World Changers

[A.W. Bowman]

While I am doing this study on a different forum, I thought there might be some interest here.

Financial collapse, water/food quality and quantity, oil/energy shortage, natural disasters, terrorism (bio and nuclear), failure of the electrical network, etc.

Looming on the horizon are a number of natural and man-made events that have been foretold in the books of the Bible. Even as this article is being written, many of these events have already began unfolding over the world. Yet, with all of the catastrophic hype and doom and gloom forecasters, we do not hear much in the way of what we should expect and what attitude should Christians take toward all of the disasters that are already befalling us – and are yet ignored. The first thing to recognize and come to grips with is that the doom and gloom preachers (religious and speculator) have not even come close to what is happing right now, much less what will be coming along very soon.

There is an old Jewish saying, “If you keep saying things are going to get worse, long enough, you stand a good chance of becoming a prophet.”

From Daniel to Revelation, we have been told that as the day of the Lord approaches the entire earth will go through an ever increasing level of turmoil, not unlike the travails of a woman giving birth.

While the entire world has been experiencing the early stages of this world changing process, the western hemisphere has been relatively quiet. Of course, over the past hundred years there have been a few events, such as the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, a couple of major earthquakes in Alaska, California and even in the mid west. So, while the rest of the world is experience even greater volcanic eruptions, greater earthquakes, tsunami, and storms that produce great magnitudes of destruction. In addition, with the growing human population, the threat of one or more pandemic diseases grows more acute every year. All of these things are being reported throughout the world in greater number, frequency and magnitude of severity. Then there seems to be a growing awareness to the possibility of the earth being hit by large chunks of space debris, from old spacecraft with nuclear fuel onboard to large asteroids.

With the advent of there now being over six trillion people on the face of the earth, and growing ever more rapidly, it doesn’t take much of a physical event to create an horrendous toll in human death and suffering. Yet, in addition to all of these things, there is yet another, and possibility an even greater threat to mankind, and that is mankind itself.

The second major element in the end-time events are the actions of men. This can be seen throughout the world in the armed conflicts between different governments and between the general population and their governments. Then we also have minority groups, some with significant numbers, who are waging war around the world with anyone and everyone who disagrees with them and their agendas. We generally refer to these individuals and groups as ‘terrorist’.

What these people seek is to create uncertainty and fear within a population, by killing and maiming as many as possible without warning or regard to gender or age, for the purpose of extracting political, religious, and/or economic concessions. Their tools range from rocks, clubs, to guns and knives, to biological and (today, the threat of) nuclear weapons of mass destruction.

The effectiveness of the assault by people on a society is just as great and perhaps even greater than most natural disasters, mega volcano eruptions being an example. One such eruption could result in the extinction of perhaps half of the world’s human population, plants and animals, as have been recorded in our world history.

What are the elements of that both natural and man-made disasters have in common? While in undeveloped countries, the effects are about the same. Compared to the industrialized nations, notability in the West (Western Europe and the US, Canada, etc.), the effect will be small. In the industrialized nations, however, the results will be beyond comprehension.

Disrupted and polluted water supplies will kill many within a week.
Loss of food products will result in mass starvation.

Infrastructure will collapse. The highway system, rails, air travel will come to a halt because of a lack of fuel availability. The electrical system will fail because of fuel shortages and disrupted power grid overloads and general physical collapse. The international financial system will not only fail, it will cease to exist when any wide spread national electronic banking, record keeping, and information transfer fails. All financial (including investment) institutions are now all inter connected.

The majority of the world’s populations are centered in and around mega cities that are growing by thousands every week. A biological agent turned loose in the water supplies will wipe out millions in days. Food riots will kill, no one knows, how many.

The Bible informs us that we stand at the edge of a precipice when a third of the world’s water will become undrinkable. One third of the population will die. Today that figure stands at over two trillion people. Think about that number. One third of all plants, animals and fish will die. We are indeed living in interesting times. Because in the face of all of this, there is an ever increasing number of wars and rumor of war circulating around the nations of the world. Some wars are with other nations, and many wars are confined within the borders of individual nations. Then with all of this facing us, the nations of the world are still expending their attention on aligning themselves against just one people and one country, Israel, but again, this is especially so concerning the aligning of Israel’s Middle East neighbors.

The imminent fall off the current Egyptian government will result in a Muslim Brotherhood puppet government that will have the trappings of a democratic government. However, within one to three years that government will fall to the Islamic Clerics who will have taken over that government, and Israel will find another army posed on its southern borders. All of these events have already started taking place according to recorded scripture.

Birth pangs - increasing in frequency and intensity.

I'll be posting more on this subject later this week. However, with all of this - Jesus has given us a reason to hope - and a plan.

:grampa

[Digging4Truth]

Looking forward to it.

[Sister Alvear]

interesting....looking forward to reading more.

[Godsdrummer]

Art

You say from Daniel to Revelation these things are discribed, please provide scripture passages as I was raised with this teaching but have not been able to find the scripture passages that teach this in the context you are bringing out. What I mean is that it seems we read into these passeges more than what is there. Maybe I am missing something.

As for the day of the Lord comming, what greater sin could the world commit than crucifing the Lord of heaven, of which God brought judgment upon those people when he destroyed thier holy city Jerusalem in 70ad? During that time just the atrociaties that came upon those in Jerusalem during the 3and a half years of seige have been unparalled women eating thier own children, even bird poop was being eaten and desired as food.

[supertone]

Interesting read! Thanks.

Small note, in your post you're mentioning trillions of people, I think you mean billions. Cheers

[A.W. Bowman]

Interesting read! Thanks.

Small note, in your post you're mentioning trillions of people, I think you mean billions. Cheers
Good catch! In 2010 the world's population stood at 6.8 billion (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html)

[A.W. Bowman]

I thought I could simply post a follow up to my original post and be done with it. Wrong! I see at least two more posts need to be made. Yes, Loren, my friend, I’ll address your notes also.

But, first:
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In the first part of this short overview, I painted a rather dismal picture concerning both the natural and man made disasters what we might expect to see, and are even witnessing today. I also said that Jesus has given us a reason to hope - and a plan.

Well, as I continue to look upon these unfolding events and place them over the events as revealed in the Bible, in truth I do see neither an end nor an escape from the events that are bring about the return of our Lord and Savior. There is but one path that a person can take and that is ‘through’ the process.

It really makes little difference if one is a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post trib rapture believer. It make little to no difference if one is a preterits, partial preterist, or futurist in their eschatology. The events taking place around us, both ‘natural’ and manmade are either laid out in The Book, or they are not. There are men and women today who will testify to what is taking place all around us and there are those who do not see God’s hand in all that is taking place, according to His revealed purpose.

In many churches we have the clarion call for an ‘end time revival’. Most Western thinking Christian can at least sense that the time of the end is very close, but still refuse to acknowledge it in their lives. This can be observed in the lifestyles individual believers choose to maintain. Within the Holiness movement we see preachers trying to get folks into heaven by imposing strict rules of dress and behavior on the assembly – to earn one’s ticket on the heaven bound train. We have the love churches, where no one is excluded from salvation or from spiritual leadership, even those who openly practice immoral relationships. There are the spiritual churches, where every spirit is welcome, regardless of its origin. And other such like movements in the assemblies. And, it is getting worse, especially here within the Western churches. I cannot speak for the rest of the body of Christ that is scattered over the bulk of the world.

Matthew 24:3-31 paints a picture just as dismal as what I presented in my first post, even worse. It is a picture of both heroic perseverance, and a dismal falling away (2 Thessalonians 2), it is a picture of hard times for all of mankind, even the Saints (Revelation 13:7-9), for in that day the believers and the followers of Christ shall be sifted from the body of Christ, leaving only the true disciples and many of them shall die for the faith (Revelation 20:1-5, also see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

A short digression:

We must remember that the book of Revelation is a classic Hebrew apocalyptic book, where events are not presented in the linear time format that we Westerners are use to thinking in, but in a spiral time line that allows for identifying reoccurring and/or directly connected events outside of straight start to finish sequence of events. Another Hebraism is that technically Tanakh Hebrew has but two tenses, perfect and imperfect. Which is to say that things will happen or that they have already have happened.

In Hebrew prophecy we will find some future events are presented in the ‘past or future tense’, frequently translated into the ‘present tense’ or even in mixed tenses. An example would be Isaiah 9:6-7. For unto us a child is given (present tense) and the government will be … (future tense), giving the impression that the child was alive at the time of the writing of the prophecy, and the when he grows up he will take David’s place as king. From an English language/thinking world view, his would require the prophecy to be fulfilled within Isaiah’s generation. History witnesses to the fact that the Messiah did not, in fact, live during the time of Isaiah and he was not the next to ascend to David’s throne, it was Solomon, and David’s line of kings did not continue unbroken.

The ‘rapture’ (the caught up, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18), takes place after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, before the millennial reign of Christ on earth and before the resurrection of all of the others who did not die in Christ (Revelation 20:4-6). So, where is our hope and the plan of escape from the trials that are upon us?

---------------------------

While we are looking for the advertised end-time revival, God is also telling us that while many may come into fellowship with us, there will be all the more leaving our fellowship when the difficult times come upon the saints in its full force (Revelation 13:6-10). While the church has been undergoing a great persecution in the rest of the world, it has passed by mostly ignored by most Christians in Western Europe and the Americas. The opening shots of that war have been fired among us, but even now it goes mostly unacknowledged.

Christians and our Jewish brothers are being attacked, driven out of their homes and countries, imprisoned, tortured and killed for the sake of the gospel and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The number of believers that are being martyred every year reaches almost the entire number of martyrs counted from the first century on (see The New Foxe’s Book of Martyers). Yet, the predominant Western Christian thinking is that we shall escape the very thing that Jesus himself promised would be our lot (Matthew 13:20-21, Romans 8:35-39, Matthew 5:10-12, etc) should we choose to follow after Him and preserve to the end.

Today many still think that being a Christian is a good social thing to do. Or, it is sometimes viewed as an easy way of acquiring ‘fire insurance’ – ‘get out of hell free card’. Then, if the whole Jesus trip is just a story, it will not have cost me very much, just some time and a little money. If Jesus is authentic, however, then I will have a free pass to heaven, or, “If I just do enough religious things, hard enough, I’ll be acceptable unto God and I’ll make it in.” Another, more sinister approach is, “Look at what I (or, we) have done for the kingdom of God, in the authority of the name of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit!” None of these approaches will have any standing in the last day.

I’ll have to continue this a little later.

[Godsdrummer]

[QUOTE]I thought I could simply post a follow up to my original post and be done with it. Wrong! I see at least two more posts need to be made. Yes, Loren, my friend, I’ll address your notes also.

Art I am going to do something I don't usualy do, that is go down paragraph by paragraph. I realize you are going to address my questions but it seems you have in this post that I can respond to them.

In the first part of this short overview, I painted a rather dismal picture concerning both the natural and man made disasters what we might expect to see, and are even witnessing today. I also said that Jesus has given us a reason to hope - and a plan.

We christians sure like to paint, and the dismal the picture the better to scare others into the kingdom of God. Either we scare them with the thought of going to hell or the thought of missing a rapture and going through a judgment of God on the world.

Well, as I continue to look upon these unfolding events and place them over the events as revealed in the Bible, in truth I do see neither an end nor an escape from the events that are bring about the return of our Lord and Savior. There is but one path that a person can take and that is ‘through’ the process.

We continue to allow the meadia to make us think things are worse than they are. The word tell all that "love God will sufer persecution", We believe our politicians that have told us we are destroying the world, that the ice caps are going to melt, that there is a hole in our atomosphire, we put more care and time into saving animals than humans. In a world when we have the internet and can check things out with the touch of a button, we still allow the media to direct our vision the way they want too.

Where some see unfolding events I chose to see life as it always has been and will be. Where others look to a earthly kingdom where Christ is going to come fix everything and they don't have to do a thing. I chose to see the kingdom of God here right now and chose to live in such a manner that we can change the world to fit the kingdom of God more closely.

If one wants to go through the "process" of salvation, I will believe the promises of God word and accept the grace of God by faith as Abraham did and become a friend and son of God and accept who I am now instead of waiting for a litural earthly kingdom that is here already.

It really makes little difference if one is a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post trib rapture believer.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Is this the tribulation you are talking about? This happens right after the Christians are instructed to flee Jerusalem before the seige. During the three and a half years of the seige women ate thier own children, fought over pigeon poop to eat to name a few of the tribulations that came upon those that did not repent. As far as history goes search out the tribulation that came upon Jerusalem and compare it to anything else that has been done to manking or by mankind since then and tell me if anything worse can some upon the world.

Further this was a judgment brought upon "that generation", for commiting the greatest sin mankind has ever commited and ever will. And there is not one sin you and I can ever do that is greater that would bring any worse judgement on us then what those first century Jews did when they crucified the son of God and then did not repent.

It make little to no difference if one is a preterits, partial preterist, or futurist in their eschatology. The events taking place around us, both ‘natural’ and manmade are either laid out in The Book, or they are not. There are men and women today who will testify to what is taking place all around us and there are those who do not see God’s hand in all that is taking place, according to His revealed purpose.

Let me share with you a scripture God gave me yesterday,Jer 25:13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations.
Jer 25:14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

God promised here that he will recompense kings that serve themselves and against God, we have seen this happen over and over where nations have risen unto themselves and God has brought them down. Rome, Germany, Russia, to name just a few that come to mind right away. And If America does not restore her basis of being build on the principle of God she too will be brought down.

In many churches we have the clarion call for an ‘end time revival’. Most Western thinking Christian can at least sense that the time of the end is very close, but still refuse to acknowledge it in their lives. This can be observed in the lifestyles individual believers choose to maintain. Within the Holiness movement we see preachers trying to get folks into heaven by imposing strict rules of dress and behavior on the assembly – to earn one’s ticket on the heaven bound train. We have the love churches, where no one is excluded from salvation or from spiritual leadership, even those who openly practice immoral relationships. There are the spiritual churches, where every spirit is welcome, regardless of its origin. And other such like movements in the assemblies. And, it is getting worse, especially here within the Western churches. I cannot speak for the rest of the body of Christ that is scattered over the bulk of the world.

Again you paint a picture from a slanted point of view, the vast majority of mainstream Christian mega churches do not water down the word or principles of the word. When we listen to the media make such a big issue of churches that have allowed homosexuality into the pulpits, naming a organiziation that has been around long enough to become traditonal. We fail to see that they are a minority and that the majority of Christianity is still strong.

Matthew 24:3-31 paints a picture just as dismal as what I presented in my first post, even worse.

Matt writes of those events that would come to pass upon that generation, the destruction of the temple, the end of the age, and the sign of his comming in judgment to those of that generation for thier ungodly ways.

It is a picture of both heroic perseverance, and a dismal falling away (2 Thessalonians 2),

Just what is Paul talking about here in Thess. ? An aposticy or a departure? check it out.

It is a picture of hard times for all of mankind, even the Saints (Revelation 13:7-9), for in that day the believers and the followers of Christ shall be sifted from the body of Christ, leaving only the true disciples and many of them shall die for the faith (Revelation 20:1-5, also see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Has not this been happening for two thousand years? How we can look down through history and think we as Christians today will suffer worse than those that have already gone on before us ignores the love of God to his people.

Art I too will have to continue this at a later time.

[A.W. Bowman]

Excellent thoughts and comments - yes, please continue.

[Godsdrummer]

Excellent thoughts and comments - yes, please continue.

Hey thanks
As I read down through my post I realize that I have again come accross as condesending. My deepest apologies, that is not my intent, My intent is to try and get people to step outside the traditions that have become the message of our generation and back into the word with a deeper understanding of what the word is.

Again I will try and continue in the next couple of days.

[A.W. Bowman]

That is not a problem with me - my friend.

[Digging4Truth]

I'm still enjoying this thread Brother Bowman. I notice that our reaction to hearing that bad times are coming are framed by what we're going to lose. Recently a friend of mine had her cell phone go out. She has been in a complete frenzy and is losing her mind to not have her cell phone at her constant beck and call.

We have "fearful" reactions because we love this life and we love the conveniences of this world. That, in itself, should be a wake up call for us.

But that is why these types of changes bring great revival because when all our toys are taken away the world finds themselves suddenly congizant of just how empty our lives are without our daily conveniences and entertainments (myself included)

We find it easy to say... my life would be empty without God. Sometimes I wonder.

[A.W. Bowman]

Thanks D4T.

Yet, as I march further down this country lane, I am becoming even more uncomfortable. It is becoming more like walking down a dark alley in some large city.

I think I will have my final 'planned' installment ready this week. Even so, I think we will also have the opportunity to look at today's events from a different point of view from Godsdrummer. The sharing of such different perspectives are valuable, if one is to come to a settled decision on how they will accommodate particular biblical issues such as this one.

But, you have also brought up a very important aspect of our Western culture. The loss of our electronic toys, entertainment, and communication devices. Ninety nine percent of all of my personal communications and ministry activities are done over the Internet. When my computer goes down or the Internet connection fails, I go into free-fall! What is wrong with that picture?

/sigh/

[Godsdrummer]

Art greetings and God bless, to continue I will try and aproach this from a point of view that is not condesending. Looking at those verses you quoted in relation to what so many call the end time. I want to present a view that although seems to be from a completly different window is still a view of the same hillside. Some times we have looked through a narrow for so long that we have come to think that the world is only as big as that small part that we see.

I say this because those in Apostolic movements for the most part have thier eyes on such a small part of the word of God they refuse to see anything, or consider anything else as the word of God. They have a unique understanding of God, and his eternal power and divinity (oneness of the godhead) that they think that is all there is to the word. I have heard the phrase "we have the whole truth" all my life that until I was in my mid twenties studying things out on my own from a different point of view I began to see that we did not have all we thought we had.

With those thoughts in mind lets look at some more of the so called end time referances.

While we are looking for the advertised end-time revival, God is also telling us that while many may come into fellowship with us, there will be all the more leaving our fellowship when the difficult times come upon the saints in its full force (Revelation 13:6-10).

I don't understand why use Rev. 13 to note christians leaving the fellowship, further why refer to Christians falling away under persicution? All down through history when the kingdom of God goes through persecution it has always grown not gotten smaller. Let me give an example:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I have heard this passage used to preach an apostacy in "end times" all my life, but to my recolection it is the only one. And this should never be used in that context either. Let us first look at the word use by Paul that is translated "falling away". Is a word that means to depart, as in separate or divorce. In order for it to mean an defection from truth there must be adjetives leading up to the word. Paul is speaking words of encouragment in the beginning of this chapter "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. ". The way that he presents this is they know the day of the Lord is at hand (in thier life time) What was this day of the Lord?

Some comming day beyond thier life time? No these words were writen as encouragement to those Christians that were in Thesselonica that were going to hear of by letter or word of mouth or even the spirit of God. Of the grave destruction and happening that would come upon Jerusalem. So how is he encouraging them with the words there must come a departure first. And how will this strengthen and ecouraged the saints abroad that hear of thier bretheren in Jerusalem under seige for 3 and 1/2 years?

Because the departure was when Rome pulled thier armies back for a short period and all the Christians that were in Jerusalem having been forwarded by Christ fled the city and were saved.

Read the context of the scripture here, this does not refer to a time 2000 years in the future, Paul is not prophesing, he is repeating what has aready been propheced in incouragement to those saints in other parts of the world.

Let me ask you if you can put down everthing you have been told about OT prophecy that you have been told has not been fulfilled. Reading instead that the wording or words that we think have not been fulfilled are apocoliptic descriptions of the prophets as was the way they did things in those day. (much like todays preachers that strecth truth just a bit to make it more dramatic) You will see what God told the prophet he would do he did in those days!!! not carring anything down to the future.

With that thought in mind that when God pronounced judgment on a generation, if they did not directly repent he was true to his promise and that judgment came to pass within that generation. Why do we think God is going to change the way he did things for 4000 years. Did he not tell us in his word he gave us prophets in our day. (Epesians 4)

I am going to make a broad statement, "The bible is not a book of thou shalt nots on how to be saved, neither are there prophecies that pertain to us today, they are all history. What the bible is, a guide book to lead us back to relationship with God that was lost in the garden. With examples of those that failed to find that relationship and those that did. Finally it is filled with the promises to all that find that relationship."

When we realize our position and who we are in Christ and stop looking for Christ to come set up an earthly kingdom because we are to lazy to fulfill our calling as his kings and priest to the world. God will not do anything we have been given the ability to do our selves. And we have the abilty to bring peace to the world, we also have the ability to feed and take care of all those that have not food. But we don't even take care of our own in the church and our familys which is a primary commandment even before paying a pastor.

I think I have said enough today, sorry if I have offended anyone.

[A.W. Bowman]

While some of your comments may have caused a few to stop and consider your position, I don't think anyone took a great personal offense at your words.

There are a number of different understandings and positions of 'end-time' prophesy and events, and they should all be explored and tested.

[Godsdrummer]

While some of your comments may have caused a few to stop and consider your position, I don't think anyone took a great personal offense at your words.

There are a number of different understandings and positions of 'end-time' prophesy and events, and they should all be explored and tested.

Art as what you say is true, part of what I don't want to do is sound like I am the only one with the answers and no one else is right. Even thought I might think I am right I have been proven wrong before. Also I want to have the same spirit towards other that I want them to have towards me.

If we think we have all the answers then we cannot learn anything new. Trust me when I say when some one argues a point, even if it is the way I used to teach and preach it I open the word and look at things again from the perspectice they are comming from. I am either comfirmed im my heart of what God has shown me or I study more.

[Godsdrummer]

From Daniel to Revelation, we have been told that as the day of the Lord approaches the entire earth will go through an ever increasing level of turmoil, not unlike the travails of a woman giving birth.
I want to address something that come to mind as I read back through your first post. As I want to get back on track of your original thought.

While the entire world has been experiencing the early stages of this world changing process, the western hemisphere has been relatively quiet. Of course, over the past hundred years there have been a few events, such as the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, a couple of major earthquakes in Alaska, California and even in the mid west. So, while the rest of the world is experience even greater volcanic eruptions, greater earthquakes, tsunami, and storms that produce great magnitudes of destruction. In addition, with the growing human population, the threat of one or more pandemic diseases grows more acute every year.

It is my understanding that according to all futurist the end time are going to take place in 7 years. ( Daniels 70th week) in view of the smallness of the endtime how can we stand a say that the signs have been happening for several hundred years. Further driving my point home to say the rest of the world has been already experiencing this world changing process we have been quiet. Again does not follow the way things are to be according to scripture. World judgment is world judgment to happen all at once within the 7 year period of time futurist predict. One can't keep changing the time frame.

All of these things are being reported throughout the world in greater number, frequency and magnitude of severity. Then there seems to be a growing awareness to the possibility of the earth being hit by large chunks of space debris, from old spacecraft with nuclear fuel onboard to large asteroids.

Of course these are being reported with greater frequency, we have the internet, television, radio, cell phones, we also have news media that report and build up those events sensationaizing them more than they would be just a few years before.

The point is, this world is not any worse or better than it was 500 years ago. Just more people. It is all in perspective, the old saying viewing things from the perspective of the glass half full or half empty makes a big difference in the way things look. We are and have been viewing things from the perspective of a half full glass.

We preach and teach one must work for salvation to make it to heaven,Glass Half full, God saved us to have relationship with us in this body in this life, not the life to come.

[Sam]

...It is my understanding that according to all futurist the end time are going to take place in 7 years. ( Daniels 70th week) ...

Of course these are being reported with greater frequency, we have the internet, television, radio, cell phones, we also have news media that report and build up those events sensationaizing them more than they would be just a few years before. ....

just a couple of thoughts by one who is a dispensationalist, pre-tribber.

There are lots of things I don't know or understand about prophecy. People who are a lot better than I and who are a lot smarter than I disagree among themselves on stuff like this. I am not an expert and don't claim to be. I purposely do not spend much time studying this stuff. I had a pastor (F.E. Curts) who was considered a "Bible Teacher" many years ago and taught at conferences, etc. He had a book on the Tabernacle which many loved but I've heard him say that he would not put anything about prophecy into print because some times he changed his mind on it and did not have it out there in writing.

A friend of his, Bro. S. G. Norris of ABI infamy had put out a tract showing how Benito Mussolini was the Antichrist. After Mussolini was deposed and publicly dragged through the streets, Bro. Curts jokingly said, "Well, they just killed your Antichrist." Bro. Norris said, "I wish I had that tract back."

It is my understanding that the 7 years of tribulation or Daniel's 70th week is not all of the tribulation but just the last 7 years of it. We don't really know how much time passes between what we call the rapture and the beginning of the 7 year period.

What are usually called "signs" of the end or of the Second Coming of Jesus are not signs of the rapture. It is my opinion that nothing HAS to happen before the rapture. There are things like false Christs, wars, earth quakes, famines, etc. that have happened all along but will be of much larger proportion during the tribulation. And, yes, because of increased communication, those things may not be happening more now than ever before. It may be that we are just now aware of them or that the reporting methods have improved.

It is my opinion that stuff like preterism, or pre- mid- or post-trib, or rapture, or whether Jesus returned at Pentecost on May 28, AD 30, or if the world ended in AD 70, etc. should not divide us. There are much more important things that we agree on.

[A.W. Bowman]

This will be my last post for a while on this forum.

Since the thrust of the discussion has moved from the events of the day, to end-time theology, let me suggest an excellent reference article, THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF DANIEL (http://www.worldofthebible.com/Bible%20Studies/Daniel%27s%2070%20Weeks.pdf)

Ill, see ya kids over on my boards, should you make it there.

Shalom

Art

[BroMatt]

Art greetings and God bless, to continue I will try and aproach this from a point of view that is not condesending. Looking at those verses you quoted in relation to what so many call the end time. I want to present a view that although seems to be from a completly different window is still a view of the same hillside. Some times we have looked through a narrow for so long that we have come to think that the world is only as big as that small part that we see.

I say this because those in Apostolic movements for the most part have thier eyes on such a small part of the word of God they refuse to see anything, or consider anything else as the word of God. They have a unique understanding of God, and his eternal power and divinity (oneness of the godhead) that they think that is all there is to the word. I have heard the phrase "we have the whole truth" all my life that until I was in my mid twenties studying things out on my own from a different point of view I began to see that we did not have all we thought we had.

With those thoughts in mind lets look at some more of the so called end time referances.



I don't understand why use Rev. 13 to note christians leaving the fellowship, further why refer to Christians falling away under persicution? All down through history when the kingdom of God goes through persecution it has always grown not gotten smaller. Let me give an example:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I have heard this passage used to preach an apostacy in "end times" all my life, but to my recolection it is the only one. And this should never be used in that context either. Let us first look at the word use by Paul that is translated "falling away". Is a word that means to depart, as in separate or divorce. In order for it to mean an defection from truth there must be adjetives leading up to the word. Paul is speaking words of encouragment in the beginning of this chapter "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. ". The way that he presents this is they know the day of the Lord is at hand (in thier life time) What was this day of the Lord?

Some comming day beyond thier life time? No these words were writen as encouragement to those Christians that were in Thesselonica that were going to hear of by letter or word of mouth or even the spirit of God. Of the grave destruction and happening that would come upon Jerusalem. So how is he encouraging them with the words there must come a departure first. And how will this strengthen and ecouraged the saints abroad that hear of thier bretheren in Jerusalem under seige for 3 and 1/2 years?

Because the departure was when Rome pulled thier armies back for a short period and all the Christians that were in Jerusalem having been forwarded by Christ fled the city and were saved.

Read the context of the scripture here, this does not refer to a time 2000 years in the future, Paul is not prophesing, he is repeating what has aready been propheced in incouragement to those saints in other parts of the world.

Let me ask you if you can put down everthing you have been told about OT prophecy that you have been told has not been fulfilled. Reading instead that the wording or words that we think have not been fulfilled are apocoliptic descriptions of the prophets as was the way they did things in those day. (much like todays preachers that strecth truth just a bit to make it more dramatic) You will see what God told the prophet he would do he did in those days!!! not carring anything down to the future.

With that thought in mind that when God pronounced judgment on a generation, if they did not directly repent he was true to his promise and that judgment came to pass within that generation. Why do we think God is going to change the way he did things for 4000 years. Did he not tell us in his word he gave us prophets in our day. (Epesians 4)

I am going to make a broad statement, "The bible is not a book of thou shalt nots on how to be saved, neither are there prophecies that pertain to us today, they are all history. What the bible is, a guide book to lead us back to relationship with God that was lost in the garden. With examples of those that failed to find that relationship and those that did. Finally it is filled with the promises to all that find that relationship."

When we realize our position and who we are in Christ and stop looking for Christ to come set up an earthly kingdom because we are to lazy to fulfill our calling as his kings and priest to the world. God will not do anything we have been given the ability to do our selves. And we have the abilty to bring peace to the world, we also have the ability to feed and take care of all those that have not food. But we don't even take care of our own in the church and our familys which is a primary commandment even before paying a pastor.

I think I have said enough today, sorry if I have offended anyone.

Hi

You wrote ,"neither are there prophecies that pertain to us today, they are all history"

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Please explain how this prophecy is history or has already been completed.

[Godsdrummer]

This will be my last post for a while on this forum.

Since the thrust of the discussion has moved from the events of the day, to end-time theology, let me suggest an excellent reference article, THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF DANIEL (http://www.worldofthebible.com/Bible%20Studies/Daniel%27s%2070%20Weeks.pdf)

Ill, see ya kids over on my boards, should you make it there.

Shalom

Art

While one is reading one might take the time to also read "the 70th week of Daniel" by Larry Smith http://www.rightlydividingtheword.com

[Godsdrummer]

Hi

You wrote ,"neither are there prophecies that pertain to us today, they are all history"

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. .


Let me throw a question back at you, Do you see this as something that will be happen lituraly on this earth? Compare you ideas with Rev 21-22.
Please explain how this prophecy is history or has already been completed

[Godsdrummer]

Matt

There are a couple of things I have come to understand with clearity in my life. One was the divinity of God what most onensess call the oneness of the Godhead. The other is the understanding of what many call end time events. Starting in my late teens I strugeled with understanding end time, I knew in my heart there was an answer to all my questions. I read and studied till I was blue in the face and could not come to grips with end time prophecy as I was taught. I was pre-tib through and through. In my heart I knew I was missing something though. I came upon by chance a study that showed all Daniels 70 weeks being fulfilled with the time of Christ. This was the first time I had ever heard this in 40+ years of my life. I reasoned this could not be true why had I not seen this before if it was true. I spent two to three years in study. I have the book "Of things to come" by Dwight Pentecost, I have had this book over 10 years and never even opened it. I literaly read through this book then went back over it several times comparing the various different teachings on end time. With all the arguments one way to the other I came to understand that, for myself at least Daniels 70 weeks could be infact fulfilled at the time of Christ.

I realized that if this were true then that would change the way I saw everthing. The eye opener, I could see all the scriptures I struggled with over the years fall into place in history. On top of that not only did God confirm this in my spirit, but over the last few years God has confirmed this in discution with others. This is not an understanding that comes over night for most as they have been so indoctrinated just as I had in the teachings of man.

The bottom line trying to get back to Arts original thought yes if the world has become worse it is our won fault as we have the power to bring change to our world. It is not as much as Gods judgment to all mankind as it is God's jugdment to our nation for turning from him and to our own self.

[BroMatt]

Let me throw a question back at you, Do you see this as something that will be happen lituraly on this earth? Compare you ideas with Rev 21-22.
Please explain how this prophecy is history or has already been completed

I am not saying this prophecy is history or already has been completed, it has NOT been completed nor is it history.

Yes, the lion WILL indeed lay down beside the lamb, on the earth, as this prophecy clearly states

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

[BroMatt]

Matt

There are a couple of things I have come to understand with clearity in my life. One was the divinity of God what most onensess call the oneness of the Godhead. The other is the understanding of what many call end time events. Starting in my late teens I strugeled with understanding end time, I knew in my heart there was an answer to all my questions. I read and studied till I was blue in the face and could not come to grips with end time prophecy as I was taught. I was pre-tib through and through. In my heart I knew I was missing something though. I came upon by chance a study that showed all Daniels 70 weeks being fulfilled with the time of Christ. This was the first time I had ever heard this in 40+ years of my life. I reasoned this could not be true why had I not seen this before if it was true. I spent two to three years in study. I have the book "Of things to come" by Dwight Pentecost, I have had this book over 10 years and never even opened it. I literaly read through this book then went back over it several times comparing the various different teachings on end time. With all the arguments one way to the other I came to understand that, for myself at least Daniels 70 weeks could be infact fulfilled at the time of Christ.

I realized that if this were true then that would change the way I saw everthing. The eye opener, I could see all the scriptures I struggled with over the years fall into place in history. On top of that not only did God confirm this in my spirit, but over the last few years God has confirmed this in discution with others. This is not an understanding that comes over night for most as they have been so indoctrinated just as I had in the teachings of man.

The bottom line trying to get back to Arts original thought yes if the world has become worse it is our won fault as we have the power to bring change to our world. It is not as much as Gods judgment to all mankind as it is God's jugdment to our nation for turning from him and to our own self.

"for myself at least"

Here is the problem with your pushing all prophecy into completion and into history....it is NOT according to scripture.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

As long as there is ANY future event spoken of by God that has not yet taken place, there remains yet prophecy to be fulfilled. A serious error was addressed because some had their faith overthrown with the claim that the resurrection was past. Since the resurrection is prophecied and has not yet happened, it is neither completed nor history.

2 Timothy 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some

2000 years ago the Roman government was crucifying thousands, the Roman baths were naked and coed, and the guy on the throne was claiming he was god. The "world is worse" certainly depends on what frame of reference is used. Youtube has many tasteless videos, but thousands of videos of wonderful worship music and many great sermons being preached.

In many places, praise, worship, and prayer are going on 24/7, 365 days a year, and the bible is the best selling book in the world, and has been for a very long time.

"so indoctrinated just as I had in the teachings of man."

Dwight Pentecost is a man, and his book is his teachings, which it would appear you are indoctrinated in.

[Godsdrummer]

"for myself at least"

Here is the problem with your pushing all prophecy into completion and into history....it is NOT according to scripture.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

As long as there is ANY future event spoken of by God that has not yet taken place, there remains yet prophecy to be fulfilled. A serious error was addressed because some had their faith overthrown with the claim that the resurrection was past. Since the resurrection is prophecied and has not yet happened, it is neither completed nor history.

2 Timothy 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some

2000 years ago the Roman government was crucifying thousands, the Roman baths were naked and coed, and the guy on the throne was claiming he was god. The "world is worse" certainly depends on what frame of reference is used. Youtube has many tasteless videos, but thousands of videos of wonderful worship music and many great sermons being preached.

In many places, praise, worship, and prayer are going on 24/7, 365 days a year, and the bible is the best selling book in the world, and has been for a very long time.

"so indoctrinated just as I had in the teachings of man."

Dwight Pentecost is a man, and his book is his teachings, which it would appear you are indoctrinated in.

I can tell by your oneside statements that you haven't got a clue. Don't mean to be mean spirited, but if you did you would take a little time to research what I said. Dwight Pentecost "Of things to come" was not one mans teaching of one subject it is a camparison of all teachings leaving the reader to come to his own conclusions. In most parts.

As for prophecy being or not being fulfilled. Not using the language of OT prophecy to interpret NT prophecy is putting your own interpretation to the word. Adding to and taking away as you see fit.

And you forget the passages you refer to were written before 70ad.

[BroMatt]

I can tell by your oneside statements that you haven't got a clue. Don't mean to be mean spirited, but if you did you would take a little time to research what I said. Dwight Pentecost "Of things to come" was not one mans teaching of one subject it is a camparison of all teachings leaving the reader to come to his own conclusions. In most parts.

As for prophecy being or not being fulfilled. Not using the language of OT prophecy to interpret NT prophecy is putting your own interpretation to the word. Adding to and taking away as you see fit.

And you forget the passages you refer to were written before 70ad.

Maybe I don't have a clue, as you declare, but I am not the one that is placing prophecy into history and having been completed either.

Here is what I have learned over the past 35 years of reading the bible, many people make general statements that are just plain trash, and when you disagree with them and require scriptural references to establish truth, they attack your character by calling you lazy (take a little time to research), clueless (you haven't got a clue), forgetful (you forget the passages you refer to), and all the while being mean spirited while declaring that they don't mean to be mean spirited.

You have every right to come to your own conclusions (leaving the reader to come to his own conclusions) HOWEVER, mistaking your conclusions for truth is not something I wish to be a part of with you. You may indeed feel you have come to a great revelation and all the prophecy scriptures that troubled you are now dismissable due to your revelation, however I am not of the same mind.

Also, I have no idea what the following is supposed to mean, therefore validating your declaration that I don't have a clue...

As for prophecy being or not being fulfilled. Not using the language of OT prophecy to interpret NT prophecy is putting your own interpretation to the word. Adding to and taking away as you see fit.

[Godsdrummer]

I think that the following statment is self explainitory.

As for prophecy being or not being fulfilled. Not using the language of OT prophecy to interpret NT prophecy is putting your own interpretation to the word. Adding to and taking away as you see fit

But just for your sake let me try and make it more clear. Bible must be interpreted by bible. Understanding prophecy must be understood by comparing prophecy that has already come to pass. By studing the language use in OT we come to understand when symbolism is used and to read what is litural and what is symbolic or apocolyptic. As for the phrase "his holy mountain" does not speak of an earthly mountain but the heavenly kingdom or heaven and yes in heaven the wolf lays down with the lamb.

sa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.


As you quote from Rev. 1 put all things together. Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

[Jay]

I remember the late Bro. Westburg (former KS district Superintendent) once saying that he could not tell you what the little toe on the left foot of the statue in Daniel meant. The quote is as close as I can recall as I was only about 14 when it was said. I know that I have it fairly close.

I do not believe that any particular view of the coming of the Lord should be held to with such unfailing tenacity that we are distracted from our mission of reaching a lost and dying world for Jesus Christ. He is coming again just as He promised, and I want to be ready to meet Him, not matter when or where that time might occur. As one person once said, I might not get to see the rapture for He may call me home tonight.

[Godsdrummer]

I remember the late Bro. Westburg (former KS district Superintendent) once saying that he could not tell you what the little toe on the left foot of the statue in Daniel meant. The quote is as close as I can recall as I was only about 14 when it was said. I know that I have it fairly close.

I do not believe that any particular view of the coming of the Lord should be held to with such unfailing tenacity that we are distracted from our mission of reaching a lost and dying world for Jesus Christ. He is coming again just as He promised, and I want to be ready to meet Him, not matter when or where that time might occur. As one person once said, I might not get to see the rapture for He may call me home tonight.

Just a couple of thoughts in relation to particular views, one end time dispinsationalist teachings generate fear to cause people to get saved. Fear is not a good bases of salvation. 2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

On another front, Dispinsational teaching, teaches that man life on earth is aproxemently 8 thousand years. 5 thousand years to the time of Christ, 2thousand years to the end time with a thousand years millinial reign. From this point of view dispinsationalist must change thier teaching as they have run out of time. As they have changed thier teaching over the last 40 years. After so many times of crying wolf this line of reasoning will no longer hold any weight as people will stop listening.

[Sam]

...On another front, Dispinsational teaching, teaches that man life on earth is aproxemently 8 thousand years. 5 thousand years to the time of Christ, 2thousand years to the end time with a thousand years millinial reign. From this point of view dispinsationalist must change thier teaching as they have run out of time. As they have changed thier teaching over the last 40 years. After so many times of crying wolf this line of reasoning will no longer hold any weight as people will stop listening.

Actually, Bro. S.G. Norris and Bishop G.T. Haywood taught that each "day of creation" was 7000 years and we are living in the 6th day or man's day. My pastor, F.E. Curts, taught that also. This was broken down to 4000 years from Adam to Christ; 2000 years from the birth of Christ to the second coming of Christ to the earth; and 1000 years of God's Kingdom rule on earth known as the millennium. All three of these men are dead now. I remember talking with my wife years ago about this and saying, "Well, if Jesus doesn't come to rapture us before then, we will most likely be around when the year 2000 comes and we'll see how accurate this teaching is."

[Godsdrummer]

Actually, Bro. S.G. Norris and Bishop G.T. Haywood taught that each "day of creation" was 7000 years and we are living in the 6th day or man's day. My pastor, F.E. Curts, taught that also. This was broken down to 4000 years from Adam to Christ; 2000 years from the birth of Christ to the second coming of Christ to the earth; and 1000 years of God's Kingdom rule on earth known as the millennium. All three of these men are dead now. I remember talking with my wife years ago about this and saying, "Well, if Jesus doesn't come to rapture us before then, we will most likely be around when the year 2000 comes and we'll see how accurate this teaching is."

Sam I was taught that too only with one differance that each days of creation was 1000 years bringing a total of 7000 years. From Adam to the silent years was 3500 years bringing the time to 4000 years at the time of Christ. (I mistated the time frame) in my last post. Still the message is the same we have past 2000 years bringing us to the time of the millennial reign if the teaching of dispisational teaching is right. What can we do? I just read a study on the subject of first fruits. Concerning the resurection and how Jesus and the saints that were resurected after Christ were the first fruits of the resurection. And how we no longer will see a physical resurection as Christ resurected the rest of the dead at his comming in 70ad and now we which are alive and remain will be caught up to meet him when we leave this life. It was an interesting study, of course as I see things from this point of view it only strengthens my thoughts.

[riverslivnwtr]

Art

You say from Daniel to Revelation these things are discribed, please provide scripture passages as I was raised with this teaching but have not been able to find the scripture passages that teach this in the context you are bringing out. What I mean is that it seems we read into these passeges more than what is there. Maybe I am missing something.

As for the day of the Lord comming, what greater sin could the world commit than crucifing the Lord of heaven, of which God brought judgment upon those people when he destroyed thier holy city Jerusalem in 70ad? During that time just the atrociaties that came upon those in Jerusalem during the 3and a half years of seige have been unparalled women eating thier own children, even bird poop was being eaten and desired as food.

the sin of all mankind put Jesus on the cross. The Jews served as the high priests, and offered Jesus , the lamb without spot or blemish ; ..then followed the abomination.. the Jews left the city their job was done..of course they didn't see it that way..They returned to draw all nations there ...it's really going to be a happy ending..:heeheehee

[Godsdrummer]

the sin of all mankind put Jesus on the cross.

Not necessaraly true, God lay down his life for us. 1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

The Jews served as the high priests, and offered Jesus , the lamb without spot or blemish ;

Yes and Jesus warned them what was going to come to those that did this deed. Matt. 23-24 should they not repent. Not one of those that accepted the new birth were lost when Jerusalem fell only those that had not repented.

..then followed the abomination.. the Jews left the city their job was done..of course they didn't see it that way..

Actualy it was not the Jews that left their city only the children of Abraham (the Christians) The Jews those of the natural seed that did not accept the gospel and repent while given a full generation to were destroyed with thier city.

They returned to draw all nations there ...it's really going to be a happy ending..

Who returned the children of Satan those seed that Christ called hipocrites in his day? Paul tells us that the seed of Abraham are those that accept the gospel of Christ. Those that are Jews by birth are just that any more, just another nationality. And if they do not receive the gospel because we have the frame of mind that God will come and save them in the end, God will hold thier blood on our hands for not reaching out to them. they must come to God the same way as any one else.

I ask this question, in what way would the Jewish nation show God that they have returned to him? By building a new Temple? and offering up blood sacrifices?

God will never dwell in temples made by hands again, further why would he accept a blood sacrifice that could not, even when it was required, pay the price for sin. Especicaly in the face of the price he paid for our sin when he laid down his life for our sin? Is not that spitting in the face of God?

[riverslivnwtr]

Not necessaraly true, God lay down his life for us. 1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.



Yes and Jesus warned them what was going to come to those that did this deed. Matt. 23-24 should they not repent. Not one of those that accepted the new birth were lost when Jerusalem fell only those that had not repented.



Actualy it was not the Jews that left their city only the children of Abraham (the Christians) The Jews those of the natural seed that did not accept the gospel and repent while given a full generation to were destroyed with thier city.



Who returned the children of Satan those seed that Christ called hipocrites in his day? Paul tells us that the seed of Abraham are those that accept the gospel of Christ. Those that are Jews by birth are just that any more, just another nationality. And if they do not receive the gospel because we have the frame of mind that God will come and save them in the end, God will hold thier blood on our hands for not reaching out to them. they must come to God the same way as any one else.

I ask this question, in what way would the Jewish nation show God that they have returned to him? By building a new Temple? and offering up blood sacrifices?

God will never dwell in temples made by hands again, further why would he accept a blood sacrifice that could not, even when it was required, pay the price for sin. Especicaly in the face of the price he paid for our sin when he laid down his life for our sin? Is not that spitting in the face of God?

Are you saying all the Jews died in the city were killed? Then who were they who were scattered into what is described as the Disporia..

Well, considering how they have had their literal and symbolic heads battered by that which was supposed to be called Christian...it's a wonder anytime any of them accept Jesus..but if you want to see them on the Jesus train, then turn their enemies first , the Muslims...
I mean just when the Jews thought they were gonna have a little peace from the Christuns, then the Muslims start to act up soon as they resettle in what was called palestine..but is the land of israel..:heeheehee

now they are in for a real fight if Iran does not fall to Christianity..:pillowfight:boxing