View Full Version : Obedience And Works Question ?
Scott Hutchinson
03-24-2011, 05:02 PM
The bible says we are by grace and not by works,and yet we are to obey the gospel. And The Lord does have commandments for Christians and His commandments are not grevious.
How would explain the difference obedience and works ?
Scott Hutchinson
03-24-2011, 05:36 PM
Now I have views on this,but I'm fishing to hear how others explain this.
Timmy
03-24-2011, 05:40 PM
The bible says we are by grace and not by works,and yet we are to obey the gospel. And The Lord does have commandments for Christians and His commandments are not grevious.
How would explain the difference obedience and works ?
If it burns fewer than 100 calories, it doesn't count as a 'work'.
(j/k :heeheehee)
Michael The Disciple
03-25-2011, 01:46 AM
Must be a difficult topic?
When scripture speaks of works in a negative way it seems like its addressing works as in "works of the law". Doing rituals. Another way is as it were works that are simply "human effort".
Since salvation is from God we must find his way of presenting it. In his own reasoning he has shut up mankind all to vanity.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Romans 8:20
He sees all mankind either as Adam or as Christ. The good works of Adam he does not regard as far as obtaining eternal life.
However he delights in the new creation man being obedient.
1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Rom. 1:5
Matter of fact he says this is what they were made for!
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10
No doubt those good works we are ordained to do are things that come from observing the commandments he has given.
Just one example might be:
You happen upon a hitch hiker. Picking him up you find he has not eaten for 3 days. Well the command to remember the poor has been sown into your heart by the word of God through varying scriptures.
So guess what? You get this desire that you want to help the person which you then do.
You have been obedient and done a good work which flowed from the knowledge of Gods will and the prompting of the Spirit in your heart.
This is what we are ordained to do. Our righeousness is to as it were flow from him.
I guess that will do for a start?
Scott Hutchinson
03-25-2011, 06:59 AM
Must be a difficult topic?
When scripture speaks of works in a negative way it seems like its addressing works as in "works of the law". Doing rituals. Another way is as it were works that are simply "human effort".
Since salvation is from God we must find his way of presenting it. In his own reasoning he has shut up mankind all to vanity.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Romans 8:20
He sees all mankind either as Adam or as Christ. The good works of Adam he does not regard as far as obtaining eternal life.
However he delights in the new creation man being obedient.
1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Rom. 1:5
Matter of fact he says this is what they were made for!
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10
No doubt those good works we are ordained to do are things that come from observing the commandments he has given.
Just one example might be:
You happen upon a hitch hiker. Picking him up you find he has not eaten for 3 days. Well the command to remember the poor has been sown into your heart by the word of God through varying scriptures.
So guess what? You get this desire that you want to help the person which you then do.
You have been obedient and done a good work which flowed from the knowledge of Gods will and the prompting of the Spirit in your heart.
This is what we are ordained to do. Our righeousness is to as it were flow from him.
I guess that will do for a start?
Thanks for the input.
LUKE2447
03-25-2011, 09:01 AM
It is about source. He is the source of salvation to them that obey him. Heb 5:9
My effort or his leading of righteousness. Without faith(response, reliance on him) it is impossible to please God. Faith is used more in term of a relational sense in contrast of a isolated sense in "works themselves." As to make the work the salvation source is to seperate it from the author. Works are the context of faith. Thus togethor. To just say works is to make it the source than reliance upon God.
onefaith2
03-25-2011, 10:16 AM
Must be a difficult topic?
When scripture speaks of works in a negative way it seems like its addressing works as in "works of the law". Doing rituals. Another way is as it were works that are simply "human effort".
Since salvation is from God we must find his way of presenting it. In his own reasoning he has shut up mankind all to vanity.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Romans 8:20
He sees all mankind either as Adam or as Christ. The good works of Adam he does not regard as far as obtaining eternal life.
However he delights in the new creation man being obedient.
1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Rom. 1:5
Matter of fact he says this is what they were made for!
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10
No doubt those good works we are ordained to do are things that come from observing the commandments he has given.
Just one example might be:
You happen upon a hitch hiker. Picking him up you find he has not eaten for 3 days. Well the command to remember the poor has been sown into your heart by the word of God through varying scriptures.
So guess what? You get this desire that you want to help the person which you then do.
You have been obedient and done a good work which flowed from the knowledge of Gods will and the prompting of the Spirit in your heart.
This is what we are ordained to do. Our righeousness is to as it were flow from him.
I guess that will do for a start?
Not to derail the thread but do you have a lot of experience in picking up hitchhikers or people broke down? I have a couple of times but just curious. You can start a thread on it if you want to.
Aquila
03-25-2011, 10:17 AM
The bible says we are by grace and not by works,and yet we are to obey the gospel. And The Lord does have commandments for Christians and His commandments are not grevious.
How would explain the difference obedience and works ?
That is the MOST important question in Christianity, in my opinion.
You see… we are not told to live “for” Christ but rather “in” Christ. God doesn’t desire that we live according to rules that only modify behavior, but don’t change one’s nature. God desires that we be ONE with Jesus, and this is what Jesus taught. We are not supposed to live our lives trying to please Him. We are to DIE and cease all work and effort at salvation, seeking ONENESS with Jesus. The Christian life isn’t something we DO in service to the Lord. The Christian life is dying to self and our own works… and allowing JESUS Himself to live out the divine life THROUGH us.
For example, a legalist will wake up thinking of all the wonderful things he wants to do for Jesus on a given day. All these things are good and noble. He wants to dress right for Jesus, speak right for Jesus, do right for Jesus. He has a list of things that he believes are essential things to “do” for Jesus. The problem is… THIS IS A TOTALLY WRONG APPROACH. This person is still functioning according to SELF. He’s merely religious.
A GRACE filled Christian will wake up focused on being ONE with Jesus. Praying that Jesus live HIS life through them that day. Realizing that today, THEY are crucified with Christ. Embracing that THEY must decrease and JESUS must increase. Their mind, thoughts, and consciousness must be absorbed into the very person of Jesus, thus he lives as a son of God presently in his life. This is partaking in the divine nature. If JESUS is living THROUGH you… an overcoming and miraculous life is the natural result.
Oneness is more than a theology… it’s also the way we are to approach the Christian life. We are crucified with Christ, and yet we live. Not us… but Christ who lives within us. We are complete in Him who is the head of all principality and power. Jesus is the vine and we are but mere branches of Him. Without Him… we can do nothing. The overcoming life is the result of the Christlife flowing from Jesus THROUGH us.
So the question that’s often asked, “I’m a Christian can I do this….???” IS THE WRONG QUESTION. The question is… is that person one with Jesus??? What is JESUS leading them to do???
In sports, in order to be victorious we have to keep our eyes on the ball and be one with the ball. In the Christian faith we have to keep our focus on Jesus and be one with Jesus. Our aim should NEVER be a focus on DO’s and DON’Ts, good WORKS or bad WORKS. Our focus should be on partaking in Christ’s nature and being CONFORMED INTO HIS IMAGE. BE JESUS!
So, to answer your question. Works is living FOR Jesus. Obedience is DYING to self and allowing Jesus to live THROUGH us.
Sorry… this gets me fired up. Lol
onefaith2
03-25-2011, 10:33 AM
That is the MOST important question in Christianity, in my opinion.
You see… we are not told to live “for” Christ but rather “in” Christ. God doesn’t desire that we live according to rules that only modify behavior, but don’t change one’s nature. God desires that we be ONE with Jesus, and this is what Jesus taught. We are not supposed to live our lives trying to please Him. We are to DIE and cease all work and effort at salvation, seeking ONENESS with Jesus. The Christian life isn’t something we DO in service to the Lord. The Christian life is dying to self and our own works… and allowing JESUS Himself to live out the divine life THROUGH us.
For example, a legalist will wake up thinking of all the wonderful things he wants to do for Jesus on a given day. All these things are good and noble. He wants to dress right for Jesus, speak right for Jesus, do right for Jesus. He has a list of things that he believes are essential things to “do” for Jesus. The problem is… THIS IS A TOTALLY WRONG APPROACH. This person is still functioning according to SELF. He’s merely religious.
A GRACE filled Christian will wake up focused on being ONE with Jesus. Praying that Jesus live HIS life through them that day. Realizing that today, THEY are crucified with Christ. Embracing that THEY must decrease and JESUS must increase. Their mind, thoughts, and consciousness must be absorbed into the very person of Jesus, thus he lives as a son of God presently in his life. This is partaking in the divine nature. If JESUS is living THROUGH you… an overcoming and miraculous life is the natural result.
Oneness is more than a theology… it’s also the way we are to approach the Christian life. We are crucified with Christ, and yet we live. Not us… but Christ who lives within us. We are complete in Him who is the head of all principality and power. Jesus is the vine and we are but mere branches of Him. Without Him… we can do nothing. The overcoming life is the result of the Christlife flowing from Jesus THROUGH us.
So the question that’s often asked, “I’m a Christian can I do this….???” IS THE WRONG QUESTION. The question is… is that person one with Jesus??? What is JESUS leading them to do???
In sports, in order to be victorious we have to keep our eyes on the ball and be one with the ball. In the Christian faith we have to keep our focus on Jesus and be one with Jesus. Our aim should NEVER be a focus on DO’s and DON’Ts, good WORKS or bad WORKS. Our focus should be on partaking in Christ’s nature and being CONFORMED INTO HIS IMAGE. BE JESUS!
So, to answer your question. Works is living FOR Jesus. Obedience is DYING to self and allowing Jesus to live THROUGH us.
Sorry… this gets me fired up. Lol
Good points. I think its understanding free will and what walking after the Spirit really means in Romans 8. If we walk after the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I believe that to be true.
Can you elaborate on what you mean more by partaking of divine nature? I'm not so sure I am understanding you right.
Aquila
03-25-2011, 12:47 PM
Good points. I think its understanding free will and what walking after the Spirit really means in Romans 8. If we walk after the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I believe that to be true.
Amen. We simply DIE to self (good works and works of the flesh) and allow the Spirit (Jesus Christ) to live through us. Victory is IN Him. We don’t get victory doing FOR Him. As born again believers, we’re not issued a list of dos and don’ts. Our aspiration isn’t an ethical set of rules… but rather our aspiration is a person… Jesus Christ. Nothing will save us accept being conformed into the very image of Jesus. God doesn’t want to see a devout Apostolic or Baptist when He looks upon us… God wants to see JESUS. We are told that we must be PERFECT as our Father in Heaven is perfect. Yet in ourselves, even in all our rules, we can’t achieve perfection. Perfection can only come from that which is perfect. Thus, being perfect is dying from our own efforts of righteousness (self righteousness) and allowing JESUS (He who is perfection) live His perfect life through us. Again… be Jesus. Be so ONE with Jesus you feel HIS heart beating in your chest. Being so ONE with Jesus it’s HIS shadow that falls upon the ground as you walk. Being so ONE with Jesus when you speak people look at you with goosebumps because it is HIS words flowing from your lips. You loose your identity and find yourself absorbed by HIM to the point wherein you are only an extension of Jesus in this world. Yes, you’re still human… but it’s the life in union with HIM that is grace filled and overcoming.
Can you elaborate on what you mean more by partaking of divine nature? I'm not so sure I am understanding you right.
This is a BIG subject, and I’m not even sure I’ve grasped it all in its entirety yet. And you might have additional insight to add to it. But I’ll share what I’ve come to understand in my studies.
2 Peter 1:1-11
{1:1} Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus
Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus
Christ: {1:2} Grace and peace be multiplied unto you
through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, {1:3}
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things
that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the
knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
{1:4} Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and
precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of
the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in
the world through lust. {1:5} And beside this, giving all
diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
{1:6} And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance
patience; and to patience godliness; {1:7} And to godliness
brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. {1:8}
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you
that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. {1:9} But he that
lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and
hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. {1:10}
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your
calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall
never fall: {1:11} For so an entrance shall be ministered
unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our
Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
First, our righteousness isn’t through works, but it is the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. Our grace and peace can be multiplied through knowing the fullness of God as manifest in us. Because it is by HIS divine power that he has given to us all things that pertain to living a godly life, through the very knowledge of Him who has called us to glorious and virtuous living. Because HE has given us exceedingly great promises; promises that allow us to partake in HIS divine nature living inside us, wherewith we have escaped the sinful corruptions of this world instigated by lust. You see, if all this be in us, we have knowledge of who we are in Him. This is our victory. The man that lacks in these things is blind, he cannot see afar off. He has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins by them being nailed to Christ’s cross. He doesn’t realize that living sinfully is AGAINST the very new nature of Christ imparted to Him. We are to make our calling and election sure in Christ Jesus. It’s all about tapping into the indwelling divine nature of Jesus.
Jesus is the vine… we are the branches. That divine nature that flows like nectar through the vine passes through the branches that they might bring forth fruit. The very Spirit of Jesus dwelling inside of us has imparted to us HIS nature. Most of us are living BELOW the nature imparted to us, living as men and brute beasts of religious burden, weighed down with standards and rules, suffocating the and hindering the very life Jesus desired to give us. When Jesus is living in us, and we are dead to self, His divine nature freely flows through our very being making us a conduit or extension of Himself. Jesus cannot fail. We fall and stumble and sin when we’ve hindered this union by picking self back up, living through the rotten carcass of the old man who was crucified with Christ. When we sin we feel guilty right? Why? If we were sinful human beings living with a sinful nature we’d be perfectly at home with sin. The FACT that we feel guilty demonstrates one thing… the old sin nature was crucified and is dead… we have the person of Jesus living in us imparting His divine nature to us. Our actions are contradicting our new nature… thus we feel guilt and shame. Guilt and shame from sin is EVIDENCE of a transformed nature. The way to ditch the guilt and shame is simple… confess to God and repent of picking up your old identity and reassume that oneness in Jesus Christ. By doing so we align ourselves with the divine nature imparted to us through the presence of the Holy Ghost. Then our actions are aligned with our nature and we feel PEACE.
I LOVE it when a saint sins and tells me they feel guilty and ashamed. It PROVES they have actually be changed!!! PRAISE GOD! Now they just have to accept their identity. It’s like they hit their head and forgot who they are and now they’re acting like someone who died and was buried a long time ago with Christ. If they realize the secret to identification… knowing who they are IN Jesus… they can just accept who they are and align themselves with the indwelling Jesus. It’s simple really.
Now… don’t just go out there and be the best Apostolic you can be. Because that isn’t good enough. Go out there and be one with Jesus to the point where He lives through you. Let HIM possess you. Be Jesus to this lost and dying world. Then you’ll have discovered REAL holiness.
Michael The Disciple
03-25-2011, 01:22 PM
That is the MOST important question in Christianity, in my opinion.
You see… we are not told to live “for” Christ but rather “in” Christ. God doesn’t desire that we live according to rules that only modify behavior, but don’t change one’s nature. God desires that we be ONE with Jesus, and this is what Jesus taught. We are not supposed to live our lives trying to please Him. We are to DIE and cease all work and effort at salvation, seeking ONENESS with Jesus. The Christian life isn’t something we DO in service to the Lord. The Christian life is dying to self and our own works… and allowing JESUS Himself to live out the divine life THROUGH us.
For example, a legalist will wake up thinking of all the wonderful things he wants to do for Jesus on a given day. All these things are good and noble. He wants to dress right for Jesus, speak right for Jesus, do right for Jesus. He has a list of things that he believes are essential things to “do” for Jesus. The problem is… THIS IS A TOTALLY WRONG APPROACH. This person is still functioning according to SELF. He’s merely religious.
A GRACE filled Christian will wake up focused on being ONE with Jesus. Praying that Jesus live HIS life through them that day. Realizing that today, THEY are crucified with Christ. Embracing that THEY must decrease and JESUS must increase. Their mind, thoughts, and consciousness must be absorbed into the very person of Jesus, thus he lives as a son of God presently in his life. This is partaking in the divine nature. If JESUS is living THROUGH you… an overcoming and miraculous life is the natural result.
Oneness is more than a theology… it’s also the way we are to approach the Christian life. We are crucified with Christ, and yet we live. Not us… but Christ who lives within us. We are complete in Him who is the head of all principality and power. Jesus is the vine and we are but mere branches of Him. Without Him… we can do nothing. The overcoming life is the result of the Christlife flowing from Jesus THROUGH us.
So the question that’s often asked, “I’m a Christian can I do this….???” IS THE WRONG QUESTION. The question is… is that person one with Jesus??? What is JESUS leading them to do???
In sports, in order to be victorious we have to keep our eyes on the ball and be one with the ball. In the Christian faith we have to keep our focus on Jesus and be one with Jesus. Our aim should NEVER be a focus on DO’s and DON’Ts, good WORKS or bad WORKS. Our focus should be on partaking in Christ’s nature and being CONFORMED INTO HIS IMAGE. BE JESUS!
So, to answer your question. Works is living FOR Jesus. Obedience is DYING to self and allowing Jesus to live THROUGH us.
Sorry… this gets me fired up. Lol
Well Aquila does make some good points here. Taking up the cross and dying to self must come first. However if one did not no better it would sound as if he were negating something very important to Jesus, namely his commandments.
Its certainly true that do's and dont's are not the goal. The goal is Jesus and fellowship with him and yes living out his life by the Spirit.
And yet we can go to the New Testament and find instructions/commandments of things to do or not on practically every page!
Jesus DOES use his commandments to change our behavior. The Holy Spirit baptism pours out the love of God in our hearts. It makes us desire to please Jesus.
Yet without his commandments we would not know what does please him.
4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 1 Thess. 4:1-2
The scriptures are literally filled with this kind of teaching. Obedience and works are important to Jesus and we should teach in a way that holds that and not minimize it.
Paul said to the Phillipians:
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil. 2:12-13
Note how he presents both sides of what we are discussing. In verse 2 he says they always obeyed! There was something to obey and they were doing it.
Then note verse 13 where he reminds them even tho they were obedient it was in fact by the empowering and leading of the Holy Spirit.
We would do well to keep these things together and not over or under emphasize anything the Lord is working in us.
LUKE2447
03-25-2011, 01:32 PM
Aquila I have taught much of what you said and totaly agree I think you wuold know my Christology is based on that very same thing. To say we don't have laws is not correct. To say we don't have a commandment is not correct. Christ clearly teaches us we do in John 15. Paul teaches us circumcison or uncircumcision are nothing only thing that matters is keeping his commandments. John teaches us we know if we keep his commandments we abide in him. To say we have do not have DO's and DONT'S is not true.
LUKE2447
03-25-2011, 01:37 PM
Well Aquila does make some good points here. Taking up the cross and dying to self must come first. However if one did not no better it would sound as if he were negating something very important to Jesus, namely his commandments.
Its certainly true that do's and dont's are not the goal. The goal is Jesus and fellowship with him and yes living out his life by the Spirit.
And yet we can go to the New Testament and find instructions/commandments of things to do or not on practically every page!
Jesus DOES use his commandments to change our behavior. The Holy Spirit baptism pours out the love of God in our hearts. It makes us desire to please Jesus.
Yet without his commandments we would not know what does please him.
4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 1 Thess. 4:1-2
The scriptures are literally filled with this kind of teaching. Obedience and works are important to Jesus and we should teach in a way that holds that and not minimize it.
Paul said to the Phillipians:
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil. 2:12-13
Note how he presents both sides of what we are discussing. In verse 2 he says they always obeyed! There was something to obey and they were doing it.
Then note verse 13 where he reminds them even tho they were obedient it was in fact by the empowering and leading of the Holy Spirit.
We would do well to keep these things together and not over or under emphasize anything the Lord is working in us.
yep... to say we don't have commandments of that bear witness to the Spirit totally ignores how God bears witness to us. The scripture is clear we have commandments etc... The OT prophecied we would. It is not some untangible law of everyone going about saying one thing and another, another. He gives witness what it is IN scripture.
onefaith2
03-25-2011, 01:37 PM
I don't think the standards of holiness contradict with partaking in his Divine nature. These are actions based on principles written on our hearts by the word of God.
Michael The Disciple
03-25-2011, 01:44 PM
Should we stress works?
2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Titus 2:7
2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. Titus 2:13-15
3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. Titus 3:8
These 3 exhortations were quickly gleaned from one of the smaller books of the New Testament. This is just a drop in the bucket as to whats there about doing works. By works here I mean obeying Jesus Christ as to not confuse the discussion.
LUKE2447
03-25-2011, 02:05 PM
Just another note...
Aqula said...
"First, our righteousness isn’t through works, but it is the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ."
This depends on what you mean. Actually it is works. You cannot be justified without the contextual WORK that faith is. As HE did the FATHER's will he ABIDED AS DO WE! To walk is TO DO! Standing still is enmity of heart and faithlessness. Our righteousness is seen through him and doing as CHRIST did. romans 3:23 is a adjectival gentive "pistous christous."
Pistis Christou = Christ-like faithfulness
An example in English is "He's got the courage of a lion and the strength of Samson." Here the genitivs function as adjectives qualifying the main nouns and mean 'lion like' courage and 'Samsonlike' strength.
A simple table categorizing the objective, subjective and adjectival interpretations of Pistis Christou is
Genitive type Who has faithfulness Object of faithfulness
Objective-------------Humans------------------Christ
Subjective-------------Christ--------------------God
Adjectival-------------Humans-------------------God
More importantly, what I consider to be the single strongest piece of evidence in the entire pistis Christou fits only with the adjectival view, and does not fit with either the subjective or objective views (and thus is generally ignored). This is the parallel between Romans 3:26 and 4:16:
Rom 4:16 tw ek pistews Abraam
Rom 3:26 tov ek pistews Christou
This almost exact parallel in structure and wording occurs only half a chapter after Paul's heavy use of pistis Christou. All major bible versions unanimously translate 4:16 as "those who share the faith of Abraham", because the context of 4:16 is quite restrictive in clearly determining the meaning - it demands an adjectival interpretation and permits neither the subjective nor objective reading. The verbal identity of the parallel implies that Rom 3:26 should be read as "those who share the faith of Christ", ie as an adjectival genitive.
Another similar parallel is comes from Paul's talk about us having the mind of Christ (ie Christ-like minds). In Phil 2:5f he encourages the Christians to "have the same mind in you that was in Jesus Christ". And in 1 Cor 2:16 he says that we have Christ-like minds:
1 Cor 2:16 noun Christou exomen - "we have the mind of Christ"
This is an example of Paul using Christou to qualify a noun, and Christou being an adjectival genitive. In this way pistis Christou exomen would mean that we have Christ-like faith http://theogeek.blogspot.com/search?q=romans+3
Aquila
03-25-2011, 02:56 PM
Well Aquila does make some good points here. Taking up the cross and dying to self must come first. However if one did not no better it would sound as if he were negating something very important to Jesus, namely his commandments.
Amen. But context is very important. For example, Jesus commanded the leper healed with leprosy to go show himself to the priest. Many of Christ’s commandments were given under the Law, and pertaining to the Law. And Christ Himself fulfilled the Law…ALL OF IT.
Another example, a lawyer once asked Jesus what the most important commandment in the Law was. Jesus answered Him per the Law. Jesus actually quoted the OT and explained that the Lord our God is One and that we are to love Him with all our being…and the second is like it… love our neighbor as ourselves.
Here’s a lie we often tell people in church… “Just learn to love God more.”
What???
This is absolutely INNEFFECTIVE. Why? Try commanding a school of children to love each other. Lol When Jesus said the greatest commandment of the Law was to love the Lord with all our being…it was Law. Notice how this ministers death. If you set out today to “Love God more” guess what… you’ll begin noticing how insufficient your love for God is. Every day this Law will minister death and condemnation to you. You’ll walk away thinking, “I just don’t love God enough. Most love Him, more….more…more….more.” And you’ll become a slave to a law of condemnation. Paul teaches us that the Law ministers DEATH. Paul illustrates how the Law stirs up passions and by it sins increase. Paul wouldn’t have known coveting if the Law hadn’t commanded, “Thou shalt not covet.”
Fact is YOU CAN’T love God enough, and God never commanded you to. The Law to Love God with all your being does one thing…it teaches you how totally incapable of loving God you really are.
Ah… BUT… Paul teaches us some principles of GRACE that set us free. You see Paul teaches us that we only love Him… because HE FIRST loved us. The key to loving God with all your being isn’t setting out to “obey the commandment to love God with all my being”. The key is soaking in the every expanding truth of how much God loves YOU. When the expanding revelation of the LOVE OF GOD sets into your soul….you’ll discover with weeping joy an ever increasing love for Him until it fills you to overflowing….an overflow that begins to even cause you to love others unconditionally and as you love yourself.
Law is DEATH. Rules are DEATH. Set out to keep a diet for the rest of your life. You’ll fail. Rules NEVER have worked and never will work. Jesus isn’t about getting you to live for HIM. Jesus is all about living HIS divine life through you.
Its certainly true that do's and dont's are not the goal. The goal is Jesus and fellowship with him and yes living out his life by the Spirit.
And yet we can go to the New Testament and find instructions/commandments of things to do or not on practically every page!
True…BUT…. Those commandments are not intended to be obeyed in the flesh. They are intended to be obeyed through the surrender of our very identities to Him and His identity. For example we are commanded to not commit fornication. So let’s say a saint begins struggling with fornication, something like pornography. He says to himself, “I will obey the Bible! I’m not going to fornicate again!” Guess what… he just set himself up for repeated failure. Because to will to do the commandment in ourselves is death, it’s in the flesh. We automatically desire to “do” and save ourselves. He wants to be his own savior… but doesn’t realize it.
The answer???
Walk after the Spirit…meaning to walk according to that imparted divine nature of Christ within us. First, we need our minds renewed. The OLD MAN is dead. Crucified with Christ. Gone forever. We’re new creatures. Even when we act like that OLD MAN we are still new creatures. Because it has to do with “nature”. We’re called saints repeatedly in Scripture. Not because of what we do and don’t do. But because that’s our identity in Christ Jesus. We are NOT sinners…even if we sin. If we sin we are saints…saints who are acting out of congruence with our new nature. That’s where guilt and shame come in. We have to renew our mindset and declare that we are what God says we are though our actions may not show it at present. We are SAINTS. Signed, sealed, and delivered.
Next we need to seek to be filled with the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Christ. The very presence of Jesus. Begin discovering that our identity is IN Him. We then allow that truth to flow through our very souls. And as we are conformed into the image of Jesus Christ… we see people as Jesus sees them. The man struggling with fornication can’t help but see a woman being exploited and bound by drugs when he sees a pornographic photo. It will make him weep for her… not desire her.
The secret to obedience isn’t will to do… it’s surrendering our old carnal mind and having a renewed perspective of who we are in Christ and about our changed nature.
Jesus DOES use his commandments to change our behavior. The Holy Spirit baptism pours out the love of God in our hearts. It makes us desire to please Jesus.
In my opinion the second sentence contradicts the first. Jesus DOESN’T use His commandments to change our behavior. No LAW can change you. Only the regeneration of the Spirit, imparting a new nature, making us new creatures can change us. When that happens… obedience to the commandments of Scripture are the natural result. I fear we often put the cart of works before the horse of identity in Jesus. Do we work to be new creatures? NO. Do we do good works because we have already become new creatures? YES. LOL
Yet without his commandments we would not know what does please him.
4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 1 Thess. 4:1-2
The scriptures are literally filled with this kind of teaching. Obedience and works are important to Jesus and we should teach in a way that holds that and not minimize it.
Paul said to the Phillipians:
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil. 2:12-13
Note how he presents both sides of what we are discussing. In verse 2 he says they always obeyed! There was something to obey and they were doing it.
Then note verse 13 where he reminds them even tho they were obedient it was in fact by the empowering and leading of the Holy Spirit.
We would do well to keep these things together and not over or under emphasize anything the Lord is working in us.
Ooooo. I have some problems with this statement. If you KNOW him…you know what pleases Him. If He’s your very life, the essence of life flowing through your spirit…you’ll do what pleases Him. If you love Him because He first loved you…you’ll automatically please Him.
For example…
There are thousands of laws on the books in your state that essentially show you how to care for your children. If you break these laws…the state might come take your kids away. But let me tell you something… I’ve never gone down to the state house and read a single one of those laws….yet I’m confident I’ve obeyed them ALL. Why? Because I LOVE my little boy. The legalist would demand that we have to know the laws on the books and tell us that this is how we are to care for our children. Lol Wrong…even if you abided by those laws…you’d only provide the bare minimum of love’s demands. In fact because you love your children, not only have you already obeyed all those laws without knowing them… you’ve exceeded their demands.
Likewise with Jesus. If you LOVE Jesus you don’t need to know every little Law in the Bible to show it. That LOVE for Jesus will emanate the most sincere servanthood NOTHING you do will break those laws….in fact…. You’ll exceed them.
Aquila
03-25-2011, 02:57 PM
Aquila I have taught much of what you said and totaly agree I think you wuold know my Christology is based on that very same thing. To say we don't have laws is not correct. To say we don't have a commandment is not correct. Christ clearly teaches us we do in John 15. Paul teaches us circumcison or uncircumcision are nothing only thing that matters is keeping his commandments. John teaches us we know if we keep his commandments we abide in him. To say we have do not have DO's and DONT'S is not true.
I believe that’s an incorrect interpretation. Let’s take a look….
John 15:1-27
{15:1} I am the true vine, and my Father is the
husbandman. {15:2} Every branch in me that beareth not
fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit,
he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. {15:3} Now
ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto
you. {15:4} Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot
bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can
ye, except ye abide in me. {15:5} I am the vine, ye [are] the
branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same
bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
{15:6} If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch,
and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into
the fire, and they are burned. {15:7} If ye abide in me, and
my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it
shall be done unto you. {15:8} Herein is my Father
glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my
disciples. {15:9} As the Father hath loved me, so have I
loved you: continue ye in my love. {15:10} If ye keep my
commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have
kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
{15:11} These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy
might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.
{15:12} This is my commandment, That ye love one
another, as I have loved you. {15:13} Greater love hath no
man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
{15:14} Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command
you. {15:15} Henceforth I call you not servants; for the
servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called
you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I
have made known unto you. {15:16} Ye have not chosen
me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should
go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he
may give it you. {15:17} These things I command you, that
ye love one another. {15:18} If the world hate you, ye know
that [it hated] me before it hated you. {15:19} If ye were of
the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are
not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you. {15:20} Remember the
word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his
lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute
you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
{15:21} But all these things will they do unto you for my
name’s sake, because they know not him that sent me.
{15:22} If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had
not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
{15:23} He that hateth me hateth my Father also. {15:24} If
I had not done among them the works which none other
man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen
and hated both me and my Father. {15:25} But [this cometh
to pass,] that the word might be fulfilled that is written in
their law, They hated me without a cause. {15:26} But
when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you
from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth
from the Father, he shall testify of me: {15:27} And ye also
shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the
beginning.
Notice something…Jesus says,
“{15:4} Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot
bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can
ye, except ye abide in me.”
We only bear fruit because of the divine life flowing through the vine into us. We don’t bear fruit when we are not abiding in the vine. Sin is the result of separating ourselves from the source of our righteousness. In fact, we can sever ourselves from Jesus… and still try to bear fruit. While we might bear all kind of “religious fruit”, to God that’s not fruit at all. We are producing NOTHING.
Notice what else Jesus said,
John 14:21
{14:21} He that hath my commandments,
and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth
me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and
will manifest myself to him.
If you see an obedient man who obeys the Lord…you’re looking at a man who loves Jesus. The Love must come first. Obedience is the fruit of love. Love comes from knowing how much he first loved us. Power to overcome comes from our union with Him.
Aquila
03-25-2011, 02:57 PM
I have to jet for the weekend. This video expresses the fullness of what I'm trying to explain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rPO3e0gUtU
Michael The Disciple
03-25-2011, 04:31 PM
Aquila,
As I said part of what you are saying is true. I think most of us understand we love him because he first loved us. Thats grace at least thats its leading edge. Most of us understand we must abide in Jesus and obedience flows from this.
Nonetheless you do seem to be very much minimizing the Lords commands. No one has said we should keep them out of our own flesh. No one has said to love rules first and not be joined in fellowship with Christ.
Here is a good example of why I teach Jesus and his commandments.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:19-20
Jesus said as soon as a convert is baptized teach them all of his commandments. Understand? Our concepts should not contradict the words of Jesus.
To him the first priority for a disciple is to learn and obey his teachings. The convert may not even understand HOW he is doing that he just is doing it because he has met Jesus and wants to please him.
Much more teaching should over time be given explaining new creation realities of course. Yet the Lord is not being a "Pharisee" or "religionist" because he gives his people rules and commands.
Rather he is THE KING OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!
He does have rules for his kingdom. If men want to be part of his reign they must be taught to obey him.
I really do agree with the side of the truth you are promoting. Yet there is that other side which I am presenting you that is fallen into neglect nowadays. People dont want to hear about rules or commands yet to Jesus this is actually how he judges whether you love him or not.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3
The Holy Spirit is trying to put into our hearts that loving Jesus is not something done apart from keeping his commands.
The Apostles stressed this. Why? Because Jesus stressed it to them.
Let us not be of those who attempt to make the commands of Jesus seem grievous.
LUKE2447
03-25-2011, 04:34 PM
I believe that’s an incorrect interpretation. Let’s take a look….
John 15:1-27
{15:1} I am the true vine, and my Father is the
husbandman. {15:2} Every branch in me that beareth not
fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit,
he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. {15:3} Now
ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto
you. {15:4} Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot
bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can
ye, except ye abide in me. {15:5} I am the vine, ye [are] the
branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same
bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
{15:6} If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch,
and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into
the fire, and they are burned. {15:7} If ye abide in me, and
my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it
shall be done unto you. {15:8} Herein is my Father
glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my
disciples. {15:9} As the Father hath loved me, so have I
loved you: continue ye in my love. {15:10} If ye keep my
commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have
kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
{15:11} These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy
might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.
{15:12} This is my commandment, That ye love one
another, as I have loved you. {15:13} Greater love hath no
man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
{15:14} Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command
you. {15:15} Henceforth I call you not servants; for the
servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called
you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I
have made known unto you. {15:16} Ye have not chosen
me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should
go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he
may give it you. {15:17} These things I command you, that
ye love one another. {15:18} If the world hate you, ye know
that [it hated] me before it hated you. {15:19} If ye were of
the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are
not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you. {15:20} Remember the
word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his
lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute
you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
{15:21} But all these things will they do unto you for my
name’s sake, because they know not him that sent me.
{15:22} If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had
not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
{15:23} He that hateth me hateth my Father also. {15:24} If
I had not done among them the works which none other
man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen
and hated both me and my Father. {15:25} But [this cometh
to pass,] that the word might be fulfilled that is written in
their law, They hated me without a cause. {15:26} But
when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you
from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth
from the Father, he shall testify of me: {15:27} And ye also
shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the
beginning.
Notice something…Jesus says,
“{15:4} Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot
bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can
ye, except ye abide in me.”
We only bear fruit because of the divine life flowing through the vine into us. We don’t bear fruit when we are not abiding in the vine. Sin is the result of separating ourselves from the source of our righteousness. In fact, we can sever ourselves from Jesus… and still try to bear fruit. While we might bear all kind of “religious fruit”, to God that’s not fruit at all. We are producing NOTHING.
Notice what else Jesus said,
John 14:21
{14:21} He that hath my commandments,
and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth
me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and
will manifest myself to him.
If you see an obedient man who obeys the Lord…you’re looking at a man who loves Jesus. The Love must come first. Obedience is the fruit of love. Love comes from knowing how much he first loved us. Power to overcome comes from our union with Him.
again you do not applied the concept of faith in ti's context to the commandment. Sure what you just said is true but it doesn't sayanything against what I just said. LOL
LUKE2447
03-25-2011, 04:35 PM
Aquila,
As I said part of what you are saying is true. I think most of us understand we love him because he first loved us. Thats grace at least thats its leading edge. Most of us understand we must abide in Jesus and obedience flows from this.
Nonetheless you do seem to be very much minimizing the Lords commands. No one has said we should keep them out of our own flesh. No one has said to love rules first and not be joined in fellowship with Christ.
Here is a good example of why I teach Jesus and his commandments.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:19-20
Jesus said as soon as a convert is baptized teach them all of his commandments. Understand? Our concepts should not contradict the words of Jesus.
To him the first priority for a disciple is to learn and obey his teachings. The convert may not even understand HOW he is doing that he just is doing it because he has met Jesus and wants to please him.
Much more teaching should over time be given explaining new creation realities of course. Yet the Lord is not being a "Pharisee" or "religionist" because he gives his people rules and commands.
Rather he is THE KING OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!
He does have rules for his kingdom. If men want to be part of his reign they must be taught to obey him.
I really do agree with the side of the truth you are promoting. Yet there is that other side which I am presenting you that is fallen into neglect nowadays. People dont want to hear about rules or commands yet to Jesus this is actually how he judges whether you love him or not.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3
The Holy Spirit is trying to put into our hearts that loving Jesus is not something done apart from keeping his commands.
The Apostles stressed this. Why? Because Jesus stressed it to them.
Let us not be of those who attempt to make the commands of Jesus seem grievous.
:thumbsup
NorCal
03-25-2011, 05:26 PM
Jesus came to FULFILL the Law, not to abolish the law. As a matter of fact, he took the law one step further on most cases.
Law: To commit adultery is sin
Jesus: To THINK adultery is a sin
This is an example of fulfilling the law. Being born again will give you the power to overcome the "THINK" part, where as only abiding by the law can no longer bring salvation.
Here is a good read about Jesus Fulfilling the Law.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/journal-issues/32.1_Nelson.pdf
As the article proceeds to state, There was a Difference between "The Law of Moses" and the "Law of the Pharisees" and Jesus "Fulfilling the Law".
Take the 1st example of the Sabbath.
Law: Remember the Sabbath and Keep it Holy.
Pharisees: Don't travel, don't work, don't cook...
Jesus: ‘The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath: so the Son of man
is lord even of the Sabbath.’
Also note, that Jesus intended that the Law betaken by the Christians even further then the Pharisees did.
21 ‘You have heard that it was said to those of old, “You shall not murder; and whoever murders shall be subject to judgment.” 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be subject to judgment …
31 It was also said, “Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.” 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her commit adultery …
33 Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, “You shall not swear falsely, but pay to the Lord your oaths.” 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all … 37 But let your word be “Yes, yes”, “No, no”…
I think Nelson summarizes it very well in his Conclusion
Jesus’ teaching on the Law provides a clear answer to the question, ‘How does he want
Christians to live?’ He wants them, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to keep the laws in the OT, interpreted according to their purpose, and raised to the standard he set out in the Sermon
on the Mount. This has the effect of extending some laws (e.g. ‘You shall not murder’) and replacing others by more demanding versions of them (e.g. the food laws). Paul's teaching can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with this.
Intake replaced by Output
Action replaced by Thought
So how can one not say that Works are not for the Christian. Faith without Works is Dead. I will show you my Faith by my Works. Will works save you? Emphatically NO! But you will By the Holy Spirit, Fulfill all the PURPOSE of the Laws. Law without Gospel becomes moralism: the concept that if we just try hard enough we can save ourselves
Hence why even among the ranks for the Apostolic Movement you will see Preaches telling people that "You can Dress Holy, Walk Holy, Act Holy, and yet still not BE Holy". For the Work of the HOLY SPIRIT is to bring us into the IMAGE of GOD (As displayed in Christ) and HIS WORD (LAW). For the LAW is his WORD, and the WORD is CHRIST, and CHRIST (WORD/LAW) is IN YOU, your ONLY hope of Glory.
Side Note:
I think thats why the the Apostolic Doctrine is so powerful. As it teaches an equal emphasis on Faith AND Law just as Christ and the Apostles did.
GOD is WORD, WORD is LAW, LAW is CHRIST
LAW in US, WORD in US, CHRIST in US, GOD in US.
LUKE2447
03-26-2011, 06:13 PM
Jesus came to FULFILL the Law, not to abolish the law. As a matter of fact, he took the law one step further on most cases.
Law: To commit adultery is sin
Jesus: To THINK adultery is a sin
This is an example of fulfilling the law. Being born again will give you the power to overcome the "THINK" part, where as only abiding by the law can no longer bring salvation.
Here is a good read about Jesus Fulfilling the Law.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/journal-issues/32.1_Nelson.pdf
As the article proceeds to state, There was a Difference between "The Law of Moses" and the "Law of the Pharisees" and Jesus "Fulfilling the Law".
Take the 1st example of the Sabbath.
Law: Remember the Sabbath and Keep it Holy.
Pharisees: Don't travel, don't work, don't cook...
Jesus: ‘The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath: so the Son of man
is lord even of the Sabbath.’
Also note, that Jesus intended that the Law betaken by the Christians even further then the Pharisees did.
I think Nelson summarizes it very well in his Conclusion
Intake replaced by Output
Action replaced by Thought
So how can one not say that Works are not for the Christian. Faith without Works is Dead. I will show you my Faith by my Works. Will works save you? Emphatically NO! But you will By the Holy Spirit, Fulfill all the PURPOSE of the Laws. Law without Gospel becomes moralism: the concept that if we just try hard enough we can save ourselves
Hence why even among the ranks for the Apostolic Movement you will see Preaches telling people that "You can Dress Holy, Walk Holy, Act Holy, and yet still not BE Holy". For the Work of the HOLY SPIRIT is to bring us into the IMAGE of GOD (As displayed in Christ) and HIS WORD (LAW). For the LAW is his WORD, and the WORD is CHRIST, and CHRIST (WORD/LAW) is IN YOU, your ONLY hope of Glory.
Side Note:
I think thats why the the Apostolic Doctrine is so powerful. As it teaches an equal emphasis on Faith AND Law just as Christ and the Apostles did.
GOD is WORD, WORD is LAW, LAW is CHRIST
LAW in US, WORD in US, CHRIST in US, GOD in US.
:thumbsup
Aquila
03-28-2011, 06:54 AM
Aquila,
As I said part of what you are saying is true. I think most of us understand we love him because he first loved us. Thats grace at least thats its leading edge. Most of us understand we must abide in Jesus and obedience flows from this.
Nonetheless you do seem to be very much minimizing the Lords commands. No one has said we should keep them out of our own flesh. No one has said to love rules first and not be joined in fellowship with Christ.
Here is a good example of why I teach Jesus and his commandments.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:19-20
Jesus said as soon as a convert is baptized teach them all of his commandments. Understand? Our concepts should not contradict the words of Jesus.
To him the first priority for a disciple is to learn and obey his teachings. The convert may not even understand HOW he is doing that he just is doing it because he has met Jesus and wants to please him.
Much more teaching should over time be given explaining new creation realities of course. Yet the Lord is not being a "Pharisee" or "religionist" because he gives his people rules and commands.
Rather he is THE KING OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD!
He does have rules for his kingdom. If men want to be part of his reign they must be taught to obey him.
I really do agree with the side of the truth you are promoting. Yet there is that other side which I am presenting you that is fallen into neglect nowadays. People dont want to hear about rules or commands yet to Jesus this is actually how he judges whether you love him or not.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3
The Holy Spirit is trying to put into our hearts that loving Jesus is not something done apart from keeping his commands.
The Apostles stressed this. Why? Because Jesus stressed it to them.
Let us not be of those who attempt to make the commands of Jesus seem grievous.
Here's an interesting question I was asked once... I believe I've found a satisfactory answer... but I like to hear other people's perspective.
What are Christ's commands and teachings?
It's an interesting question.
Also, please understand, I believe in obedience. I simply believe that it is by the empowerment of Christ in us as we surrender to Him... not our own works. When I wake up I look in the mirror and say, "Jesus, live through me today. I don't want to work FOR you... I want you to do all things through me. I want to decrease, and you to increase. I want to fade away, so that you might shine through this clay."
Aquila
03-28-2011, 06:57 AM
Jesus came to FULFILL the Law, not to abolish the law. As a matter of fact, he took the law one step further on most cases.
Law: To commit adultery is sin
Jesus: To THINK adultery is a sin
This is an example of fulfilling the law. Being born again will give you the power to overcome the "THINK" part, where as only abiding by the law can no longer bring salvation.
Here is a good read about Jesus Fulfilling the Law.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/journal-issues/32.1_Nelson.pdf
As the article proceeds to state, There was a Difference between "The Law of Moses" and the "Law of the Pharisees" and Jesus "Fulfilling the Law".
Take the 1st example of the Sabbath.
Law: Remember the Sabbath and Keep it Holy.
Pharisees: Don't travel, don't work, don't cook...
Jesus: ‘The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath: so the Son of man
is lord even of the Sabbath.’
Also note, that Jesus intended that the Law betaken by the Christians even further then the Pharisees did.
I think Nelson summarizes it very well in his Conclusion
Intake replaced by Output
Action replaced by Thought
So how can one not say that Works are not for the Christian. Faith without Works is Dead. I will show you my Faith by my Works. Will works save you? Emphatically NO! But you will By the Holy Spirit, Fulfill all the PURPOSE of the Laws. Law without Gospel becomes moralism: the concept that if we just try hard enough we can save ourselves
Hence why even among the ranks for the Apostolic Movement you will see Preaches telling people that "You can Dress Holy, Walk Holy, Act Holy, and yet still not BE Holy". For the Work of the HOLY SPIRIT is to bring us into the IMAGE of GOD (As displayed in Christ) and HIS WORD (LAW). For the LAW is his WORD, and the WORD is CHRIST, and CHRIST (WORD/LAW) is IN YOU, your ONLY hope of Glory.
Side Note:
I think thats why the the Apostolic Doctrine is so powerful. As it teaches an equal emphasis on Faith AND Law just as Christ and the Apostles did.
GOD is WORD, WORD is LAW, LAW is CHRIST
LAW in US, WORD in US, CHRIST in US, GOD in US.
The issue isn't that works are not for the Christian. The issue is... where do such works originate? A religious heart focused on works for Jesus to earn salvation? Or a surrendered vessel allowing Jesus to live through the saint because they are crucified with Christ?
LUKE2447
03-28-2011, 08:25 AM
The issue isn't that works are not for the Christian. The issue is... where do such works originate? A religious heart focused on works for Jesus to earn salvation? Or a surrendered vessel allowing Jesus to live through the saint because they are crucified with Christ?
still works either way. Though #2 is the only one that saves. Also you just formed the basis that it is not a grace oriented salvation that many teach here. It is works but it is of source. You also have JUST TAUGHT practical righteousness for salvation.
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 11:18 AM
still works either way. Though #2 is the only one that saves. Also you just formed the basis that it is not a grace oriented salvation that many teach here. It is works but it is of source. You also have JUST TAUGHT practical righteousness for salvation.
Luke is teaching grace-flavored works :heeheehee
Scripture testifies, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in Christ. There is a new mark for a christian, a new creature life that can ONLY be lived and worked by grace.
Amen.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 11:36 AM
still works either way. Though #2 is the only one that saves. Also you just formed the basis that it is not a grace oriented salvation that many teach here. It is works but it is of source. You also have JUST TAUGHT practical righteousness for salvation.
Exactly, it's all about source. I know that before I discovered these principles I was VERY RELIGIOUS... but I wasn't letting Jesus live HIS life through me in the power of the Holy Ghost. I was working like a religious animal trying to earn His favor, trying to secure my salvation by works. Today I realize that it's human nature to want to DO SOMETHING. The hardest thing I'm discovering is DOING NOTHING, being DEAD, and allowing Christ to live through me... allowing myself to only act through Jesus Christ. Not MY rightousness... but HIS. I don't seek out sin... because He that dwells within me doesn't seek out sin. It's not that I don't seek out sin FOR Him, or even to be made holy... I'm already holy... even if I stumble. It's positional, a declaration before God based entirely on Christ's righteousness. Jesus was my propitiation, that I might be justified by faith, for by grace I have been saved through faith.
LUKE2447
03-28-2011, 11:58 AM
Luke is teaching grace-flavored works :heeheehee
Scripture testifies, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in Christ. There is a new mark for a christian, a new creature life that can ONLY be lived and worked by grace.
Amen.
Grace is the power of the HS which is "law" upon the heart. That is the righteousness of Christ. We do the will of God as HE did the will of GOd and that was by the Spirit leading him unto righteousness. The righteousness of Chist = practical works by the Spirit vs medium of letter which is good and useful but weak. IT is ONLYa change of medium not of practical righteousness of which are judged.
People want Grace to be a form of mercy concerning having to be righteous and not being judged by a mean God of the OT with to high a standard so now we have a new nice God who loves us.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:02 PM
Every individual church and denomination has a different set of man made standards. The Bible demands one thing... oneness with Christ Jesus. When we are one with Him, His life flows through us producing a holy life...yet without man's standards. I've known multitudes that life by "religion". They always ask the question, "Is it a sin to....?" That's the WRONG answer. The question should be, "Is Jesus guiding me to do....?" Jesus will NEVER guide one to do something inclean or sinful if they are totally filled and possessed by Jesus. HE is the standard of the church.
LUKE2447
03-28-2011, 12:04 PM
Exactly, it's all about source. I know that before I discovered these principles I was VERY RELIGIOUS... but I wasn't letting Jesus live HIS life through me in the power of the Holy Ghost. I was working like a religious animal trying to earn His favor, trying to secure my salvation by works. Today I realize that it's human nature to want to DO SOMETHING. The hardest thing I'm discovering is DOING NOTHING, being DEAD, and allowing Christ to live through me... allowing myself to only act through Jesus Christ. Not MY rightousness... but HIS. I don't seek out sin... because He that dwells within me doesn't seek out sin. It's not that I don't seek out sin FOR Him, or even to be made holy... I'm already holy... even if I stumble. It's positional, a declaration before God based entirely on Christ's righteousness. Jesus was my propitiation, that I might be justified by faith, for by grace I have been saved through faith.
False doctrine. The atonement of Christ is not FORENSIC JUSTIFICATION! Christ righteousness we receive is about his consideration of our heart and he places us in him because we humble our selves to his call/covenant. We receive status because of our response not simply a stated statusregardless of our response We are declared in right standing because our hearts are JUDGED SUCH.
LUKE2447
03-28-2011, 12:07 PM
Every individual church and denomination has a different set of man made standards. The Bible demands one thing... oneness with Christ Jesus. When we are one with Him, His life flows through us producing a holy life...yet without man's standards. I've known multitudes that life by "religion". They always ask the question, "Is it a sin to....?" That's the WRONG answer. The question should be, "Is Jesus guiding me to do....?" Jesus will NEVER guide one to do something inclean or sinful if they are totally filled and possessed by Jesus. HE is the standard of the church.
I hear people state they follow CHrist half nude(more like 80%) on beaches everywhere and turn around and talk about how good he is and how blah blah blah. Standard are recognized beliefs of modesty. Churches SHOULD have such.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:09 PM
False doctrine. The atonement of Christ is not FORENSIC JUSTIFICATION! Christ righteousness we receive is about his consideration of our heart and he places us in him because we humble our selves to his call/covenant. We receive status because of our response not simply a stated statusregardless of our response We are declared in right standing because our hearts are JUDGED SUCH.
Being fallen sinful creatures, I don't see this as possible. When one humbles themselves to Christ's call/covenant it's entirely due to the prompting and convicting of the Spirit. Without HIM... you can do NOTHING. Assume I don't have Christ... can I climb into the New Jerusalem and seize salvation? No. No decision, no choice, no action on my part can save me. When the Spirit of God draws the sinner into the calling prepared for them before the foundantions of the world, the soul cannot resist such an irresistible and all powerful grace. It's that soul's destiny, foreordained, predestined in Christ Jesus. God knew that He'd draw that soul and that said soul would BOW and submit before God said, "Let there be light."
Our salvation begins and ends in Christ Jesus. He is both the author and finisher of our faith.
LUKE2447
03-28-2011, 12:14 PM
Being fallen sinful creatures, I don't see this as possible. When one humbles themselves to Christ's call/covenant it's entirely due to the prompting and convicting of the Spirit. Without HIM... you can do NOTHING. Assume I don't have Christ... can I climb into the New Jerusalem and seize salvation? No. No decision, no choice, no action on my part can save me. When the Spirit of God draws the sinner into the calling prepared for them before the foundantions of the world, the soul cannot resist such an irresistible and all powerful grace. It's that soul's destiny, foreordained, predestined in Christ Jesus. God knew that He'd draw that soul and that said soul would BOW and submit before God said, "Let there be light."
Our salvation begins and ends in Christ Jesus. He is both the author and finisher of our faith.
NOW you believe in irresistible grace. Wow you continue on the path of heresy along with your Trinistarian and UR doctrine.
Timmy
03-28-2011, 12:18 PM
What did Jesus himself teach about salvation?
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:19 PM
NOW you believe in irresistible grace. Wow you continue on the path of heresy along with your Trinistarian and UR doctrine.
Is God resistible? Is God unaware of His own? Luke... God chose you before the foundation of the world through Jesus Christ. Remember... God isn't bound by time and space. All things are now to Him. IF you are of the elect... you're seated with Him in Christ Jesus already. God isn't up in Heaven HOPING you'll "hang in there" and be saved. God already knows your next stumble and has provided for your salvation through Jesus Christ. When Jesus died to atone for your sins, nailing them to His cross, ALL your sins were yet future. Yet in eternity ALL your sins were NOW at that moment on the cross. IF you are one of the elect, you have a new nature. YOU CANNOT continue in sin. That holy nature in you will rise to the surface and like a magnet pull you back into fellowship with your Father. And it is irresistible... why? Because it's WHO YOU ARE. IF you fall away, renounce Christ, and live a life of habitual sin, and do not return... you never were born again. You never were 100% His. Like Judas, you were a devil when He called you to follow. A son of perdition.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:24 PM
What did Jesus himself teach about salvation?
It begins here....
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
First and foremost... it takes being drawn by the very power and Spirit of God. You don't choose Him. He chooses you. In fact... He has chosen you in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
LUKE2447
03-28-2011, 12:28 PM
Is God resistible? Is God unaware of His own? Luke... God chose you before the foundation of the world through Jesus Christ. Remember... God isn't bound by time and space. All things are now to Him. IF you are of the elect... you're seated with Him in Christ Jesus already. God isn't up in Heaven HOPING you'll "hang in there" and be saved. God already knows your next stumble and has provided for your salvation through Jesus Christ. When Jesus died to atone for your sins, nailing them to His cross, ALL your sins were yet future. Yet in eternity ALL your sins were NOW at that moment on the cross. IF you are one of the elect, you have a new nature. YOU CANNOT continue in sin. That holy nature in you will rise to the surface and like a magnet pull you back into fellowship with your Father. And it is irresistible... why? Because it's WHO YOU ARE. IF you fall away, renounce Christ, and live a life of habitual sin, and do not return... you never were born again. You never were 100% His. Like Judas, you were a devil when He called you to follow. A son of perdition.
Aquila The Reformed. Yes it is irresistible. forknowledge and reality in time are two different things. God knew what will happen the reality of it had not yet happaned until it took place. God's forknowledge is of him acting ad doing justice in time toward our free will response.
irresistible grace is heresy.
Timmy
03-28-2011, 12:42 PM
It begins here....
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
. . .
Begins there? John 3 comes before John 6! :lol
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:42 PM
Aquila The Reformed. Yes it is irresistible. forknowledge and reality in time are two different things. God knew what will happen the reality of it had not yet happaned until it took place. God's forknowledge is of him acting ad doing justice in time toward our free will response.
irresistible grace is heresy.
So when God saw to it that you were presented with the truth of the Gospel... did He have a plan B? Just in case you resisted it the first time you heard it??? LOL
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:43 PM
Begins there? John 3 comes before John 6! :lol
.....everyone's a comedian. :lol
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:43 PM
It's rooted in God's WILL. Does God ever fail to have His way? Does God fail?
"Whoops. Sorry Gabriel, I lost one. Oh me! I just couldn't get that little guy to see it." ~ God
God isn't that powerless. Nor has God surrendered such power to man.
BeenThinkin
03-28-2011, 12:43 PM
.....everyone's a comedian. :lol
Yea, there's times we need to just laugh a little! :heeheehee
Been Thinkin
Timmy
03-28-2011, 12:44 PM
.....everyone's a comedian. :lol
:heeheehee
But seriously. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:44 PM
Yea, there's times we need to just laugh a little! :heeheehee
Been Thinkin
True that! :thumbsup
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:45 PM
:heeheehee
But seriously. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Soooo... are not those who believe those who are drawn? ;)
Timmy
03-28-2011, 12:48 PM
Soooo... are not those who believe those who are drawn? ;)
Good point. The sequence of events is clear. Still. Do you think it's true that nobody will believe unless God wants them to? Or will you say that God wants everyone to believe, and has drawn everyone ever born? Is the "elect" literally every human?
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:50 PM
Good point. The sequence of events is clear. Still. Do you think it's true that nobody will believe unless God wants them to? Or will you say that God wants everyone to believe, and has drawn everyone ever born? Is the "elect" literally every human?
God has chosen the elect to believe. It's simple. God hasn't chosen everyone to believe... yet still currently loosing the majority of the human race. Not a one of those predestined in Christ will perish. Is God fair? No. God is just. ALL MEN DESERVE HELL. It is only by God's grace that He has chosen the elect for Himself in Christ Jesus, by the blood of the cross. I've come to witness by asking the Lord in prayer, "Who are you drawing?", and then being sensitive to the Spirit. From there... it can get REAL interesting.
Timmy
03-28-2011, 12:54 PM
God has chosen the elect to believe. It's simple. God hasn't chosen everyone to believe... yet still currently loosing the majority of the human race. Not a one of those predestined in Christ will perish. Is God fair? No. God is just. ALL MEN DESERVE HELL. It is only by God's grace that He has chosen the elect for Himself.
Ah. That makes sense. Every one of us deserves hell, since we can't do the impossible. And some of us will be chosen to escape hell, even though we deserve it. Wait. Did I say that makes sense? :blink
Aquila
03-28-2011, 12:55 PM
We've all seen men and women attend church for years without being filled with the precious gift of the Holy Ghost. You can't pry salvation out of the hands of God just because you want it. If it comes... it will only come in God's timing and according to His will. If it doesn't... it is God's will. God knows what is in man.
LUKE2447
03-28-2011, 01:00 PM
Seriously.. I am not going into a Reformed debate especially with you. I just think is really sad you see a small point and still miss the detail of the whole. Which is typical of reformed doctrine. down you go more and more with James White and group. Sad really sad.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 01:04 PM
Seriously.. I am not going into a Reformed debate especially with you. I just think is really sad you see a small point and still miss the detail of the whole. Which is typical of reformed doctrine. down you go more and more with James White and group. Sad really sad.
All things begin with God. Not man. How does God see things? Are they not set in God's mind? Or is God guessing about our salvation?
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 01:14 PM
It's rooted in God's WILL. Does God ever fail to have His way? Does God fail?
"Whoops. Sorry Gabriel, I lost one. Oh me! I just couldn't get that little guy to see it." ~ God
God isn't that powerless. Nor has God surrendered such power to man.
Sure he did, when he gave us free will in the garden to choose. He also had devised the plan to redeem us, but that isn't forced on anyone. People have the will to choose salvation or not.
I think most that don't either have lack of faith to believe something like that exist or doesn't care because of their own interests at the time.
LUKE2447
03-28-2011, 01:21 PM
All things begin with God. Not man. How does God see things? Are they not set in God's mind? Or is God guessing about our salvation?
God knows in the end who will be saved. THAT HAS NOTHING to do with the reality of God's justice in time. His forknowledge is about how he would act in relation to free will. It does not make God act different. God treats those who would be delivered and fall away with the same justice as those who are delivered and stay in him for a long time and fall away in the end or nver totaly fall away. All those who come not matter the knowledge of the end receive the same justice.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 01:34 PM
Sure he did, when he gave us free will in the garden to choose. He also had devised the plan to redeem us, but that isn't forced on anyone. People have the will to choose salvation or not.
God devised a plan? lol God has determined salvation for His own. It's not a plan, it's not a struggle. God doesn't sit on the edge of His seat hoping we'll choose the right way. lol
I think most that don't either have lack of faith to believe something like that exist or doesn't care because of their own interests at the time.
I think some are just too self willed to realize that God is in total control.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 01:35 PM
God knows in the end who will be saved. THAT HAS NOTHING to do with the reality of God's justice in time. His forknowledge is about how he would act in relation to free will. It does not make God act different. God treats those who would be delivered and fall away with the same justice as those who are delivered and stay in him for a long time and fall away in the end or nver totaly fall away. All those who come not matter the knowledge of the end receive the same justice.
If God KNOWS what choice we will make without doubt... is it not already settled in the mind of God from eternity? Did God not see the elect choosing salvation and find that it was good? Thus He draws His own?
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 01:36 PM
God devised a plan? lol God has determined salvation for His own. It's not a plan, it's not a struggle. God doesn't sit on the edge of His seat hoping we'll choose the right way. lol
God certainly did devise a plan. God planned from the foundation of the world for the Lamb to be slain because He knew our choices. No God doesn't sit on the end of His seat because He already knows what we will choose. He still tries to reach us despite knowing we would embrace him or not!
see above in red for response
Aquila
03-28-2011, 02:15 PM
God certainly did devise a plan. God planned from the foundation of the world for the Lamb to be slain because He knew our choices. No God doesn't sit on the end of His seat because He already knows what we will choose. He still tries to reach us despite knowing we would embrace him or not!
So God fails to reach multitudes?
I contend that God never fails. Those who he has called and predestined are His own. They are those whom Jesus died to purchase by His own blood.
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 02:16 PM
So God fails to reach multitudes?
No God reaches them. They refuse to respond. God did not create robots. We have free will to choose or not to. God doesn't pull our arm and say, I ordained you to be saved and you are going to be saved whether you want to or not! Thats insane. Jesus said whosoever will, let him come. God hasn't failed at all.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 02:17 PM
However, I'd like to share something here. The concepts behind "Grace Walk" are not restricted to those who believe in OSAS or Calvinism. Living a life empowered by Jesus Christ indwelling us, conforming us to His image, is a valuable truth regardless of one's convictions on this.
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 02:18 PM
So God fails to reach multitudes?
I contend that God never fails. Those who he has called and predestined are His own. They are those whom Jesus died to purchase by His own blood.
Bible doesn't back up anything of the sort. Jesus died for the sins of the world, not just the preordained. He died for the just and the unjust. The holy and unholy. The righteous and unrighteous. He died for them all which is why it hurt him so much to see his own reject Him.
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 02:21 PM
However, I'd like to share something here. The concepts behind "Grace Walk" are not restricted to those who believe in OSAS or Calvinism. Living a life empowered by Jesus Christ indwelling us, conforming us to His image, is a valuable truth regardless of one's convictions on this.
What you are saying is pure calvinism and is completely outside the boundaries of scripture that define God, free will, and grace.
It rewrites who we are, men in Calvinism have no choice of heaven or hell. They were preordained to be in one or the other.
God applies irresistable grace to some, but leaves others in their darkness due to his foreknowledge.
There are so many problems with TULIP to the extent it can be taken that I'm not even sure Calvin himself would support some of the things like,
Once you are saved, you can kill a man and kill yourself and still go to heaven.
This creates a limited atonement for Jesus' blood rather than universal. Christ died only for those in heaven at the eternal judgement. It is sad to display a Saviour whose love is unmerited in any way to such a doctrine. Jesus wills all to be saved, not just those who He knows will be.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 02:22 PM
Bible doesn't back up anything of the sort. Jesus died for the sins of the world, not just the preordained. He died for the just and the unjust. The holy and unholy. The righteous and unrighteous. He died for them all which is why it hurt him so much to see his own reject Him.
Then Jesus failed.
In my mind Jesus did die for the whole world... However, the reality is that those who are predestined according to God's foreknowledge are those who will be saved.
LUKE2447
03-28-2011, 02:24 PM
If God KNOWS what choice we will make without doubt... is it not already settled in the mind of God from eternity? Did God not see the elect choosing salvation and find that it was good?
Thus He draws His own?
Two totally different aspects that you have fused togethor for whatever reason. God sees his justice in time. He doesn't change how he acts because he forknew. You have God acting because of his foreknowledge to affect his justice in time. Typical flawed mentality. God knows how he will acts to us in time inrelationto free will. For him not to offer to all would be injustice. Whether or not he knows who will be saved does not negate his justice to everyone else. You have partiality in God because of forknowledge and a unjust God. God acts just. God went down the corridors of time to know the truth and acted in time. In that he did not know but in reality of reflection of what would happen he does know.
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 02:25 PM
Then Jesus failed.
In my mind Jesus did die for the whole world... However, the reality is that those who are predestined according to God's foreknowledge are those who will be saved.
If Jesus failed, NO ONE would be saved.
God's foreknowledge is based on WHAT he knows each person's decision will be. It isn't based on some paradigm of choose this one but not that one. Because God knows the choice you make in 5 minutes, an hour, tomorrow, a week from now; God has foreordained the church to be this certain way and each believer individually he knows the next time failure occurs, victory occurs, etc.
That doesn't mean we have no free will. On the contrary that is HOW God knows our predestination.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 02:27 PM
What you are saying is pure calvinism and is completely outside the boundaries of scripture that define God, free will, and grace.
It rewrites who we are, men in Calvinism have no choice of heaven or hell. They were preordained to be in one or the other.
Onefaith... did you choose Him or did He choose you??? He chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world. While according to your perception, trapped in time and space, you did "choose". However, in God's mind it was set. You'd choose. End of subject with God, there was no question.
God applies irresistable grace to some, but leaves others in their darkness due to his foreknowledge.
I can agree with this.
There are so many problems with TULIP to the extent it can be taken that I'm not even sure Calvin himself would support some of the things like,
Once you are saved, you can kill a man and kill yourself and still go to heaven.
The most vile sinner can be saved Onefaith.
This creates a limited atonement for Jesus' blood rather than universal. Christ died only for those in heaven at the eternal judgement. It is sad to display a Saviour whose love is unmerited in any way to such a doctrine. Jesus wills all to be saved, not just those who He knows will be.
Ummmm... sad display? Every last one of us deserves Hell. No exceptions. The fact that God would choose for Himself an elect body, in Christ Jesus, to save the human race from total separation from Him forever is an act of His sovereign will and grace that reveals His love. He didn't have to save a one of us. He doesn't need us. But He loves us and has chosen us.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 02:30 PM
If Jesus failed, NO ONE would be saved.
God's foreknowledge is based on WHAT he knows each person's decision will be. It isn't based on some paradigm of choose this one but not that one. Because God knows the choice you make in 5 minutes, an hour, tomorrow, a week from now; God has foreordained the church to be this certain way and each believer individually he knows the next time failure occurs, victory occurs, etc.
That doesn't mean we have no free will. On the contrary that is HOW God knows our predestination.
Think about it Onefaith. You're right... God knows exactly who will choose Him when He draws them and always has. That number will never change. In God's mind... it's set. And so God has determined that He will draw those whom He has chosen.
Aquila
03-28-2011, 02:31 PM
Two totally different aspects that you have fused togethor for whatever reason. God sees his justice in time. He doesn't change how he acts because he forknew. You have God acting because of his foreknowledge to affect his justice in time. Typical flawed mentality. God knows how he will acts to us in time inrelationto free will. For him not to offer to all would be injustice. Whether or not he knows who will be saved does not negate his justice to everyone else. You have partiality in God because of forknowledge and a unjust God. God acts just. God went down the corridors of time to know the truth and acted in time. In that he did not know but in reality of reflection of what would happen he does know.
What God chooses is just.
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 02:35 PM
Onefaith... did you choose Him or did He choose you??? He chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world. While according to your perception, trapped in time and space, you did "choose". However, in God's mind it was set. You'd choose. End of subject with God, there was no question.
Both. He chose me because He seen beyond the corridors of time that I would choose Him! It was I who made the choice to accept his grace and forgiveness that He was offering me. He didn't make me take it, nor did he slam it in my hand anyway.
I can agree with this.
which is very sad
The most vile sinner can be saved Onefaith.
so you can agree that a person can commit murder and not repent and kill themselves and God will judge them righteous?
Ummmm... sad display? Every last one of us deserves Hell. No exceptions. The fact that God would choose for Himself an elect body, in Christ Jesus, to save the human race from total separation from Him forever is an act of His sovereign will and grace that reveals His love. He didn't have to save a one of us. He doesn't need us. But He loves us
You are still missing the point as to why He ordained us and chose us. Its in the Bible if you will look. Why did he choose any of us? Why does he still commend preaching to all instead of the select few?
.
See above in red
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 02:38 PM
Think about it Onefaith. You're right... God knows exactly who will choose Him when He draws them and always has. That number will never change. In God's mind... it's set. And so God has determined that He will draw those whom He has chosen.
You totally contradicted yourself. First you said God knows who will choose him and then you said God choose Himself who He will draw and in God's mind its set. HOW did it get set? On what basis does God choose. You cannot miss this important point. You just said it in the first sentence. On what basis???
Aquila
03-28-2011, 02:41 PM
You totally contradicted yourself. First you said God knows who will choose him and then you said God choose Himself who He will draw and in God's mind its set. HOW did it get set? On what basis does God choose. You cannot miss this important point. You just said it in the first sentence. On what basis???
They work together Onefaith. And it's set in God's mind. The number never changes. God knows and has chosen those who are His.
onefaith2
03-28-2011, 03:24 PM
They work together Onefaith. And it's set in God's mind. The number never changes. God knows and has chosen those who are His.
Why do you not answer me how or what merit He chooses. How does He know who to choose and on what basis does He choose.
Michael The Disciple
03-28-2011, 05:29 PM
Why do you not answer me how or what merit He chooses. How does He know who to choose and on what basis does He choose.
That is called the sovereignty of God.
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom. 9:11-15
Aquila
03-29-2011, 07:17 AM
That is called the sovereignty of God.
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom. 9:11-15
Amen.
LUKE2447
03-29-2011, 07:34 AM
What God chooses is just.
that is a response.. DUH Talk about ignoring the whole issue by making a DUH statement. Dude you are off into doctrine la la land.
1) UR
2) OSAS
3) Trinitarianism
LUKE2447
03-29-2011, 07:35 AM
Why do you not answer me how or what merit He chooses. How does He know who to choose and on what basis does He choose.
Because he doesn't know all his new found doctrines and needs time.
1) UR
2) OSAS
3) Trinitarianism
and others...
onefaith2
03-29-2011, 08:46 AM
That is called the sovereignty of God.
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom. 9:11-15
In the context of this chapter and his discussion, do you really believe this is referring to eternal salvation when Jesus Himself said Whosoever will, let him come.
For Jesus to make such a statement calling anyone who would answer, this would conflict with that regarding God has already chosen without any bias at all whom He will have mercy and upon whom he won't
How does one reconcile these two opinions. I have only found one way. What about you?
Aquila
03-29-2011, 09:10 AM
In the context of this chapter and his discussion, do you really believe this is referring to eternal salvation when Jesus Himself said Whosoever will, let him come.
For Jesus to make such a statement calling anyone who would answer, this would conflict with that regarding God has already chosen without any bias at all whom He will have mercy and upon whom he won't
How does one reconcile these two opinions. I have only found one way. What about you?
Jesus says whoever will, let him come. However, Jesus also tells us that no man comes to Him unless the Father draw him. Therefore we know that those who come are drawn by the sovereign will and grace of God. No one is entitled to salvation. Mercy is given to whom God wills it. Take into consideration those who have been seeking the Holy Ghost for years. Only God can give it. God will only give it when and if He chooses to. No man can come to Jesus out of self will or personal desire. One can only be drawn and enter in because the Father is drawing him or her.
onefaith2
03-29-2011, 09:37 AM
Jesus says whoever will, let him come. However, Jesus also tells us that no man comes to Him unless the Father draw him. Therefore we know that those who come are drawn by the sovereign will and grace of God. No one is entitled to salvation. Mercy is given to whom God wills it. Take into consideration those who have been seeking the Holy Ghost for years. Only God can give it. God will only give it when and if He chooses to. No man can come to Jesus out of self will or personal desire. One can only be drawn and enter in because the Father is drawing him or her.
<< 2 Peter 3:9 >>
New International Version (©1984)
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
So is this just the elect or does He will all to come to repentance?
Just a side note *I haven't YET met one man or woman whom God has not tried to draw yet. Just because the Spirit draws, does not mean everyone will answer.
I agree and preach that no one can come to Him except he draw.
One of the greatest pictures of this drawing in my opinion is in Revelation 3
<< Revelation 3:20 >>
New International Version (©1984)
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
Aquila
03-29-2011, 11:03 AM
<< 2 Peter 3:9 >>
New International Version (©1984)
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
So is this just the elect or does He will all to come to repentance?
Just a side note *I haven't YET met one man or woman whom God has not tried to draw yet. Just because the Spirit draws, does not mean everyone will answer.
I agree and preach that no one can come to Him except he draw.
One of the greatest pictures of this drawing in my opinion is in Revelation 3
<< Revelation 3:20 >>
New International Version (©1984)
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
We both believe that the drawing begins with God. And though we have some differences, they aren't major in my opinion.
Here's a thought on 2 Peter. It's a Pastoral Epistle written by Peter to believers. Notice something, Peter writes:
2 Peter 3:9
New International Version (©1984)
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone
Notice that Peter speaks of God not being slow in keeping His promise and is patient with "you" (believers), not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Is it possible that Peter is saying that God doesn't desire for a believer to perish, but that all believers live repentant lives?
onefaith2
03-29-2011, 11:27 AM
We both believe that the drawing begins with God. And though we have some differences, they aren't major in my opinion.
Here's a thought on 2 Peter. It's a Pastoral Epistle written by Peter to believers. Notice something, Peter writes:
2 Peter 3:9
New International Version (©1984)
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone
Notice that Peter speaks of God not being slow in keeping His promise and is patient with "you" (believers), not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Is it possible that Peter is saying that God doesn't desire for a believer to perish, but that all believers live repentant lives?
Thats the way I read it
but couple that with John 3:16
and you have the desire of God he loves all the world and wants whosoever to believe and not perish.
So the spirit of the passage extends to nonbelievers.
Aquila
03-29-2011, 02:06 PM
Thats the way I read it
but couple that with John 3:16
and you have the desire of God he loves all the world and wants whosoever to believe and not perish.
So the spirit of the passage extends to nonbelievers.
It's important to keep a text in it's own context. I could couple it with verses about predestination and claim that of course, this applies strictly to the elect (believers). In context, Peter is addressing believers. No doubt, confession and repentance of sin is something all believers must do, therefore in it's context we know that God isn't willing that a single believer perish, but that we all repent of our sins. Those who don't and go on to fall away, were NEVER truly of us (the elect).
And I agree, God loved the world so much that He has chosen from the world a body of His own. The whosoever can only apply to those that the Father is indeed drawing to the Lord Jesus. God's timing, ways, and desire to show mercy where He desires to show mercy can't be questioned. Being Pentecostal we've both known of those who never received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Why did God withhold the promise? Could it be... they are not of us? Could it be that it simply isn't their time yet? Those are things I've considered.
Just sharing thoughts.
God bless.
onefaith2
03-29-2011, 02:29 PM
It's important to keep a text in it's own context. I could couple it with verses about predestination and claim that of course, this applies strictly to the elect (believers). In context, Peter is addressing believers. No doubt, confession and repentance of sin is something all believers must do, therefore in it's context we know that God isn't willing that a single believer perish, but that we all repent of our sins. Those who don't and go on to fall away, were NEVER truly of us (the elect).
And I agree, God loved the world so much that He has chosen from the world a body of His own. The whosoever can only apply to those that the Father is indeed drawing to the Lord Jesus. God's timing, ways, and desire to show mercy where He desires to show mercy can't be questioned. Being Pentecostal we've both known of those who never received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Why did God withhold the promise? Could it be... they are not of us? Could it be that it simply isn't their time yet? Those are things I've considered.
Just sharing thoughts.
God bless.
I don't know if I believe withholding the Holy Ghost from someone is God withholding salvation or just empowerment. None of us are saved from hell in my opinion till we get there. So for someone who tries their hardest and doesn't seem to be receiving the HG, I think that only means that it is God's intent that they continually seek Him and trust in His promises. I don't pretend to know all the answers in these cases nor do I look at these precious people as hell bound. If they have the same promises I do, we are both heading in the right direction.
Aquila
03-29-2011, 02:49 PM
I don't know if I believe withholding the Holy Ghost from someone is God withholding salvation or just empowerment. None of us are saved from hell in my opinion till we get there. So for someone who tries their hardest and doesn't seem to be receiving the HG, I think that only means that it is God's intent that they continually seek Him and trust in His promises. I don't pretend to know all the answers in these cases nor do I look at these precious people as hell bound. If they have the same promises I do, we are both heading in the right direction.
I agree, there is no reason to relegate one who hasn't received the Holy Ghost after seeking it as Hell bound. However, I do believe that it is safe to say that it's obviously not in God's sovereign timing for them to receive the Holy Ghost at that time. Again, this affirms God's sovereign will over the will of man.
TGBTG
03-29-2011, 03:36 PM
I don't know if I believe withholding the Holy Ghost from someone is God withholding salvation or just empowerment. None of us are saved from hell in my opinion till we get there. So for someone who tries their hardest and doesn't seem to be receiving the HG, I think that only means that it is God's intent that they continually seek Him and trust in His promises. I don't pretend to know all the answers in these cases nor do I look at these precious people as hell bound. If they have the same promises I do, we are both heading in the right direction.
Hmm...I believe the bible says we have eternal life right now
John 5:24 (NASB) "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and (W)believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
A believer has already passed from death to life.
We are seated already in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6)
1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
We are sons of God right now. Why will God then throw his children to hell?
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