. Parents are the first models for our lives. Some good, some maybe not so good. But when we have Jesus in our hearts, we love people, and love them enough to want them to be saved.

[Truthseeker]

2 Cor 6:14-17

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
KJV

[Truthseeker]

Maybe I think of being a "friend" in different terms then some are using. I'm all for the showing love, kindness etc......

[nahkoe]

Maybe I think of being a "friend" in different terms then some are using. I'm all for the showing love, kindness etc......

Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34

[Truthseeker]

Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34

34The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Ok this is what someone was accusing him of. Was he a glutton? No Was he a winebibber? No. does answer change with third accusation?

[nahkoe]

34The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Ok this is what someone was accusing him of. What he a glutton? No Was he a winebibber? No. does answer change with third accusation?

Why was he being accused of these things?

[Truthseeker]

Maybe because he eat doesn't make him a glutton, because he drank doesn't make hima winebibber, because he was associated with sinners doesn't make him friends???


Besides, sinners didn't hang around long before converted or left.

[Timmy]

There's not much I can say here (legally :lol), but I think I can say this: those who think they should not associate with gays should not associate with gays. :winkgrin

[Cindy]

Maybe because if some associate with gay people, they are afraid they might be considered gay by association? Or as the old saying goes, you are known by the company you keep.

[Flutecrafter]

2 Cor 6:14-17

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
KJV

Ah yes, one of the favored passages that gets used to try to beat people
away from those that need their help.

It gets hurled at me periodically by those who say I should not be in
outreach to occultists and perhaps being friendly with them should
stop....
After all, associating with anyone but christians should be forbidden :blah

Luke 10
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

[Flutecrafter]

Maybe because he eat doesn't make him a glutton, because he drank doesn't make hima winebibber, because he was associated with sinners doesn't make him friends???


Besides, sinners didn't hang around long before converted or left.

Judas hung around for a few years.....

[Azzan]

You're right, Mary. I agree. It isn't just the church. But do you think that we should be teaching our children (and adults!) to be DIFFERENT than those others who make fun of people who are not the same as themselves?

Again, I am not saying that we need to become like them. Or agree with them at all. I think it is perfectly acceptable for us to speak with them about their sin - AFTER we have let them know clearly, by our actions, that we are doing that because we love their souls and not because we are judge and jury.

And if we cannot bring ourselves to care enough for their souls to be their friend in order to reach them for the Lord, then the least we should do is to NOT make fun of them and belittle them. It is that kind of behavior on our parts that makes me think, sadly, that we, as well as many many others in the world, have contributed to these young people and their suicide. I really believe that as Christians, we should be above that kind of behavior.


Excellent point. And a lot of gays would be okay with that approach.

[Adam]

A light illuminates a dark place. But, it is very annoying to stick a light in someone's face.

[Pro31:28]

What would happen if the sin that was in our heart; the gossip, hatred, ugliness, self-righteousness, and hypocrisy was written on our foreheads- we wouldn't be able to fellowship with anyone or even look in the mirror :/

We have two girls who have been coming to our youth group that have said they are bi-sexual. They sit on the back row, but they come. The other night I walked over to them and as I was walking up they looked nervous, they were completely surprised when I asked, "so do you prefer spaghetti or fettucini alfredo? (This is my normal first question to new youth that I don't know- it keeps em on their toes;))

I have two kids in the youth group, and I have encouraged them to get to know these girls. As long as we show the love of Christ and let Him do the work, then we can trust that He will.

[Azzan]

What would happen if the sin that was in our heart; the gossip, hatred, ugliness, self-righteousness, and hypocrisy was written on our foreheads- we wouldn't be able to fellowship with anyone or even look in the mirror :/

We have two girls who have been coming to our youth group that have said they are bi-sexual. They sit on the back row, but they come. The other night I walked over to them and as I was walking up they looked nervous, they were completely surprised when I asked, "so do you prefer spaghetti or fettucini alfredo? (This is my normal first question to new youth that I don't know- it keeps em on their toes;))

I have two kids in the youth group, and I have encouraged them to get to know these girls. As long as we show the love of Christ and let Him do the work, then we can trust that He will.



Awesome. I wish there were more of you. How did the conversation progress after your initial question?

[Pro31:28]

Awesome. I wish there were more of you. How did the conversation progress after your initial question?

One said fettuccini and the other said spaghetti, then we talked about how horrible school lunches were. They said they would be back Wednesday :bliss

[Timmy]

One said fettuccini and the other said spaghetti, then we talked about how horrible school lunches were. They said they would be back Wednesday :bliss

Hmmm. Did they choose whether to like fettuccine or spaghetti? :heeheehee

[Azzan]

hmmm. Did they choose whether to like fettuccine or spaghetti? :heeheehee

Now, now, Timmy.

[Azzan]

One said fettuccini and the other said spaghetti, then we talked about how horrible school lunches were. They said they would be back Wednesday :bliss

:thumbsup

[berkeley]

Good grief, Margie... blame the church because gay kids are killing themselves!!

[Charnock]

Really dumb thread.

[rgcraig]

Good grief, Margie... blame the church because gay kids are killing themselves!!

Why not - - it's our responsibility to reach out to them and tell them there's a better way.

[rgcraig]

Really dumb thread.

Why? If you were doing your job of telling them it's a sin and there's something better for their lives then maybe they'd be saved.

You can't have it both ways -- you either own up to your calling and how you feel about homosexuals and try to reach them or stop saying anything at all.

[berkeley]

Why not - - it's our responsibility to reach out to them and tell them there's a better way.

She's painting the church with a broad brush.

[Pro31:28]

Why is it that when an alcoholic husband comes to church for the first time after years of prayer by both the wife and the church, there is shouting and joy. But when the homosexual grandson of a parishoner shows up, everyone tells their kids to stay away? When the alcoholic husband has a bad night and gets drunk, and asks forgiveness; we put him on the prayer chain. But when the homosexual grandson falls backwards we say, see he was only here to infect our youth??

I have seen and heard this many times. When I was young it was fine to pray for my mom who was a binge drinker, but my uncle who was gay, i was told had committed the unpardonable sin, blasphemed God and had no hope of redemption.

[Charnock]

Gee, why does the devil need to attack the church?

[sandie]

Gee, why does the devil need to attack the church?

Why do you?

ha ha....lighten up. :razz

[sandie]

Why? If you were doing your job of telling them it's a sin and there's something better for their lives then maybe they'd be saved.

You can't have it both ways -- you either own up to your calling and how you feel about homosexuals and try to reach them or stop saying anything at all.

:thumbsup

[Timmy]

Why? If you were doing your job of telling them it's a sin and there's something better for their lives then maybe they'd be saved.

You can't have it both ways -- you either own up to your calling and how you feel about homosexuals and try to reach them or stop saying anything at all.

Actually, just telling them what they do is sin and there is something better for their lives almost never works.

[MissBrattified]

Margie, I'd say that I don't feel personally responsible because we have been very adamant with our kids about treating people with kindness no matter who or *what* they are. Our kids know what sin is, but knowing that someone is sinful doesn't give them leave to beat the sinner over the head with the truth.

And you know the kind of people who lead our church! :) There's no way PD/SD or KT/PT would ever endorse being rude or mean to someone because they're homosexual. It's simply not necessary to be mean in order to share the truth with people.

Furthermore, the types of situations in the news go beyond even basic mockery; they are acts of cruelty on the parts of ignorant, malicious young people, and IMO those perpetrators should be dealt with through the legal system. My personal theory is that bullies learn that kind of behavior at home.

[MissBrattified]

Good grief, Margie... blame the church because gay kids are killing themselves!!

I think it's a valid question, actually. I hope we aren't raising children in the church who are taught to treat homosexual sinners differently than adulterous sinners. I hope we aren't raising children who would have a cup of coffee with a chronic liar, but would look with disdain upon a lesbian.

What you create is a culture where mistreatment of a certain type of sinner is acceptable and even viewed as humorous.

WWJD? Not that, I'm pretty sure.

EVERY sinner needs a positive encounter with Christ. e.g., they need positive encounters with Christians. Positive influence does not equal acceptance of sin, no matter how some would love to twist it that way.

Berk,

Do you ever hear snide remarks, disdainful or disgusted comments or name calling from Christians about homosexuals? I do. I've known Apostolic children to use the "f_g" word, which is completely off limits as an obscenity as our home. Where do they learn that it's acceptable to use that kind of terminology? Mostly from their parents.

[berkeley]

Berk,

Do you ever hear snide remarks, disdainful or disgusted comments or name calling from Christians about homosexuals? I do. I've known Apostolic children to use the "f_g" word, which is completely off limits as an obscenity as our home. Where do they learn that it's acceptable to use that kind of terminology? Mostly from their parents.

No... only on AFF.

[Azzan]

I think it's a valid question, actually. I hope we aren't raising children in the church who are taught to treat homosexual sinners differently than adulterous sinners. I hope we aren't raising children who would have a cup of coffee with a chronic liar, but would look with disdain upon a lesbian.

What you create is a culture where mistreatment of a certain type of sinner is acceptable and even viewed as humorous.

WWJD? Not that, I'm pretty sure.

EVERY sinner needs a positive encounter with Christ. e.g., they need positive encounters with Christians. Positive influence does not equal acceptance of sin, no matter how some would love to twist it that way.

Berk,

Do you ever hear snide remarks, disdainful or disgusted comments or name calling from Christians about homosexuals? I do. I've known Apostolic children to use the "f_g" word, which is completely off limits as an obscenity as our home. Where do they learn that it's acceptable to use that kind of terminology? Mostly from their parents.

Personally, I've never been told to my face. But I am aware that while I was still attending church things were said behind my back on more than one occasion. My children, when they were preteens, were publicly taunted by their friends in the church. There was no way those children could have known unless their parents had told them.

[nahkoe]

Berk,

Do you ever hear snide remarks, disdainful or disgusted comments or name calling from Christians about homosexuals? I do. I've known Apostolic children to use the "f_g" word, which is completely off limits as an obscenity as our home. Where do they learn that it's acceptable to use that kind of terminology? Mostly from their parents.

I do. I hear it *all the time*. It's part of why I attended church for so long before I told anyone. It's part of why I left the UPC I attended at first.

[Margies3]

Margie, I'd say that I don't feel personally responsible because we have been very adamant with our kids about treating people with kindness no matter who or *what* they are. Our kids know what sin is, but knowing that someone is sinful doesn't give them leave to beat the sinner over the head with the truth.

And you know the kind of people who lead our church! :) There's no way PD/SD or KT/PT would ever endorse being rude or mean to someone because they're homosexual. It's simply not necessary to be mean in order to share the truth with people.

Furthermore, the types of situations in the news go beyond even basic mockery; they are acts of cruelty on the parts of ignorant, malicious young people, and IMO those perpetrators should be dealt with through the legal system. My personal theory is that bullies learn that kind of behavior at home.

Thanks for this, Miss Bratt. I agree. I don't feel PERSONALLY responsible. When I started this thread, it wasn't to point fingers or to make accusations. It was just so we could take a minute to challenge ourselves to make sure that we are behaving the way that we should. IF we were among those who "made-fun" or called names, then we should feel a sense of responsibility. If not, then it's no big deal.

On the other hand, is treating others with kindness and respect enough? SHOULD we be reaching out in friendship? I don't know the answer. I think every situation is probably different. But I do think that if God seemed to be opening a door for us to reach out in friendship to a person who is homosexual, but we refuse to do it, then yes, we do bare a portion of the blame. God has called us to be a LIGHT. I can be a friend without condoning the lifestyle. Shoot - I have friends who are "living together". They're still my friends, but they know I cannot condone that sin.

Anyhow, there's my ramblings for the night

(by the way, MissB, I think you have the best pastoral staff anyone could ever have!! Feel free to let them know I said that. LOL)

[MissBrattified]

Thanks for this, Miss Bratt. I agree. I don't feel PERSONALLY responsible. When I started this thread, it wasn't to point fingers or to make accusations. It was just so we could take a minute to challenge ourselves to make sure that we are behaving the way that we should. IF we were among those who "made-fun" or called names, then we should feel a sense of responsibility. If not, then it's no big deal.

On the other hand, is treating others with kindness and respect enough? SHOULD we be reaching out in friendship? I don't know the answer. I think every situation is probably different. But I do think that if God seemed to be opening a door for us to reach out in friendship to a person who is homosexual, but we refuse to do it, then yes, we do bare a portion of the blame. God has called us to be a LIGHT. I can be a friend without condoning the lifestyle. Shoot - I have friends who are "living together". They're still my friends, but they know I cannot condone that sin.

Anyhow, there's my ramblings for the night

(by the way, MissB, I think you have the best pastoral staff anyone could ever have!! Feel free to let them know I said that. LOL)

I agree; we need to check ourselves. It's a good point to bring up. :thumbsup