View Full Version : Sister Wives
Anybody seen Sister Wives? It is about a Mormon guy who has 4 wives. It is really interesting to watch, in my opinion. I do think though, in this day and age, when gays with kids are accepted and it's "okay" to marry 4 women as long as it's not all at the same time, that these people should be given a break. They do this because they were raised this way (most of them) and taught that it is the right thing to do, religion wise. I don't think the law should break them up. (Although after reading a number of books on the FLDS, I do agree with the raid they did....if not how they did it.)
jfrog
03-22-2011, 09:30 AM
Why would any woman want to marry a man while he was still with his first wife?
onefaith2
03-22-2011, 09:40 AM
I've always considered this. I wonder if the reason most Abrahamic religions are against this today is because the lessons learned in the OT between Abraham, Jacob, etc. They have some serious trouble with having multiple wives and each wife had some serious trouble with the other wives.
Pressing-On
03-22-2011, 09:41 AM
Another television program to heap confusion on our broken society. Does this program air before or after Glee? :icecream
Why would any woman want to marry a man while he was still with his first wife?
Because their religion says that they have to be polygamous to be saved.
jfrog
03-22-2011, 09:43 AM
Because their religion says that they have to be polygamous to be saved.
Does it? I don't think it does?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_fundamentalism
Another of the most basic beliefs of Mormon fundamentalist groups is that of plural marriage, which many of them view as essential for obtaining the highest degree of exaltation in the celestial kingdom. Mormon fundamentalists dislike the term polygamy and view polygyny as a term used only by outsiders.[6] They also refer to plural marriage generically as "the Principle", "celestial marriage",[18] "the New and Everlasting Covenant", or "the Priesthood Work".[6]
The practice of plural marriage usually differs little from the manner in which it was practiced in the nineteenth century. However, in some fundamentalist sects it is considered acceptable for an older man to marry underage girls as soon as they attain puberty. This practice, which is illegal in most states, apart from polygamy itself, has generated public controversy. Examples include the Tom Green case, and the case in which a man from the Kingston clan married his 15-year-old cousin, who was also his aunt.[19] Other sects, however, do not practice and may in fact vehemently denounce underage or forced marriages and incest (for example, the Apostolic United Brethren.)
I imagine this "belief" was pretty handy for the men who invented it. However, now, they are raised this way, whether they like it or not.
jfrog
03-22-2011, 09:49 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_fundamentalism
Another of the most basic beliefs of Mormon fundamentalist groups is that of plural marriage, which many of them view as essential for obtaining the highest degree of exaltation in the celestial kingdom. Mormon fundamentalists dislike the term polygamy and view polygyny as a term used only by outsiders.[6] They also refer to plural marriage generically as "the Principle", "celestial marriage",[18] "the New and Everlasting Covenant", or "the Priesthood Work".[6]
The practice of plural marriage usually differs little from the manner in which it was practiced in the nineteenth century. However, in some fundamentalist sects it is considered acceptable for an older man to marry underage girls as soon as they attain puberty. This practice, which is illegal in most states, apart from polygamy itself, has generated public controversy. Examples include the Tom Green case, and the case in which a man from the Kingston clan married his 15-year-old cousin, who was also his aunt.[19] Other sects, however, do not practice and may in fact vehemently denounce underage or forced marriages and incest (for example, the Apostolic United Brethren.)
Interesting.
Twisp
03-22-2011, 09:50 AM
Anybody seen Sister Wives? It is about a Mormon guy who has 4 wives. It is really interesting to watch, in my opinion. I do think though, in this day and age, when gays with kids are accepted and it's "okay" to marry 4 women as long as it's not all at the same time, that these people should be given a break. They do this because they were raised this way (most of them) and taught that it is the right thing to do, religion wise. I don't think the law should break them up. (Although after reading a number of books on the FLDS, I do agree with the raid they did....if not how they did it.)
My wife and I watched the first couple of episodes of it, being as we are big fans of the HBO series "Big Love". It was interesting, but neither of us are big into reality shows outside of the Duggers and the Little People, Big World show.
I think it should be available to consenting adults, if they so choose to practice it. It might create some headaches in terms of paperwork, but I don't see a reason to not allow it.
Does it? I don't think it does?
Quick search pulled up this:
The Book of Mormon, translated in 1829, makes mention of polygamy and, while it forbids polygamy for the population extant during the stewardship of the prophet Jacob, it recognizes that sometimes God commands men to practice polygamy.
Jacob 2:27-29 reads:
Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes (Jacob 2:27-29).
Anti-Mormons and other critics of Mormonism see this passage as contradictory to later Mormon teachings, but such critics fail to quote the next verse, which explains the conditions under which polygamy may be practiced:
For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things (Jacob 2:30).
Polygamy is thus to be practiced as a religious principle and only when commanded by God. It should never be employed to gratify lusts and can only be practiced properly under God’s direction and for his purposes.
Link to the site and the rest of the article:
http://www.mormon-polygamy.org/origins_mormon_polygamy
I was quoting from Mormon Fundamentalism, which is different from the mainstream Mormon religion. I think there are people all over the spectrum on the polygamy issue, but the fundamentalists are expected to practice it in order to be truly "holy".
Pressing-On
03-22-2011, 10:07 AM
I imagine this "belief" was pretty handy for the men who invented it. However, now, they are raised this way, whether they like it or not.
Yes, I would say so. Perhaps they could make some additional money by endorsing Viagra. :heeheehee
Yes, I would say so. Perhaps they could make some additional money by endorsing Viagra. :heeheehee
LOL! Yeah, right!!
What I am really opposed to is the forced polygamous marriages. Even when they are 18 and can say "Yes, I want to marry that old, fat 50 year old guy".
In Sister Wives, at least they are all around the same age and seem to be fairly satisfied in their lifestyle.
NotforSale
03-22-2011, 10:14 AM
I'm not an advocate of Polygamy in any form. The family unit suffers and abuse is prominent in this Culture. Below is a link (video) showing the very sobering facts about this lifestyle that breeds dysfunction and heartbreak.
This is one of the best documentaries I've ever seen on the subject.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7652620562849262422#
Pressing-On
03-22-2011, 10:15 AM
LOL! Yeah, right!!
What I am really opposed to is the forced polygamous marriages. Even when they are 18 and can say "Yes, I want to marry that old, fat 50 year old guy".
I agree - yuck! I'd have to take a razor blade into the bathtub with me. Of course, after I tried to escape. LOL!
In Sister Wives, at least they are all around the same age and seem to be fairly satisfied in their lifestyle.
I'm opposed to a television show opening more confusion into our society. Next they will have a show marrying their favorite animal.
I agree with you. However, what do you do with a family where a guy has 4 wives and they've all lived together and created a reasonably stable home for the children? Should this be illegal? Should they be forced apart because of their religious practices?
Pressing-On
03-22-2011, 10:17 AM
I'm not an advocate of Polygamy in any form. The family unit suffers and abuse is prominent in this Culture. Below is a link (video) showing the very sobering facts about this lifestyle that breeds dysfunction and heartbreak.
This is one of the best documentaries I've ever seen on the subject.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7652620562849262422#
I'll have to view it later, but appreciate the referenced link. :thumbsup
I agree - yuck! I'd have to take a razor blade into the bathtub with me. Of course, after I tried to escape. LOL!
I'm opposed to a television show opening more confusion into our society. Next they will have a show marrying their favorite animal.
Which is worse? The people who've been married 4 times to different people and slept with who knows how many in between? Or a relatively moral, religious family that is stable but polygamous?
Pressing-On
03-22-2011, 10:19 AM
I agree with you. However, what do you do with a family where a guy has 4 wives and they've all lived together and created a reasonably stable home for the children? Should this be illegal? Should they be forced apart because of their religious practices?
We have freedom of religion, so we can't really do anything about it. It's the same with Fred Phelps' group. You quash our First Amendment rights, we all suffer. So, we have to take the good with the bad.
It is one way to solidify scripture and have a teaching moment. That's the only good I can see coming from these groups.
Pressing-On
03-22-2011, 10:21 AM
Which is worse? The people who've been married 4 times to different people and slept with who knows how many in between? Or a relatively moral, religious family that is stable but polygamous?
I'm of the one man, one woman mentality. No matter how many times you did it, do it one at a time. I've always had difficulty in juggling two at a time. Something has to give. LOL!
Pressing-On
03-22-2011, 10:24 AM
Gotta run, ILG. Just wanted to say that I always enjoy conversing with you. Even in some areas that we don't agree, I enjoy the interesting conversations. :thumbsup
Gotta run, ILG. Just wanted to say that I always enjoy conversing with you. Even in some areas that we don't agree, I enjoy the interesting conversations. :thumbsup
LOL! Thanks, PO.
I guess I would rather see a polygamous, reasonably stable family than one who switches partners like socks! I think it is a more stable environment to raise kids. However, I don't like the idea that they are pressured to be polygamous under a religious guise. If they truly have a choice that may be one thing, but I do not believe an 18 year old who is told she must marry a 50 year old guy as his 4th wife to make it into the celestial kingdom is really choosing anything.
Hoovie
03-22-2011, 10:55 AM
Do the women in these marriages have a say about who joins them in the marriage?
Also, do they all have a common bed?
onefaith2
03-22-2011, 11:06 AM
Do the women in these marriages have a say about who joins them in the marriage?
Also, do they all have a common bed?
according to what I read each wife has their own room and he spends times with each of them.
Do the women in these marriages have a say about who joins them in the marriage?
Also, do they all have a common bed?
In the Sister Wives video, they all did have a say. In the more rigid religions, even the man does not have a say....they are "assigned" wives by the prophet. I really oppose that.
No, they are separate. :)
Pressing-On
03-22-2011, 11:12 AM
LOL! Thanks, PO.
I meant that as a compliment. We have disagreed on various issues in the past, but I always like enjoying who I am conversing with while I am disagreeing. Don't you? LOL!
I guess I would rather see a polygamous, reasonably stable family than one who switches partners like socks! I think it is a more stable environment to raise kids. However, I don't like the idea that they are pressured to be polygamous under a religious guise. If they truly have a choice that may be one thing, but I do not believe an 18 year old who is told she must marry a 50 year old guy as his 4th wife to make it into the celestial kingdom is really choosing anything.
I don't see a difference in changing socks (multiple partners) and changing bedrooms in the same house. That doesn't seem very stable to me. It may be a learned behaviour for them, but it isn't stable, IMO.
Okay, done with lunch. Just wanted to respond. :D
I meant that as a compliment. We have disagreed on various issues in the past, but I always like enjoying who I am conversing with while I am disagreeing. Don't you? LOL!
I guess I would rather see a polygamous, reasonably stable family than one who switches partners like socks! I think it is a more stable environment to raise kids. However, I don't like the idea that they are pressured to be polygamous under a religious guise. If they truly have a choice that may be one thing, but I do not believe an 18 year old who is told she must marry a 50 year old guy as his 4th wife to make it into the celestial kingdom is really choosing anything.
I don't see a difference in changing socks and changing bedrooms in the same house. That doesn't seem very stable to me. It may be a learned behaviour for them, but it isn't stable, IMO.
Okay, done with lunch. Just wanted to respond. :D
I guess my opinion is, in some cases, like the Sister Wives, where they choose and are close to the same age, I don't think they should be torn apart by law. However, where they are "assigned" spouses at a young age to a much older man etc.......they will still say they "chose" but I do not believe it. I am not sure how law could oppose one and not the other though.
Pressing-On
03-22-2011, 11:19 AM
I guess my opinion is, in some cases, like the Sister Wives, where they choose and are close to the same age, I don't think they should be torn apart by law. However, where they are "assigned" spouses at a young age to a much older man etc.......they will still say they "chose" but I do not believe it. I am not sure how law could oppose one and not the other though.
Well, like I said, we have protection under our First Amendment rights. I don't know where they will draw the line on having sex with your favorite pet for religious purposes in the future. It's just a downward spiral.
Hoovie
03-22-2011, 11:25 AM
according to what I read each wife has their own room and he spends times with each of them.
In the Sister Wives video, they all did have a say. In the more rigid religions, even the man does not have a say....they are "assigned" wives by the prophet. I really oppose that.
No, they are separate. :)
Kewl. Are the membership dues pretty high?
j/k!
onefaith2
03-22-2011, 11:26 AM
Well, like I said, we have protection under our First Amendment rights. I don't know where they will draw the line on having sex with your favorite pet for religious purposes in the future. It's just a downward spiral.
In one sense we maybe could see a downward spiral on what is considered religious freedom. In another sense though they are cracking down on religious free speech and calling it hate crimes.
Well, like I said, we have protection under our First Amendment rights. I don't know where they will draw the line on having sex with your favorite pet for religious purposes in the future. It's just a downward spiral.
LOL! Well, I can only say, that is a different subject. Not one I have thought too much about nor care to. :)
Kewl. Are the membership dues pretty high?
j/k!
Very high, from what I understand. :) Although this guy has one wife take care of all the kids while the rest work, so it's probably not too bad. There is probably a link to contact them if you want to convert.
Twisp
03-22-2011, 11:48 AM
Well, like I said, we have protection under our First Amendment rights. I don't know where they will draw the line on having sex with your favorite pet for religious purposes in the future. It's just a downward spiral.
Well, an animal can't be a consenting adult, so there is a clear line there.
Hoovie
03-22-2011, 11:49 AM
Very high, from what I understand. :) Although this guy has one wife take care of all the kids while the rest work, so it's probably not too bad. There is probably a link to contact them if you want to convert.
I'll just say it's "intriguing" and leave it at that!
I'll just say it's "intriguing" and leave it at that!
Yeah, I think to get into the club, your first wife has to be brainwashed into thinking she won't get into the celestial heaven without it. ;)
Stephanas
03-22-2011, 11:54 AM
Anybody seen Sister Wives? It is about a Mormon guy who has 4 wives. It is really interesting to watch, in my opinion. I do think though, in this day and age, when gays with kids are accepted and it's "okay" to marry 4 women as long as it's not all at the same time, that these people should be given a break. They do this because they were raised this way (most of them) and taught that it is the right thing to do, religion wise. I don't think the law should break them up. (Although after reading a number of books on the FLDS, I do agree with the raid they did....if not how they did it.)
The public polygamy debate is all about the money.
Are all four wives entitled to full spousal benefits on the death of the husband?
How many immigrant wives can one man bring into the country? Or, more to the question, how many immigrant husbands can one woman bring into the country?
So, if this guy with 4 wives has a "revelation" that his doctrine is wrong, what should he do?
The public polygamy debate is all about the money.
Are all four wives entitled to full spousal benefits on the death of the husband?
How many immigrant wives can one man bring into the country? Or, more to the question, how many immigrant husbands can one woman bring into the country?
He is only legally married to one, but four in the eyes of his church.
NotforSale
03-22-2011, 12:12 PM
LOL! Thanks, PO.
I guess I would rather see a polygamous, reasonably stable family than one who switches partners like socks! I think it is a more stable environment to raise kids. However, I don't like the idea that they are pressured to be polygamous under a religious guise. If they truly have a choice that may be one thing, but I do not believe an 18 year old who is told she must marry a 50 year old guy as his 4th wife to make it into the celestial kingdom is really choosing anything.
Not sure if you had the chance to watch the Documentary that I posted, but this film is chock full of personal testimonies of men and women who were polygamists, and children of polygamists, and how breaking free from this bondage was a pure nightmare.
I never realized the depth of dysfunction in these groups until I viewed this program. There are so many problems within this lifestyle and the shocking realities left me stunned for days.
Sexual abuse of children, Fathers not knowing the names of their own children, jealousy between the Sister Wives, fear motivating the women to never leave, women marrying men old enough to be their father, and the trauma of those who decided to break free are only some of the extreme dilemmas these people faced.
Comparing monogamous marriages to polygamy is not a good parallel, and in fact is all the more reason to keep marriage between one man and one woman. Polygamy only spirals the Family unit into further disarray and brokenness, and in no wise is a good alternative. In many respects, I see this alternative (Polygamy) no different than Gay Marriage.
Not sure if you had the chance to watch the Documentary that I posted, but this film is chock full of personal testimonies of men and women who were polygamists, and children of polygamists, and how breaking free from this bondage was a pure nightmare.
I never realized the depth of dysfunction in these groups until I viewed this program. There are so many problems within this lifestyle and the shocking realities left me stunned for days.
Sexual abuse of children, Fathers not knowing the names of their own children, jealousy between the Sister Wives, fear motivating the women to never leave, women marrying men old enough to be their father, and the trauma of those who decided to break free are only some of the extreme dilemmas these people faced.
Comparing monogamous marriages to polygamy is not a good parallel, and in fact is all the more reason to keep marriage between one man and one woman. Polygamy only spirals the Family unit into further disarray and brokenness, and in no wise is a good alternative. In many respects, I see this alternative (Polygamy) no different than Gay Marriage.
I didn't get a chance to watch it yet, but probably will tonight. Thanks for the link.
NotforSale
03-22-2011, 12:20 PM
I didn't get a chance to watch it yet, but probably will tonight. Thanks for the link.
:thumbsup
Pressing-On
03-22-2011, 02:32 PM
Well, an animal can't be a consenting adult, so there is a clear line there.
I guarantee that you could find an animal lover that would testify that their animal has rights and is in the same category as a consenting adult in a court of law.
"But, Your Honor! My poodle, Ziggy Stardust loves me!!!!" LOL! People are nuts!
aegsm76
03-22-2011, 02:49 PM
Not sure if you had the chance to watch the Documentary that I posted, but this film is chock full of personal testimonies of men and women who were polygamists, and children of polygamists, and how breaking free from this bondage was a pure nightmare.
I never realized the depth of dysfunction in these groups until I viewed this program. There are so many problems within this lifestyle and the shocking realities left me stunned for days.
Sexual abuse of children, Fathers not knowing the names of their own children, jealousy between the Sister Wives, fear motivating the women to never leave, women marrying men old enough to be their father, and the trauma of those who decided to break free are only some of the extreme dilemmas these people faced.
Comparing monogamous marriages to polygamy is not a good parallel, and in fact is all the more reason to keep marriage between one man and one woman. Polygamy only spirals the Family unit into further disarray and brokenness, and in no wise is a good alternative. In many respects, I see this alternative (Polygamy) no different than Gay Marriage.
I agree with this 100%.
Sure. No different than gay marriage. But people do all sorts of things that are winked at. Okay, maybe it should remain illegal. However, should kids be taken away from their families if they are polygamous if they check out all right?
I just started watching this video and I want to say that the FLDS followers who follow Warren Jeffs are an atrocious bunch. They have forced underage girls into horrific marriages. This does not seem to be the same group that Sister Wives are with. I am not sure of the differences but I do know the FLDS has strict dress codes. I have read a number of books on them and am glad that the state of Texas did the raid on the ranch. I think it needed to happen. The polygamists in Sister Wives seem a lot more casual. Warren Jeffs is an evil man.
aegsm76
03-22-2011, 07:09 PM
The US government forced the Mormons to change their stance on polygamy, at the point of a gun.
And, it was the right thing to do.
Now, if we redefine marriage as something different than one man and one woman, we need to apologize to the Mormons...
Very good video, NFS. It really describes WHY they are polygamous. I see there are tons of groups that have sprouted from Joseph Smith. The video does a good job of showing the ugly backside to the Mormon church and especially, Mormon fundamentalism. But, it still doesn't really address the issues I brought up. What do you do with people in these situations? I think maybe the best thing to do is pretty much what they do do....leave it illegal and use that against them if you need it and otherwise leave them alone.
I could see in the Sister Wives video, that they did have some denial of their feelings and that they were more "trying" to feel a certain way rather than that they actually felt certain ways. They all seemed to truly believe in what they were doing and thought it was right. It did bother me when he married the 4th and the women struggled so much. He seemed callous to their feelings, but what are you supposed to do when God wants you to do what your wives don't want? Pretty tough situations.
Here are a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLAgJipp7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvsVZdO6FJU
Cindy
03-22-2011, 08:41 PM
How are they not bigamists? Because it's a religious issue?
How are they not bigamists? Because it's a religious issue?
Well, I guess they are, but technically, I think bi means two and poly means more than two.
Hoovie
03-22-2011, 10:11 PM
Well, I guess they are, but technically, I think bi means two and poly means more than two.
I think she is asking how they are not illegal... And I think the answer is they simply avoid written and legal records of multiple wives.
Cindy
03-23-2011, 04:32 AM
Well, I guess they are, but technically, I think bi means two and poly means more than two.
:heeheehee
Brad Murphy
03-23-2011, 06:31 AM
One comment in the video stuck out to me because it hit close to home...
"I consciously chose to go to hell, rather than stay in the group."
Aquila
03-23-2011, 07:03 AM
I believe that Jesus expressly states that in the beginning God made them male and female… not male, female, female, female, female. So, this being said, I believe that God’s original design for man was monogamous.
However, God appears to have allowed, regulated, and even on some occasions, blessed and commanded polygamy in the OT. In the OT even concubines (mistresses) were acceptable in God’s sight. Most of the holiest men in Scripture had more than one wife with concubines. So it must not be “sin” per se. However, in the NT marriage is supposed to symbolize Christ and His church (a mystery Paul describes). This would exclude multiple husbands or multiple wives/mistresses because it would symbolize more than one Lord or more than one church. Therefore I believe that within the Christian church monogamy should be the standard. Jesus brought us back to the Father’s original intent.
Yet, one issue for me is (and I admit that I waffle here)… is it the GOVERNMENT’S job to regulate our personal and private choices, behaviors, and relationships if they are no threat to another’s life, liberty, or property? Is it the GOVERNMENT’S job to break up a polygamous Mormon or Muslim family? If it is their religion, social subculture, and their home is a stable home for their children… is it the GOVERNMENT’S job to break their home up and criminalize them? Would we criminalize Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
But what about the abuses? Certainly Government's role is to do something...
Anyways... those are my thoughts. lol
One comment in the video stuck out to me because it hit close to home...
"I consciously chose to go to hell, rather than stay in the group."
That struck me too....not because I did it, but because I have heard people say it and I've always wondered how people ended up there......When I first got out, I was kind of judgmental about that.....thinking that that was the "wrong" way to leave (sheesh that fundamentalist one way thinking was deep). Can you elaborate on your feelings on this?
Yes, my question has been the government's role. Ultimately, I voted that it should be illegal and kept underground. The reason I voted that is that there seems to be so much rampant abuse in the sects that the laws are needed to protect the abused. However, if there were no abuse, I would look the other way....
I think criminals should be jailed and by that I mean men like Warren Jeffs.
Brad Murphy
03-23-2011, 08:35 AM
That struck me too....not because I did it, but because I have heard people say it and I've always wondered how people ended up there......When I first got out, I was kind of judgmental about that.....thinking that that was the "wrong" way to leave (sheesh that fundamentalist one way thinking was deep). Can you elaborate on your feelings on this?
I'll send you an e-mail... I don't like getting too specific beyond quips or jabs with my real name :) I still owe you an e-mail from like a year ago. lol.
I'll send you an e-mail... I don't like getting too specific beyond quips or jabs with my real name :) I still owe you an e-mail from like a year ago. lol.
Okie-doke.
RandyWayne
03-23-2011, 09:39 AM
I'm curious. In certain Mormon circles where this is practiced and encouraged how is there supposed to be enough women to go around?
I'm curious. In certain Mormon circles where this is practiced and encouraged how is there supposed to be enough women to go around?
In the more closed societies, they find excuses for the boys to be kicked out. No joke. Their hair was 1/8th of an inch too long. Any reason and they are gone for convenience.
Cindy
03-23-2011, 10:33 AM
In the more closed societies, they find excuses for the boys to be kicked out. No joke. Their hair was 1/8th of an inch too long. Any reason and they are gone for convenience.
It seems very incestuous to me.
It seems very incestuous to me.
Yeah. It does seem to matter which group they are with though. Like in the video I put on here.....they seem to be fairly normal and of the same age. They also apparently choose their mates. But in the FLDS (where they did the raid in Texas), the prophet "assigns" spouses. It's sick. Little girls and old men. Even when they are close in age, they only find out shortly before the "wedding" who they are assigned to. Later on when things started getting sicker (after Warren Jeffs took over) wives and families could be "reassigned" when the men didn't toe the line. So, there seems to be a spectrum for sure.
Cindy
03-23-2011, 12:11 PM
Yeah. It does seem to matter which group they are with though. Like in the video I put on here.....they seem to be fairly normal and of the same age. They also apparently choose their mates. But in the FLDS (where they did the raid in Texas), the prophet "assigns" spouses. It's sick. Little girls and old men. Even when they are close in age, they only find out shortly before the "wedding" who they are assigned to. Later on when things started getting sicker (after Warren Jeffs took over) wives and families could be "reassigned" when the men didn't toe the line. So, there seems to be a spectrum for sure.
Yeah, people do all kinds of things in the name of religion.
Sister Alvear
03-23-2011, 12:30 PM
seems like Texas has a drawing power for cults...
berkeley
03-23-2011, 12:34 PM
In the more closed societies, they find excuses for the boys to be kicked out. No joke. Their hair was 1/8th of an inch too long. Any reason and they are gone for convenience.
It's not uncommon to find young men walking lonely Utah highways because they were kicked out. Have to save the young girls for the dirty old men.
NotforSale
03-23-2011, 12:59 PM
Very good video, NFS. It really describes WHY they are polygamous. I see there are tons of groups that have sprouted from Joseph Smith. The video does a good job of showing the ugly backside to the Mormon church and especially, Mormon fundamentalism. But, it still doesn't really address the issues I brought up. What do you do with people in these situations? I think maybe the best thing to do is pretty much what they do do....leave it illegal and use that against them if you need it and otherwise leave them alone.
I could see in the Sister Wives video, that they did have some denial of their feelings and that they were more "trying" to feel a certain way rather than that they actually felt certain ways. They all seemed to truly believe in what they were doing and thought it was right. It did bother me when he married the 4th and the women struggled so much. He seemed callous to their feelings, but what are you supposed to do when God wants you to do what your wives don't want? Pretty tough situations.
Glad you enjoyed the video. As far as dealing with the issue of Polygamy and Law, if there was a Polygamist camp outside of our town, I'm not sure it would be a good idea to go in there and break it up only because we disagree with what they are doing.
But, if abuse is discovered, that changes things entirely. To be honest, I think all of the camps suffer from sexual/mental abuse. The reason for this is simple; one man sleeping with several women creates an environment of promiscuity because the boundary of monogamy has been broken. When the simplicity of monogamy vanishes, sexual perversion will follow, and there’s no stopping a person from turning to the fallacies of someone like Solomon.
It would take valid testimonies from people within the camp to bring justice, just like the people who testified in the film, "Lifting the Veil of Polygamy". The problem is, manipulation runs so deep in these circles that fear becomes the controlling factor.
I also agree with your observation that the "Sister Wives" video reeked of denial. They make everyone look happy, without a serious one on one about the struggles of Polygamy. Also, it would be interesting to talk to the children, finding out the secrets of what goes on in these homes.
In the video I posted, these women talked about when they were kids, watching the father go into different rooms for sex. The women were also honest about how they felt about their husband sleeping with other women/wives, and how jealousy is in every Polygamist home; there is no way to avoid this.
For the clearest mental picture, just imagine your husband sleeping with another woman (women) in your own home.
Aquila
03-23-2011, 02:53 PM
Interesting article....
http://newsinitiative.org/story/2007/07/27/for_these_muslims_polygamy_is
Cindy
03-23-2011, 03:00 PM
Interesting article....
http://newsinitiative.org/story/2007/07/27/for_these_muslims_polygamy_is
No eligible men to marry, that's different than most polygamy reasons I think.
Pressing-On
03-23-2011, 04:39 PM
I'm not an advocate of Polygamy in any form. The family unit suffers and abuse is prominent in this Culture. Below is a link (video) showing the very sobering facts about this lifestyle that breeds dysfunction and heartbreak.
This is one of the best documentaries I've ever seen on the subject.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7652620562849262422#
Just got a chance to listen to this. Very interesting.
"How do you worship God when you become His equal?"
Digging4Truth
03-23-2011, 05:03 PM
I imagine this "belief" was pretty handy for the men who invented it. However, now, they are raised this way, whether they like it or not.
They didn't invent it. It's been around since Bible times.
Digging4Truth
03-23-2011, 05:05 PM
seems like Texas has a drawing power for cults...
Texas is a mighty big place.
Pressing-On
03-23-2011, 05:07 PM
Texas is a mighty big place.
:hanky :hanky :hanky
They didn't invent it. It's been around since Bible times.
No. They invented it. They invented the idea that in order to get into the celestial heaven, you had to be polygamous. Way to browbeat people into it. No choice there.
Digging4Truth
03-23-2011, 05:53 PM
No. They invented it. They invented the idea that in order to get into the celestial heaven, you had to be polygamous. Way to browbeat people into it. No choice there.
This is true.
Aquila
03-24-2011, 06:46 AM
As the Muslim population grows in the United States, do you feel we'll see a gradual increase in polygamous lifestyles?
whoami
03-24-2011, 08:16 AM
I've only read about half the thread - but I think consenting adults of legal age should be allowed to live however they want. I can't see how a polygamous home would be any worse for children than a split home where the kid lives with Dad and his wife one week and Mom and her husband another week.
Forced underage marriages and reassigned wives and children are an entirely different matter though.
onefaith2
03-24-2011, 09:13 AM
As the Muslim population grows in the United States, do you feel we'll see a gradual increase in polygamous lifestyles?
Do the Muslims practice such things as a whole?
erika.baldock
03-24-2011, 09:15 AM
I think the whole polygamy thing is completely disgusting.
Aquila
03-24-2011, 09:21 AM
Do the Muslims practice such things as a whole?
Not sure if it is "as a whole". I know Islam permits a man to take four wives as long as he treats each equally. Hadiths have interpreted the prophet to allow additional wives if they are war brides or widows. Almost all Muslim countries allow polygamy. A small minority of American Muslims have "polygamous" living arrangements though only the first wife is "legally" a spouse in the U.S.
Aquila
03-24-2011, 09:24 AM
I think the whole polygamy thing is completely disgusting.
lol
I know, it presents some issues. However, it was the normal structure of marriage for the majority of human history in nearly every culture. In ancient times no one would expect a man to be with one woman his entire life. In fact a man was not only permitted additional "wives", but was permitted "concubines" (mistresses/girlfriends). There were legal protections for concubines, but they were less than those of a wife. "Adultery" was strictly defined as a man having relations with a married woman. The concept was that she wasn't available, being the wife of another. Therefore in the ancient mind, a man could have wives and concubines and not be an adulterer.
onefaith2
03-24-2011, 09:37 AM
lol
I know, it presents some issues. However, it was the normal structure of marriage for the majority of human history in nearly every culture. In ancient times no one would expect a man to be with one woman his entire life. In fact a man was not only permitted additional "wives", but was permitted "concubines" (mistresses/girlfriends). There were legal protections for concubines, but they were less than those of a wife. "Adultery" was strictly defined as a man having relations with a married woman. The concept was that she wasn't available, being the wife of another. Therefore in the ancient mind, a man could have wives and concubines and not be an adulterer.
Do you have any sources to confirm this?
onefaith2
03-24-2011, 09:37 AM
Not sure if it is "as a whole". I know Islam permits a man to take four wives as long as he treats each equally. Hadiths have interpreted the prophet to allow additional wives if they are war brides or widows. Almost all Muslim countries allow polygamy. A small minority of American Muslims have "polygamous" living arrangements though only the first wife is "legally" a spouse in the U.S.
Wow I've yet to meet one and I wonder if some countries outlaw it like the US?
NotforSale
03-24-2011, 10:58 AM
I've only read about half the thread - but I think consenting adults of legal age should be allowed to live however they want. I can't see how a polygamous home would be any worse for children than a split home where the kid lives with Dad and his wife one week and Mom and her husband another week.
Forced underage marriages and reassigned wives and children are an entirely different matter though.
Watch this Documentary and I promise you will change your mind. This opened my eyes to the severe dysfunction of this lifestyle. I came from a divorced home, where I went to stay with my father and stepmother on the weekends, and then came home to stay with my mother the rest of the time. What these children endure doesn’t even come close to what I did.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7652620562849262422#
Elizabeth
03-24-2011, 11:35 AM
Watching that vid on another tab, it is heart breaking!
To hear what those kids endured, omw, Dad's not even knowing their children's names because they had so many, have to fight for their dad's attention, Father's not even recognizing the children they help father as their own.
Dagwood
03-24-2011, 12:02 PM
As a child, I went to a Mormon church. It lasted only a few years, as my dad did not agree with mom, my brother, and I being involved in it. From what I remember, not one husband had more than one wife. Apparently, that's the difference between LDS and FLDS; I was part of the LDS. Nice people, no doubt, and very consistent with home visits even 10-15 years of not going to the Mormon church.
To answer the poll, I do not agree. There's only one sacred text I read and believe, the Bible. How a group of people can believe other "sacred" texts equally with the Bible is above and beyond my understanding, period, regardless of topic. But, nevertheless, that's what's been taught to them from one generation to another. God can reveal His truth to them much like He's done for Muslims (and any other people from other faiths) who have converted.
Aquila
03-25-2011, 07:16 AM
Do you have any sources to confirm this?
Jeesh... everyone demands that we do their homework. I'd say that if you don't agree with the statement, feel free to post information indicating that it isn't correct. But from my studies we see polygamy throughout ancient Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Orient.
Aquila
03-25-2011, 07:19 AM
Wow I've yet to meet one and I wonder if some countries outlaw it like the US?
They are discrete. I work in an airport. I've seen Muslim men travel with a group of women. One might easily assume they are sisters traveling with a sister and her husband. But I've encountered those who were indeed a polygamous family. One family was married in the Middle East, had moved to the United States, and were traveling back to visit family. Of course the male can only claim one legal wife. By American standards, the others are just living with him. Nothing illegal about that.
onefaith2
03-25-2011, 10:21 AM
Jeesh... everyone demands that we do their homework. I'd say that if you don't agree with the statement, feel free to post information indicating that it isn't correct. But from my studies we see polygamy throughout ancient Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Orient.
No but if you readily say something, it'd be nice to know where you got the info so we could study it. None of us have time to search through endless google pages, especially when you have already spent time doing it. Help us out.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 06:35 AM
No but if you readily say something, it'd be nice to know where you got the info so we could study it. None of us have time to search through endless google pages, especially when you have already spent time doing it. Help us out.
lol
Okay... we'll just pretend it's not so. ;)
Not sure if it is "as a whole". I know Islam permits a man to take four wives as long as he treats each equally. Hadiths have interpreted the prophet to allow additional wives if they are war brides or widows. Almost all Muslim countries allow polygamy. A small minority of American Muslims have "polygamous" living arrangements though only the first wife is "legally" a spouse in the U.S.
There is a foreign film called Leila about this. It is heartbreaking.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116851/
Wow I've yet to meet one and I wonder if some countries outlaw it like the US?
I know that the many Hmong where I live practice polygamy sometimes. Of course, the younger couples are getting away from it as the young women are American and won't put up with it! It is basically underground though and not spoken of openly.
Biblically though, Adam made Eve for Adam and not additionally Sarah, Jane and Paula. ;)
Hoovie
03-28-2011, 10:10 AM
Whats wrong with those "American" women?!?
Whats wrong with those "American" women?!?
I don't know! I guess we should beg our husbands to jump in the sack with someone else! As the polygamist wife said, it's nice to get a break! LOL!!
Aquila
03-28-2011, 10:29 AM
I know that the many Hmong where I live practice polygamy sometimes. Of course, the younger couples are getting away from it as the young women are American and won't put up with it! It is basically underground though and not spoken of openly.
Biblically though, Adam made Eve for Adam and not additionally Sarah, Jane and Paula. ;)
In my opinion, monogamy was always God's desire for man.
BeenThinkin
03-28-2011, 10:52 AM
NOTICE...... Off Subject!
But I was just wondering, in a Lesbian relationship how do they decide which one is going to have the headache?
Just wonderin'
Been Thinkin
NOTICE...... Off Subject!
But I was just wondering, in a Lesbian relationship how do they decide which one is going to have the headache?
Just wonderin'
Been Thinkin
They BOTH have one. No stress! LOL!:thumbsup
MissBrattified
03-28-2011, 11:19 AM
I don't know! I guess we should beg our husbands to jump in the sack with someone else! As the polygamist wife said, it's nice to get a break! LOL!!
That says a lot about the husband's "skills." :heeheehee
Considering all the other lifestyles that are lauded and supported, I'm not quite sure why polygamy shouldn't be allowed. I can see how it can create the potential for abusive situations, especially when religion is in charge of who marries whom, but I can also see some positives. (Many hands make light work, large family support system, etc.)
Not my cup of tea, to be sure, but I'm not sure I see serious problems with it either. It requires a certain mindset and cultural immersion to even be acceptable to a woman, so it wouldn't appeal to the vast majority of American women.
Also, while I don't agree with anyone being "forced" into marriage, there are marriages arranged all the time in other cultures, and it isn't seen as being forced; they're "arranged marriages." Again, not what I would want for my daughters, but if someone has been raised expecting that to happen, I'm not convinced that it's terribly harmful.
What is harmful is when a woman is in an abusive marriage that she can't escape, and she's fearful to go to law enforcement because they may prosecute her or take away her children simply for being in the situation to begin with. Legalizing polygamy could potentially provide protection for women and children who are in abusive situations but have nowhere to turn for help without getting themselves into trouble with the law.
BeenThinkin
03-28-2011, 11:23 AM
That says a lot about the husband's "skills." :heeheehee
Considering all the other lifestyles that are lauded and supported, I'm not quite sure why polygamy shouldn't be allowed. I can see how it can create the potential for abusive situations, especially when religion is in charge of who marries whom, but I can also see some positives. (Many hands make light work, large family support system, etc.)
Not my cup of tea, to be sure, but I'm not sure I see serious problems with it either. It requires a certain mindset and cultural immersion to even be acceptable to a woman, so it wouldn't appeal to the vast majority of American women.
Also, while I don't agree with anyone being "forced" into marriage, there are marriages arranged all the time in other cultures, and it isn't seen as being forced; they're "arranged marriages." Again, not what I would want for my daughters, but if someone has been raised expecting that to happen, I'm not convinced that it's terribly harmful.
What is harmful is when a woman is in an abusive marriage that she can't escape, and she's fearful to go to law enforcement because they may prosecute her or take away her children simply for being in the situation to begin with. Legalizing polygamy could potentially provide protection for women and children who are in abusive situations but have nowhere to turn for help without getting themselves into trouble with the law.
I just can't imagine two wives "nagging" at the same time! Lord help me! :heeheehee
And what's this about "skills?" What about her skills? :heeheehee
Been Thinkin
That says a lot about the husband's "skills." :heeheehee
Considering all the other lifestyles that are lauded and supported, I'm not quite sure why polygamy shouldn't be allowed. I can see how it can create the potential for abusive situations, especially when religion is in charge of who marries whom, but I can also see some positives. (Many hands make light work, large family support system, etc.)
Not my cup of tea, to be sure, but I'm not sure I see serious problems with it either. It requires a certain mindset and cultural immersion to even be acceptable to a woman, so it wouldn't appeal to the vast majority of American women.
Also, while I don't agree with anyone being "forced" into marriage, there are marriages arranged all the time in other cultures, and it isn't seen as being forced; they're "arranged marriages." Again, not what I would want for my daughters, but if someone has been raised expecting that to happen, I'm not convinced that it's terribly harmful.
What is harmful is when a woman is in an abusive marriage that she can't escape, and she's fearful to go to law enforcement because they may prosecute her or take away her children simply for being in the situation to begin with. Legalizing polygamy could potentially provide protection for women and children who are in abusive situations but have nowhere to turn for help without getting themselves into trouble with the law.
You have a good point there. Perhaps legalization would help the problem of abuse rather than make it worse.
Re your comment about the husband's "skills". I think some women just don't have any drive. I don't like the idea that men on here reading might think it's all about their skills. Sometimes women just don't feel like it.
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 11:26 AM
I know that the many Hmong where I live practice polygamy sometimes. Of course, the younger couples are getting away from it as the young women are American and won't put up with it! It is basically underground though and not spoken of openly.
Biblically though, Adam made Eve for Adam and not additionally Sarah, Jane and Paula. ;)
Where you from? I was around a large Hmong population in Hickory, NC. THere is a Hmong UPC church there.
Where you from? I was around a large Hmong population in Hickory, NC. THere is a Hmong UPC church there.
Wisconsin.
MissBrattified
03-28-2011, 11:31 AM
You have a good point there. Perhaps legalization would help the problem of abuse rather than make it worse.
Re your comment about the husband's "skills". I think some women just don't have any drive. I don't like the idea that men on here reading might think it's all about their skills. Sometimes women just don't feel like it.
Fair enough (and true)...but my husband can usually put me in the right frame of mind, with a little effort....:happydance
Reminds me of a wonderful chocolate cake made by one of my best friends - we affectionately call it the "BTS" cake (Better Than Sex). I suppose it depends on your perspective, whether you can really call the cake BTS. :coffee2
Fair enough (and true)...but my husband can usually put me in the right frame of mind, with a little effort....:happydance
Reminds me of a wonderful chocolate cake made by one of my best friends - we affectionately call it the "BTS" cake (Better Than Sex). I suppose it depends on your perspective, whether you can really call the cake BTS. :coffee2
It seems to change with age. ;)
BeenThinkin
03-28-2011, 11:43 AM
Fair enough (and true)...but my husband can usually put me in the right frame of mind, with a little effort....:happydance
Reminds me of a wonderful chocolate cake made by one of my best friends - we affectionately call it the "BTS" cake (Better Than Sex). I suppose it depends on your perspective, whether you can really call the cake BTS. :coffee2
Would that be a "sugar free" BTS cake? Just wonderin'
Been Thinkin
Aquila
03-28-2011, 11:48 AM
That says a lot about the husband's "skills." :heeheehee
Considering all the other lifestyles that are lauded and supported, I'm not quite sure why polygamy shouldn't be allowed. I can see how it can create the potential for abusive situations, especially when religion is in charge of who marries whom, but I can also see some positives. (Many hands make light work, large family support system, etc.)
Not my cup of tea, to be sure, but I'm not sure I see serious problems with it either. It requires a certain mindset and cultural immersion to even be acceptable to a woman, so it wouldn't appeal to the vast majority of American women.
Also, while I don't agree with anyone being "forced" into marriage, there are marriages arranged all the time in other cultures, and it isn't seen as being forced; they're "arranged marriages." Again, not what I would want for my daughters, but if someone has been raised expecting that to happen, I'm not convinced that it's terribly harmful.
What is harmful is when a woman is in an abusive marriage that she can't escape, and she's fearful to go to law enforcement because they may prosecute her or take away her children simply for being in the situation to begin with. Legalizing polygamy could potentially provide protection for women and children who are in abusive situations but have nowhere to turn for help without getting themselves into trouble with the law.
Interesting perspective.... You mentioned having daughters. Could you support one of your daughters entering a polygamous marriage?
I would definitely not want my daughter in a polygamous marriage. But, some women would support that. They were probably raised that way.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:57 PM
I would definitely not want my daughter in a polygamous marriage. But, some women would support that. They were probably raised that way.
Even some not raised that way might support it, if it were their child's choice. The desire to see a child happy can cause us to accept their choices... even if we'd never make said choices ourselves.
Well, yeah, but it would be hard.
MissBrattified
03-28-2011, 01:08 PM
Interesting perspective.... You mentioned having daughters. Could you support one of your daughters entering a polygamous marriage?
No way! "Support" is subjective, though; an adult makes their own choices; my "support" or lack thereof is limited in scope. Whether my daughters will allow my opinions to have weight when they make life-altering choices remains to be seen.
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 01:10 PM
Maybe this is another alternative lifestyle emerging.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 01:38 PM
Maybe this is another alternative lifestyle emerging.
I think it's always been with us after the fall.
Men in the OT had wives and concubines. Some had a wife and concubines. In Christian times many men had a official wife and a mistress or mistresses. Fallen human nature is what it is and I think we often see this in our culture.
Even in the United States almost half of all marriages end in divorce. The parties most often remarry. That's been called "serial monogamy". That means that maybe a little under half of men in the United States who marry will have had more than one wife during his life. :(
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 01:43 PM
I think it's always been with us after the fall.
Men in the OT had wives and concubines. Some had a wife and concubines. In Christian times many men had a official wife and a mistress or mistresses. Fallen human nature is what it is and I think we often see this in our culture.
Even in the United States almost half of all marriages end in divorce. The parties most often remarry. That's been called "serial monogamy". That means that maybe a little under half of men in the United States who marry will have had more than one wife during his life. :(
While I certainly see divorce and remarriage a big problem for our country and for the world; I don't exactly put that in the same category as polygamy. A polygamists who keeps all his wives instead of remarrying someone else actually has more clarity as far as scripture goes, then divorce.
That being said I don't see polygamy anywhere in the NT Church and one of the requirements for bishops/deacons is to be a husband of one wife. We traditionally look at this in regards to divorce/remarriage, but that is not the only place it could be applied.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 02:48 PM
While I certainly see divorce and remarriage a big problem for our country and for the world; I don't exactly put that in the same category as polygamy. A polygamists who keeps all his wives instead of remarrying someone else actually has more clarity as far as scripture goes, then divorce.
That being said I don't see polygamy anywhere in the NT Church and one of the requirements for bishops/deacons is to be a husband of one wife. We traditionally look at this in regards to divorce/remarriage, but that is not the only place it could be applied.
I don't think it's the same as polygamy either, that's why I noted that it's called "serial monogamy". My only point is that in every culture a substantial number of men will have more than one wife in one way or another. I think it's sad though.
I agree, the NT church didn't practice polygamy. I seem to remember reading that Rome banned polygamy prior to the time of Christ. Thus the church would reflect the norms of it's society... but I find that Herod the Great had 10 wives at one time. I believe the Christian ethic of monogamous marriage is rooted in it's symbolism of one Lord and one church (bride).
There were short periods of time wherein polygamy was allowed in the historic Christian church. But for the most part men disposed to having more than one woman simply took a mistress. In the East men disposed to wanting more than one woman engaged in polygamy. In the West European men took mistresses or courtesans (something more akin to concubines) with their wife's knowledge and consent. We still see this in some ways today.
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