Does scripture always lead to right doctrine?

[onefaith2]

Many preach that if you read the Bible in its context, you will leave with truth.

However there seems to be not the case for some beliefs. Take the Trinity for instance. How many people, if never read about the Trinity and just read the Bible, would come away with Trinitarian concepts?

Lets view salvation for a moment

So those that preach acts 2:38,

In all the conversions of the Book of Acts, acts 8, acts 10, and acts 19 follow the pattern to the T. However in other conversion, not only is receiving the Holy Ghost not mentioned, but even baptism is sometimes not mentioned. So you have a quarem here. If you read one passage of scripture, it has definite distinguishment, while another don't.

So if someone died between the three steps, is one believes all are necessary, that person goes to hell by default. Not because the Scripture says they go to hell but because we have no other alternative. If John 3:5 is equal to baptism and the HG (evidenced by tongues) you have no other solution than to say, they were lost. On the other hand, you have groups of believers who read scriptures like Romans 10:9 or Acts 16:31 and sincerely believe them to the point that baptism isn't necessary and the HG isn't given anymore like in Acts.

Or for eschatology claims,

When the scripture says this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, one would simply believe he was talking about that particular generation, as has the preterists. Yet in order to believe that, one must conclude that all the imagery in Revelation actually doesn't mean things like the sun going out or moon turning to blood or mountains being removed, etc actually happen.

Or even better.. when the scripture says all will be saved, yet we read of these burning in hell for eternity. When does all mean all?

So in essence my question is, does scripture always lead to right doctrine and why are we forced to embrace doctrines which the scriptures do not state, such as Trinity or Predestination on God's will only or John 3:5 has to be equal to Acts 2:38 or birth of water is natural birth?

None of these are explicitly stated in the scriptures yet they are the doctrines which divide us mostly.

[mfblume]

Faith is necessary and the leading of the Spirit as well. As we grow in the Lord, we will find we come to the unity of the faith, or agreement in doctrine. God will correct us.

[Timmy]

Faith is necessary and the leading of the Spirit as well. As we grow in the Lord, we will find we come to the unity of the faith, or agreement in doctrine. God will correct us.

Uh huh.

:heeheehee

[mfblume]

Uh huh.

:heeheehee

My only disclaimer is that those who do not want to believe the bible will find that reflect on what God does with them. ;)

[Timmy]

My only disclaimer is that those who do not want to believe the bible will find that reflect on what God does with them. ;)

Had God taught you the truth yet?

[berkeley]

IDK. Everything is subjective and filtered through our biases.

[mfblume]

Had God taught you the truth yet?

Not all truth, no. I am still learning.

[Timmy]

Not all truth, no. I am still learning.

Some truth, then? Which truth has God taught you? Which truth are you waiting for? Will you know when you get it?

[Cindy]

There is only one right doctrine. So, yes it does.

[Scott Hutchinson]

If one rightly divides the word and is lead by The Holy Ghost,The Holy Ghost will lead them into truth.For The Holy Ghost does not lead into error.

[LUKE2447]

If one rightly divides the word and is lead by The Holy Ghost,The Holy Ghost will lead them into truth.For The Holy Ghost does not lead into error.

Whole lot of contrary doctrine and people beng led by the Spirit.
hucka pucka :rolleyes:

[mfblume]

Whole lot of contrary doctrine and people beng led by the Spirit.
hucka pucka :rolleyes:

There are so many variables involved as to how a person is able to be led by God that we can never go by a person's claim. So it is every man for himself in this issue. All we can do is forget the needle-in-a-haystack perception of standing and gazing at the masses who claim they follow God, and be as honest as we possibly can -- even praying or God to hep us be so -- and realize THERE IS A GOD AND HE ANSWERS PRAYER.

People who count heads in order to determine truth are actually using an excuse for their lack of desire to WANT to know God.

[Timmy]

There are so many variables involved as to how a person is able to be led by God that we can never go by a person's claim. So it is every man for himself in this issue. All we can do is forget the needle-in-a-haystack perception of standing and gazing at the masses who claim they follow God, and be as honest as we possibly can -- even praying or God to hep us be so -- and realize THERE IS A GOD AND HE ANSWERS PRAYER.

People who count heads in order to determine truth are actually using an excuse for their lack of desire to WANT to know God.

Hey, you really are getting closer to the truth! :heeheehee

[mfblume]

Hey, you really are getting closer to the truth! :heeheehee

I am in a quandary as to what is funny about my words. :)

[Timmy]

I am in a quandary as to what is funny about my words. :)

It's just that you have said some of the very things I have said, apparently without realizing just how true they are! And apparently without realizing you have contradicted yourself in that very post!

I'll expound later, since I'm sure you will not see it as I see it. Sorry for the drive-by posting, but no time now. ;)

[mfblume]

It's just that you have said some of the very things I have said, apparently without realizing just how true they are! And apparently without realizing you have contradicted yourself in that very post!

I'll expound later, since I'm sure you will not see it as I see it. Sorry for the drive-by posting, but no time now. ;)
I see no contradiction or I obviously would not have written what I said. :) I sometimes struggle with putting my thoughts into words, though. That may be the reason for your thoughts.

[Timmy]

I see no contradiction or I obviously would not have written what I said. :) I sometimes struggle with putting my thoughts into words, though. That may be the reason for your thoughts.

OK, it wasn't exactly a contradiction. More like confirmation of a point you made, perhaps without realizing the full importance of the point. Let me explain. You said:

There are so many variables involved as to how a person is able to be led by God that we can never go by a person's claim.

That is so true! Furthermore, in determining whether someone was truly led by God in any particular matter, we can never go by, well, anything! Can we go by the Bible? Not reliably, since the Bible can be and has been used to validate pretty much anything -- such is its flexibility.

By the way, that flexibility is directly related to how any purported contradiction in the Bible can be (and has been) explained away. How? Like this: consider a scripture X. Look it over carefully. Try to understand what it says. Now, if we stop there, we might be content to think we really do understand what X's intended meaning was when it was written. But! Along comes scripture Y! At first blush, it seems that Y contradicts X. But we all know that can't happen ;). So we look for a way to reconcile X and Y. And that is always possible, if we try. But it may require that we revisit and revise our understanding of X! We must have been wrong about X, if we can't resolve this apparent contradiction and stick to our original interpretation. But if it had not been for Y, we would not and could not have known that. We would have had no reason to think we were wrong, even though we were!

So, if we come to another scripture, Z, which has no apparently contradicting scriptures, what can we conclude? Can we say, after working out an understanding of what Z means, that we must be correct? I wouldn't say no. From what we learned through our experience with X and Y, how could we possibly say, with certainty, that we really understand Z? Or any scripture? We were unwittingly wrong about X until we saw Y. We might be wrong about Z, but we will never know it. Thus, we can not really be sure about our understanding of Z. In fact, someone else's interpretation of Z (or of X or Y) is very likely to be different from our own.

Now, back to your post. It is often said that an honest seeker of truth will find it. You have said that a number of times, as I recall, or words to that effect. But now, here you are, saying "it is every man for himself in this issue"! Each of us decides on what God is trying to teach us. And, not surprisingly, God teaches different people different things -- even contradictory things. So you are right, that we can't go by people's claims. In fact, we cannot even go by our own claims! To say otherwise leads to the awkward, implicit claim that we alone are truly honest, and anyone who claims God gave them a different meaning is not honest.

Then you say we must "be as honest as we possibly can -- even praying or God to hep us be so -- and realize THERE IS A GOD AND HE ANSWERS PRAYER." Well, I agree that we should honest with ourselves, and it probably won't hurt to pray. But why should we realize there is a God and He answers prayer? That is just an example of some people's claim, and there are others who claim otherwise. If you start with that conclusion, are you really being honest in your search for truth?

The state of Christianity that we have today is consistent with a reality where God does not actually and literally teach anything to anyone. Note that I didn't say He doesn't. I said what we have is consistent with that. It is also possible that God does teach some people some things. But who? We don't know who is right. We cannot know.

[Digging4Truth]

Some truth, then? Which truth has God taught you? Which truth are you waiting for? Will you know when you get it?

To repeat an old post...

You're just being Timmy now... and that doesn't help anything.

:highfive

[Timmy]

To repeat an old post...

You're just being Timmy now... and that doesn't help anything.

:highfive
:laffatu

[mfblume]

OK, it wasn't exactly a contradiction. More like confirmation of a point you made, perhaps without realizing the full importance of the point. Let me explain. You said:

There are so many variables involved as to how a person is able to be led by God that we can never go by a person's claim.

That is so true! Furthermore, in determining whether someone was truly led by God in any particular matter, we can never go by, well, anything! Can we go by the Bible? Not reliably, since the Bible can be and has been used to validate pretty much anything -- such is its flexibility.

But misuse of the bible does not invalidate the bible itself as a reliable source.

By the way, that flexibility is directly related to how any purported contradiction in the Bible can be (and has been) explained away. How? Like this: consider a scripture X. Look it over carefully. Try to understand what it says. Now, if we stop there, we might be content to think we really do understand what X's intended meaning was when it was written. But! Along comes scripture Y! At first blush, it seems that Y contradicts X. But we all know that can't happen ;). So we look for a way to reconcile X and Y. And that is always possible, if we try. But it may require that we revisit and revise our understanding of X! We must have been wrong about X, if we can't resolve this apparent contradiction and stick to our original interpretation. But if it had not been for Y, we would not and could not have known that. We would have had no reason to think we were wrong, even though we were!

And so we correct ourselves. The interpretation that sees x and y and z as no contradictions is the correct one.

So, if we come to another scripture, Z, which has no apparently contradicting scriptures, what can we conclude? Can we say, after working out an understanding of what Z means, that we must be correct? I wouldn't say no. From what we learned through our experience with X and Y, how could we possibly say, with certainty, that we really understand Z?

We take our interpretation that offers no apparent contradiction and stand on it in faith awaiting and being open for God to correct us by ways by which He can choose to do so, whether using others or inspiring a thought, etc.

Or any scripture? We were unwittingly wrong about X until we saw Y. We might be wrong about Z, but we will never know it. Thus, we can not really be sure about our understanding of Z. In fact, someone else's interpretation of Z (or of X or Y) is very likely to be different from our own.

Now, back to your post. It is often said that an honest seeker of truth will find it. You have said that a number of times, as I recall, or words to that effect. But now, here you are, saying "it is every man for himself in this issue"!
What I meant by that was to not concern yourself over others, but over your own self and understanding. I did not imply we cannot know. Each one on our own must settlle for what we each honestly think is truth.

Each of us decides on what God is trying to teach us. And, not surprisingly, God teaches different people different things -- even contradictory things.

No, people claim God each them things, and amongst all our varying views, one may be correct, or none. But the point is that God has one true intention for a passage's understanding. And we have to seek it.

So you are right, that we can't go by people's claims. In fact, we cannot even go by our own claims! To say otherwise leads to the awkward, implicit claim that we alone are truly honest, and anyone who claims God gave them a different meaning is not honest.

I agree with that.

Then you say we must "be as honest as we possibly can -- even praying or God to hep us be so -- and realize THERE IS A GOD AND HE ANSWERS PRAYER." Well, I agree that we should honest with ourselves, and it probably won't hurt to pray. But why should we realize there is a God and He answers prayer? That is just an example of some people's claim, and there are others who claim otherwise.

Without that basis concept of God, there would be no use to knowing anything about the bible.

If you start with that conclusion, are you really being honest in your search for truth?

The state of Christianity that we have today is consistent with a reality where God does not actually and literally teach anything to anyone. I disagree. That is a conclusion derived from the very thing I said we cannot do. We cannot stand back and survey the masses who claim to be led by God and make a conclusion based upon that.

Note that I didn't say He doesn't. I said what we have is consistent with that. It is also possible that God does teach some people some things. But who? We don't know who is right. We cannot know.

We can know, since God is real, and He will lead.

[onefaith2]

What Timmy has given is a very Deist view of the Bible. Take the Jefferson Bible for instance, take out all you don't understand and leave in the good parts of Jesus' teaching and words because it will apply to society.

While this is definitely a meritable opinion, God cannot be understood on the sole basis on intellect and therefore lies the problem with the Deists. They will never figure it out so they default to doubting anything that doesn't sound plausible. (which is a problem for men anyway 1 Timothy 2:8)

If we could just have faith and intellect, things might get done. :) Sometimes though because faith and intellect seem to collide, we face the problems that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin faced when dealing with the Christian religion and its dogma. I think thats why the Bible says

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

[Timmy]

What Timmy has given is a very Deist view of the Bible. Take the Jefferson Bible for instance, take out all you don't understand and leave in the good parts of Jesus' teaching and words because it will apply to society.

While this is definitely a meritable opinion, God cannot be understood on the sole basis on intellect and therefore lies the problem with the Deists. They will never figure it out so they default to doubting anything that doesn't sound plausible. (which is a problem for men anyway 1 Timothy 2:8)

If we could just have faith and intellect, things might get done. :) Sometimes though because faith and intellect seem to collide, we face the problems that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin faced when dealing with the Christian religion and its dogma. I think thats why the Bible says

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Yeah, no wonder Jefferson and Franklin never got anything done! :toofunny

[Timmy]

But misuse of the bible does not invalidate the bible itself as a reliable source.



And so we correct ourselves. The interpretation that sees x and y and z as no contradictions is the correct one.



We take our interpretation that offers no apparent contradiction and stand on it in faith awaiting and being open for God to correct us by ways by which He can choose to do so, whether using others or inspiring a thought, etc.


What I meant by that was to not concern yourself over others, but over your own self and understanding. I did not imply we cannot know. Each one on our own must settlle for what we each honestly think is truth.



No, people claim God each them things, and amongst all our varying views, one may be correct, or none. But the point is that God has one true intention for a passage's understanding. And we have to seek it.



I agree with that.



Without that basis concept of God, there would be no use to knowing anything about the bible.

I disagree. That is a conclusion derived from the very thing I said we cannot do. We cannot stand back and survey the masses who claim to be led by God and make a conclusion based upon that.


Well, it seems that some of my points were lost. I should be used that by now! :toofunny

[onefaith2]

Yeah, no wonder Jefferson and Franklin never got anything done! :toofunny

God uses people in spite of their problems :happydance

Besides I guess Isaac Newton spent too much time pondering Christianity or C.S. Lewis was too indoctrinated to get anything done? Actually Deists got a lead to some of their views from Isaac Newton lol. Tolkien, he probably didn't get much done other than create a world with parallels to CHristianity lol.

;) WE are glad you still love us Timmy!

[jfrog]

OK, it wasn't exactly a contradiction. More like confirmation of a point you made, perhaps without realizing the full importance of the point. Let me explain. You said:

There are so many variables involved as to how a person is able to be led by God that we can never go by a person's claim.

That is so true! Furthermore, in determining whether someone was truly led by God in any particular matter, we can never go by, well, anything! Can we go by the Bible? Not reliably, since the Bible can be and has been used to validate pretty much anything -- such is its flexibility.

By the way, that flexibility is directly related to how any purported contradiction in the Bible can be (and has been) explained away. How? Like this: consider a scripture X. Look it over carefully. Try to understand what it says. Now, if we stop there, we might be content to think we really do understand what X's intended meaning was when it was written. But! Along comes scripture Y! At first blush, it seems that Y contradicts X. But we all know that can't happen ;). So we look for a way to reconcile X and Y. And that is always possible, if we try. But it may require that we revisit and revise our understanding of X! We must have been wrong about X, if we can't resolve this apparent contradiction and stick to our original interpretation. But if it had not been for Y, we would not and could not have known that. We would have had no reason to think we were wrong, even though we were!

So, if we come to another scripture, Z, which has no apparently contradicting scriptures, what can we conclude? Can we say, after working out an understanding of what Z means, that we must be correct? I wouldn't say no. From what we learned through our experience with X and Y, how could we possibly say, with certainty, that we really understand Z? Or any scripture? We were unwittingly wrong about X until we saw Y. We might be wrong about Z, but we will never know it. Thus, we can not really be sure about our understanding of Z. In fact, someone else's interpretation of Z (or of X or Y) is very likely to be different from our own.

Now, back to your post. It is often said that an honest seeker of truth will find it. You have said that a number of times, as I recall, or words to that effect. But now, here you are, saying "it is every man for himself in this issue"! Each of us decides on what God is trying to teach us. And, not surprisingly, God teaches different people different things -- even contradictory things. So you are right, that we can't go by people's claims. In fact, we cannot even go by our own claims! To say otherwise leads to the awkward, implicit claim that we alone are truly honest, and anyone who claims God gave them a different meaning is not honest.

Then you say we must "be as honest as we possibly can -- even praying or God to hep us be so -- and realize THERE IS A GOD AND HE ANSWERS PRAYER." Well, I agree that we should honest with ourselves, and it probably won't hurt to pray. But why should we realize there is a God and He answers prayer? That is just an example of some people's claim, and there are others who claim otherwise. If you start with that conclusion, are you really being honest in your search for truth?

The state of Christianity that we have today is consistent with a reality where God does not actually and literally teach anything to anyone. Note that I didn't say He doesn't. I said what we have is consistent with that. It is also possible that God does teach some people some things. But who? We don't know who is right. We cannot know.

Well explained Timmy (particularly the first 3 paragraphs)! :thumbsup

[Timmy]

Well explained Timmy (particularly the first 3 paragraphs)! :thumbsup

Just noticed a dumb typo. And I had it right at first, then edited it wrong! Ugh.

I wouldn't say no.

Should be:

I wouldn't say so.
Sigh.

[Timmy]

God uses people in spite of their problems :happydance

Besides I guess Isaac Newton spent too much time pondering Christianity or C.S. Lewis was too indoctrinated to get anything done? Actually Deists got a lead to some of their views from Isaac Newton lol. Tolkien, he probably didn't get much done other than create a world with parallels to CHristianity lol.

;) WE are glad you still love us Timmy!

:highfive