Proper Church Discipline

[Socialite]

Because of the way some read the Bible (as a "how to" manual of all things), they read scriptures that seem to contradict -- and so, quite often, they get creative with the text so that it doesn't contradict, instead of accepting that there may not be a tense grid at all, even while the scriptures record diverse perspectives.

One such category is Church Discipline. Two generations ago the churches were applying discipline in a vindictive and arbitrary fashion that justly brought it into disrepute; today the pendulum has swung to the other extreme—discipline is almost wholly neglected.

What do AFF'ers feel about Church Discipline?

Keep the following scriptures in mind as well:

Hebrews 12:1-14; Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-11; Galatians 6:1; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15; 1 Timothy 1:20; 1 Timothy 5:19-20; Titus 3:9-11

Churches that do not practice and teach discipline, are they robbing the congregation of the value of community? How does a community achieve discipline without being legalistic, fear-driven and without giving the leaders lordship over the flock (instead of a washing cloth to serve)? (I really think this is where the singular pastor model fails big time, by the way)

[aegsm76]

One of my favorites, which I do not remember the reference to, is something like:
"Them that sin, rebuke before all, that others may fear"...
I don't see much of that happening!

[NotforSale]

Discipline within any Religion is difficult, as the "Voice of God" cannot be validated. This is why the pendulum swings all over the place, and when the facts are fabricated from unknown Worlds, eventually Trust is lost.

We also must admit that the Bible is a complicated Book. If the Bible was easy, we wouldn’t be spending our entire life debating its content. Healthy confession admits that we don’t have all the answers, and honesty keeps a “Family” together. When a certain Group claims “Absolutes” in God and lifestyle (always, and never), to me this is a warning sign that human cruelty is on the horizon.

The bottom line with me is, right and wrong is not rocket science. If people would just focus on simple concepts, such as not hurting another person, we would avoid sin. And if people do sin, which they will, we need to stop treating the failed like there is no hope for them. The lack of patience for struggling people is probably the number one cause of abusive discipline.

Leaders in Faith should also avoid ANY type of Witch Hunt. Unless you have the facts, don't assume people are doing something wrong. As a Pastor, I will kill the "Rumor Weed" as quick as I can. I hate gossip, as this is probably one of the worst problems within any group, including Faith and the Corporate World.

[Truthseeker]

One of my favorites, which I do not remember the reference to, is something like:
"Them that sin, rebuke before all, that others may fear"...
I don't see much of that happening!

The thing is that applies to rebuking elders in the church even though it could apply to church as well.

[Truthseeker]

I do think lack of accountability has hurt us.

[Hoovie]

My Mennonite people practice closed communion. If someone is unwilling to line up they are excommunicated publicly. Sometimes the exact reason is mentioned and sometimes it is kept more discrete.

[Socialite]

Discipline within any Religion is difficult, as the "Voice of God" cannot be validated. This is why the pendulum swings all over the place, and when the facts are fabricated from unknown Worlds, eventually Trust is lost.

We also must admit that the Bible is a complicated Book. If the Bible was easy, we wouldn’t be spending our entire life debating its content. Healthy confession admits that we don’t have all the answers, and honesty keeps a “Family” together. When a certain Group claims “Absolutes” in God and lifestyle (always, and never), to me this is a warning sign that human cruelty is on the horizon.

The bottom line with me is, right and wrong is not rocket science. If people would just focus on simple concepts, such as not hurting another person, we would avoid sin. And if people do sin, which they will, we need to stop treating the failed like there is no hope for them. The lack of patience for struggling people is probably the number one cause of abusive discipline.

Leaders in Faith should also avoid ANY type of Witch Hunt. Unless you have the facts, don't assume people are doing something wrong. As a Pastor, I will kill the "Rumor Weed" as quick as I can. I hate gossip, as this is probably one of the worst problems within any group, including Faith and the Corporate World.

Gossip is definitely something we as a faith community try not to tolerate. If it happens, Mt 18 (going to the person) is definitely the recommended route.

That aside, and witch hunts aside, what is the proper place for church discipline as we listen and reflect on what the early church did in some circumstances?

[Socialite]

1 Corinthians 5:

After the specifics of the boasting incestuous man... Paul says this:

When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer[j] yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.

Would this come off as overly-judgmental today? And how is that reconciled with Galatians 6?

Is Galatians 6 a picture of restoration, while 1 Corinthians 5 is a picture of habitual and blatant hypocrisy and sin?

[missourimary]

I've seen quite a bit that fell under the heading of "church discipline" that needed, itself, to be disciplined.

Discipline should always be coupled with love and hope.

[MissBrattified]

I've seen quite a bit that fell under the heading of "church discipline" that needed, itself, to be disciplined.

Discipline should always be coupled with love and hope.
:thumbsup

[pelathais]

Because of the way some read the Bible (as a "how to" manual of all things), they read scriptures that seem to contradict -- and so, quite often, they get creative with the text so that it doesn't contradict, instead of accepting that there may not be a tense grid at all, even while the scriptures record diverse perspectives.

One such category is Church Discipline. Two generations ago the churches were applying discipline in a vindictive and arbitrary fashion that justly brought it into disrepute; today the pendulum has swung to the other extreme—discipline is almost wholly neglected.

What do AFF'ers feel about Church Discipline?

Keep the following scriptures in mind as well:

Hebrews 12:1-14; Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-11; Galatians 6:1; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15; 1 Timothy 1:20; 1 Timothy 5:19-20; Titus 3:9-11

Churches that do not practice and teach discipline, are they robbing the congregation of the value of community? How does a community achieve discipline without being legalistic, fear-driven and without giving the leaders lordship over the flock (instead of a washing cloth to serve)? (I really think this is where the singular pastor model fails big time, by the way)

"Tense grid..." I like that. That's nice phrasing. I've forgotten everything else because I liked your word picture so much. What was the question?

[Truthseeker]

1 Corinthians 5:

After the specifics of the boasting incestuous man... Paul says this:

When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer[j] yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.

Would this come off as overly-judgmental today? And how is that reconciled with Galatians 6?

Is Galatians 6 a picture of restoration, while 1 Corinthians 5 is a picture of habitual and blatant hypocrisy and sin?


I think you got it right with "habtual" as in refuses restoration or to repent then they should be disfellowshipped, even then restoration is till the goal. When Paul spoke of turning someone over to the devil he still mentioned that it might save them.

[aegsm76]

Gossip is definitely something we as a faith community try not to tolerate. If it happens, Mt 18 (going to the person) is definitely the recommended route.

That aside, and witch hunts aside, what is the proper place for church discipline as we listen and reflect on what the early church did in some circumstances?

In one of the churches I attended everyone had to go through a new membership class, which was taught by the pastor.
I think it was 4-6 weeks and was taught on Wednesday night. At the end of the class, you had to sign a paper.
I don't remember everything that was in there, but one thing I do remember was that gossip was specifically addressed.
I don't know if it was a direct result, but that church had the least gossip and most loving environment of any church that I have attended.

[Hoovie]

In one of the churches I attended everyone had to go through a new membership class, which was taught by the pastor.
I think it was 4-6 weeks and was taught on Wednesday night. At the end of the class, you had to sign a paper.
I don't remember everything that was in there, but one thing I do remember was that gossip was specifically addressed.
I don't know if it was a direct result, but that church had the least gossip and most loving environment of any church that I have attended.

I think the new converts/membership classes are pretty common now days.

I had strong disagreement with my former denomination about this 25 yrs ago when I left... of course they delayed baptism until after the course, so that's a little different.