Emphasizing the Wrong Priorities

[Praxeas]

I think the biggest difference between what we've often called UCs and those that are not is their emphasis on works. Because of that and their wrong view of those that don't emphasis works, they erroneously accuse any thing that is not UC of all sorts of things ranging from "reprobates" to being ok with sin.

Jesus addressed this error

Mat 23:16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
Mat 23:17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred?

Notice Jesus was correcting their wrong thinking. Their emphasis was on the wrong thing. Jesus called them blind fools. He continues to show how they had a wrong way of viewing things

Mat 23:18 And you say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.'
Mat 23:19 You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
Mat 23:20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
Mat 23:21 And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it.
Mat 23:22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.


This was always the problem with the Phariseeical minded person. They focused on regulations so much they were obsessed with how they can affect their own salvation so much that they even made up their own rules and regulations.

Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

The Pharisees were very big on the outward appearances to men. They boasted about how they fasted. They thought they were righteous because they tithed on absolutely everything, but their focus was NOT on what was important according to Jesus, which was justice, mercy and faithfulness. It was their emphasis that was the problem

Mat 23:24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

Jesus again told them they were blind but this time included the fact they were guides. Others followed them and we know they were blind leaders of the blind. Those that followed them, followed them into the ditch.

Mat 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Mat 23:26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

These people emphasis what can be plainly seen outwardly, seen with the eyes. The look at the cup and they think the cup looks fine. Their emphasis is on the outward not the inward..

The true church had to deal with these kinds of people in their days.
2Co 5:12 We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart.

Mat 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

See, the problem with those that emphasis rules and regulations is clear, as long as you meet our standards then you must be Holy. But according to Jesus these pharisee's looked the part but inwardly they were spiritual criminals. They appeared Holy. They preached this outward appeal. The even pointed to other men to distract from their own corrupt selves (see the pharisee and the sinner praying at the wall). This is how the wrong emphasis works. Not only do they emphasize the wrong priority, they attempt to feel even more superior and make those that follow them feel that way by railing on those that don't emphasize what they do.

When these people are feeling low or guilty, they emphasize the wrong priority; They preach even harder against others to make themselves feel better all the while inside they are hurting.

Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations--
Col 2:21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch"
Col 2:22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)--according to human precepts and teachings?
Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

Paul was not against works. His priority though was on faith. His priority was on Christ. Those whose priority is not on the outward are not promoting doing what you want. They just realize that Only Christ can clean the inside of the cup. They emphasize Christ and what He can do and their priority is to preach whatever will help you have faith in Christ so that not only will the inside of the cup be clean but the outside will to.

Luk 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt:
Luk 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.'
Luk 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

These that emphasize the wrong priority, do so often at the expense of others and the promotion of themselves. They look down on others who emphasize mercy and faith in Christ as inferior. They point out what the others are doing, all the while what they are really doing is pointing away from their corrupt inner man. As long as we are looking with our eyes we will see a righteous man he hopes and as long as we are focused on looking at others we may never notice that all we are seeing is the outside of the cup and not notice how dirty the inside really is.

Rules and regulations will never clean the inside of the cup, only Christ can do that. While those that emphasize rules and regulations will erroneously charge those that emphasize Christ as sinners who say we can do whatever we want, those that emphasize the inner work of Christ have true works and obedience because of what Christ is doing on the inside.

Preach to me faith. Preach to me something that will affect my inner man to trust in Christ and grow Spiritually, so that my outward man can be clean also!

[aegsm76]

Hmmm. I guess I've been going to the wrong kind of UC church.
That could have been taken from any of several sermons I've heard my pastor preach.
The only thing that I would add is that inside cleansing will be reflected on the outside.

[Praxeas]

Hmmm. I guess I've been going to the wrong kind of UC church.
That could have been taken from any of several sermons I've heard my pastor preach.
The only thing that I would add is that inside cleansing will be reflected on the outside.
Im glad to hear that at your church they rarely preach rules and regulations but rather they preach Christ.

BTW that's not an addition. I said that

[aegsm76]

Not to say that we do not preach rules/regulations/standards, whatever you want to call it, but as one of my favorite sayings goes:

"Rules without relationship leads to rebellion."

The relationship with God comes first.

[pelathais]

Hmmm. I guess I've been going to the wrong kind of UC church.
That could have been taken from any of several sermons I've heard my pastor preach.
The only thing that I would add is that inside cleansing will be reflected on the outside.

Or, could it be that you and your church is simply not an example of what Prax is describing? Maybe you're already "one of us?" :lol

[aegsm76]

I hadn't thought of that!
No, we are still UC!!
We are a little on the maverick side, though.

[Praxeas]

Not to say that we do not preach rules/regulations/standards, whatever you want to call it, but as one of my favorite sayings goes:

"Rules without relationship leads to rebellion."

The relationship with God comes first.
Im talking about what get's emphasized.

See, you are doing exactly what I said in the thread starter. I did not say "good you guys never preach standards"

I said "they rarely preach rules and regulations"...somehow you took my point about emphasis on Christ and not on Rules to mean "Never preach standards"

[Praxeas]

Or, could it be that you and your church is simply not an example of what Prax is describing? Maybe you're already "one of us?" :lol
They're looking our way! :heeheehee

[aegsm76]

Im talking about what get's emphasized.

See, you are doing exactly what I said in the thread starter. I did not say "good you guys never preach standards"

I said "they rarely preach rules and regulations"...somehow you took my point about emphasis on Christ and not on Rules to mean "Never preach standards"

That's what it generally means when it's posted around here.:heeheehee:foottap:girlytantrum

[Praxeas]

So, anyways, what would you say is emphasized the most?

Are rules and regulations a means to Christ?

[Michael The Disciple]

Jesus Christ is very concerned about his commandments. Notice I said HIS COMMANDMENTS. I am not at all writing about the commandments of men but those things which he himself has instructed his disciples.

28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:19-20

The way he sees it your desire toward him (his person) is directly related to what you do with his commandments.

5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3

I certainly am not what this forum would consider an "ultra con" but to be fair there is another side of what you are saying. There are plenty of Churches and Teachers out there who are THINKING that they emphasize the person of Jesus and MUCH of their doctrine is simply to minimize this important aspect of the kingdom of God, namely keeping his commandments.

[Praxeas]

Jesus Christ is very concerned about his commandments. Notice I said HIS COMMANDMENTS. I am not at all writing about the commandments of men but those things which he himself has instructed his disciples.

28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:19-20

The way he sees it your desire toward him (his person) is directly related to what you do with his commandments.

5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3

I certainly am not what this forum would consider an "ultra con" but to be fair there is another side of what you are saying. There are plenty of Churches and Teachers out there who are THINKING that they emphasize the person of Jesus and MUCH of their doctrine is simply to minimize this important aspect of the kingdom of God, namely keeping his commandments.
So do you have any comment on what I DID post?

[Michael The Disciple]

So are you in agreement with what I said? I said what I said because some will probably blur the line between the commandments and teachings of Jesus and those of men.

[Praxeas]

Anyone want to discuss the topic?

[CC1]

Prax, would you share with us a little bit of your religous journey? I am curious as to whether or not your views on this subject have evolved or changed over the years and if so in what way.

[Praxeas]

Prax, would you share with us a little bit of your religous journey? I am curious as to whether or not your views on this subject have evolved or changed over the years and if so in what way.
That would take a long time lol. But the short stick is, yes, my views have evolved over the years.

Just a little tidbit but I remember asking someone in my church about what they thought of Justification..."What's that?" was the reply.

My current Pastor (UPC) teaches on justfication and has taught a lot from Romans. I am glad for that, but my "Journey" started a long time before that.

Anyways maybe I can say more later. Im pressed for time

[hometown guy]

Hmmm. I guess I've been going to the wrong kind of UC church.
That could have been taken from any of several sermons I've heard my pastor preach.
The only thing that I would add is that inside cleansing will be reflected on the outside.

Sounds like my church too.......infact in sounds like most UC churches i have been to.........

[kclee4jc]

Sounds like my church too.......infact in sounds like most UC churches i have been to.........

I don't particularly care for the label ultra con. i suppose those that use the label to describe us are probably fully aware of the fact that it is not favored by thos of us who take a more conservative stance. I will say that i attend a very conservative church as far as standards go, and standards is a topic that is seldom preached. My pastor spends great time preaching on prayer, soul winning, sacrifice, and relationship with God. Occasionally he will preach on certain standards as he feels need to. I have attended many WPF conferences and i can say that i have met some wonderful, godly ppl who are in love with Jesus Christ. Yes, standards are preached. There is a great emphasis on doctrinal purity and truth. The greatest emphasis in all the services and conferences i have attended have been a love for Jesus Christ and desire to do what pleases him, and most of all, the need for AN INTIMATE AND CONSISTANT PRAYER LIFE! Label us what you will. Perhaps some preach what they do to cover up for what is lacking in other areas..my experience does not testify to this though. I have been introduced to ppl in the last few years that love Jesus and want to do His will. There is a mighty annointing that rests upon these brethren and it testifies to their sincerity.

[hometown guy]

I don't particularly care for the label ultra con. i suppose those that use the label to describe us are probably fully aware of the fact that it is not favored by thos of us who take a more conservative stance. I will say that i attend a very conservative church as far as standards go, and standards is a topic that is seldom preached. My pastor spends great time preaching on prayer, soul winning, sacrifice, and relationship with God. Occasionally he will preach on certain standards as he feels need to. I have attended many WPF conferences and i can say that i have met some wonderful, godly ppl who are in love with Jesus Christ. Yes, standards are preached. There is a great emphasis on doctrinal purity and truth. The greatest emphasis in all the services and conferences i have attended have been a love for Jesus Christ and desire to do what pleases him, and most of all, the need for AN INTIMATE AND CONSISTANT PRAYER LIFE! Label us what you will. Perhaps some preach what they do to cover up for what is lacking in other areas..my experience does not testify to this though. I have been introduced to ppl in the last few years that love Jesus and want to do His will. There is a mighty annointing that rests upon these brethren and it testifies to their sincerity.

I think the problem is that some of more liberal people come to some conservative conferences ( where its more for the saint then the sinner although it’s a good time anytime for someone to get the HG) and that’s what they may hear preached but if they would go to our local assembly they would find that its not preached very often at all

[berkeley]

Ha... I know UC's that refer to themselves as such. I was told by an UC that God honors the closer walk with HIM that the UC has. I wanted to laugh. He was completely serious.

[kclee4jc]

I think the problem is that some of more liberal people come to some conservative conferences ( where its more for the saint then the sinner although it’s a good time anytime for someone to get the HG) and that’s what they may hear preached but if they would go to our local assembly they would find that its not preached very often at all

That's really a good point. I know in the past that the preaching of standards at conferences has been frowned upon. What I am seeing in more recent fellowship meetings i think is very positive because we are more open and it allows us to be on the same page. It brings us to the same level. I attended East Coast conference in Durham this past year. Of course there was some preaching on standards, however that was not the dominating subject of the conference. 19 received the Holy Ghost. I watched one young lady attend 3 services and watched as the skepticism melted away with each service. In the last service she was in the altar and received the Holy Ghost beautifully. You could see complete transformation on her face. I would like for some of those who criticize our stance to attend some of our services, i am sure that the power of God would convince them of God's favor on what we are doing. His Spirit is leading His church. But the only ones that will hear him will be "those that have an ear".

[Praxeas]

I think the problem is that some of more liberal people come to some conservative conferences ( where its more for the saint then the sinner although it’s a good time anytime for someone to get the HG) and that’s what they may hear preached but if they would go to our local assembly they would find that its not preached very often at all
The irony here is that churches that don't preach standards very often, yet still hold them, have been labeled liberal and those pastors that seldom preach standards have been labeled charismatic. I don't understand that

[hometown guy]

The irony here is that churches that don't preach standards very often, yet still hold them, have been labeled liberal and those pastors that seldom preach standards have been labeled charismatic. I don't understand that

Nobody calls my church liberal.

[Praxeas]

Nobody calls my church liberal.
That's my point

[hometown guy]

That's my point

That is my point also... It has been a long while now since the last time I have heard standards preached from a local church setting.

[Praxeas]

That is my point also... It has been a long while now since the last time I have heard standards preached from a local church setting.
Well Im glad to hear that. Im curious though. You have not posted on this forum much in a long long time. Yet the first post I can recall you posting recently was a negative comment about TV and then the thread on how if anyone listens to any kind of secular music they are not a Christian.

Maybe you can see how some might think you hear more rules and regulation type preaching?

In fact, from past experience those topics seem to have been mostly what you engaged in here on this forum.

Are there any other topics you like to discuss? What are some of the non rules and regulation messages your pastor has taught?

[Praxeas]

Hey HTG, it's late and I gotta hit the sack. It was good talking with you. Maybe we can get together some time for coffee

[hometown guy]

Well Im glad to hear that. Im curious though. You have not posted on this forum much in a long long time. Yet the first post I can recall you posting recently was a negative comment about TV and then the thread on how if anyone listens to any kind of secular music they are not a Christian.

Maybe you can see how some might think you hear more rules and regulation type preaching?

In fact, from past experience those topics seem to have been mostly what you engaged in here on this forum.

Are there any other topics you like to discuss? What are some of the non rules and regulation messages your pastor has taught?

I'll admit, on the form it is fun to stir the pot but as you pointed out, I can see how it can back fire by doing so.

[hometown guy]

Hey HTG, it's late and I gotta hit the sack. It was good talking with you. Maybe we can get together some time for coffee

Sounds like a good idea, I'll take you up on that offer.

[RandyWayne]

I'll admit, on the form it is fun to stir the pot but as you pointed out, I can see how it can back fire by doing so.

Honesty!! I like it! :thumbsup

In truth, most people are closet pot stirrers from time to time. LOL

[Michael The Disciple]

Lets get more specific. Can we spell out what "standards" are being discussed? Maybe whats a standard in one Church may not be in another. If its a "Bible standard" isnt it ok?

[kclee4jc]

Lets get more specific. Can we spell out what "standards" are being discussed? Maybe whats a standard in one Church may not be in another. If its a "Bible standard" isnt it ok?

I think probably the most common biblical standards are:

Short hair on men uncut on ladies. I know its been debated here often but its
bible.

Modesty. Also scriptural. I believe the pastor has a right here to decide what is modest and what is not.

Not wearing jewelry (including wedding rings). Also scriptural.

Avoiding certain worldly environments and amusements.

I dont know if i would refer to it as a standard but it is an expectation that my pastor has is that the members of our church would fast at least one day a week. I'm sure no one hear would debate the scriptural validity of fasting.

Thats brief and not really detailed. Maybe i'll post again later.

[Michael The Disciple]

I think probably the most common biblical standards are:

Short hair on men uncut on ladies. I know its been debated here often but its
bible.

Modesty. Also scriptural. I believe the pastor has a right here to decide what is modest and what is not.

Not wearing jewelry (including wedding rings). Also scriptural.

Avoiding certain worldly environments and amusements.

I dont know if i would refer to it as a standard but it is an expectation that my pastor has is that the members of our church would fast at least one day a week. I'm sure no one hear would debate the scriptural validity of fasting.

Thats brief and not really detailed. Maybe i'll post again later.

Hi kc,

Thanks for your reply. Short hair on men? Yes generally speaking sure. Uncut on ladies? I did not notice that in the Bible. I did notice Paul saying LONG HAIR was a womans glory. I think that should be taught.

I looked up the word "long" in the Strongs and it says "to have long hair". So since "uncut" is not instructed by Yeshua nor the apostles I would have to disagree.

Modesty is pretty safe to teach and of course is iron clad in scripture. If any specifics are laid out in scripture about a given thing that should be the rule. If its not specific best course of action for someone committed to discipleship would be check with the Elders.

The wearing of jewelry would be in the same category to me as wearing costly clothes. Nice new suits and expensive dresses?

Wisdom would dictate to avoid certain enviroments and amusements for sure.

Fasting is a definite part of being a disciple. I dont think it would be right to demand it be done at certain times but left to the individual because of details the Pastor/Elder may not be aware of in the persons schedule.

I think the true standard for all Christians is "Be perfect even as the Father in Heaven is perfect".

Let us run to and not away from the commandments of the Lord.

[hometown guy]

Lets get more specific. Can we spell out what "standards" are being discussed? Maybe whats a standard in one Church may not be in another. If its a "Bible standard" isnt it ok?

Standards are different from church to church but biblical holiness is the same in any church that preaches truth

[hometown guy]

I think probably the most common biblical standards are:

Short hair on men uncut on ladies. I know its been debated here often but its
bible.

Modesty. Also scriptural. I believe the pastor has a right here to decide what is modest and what is not.

Not wearing jewelry (including wedding rings). Also scriptural.

Avoiding certain worldly environments and amusements.

I dont know if i would refer to it as a standard but it is an expectation that my pastor has is that the members of our church would fast at least one day a week. I'm sure no one hear would debate the scriptural validity of fasting.

Thats brief and not really detailed. Maybe i'll post again later.

Very good:thumbsup

[sandie]

It's actually scriptural that wedding rings are banned?
Where does it say that?

That's over the top, imo. Wedding rings let other people know that person is married: back off and it's a symbol of fidelity.

*sigh*....there's so much asked of people that's totally un-necessary.

[jfrog]

It's actually scriptural that wedding rings are banned?
Where does it say that?

That's over the top, imo. Wedding rings let other people know that person is married: back off and it's a symbol of fidelity.

*sigh*....there's so much asked of people that's totally un-necessary.

It's a point of consistency and I admire that. If they are going to say no necklaces because they are Gold then why would they allow gold wedding rings especially if they believe the bible is against people wearing gold?

[Tina]

It's actually scriptural that wedding rings are banned?
Where does it say that?

That's over the top, imo. Wedding rings let other people know that person is married: back off and it's a symbol of fidelity.

*sigh*....there's so much asked of people that's totally un-necessary.

A symbol of fidelity? That is funny. I guess I've seen too many married men who slip off those rings and drop them in their pockets when they are away from their wives. Yes... even "apostolic" men.

Appearances can be deceiving.... people aren't always what they seem. Wedding band or no wedding band. A person's behavior would tell more about the relationship than a ring.

[RandyWayne]

A symbol of fidelity? That is funny. I guess I've seen too many married men who slip off those rings and drop them in their pockets when they are away from their wives. Yes... even "apostolic" men.

Appearances can be deceiving.... people aren't always what they seem. Wedding band or no wedding band. A person's behavior would tell more about the relationship than a ring.

You made your own point. I never take mine off and wouldn't do it for a pastor or church member who asked me to -because I would rather offend THEM then my wife with the understanding that 98% of the time someone is "offended" it isn't because it causes them to stumble, it is just that they disagree with something or are angry you don't feel the same way.

[Theophil]

Ha... I know UC's that refer to themselves as such. I was told by an UC that God honors the closer walk with HIM that the UC has. I wanted to laugh. He was completely serious.

Of course he was. Pharisees always feel like they are closer to God than others because of their law keeping.

[hometown guy]

Of course he was. Pharisees always feel like they are closer to God than others because of their law keeping.

The pharisees had the right message but their heart was wrong. Jesus encouraged us to live what they preached.

[Praxeas]

Sounds like a good idea, I'll take you up on that offer.
Cool. Maybe when I don't need a boat to go outside :thumbsup

[CC1]

The pharisees had the right message but their heart was wrong. Jesus encouraged us to live what they preached.

I am always looking to be entrepreneurial and a business idea just popped into my head reading your post.

If I were to invest in manufacturing some really cool wooden boxes with scriptures on them for you conservatives to wear on your heads, do you think you could get me a table to sell them at some of the conservative conferences?

At the same table we could offer the Pentecostal / Apostolic Burqa that will take the short sleeve issue off the table once and for all.

If you can get me access to the conservative market I am willing to pay a commission!

[hometown guy]

Cool. Maybe when I don't need a boat to go outside :thumbsup

lol

[OneAccord]

Good post, Prax. I was reading about the early Oneness Movemnet and it seems they felt the need to distinquish themselves from their Pentecotsal cousins, the trinitarian Pentecostals. The Godhead and Acts 2;38 were used as wedges to differentaite bewteen the two movements. Both sides worked feverishly to build the wall between the two groups. The wall finished, the trinitarians moved on to further the cause, which resulted into what became known as the Healing movemnet (ironically led by, in large part a "semi-Oneness" preacher named William Branham.

The Oneness folks seems to have not given up the fight. They continue to emphasize the Godhead doctrine and Acts 2:38. And they came to add the "holiness standards'. And now, with no more enemies to fight, the Oneness folks continue the fight, but now its among themselves. The Oneness camp is being bracketed with denominational walls. And its being neatly carved up into a pie of conservatism and liberalism.

All the while, the work God has called us to do goes neglected. And the enemy peeks over the wall and and laughs gleefully.

[Michael The Disciple]

Good post, Prax. I was reading about the early Oneness Movemnet and it seems they felt the need to distinquish themselves from their Pentecotsal cousins, the trinitarian Pentecostals. The Godhead and Acts 2;38 were used as wedges to differentaite bewteen the two movements. Both sides worked feverishly to build the wall between the two groups. The wall finished, the trinitarians moved on to further the cause, which resulted into what became known as the Healing movemnet (ironically led by, in large part a "semi-Oneness" preacher named William Branham.

The Oneness folks seems to have not given up the fight. They continue to emphasize the Godhead doctrine and Acts 2:38. And they came to add the "holiness standards'. And now, with no more enemies to fight, the Oneness folks continue the fight, but now its among themselves. The Oneness camp is being bracketed with denominational walls. And its being neatly carved up into a pie of conservatism and liberalism.

All the while, the work God has called us to do goes neglected. And the enemy peeks over the wall and and laughs gleefully.

Unbelievable. To you the stand on Oneness and Acts 2:38 is so we can distinguish ourselves from others?

Well there may be some warped souls who think like that.

However the truth is we emphasize these doctrines because they are taught to us by the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is his doctrine therefore it is ours.

I would be happy if all our "Pentecostal cousins" were to believe it. I am not trying to distinguish myself from anyone. Just trying to be faithful and obedient to the teachings of the Messiah.

As the Apostle John said:

I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. John 3:4

[kclee4jc]

I am always looking to be entrepreneurial and a business idea just popped into my head reading your post.

If I were to invest in manufacturing some really cool wooden boxes with scriptures on them for you conservatives to wear on your heads, do you think you could get me a table to sell them at some of the conservative conferences?

At the same table we could offer the Pentecostal / Apostolic Burqa that will take the short sleeve issue off the table once and for all.

If you can get me access to the conservative market I am willing to pay a commission!

I think most true holiness ppl have no desire to flaunt anything. Just reflect Jesus. And yes...being modest and separate from the world reflects Jesus. Do all 'conservatives' reflect Jesus? NO! I have seen some on this forum that have been an embarassment to myself and other Apostolic Holiness ppl. However, that doesn't make what God has done for us or our desire for Him void. And for the record...i dont believe I am close to God because of standards. I just wanna follow the Spirit...and my Bible tells me that when the enemy comes in like a flood the Spirit will raise the standard. Not lower it.

[sandie]

It's a point of consistency and I admire that. If they are going to say no necklaces because they are Gold then why would they allow gold wedding rings especially if they believe the bible is against people wearing gold?

The wedding ring doesn't have to be made out of gold, there are other metals and not all rings are "costly".

It's a custom and a lovely one at that.

[sandie]

A symbol of fidelity? That is funny. I guess I've seen too many married men who slip off those rings and drop them in their pockets when they are away from their wives. Yes... even "apostolic" men.

Wow, I'm sorry you've been around that much infidelity.

Appearances can be deceiving.... people aren't always what they seem. Wedding band or no wedding band. A person's behavior would tell more about the relationship than a ring.

I think that goes without saying. A ring isn't going to make a person decent and honorable on the inside, but that's not what I was talking about.

[sandie]

You made your own point. I never take mine off and wouldn't do it for a pastor or church member who asked me to -because I would rather offend THEM then my wife with the understanding that 98% of the time someone is "offended" it isn't because it causes them to stumble, it is just that they disagree with something or are angry you don't feel the same way.

:thumbsup

[CC1]

I think most true holiness ppl have no desire to flaunt anything. Just reflect Jesus. And yes...being modest and separate from the world reflects Jesus. Do all 'conservatives' reflect Jesus? NO! I have seen some on this forum that have been an embarassment to myself and other Apostolic Holiness ppl. However, that doesn't make what God has done for us or our desire for Him void. And for the record...i dont believe I am close to God because of standards. I just wanna follow the Spirit...and my Bible tells me that when the enemy comes in like a flood the Spirit will raise the standard. Not lower it.

Kleenex, I appreciate your good spirit and glad you are not taking offense at some good natured ribbing from someone who does not share you view. God Bless you!

[The Lemon]

hmmm...priorities, this thread has alot of potential for more good discussion. What I have found interesting about the very subject of priorities is just how subjective it can be! Seriously, if we all were to actually list from greatest to least in order of importance, there would truly be alot of diversity on what should go where.

One thing I remember teaching years ago was that who you are in Christ and what you do for Christ are not the same thing. That is to say, works do not equal relationship..now, at the same time, you can't really have a relationship and not have any works either - sort of like faith without works being dead..all alone. What I have experienced over the years is that some folks, if not careful (and yes this includes me), will equate what they do for God as being the same as relationship with him, but that is a mistake.

Anyway...I'm off my soapbox.

[Pressing-On]

hmmm...priorities, this thread has alot of potential for more good discussion. What I have found interesting about the very subject of priorities is just how subjective it can be! Seriously, if we all were to actually list from greatest to least in order of importance, there would truly be alot of diversity on what should go where.

One thing I remember teaching years ago was that who you are in Christ and what you do for Christ are not the same thing. That is to say, works do not equal relationship..now, at the same time, you can't really have a relationship and not have any works either - sort of like faith without works being dead..all alone. What I have experienced over the years is that some folks, if not careful (and yes this includes me), will equate what they do for God as being the same as relationship with him, but that is a mistake.

Anyway...I'm off my soapbox.
I agree. Many times, I don't think some realize they are doing that very thing.

I've been there, doing the Martha, when I needed to bring in some of Mary to balance it out. I was so busy doing, that I wasn't spending enough quality time alone with God. I was so busy doing the good things, that I didn't even realize I needed to slow down.

He does have a way of getting our attention.

I went to a Ladies Retreat and could feel God wanted to speak to me about something. The very last speaker, on the very last day, spoke about Martha and Mary and that is when God allowed me to know where I was and what I was doing.

He is faithful to redirect us. I have never forgotten that lesson.