Killing Bulls & Goats Was Easier Than Grace

[Mr. Smith]

To those of you who believe that one must 1) Repent; 2) Be baptized; and 3) Be filled with the Holy Spirit only by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues.......


......it was easier to be right with God in the Old Testament when all you had to do was obey the Levitical law and drag animals to the Tabernacle to be sacrificed.

Why? Because there are some people who try and try and try and try and try and try and try, to "Get the Holy Ghost" and just never can speak in tongues. For those people, it would be easier to just kill a goat.


And to those of you who believe that a person is saved at repentance but that a person isn't filled with the Holy Spirit until they display the initial sign of speaking in tongues, it would be easier to just be one of the "Holy men of God" that spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, and just go kill goat.

Why? Because there are people that try and try and try and try and try and try and try, to be filled with the Spirit so they can have the power everyone else does, but they just can't pull it off.



According to these beliefs, maybe the New Covenant isn't all that great.

[onefaith2]

Easier to obey the 613 commandments of the law than to believe if God said he would give you the Holy Ghost, He will do it? On what planet would obeying commandments be easier than just accepting the promises of God and waiting for those to happen?

[Austin]

To those of you who believe that one must 1) Repent; 2) Be baptized; and 3) Be filled with the Holy Spirit only by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues.......


......it was easier to be right with God in the Old Testament when all you had to do was obey the Levitical law and drag animals to the Tabernacle to be sacrificed.

Why? Because there are some people who try and try and try and try and try and try and try, to "Get the Holy Ghost" and just never can speak in tongues. For those people, it would be easier to just kill a goat.


And to those of you who believe that a person is saved at repentance but that a person isn't filled with the Holy Spirit until they display the initial sign of speaking in tongues, it would be easier to just be one of the "Holy men of God" that spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, and just go kill goat.

Why? Because there are people that try and try and try and try and try and try and try, to be filled with the Spirit so they can have the power everyone else does, but they just can't pull it off.



According to these beliefs, maybe the New Covenant isn't all that great.

Are you referring to your self or someone else in your post? I have seen that happen before.

[Mr. Smith]

Easier to obey the 613 commandments of the law than to believe if God said he would give you the Holy Ghost, He will do it? On what planet would obeying commandments be easier than just accepting the promises of God and waiting for those to happen?



It would be easier to obey 5,000 commandments that were possible than one commandment that was impossible.

[Austin]

Actually the bible said it is a gift from God. So that is more on the level that all we have to do is believe and ask for it. I'm suspicious your point is different from your post.

[Digging4Truth]

Easier to obey the 613 commandments of the law than to believe if God said he would give you the Holy Ghost, He will do it? On what planet would obeying commandments be easier than just accepting the promises of God and waiting for those to happen?

Were all 613 of those laws from God?
If so... how many pertained to the job of the priests and weren't something the average Israelite had to keep with in his daily life?

Just wondering. It seems that your post probably isn't a fair depiction. But... you never know.

[Mr. Smith]

Are you referring to your self or someone else in your post? I have seen that happen before.



I'm speaking for my cousin who sat at my dinner table and wept as he told me of his 35 year fruitless quest to be filled with the Holy Spirit and when shown the truth of God's Word said, "I just thought I was never good enough."

[Mr. Smith]

Actually the bible said it is a gift from God. So that is more on the level that all we have to do is believe and ask for it. I'm suspicious your point is different from your post.



Yes, all we have to do is believe and ask for it. Luke 11 says so. But many believe, many ask, but many come up empty on tongues.

[onefaith2]

It would be easier to obey 5,000 commandments that were possible than one commandment that was impossible.

The Holy Ghost isn't a commandment, its a promise. If someone believe Acts 2:38 and does their part, God will do his. Sometimes it takes time, but to give up is to quit believing the promise is already theirs. Faith is about going on what isn't seen, not what is seen. I know its hard because what some preach from the pulpit, but if those would recognize the power of God's promises, and that they never fail; this would not be an issue with the desperate believe who wants to receive the Holy Ghost to be saved from hell. God will save them if they seek Christ Jesus. Its a promise. So if salvation is a promise and the HG is a promise, one can understand God will come through, no matter how long it takes them to "speak in tongues"

[Aquila]

To those of you who believe that one must 1) Repent; 2) Be baptized; and 3) Be filled with the Holy Spirit only by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues.......


......it was easier to be right with God in the Old Testament when all you had to do was obey the Levitical law and drag animals to the Tabernacle to be sacrificed.

Why? Because there are some people who try and try and try and try and try and try and try, to "Get the Holy Ghost" and just never can speak in tongues. For those people, it would be easier to just kill a goat.


And to those of you who believe that a person is saved at repentance but that a person isn't filled with the Holy Spirit until they display the initial sign of speaking in tongues, it would be easier to just be one of the "Holy men of God" that spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, and just go kill goat.

Why? Because there are people that try and try and try and try and try and try and try, to be filled with the Spirit so they can have the power everyone else does, but they just can't pull it off.



According to these beliefs, maybe the New Covenant isn't all that great.

The timing of a believer's salvation is predicated upon God's sovereign will, not the will of the believer in question. The timing when one is filled with the Holy Ghost is entirely up to God. All aspects of salvation are predicated upon God's will and grace... not man's effort and desire.

[onefaith2]

Yes, all we have to do is believe and ask for it. Luke 11 says so. But many believe, many ask, but many come up empty on tongues.

None of us have come back with eternal life yet either. We still are awaiting heaven. Does that stop us from believing? Jesus said he would come back yet 2000 years have passed by, no return yet.. does that stop us from believing?

I hope our churches get the revelation of God's promises instead of forcing people to seek for tongues when the experience is promised to them if they believe

[Digging4Truth]

The timing of a believer's salvation is predicated upon God's sovereign will, not the will of the believer in question. The timing when one is filled with the Holy Ghost is entirely up to God. All aspects of salvation are predicated upon God's will and grace... not man's effort and desire.

God's word is God's will... right?

Repent and be baptized and after many days... or right away... or whenever I get around to it... you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[onefaith2]

The timing of a believer's salvation is predicated upon God's sovereign will, not the will of the believer in question. The timing when one is filled with the Holy Ghost is entirely up to God. All aspects of salvation are predicated upon God's will and grace... not man's effort and desire.

Its our society and our makeup that wants to KNOW the point that we are 100% saved. Our solace is in Christ and his promises, not even in experiences although they come with it. His Spirit can bear witness with our spirit that we are the children of God by faith.

Good post Aquila.

[onefaith2]

I'm speaking for my cousin who sat at my dinner table and wept as he told me of his 35 year fruitless quest to be filled with the Holy Spirit and when shown the truth of God's Word said, "I just thought I was never good enough."

Yep thats the problem within our churches. Because of the 3 step plan in acts 2:38 and its application thereof, we don't have a doctrine for those waiting to receive their promises and thats the problem. They have every bit of scripture promising their salvation if they continue as we who have received the Holy Ghost do. Its all based on his promises.

[LUKE2447]

The timing of a believer's salvation is predicated upon God's sovereign will, not the will of the believer in question. The timing when one is filled with the Holy Ghost is entirely up to God. All aspects of salvation are predicated upon God's will and grace... not man's effort and desire.

OH MY.. I agree! Though probably not totally on specifics... lol

[LUKE2447]

Here is my question... Do you works have other spiritual gifts?

1.The Word of Knowledge
2.The Word of Wisdom

Subjective to some point can you verify?

3.The Gift of Prophecy
4.The Gift of Faith - again can you verify?
5.The Gifts of Healings
6.The Working of Miracles
7.The Discerning of Spirits - different views on what is meant and can one verify?
8.Different Kinds of Tongues
9.The Interpretation of Tongues

[Mr. Smith]

The Holy Ghost isn't a commandment, its a promise. If someone believe Acts 2:38 and does their part, God will do his. Sometimes it takes time, but to give up is to quit believing the promise is already theirs. Faith is about going on what isn't seen, not what is seen. I know its hard because what some preach from the pulpit, but if those would recognize the power of God's promises, and that they never fail; this would not be an issue with the desperate believe who wants to receive the Holy Ghost to be saved from hell. God will save them if they seek Christ Jesus. Its a promise. So if salvation is a promise and the HG is a promise, one can understand God will come through, no matter how long it takes them to "speak in tongues"


Alrighty, I'll rephrase it to fit your theology:

It's easier to obey 5,000 commandments than to see one promise fulfilled that is never fulfilled. And you know, the word "Promise" makes this entire discussion even sillier. So here we have scores of people who have fulfilled the "commandment" part after being told that if they do, they'll get something, and then they beg and beg and beg and beg and beg to receive the "Promise" and never get what they were "promised." Doesn't seem like much of a "promise" to me.

Can you hand me a knife? I'm gonna go kill a bull. It's a lot easier than your "promise."

[Mr. Smith]

The timing of a believer's salvation is predicated upon God's sovereign will, not the will of the believer in question. The timing when one is filled with the Holy Ghost is entirely up to God. All aspects of salvation are predicated upon God's will and grace... not man's effort and desire.


Really??? The timing has already been established and mandated. It's God's will that ALL come to repentance. The only thing that remains is man's desire which is fulfilled when he calls upon the name of the Lord.

[Mr. Smith]

God's word is God's will... right?

Repent and be baptized and after many days... or right away... or whenever I get around to it... you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Exactly. That doesn't make a bit of sense, does it? "Hey guys, it's December 25, let's open the gifts I promised you."








"You know guys.....I don't think you're ready for your gifts. Let's wait until Independence Day next year."

[Austin]

Yes, all we have to do is believe and ask for it. Luke 11 says so. But many believe, many ask, but many come up empty on tongues.

The BIG problem with this subject of the administration and giving of the Holy Ghost to the believer lays within the numerous teachings of in full gospel circles.\Some people have come from main stream denominational churches into the pentecostal churches and have been instructed that they do not have the Holy Ghost because they haven't spoke in tongues. So these wonderful people seek and seek and nothing happens because they have been told they don't have it. The truth of the matter is this. There are some believers who came from a sinner's life style and had a true repetitive experience from the heart and at that time they asked Jesus to come into their heart[ soul] and in most cases He did. The problem is. When something like this happens in a church that don't teach the bible and the giving of the Holy Ghost in the proper contents of scripture then that person even though they could have and would have spoke in tongues at their repetitive experience didn't. Now they are caught up in this advise that they don't have it.
Jesus stated that He would baptise the believer with the Holy Ghost and fire. To be baptised with the spirit of God would be visually then same as being baptised with water. It would mean. To be covered completely or to be totally submerged. So if it is a spiritual baptism then it would mean to be completely over whelmed outwardly as well as inwardly.
This is the best analogy I can give to help understand this.
A person comes to the Lord Jesus and from the heart repents and by faith asks the Lord Jesus to come into his heart. { This would be like a man walking out into a lake of water up to his waist.} Now that the person is in the water what he needs to do is by faith and submission of will fall forward into the water and become totally covered by it.
Your cousin needs to get alone somewhere and involve him self with the Lord in praise and song, lift up his hands toward heaven and allow Jesus to take control of his total being, especially his mind and will. When his human portion of his will is out of the way the Holy Ghost will take over and he shall have that wonderful experience.

[Timmy]

:popcorn2

[Socialite]

The timing of a believer's salvation is predicated upon God's sovereign will, not the will of the believer in question. The timing when one is filled with the Holy Ghost is entirely up to God. All aspects of salvation are predicated upon God's will and grace... not man's effort and desire.

So if Holy Spirit baptism is a requisite for salvation, we now have salvation being given at a "certain time," like this carrot dangling in front of the new believer?

The fact is Christ already did the work and has invited us in by grace through faith. This notion that you just keep trying and eventually God will wake up and save you is bull....... oney.

[Socialite]

The Holy Ghost isn't a commandment, its a promise. If someone believe Acts 2:38 and does their part, God will do his. Sometimes it takes time, but to give up is to quit believing the promise is already theirs. Faith is about going on what isn't seen, not what is seen. I know its hard because what some preach from the pulpit, but if those would recognize the power of God's promises, and that they never fail; this would not be an issue with the desperate believe who wants to receive the Holy Ghost to be saved from hell. God will save them if they seek Christ Jesus. Its a promise. So if salvation is a promise and the HG is a promise, one can understand God will come through, no matter how long it takes them to "speak in tongues"

:blah

All the cute little tag lines we say, but when viewed in how they are practiced it is not so.

I also believe it's a promise. So what that means is, Spirit Baptism is something Jesus would love the Church to have for mission, and there's no use being anxious about it, saying Acts 2:38 is a command (but then qualifying the Holy Spirit part despite pleading people to "get saved" and come to the front and receive the Spirit)....

We say so many things to smooth this out, but it's like one of those shirts that come pre-packaged... some of those creases just aren't coming out.

[LUKE2447]

So if Holy Spirit baptism is a requisite for salvation, we now have salvation being given at a "certain time," like this carrot dangling in front of the new believer?

The fact is Christ already did the work and has invited us in by grace through faith. This notion that you just keep trying and eventually God will wake up and save you is bull....oney.

pretty much like your view.

[onefaith2]

Exactly. That doesn't make a bit of sense, does it? "Hey guys, it's December 25, let's open the gifts I promised you."








"You know guys.....I don't think you're ready for your gifts. Let's wait until Independence Day next year."

So when did you receive eternal life or your reward? On what day did you make it to heaven?

[Socialite]

pretty much like your view.

OH man, that was soooooooooooo good.

Knee slapper. :rooting

My view is bathed in scripture, the entirety of the Story, and is dependent on the cross. Yours is not much better than those self-mutilating Judaizers trying to qualify God's grace by all the extra "filthy rags" they can throw on. Yours has no focus on the cross, except an after-thought. Just talk in tongues... and now just keeping trying really hard and maybe when you die God won't throw you in hell.

I say, to hell with that false doctrine.

[onefaith2]

:blah

All the cute little tag lines we say, but when viewed in how they are practiced it is not so.

I also believe it's a promise. So what that means is, Spirit Baptism is something Jesus would love the Church to have for mission, and there's no use being anxious about it, saying Acts 2:38 is a command (but then qualifying the Holy Spirit part despite pleading people to "get saved" and come to the front and receive the Spirit)....

We say so many things to smooth this out, but it's like one of those shirts that come pre-packaged... some of those creases just aren't coming out.

Yep you apparently don't understand God's promises in the way I'm seeing them. He never fails on his end, NEVER. Tongues or not tongues yet, you are going to get everything you need to be ready to enter heaven, if you continue to trust in Him.

Sort of like the disciples saying, JEsus show us everything NOW.. Jesus says you are not able yet. Or the believer saying, I want all truth now, yet Jesus says the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.

Amazing what patience and trust in this book would actually do if apostolics would practice it in these situations.

[Socialite]

Yep you apparently don't understand God's promises in the way I'm seeing them. He never fails on his end, NEVER. Tongues or not tongues yet, you are going to get everything you need to be ready to enter heaven, if you continue to trust in Him.

Sort of like the disciples saying, JEsus show us everything NOW.. Jesus says you are not able yet. Or the believer saying, I want all truth now, yet Jesus says the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.

Amazing what patience and trust in this book would actually do if apostolics would practice it in these situations.

Amen to the bolded.

But in practice, and even in the fine print of Apo theology, this is not the case.

[Austin]

So if Holy Spirit baptism is a requisite for salvation, we now have salvation being given at a "certain time," like this carrot dangling in front of the new believer?

The fact is Christ already did the work and has invited us in by grace through faith. This notion that you just keep trying and eventually God will wake up and save you is bull....... oney.


That took courage!!:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

[onefaith2]

Amen to the bolded.

But in practice, and even in the fine print of Apo theology, this is not the case.

I believe in the hearts of many earnest believers, it is the case. But we as the church must speak for salvation as a whole, all of it, including justification and sanctification. Since the new birth has been mostly associated with justification, the idea of it being a process as well as an event has been lost somewhere, except in the pages and minds of the PCI and those who have earnestly followed their mindset after realization of this problem.

[Socialite]

That took courage!!:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

I'm sorry to offend... but I get weary of these Jesus + (FILL IN THE BLANK) teachings that offend the Cross. Tired of these wacky theological systems that are arrived at by experience, then eisgesis as the Text get's manipulated, molested and raped, stretched out so far it looks like the Prof. Clump trying on a tutu.

If people could just step back and listen to themselves sometimes. Are you sure we are believing the same Gospel?

"If any man preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed."

[onefaith2]

I'm sorry to offend... but I get weary of these Jesus + (FILL IN THE BLANK) teachings that offend the Cross. Tired of these wacky theological systems that are arrived at by experience, then eisgesis as the Text get's manipulated, molested and raped, stretched out so far it looks like the Prof. Clump trying on a tutu.

If people could just step back and listen to themselves sometimes. Are you sure we are believing the same Gospel?

"If any man preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed."

Apostolics don't preach Jesus +.. they preach acts 2:38 is the way to Jesus, the response to his gospel. Baptism is not in addition to Jesus, its putting into Jesus' death

The HG baptism is not an addition to Jesus, its experience Jesus' promise of empowerment.

[Socialite]

I believe in the hearts of many earnest believers, it is the case. But we as the church must speak for salvation as a whole, all of it, including justification and sanctification. Since the new birth has been mostly associated with justification, the idea of it being a process as well as an event has been lost somewhere, except in the pages and minds of the PCI and those who have earnestly followed their mindset after realization of this problem.

You are right. Everything is at the door of Justification, ironically the most powerful work of the Cross (us being made right before God). We've bottled everything else in our theology up on that doorstep too: discipleship, maturity, gifts of the Spirit, Spirit baptism, disciplines, etc.

It's always Hell or else... even if it isn't said so explicitly anymore. The culture speaks for itself.

[Socialite]

Apostolics don't preach Jesus +.. they preach acts 2:38 is the way to Jesus, the response to his gospel. Baptism is not in addition to Jesus, its putting into Jesus' death

The HG baptism is not an addition to Jesus, its experience Jesus' promise of empowerment.

That's just not true. He found His way to us. The Gospel is the work of Jesus past, present and in the future. We accept it the same way Abraham accepted it -- by believing.

Everything else is most certainly an addition if it's looked to as a way of salvation. Jesus Only. Where's the real Jesus Only folks.

[onefaith2]

You are right. Everything is at the door of Justification, ironically the most powerful work of the Cross (us being made right before God). We've bottled everything else in our theology up on that doorstep too: discipleship, maturity, gifts of the Spirit, Spirit baptism, disciplines, etc.

It's always Hell or else... even if it isn't said so explicitly anymore. The culture speaks for itself.

The idea is if one experiences all these things and is still lost, they must not have had everthing. The mindset is, He's still working on me and the goal is heaven. A person has to embrace OSAS to escape the fact that even saved from sin, a person can still be lost eternally if they so choose to be.

[onefaith2]

That's just not true. He found His way to us. The Gospel is the work of Jesus past, present and in the future. We accept it the same way Abraham accepted it -- by believing.

Everything else is most certainly an addition if it's looked to as a way of salvation. Jesus Only. Where's the real Jesus Only folks.

That is true, thats exactly what Peter told them to do. No amount of theology can get past the fact that acts 2:38 is the person's response that they believe the gospel. What Abraham did is embodied in that, when one believes Christ, they repent. Thats part of it!

Jesus said except ye repent, ye will perish. He Himself included this requirement.

[Socialite]

The idea is if one experiences all these things and is still lost, they must not have had everthing. The mindset is, He's still working on me and the goal is heaven. A person has to embrace OSAS to escape the fact that even saved from sin, a person can still be lost eternally if they so choose to be.

Is that really the goal? Really????

I mean the primary goal is to go to this cool place called Heaven? :)

[Austin]

I can tell you all right now. Salvation is by faith in the shed blood of Jesus and nothing else. If a person of any church is claiming to be a christian then they must have undergone a spiritual transformation or they are not like Christ and can't claim to be a christian. If someone is teaching that your are saved by keeping the commandments then PAUL SAID.Having begun in faith are you now made perfect by the law,? he then stated, I fear that you have fallen from grace[ Fell out of favor with God} In other words they are not in alignment with the mind and plan of God.
If someone is claiming to be saved it has to be in past tense. That is what faith is. Know you have something even though it has not appeared.Anything outside of that is confessing to being saved at some point in time. If that is the case of a believer then they are not saved at all. I wish people could understand the true doctrine of sanctification instead of misleading people into a hard yoke that they who teach it do even follow>

[onefaith2]

Is that really the goal? Really????

I mean the primary goal is to go to this cool place called Heaven? :)

Is that not your goal also? To live with Jesus forever in the New Jerusalem? Why else would you be living this way? If not to accept the gift of eternal life he is giving you?

[onefaith2]

I can tell you all right now. Salvation is by faith in the shed blood of Jesus and nothing else. If a person of any church is claiming to be a christian then they must have undergone a spiritual transformation or they are not like Christ and can't claim to be a christian. If someone is teaching that your are saved by keeping the commandments then PAUL SAID.Having begun in faith are you now made perfect by the law,? he then stated, I fear that you have fallen from grace[ Fell out of favor with God} In other words they are not in alignment with the mind and plan of God.
If someone is claiming to be saved it has to be in past tense. That is what faith is. Know you have something even though it has not appeared.Anything outside of that is confessing to being saved at some point in time. If that is the case of a believer then they are not saved at all. I wish people could understand the true doctrine of sanctification instead of misleading people into a hard yoke that they who teach it do even follow>

How does this transformation take place? Magically? At the moment you believe? When you are baptized? These questions are answered in the BIble, if we would read them.

[Timmy]

Best. Thread. Ever.

:lol

[Socialite]

That is true, thats exactly what Peter told them to do. No amount of theology can get past the fact that acts 2:38 is the person's response that they believe the gospel. What Abraham did is embodied in that, when one believes Christ, they repent. Thats part of it!

Jesus said except ye repent, ye will perish. He Himself included this requirement.

Believing/Repenting is almost inseparable. It's a heart turn toward God/Jesus.

Unless you turn to God, you will perish. Of course!!! We repent by believing in the work He did on the Cross, give up this quest at trying to save ourselves, live for ourselves, and rest solely in His promises.

I find it amazing that out of the entire New Testament, Apos find Acts 2:38 as their preeminent proof text. A narrative describing how the Church began, grew and flourished... and this is their proof text. A situation where people responded to a heavy indictment that they were responsible for the Messiah being rejected and put to death. They were commended to turn to God, to be baptized as disciples of Jesus and told them about the promised Holy Spirit. None of that is a formula to "get to God" -- even as you said, it's a response to what God has already done. This amazing God did all this, believe Him, and be baptized....

It takes MUCH theologizing to pull this out of the Bible against the backdrop of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and many other Pauline writings. It takes much to do that even in the context of the Gospels.

[Socialite]

Is that not your goal also? To live with Jesus forever in the New Jerusalem? Why else would you be living this way? If not to accept the gift of eternal life he is giving you?

I hope you reeeeeaaaaaalllly think about that statement you made.

Yes, I want to live forever with Jesus and reign with Him in New Jerusalem. But that wasn't the primary focus of my salvation.

[onefaith2]

Believing/Repenting is almost inseparable. It's a heart turn toward God/Jesus.

Unless you turn to God, you will perish. Of course!!! We repent by believing in the work He did on the Cross, give up this quest at trying to save ourselves, live for ourselves, and rest solely in His promises.

I find it amazing that out of the entire New Testament, Apos find Acts 2:38 as their preeminent proof text. A narrative describing how the Church began, grew and flourished... and this is their proof text. A situation where people responded to a heavy indictment that they were responsible for the Messiah being rejected and put to death. They were commended to turn to God, to be baptized as disciples of Jesus and told them about the promised Holy Spirit. None of that is a formula to "get to God" -- even as you said, it's a response to what God has already done. This amazing God did all this, believe Him, and be baptized....

It takes MUCH theologizing to pull this out of the Bible against the backdrop of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and many other Pauline writings. It takes much to do that even in the context of the Gospels.

Wha??? Do you not read Romans 6 (baptism is defined by how it affects us) or Romans 8(the Spirit's work in our life?)

Do you not read Galatians 3 where we put on Christ in baptism or Ephesians regarding the Holy SPirit being the earnest of our inheritance? No it doesn't take much at all. All it takes is a sincere person looking at what the early church did in regards to salvation. Historical or not, thats what they practiced and they believe one literally died with Christ in baptism or was quickened by the Spirit. The Bible backs up Acts 2:38 in its fullness. It just doesn't answer the questions of those who in between obeying it or obeying it in the way they were taught, etc.

[onefaith2]

I hope you reeeeeaaaaaalllly think about that statement you made.

Yes, I want to live forever with Jesus and reign with Him in New Jerusalem. But that wasn't the primary focus of my salvation.

Really and what is your primary focus of salvation. Better yet what IS the primary focus of salvation?

For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Bible is clear why God gave us salvation.

[Socialite]

Wha??? Do you not read Romans 6 (baptism is defined by how it affects us) or Romans 8(the Spirit's work in our life?)

Do you not read Galatians 3 where we put on Christ in baptism or Ephesians regarding the Holy SPirit being the earnest of our inheritance? No it doesn't take much at all. All it takes is a sincere person looking at what the early church did in regards to salvation. Historical or not, thats what they practiced and they believe one literally died with Christ in baptism or was quickened by the Spirit. The Bible backs up Acts 2:38 in its fullness. It just doesn't answer the questions of those who in between obeying it or obeying it in the way they were taught, etc.

I've read, studied and continue to read all those passages you've referenced.

Paul's word pictures, illustrations, articulations of what the rites of baptism are, etc are beautiful and meaningful. To interpret them literally ("baptism saves us") is irresponsible and doesn't even represent Paul's soteriology. Most of Paul's comments on baptism also aren't even about baptism, but about the believer's right living. We have new identities. We are new creatures, etc... To illustrate that point, he shows the picture of baptism.

That the Holy Spirit is the downpayment, that the Spirit of Christ must be in us is also, of course, accepted (great thread on that here called "Spirit and Salvation") --- but Apos have a tendency to see the word "Spirit" and immediately think of snotting, crying and tongues. Spirit-in-the-Box I call it.

The fact is, the Spirit draws us to Him, helps us believe, indwells us, equips us for mission, makes intercession for us, bears witness for us, gifts us, seals us, and one day will resurrect us. There are so many ways the Spirit is active in the believer's life.

[Timmy]

Why hasn't the thief on the cross been mentioned yet? Whenever someone points to him, someone else says "Oh, but that was under the old covenant!" In other words, yeah, the old covenant was easier than the new one.

:popcorn2

[onefaith2]

Best. Thread. Ever.

:lol

Lol what is sad is all the folks that believe the message aren't here defending it right now whereas I, who has a modified view, am.. :heeheehee

[Timmy]

Lol what is sad is all the folks that believe the message aren't here defending it right now whereas I, who has a modified view, am.. :heeheehee

:lol

[Socialite]

Really and what is your primary focus of salvation. Better yet what IS the primary focus of salvation?

For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Bible is clear why God gave us salvation.

Let's put it this way: Why did God elect Israel, separate them and call them to be His people?

(BTW, eternal life, rescue from death is different than "to spend forever in Heaven" -- I don't think your answer is wrong, I just don't think it's complete)

[Socialite]

Why hasn't the thief on the cross been mentioned yet? Whenever someone points to him, someone else says "Oh, but that was under the old covenant!" In other words, yeah, the old covenant was easier than the new one.

:popcorn2

Dispensationalism.

:vomit

[onefaith2]

I've read, studied and continue to read all those passages you've referenced.

Paul's word pictures, illustrations, articulations of what the rites of baptism are, etc are beautiful and meaningful. To interpret them literally ("baptism saves us") is irresponsible and doesn't even represent Paul's soteriology. Most of Paul's comments on baptism also aren't even about baptism, but about the believer's right living. We have new identities. We are new creatures, etc... To illustrate that point, he shows the picture of baptism.
That the Holy Spirit is the downpayment, that the Spirit of Christ must be in us is also, of course, accepted (great thread on that here called "Spirit and Salvation") --- but Apos have a tendency to see the word "Spirit" and immediately think of snotting, crying and tongues. Spirit-in-the-Box I call it.

The fact is, the Spirit draws us to Him, helps us believe, indwells us, equips us for mission, makes intercession for us, bears witness for us, gifts us, seals us, and one day will resurrect us. There are so many ways the Spirit is active in the believer's life.

Thats exactly what God has shown me. The Spirit is active is repentance, baptism, and the infilling. Acts 2:38 is as much the work of the Spirit as it is our response.


The italics above shows what Paul believed regarding what baptism does. It does put us into Christ's death, does help us die to our sin nature. Thats the dogma the institutional church has used for centuries until certain Protestant groups began questioning whether Romans 6 is allegorical or not or even if its talking about water baptism.

Because we are baptized and have faith, this is what Christ does for us, changes us, makes us new, etc. It isn't the rite of baptism itself, its the response to God's word that changes us. God selected baptism as a rite that we obey. Its that simple.

[Timmy]

Dispensationalism.

:vomit

Were sins forgiven through animal sacrifices, in OT times?

[onefaith2]

Let's put it this way: Why did God elect Israel, separate them and call them to be His people?

(BTW, eternal life, rescue from death is different than "to spend forever in Heaven" -- I don't think your answer is wrong, I just don't think it's complete)

Because of the response of Abraham, the Father of faith to believe the promises of God. That is why the convenant was formed. God desired a relationship with his creation that was broken by sin. Abraham was willing to believe God in a pagan land and accept his promises.

Then God and Abraham made an agreement, a covenant, that his people would be blessed and that they would follow God in all they do.


Eternal life is different to spending eternity with Jesus? Please do tell. I need to hear a different opinion about eternal life.

[Socialite]

Why did God save us?

1) He's faithful, generous, loving and pursuing (His Character)
2) To join him in His plan to bring redemption to the earth
3) To share his name among the nations
4) To free us from death, giving us eternal life -- redeeming us with His image, bought by his blood.
5) To honor the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross
6) To bring us back into fellowship with Him

“I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” John 12:46: “I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.”

“I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”

[onefaith2]

Why hasn't the thief on the cross been mentioned yet? Whenever someone points to him, someone else says "Oh, but that was under the old covenant!" In other words, yeah, the old covenant was easier than the new one.

:popcorn2

This argument is full of holes IMO. When did the thief have time to obey all the commandments? No he was born again, justified, accepted into the kingdom of God by the word of Christ. God knew he would be baptized, tarry for the SPirit, all the things one would do if he had the chance. thats obvious.

[Austin]

How does this transformation take place? Magically? At the moment you believe? When you are baptized? These questions are answered in the BIble, if we would read them.

I Peter 1' 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and adideth for ever. That takes place the moment that a sinner repents by faith under the power of the Holy Ghost drawing him. Jesus said;
John 6; 44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:39,And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
VERSE 39, And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Socialite]

Because of the response of Abraham, the Father of faith to believe the promises of God. That is why the convenant was formed. God desired a relationship with his creation that was broken by sin. Abraham was willing to believe God in a pagan land and accept his promises.

Then God and Abraham made an agreement, a covenant, that his people would be blessed and that they would follow God in all they do.


Eternal life is different to spending eternity with Jesus? Please do tell. I need to hear a different opinion about eternal life.

But Why did God choose Abraham? Is that given to us in the Story? (nodding)

When people say heaven, they are usually thinking of this special place, not relationship. Like, I'm living as a good boy so one day he will beam me up.

[onefaith2]

Why did God save us?

1) He's faithful, generous, loving and pursuing (His Character)
2) To join him in His plan to bring redemption to the earth
3) To share his name among the nations
4) To free us from death, giving us eternal life -- redeeming us with His image, bought by his blood.
5) To honor the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross
6) To bring us back into fellowship with Him

“I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” John 12:46: “I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.”

“I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”

All that leads to spending eternity with Him. That eternity begins when we convert. All of what you said are supporting to the main thing.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life

[onefaith2]

But Why did God choose Abraham? Is that given to us in the Story? (nodding)

When people say heaven, they are usually thinking of this special place, not relationship. Like, I'm living as a good boy so one day he will beam me up.

People's opinions do not change the ultimate goal for God and for us. Relationship is required to get there. God desires relationship with us, both here and there. That the goal of relationship is to lead us to the promised land.

[Socialite]

People's opinions do not change the ultimate goal for God and for us. Relationship is required to get there. God desires relationship with us, both here and there. That the goal of relationship is to lead us to the promised land.

Nice OT tie-in.

Where is the Promised Land. What is it? What is it like? What say ye? :)

[onefaith2]

I Peter 1' 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and adideth for ever. That takes place the moment that a sinner repents by faith under the power of the Holy Ghost drawing him. Jesus said;
John 6; 44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:39,And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
VERSE 39, And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Acts 2:38, Romans 6:1-7, Romans 8:9-11, John 3:16, John 3:17-21, etc.

I mean we could go on

1 John chapters 3, 4, 5

We have a whole book for a whole reason, to save us to the uttermost.

[Socialite]

Acts 2:38, Romans 6:1-7, Romans 8:9-11, John 3:16, John 3:17-21, etc.

I mean we could go on

1 John chapters 3, 4, 5

We have a whole book for a whole reason, to save us to the uttermost.

:hmmm

Before there was a book, they were saved to the innermost? What does this "uttermost" business mean?

Good scriptures. Careful not to present every scripture as an "add-on" to Grace when it need not be though.

[Austin]

If water has regenerative power for the cleansing of sin before the Holy Ghost can enter, ( And all of you know the Holy Ghost cannot enter an unclean vessel) then in the case of the 10th chapter of Acts there is a controversial issue concerning the administration of the Spirit to Cornelius.

[onefaith2]

Nice OT tie-in.

Where is the Promised Land. What is it? What is it like? What say ye? :)

The same place Abraham was looking for..


Hebrews 11


Faith enabled Abraham to become a father, even though he was old and Sarah had never been able to have children. Abraham trusted that God would keep his promise. 12Abraham was as good as dead. Yet, from this man came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the grains of sand on the seashore.

13All these people died having faith. They didn’t receive the things that God had promised them, but they saw these things coming in the distant future and rejoiced. They acknowledged that they were living as strangers with no permanent home on earth. 14Those who say such things make it clear that they are looking for their own country. 15If they had been thinking about the country that they had left, they could have found a way to go back. 16Instead, these men were longing for a better country—a heavenly country. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God. He has prepared a city for them.



Revelation 22


1I saw a new heaven and a new earth, because the first heaven and earth had disappeared, and the sea was gone. 2Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, dressed like a bride ready for her husband. 3I heard a loud voice from the throne say, “God lives with humans! God will make his home with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There won’t be any more death. There won’t be any grief, crying, or pain, because the first things have disappeared.”
5The one sitting on the throne said, “I am making everything new.”

[Timmy]

:hmmm

Before there was a book, they were saved to the innermost? What does this "uttermost" business mean?

Good scriptures. Careful not to present every scripture as an "add-on" to Grace when it need not be though.

See, there's saved, and then there's really saved. There is probably also really, really saved. Etc. :dunno

[onefaith2]

If water has regenerative power for the cleansing of sin before the Holy Ghost can enter, ( And all of you know the Holy Ghost cannot enter an unclean vessel) then in the case of the 10th chapter of Acts there is a controversial issue concerning the administration of the Spirit to Cornelius.

Thats why Peter said what he did in 1 Peter 3,

baptism is not washing the filth of the flesh, its the answer of a good conscience toward God

Paul taught when we died we are put into Christ's death. Baptism deals with the remission of sins, not the remission of your sins

Baptism deals with the sin nature, repentance deals with sins themselves.

[Socialite]

The same place Abraham was looking for..


Hebrews 11


Faith enabled Abraham to become a father, even though he was old and Sarah had never been able to have children. Abraham trusted that God would keep his promise. 12Abraham was as good as dead. Yet, from this man came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the grains of sand on the seashore.

13All these people died having faith. They didn’t receive the things that God had promised them, but they saw these things coming in the distant future and rejoiced. They acknowledged that they were living as strangers with no permanent home on earth. 14Those who say such things make it clear that they are looking for their own country. 15If they had been thinking about the country that they had left, they could have found a way to go back. 16Instead, these men were longing for a better country—a heavenly country. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God. He has prepared a city for them.



Revelation 22


1I saw a new heaven and a new earth, because the first heaven and earth had disappeared, and the sea was gone. 2Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, dressed like a bride ready for her husband. 3I heard a loud voice from the throne say, “God lives with humans! God will make his home with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There won’t be any more death. There won’t be any grief, crying, or pain, because the first things have disappeared.”
5The one sitting on the throne said, “I am making everything new.”

It's an interesting tension between our future Hope, and the Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven (now).

We are saved to share with the nations, to be part of that redemption that brings about a New Earth, the New Jerusalem coming down from God, us the Church, his visible Bride, his people today.

[onefaith2]

:hmmm

Before there was a book, they were saved to the innermost? What does this "uttermost" business mean?

Good scriptures. Careful not to present every scripture as an "add-on" to Grace when it need not be though.

haven't you ever heard of saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost? :heeheehee

[onefaith2]

It's an interesting tension between our future Hope, and the Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven (now).

We are saved to share with the nations, to be part of that redemption that brings about a New Earth, the New Jerusalem coming down from God, us the Church, his visible Bride, his people today.

Yes which means to share in the kingdom of heaven, eternal life, so that you and I don't hear, Depart from me, on that day of Judgement.

[Socialite]

Thats why Peter said what he did in 1 Peter 3,

baptism is not washing the filth of the flesh, its the answer of a good conscience toward God

Paul taught when we died we are put into Christ's death. Baptism deals with the remission of sins, not the remission of your sins

Baptism deals with the sin nature, repentance deals with sins themselves.

What does the Spirit do with sin nature? What role does Spirit get?

Sorry, OT, it just sounds so convoluted to me. It's an answer of good conscience toward God and also remission of sins (but not our own because repentance does that part of the saving)?

[Socialite]

haven't you ever heard of saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost? :heeheehee

Thank you, Carlton Pearson/Carmen Reunion :)

[Socialite]

Yes which means to share in the kingdom of heaven, eternal life, so that you and I don't hear, Depart from me, on that day of Judgement.

Huh?

[Socialite]

See, there's saved, and then there's really saved. There is probably also really, really saved. Etc. :dunno

At one time, the RCC had a system where you could pay ahead and be Super Duper Saved.

[onefaith2]

What does the Spirit do with sin nature? What role does Spirit get?

Sorry, OT, it just sounds so convoluted to me. It's an answer of good conscience toward God and also remission of sins (but not our own because repentance does that part of the saving)?

Romans 8:11 shows me what the Spirit does.

Think for a moment. We were born into a sin nature. Sin nature doesn't condemn us but the sin does. So in repentance the blood of Jesus forgives us of our sin. But we still are dominated by our sin nature. That is why Paul said, what shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized, were baptized into his death? Paul teaches us that conversion doesn't just deal with our sins, but baptism also deals with the sin nature (that the old man may be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin)

Do you follow me so far?

[onefaith2]

Huh?

Yes which means to share in the kingdom of heaven, eternal life, so that you and I don't hear, Depart from me, on that day of Judgement.


Share in the kingdom of heaven (lead others to Christ and declare his name and his righteousness)

Share in eternal life (receive a just reward on the merit of Christ to live with Him eternally)

You and I don't hear, Depart from me.

Matthew 7

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?’ 23Then I will tell them publicly, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.’

Build on the Rock—Luke 6:47–49
24“Therefore, everyone who hears what I say and obeys it will be like a wise person who built a house on rock.

You and I wouldn't want to be among these folk ;)

[Socialite]

So it's share the Gospel or perish?

[onefaith2]

So it's share the Gospel or perish?

Share in the gospel or perish.


However some believe if you don't reach out to win souls, you are lost because you are guilty of hiding your light, etc. I don't believe that but it could lead to that. We should not be ashamed of Jesus.

[Socialite]

Romans 8:11 shows me what the Spirit does.

Think for a moment. We were born into a sin nature. Sin nature doesn't condemn us but the sin does. So in repentance the blood of Jesus forgives us of our sin. But we still are dominated by our sin nature. That is why Paul said, what shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized, were baptized into his death? Paul teaches us that conversion doesn't just deal with our sins, but baptism also deals with the sin nature (that the old man may be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin)

Do you follow me so far?

Romans 8:11 So the Spirit is just so one day I can be resurrected? That's it? I think Pentecostal pneumatology is a little more robust than that :)

So if I no longer have a sin nature, it's completely gone away with because of baptism (I think you are stretching Paul's point that we should "be who we are"), then why do I still sin?

[Austin]

This subject matter is getting way out there from the scriptures. I'm out!

[Socialite]

Share in the gospel or perish.


However some believe if you don't reach out to win souls, you are lost because you are guilty of hiding your light, etc. I don't believe that but it could lead to that. We should not be ashamed of Jesus.

How do I share in the gospel?

To your latter point, that's definitely our mission. Once again, it's the ol' gun to the head, not trusting in what Christ has done for us and instead of gracious living that implicates others around us, it's go door knocking or perish.

And these "Soul Winners Inc" guys have a very narrow definition of "winning souls" (a Proverb which had more to do with winning friends by the way).

I'll stick with Jesus' admonishment to "Go make disciples."

[Socialite]

This subject matter is getting way out there from the scriptures. I'm out!

:winkgrin

[onefaith2]

Romans 8:11 So the Spirit is just so one day I can be resurrected? That's it? I think Pentecostal pneumatology is a little more robust than that :)

So if I no longer have a sin nature, it's completely gone away with because of baptism (I think you are stretching Paul's point that we should "be who we are"), then why do I still sin?

Romans 8:11 I don't believe that is just referring to the last day resurrection.. the whole context of his talk if walking after the SPirit.. The quickening mortal bodies comment I read refers to that process of empowering us to walk after the Spirit.

I didn't say you no longer have a sin nature, I said you are put into Christ' death, to help you overcome your sin nature (that the body of sin might be destroyed is what the text says). That doesn't mean you don't have the free will to take it up again, obey it in the lusts there, ect. Matter of fact if you don't choose to walk after the SPirit, you will fufill your lust. Just becase our sin nature is sanctified by the death of Christ, doesn't mean we no longer have it or can't walk in it.

Thats why you still sin and i still sin. We are not walking after the SPirit like we need to be doing.

Or we could go for the stronger terms like

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Truth is once we are born again, we need to walk after the Spirit to not sin.

[onefaith2]

How do I share in the gospel?

To your latter point, that's definitely our mission. Once again, it's the ol' gun to the head, not trusting in what Christ has done for us and instead of gracious living that implicates others around us, it's go door knocking or perish.

And these "Soul Winners Inc" guys have a very narrow definition of "winning souls" (a Proverb which had more to do with winning friends by the way).
I'll stick with Jesus' admonishment to "Go make disciples."

Like who? Tim Downs?

www.gowinsouls.com

or www.answeredhere.com

Or Denver Stanford

www.lifestyleevangelism.com

These two represent two different styles.

[onefaith2]

How do I share in the gospel?

."

You experience the change that the gospel brings.

[Mr. Smith]

I need to catch up but I'm thinking at this point, if I'm not able to speak in tongues, I'm gonna just opt for Plan B, go catch me a spotless bull on a farm out in the country, slash his throat, drain the blood, burn him up, take all the rest to a local preacher, and call it even. That way I can be right with God...to some extent anyway....so I won't have to beg Him for the Holy Ghost. This New Testament Grace thing just wasn't nearly as good as I heard.

[Austin]

I need to catch up but I'm thinking at this point, if I'm not able to speak in tongues, I'm gonna just opt for Plan B, go catch me a spotless bull on a farm out in the country, slash his throat, drain the blood, burn him up, take all the rest to a local preacher, and call it even. That way I can be right with God...to some extent anyway....so I won't have to beg Him for the Holy Ghost. This New Testament Grace thing just wasn't nearly as good as I heard.

Don't let the confusion on here discourage you. I think they got to debating and forgot you were the one looking for some answers. The salvation doctrine. Oldest debate on the face of the earth. We are saved by Grace/God's love and favor/ through faith/ that comes from Him too not us/ and not of works/ that means to can't earn it, or work for it if so then it becomes rightfully yours and it is given as a wage for effort and not a gift as God intended it to be for the simple fact no one in the Old testament could keep the law of commandments to be perfect. So today some actually think they can.
You follow Jesus and not man, be still and wait on Him. He has promised to do all things in his time...

[onefaith2]

Don't let the confusion on here discourage you. I think they got to debating and forgot you were the one looking for some answers. The salvation doctrine. Oldest debate on the face of the earth. We are saved by Grace/God's love and favor/ through faith/ that comes from Him too not us/ and not of works/ that means to can't earn it, or work for it if so then it becomes rightfully yours and it is given as a wage for effort and not a gift as God intended it to be for the simple fact no one in the Old testament could keep the law of commandments to be perfect. So today some actually think they can.
You follow Jesus and not man, be still and wait on Him. He has promised to do all things in his time...

He isn't looking for answers. Hei s discrediting the whole doctrine of baptism of the HG. Everything you said does not negate this experience nor thats it promised to all who believe.. nor what its for.

Typically folks don't start a thread saying its better for him to go kill an animal than to try and try for the HG, when they are looking for answers.

[Hoovie]

Sometimes it would in fact be much "easier" to sacrifice a goat. The grace of God has led many to pay the ultimate sacrifice.

[Praxeas]

To those of you who believe that one must 1) Repent; 2) Be baptized; and 3) Be filled with the Holy Spirit only by the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues.......


......it was easier to be right with God in the Old Testament when all you had to do was obey the Levitical law and drag animals to the Tabernacle to be sacrificed.

Why? Because there are some people who try and try and try and try and try and try and try, to "Get the Holy Ghost" and just never can speak in tongues. For those people, it would be easier to just kill a goat.


And to those of you who believe that a person is saved at repentance but that a person isn't filled with the Holy Spirit until they display the initial sign of speaking in tongues, it would be easier to just be one of the "Holy men of God" that spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, and just go kill goat.

Why? Because there are people that try and try and try and try and try and try and try, to be filled with the Spirit so they can have the power everyone else does, but they just can't pull it off.



According to these beliefs, maybe the New Covenant isn't all that great.
When I saw the title I thought this thread was about Rage Against the Machine

[Mr. Smith]

So if Holy Spirit baptism is a requisite for salvation, we now have salvation being given at a "certain time," like this carrot dangling in front of the new believer?

The fact is Christ already did the work and has invited us in by grace through faith. This notion that you just keep trying and eventually God will wake up and save you is bull....... oney.

1) First bold...GREAT point. 2) Second bold...Just as good a point (and the word you originally used was better).

[Mr. Smith]

I'm sorry to offend... but I get weary of these Jesus + (FILL IN THE BLANK) teachings that offend the Cross. Tired of these wacky theological systems that are arrived at by experience, then eisgesis as the Text get's manipulated, molested and raped, stretched out so far it looks like the Prof. Clump trying on a tutu.

If people could just step back and listen to themselves sometimes. Are you sure we are believing the same Gospel?

"If any man preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed."



I've quoted Pelathais on this a million times...."What is it about the cross that wasn't good enough?"

[Mr. Smith]

Apostolics don't preach Jesus +.. they preach acts 2:38 is the way to Jesus, the response to his gospel. Baptism is not in addition to Jesus, its putting into Jesus' death

The HG baptism is not an addition to Jesus, its experience Jesus' promise of empowerment.


Ok fine, you're gonna throw in the "Holy Ghost Baptism", what else would you like to throw in?

[Mr. Smith]

Is that not your goal also? To live with Jesus forever in the New Jerusalem? Why else would you be living this way? If not to accept the gift of eternal life he is giving you?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThaduxuGmWc

[Mr. Smith]

See, there's saved, and then there's really saved. There is probably also really, really saved. Etc. :dunno


In another thread, OneFaith2 said that there's salvation from sin and salvation from hell. I call it the, "Doctrine of Multiple Salvations."

[Socialite]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThaduxuGmWc

I have not heard that song in YEEEEAAAAAAAARRRRRRSSSS.

It's still as good as when I first heard it.

[mfblume]

I've quoted Pelathais on this a million times...."What is it about the cross that wasn't good enough?"

Yeah, why repent? Why pray? The cross is good enough, isn't it? Why believe? Why own a bible?

The point is that the cross provided everything we need to be saved. Anything we do can NEVER be considered salvation by that deed. There are things we need to do. But by the way you are talking about the cross in contrast to anything else you are implying, purposefully or not, that one need do nothing -- not even repent, pray... nada.

[Mr. Smith]

Yeah, why repent? Why pray? The cross is good enough, isn't it? Why believe? Why own a bible?

The point is that the cross provided everything we need to be saved. Anything we do can NEVER be considered salvation by that deed. There are things we need to do. But by the way you are talking about the cross in contrast to anything else you are implying, purposefully or not, that one need do nothing -- not even repent, pray... nada.


So were people "saved" in the Old Testament? Will they be in heaven with us? The major "selling point" of the New Testament is that it's much easier than the requirements of the Old Testament, correct? I mean, we've got all these laws, all these rules. But if one obeys them, if one follows the requirements, one is justified with God.

But here we have, now, the New Covenant which is much more accessible, much easier, much less difficult. But suddenly one runs into this insurmountable obstacle.....one is told one must speak in tongues! There's one group saying this is the initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost which mush be acquired in order to be saved, while another group will proclaim you "saved" without it, but continually tells you that you don't have all God has for you.

But, this person tries and tries and tries....to no avail. It just seems easier to go wrestle a bull, cut his throat, drain the blood, burn him, and head back home. It's dirty, ugly, gruesome work, but hey....at least it's achievable.:)

[mfblume]

So were people "saved" in the Old Testament? Will they be in heaven with us?

No and yes.

lol

They were not saved in their lifetimes in the OT because the cross of Jesus had not been provided for the transgressions under the law. Since the atonement of the cross, they are saved.

Hebrews 9:15 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The major "selling point" of the New Testament is that it's much easier than the requirements of the Old Testament, correct? I mean, we've got all these laws, all these rules. But if one obeys them, if one follows the requirements, one is justified with God.

But here we have, now, the New Covenant which is much more accessible, much easier, much less difficult. But suddenly one runs into this insurmountable obstacle.....one is told one must speak in tongues!

Again, we talked about this before, tongues are not something we have to do in order to get saved. It is something that HAPPENS ON ITS OWN when we receive the Holy Ghost. Why can't people get the concept that the CAUSE is not the EVIDENCE?

There's one group saying this is the initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost which mush be acquired in order to be saved, while another group will proclaim you "saved" without it, but continually tells you that you don't have all God has for you.

Whatever the case, it is not a matter of trying harder when people believe you are not saved without speaking in tongues. Trying harder does not get anyone the Spirit baptism with initial "evidence" (not cause) of speaking in tongues.

But, this person tries and tries and tries....to no avail.

That is the problem. TRYING!

It just seems easier to go wrestle a bull, cut his throat, drain the blood, burn him, and head back home. It's dirty, ugly, gruesome work, but hey....at least it's achievable.:)

Exactly. And that is why it is not a matter of TRYING and EFFORT. Tongues is EVIDENCE NOT CAUSE.

[Timmy]

Were sins forgiven through animal sacrifices, in OT times?

Bump.

[onefaith2]

In another thread, OneFaith2 said that there's salvation from sin and salvation from hell. I call it the, "Doctrine of Multiple Salvations."

Then you must beleive in OSAS.

Because if you are saved from hell when you are saved from sin, you can never lose your salvation. salvation from hell is the finality. If you cannot accept that then you need to reread Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10. Baptist doctrines are full of once you believe, you are saved and you can never be lost again.

[onefaith2]

Ok fine, you're gonna throw in the "Holy Ghost Baptism", what else would you like to throw in?

I didn't throw anything in. Peter did. Why don't you argue with him?


Repent and be baptized everyone of you (including you and me) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost.

Jesus also added baptism

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.


So Mr. Smith are we going to believe these gentlemen or not?

[onefaith2]

Yeah, why repent? Why pray? The cross is good enough, isn't it? Why believe? Why own a bible?

The point is that the cross provided everything we need to be saved. Anything we do can NEVER be considered salvation by that deed. There are things we need to do. But by the way you are talking about the cross in contrast to anything else you are implying, purposefully or not, that one need do nothing -- not even repent, pray... nada.

Yes if the cross is the saving element, not that which allows us to be saved, then there is no need to believe, repent, be baptized, or even go to church or hear preaching. THe cross already did everything to secure our salvation. Thats not Bible, the CROSS is the propitiation of sins that we might be saved through the gospel (which the cross is only part of)

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (the cross) that whosoever believeth in Him (something we do in addition to the cross) should not perish (didn't say will not or never can perish, SHOULD NOT) but have everlasting life.

The Cross enabled us to be saved, we still have to be born again and receive forgiveness of our sins if we are to be changed folks!

[Scott Hutchinson]

The baptism of The Holy Spirit is a gift of grace,and it is received by faith just like,forgiveness of sins is.

[Mr. Smith]

The baptism of The Holy Spirit is a gift of grace,and it is received by faith just like,forgiveness of sins is.


Fantastic, I'll take it. When do I get?

[Timmy]

Were sins forgiven through animal sacrifices, in OT times?

Bump.

Do I have to answer my own question? :lol

OK, the Bible says that animal sacrifices were for the forgiveness of sins, but several AFFers have said that sins were not forgiven -- they were "rolled forward" until Jesus paid the price for them. I've asked for Biblical support for that, but, as far as I can recall, never got any.

[Timmy]

Fantastic, I'll take it. When do I get?

I dunno, but whatever you do, don't try to get it. :heeheehee

[Mr. Smith]

No and yes.

lol

They were not saved in their lifetimes in the OT because the cross of Jesus had not been provided for the transgressions under the law. Since the atonement of the cross, they are saved.

••Which is my whole point. I think they had it easier.....easier than your version of grace, anyway.

Hebrews 9:15 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



Again, we talked about this before, tongues are not something we have to do in order to get saved. It is something that HAPPENS ON ITS OWN when we receive the Holy Ghost. Why can't people get the concept that the CAUSE is not the EVIDENCE?

••Wow, that sounds GREAT!!! So I don't have to do ANYTHING!!!! It'll just happen!! When should I expect it??

Whatever the case, it is not a matter of trying harder when people believe you are not saved without speaking in tongues. Trying harder does not get anyone the Spirit baptism with initial "evidence" (not cause) of speaking in tongues.



That is the problem. TRYING!

••Ok, I promise not to try. You have my word!

Exactly. And that is why it is not a matter of TRYING and EFFORT. Tongues is EVIDENCE NOT CAUSE.

••Ok, I understand loud and clear. I won't try, I won't do a darn thing. One day I'll be walking down the mall, minding my own business and BAM, it'll just happen. I can't wait.

[Mr. Smith]

Bump.


All of the bible scholars are ignoring your question, Timmy.:foottap

[Timmy]

All of the bible scholars are ignoring your question, Timmy.:foottap

I'm used to it. :heeheehee

[Mr. Smith]

I didn't throw anything in. Peter did. Why don't you argue with him?

••Did he really??!! He threw in, "You must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"?? Where's that?

Repent and be baptized everyone of you (including you and me) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost.

Jesus also added baptism

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.


So Mr. Smith are we going to believe these gentlemen or not?


••I totally believe in repentance and baptism and the promise of the infilling of the Holy Spirit!

[Mr. Smith]

I dunno, but whatever you do, don't try to get it. :heeheehee



I'm a little scared now, Timmy. I've seen people do some crazy stuff when they get hit with it. What if I'm driving my car going 75? No wait, that would be a sin, wouldn't it, so I couldn't get the Holy Ghost while I'm sinning. Ok, I'll slow down to the speed limit. Still, what if it hits me going 65? That could be dangerous. I don't know if I want this or not.

[onefaith2]

••I totally believe in repentance and baptism and the promise of the infilling of the Holy Spirit!

Well we agree. however if you believe its a promise and God never fails on his promises, then its easier to trust in his promises than to find an animal to sacrifice.

Since you agree that I'm not adding to the scripture, then we're set :)

[mfblume]

They were not saved in their lifetimes in the OT because the cross of Jesus had not been provided for the transgressions under the law. Since the atonement of the cross, they are saved.

••Which is my whole point. I think they had it easier.....easier than your version of grace, anyway.

I have not seen anything from your thoughts near what my version of grace is. All this emphasis on trying has nothing to do with my understanding of grace. In fact trying defeats grace and hinders what God has by grace!

Hebrews 9:15 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Again, we talked about this before, tongues are not something we have to do in order to get saved. It is something that HAPPENS ON ITS OWN when we receive the Holy Ghost. Why can't people get the concept that the CAUSE is not the EVIDENCE?

••Wow, that sounds GREAT!!! So I don't have to do ANYTHING!!!! It'll just happen!! When should I expect it??

Just ask and it comes!

Whatever the case, it is not a matter of trying harder when people believe you are not saved without speaking in tongues. Trying harder does not get anyone the Spirit baptism with initial "evidence" (not cause) of speaking in tongues.

That is the problem. TRYING!

••Ok, I promise not to try. You have my word!

Amen. Just ask!

Exactly. And that is why it is not a matter of TRYING and EFFORT. Tongues is EVIDENCE NOT CAUSE.
••Ok, I understand loud and clear. I won't try, I won't do a darn thing. One day I'll be walking down the mall, minding my own business and BAM, it'll just happen. I can't wait.
Ask ask ask. It's that easy!

[mfblume]

Were sins forgiven through animal sacrifices, in OT times?

Not in those times, no. Only after Christ actually made atonement were they forgiven.

[berkeley]

Smithy sounds exactly loike NOW.

[Timmy]

Not in those times, no. Only after Christ actually made atonement were they forgiven.

Leviticus 4:26
And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

[mfblume]

Leviticus 4:26
And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

Hebrews 9:12 KJV Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:15 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The forgiveness totally depended upon Christ's yet-future sacrifice, and was not truly imputed until Christ actually made it..

[Timmy]

Hebrews 9:12 KJV Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:15 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

You left out 13-14: "For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" The blood of bulls and goats etc did the job, but Christ's blood works even better. (Not sure in what sense it works better, but I suppose we could read between the lines and consider that it was a one-time sacrifice, vs repeated sacrifices. That's better, for sure!) And still, Lev says what it says. Don't tell me I've found a contradiction! :lol

[mfblume]

You left out 13-14:

"For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

The blood of bulls and goats etc did the job, but Christ's blood works even better. (Not sure in what sense it works better, but I suppose we could read between the lines and consider that it was a one-time sacrifice, vs repeated sacrifices. That's better, for sure!) And still, Lev says what it says. Don't tell me I've found a contradiction! :lol

If you really want a contradiction, God will let you assume one. lol

Hebrews 10:1-3 KJV For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (2) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. (3) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Hebrews 10:14 KJV For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Must read the entire treatise. Our very consciences are purged by the blood of Jesus, thus making us complete. The animal sacrifices could not perfect/complete the offerer. So, Christ's sacrifice covered the transgressions that were committed under the old covenant which animal sacrifices could not completely deal with. Therefore, no one was truly forgiven until Christ made atonement.

[mfblume]

Hebrews 10:14-18 KJV For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (15) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, (16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

[TGBTG]

You left out 13-14: "For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" The blood of bulls and goats etc did the job, but Christ's blood works even better. (Not sure in what sense it works better, but I suppose we could read between the lines and consider that it was a one-time sacrifice, vs repeated sacrifices. That's better, for sure!) And still, Lev says what it says. Don't tell me I've found a contradiction! :lol

Timmy, I don't think you have found a contradiction

Heb 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

[Timmy]

If you really want a contradiction, God will let you assume one. lol

Hebrews 10:1-3 KJV For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (2) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. (3) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Hebrews 10:14 KJV For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Must read the entire treatise. Our very consciences are purged by the blood of Jesus, thus making us complete. The animal sacrifices could not perfect/complete the offerer. So, Christ's sacrifice covered the transgressions that were committed under the old covenant which animal sacrifices could not completely deal with. Therefore, no one was truly forgiven until Christ made atonement.

OK. But making people perfect or complete wasn't the question. It was about forgiveness. It still looks to me like sins were "truly" forgiven via OT offerings (though I'm not sure the difference between "truly forgiven" and just "forgiven").

[Timmy]

Timmy, I don't think you have found a contradiction

Heb 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Would it be a contradiction if I found a scripture that said:

"Animal sacrifices forgave sins"

and another one that said

"Animal sacrifices did not forgive sins"?

[berkeley]

I know that people get upset when you say that sins were rolled forward, but that is exactly what it looks like. Timmy, maybe their sins were forgiven in the sense that God didn't hold them against the people, but were covered by the cross at the shedding of Christ's blood.

[mfblume]

OK. But making people perfect or complete wasn't the question. It was about forgiveness. It still looks to me like sins were "truly" forgiven via OT offerings (though I'm not sure the difference between "truly forgiven" and just "forgiven").

Look at it this way. If anything was forgiven before the cross, and the NT states the blood of Christ was required for remission of sins, then they were forgiven on the basis that the cross would occur. Hebrews says remission of sins causes sacrifices to cease to be offered as well as saying making people complete causes cessation. Remission of sins is the question, is it not? Hebrews 10 says where remission of sins is there is no more offering for sin.

[Mr. Smith]

Well we agree. however if you believe its a promise and God never fails on his promises, then its easier to trust in his promises than to find an animal to sacrifice.

Since you agree that I'm not adding to the scripture, then we're set :)


Well, I doubt it. Your demands of evidence are WAY different than mine. The main difference is, my theology can be backed up by scripture:heeheehee

[Mr. Smith]

I have not seen anything from your thoughts near what my version of grace is. All this emphasis on trying has nothing to do with my understanding of grace. In fact trying defeats grace and hinders what God has by grace!



Just ask and it comes!



Amen. Just ask!


Ask ask ask. It's that easy!



FANTASTIC!!! So when do I get it?

[Mr. Smith]

Smithy sounds exactly loike NOW.



He's a friend. We've had our differences, but we're friends.

[Mr. Smith]

Look at it this way. If anything was forgiven before the cross, and the NT states the blood of Christ was required for remission of sins, then they were forgiven on the basis that the cross would occur. Hebrews says remission of sins causes sacrifices to cease to be offered as well as saying making people complete causes cessation. Remission of sins is the question, is it not? Hebrews 10 says where remission of sins is there is no more offering for sin.



So OT sins were only forgiven because of what Christ would do in the future???? Can I add a few more question marks????????? So it was said in the Old Testament they were forgiven, but they weren't actually yet, but people thought they were?? This just gets confusinger and confusinger. Maybe this is where we need time-travel.

Timmy, I think a proper theologian (like myself) would see a difference between sins being "forgiven" and sins being "taken away".

[Austin]

:bbq

[mfblume]

So OT sins were only forgiven because of what Christ would do in the future???? Can I add a few more question marks????????? So it was said in the Old Testament they were forgiven, but they weren't actually yet, but people thought they were?? This just gets confusinger and confusinger. Maybe this is where we need time-travel.

Timmy, I think a proper theologian (like myself) would see a difference between sins being "forgiven" and sins being "taken away".

Are you trying to say there was no need for the cross for the OT saints?

[mfblume]

FANTASTIC!!! So when do I get it?

I already explained when. When you ask! Then see what Acts says about getting it, and compare.

[Timmy]

I already explained when. When you ask! Then see what Acts says about getting it, and compare.

And if you ask, and you don't get it, it's not a broken promise. Just like sins forgiven but not forgiven isn't a contradiction. :heeheehee

[Mr. Smith]

I already explained when. When you ask! Then see what Acts says about getting it, and compare.



I asked. Nothing's happened yet. How am I gonna know?

[Mr. Smith]

Are you trying to say there was no need for the cross for the OT saints?


I'm just asking you....when the people of the Old Testament were told their sins were forgiven, what did that mean to them?

[onefaith2]

Well, I doubt it. Your demands of evidence are WAY different than mine. The main difference is, my theology can be backed up by scripture:heeheehee

What scripture? The Book of Latter day saints?

I can show you tongues comes with the HG. Can you show me where someone gets the HG when they believe without any evidence to show they did, in the scripture?

In case you go to Acts 9, the scripture doesn't describe Paul getting the Holy Ghost, just his eyes opened ;)

Besides if you read some of the threads I engage in regarding salvation, you might not feel we are so different after all.

[mfblume]

I'm just asking you....when the people of the Old Testament were told their sins were forgiven, what did that mean to them?

I explained this using Hebrews.

[mfblume]

I asked. Nothing's happened yet. How am I gonna know?

If you ask and claim nothing happened - nothing at all... well, take it up with God. :D I thought you guys believed something does happen, whether it is what we claim happens or not.


Luk 11:13 KJV If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


Jas 4:3 KJV Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

[mfblume]

And if you ask, and you don't get it, it's not a broken promise. Just like sins forgiven but not forgiven isn't a contradiction. :heeheehee

Some people ask amiss. :) God knows the heart. It's between the person and God. He knows the thoughts and intents of the heart and if there is faith when we ask. Everyone must deal with Him, themselves. I will not judge. If you feel confident in your relationship with God and how you asked, then I leave you with Him.

[Timmy]

I'm just asking you....when the people of the Old Testament were told their sins were forgiven, what did that mean to them?

I explained this using Hebrews.

:blink