Graveyard Extinction?

[Charnock]

This thought came to me yesterday, quite out of the blue. I have no hard evidence to support it. It's more of a premonition.

I do not know if I will see this occur in my lifetime, but I do believe that traditional burials will become a thing of the past. I believe that the U.S. government, at some point in the next 50 years, will mandate cremation.

As we plunge deeper into secular humanism, and far, far away from anything to do with Christianity, the burgeoning hatred for all things religious will pick up steam. God has been removed from schools and public places, and the next battleground will be to squelch the use of religious emblems - even in cemeteries. Christian burials will be viewed as selfish, and an irresponsible use of space. Picketing will occur at funerals by "green" advocates. Mass desecration of cemeteries will take place.

I also believe that this nation will utilize something akin to eminent domain to destroy entire cemeteries, in order to develop the last vestige of open space in urban areas.

Now, go ahead and call me crazy. :foottap

[jfrog]

This thought came to me yesterday, quite out of the blue. I have no hard evidence to support it. It's more of a premonition.

I do not know if I will see this occur in my lifetime, but I do believe that traditional burials will become a thing of the past. I believe that the U.S. government, at some point in the next 50 years, will mandate cremation.

As we plunge deeper into secular humanism, and far, far away from anything to do with Christianity, the burgeoning hatred for all things religious will pick up steam. God has been removed from schools and public places, and the next battleground will be to squelch the use of religious emblems - even in cemeteries. Christian burials will be viewed as selfish, and an irresponsible use of space. Picketing will occur at funerals by "green" advocates. Mass desecration of cemeteries will take place.

I also believe that this nation will utilize something akin to eminent domain to destroy entire cemeteries, in order to develop the last vestige of open space in urban areas.

Now, go ahead and call me crazy. :foottap

You're crazy. But cremation will more than likely become the norm eventually. At some point its just going to be too expensive to bury people compared with cremation which is already much cheaper.

[Digging4Truth]

My wife and I have agreed on cremation. It's just ridiculous how much funerals cost. We were able to get my FIL cremated for less than $500.

But... to your subject. I have had a similar thought but my reasoning is different.

I have often wondered... How long can we let every human being occupy a 6'-8' piece of real estate forever until we run out of land for the living? I mean... it just doesn't calculate in the long run. This cannot be sustained.

[jfrog]

My wife and I have agreed on cremation. It's just ridiculous how much funerals cost. We were able to get my FIL cremated for less than $500.

But... to your subject. I have had a similar thought but my reasoning is different.

I have often wondered... How long can we let every human being occupy a 6'-8' piece of real estate forever until we run out of land for the living? I mean... it just doesn't calculate in the long run. This cannot be sustained.

You should do a viking burial... It'll be like cremation but cooler and on the water!

[Digging4Truth]

You should do a viking burial... It'll be like cremation but cooler and on the water!

Yeah... prolly not. :)

[drummerboy_dave]

Who can know if that will happen, but one thing is for sure, if and when anything is mandated by the government, the cost will rise exponentially!

[Digging4Truth]

Who can know if that will happen, but one thing is for sure, if and when anything is mandated by the government, the cost will rise exponentially!

Yep. And it will be the cremation lobbyist who are behind it. :)

[onefaith2]

You know what is amazing.. for all of us who believe in a literal resurrection of the body.. all those ashes will come back together...

[Digging4Truth]

You know what is amazing.. for all of us who believe in a literal resurrection of the body.. all those ashes will come back together...

Indeed.

The same way dust will for those who have turned to dust.

[Hoovie]

My wife and I have agreed on cremation. It's just ridiculous how much funerals cost. We were able to get my FIL cremated for less than $500.

But... to your subject. I have had a similar thought but my reasoning is different.

I have often wondered... How long can we let every human being occupy a 6'-8' piece of real estate forever until we run out of land for the living? I mean... it just doesn't calculate in the long run. This cannot be sustained.

I bet it would take many thousands of years...

[Digging4Truth]

I bet it would take many thousands of years...

But it would seem that it would eventually happen. And when it happened... where do you go from there? What do we do with all of these 3-1/2' x 10' plots of ground that we have deemed unusable for all of eternity?

At the rate of 35 sq ft of ground per soul multiplied by 2,500,000 people who die in the US each year divided by the 43560 sq ft that are in an acre. That means that to bury each person who dies in the use would use up 2000 acres per year. 20,000 acres of land lost per decade. In my lifetime nearly 95,000 acres might have been lost to burial plots.

This would take a long time before burial plot usage actually becomes a logistical problem. But I think we could agree that, should we continue our current view on burial, this will eventually be an actual problem that we have to deal with.

But... we'll leave that for future generations to deal with I suppose. :)

[Hoovie]

I dont think its pressing. In about ten thousand years we can review this. Lol!

[Digging4Truth]

I dont think its pressing. In about ten thousand years we can review this. Lol!

Are you always a last minute kinda guy? :)

:happydance:thumbsup:happydance

Oh... and I forgot to mention... those numbers count only burial plot size... there's probably about as much land given to between plot space... roads etc in the average cemetery.

[Azzan]

I bet it would take many thousands of years...

It's already happening. Somewhere I read that European cemetaries are reselling plots after a number of years. I couldn't find what I was looking for but there are tons of articles out there discussing this subject. One such article:

http://www.economist.com/node/5635992

Anyone ever been to New Orleans? Since the water table is so high there, they bury above ground. They have these huge communal vaults where they store the bones of the deceased in special bags once the body has decomposed. Our tour guide showed us one such vault and told us that there thousands of individuals stored in it.

[Socialite]

I don't ever see that mandated in the US. If anything, the price of burial ground will rise exponentially first. Combined burial areas will become popular, etc...

I guess it doesn't matter what happens with my body when I die, but the idea of a proper, Western burial is appealing to me.

[Hoovie]

It's already happening. Somewhere I read that European cemetaries are reselling plots after a number of years. I couldn't find what I was looking for but there are tons of articles out there discussing this subject. One such article:

http://www.economist.com/node/5635992

Anyone ever been to New Orleans? Since the water table is so high there, they bury above ground. They have these huge communal vaults where they store the bones of the deceased in special bags once the body has decomposed. Our tour guide showed us one such vault and told us that there thousands of individuals stored in it.

What is happening? The problem in NO isn't the US running out of land to bury folks. The problem would be people actually wanting to live below sea level.

I bet not even 1/10 of one percent of the land in the US is designated for cemeteries.

Digging up old cemeteries in Europe is a choice they make, in spite of the fact there are millions of uninhabited acres unoccupied.

[NotforSale]

IMO, Cremation is just another form of escaping reality. When we remove the dead from our presence, the reality of where we will all end up goes from the open casket to an Urn.

We do this with many other forms of death, including War, buying meat in the store, and putting the elderly in rest homes. We don't want death to be close to us, and the nice steak under pretty lights feeds the illusion of "Out of Sight, Out of Mind".

You will notice that the grieving process is much different when the dead body is in view at a Funeral. Going to the Graveside is also a special experience, and I’ve officiated Funerals where the deceased are buried while everyone is watching.

[Digging4Truth]

There's also other things to consider.

1. All of those numbers I have given are about to be obsolete as the baby boomers will begin passing soon.
2. Every year due to standard burial procedures we put into the ground...
A. 827,000 gallons of embalming fluid.
B. 90,000 tons of steel that goes into caskets
C. 30,000,000 board feet of hardwood lumber
D. 1.5 million tons of reinforced concrete

And... as I have mentioned... those numbers are pre-baby boomer stats.

I'm not trying to push my thoughts on anybody else. These are just things that I think about and I don't plan on adding to these numbers when I'm gone.

[Hoovie]

IMO, Cremation is just another form of escaping reality. When we remove the dead from our presence, the reality of where we will all end up goes from the open casket to an Urn.

We do this with many other forms of death, including War, buying meat in the store, and putting the elderly in rest homes. We don't want death to be close to us, and the nice steak under pretty lights feeds the illusion of "Out of Sight, Out of Mind".

You will notice that the grieving process is much different when the dead body is in view at a Funeral. Going to the Graveside is also a special experience, and I’ve officiated Funerals where the deceased are buried while everyone is watching.

We do that at Mennonite funerals. Pine box. Hand dug grave. Family assists in adding dirt if they wish.

[Hoovie]

There's also other things to consider.

1. All of those numbers I have given are about to be obsolete as the baby boomers will begin passing soon.
2. Every year due to standard burial procedures we put into the ground...
A. 827,000 gallons of embalming fluid.
B. 90,000 tons of steel that goes into caskets
C. 30,000,000 board feet of hardwood lumber
D. 1.5 million tons of reinforced concrete

And... as I have mentioned... those numbers are pre-baby boomer stats.

I'm not trying to push my thoughts on anybody else. These are just things that I think about and I don't plan on adding to these numbers when I'm gone.

All these things are optional in the state of MO. Biodegradable softwood is fine.

[Azzan]

What is happening? The problem in NO isn't the US running out of land to bury folks. The problem would be people actually wanting to live below sea level.

I bet not even 1/10 of one percent of the land in the US is designated for cemeteries.

Digging up old cemeteries in Europe is a choice they make, in spite of the fact there are millions of uninhabited acres unoccupied.

Actually the problem does exist in the USA but it's not a problem everywhere. Another article I skimmed while trying to find the one I wanted which tells about Hartford, CT: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/09/25/nyregion/space-for-the-dead-gets-scarce.html.

The executive director of Catholic Cemeteries for the Archdiocese of Hartford, Richard Meagher, agreed. ''Land that's desirable for cemeteries is not available, period,'' he said. ''There's still large tracts of wetlands and expanses of ledge, but most of the good land has been picked up by developers.''
At the 100-acre St. Lawrence Cemetery in New Haven, double-depth burials are already a common practice, said the cemetery manager, Thomas V. McCarthy.

I was offering NO as an example of what could happen someday elsewhere because of the shortage of land in some locations.

[Digging4Truth]

Actually the problem does exist in the USA but it's not a problem everywhere. Another article I skimmed while trying to find the one I wanted which tells about Hartford, CT: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/09/25/nyregion/space-for-the-dead-gets-scarce.html.




I was offering NO as an example of what could happen someday elsewhere because of the shortage of land in some locations.

Right.

And this would tend to be a problem in metro areas long, long before it is an issue in rural areas.

[Hoovie]

Actually the problem does exist in the USA but it's not a problem everywhere. Another article I skimmed while trying to find the one I wanted which tells about Hartford, CT: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/09/25/nyregion/space-for-the-dead-gets-scarce.html.




I was offering NO as an example of what could happen someday elsewhere because of the shortage of land in some locations.

Oh I understand there may be a shortage of available plots in existing cemeteries... That does not mean we are out of land mass in the USA. The vast majority of land mass in the US is uninhabited, much less taken up by cemetery plots. That was/is the point I made. Percentage-wise it's next to nothing.

Do an aerial map search for 50 miles surrounding Hartford CT. One could find hundreds of thousands of acres for sale no doubt. One farm could likely sustain the cemetery needs in Hartford for the next hundred years.

[Jason B]

I dont think its pressing. In about ten thousand years we can review this. Lol!

I'm planning on being alive 10,000 years from now.

"When we've been there 10,000 years....."

One of the best lines ever written. :)

[Jason B]

You know what is amazing.. for all of us who believe in a literal resurrection of the body.. all those ashes will come back together...

Indeed, and why should we be suprised that God would raise the dead, or bring man back from the ashes, after all, hasnt He already done these things? (Gen 2:7, Acts 26:8)

[Hoovie]

I'm planning on being alive 10,000 years from now.

"When we've been there 10,000 years....."

One of the best lines ever written. :)

Zactly. I'll venture to say we will have also discovered a whole lot of new terra for "burial". :)

[Jason B]

Zactly. I'll venture to say we will have also discovered a whole lot of new terra for "burial". :)

Well, unless the full preterists are right,but I don't see that being a problem. And if the full preterists are right, mankind would probably destroy himself by then.

[pelathais]

This thought came to me yesterday, quite out of the blue. I have no hard evidence to support it. It's more of a premonition.

I do not know if I will see this occur in my lifetime, but I do believe that traditional burials will become a thing of the past. I believe that the U.S. government, at some point in the next 50 years, will mandate cremation.

As we plunge deeper into secular humanism, and far, far away from anything to do with Christianity, the burgeoning hatred for all things religious will pick up steam. God has been removed from schools and public places, and the next battleground will be to squelch the use of religious emblems - even in cemeteries. Christian burials will be viewed as selfish, and an irresponsible use of space. Picketing will occur at funerals by "green" advocates. Mass desecration of cemeteries will take place.

I also believe that this nation will utilize something akin to eminent domain to destroy entire cemeteries, in order to develop the last vestige of open space in urban areas.

Now, go ahead and call me crazy. :foottap

I've called you "crazy" so many times before that it should just be taken for granted. :crazy :blah

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif On the other hand though, you're probably right at least about several aspects of this. And, I don't think it necessarily has to do with an "anti-religion" program, though there will probably always some element of that present.

In antiquity, people were buried in caves and other nooks to protect their remains from scavengers. In time, the population grew up around agricultural settlements and it simply wasn't feasible to journey to the places where the "old ones" were buried, so new "caves" (tombs) were carved out of nearby rock outcroppings.

In time, even this practice became quite crowded, so the idea of the ossuary developed. These were stone or wooden chests (and even old jars) into which the collected bones of the departed were deposited. The way it worked was, a corpse was laid out on a "bench" in a tomb and the tomb was sealed. The remains of the departed were allowed to decay naturally. By the time another family member had passed away, the tomb was opened, the bones of the last one to die were collected from the bench and put into an ossuary and the newly deceased loved one was laid upon the bench to experience the same natural decay.

This was a means of "recycling" the space in the tomb. I guess the ancients were sort of "green" themselves.

[pelathais]

Burying the dead in the ground was a common practice in Northern Europe and across Asia. The whole "tomb thing" was a practice of the Mediterranean and desert areas. In America, we have a huge industry centered around combining the most extensive aspects of BOTH cultures.

We "mummify" our dead to preserve as much of their flesh as we can. We then bury them in steel or wooden sarcophagi (caskets) and then, entomb all of that within a pre-cast reinforced concrete crypt. To bury all 6.775 BILLION people who are currently alive on the planet right now in the same sorts of "tombs" would require a huge world-wide effort and would forever scar much of the arable land surface of the planet. We would need a whole 'nother planet altogether if we were to do this for successive generations.

In other words, what we are doing right now simply isn't sustainable.

[pelathais]

You know what is amazing.. for all of us who believe in a literal resurrection of the body.. all those ashes will come back together...

Indeed.

The same way dust will for those who have turned to dust.

What about the following scenario?

... the "dust" into which my own body will decay is comprised of billions of mostly carbon based molecules. Those molecules were accumulated within my system over the course of my life time and were attained mostly from the food I ate, the water and juices I drank and the air I breathed.

Now... given the fact that something like 80% of all household dust is comprised of the dead skin cells of its inhabitants, and given the fact that I breathe this dust and ... gross! ... have probably even ingested some of it while either working out, cleaning or following the "5 second rule" for the potato chip that gets dropped on the carpet - who's body will I be in the resurrection?

Apply this same question to a repentant cannibal who had eaten the first several missionaries who had preached to him before believing the Gospel preached by the final missionary... only he ate that missionary too and wasn't saved until he was finally able to watch the missionary societies' videos.

[pelathais]

What is happening? The problem in NO isn't the US running out of land to bury folks. The problem would be people actually wanting to live below sea level.

I bet not even 1/10 of one percent of the land in the US is designated for cemeteries.

Digging up old cemeteries in Europe is a choice they make, in spite of the fact there are millions of uninhabited acres unoccupied.

In the movie, The Poltergeist, a family moves into a new subdivision that has been built right on top of an old cemetery. The dead people come out through the television and take one of the kids away to some weird ethereal "in between" place where it takes a bunch of high paid psychics to get her back.

And YOU say that's NOT A PROBLEM? :foottap

[Hoovie]

Burying the dead in the ground was a common practice in Northern Europe and across Asia. The whole "tomb thing" was a practice of the Mediterranean and desert areas. In America, we have a huge industry centered around combining the most extensive aspects of BOTH cultures.

We "mummify" our dead to preserve as much of their flesh as we can. We then bury them in steel or wooden sarcophagi (caskets) and then, entomb all of that within a pre-cast reinforced concrete crypt. To bury all 6.775 BILLION people who are currently alive on the planet right now in the same sorts of "tombs" would require a huge world-wide effort and would forever scar much of the arable land surface of the planet. We would need a whole 'nother planet altogether if we were to do this for successive generations.

In other words, what we are doing right now simply isn't sustainable.

Sustainable? Do most of those 6.775 Billion people alive today even practice burial today? I wonder what the area would actually be? I imagine about the size of several counties. I know where there is a lot of desert land not being used for anything.

[Hoovie]

In the movie, The Poltergeist, a family moves into a new subdivision that has been built right on top of an old cemetery. The dead people come out through the television and take one of the kids away to some weird ethereal "in between" place where it takes a bunch of high paid psychics to get her back.

And YOU say that's NOT A PROBLEM? :foottap

You are right. That would change everything.

[Charnock]

What about the following scenario?

... the "dust" into which my own body will decay is comprised of billions of mostly carbon based molecules. Those molecules were accumulated within my system over the course of my life time and were attained mostly from the food I ate, the water and juices I drank and the air I breathed.

Now... given the fact that something like 80% of all household dust is comprised of the dead skin cells of its inhabitants, and given the fact that I breathe this dust and ... gross! ... have probably even ingested some of it while either working out, cleaning or following the "5 second rule" for the potato chip that gets dropped on the carpet - who's body will I be in the resurrection?

Apply this same question to a repentant cannibal who had eaten the first several missionaries who had preached to him before believing the Gospel preached by the final missionary... only he ate that missionary too and wasn't saved until he was finally able to watch the missionary societies' videos.

I've thought about this before, but I don't have the ability to express it like you do.

Looking at your post I am left to wonder at the words of Jesus "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but...."

Is resurrection about separating sanctified earth (dirt) from non-sanctified earth? Will the flesh (earth, remains etc.) of the unregenerate be burned with this earth, or will it be resurrected for judgment, and then thrown into the lake of fire?

[Charnock]

By the way, the last ten years has proved that barbarians will stop at nothing to get attention, and "win."

Not too long ago they flew planes into buildings, and used the passengers as human bullets. It's not hard to imagine them doing horrible things with the bodies of our dead.

[Hoovie]

By the way, the last ten years has proved that barbarians will stop at nothing to get attention, and "win."

Not too long ago they flew planes into buildings, and used using the passengers as human bullets. It's not hard to imagine them doing horrible things with the bodies of our dead.

...testing my pacifism they are...:foottap

[Digging4Truth]

What about the following scenario?

... the "dust" into which my own body will decay is comprised of billions of mostly carbon based molecules. Those molecules were accumulated within my system over the course of my life time and were attained mostly from the food I ate, the water and juices I drank and the air I breathed.

Now... given the fact that something like 80% of all household dust is comprised of the dead skin cells of its inhabitants, and given the fact that I breathe this dust and ... gross! ... have probably even ingested some of it while either working out, cleaning or following the "5 second rule" for the potato chip that gets dropped on the carpet - who's body will I be in the resurrection?

Apply this same question to a repentant cannibal who had eaten the first several missionaries who had preached to him before believing the Gospel preached by the final missionary... only he ate that missionary too and wasn't saved until he was finally able to watch the missionary societies' videos.

And there is also the case of mass graves where hundreds of bodies have all become the same dust pile...

An old song comes to mind. "God's got it all in control" :)

[pelathais]

Sustainable? Do most of those 6.775 Billion people alive today even practice burial today? I wonder what the area would actually be? I imagine about the size of several counties. I know where there is a lot of desert land not being used for anything.

The thing that concerns me about the "death industry" are the concrete crypts and the steel boxes that go into the ground. Everything else can be "recycled" naturally. Who are we trying to kid with our hubris?

I know that this can be a touchy issue, especially soon after a family has lost a loved one. I've told my kids that I want to be buried without being embalmed and to simply slide my shrouded body beneath the roots of a sturdy tree.

Life is the most enduring monument. Even after the tree has died, its offspring will remain.

And, the idea of using some desert areas is good, too. With climate change upon us (it's always "upon us" - duh!) the addition of rich organics to desert soils may cause currently bleak areas to blossom when the rains and winds change. Just leave out the chemicals. Ingesting chemicals while we were alive is what probably helped to kill most of us anyway.

[pelathais]

Well, RandyWayne has suddenly crossed my mind...

"Life is the most enduring monument while the biosphere endues." How's that?

The proton will be the most enduring monument if the universe is fated for a "heat death." Then, a quantum vacuum fluctuation will be the thing that will get you the "Biggest Bang" for your buck.

[Hoovie]

Pely, you are up and posting at four AM?? Raiding the fridge or did she kick you out of bed?? :)

[pelathais]

Pely, you are up and posting at four AM?? Raiding the fridge or did she kick you out of bed?? :)

LOL. No, I gotta keep the schedule set by whoever wants to pay me... and I'm open to offers. :)

Getting back to a more "regular" schedule this week.

[Charnock]

This thread crossed my mind today as I was listening to coverage of 9-11 events.

[bbyrd009]

Ah; I missed the first go-round,
read the first page, and skipped
back to here to see if the fact
that cultures have been desecrating
graves on demand for like, ever?
has come out yet.

[AreYouReady?]

The thing that concerns me about the "death industry" are the concrete crypts and the steel boxes that go into the ground. Everything else can be "recycled" naturally. Who are we trying to kid with our hubris?

I know that this can be a touchy issue, especially soon after a family has lost a loved one. I've told my kids that I want to be buried without being embalmed and to simply slide my shrouded body beneath the roots of a sturdy tree.

Life is the most enduring monument. Even after the tree has died, its offspring will remain.

And, the idea of using some desert areas is good, too. With climate change upon us (it's always "upon us" - duh!) the addition of rich organics to desert soils may cause currently bleak areas to blossom when the rains and winds change. Just leave out the chemicals. Ingesting chemicals while we were alive is what probably helped to kill most of us anyway.

I had these same thoughts as I was reading through the thread.

In some states, concrete or steel vaults are mandatory.

Me? Since embalming is not mandatory here, don't bother with it. I've instructed my family to put me in a pine box if they felt that they could not cremate me and not to spend outrageous amounts of money burying me. I want them to use any money for the living, for their needs.

A couple of weeks ago, one old pillar of the community died in the night. She was in her 90s. There was no visitation and she was buried the next morning with only family by her graveside. It is what she wanted. I think I like that idea.

I just want the doctors to make sure I am totally dead. I've heard lots of "mistaken death" stories in all my years working at the hospital. :)

[Charnock]

Heading there.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Heading there.

Would you like to explain?

[Esaias]

Burying the dead in the ground was a common practice in Northern Europe and across Asia. The whole "tomb thing" was a practice of the Mediterranean and desert areas. In America, we have a huge industry centered around combining the most extensive aspects of BOTH cultures.

We "mummify" our dead to preserve as much of their flesh as we can. We then bury them in steel or wooden sarcophagi (caskets) and then, entomb all of that within a pre-cast reinforced concrete crypt. To bury all 6.775 BILLION people who are currently alive on the planet right now in the same sorts of "tombs" would require a huge world-wide effort and would forever scar much of the arable land surface of the planet. We would need a whole 'nother planet altogether if we were to do this for successive generations.

In other words, what we are doing right now simply isn't sustainable.

At the previously stated rate of 35 sq ft per body, it would take 5,443,641 acres to bury 6,775,000,000 people. Assuming burial land requires twice as much space for roads, walkways, and fencing etc as for actual burial space, that means it would take 16,330,923 acres total for a total cemetary space to bury all 6.775 billion humans.

There are 167,624,960 acres in Texas alone. That means a cemetary big enough to bury every single living human being would take up less than 10% of the land mass of Texas. The country of Sierra Leone would be large enough with room for expansion. Ireland also. The country of Georgia would be just about right.

So, no, it would definitely NOT "scar much of the arable land" nor would we need a whole nother planet.

We just need Sierra Leone.

[johnny44]

Heading there.Where is Palathais realy miss his posting?