The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism

[Socialite]

To some, the idea of a Final Judgement seems unreasonable. This is where the idea of universalism surfaces. Some contend that those who in this life reject the offer of salvation will, after their death and Christ's second coming, be sobered by their situation and will therefore be reconciled to Christ.

While I won't pretend this is an easy matter to resolve (certainly a couple passages appears contradictory), but I believe we can understand them better in light of all scriptures on that subject. It's never good to form a doctrine on ambiguity.

Contradictory Scriptures?
Phil 2:10-11 "At the name of Jesus every knee (shall) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Col 1:19-20 "In Christ all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

More verses used: Romans 5:18; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22.

To be continued...

[Socialite]

Other scriptures seem to contradict the idea of Universalism though:

Mt 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Also: Mt 8:12, John 3:16, 5:28-29; Romans 2:5; 2 Thess 1:9

Can these apparent contradictions be reconciled (that is the question)? Millard Erickson, says, "A fruitful endeavor here it to interpret the universalistic passages in such a way as to fit with the restrictive ones." So, for example, Phil 2:10-11 and Col 1:19-20 do not say that all will be saved and restored to fellowship with God. They speak only of setting right the disrupted order of the universe, the bringing of all things into the subjection to God. But this could be achieved by forcing the rebels into reluctant submission; it does not necessarily point to an actual return to fellowship.

To give some slack to this post, I will skip over commentary on the other verses for now. I am happy to deal with them though (the universal effect of Adam's sin vs. how that applies to the universal dimension of Christ's work - Rom 5:18 for example). Most of this just requires us to read the preceding and proceeding verses. For example, Romans 5:17 says that "those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ." The term "many," rather than "all" is used in verses 15 and 19 --- same restrictive use in 1 Cor 15:22.

Continued...

[Socialite]

Eternal Punishment

Not only is the future judgment of unbelievers irreversible, but their punishment is eternal. Annihilationism attempts to refute this, but the biblical evidence is staggering. It contradicts both OT and NT references to the "unending" or "unquenchable" fire. Jesus borrows the imagery of Isa 66:24: "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Other words are used to reinforce this too:
"Everlasting" "eternal" "forever"

all applied to nouns designating the future state of the wicked: fire or burning (Isa 33:14, Jer 17:4, Mt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

[Socialite]

But the question is asked...

What kind of God is it who is not satisfied by a finite punishment, but makes humans suffer for ever and ever? The punishment seems out of proportion to the sin, for presumably all sins are finite acts against God. How does one square a belief in a good, just and loving God with eternal punishment? I think these are good questions as they reference the very character and nature of God....

We should know that when we sin, an infinite factor is involved. All sin is an offense against God, the raising of a finite will against an infinite God. It is failure to carry out one's obligation to him to whom everything is due. So sin cannot be considered just a finite act deserving finite punishment.

God does not send anyone to hell. He desired that none should perish (2 Pet 3:9). It is the choice of humans to experience the agony of hell. Their sin sends them there, and their rejection of the benefit of Christ's death prevents their escape. They've resisted the protective cover of His body.

C.S Lewis: "It's like saying, 'Go away and leave me alone.'" Hell is saying back, "You may have your wish." It is God leaving one to oneself, as they've chosen, despite the pain it brings him.

[Socialite]

Implications:

1) Decisions we make in this life will govern our future condition not merely for a period of time, but for all eternity. This should sober us.

2) Conditions of this life are transit in nature -- they fade into significance when compared to eternity.

3) The nature of future estates is far more intense than anything known in this life. Images, dreams, imaginations... all are inadequate. The joy we will have there far transcends how we even relate to the idea of joy here.

4) Hell is not so much a torture chamber of physical suffering, as it is an intense and awful loneliness of total and final separation from the Lord.

The judgement of God is severe and serious. He sent His own Son, wrapped Himself in flesh to bear that judgment. This was a job he had to do himself. He absorbed the penalty, made an escape route and simply asked us to get back into covenant with Him by believing. He even said we wouldn't go back to tit-for-tat, being condemned by our own records, but that we would be seen in Him.

The eternal punishment was so severe, He had to come establish a way out.

This is the heart of the Gospel. It's HOPE! There's a way out! But this also means, denying, refusing or rejecting that way out is an eternal decision.

[Socialite]

For God to Universally save everyone, there is no Gospel, no Mission, no Church, no Pentecost. If he "willed" it to be done, it would be done. No plan, no good news --- the reality is.... it's like saying can he create a rock too heavy to lift... he can't. He made us to have a choice. He's made it hard to refuse. He's made it difficult to turn down. He's drowned us in a sea of Grace when he shows up, but it can still be refused. It's the very nature and law of His own creation. It's that vulnerable flaw that gives it beauty --- life, instead of plastic reproduction.

But He's done all the work. He just asks us to rest, trust and believe in Him. Not a bad deal :)

[Socialite]

:haloplug CREDIT: A good chunk of this post was abbreviated, paraphrased and sometimes verbatim old notes from aTheology II class I once took --- Instructor was Prof. Crosby. Textbook was "Christian Doctrine" by Millard Erickson.

[Praxeas]

Contradictory Scriptures?
Phil 2:10-11 "At the name of Jesus every knee (shall) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Col 1:19-20 "In Christ all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

More verses used: Romans 5:18; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22.

To be continued...
That "every knee will bow" does not equate "every heart will be saved". Also this is like me saying "Hey, are you coming to the party? Everyone will be there"..does not mean every one from every nation that ever lived and died or will be born and die will be there

Other verses speak on the purpose of what He did. Yet in context we often see a condition

Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

[Truthseeker]

There are hard questions that seem difficult ot reconcile such as why burn sinners forever when one has no choice but be a sinner.

[Socialite]

There are hard questions that seem difficult ot reconcile such as why burn sinners forever when one has no choice but be a sinner.

Actually, TS, they are offered a way out through Jesus.

Read the post again -- God does not torture sinners forever, they are condemned and judged by their own actions, and God's own character, Justice. But He loved them enough to not only come up with a way out, but came Himself to be that Way out.

[Socialite]

That "every knee will bow" does not equate "every heart will be saved". Also this is like me saying "Hey, are you coming to the party? Everyone will be there"..does not mean every one from every nation that ever lived and died or will be born and die will be there

Other verses speak on the purpose of what He did. Yet in context we often see a condition

Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Good stuff, Prax.

Even though this is part of a standard letter greeting/introduction, it has good theological points in it.

And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind,(BA) doing evil deeds, 22he has now reconciled(BB) in his body of flesh by his death,(BC) in order to present you holy and blameless and(BD) above reproach before him, 23(BE) if indeed you continue in the faith,(BF) stable and steadfast, not shifting from(BG) the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed(BH) in all creation[g] under heaven,(BI) and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

[Ferd]

where is Crackjack?

[Cindy]

Actually, TS, they are offered a way out through Jesus.

Read the post again -- God does not torture sinners forever, they are condemned and judged by their own actions, and God's own character, Justice. But He loved them enough to not only come up with a way out, but came Himself to be that Way out.

:thumbsup

[Truthseeker]

Actually, TS, they are offered a way out through Jesus.

Read the post again -- God does not torture sinners forever, they are condemned and judged by their own actions, and God's own character, Justice. But He loved them enough to not only come up with a way out, but came Himself to be that Way out.

If there is a burning hell then God does torture sinners.

If I got it right yopu believe hell is just a seperation from God? not an actual physical punishment?

[crakjak]

For God to Universally save everyone, there is no Gospel, no Mission, no Church, no Pentecost. If he "willed" it to be done, it would be done. No plan, no good news --- the reality is.... it's like saying can he create a rock too heavy to lift... he can't. He made us to have a choice. He's made it hard to refuse. He's made it difficult to turn down. He's drowned us in a sea of Grace when he shows up, but it can still be refused. It's the very nature and law of His own creation. It's that vulnerable flaw that gives it beauty --- life, instead of plastic reproduction.

But He's done all the work. He just asks us to rest, trust and believe in Him. Not a bad deal :)

The above view of God, is a god that is confused and impotent toward his creation, powerless to complete what he began. Why? because he failed to take in to account the power of Satan and the ALL POWERFUL WILL of those that he created.

This is not the God of the Bible, it is a god created in the image of his creation, by men who make excuses for the failure of the this wimpy creator.

BUT JESUS CHRIST THE TRUE GOD OF THE BIBLE, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, TO THE RESCUE!!!!

"...FEAR NOT FOR I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD...!

[Socialite]

The above view of God, is a god that is confused and impotent toward his creation, powerless to complete what he began. Why? because he failed to take in to account the power of Satan and the ALL POWERFUL WILL of those that he created.

This is not the God of the Bible, it is a god created in the image of his creation, by men who make excuses for the failure of the this wimpy creator.

BUT JESUS CHRIST THE TRUE GOD OF THE BIBLE, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, TO THE RESCUE!!!!

"...FEAR NOT FOR I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD...!

A confused and powerless God? If he didn't respect our own will, there would have never been a fall to begin with. Let's keep it in perspective.

He didn't fail, He won. And he's offered a way out through Him... through Him... through Him... that is the Gospel!!

What are you reading, Crak?

Empty rhetoric, my friend, empty rhetoric.

[Truthseeker]

A confused and powerless God? If he didn't respect our own will, there would have never been a fall to begin with. Let's keep it in perspective.

He didn't fail, He won. And he's offered a way out through Him... through Him... through Him... that is the Gospel!!

What are you reading, Crak?

Empty rhetoric, my friend, empty rhetoric.

"own free will" That's another good topic. Does man have a freewill about being a sinner? Nope.

There are scriptures that seem to support both sides.

Didn't Jesus no man cometh to father lest he draws them?

[crakjak]

A confused and powerless God? If he didn't respect our own will, there would have never been a fall to begin with. Let's keep it in perspective. He didn't fail, He won. And he's offered a way out through Him... through Him... through Him... that is the Gospel!!

What are you reading, Crak?

Empty rhetoric, my friend, empty rhetoric.



Nonsense, my friend, He is the first cause, He set up the garden, and allowed the serpent access.

His original plan included the fall, for His full purpose. It is all plan A, no plan B.

If your view is correct, and you say he has "offered" a way out, why is it so unlikely for most humans to find this "way out"?

No, I believe we have been listening to "empty rhetoric" way too long. HE is not powerless or impotent to save, HE came and carried the load HIMSELF. And HE will save to the uttermost, HE is the refining fire that will "thoroughly" cleanse HIS creation.

[Socialite]

Nonsense, my friend, He is the first cause, He set up the garden, and allowed the serpent access.

His original plan included the fall, for His full purpose. It is all plan A, no plan B.

If your view is correct, and you say he has "offered" a way out, why is it so unlikely for most humans to find this "way out"?

No, I believe we have been listening to "empty rhetoric" way too long. HE is not powerless or impotent to save, HE came and carried the load HIMSELF. And HE will save to the uttermost, HE is the refining fire that will "thoroughly" cleanse HIS creation.

What does the garden tell us about God? He wants to provide? What does the serpent's existence tell us about God? He wants us to not trust God's providence. God desires our trust. Us trusting Him that He knows what's best.

You have a lot of explaining to do if you believe The Fall was Plan A, God's will, that is pleases Him... Let's talk about a sadistic God, shall we.

Stop the strawman about him being "powerless" to save. His blood is life. Of course he came and carried the load Himself --- for all who believe. That fact is, I can't even list all the scriptures and quotes from the Gospels that include "for all who believe" "for all who are called" "for those whom he elected" "for those who love the Lord" etc... It would fill a list a couple pages long. Get your pen out!

Let's get back to the argument. Point-for-point, verse-for-verse, we could go on all day like this.

[Ferd]

Crackjack, you do not dissapoint!

I do not agree with you but that doesnt mean I dont respect your study and commitment to the cause!

Be blessed my friend!

[Truthseeker]

What does the garden tell us about God? He wants to provide? What does the serpent's existence tell us about God? He wants us to not trust God's providence. God desires our trust. Us trusting Him that He knows what's best.

You have a lot of explaining to do if you believe The Fall was Plan A, God's will, that is pleases Him... Let's talk about a sadistic God, shall we.

Stop the strawman about him being "powerless" to save. His blood is life. Of course he came and carried the load Himself --- for all who believe. That fact is, I can't even list all the scriptures and quotes from the Gospels that include "for all who believe" "for all who are called" "for those whom he elected" "for those who love the Lord" etc... It would fill a list a couple pages long. Get your pen out!

Let's get back to the argument. Point-for-point, verse-for-verse, we could go on all day like this.

Wasn't the lamb slain before the foundations of the world? Some think that means before the earth was even created, of so, then wouldn't it indeed be plan A?

[Socialite]

Wasn't the lamb slain before the foundations of the world? Some think that means before the earth was even created, of so, then wouldn't it indeed be plan A?

Are you just asking to ask? These questions don't match your other posts.

I really don't have time to go down that trail.. at least today. The language in the verse is the key... and that this is from The Revelation should also be considered. There's an answer, but my fingers don't have the drive.

[Truthseeker]

Are you just asking to ask? These questions don't match your other posts.

I really don't have time to go down that trail.. at least today. The language in the verse is the key... and that this is from The Revelation should also be considered. There's an answer, but my fingers don't have the drive.

Asking to get input. Not even sure if that scripture means what many says it does. If does mean what some say it does then it would God knew ahead of time he was coming to save man from sin which means it was Gods will.

I understand about low drive sometimes for the fingers, sometimes I don't it to reply to some posts.

[Socialite]

If there is a burning hell then God does torture sinners.

If I got it right yopu believe hell is just a seperation from God? not an actual physical punishment?

TS, that there is a judgment does not mean God "tortures sinners." Man has condemned himself. He stepped outside of protection that God provided.

In Western thought, stories like Achan, Adam & Eve --- or even David and his generations banned from the Temple don't make sense to us. Corporate responsibility is pushed aside by a relatively new understanding of individual responsibility and free will -- not that those ideas didn't exist before, just that they existed in a different perspective. This is pretty important so we don't have a limited perspective about free will vs. predestination, etc.

Adam's fail was indicative of all of mankind. You can't explain that not only did this affect man's moral life and, therefore, every area of relationship, but it affected the ground. It affected the material universe, the physical universe. And Romans 8 says: "The whole creation groans" under this curse. The reason there is disintegration, death and all of that in the entire universe goes right back to Genesis Chapter 3.

Whether we came out sinning or just inclined by nature toward sin -- we could argue. But the fact is, even in the womb we were "in sin." Imputed sin.

Us Post-Enlightenment Moderns can struggle over the free will nature of that, but it's the reality of scripture --- and as far as I've seen, it's the reality of human nature. We aren't inclined toward goodness.

[Socialite]

Crak -- feedback, comments from the original posts in this thread?

Let's get into the meat and potatoes.

[Truthseeker]

If there is a hell then who created it? God did. For what purpose? to punish the wicked.

I think we just don't like saying God tortures the wicked in a buring infernal, but he created, deciodes who goes and long it would be. IMO, no way around not accepting God punishes sinners.

[Socialite]

If there is a hell then who created it? God did. For what purpose? to punish the wicked.

I think we just don't like saying God tortures the wicked in a buring infernal, but he created, deciodes who goes and long it would be. IMO, no way around not accepting God punishes sinners.

TS, there's not a "way around" there's just a different perspective.

Also, I do not believe that Hell is a physical torture chamber. You were correct in your previous assumption.

[Truthseeker]

TS, there's not a "way around" there's just a different perspective.

Also, I do not believe that Hell is a physical torture chamber. You were correct in your previous assumption.

I have doubts about the hell being an actual burning place myself. Do think when Jesus preached hell it was tied into the destruction of jerusalem, but that's another thread. :thumbsup

[crakjak]

Crak -- feedback, comments from the original posts in this thread?

Let's get into the meat and potatoes.

I have addressed all of those on other threads, however give me time and I will walk thru them again for all the newbies. :highfive

[crakjak]

Crackjack, you do not dissapoint!

I do not agree with you but that doesnt mean I dont respect your study and commitment to the cause!

Be blessed my friend!

Thanks, Ferd, appriecate your kind words. You are special folks in my book.

Your new building is looking great, how does everyone like being in full view of all of Dallas?

[Socialite]

I have addressed all of those on other threads, however give me time and I will walk thru them again for all the newbies. :highfive

I never cared to jump in before. So now I'm game. If you want to link to old stuff, that's cool. But rather than wade hundreds of pages, I thought we could start with a fresh sheet of paper.

Looking fwd.

[Socialite]

Universalist Fallacy #1

The Nature & Character of God is reduced.

Christian theology must commence with Who God is, His character, and the recognition of how His very Being is expressed in His actions. Universalism may appear to do so, as it typically presents its argument by focusing on God’s love and His conveyance of such by grace. This is deceiving, however, for the major premise of universalism is the predetermined decree of God’s objective to save all men. This fallacious starting point posits a predetermined objective that is then used to define and justify God’s character of love and His functional grace.

Without question, “God is love” (I John 4:8,16). Love describes Who God is, not something God has in order to distribute to others. The God Who is love preceded the creation of man, and He was complete and fulfilled in His love expression from eternity-past. God did not have to save mankind through Christ in order “to prove Himself” to be love. There was no external logical mandate that necessarily implied that in order “to be true to Himself,” He had to act to save all fallen creatures. This impinges upon the absolute freedom of God to function as the God that He is, and ever so subtly binds God in a logical necessity (which deifies human logic and relegates God as the instrumentation of such).

Fowler: We must beware of any form of theological reductionism that tends to reduce God to a single or primary attribute or character trait, such as love. The “God is love” form of universalism is the most popular contemporary expression of universalistic thought, and its thesis finds its way into the arguments of the other forms, but there is always the danger of attempting to define God only on the basis of His love, or to explain His love in expressions analogous to human love, rather than in the singularity of the incarnational manifestation of love in the Son, Jesus Christ.

[Socialite]

Universalist Fallacy #2 - God's Love

When the omnipotence of God’s sovereign action is logically connected to the character of divine love, Christian theology can soon go astray in asserting that sovereign omnipotence must always achieve what it desires, even if by imposition or coercion.

Though the desire and “will of God” is clearly stated, for “God is not willing that any should perish” (II Pet. 3:9), this does not necessarily imply that God must bring this to pass in universal enactment, for this once again binds God in a logical necessity.

Divine love must be understood in relational context (Father/Son/Spirit). Mechanical understandings of God's love as this unilateral force, deterministically and omnipotently imposing on man the "will of God" is a great violence to the proper understanding of God's love. Relational love cannot be forced or coerced. On a human level this is called “rape,” and on the divine level such a unilateral determination to coerce man to participate in God’s love does violence to the genuine faith-love relationship that God intends by a freely chosen response and willingness of man to be intimately involved with Himself.

[Socialite]

Universalist Fallacy #3 More on God's Love

God IS Love. We don't judge His love by doing, the finite judging the infinite.

Yes, God “desires all men to be saved” (I Tim. 2:4), but His love and sovereign omnipotence must not be defined, evaluated, and legitimized by effectual universal quantification in the salvation of all men. God is love, whether He saves all men, or does not save any man. God’s love is not contingent on man’s need of salvation, or on the result of universal quantification.

More from Fowler:
If in any manner we reason “God is love because He saves all men,” we establish God’s Being by a utilitarian process that defines God by what He does for man. This is the essence of idolatry, for idols are defined by how they serve, satisfy, and benefit man.
Idols are constructed for man’s well-being. We must not engage in the idolatry of making God a magical means to man’s ends. Universalism often ends up being both humanistic and idolatrous as it constructs a “god” who is a universal producer of egalitarian benefits and blessings for man. The benefits and blessings are then elevated for worship, instead of worshipping and glorifying God for the worthiness of His own Being. We do not worship God for what He can do for us, but for Who He is in Himself.

[Socialite]

Universalist Fallacies #4 - Judgment & Divine Wrath

Universalism often reacts with emotional venom at the mention of divine judgment or wrath. God's love is not necessarily a denial of His justice and judgment. His love and justice are not competing or contradicting even.

The loving justice of God implies intolerance and rejection of all evil and sin that are not consistent with Himself, for such thwarts divine glorification and frustrates derivative man in his created raison d’etre. God’s judgment and the reprobation of those who reject God’s love and grace do not comprise or reveal a failure of divine sovereignty or love. The God of love grieves over those who reject Him, “not willing that any should perish,” but grief and suffering are not indicative of the failure of love, but of love reacting to freely chosen rejection.

[Socialite]

Universalism Fallacy #5

Reinterpreting Scripture

The only way to prove Universalism is to re-imagine, re-interpret and become creative with texts properly understood for centuries.

Also, Greek words like 'aionion and aionios' which translated into English denote "everlasting, for ever, for evermore", they say are only used in a temporary sense (eon, eon of the eons, eonian, age-during, age's past, etc.) This has poor scholarship written all over it, and it completely ignores context in which the usage of the words is given.

Universalists also propagate the inaccurate teaching that the word "all" in scripture, is "everything, all with no exceptions" --- this is also easily defeated in light of scripture.

There are more fallacies. I become interested more in the philosophical fallacies (what it means about the Gospel, the Incarnation, etc), but I'm willing to dabble with you.

So, let's jump in!

[Socialite]

And just for fun -- are there sects within Universalism that believe even Satan and his angels will be properly restored as well?

[NotforSale]

Hell (Eternal flames of torture and punishment) makes absolutely no sense, and cannot be validated from Old Testament teachings and sound Jewish Theology. The Jews have argued this subject thoroughly, and the flaws are endless; removes the "Free Will" from men; who really goes there?; how does Mercy play in?; why does God allow the propagation of humans if most are destined to burn forever?; how does a Church describe the remedy to avoid a place they cannot see or touch?; which Church should one attend which carries the baton to Heaven?

Hell is also found in other Religions of the World, long before Christianity ever was. In fact, Hell can be traced clear back to Ancient Egypt and Greece, centuries before Jesus Christ was born. There are proven ties to the Hell of the New Testament and ancient pagan faith’s of the World.

The link below (and statement from the link) also shows translational error(s) within Scripture, proving the flaw of man and his lust for the "Fear Bound" tactic of condemning the disobedient via Spectral realms. If people can't truly question the validity of the unseen, manipulation by terror is a wide open door to those in authority.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html

"Dear reader, are you aware that 2000 years after the gospel was sent into the world, that there are literally thousands of languages in the earth today which do NOT have even pieces of Scriptures let alone an entire Bible? Do you understand that from Adam to the present day, probably well over 95 percent of the world never heard the one name under which men must be saved? Are you also aware that most of the world who did hear the name hear it from a Catholic priest who told them that Jesus was a piece of cracker which they had to eat in order to be saved? Are you also aware that most denominations of Christianity throughout the ages have added hundreds of other qualifications which potential converts also had to perform or rules one had to abide by in order to stay saved? The list is endless-it ranges from being a member of the "right" church or denomination to a certain form of water baptism to declaring a certain formula to having to speak in tongues, etc. Once a person is saved, there are literally hundreds of ways one can lose their salvation according to the thousands of different denominations which have formed around creeds, men, styles of buildings and worship, nationality, forms of church government, etc."

This subject has horrifying affects on those who “THINK” they know God, and I’ve personally observed abusive behavior, using HELL in debate to draw the line. Also, people are afraid to question Hell because of being indoctrinated by those who say they have the facts about the afterlife, when in reality, they don't.

[Socialite]

This subject has horrifying affects on those who “THINK” they know God, and I’ve personally observed abusive behavior, using HELL in debate to draw the line. Also, people are afraid to question Hell because of being indoctrinated by those who say they have the facts about the afterlife, when in reality, they don't.

Drive-by, on-my-way-out-the-door post... but what you described here does not describe me or anyone I have fellowship with... and we ALL believe in Hell. We have differing opinions about it, and though most of us don't feel it's a flaming torture pit, we believe those descriptions are adequate to describe the intensity of being isolated from God.

[Cindy]

To some, the idea of a Final Judgement seems unreasonable. This is where the idea of universalism surfaces. Some contend that those who in this life reject the offer of salvation will, after their death and Christ's second coming, be sobered by their situation and will therefore be reconciled to Christ.

While I won't pretend this is an easy matter to resolve (certainly a couple passages appears contradictory), but I believe we can understand them better in light of all scriptures on that subject. It's never good to form a doctrine on ambiguity.

Contradictory Scriptures?
Phil 2:10-11 "At the name of Jesus every knee (shall) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Col 1:19-20 "In Christ all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

More verses used: Romans 5:18; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22.

To be continued...

What does the "Cracky" in your thread title mean?

[Socialite]

What does the "Cracky" in your thread title mean?

Just havin' fun... rhyming... being playful with my friend CrakJak.

[NotforSale]

Drive-by, on-my-way-out-the-door post... but what you described here does not describe me or anyone I have fellowship with... and we ALL believe in Hell. We have differing opinions about it, and though most of us don't feel it's a flaming torture pit, we believe those descriptions are adequate to describe the intensity of being isolated from God.

Good point. Being isolated from God does weigh in my heart as being a terrible plight, but I also view God as my Father. A Father that loves His children is grieved over the wandering and stumbling of His flesh and blood, but His arms remain open to His battered, bruised, and afraid family. I just don't see God forsaking those He loves because they fail, and that includes the failure of not understanding.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most Oneness/Apostolic Churches teach the "Burn Forever" doctrine. My experience in the Oneness Movement has been the "Hell Fire" message of, either you obey or you BURN (Literally) forever.

I do think, though, that the concept of Hell has bothered those who used to strictly adhere to the teaching "Eternal Torture", as experience in life proves the great flaw in all of us.

[Theophil]

The above view of God, is a god that is confused and impotent toward his creation, powerless to complete what he began. Why? because he failed to take in to account the power of Satan and the ALL POWERFUL WILL of those that he created.

This is not the God of the Bible, it is a god created in the image of his creation, by men who make excuses for the failure of the this wimpy creator.

BUT JESUS CHRIST THE TRUE GOD OF THE BIBLE, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, TO THE RESCUE!!!!

"...FEAR NOT FOR I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD...!

Do you call yourself Crakjak because of wht you're smokin'?

[crakjak]

Do you call yourself Crakjak because of wht you're smokin'?

:smack:heeheehee

[crakjak]

Other scriptures seem to contradict the idea of Universalism though:

Mt 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This verse is the final line in Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats, and many folks believe it is the final word on the fate of unbelievers. Though there is no reference at all concerning the saved or the lost in these scriptures.

What is the true meaning of this parable: What I find is that when we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, Jesus says, it is as if we are ministering directly to Jesus himself. And when we refuse to minister to the broken and hurting around us, it is as if we are refusing to minister to Jesus himself.

Many are utterly shocked to discover the true nature of their own actions. This verse is a very powerful point about the inclusive character of love and how the interests of Jesus are so closely connected with his love for humanity that any good that befalls them is good that befalls Him, and any evil that befalls "the least of His" is evil that befalls Him.

Most folks consider this context as the final separation of the good and the wicked, and that eternal life is the reward for our good works--even though Paul explicitly denies that that is the case.

"The purpose of the story is to inform us that our actions, for good or ill, are more far reaching than we might have imagined, and that we will be judged accordingly; it is NOT to warn us concerning the ultimate fate of the wicked." T. Talbott

[MrMasterMind]

And just for fun -- are there sects within Universalism that believe even Satan and his angels will be properly restored as well?

Crakjak believes just that. Every human who has every lived as well as Satan and his minions will end up redeemed and in heaven

[crakjak]

Crakjak believes just that. Every human who has every lived as well as Satan and his minions will end up redeemed and in heaven

I am agnostic toward "Satan and his minions", however I have declared that God is more than able to bring these to repentance, He has the power, He has the time. He is not in a power struggle with anyone, He is the Almighty.

One thing is for certain, all creation and everything in it is to be redeemed, no person or thing will continue in defiance of God, everyone and everything will bow and confess, not just in submission, but also "to the GLORY of God the Father." No hellhole or lake of fire will preserve any evil forever.

[Ferd]

Thanks, Ferd, appriecate your kind words. You are special folks in my book.

Your new building is looking great, how does everyone like being in full view of all of Dallas?

It really is fantastic! We have had far bigger crowds and a lot of people have become part of us already.

By the way we had a bunch of your ceramic angels on our christmas tree again this year. Love those things!

[crakjak]

It really is fantastic! We have had far bigger crowds and a lot of people have become part of us already.

By the way we had a bunch of your ceramic angels on our christmas tree again this year. Love those things!

That's cool. We had a great Christmas Open House Sale again, raised over 22K on a Friday evening, and six hours of Saturday. Coventry is growing, plan on breaking ground on next building phase midyear.

[Cindy]

Just havin' fun... rhyming... being playful with my friend CrakJak.

:heeheehee

[Ferd]

That's cool. We had a great Christmas Open House Sale again, raised over 22K on a Friday evening, and six hours of Saturday. Coventry is growing, plan on breaking ground on next building phase midyear.

That is so cool. I have to get back over there

[crakjak]

This verse is the final line in Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats, and many folks believe it is the final word on the fate of unbelievers. Though there is no reference at all concerning the saved or the lost in these scriptures.

What is the true meaning of this parable: What I find is that when we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, Jesus says, it is as if we are ministering directly to Jesus himself. And when we refuse to minister to the broken and hurting around us, it is as if we are refusing to minister to Jesus himself.

Many are utterly shocked to discover the true nature of their own actions. This verse is a very powerful point about the inclusive character of love and how the interests of Jesus are so closely connected with his love for humanity that any good that befalls them is good that befalls Him, and any evil that befalls "the least of His" is evil that befalls Him.

Most folks consider this context as the final separation of the good and the wicked, and that eternal life is the reward for our good works--even though Paul explicitly denies that that is the case.

"The purpose of the story is to inform us that our actions, for good or ill, are more far reaching than we might have imagined, and that we will be judged accordingly; it is NOT to warn us concerning the ultimate fate of the wicked." T. Talbott

Bump for Socialite!

[crakjak]

I am agnostic toward "Satan and his minions", however I have declared that God is more than able to bring these to repentance, He has the power, He has the time. He is not in a power struggle with anyone, He is the Almighty.

One thing is for certain, all creation and everything in it is to be redeemed, no person or thing will continue in defiance of God, everyone and everything will bow and confess, not just in submission, but also "to the GLORY of God the Father." No hellhole or lake of fire will preserve any evil forever.

Bump for Mr. M&M

[crakjak]

I am agnostic toward "Satan and his minions", however I have declared that God is more than able to bring these to repentance, He has the power, He has the time. He is not in a power struggle with anyone, He is the Almighty.

One thing is for certain, all creation and everything in it is to be redeemed, no person or thing will continue in defiance of God, everyone and everything will bow and confess, not just in submission, but also "to the GLORY of God the Father." No hellhole or lake of fire will preserve any evil forever.

Bump for Mastermind and Socialite????

[Socialite]

This verse is the final line in Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats, and many folks believe it is the final word on the fate of unbelievers. Though there is no reference at all concerning the saved or the lost in these scriptures.

What is the true meaning of this parable: What I find is that when we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, Jesus says, it is as if we are ministering directly to Jesus himself. And when we refuse to minister to the broken and hurting around us, it is as if we are refusing to minister to Jesus himself.

Many are utterly shocked to discover the true nature of their own actions. This verse is a very powerful point about the inclusive character of love and how the interests of Jesus are so closely connected with his love for humanity that any good that befalls them is good that befalls Him, and any evil that befalls "the least of His" is evil that befalls Him.

Most folks consider this context as the final separation of the good and the wicked, and that eternal life is the reward for our good works--even though Paul explicitly denies that that is the case.

"The purpose of the story is to inform us that our actions, for good or ill, are more far reaching than we might have imagined, and that we will be judged accordingly; it is NOT to warn us concerning the ultimate fate of the wicked." T. Talbott

Crakjak, I appreciate your perspective on this, and even the quote by Talbott, but it still falls short IMO.

The idea of "eternal life" in contrast to "eternal/everlasting death" is everywhere in the NT. Yes, the point of the parable is to provoke others to good works, but it also rebukes the Pharisees and those who claimed to be followers of Jesus but did not bear good fruit.

[Socialite]

I am agnostic toward "Satan and his minions", however I have declared that God is more than able to bring these to repentance, He has the power, He has the time. He is not in a power struggle with anyone, He is the Almighty.

One thing is for certain, all creation and everything in it is to be redeemed, no person or thing will continue in defiance of God, everyone and everything will bow and confess, not just in submission, but also "to the GLORY of God the Father." No hellhole or lake of fire will preserve any evil forever.

James 2

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble."


In verse 19, James makes an interesting point in bringing in the idea of Satan and his demons. In it, he's basically saying "mental ascent" is not faith, and faith without works is dead faith. So theorizing that there is a God won't work, and as evidence he shows Satan and his demons -- who we know are unsaved. They are reprobate, and already once judged in history. Satan will be bound up again, the scrutiny of the world ("is this the one that made the nations tremble?"). That there will be redemption and restoration of all creation someday is a point I agree with.

[Socialite]

We want a God who is like us. We want Him to do what we want. We want a God that we can form and shape. When that doesn't work, some hide behind the clouds of doubt, cynicism and fear, hoping to escape the reality of a God who Calls us to believe in Him and follow after Him.

Because we want our God like us, we call His desire for our trust "narcissistic." Yet, it's hard to see a narcissistic God come in flesh, to the position of a Jew, poor and in a manger, and die an agonizing death, mocked up until even his last breath. "For God so loved the world that he gave..."

When we make God like us, we are idolaters. No different than the Persians, Medes and Babylonians. If the story doesn't seem fair, we say it can't be right. We want to do what we feel and believe is right. This is idolatry. We presume to take over the divine prerogative.

[Socialite]

Love Tim Keller's words here:

The doctrine of hell is crucial—without it we can’t understand our complete dependence on God, the character and danger of even the smallest sins, and the true scope of the costly love of Jesus. Nevertheless, it is possible to stress the doctrine of hell in unwise ways. Many, for fear of doctrinal compromise, want to put all the emphasis on God’s active judgment, and none on the self-chosen character of hell. Ironically, as we have seen, this unBiblical imbalance often makes it less of a deterrent to non-believers rather than more of one. And some can preach hell in such a way that people reform their lives only out of a self-interested fear of avoiding consequences, not out of love and loyalty to the one who embraced and experienced hell in our place. The distinction between those two motives is all-important. The first creates a moralist, the second a born-again believer.

I will admit, however, that Keller's exegesis here leaves you wanting, but his homily is hearty :)

Anyone read NT Wright's Surprised by Hope?

[crakjak]

James 2

In verse 19, James makes an interesting point in bringing in the idea of Satan and his demons. In it, he's basically saying "mental ascent" is not faith, and faith without works is dead faith. So theorizing that there is a God won't work, and as evidence he shows Satan and his demons -- who we know are unsaved. They are reprobate, and already once judged in history. Satan will be bound up again, the scrutiny of the world ("is this the one that made the nations tremble?"). That there will be redemption and restoration of all creation someday is a point I agree with.


But do you believe, with scripture, that creation and all that is in it, will be saved?

Yes, the demons "tremble", but this verse is no proof-text for your point. They "tremble" because it is a "fearful thing" to fall into the hands of the living God. Why? Because HE is a refining fire!!!

[crakjak]

We want a God who is like us. We want Him to do what we want. We want a God that we can form and shape. When that doesn't work, some hide behind the clouds of doubt, cynicism and fear, hoping to escape the reality of a God who Calls us to believe in Him and follow after Him.

Because we want our God like us, we call His desire for our trust "narcissistic." Yet, it's hard to see a narcissistic God come in flesh, to the position of a Jew, poor and in a manger, and die an agonizing death, mocked up until even his last breath. "For God so loved the world that he gave..."

When we make God like us, we are idolaters. No different than the Persians, Medes and Babylonians. If the story doesn't seem fair, we say it can't be right. We want to do what we feel and believe is right. This is idolatry. We presume to take over the divine prerogative.

I'll refute the accusation that in believing UR, that we "want a God like us".

Question: How does man respond to offense???? He wants to destroy, hence the war and conflict in the earth. Just like the ED doctrine of god!

How does God respond? He comes and pays our debt, suffers and dies for us in the form of a man. He turns the other cheek, and absorbs the hit, forgives when are were yet sinners. This is the true God, and fits perfectly with the UR doctrine.

Final Question: WHO? Makes god like us? UR'S OR ED'S?

My friend, this tired old argument fails, dramatically!!

[crakjak]

Love Tim Keller's words here:

Quote:
The doctrine of hell is crucial—without it we can’t understand our complete dependence on God, the character and danger of even the smallest sins, and the true scope of the costly love of Jesus. Nevertheless, it is possible to stress the doctrine of hell in unwise ways. Many, for fear of doctrinal compromise, want to put all the emphasis on God’s active judgment, and none on the self-chosen character of hell. Ironically, as we have seen, this unBiblical imbalance often makes it less of a deterrent to non-believers rather than more of one. And some can preach hell in such a way that people reform their lives only out of a self-interested fear of avoiding consequences, not out of love and loyalty to the one who embraced and experienced hell in our place. The distinction between those two motives is all-important. The first creates a moralist, the second a born-again believer.

I will admit, however, that Keller's exegesis here leaves you wanting, but his homily is hearty :)

Anyone read NT Wright's Surprised by Hope?

That's sad.

[Socialite]

That's sad.

Our fragile helplessness without God? I think so too... thank God we have a Hope in Him.

And thank God we have a God who made us in Him image, not us making Him in ours.

[crakjak]

Our fragile helplessness without God? I think so too... thank God we have a Hope in Him.

And thank God we have a God who made us in Him image, not us making Him in ours.

Agree, on all counts.

And in spite of the fall, God is in the process of restoring us to that image. The current context is for our education, so that we will be able to truly understand His holiness and majesty. All steel is tempered for strength, gold is refined for purity, wheat is thrashed for the kernal. I believe God wants true partners in the completion of the cosmos. Our preprogrammed views of God are much too small.

[Socialite]

Agree, on all counts.

And in spite of the fall, God is in the process of restoring us to that image. The current context is for our education, so that we will be able to truly understand His holiness and majesty. All steel is tempered for strength, gold is refined for purity, wheat is thrashed for the kernal. I believe God wants true partners in the completion of the cosmos. Our preprogrammed views of God are much too small.

And our post-modern sensitivities about demanding who God must be are too small too :)

Eternal life, eternal death. Repent or perish.... why halt between the two opinions :)

[crakjak]

In the late 1800's, Thomas J. Sawyer composed a tract that listed the general doctrines, with Biblical references, of the variety of "Christian Universalism" agreed upon by many which presented "Christian Universalism" as a complete system of faith. Those doctrines are shown below:

We believe the authenticity, genuineness, and inspiration, of the Holy Scriptures; that both the Old and New Testaments contain the revealed will of God and that the Bible is the only and sufficient rule of faith and practice.
1. The Bible
2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20-21

We believe the existence of the one living and true God, the Creator, Preserver, and Governor of all worlds, beings, and things. We believe that God is self-existent, independent and eternal; omniscient and omnipresent; infinite in wisdom, goodness and power; in justice, mercy and truth. With Saint Paul we say, "To us there is but one God, even the Father." We believe God to be the universal Father of mankind; the Father of Spirits, our Father in heaven, who loves the whole human family, without exception, even while they are yet sinners, who is kind to the unthankful and to the evil, and who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. In one word, we believe that God is Love.
2. God
Matt. 6:9; Luke 6:35; Rom. 5:8; 1 Cor. 8:6; 1 Tim. 2:4; Heb. 12:9; 1 John 4:8

We believe that to manifest his love for the human race, God sent his Son Jesus Christ into the world, to reveal more perfectly the divine character and purposes, and finally, through death and resurrection, to bring life and immortality to light. We believe that Christ is the brightness of the Father's glory and the express image of his person. We believe that he is appointed by the Father, heir of all things, and is Lord of all, and the he must reign, till he has subdued all things to himself, when he himself will deliver up the kingdom to the Father that God may be all in all. Thus he will save his people from their sins, and be what inspiration proclaims him to be, the Savior of the world. To this end we believe he gave himself a ransom for all, and tasted death for every man, for God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.
3. Jesus Christ
Matt. 1:21; Acts 10:36; 1 Cor. 15:25, 28; 2 Cor. 5:19; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb. 1:2-3; Heb. 2:9; 1 John 4:14

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the spirit of God, the spirit of truth, the Comfortor, the guide, who convicts the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, and whose fruits in the believing soul are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
4. Holy Spirit
John 14:16-17; John 16:7-13; Gal. 5:22-23

We believe in the importance of indespensable necessity of repentance, that is, godly sorrow for sin, and a true reformation of heart and life.
5. Repentence
Acts 3:19; Heb. 11:6

We believe in the new birth, or a change of heart, effected in the soul by a cordial belief of the gospel truth, accompanied by the sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit.
6. New Birth
John 3:3; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal 5:22-23

We believe in the importance of good works, not to purchase salvation, or gain the love of God -- for salvation is of grace alone, and God loves even his enemies -- but as the natural fruits of the gospel cordially received, the evidences of indwelling grace, and because they are good and profitable to men.
7. Good Works
Titus 3:8; 1 John 4:19; 5:1:-2

We believe in a just and equitable, and at the same time, a parental administration of the divine government; in which God renders to every man according to his works, so that he that does wrong shall receive for the wrong which he has done, and there is no respect of persons. Beyond this state of rewards and punishments, we believe a state of immortal felicity will be conferred upon the whole human family, as a free gift, by the infinite grace of the Father, through Christ Jesus.
8. Judgment
Ps. 62:12; Rom. 5:12-21; Eph. 2:4-9; Col. 3:25

We believe in the universal resurrection of the dead; for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
9. Resurrection
1 Cor. 15:22

We believe in a life and immortality for the human race beyond the grave, where the mortal shall put on immortality, and where man can die no more, but shall be as the angels, and be children of God.
10. Everlasting Life
Luke 20:36; 1 Cor. 15:23

We believe that, in the fulness of time, God will bring together all things in Christ, when, in the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, of things in heaven and in earth, and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father; when, as by one man's disobedience, many are made sinners, so, by the obedience of one, shall the same many be made righteous; in one word, when Christ shall have taken away the sin of the world, accomplished the great mission on which he came, done the will of God, seen the fruits of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied, and GOD BE ALL IN ALL.
11. The Consummation
Isa. 53:11; Rom. 5:19; 1 Cor. 15:28; Eph. 1:9-10; Phil. 2:10-11


For a general understanding of UR, these statments of belief, cover Universal Reconciliation fairly well. All OP's should be able to embrace the definition of God presented here? In items one thru four.

[crakjak]

I'll refute the accusation that in believing UR, that we "want a God like us".

Question: How does man respond to offense???? He wants to destroy, hence the war and conflict in the earth. Just like the ED doctrine of god!

How does God respond? He comes and pays our debt, suffers and dies for us in the form of a man. He turns the other cheek, and absorbs the hit, forgives when are were yet sinners. This is the true God, and fits perfectly with the UR doctrine.

Final Question: WHO? Makes god like us? UR'S OR ED'S?

My friend, this tired old argument fails, dramatically!!

bump