View Full Version : Former Apostolic Ministers Allegedly Murder Woman.
Ev. Duane Williams
03-31-2011, 10:33 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-ohio-mother-summer-inman-found-dead-church/story?id=13255848
I personally know all of these people, including poor Summer herself, God rest her soul. I was there when this father and son were ordained. I even know Brother King Kelly, the Pastor of the Church where they hid the body. Please pray for Summer's family as well as Bill Inman's mother, who is a woman of God and a dear friend of mine who can't wrap her mind around what her son has done.
RandyWayne
03-31-2011, 10:43 PM
Wow. This divorce must have been nasty to get so many people involved in the murder (unless they were all a little nutz to begin with).
Ev. Duane Williams
03-31-2011, 10:47 PM
For those who don't wish to follow the link, Summer Inman, a 25 year old mother of three, was kidnapped tuesday night 3/22/11, in Logan, Ohio by her estranged husband and his parents(the father and son both being Apostolic ministers whom I know very well), and killed a short time later, her body being discovered in an Apostolic Church septic tank a week later, after the husband's mother cracked and told police where she was. That's it in a nutshell. There are many more details.
Ev. Duane Williams
03-31-2011, 10:48 PM
Wow. This divorce must have been nasty to get so many people involved in the murder (unless they were all a little nutz to begin with).
Dingdingdingding, what do we have for Randy, Bob?
Jason B
03-31-2011, 11:03 PM
That is absoultely horrifying. What a terrible tragedy. "Apostolic ministers", what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing. tongues speakers can be just a svile as the world. We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues. BTW I'm not trying to hijack this thread with the initial evidence doctrine, but my point is people like this, literally murderers can minister in "apostolic" churches largely because apostolics have such a tendancy to equate that with redemption, and it has nothing to do with redemption, and because of that, now great shame is upon the church, and much worse and unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way.
Socialite
03-31-2011, 11:17 PM
absolutely shocking.
berkeley
03-31-2011, 11:18 PM
Really, Jason?
Cindy
03-31-2011, 11:32 PM
That is absoultely horrifying. What a terrible tragedy. "Apostolic ministers", what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing. tongues speakers can be just a svile as the world. We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues. BTW I'm not trying to hijack this thread with the initial evidence doctrine, but my point is people like this, literally murderers can minister in "apostolic" churches largely because apostolics have such a tendancy to equate that with redemption, and it has nothing to do with redemption, and because of that, now great shame is upon the church, and much worse and unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way.
What?
MissBrattified
03-31-2011, 11:37 PM
That is absoultely horrifying. What a terrible tragedy. "Apostolic ministers", what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing. tongues speakers can be just a svile as the world. We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues. BTW I'm not trying to hijack this thread with the initial evidence doctrine, but my point is people like this, literally murderers can minister in "apostolic" churches largely because apostolics have such a tendancy to equate that with redemption, and it has nothing to do with redemption, and because of that, now great shame is upon the church, and much worse and unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way.
Um, what on earth? You're trying to connect the dots between a horrific murder and the "initial evidence doctrine?" :blink
Try again. :foottap
Ev. Duane Williams
03-31-2011, 11:58 PM
Please don't forget the "Please Pray For Her Family" part, especially her parents, two good God fearing people, and her three children, the oldest of whom is only 5. This sort of thing doesn't happen here in Southeast Ohio, and this whole ordeal has rocked the little community where I grew up as well as the entire region.
missourimary
04-01-2011, 12:06 AM
That is absoultely horrifying. What a terrible tragedy. "Apostolic ministers", what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life...
I'm still trying to figure out if they are Apostolic as most of us would define Apostolic, much less three step or one step. Were they still ordained by any denomination or recognized as ministers by any Apostolic group? Were any of them attending an Apostolic church regularly? (From the articles I'm reading, they may not have been.)
missourimary
04-01-2011, 12:07 AM
Please don't forget the "Please Pray For Her Family" part, especially her parents, two good God fearing people, and her three children, the oldest of whom is only 5. This sort of thing doesn't happen here in Southeast Ohio, and this whole ordeal has rocked the little community where I grew up as well as the entire region.
:thumbsup
aegsm76
04-01-2011, 12:21 AM
That is absoultely horrifying. What a terrible tragedy. "Apostolic ministers", what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing. tongues speakers can be just a svile as the world. We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues. BTW I'm not trying to hijack this thread with the initial evidence doctrine, but my point is people like this, literally murderers can minister in "apostolic" churches largely because apostolics have such a tendancy to equate that with redemption, and it has nothing to do with redemption, and because of that, now great shame is upon the church, and much worse and unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way.
JB - this post is beneath you.
Ev. Duane Williams
04-01-2011, 12:29 AM
I'm still trying to figure out if they are Apostolic as most of us would define Apostolic, much less three step or one step. Were they still ordained by any denomination or recognized as ministers by any Apostolic group? Were any of them attending an Apostolic church regularly? (From the articles I'm reading, they may not have been.)
They were ordained in 2008. I was present at the ordination service. Whether they still held ordination at the time, I can't say. There was nothing from fellowshipping with them that would ever lead me to believe they could do something like this. The elder would say some things behind the pulpit that would make you scratch your head sometimes, and the younger I have to admit seemed a little strange, but never in my wildest nightmares did I ever think they were capable of something so horrible.
Michael The Disciple
04-01-2011, 12:59 AM
That is absoultely horrifying. What a terrible tragedy. "Apostolic ministers", what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing. tongues speakers can be just a svile as the world. We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues. BTW I'm not trying to hijack this thread with the initial evidence doctrine, but my point is people like this, literally murderers can minister in "apostolic" churches largely because apostolics have such a tendancy to equate that with redemption, and it has nothing to do with redemption, and because of that, now great shame is upon the church, and much worse and unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way.
Since evidently you despise the three step doctrine simply dis associate yourself from it and we who believe the doctrine will have to bear the reproach.
Notwithstanding we could probably find many articles on the net describing heinous acts committed by "believe only" ministers.
Praxeas
04-01-2011, 01:39 AM
Jason that is asinine. What these people did had nothing to do with doctrine. People of all doctrinal flavors have gone bad and done bad things
berkeley
04-01-2011, 01:53 AM
Since evidently you despise the three step doctrine simply dis associate yourself from it and we who believe the doctrine will have to bear the reproach.
Notwithstanding we could probably find many articles on the net describing heinous acts committed by "believe only" ministers.
Or prisons full of men who "accepted" the Lord in Sunday School.
berkeley
04-01-2011, 01:55 AM
I'll pray for the woman's family and the community. This is beyond describable in words.
Truthseeker
04-01-2011, 04:30 AM
Jason that is asinine. What these people did had nothing to do with doctrine. People of all doctrinal flavors have gone bad and done bad things
True!
Falla39
04-01-2011, 06:10 AM
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Aquila
04-01-2011, 06:39 AM
That is absoultely horrifying. What a terrible tragedy. "Apostolic ministers", what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing. tongues speakers can be just a svile as the world. We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues. BTW I'm not trying to hijack this thread with the initial evidence doctrine, but my point is people like this, literally murderers can minister in "apostolic" churches largely because apostolics have such a tendancy to equate that with redemption, and it has nothing to do with redemption, and because of that, now great shame is upon the church, and much worse and unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way.
I want to speak in Jason's defense.
I don't think Jason's point was to use this to slam the 3 step doctrine. Jason's point is, 3 step or not, one needs a REAL relationship with Jesus Christ. That doesn't come by spiritual giftings, sacraments, dress codes, etc. What every believer NEEDS is a real, living, and breathing relationship with Jesus. If these people could do such a thing... we should beware, all of us are capable of untold evil. Our "religion" isn't want changes us... only Jesus. Only a deep and loving relationship with Jesus can save the human soul and keep us from such sin.
I don't think anyone, 3 step or not, would disagree with this.
In the mean time, let's keep this family and community in prayer.
Monterrey
04-01-2011, 07:15 AM
Whats the big deal?
Just another work of the flesh.
Carnal Apostolics, Pentecostals, UPCI, WPF, ALJC, independents, ACI murder each other all the time. They murder the characters, reputations, and good names of each other and anybody that they don't like or believes different from them.
It is just a small step from the tongue to the real act.
Digging4Truth
04-01-2011, 07:24 AM
Such is the heart of man.
Such is the basis for our need of a Savior.
Theophil
04-01-2011, 09:14 AM
Please don't forget the "Please Pray For Her Family" part, especially her parents, two good God fearing people, and her three children, the oldest of whom is only 5. This sort of thing doesn't happen here in Southeast Ohio, and this whole ordeal has rocked the little community where I grew up as well as the entire region.
Apparently this is exactly where it happens.
Hoovie
04-01-2011, 09:34 AM
That is absoultely horrifying. What a terrible tragedy. "Apostolic ministers", what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing. tongues speakers can be just a svile as the world. We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues. BTW I'm not trying to hijack this thread with the initial evidence doctrine, but my point is people like this, literally murderers can minister in "apostolic" churches largely because apostolics have such a tendancy to equate that with redemption, and it has nothing to do with redemption, and because of that, now great shame is upon the church, and much worse and unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way.
How ridiculous is this? Christians who are tongue speakers fight the same battles, and fall in similar ways at times. That is not the fault of "tongues", but rather our fallen nature and ADAM.
I personally know of a few non tongue speakers who cut their family into pieces. So what?
Ev. Duane Williams
04-01-2011, 09:37 AM
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
And the world tells us "Just follow your heart".
Hoovie
04-01-2011, 09:39 AM
I want to speak in Jason's defense.
I don't think Jason's point was to use this to slam the 3 step doctrine. Jason's point is, 3 step or not, one needs a REAL relationship with Jesus Christ. That doesn't come by spiritual giftings, sacraments, dress codes, etc. What every believer NEEDS is a real, living, and breathing relationship with Jesus. If these people could do such a thing... we should beware, all of us are capable of untold evil. Our "religion" isn't want changes us... only Jesus. Only a deep and loving relationship with Jesus can save the human soul and keep us from such sin.
I don't think anyone, 3 step or not, would disagree with this.
In the mean time, let's keep this family and community in prayer.
There ya go! But that's a lot different than the way his post came across I think.
If the point is, one can be a professing Christian (whether they speak in tongues or not) and be living a sham I don't know anyone here that would disagree.
The fact that tongues were brought into this is simply curious.
Ev. Duane Williams
04-01-2011, 09:42 AM
Apparently this is exactly where it happens.
I guess you've got a point there Theophil. Just let your hair grow out and no one will ever find out.
Hoovie
04-01-2011, 09:43 AM
Since evidently you despise the three step doctrine simply dis associate yourself from it and we who believe the doctrine will have to bear the reproach.
Notwithstanding we could probably find many articles on the net describing heinous acts committed by "believe only" ministers.
Bingo. (and I guess I would be called a One-Stepper)
Hoovie
04-01-2011, 09:54 AM
They were ordained in 2008. I was present at the ordination service. Whether they still held ordination at the time, I can't say. There was nothing from fellowshipping with them that would ever lead me to believe they could do something like this. The elder would say some things behind the pulpit that would make you scratch your head sometimes, and the younger I have to admit seemed a little strange, but never in my wildest nightmares did I ever think they were capable of something so horrible.
Ordained by whom? What was the church association where the event was held?
berkeley
04-01-2011, 10:28 AM
That is absoultely horrifying. What a terrible tragedy. "Apostolic ministers", what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing. tongues speakers can be just a svile as the world. We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues. BTW I'm not trying to hijack this thread with the initial evidence doctrine, but my point is people like this, literally murderers can minister in "apostolic" churches largely because apostolics have such a tendancy to equate that with redemption, and it has nothing to do with redemption, and because of that, now great shame is upon the church, and much worse and unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way.
I want to speak in Jason's defense.
I don't think Jason's point was to use this to slam the 3 step doctrine. Jason's point is, 3 step or not, one needs a REAL relationship with Jesus Christ. Jason slammed the 3 step doctrine before emphasising the REAL relationship with Jesus Christ. That doesn't come by spiritual giftings, sacraments, dress codes, etc. What every believer NEEDS is a real, living, and breathing relationship with Jesus. If these people could do such a thing... we should beware, all of us are capable of untold evil. Our "religion" isn't want changes us... only Jesus. Only a deep and loving relationship with Jesus can save the human soul and keep us from such sin.
I don't think anyone, 3 step or not, would disagree with this.
In the mean time, let's keep this family and community in prayer.
You were saying???
berkeley
04-01-2011, 10:31 AM
Let's forget about the distraction caused by the kissing cousins (Jason and Aquila) and let's pray for those affected by this.
Scott Hutchinson
04-01-2011, 10:33 AM
How tragic this is.
Falla39
04-01-2011, 10:52 AM
And the world tells us "Just follow your heart".
But the Word tells us "This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the
lust of the flesh". Gal. 5:16
Which report are we going to believe!
Falla39
Ev. Duane Williams
04-01-2011, 03:36 PM
Ordained by whom? What was the church association where the event was held?
Out of embarrassment, I'm not going to say. It's not one of the Big Ones, I can tell you that.
Theophil
04-01-2011, 04:09 PM
I guess you've got a point there Theophil. Just let your hair grow out and no one will ever find out.
???????? I don't know what this means, Ev. Duane Williams.
onefaith2
04-01-2011, 04:24 PM
Jason very dispicable. The 3 step plan changed my life and thousands of others I've met because they had a real relationship with Christ in that three step doctrine. Amazing.
This poor family, victims of backslidden professing believers who happen to speak in tongues and be baptized in Jesus name. Perhaps this family entertained the WRONG spirit in their conclusion. May God have mercy on all of them and help this family find peace in Jesus name. Think of the children also!
Jason B
04-01-2011, 04:32 PM
Jason that is asinine. What these people did had nothing to do with doctrine. People of all doctrinal flavors have gone bad and done bad things
That was my point. For years all I've heard is how "we got it, and everyone else is going to hell" but in reality there are just as many news stories where "apostolics" commit heinous acts as other people.
Jason B
04-01-2011, 04:39 PM
I want to speak in Jason's defense.
I don't think Jason's point was to use this to slam the 3 step doctrine. Jason's point is, 3 step or not, one needs a REAL relationship with Jesus Christ. That doesn't come by spiritual giftings, sacraments, dress codes, etc. What every believer NEEDS is a real, living, and breathing relationship with Jesus. If these people could do such a thing... we should beware, all of us are capable of untold evil. Our "religion" isn't want changes us... only Jesus. Only a deep and loving relationship with Jesus can save the human soul and keep us from such sin.
I don't think anyone, 3 step or not, would disagree with this.
In the mean time, let's keep this family and community in prayer.
Exactly Chris. Thank you. OPs can become so judgmental on everyone else over an "experience" but the facts continually show that this experience doess not translate into "real" Christianity.
onefaith2
04-01-2011, 04:42 PM
Exactly Chris. Thank you. OPs can become so judgmental on everyone else over an "experience" but the facts continually show that this experience doess not translate into "real" Christianity.
Really? Another bias' judgement that OPism can't produce real Christians. Sad when the entire first church had this experience, I guess they weren't real Christians either?
Talking about judgementalism. DO you realize what you just said, or do you need to reword?
onefaith2
04-01-2011, 04:45 PM
That was my point. For years all I've heard is how "we got it, and everyone else is going to hell" but in reality there are just as many news stories where "apostolics" commit heinous acts as other people.
prove this.. what statistics do you have to make such a claim. Not that it isn't possible, but I'd say the handle falls more on the trinity pentecostal tele-evangelists that OPs.
Jason B
04-01-2011, 04:46 PM
How ridiculous is this? Christians who are tongue speakers fight the same battles, and fall in similar ways at times. That is not the fault of "tongues", but rather our fallen nature and ADAM.
I personally know of a few non tongue speakers who cut their family into pieces. So what?
Hoovie, but speaking in tongues is PROOF that we ARE DIFFERENT, that we are HOLY, that we ARE GOD's PEOPLE, and everyone else is damned. Of course non-tounge speaking folks do this, they are all decieved headed for a devils hell. I know those are not your views, or the views of many here on AFF, but the fact is that is the prevalent view of most OPs, and it is that theory that doesn't work out in practice. In practice those who speak in tongues, and those who do not, both need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, or "sin lies at the door".
onefaith2
04-01-2011, 04:50 PM
Hoovie, but speaking in tongues is PROOF that we ARE DIFFERENT, that we are HOLY, that we ARE GOD's PEOPLE, and everyone else is damned. Of course non-tounge speaking folks do this, they are all decieved headed for a devils hell. I know those are not your views, or the views of many here on AFF, but the fact is that is the prevalent view of most OPs, and it is that theory that doesn't work out in practice. In practice those who speak in tongues, and those who do not, both need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, or "sin lies at the door".
But this is not what your posts are saying.. open your eyes.. you are saying the "experience" doesn't produce real Christians and OP's have to develop a relationship with Christ aside from the experience. IS that what you mean or are you willing to retract your statements. Not only are they seriously offensive to us who developed our walk with Christ through this experience, but your claims leads one to believe we would have developed that relationship without it as its "nothing" Thats simply not the case for a lot of us.
RandyWayne
04-01-2011, 04:55 PM
And the world tells us "Just follow your heart".
Well, much of Christiandom says the same thing as well. Except they/we call it "following that still small voice" and proceed to interpret every emotion, whim, and gurgling of the stomach as God speaking.
Michael The Disciple
04-01-2011, 05:00 PM
Exactly Chris. Thank you. OPs can become so judgmental on everyone else over an "experience" but the facts continually show that this experience doess not translate into "real" Christianity.
Ok lets delve into the one step doctrine a minute. Are THEY JUDGMENTAL OF US? Do they call us heretics and say we are a cult?
What about the one step experience? Does that always transform a man into a good solid Christian?
Lets look at the life of the man who started the one step movement historically speaking called the Protestant Reformation.
Martin Luther
Anyone who can be proved to be a seditious person is an outlaw before God and the emperor; and whoever is the first to put him to death does right and well. Therefore let everyone who can, smite, slay and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful, or devilish than a rebel.
Read more: http://quotationsbook.com/quote/33708/#ixzz1IJarRDPs
on Quotations Book
Many thousands were being put to death in a peasant rebellion. Luther gave his advice and sanctioned the slaughter.
He also wrote a treatise called "The Lies Of The Jews". This was used by Adolf Hitler as incentive to destroy the Jews in Europe.
How transformed was he? Should all one step believers be identified with such a man as this?
Jason B
04-01-2011, 05:00 PM
Really? Another bias' judgement that OPism can't produce real Christians. Sad when the entire first church had this experience, I guess they weren't real Christians either?
Talking about judgementalism. DO you realize what you just said, or do you need to reword?
OF2 are you reading what I'm posting? I didn't say Oneness Pentecostalism has never produced real christians, NOT AT ALL. Some of the very best Christians I know, and have known are/were oneness pentecostal. I'm saying the outeard experience of speaking in tongues, if divorced from a real prayer life and desire to be a disciple of Jesus Christ is empty, and does absolutely NOTHING to change someones life. Everyone seems to be skipping over the last line of my initial post, which said "unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way."
This is no doubt a tragedy, a horrible tragedy, and I cannot imagine the grief of the family. But I'm saying it didn't have to be this way because if these men, who were ORDAINED MINISTERS, were submitting themselves to Christ, this would have never happened. But yet they appearently were active in the church right up to this point. Murder isn't something that just happens, it is something that has been in the heart, and because our churches are experience based (most of the time) we don't deal with the heart enough. There is absolutely no discernment in the church today. Furthermore, the church needs to be the place in the community that sinners can feel safe, and confident in the leadership, and obviously this church will forever have a stigma of having preachers who committed this terrible crime, no doubt reinforcing the unbelief of some of the unbelievers in their community, again, because there is too little discernment in the church, and not enough emphasis on a right relationship with Jesus Christ.
Jason B
04-01-2011, 05:07 PM
What about the one step experience? Does that always transform a man into a good solid Christian?
Yes. If the experience matches what the Bible says, explicitly detailed in the writings of Paul.
Martin Luther has as much to do with this discussion as Charles Parham. Zilch.
Jason B
04-01-2011, 05:09 PM
But this is not what your posts are saying.. open your eyes.. you are saying the "experience" doesn't produce real Christians and OP's have to develop a relationship with Christ aside from the experience. IS that what you mean or are you willing to retract your statements. Not only are they seriously offensive to us who developed our walk with Christ through this experience, but your claims leads one to believe we would have developed that relationship without it as its "nothing" Thats simply not the case for a lot of us. I don't want to discuss this in this thread, as it was never my intention in the first place. But I would like to start a new thread, based on the bolded statment, please comment there.
onefaith2
04-01-2011, 05:09 PM
OF2 are you reading what I'm posting? I didn't say Oneness Pentecostalism has never produced real christians, NOT AT ALL. Some of the very best Christians I know, and have known are/were oneness pentecostal. I'm saying the outeard experience of speaking in tongues, if divorced from a real prayer life and desire to be a disciple of Jesus Christ is empty, and does absolutely NOTHING to change someones life. Everyone seems to be skipping over the last line of my initial post, which said "unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way."
This is no doubt a tragedy, a horrible tragedy, and I cannot imagine the grief of the family. But I'm saying it didn't have to be this way because if these men, who were ORDAINED MINISTERS, were submitting themselves to Christ, this would have never happened. But yet they appearently were active in the church right up to this point. Murder isn't something that just happens, it is something that has been in the heart, and because our churches are experience based (most of the time) we don't deal with the heart enough. There is absolutely no discernment in the church today. Furthermore, the church needs to be the place in the community that sinners can feel safe, and confident in the leadership, and obviously this church will forever have a stigma of having preachers who committed this terrible crime, no doubt reinforcing the unbelief of some of the unbelievers in their community, again, because there is too little discernment in the church, and not enough emphasis on a right relationship with Jesus Christ.
Like I said, I understand what you are trying to say, but you used statements like this one that totally goes a different direction
what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing
Nothing, means nothing.. I can show you MANY people which this 3 step doctrine has changed. When you make statements like the one above, it leads us to interpret your post quite differently.
onefaith2
04-01-2011, 05:11 PM
I don't want to discuss this in this thread, as it was never my intention in the first place. But I would like to start a new thread, based on the bolded statment, please comment there.
I'd rather just read what everyone has to say. I grow weary of arguing this. No offense to you.
Jason B
04-01-2011, 05:15 PM
Like I said, I understand what you are trying to say, but you used statements like this one that totally goes a different direction
what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing
Nothing, means nothing.. I can show you MANY people which this 3 step doctrine has changed. When you make statements like the one above, it leads us to interpret your post quite differently.
Fair enough. Maybe I have clarified now, that I wasn't broadbrushing everyone who is OP, perhaps thats how it "sounded" over a keyboard, must have, to have people who are normally even keel such as Hoovie lash out. Anyway, I hope that I have explained that.
TGBTG
04-01-2011, 05:17 PM
That is absoultely horrifying. What a terrible tragedy. "Apostolic ministers", what has that 3 step, speak in tongues doctrine done to change someones life-nothing. tongues speakers can be just as vile as the world. We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues. BTW I'm not trying to hijack this thread with the initial evidence doctrine, but my point is people like this, literally murderers can minister in "apostolic" churches largely because apostolics have such a tendancy to equate that with redemption, and it has nothing to do with redemption, and because of that, now great shame is upon the church, and much worse and unnecessary damage has been done to a family, and it didn't have to be this way.
Hey Jason, I think I get your point that is "one's claim of experience is not what matters but rather a real relationship with the Lord Jesus. IOW,"by their fruits, you shall know them (not by their gifts)." I also believe your statement in no way invalidates the gift of tongues as I believe you have stated in times past on this forum that you do speak in tongues (correct me if I'm wrong about this).
However, I think that the red statement if taken at face value without proper context is what led some people to react to your statement the way they did. The blue statement I think clarifies your stance on the issue, but the way the first statement came off I admit could upset someone.
Just my $0.02
onefaith2
04-01-2011, 05:18 PM
Fair enough. Maybe I have clarified now, that I wasn't broadbrushing everyone who is OP, perhaps thats how it "sounded" over a keyboard, must have, to have people who are normally even keel such as Hoovie lash out. Anyway, I hope that I have explained that.
Understood here
Jason B
04-01-2011, 05:33 PM
Hey Jason, I think I get your point that is "one's claim of experience is not what matters but rather a real relationship with the Lord Jesus. IOW,"by their fruits, you shall know them (not by their gifts)." I also believe your statement in no way invalidates the gift of tongues as I believe you have stated in times past on this forum that you do speak in tongues (correct me if I'm wrong about this).
However, I think that the red statement if taken at face value without proper context is what led some people to react to your statement the way they did. The blue statement I think clarifies your stance on the issue, but the way the first statement came off I admit could upset someone.
Just my $0.02
Thank you, and offense to anyone wasn't my intention.
You are right, FRUITS not GIFTS. We emphasize the wrong things, and that opens us up to poor leadership, because basically the whole movement is like this. We are interested in "power" specifically manifested through the gifts, rather than in "understanding" rooted in the knowledge of the Word of God.
You have correctly said I have spoken in tongues, many times in fact.
And yes context is always a big factor to take into consideration. I think in reading the first statment some peoples minds were made up before they even read the second one, that is, if they didn't hit the "quote" button before reading the entire post. I don't regret what I said, but I DO regret posting it here, in this thread, because I said "BTW I'm not trying to hijack this thread." And yet that is what happened.
Esther
04-01-2011, 05:36 PM
That was my point. For years all I've heard is how "we got it, and everyone else is going to hell" but in reality there are just as many news stories where "apostolics" commit heinous acts as other people.
And how does that change what is right?
Hoovie
04-01-2011, 06:54 PM
Jason, even strong initial evidence people like David Bernard make it clear that tongues are not a shortcut or replacement for the long term evidence in a Christian's life.
Until we have quotes of people claiming tongues are the ultimate cure for all things carnal, I can agree that "We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues" ALONE. Certainly tongues are a part of many people's conversion experience, consecration and dedication.
Hoovie
04-01-2011, 07:23 PM
David Bernard says this about tongues in his New Birth book:
"Speaking in tongues is the initial sign of receiving the Spirit, but by itself it does not prove the abiding presence of the Spirit. Many more important evidences of the Spirit's abiding presence exist, such as the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23)"
Jason B
04-01-2011, 07:42 PM
David Bernard says this about tongues in his New Birth book:
"Speaking in tongues is the initial sign of receiving the Spirit, but by itself it does not prove the abiding presence of the Spirit. Many more important evidences of the Spirit's abiding presence exist, such as the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23)"
I like DKB, I've read several of his books, and even have "The Complete Works" CD-Rom, and have read very much of the material on there, but He often speaks out of both sides of his mouth. In the same book He also says these things, which are all against his three step theology:
"The essense of salvation is receiving forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ." pg.23
"God remits sin at water baptism." Pg. 92
"Repentance and water baptism complete the full work of forgiveness." pg 115
"At baptism God washes away sin by removing the eternal record and penalty of sin." pg 115
I have been trying to figure out how someone can recieve forgiveness of sins at faith (pg.23), and furthermore, Have the complete work of forgiveness in their life by repetnance and baptism (pg 115) and have the eternal penalty of sin removed (pg 115) and still not be saved, because they have not spoken in tongues, and thus, have not the Spirit (see Romans 8:9).
However, only a "person who receives the Holy Spirit achieves a close personal union with God." (pg188) And of course DKB says that the only evidence of someone recieving the Spirit is by speaking in tongues. Thus anyway we spin it or slice it, the end result is that if you havene't spoken in tongues you have not the Spirit, and you have not acheived a "close personal union with God." The obvious implication is that if you have indeed spoken with tongues you have achieved this union. However, since practice does not bear this out, there must needs be the conditional clause that you have quoted.
Hoovie
04-01-2011, 07:51 PM
Neither of the guys seem to have been the pastor at present.
The Inmans were members of the Faith Tabernacle Church. Fellow church member, Jim Bailey, who has known the Inmans for more than 10 years, tells ABC 6/Fox 28 Reporter Meghan McCorkell, "I don't know what caused them to do this."
Pastor King Kelly tells McCorkell, "It was a shock. Of course everyone in here, so many people are in disbelief."
http://www.abc6onyourside.com/shared/newsroom/top_stories/videos/wsyx_vid_10095.shtml?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d95469 3d7c04343,0
Hoovie
04-01-2011, 08:03 PM
Sounds like they had not been so intimately involved with the church in recent years.
"Pastor King Kelly of Faith Tabernacle Church said William and Sandra Inman were familiar with every inch of the church and its grounds. They were married at the church and the elder Inman helped build two church additions, he said.
They left the church about eight years ago when they moved temporarily to Florida, but William Inman still attended services from time to time. "It's a shock, a shock to everyone," Kelly said of the discovery of Summer in the septic tank."
If you go to this site then go to the bottom of the page there is another video with additional footage. http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/03/30/body-may-be-missing-womans.html?sid=101
pelathais
04-02-2011, 02:10 AM
Jason, even strong initial evidence people like David Bernard make it clear that tongues are not a shortcut or replacement for the long term evidence in a Christian's life.
Until we have quotes of people claiming tongues are the ultimate cure for all things carnal, I can agree that "We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues" ALONE. Certainly tongues are a part of many people's conversion experience, consecration and dedication.
I guess the key word here is "initial" and that does beg the question, "Just what is the continuing evidence?"
I take it that Jason was simply reacting to some harsh condemnation that he has seen or heard personally and that this horrendous news article triggered the thought that at least some of the extravagant claims of those he describes run counter to our actual real world experiences.
I personally feel hurt inside after reading this. What a terrible thing to do to a church and what a horrible, horrible thing to do to the mother of three kids and to those children as well. I don't wanna argue anything here.
I am glad the news article makes it clear that they had not been a member of that church for many years. It does not make the crime any less horrible but at least is not a black eye on that church or Apostolic/Pentecostals in general.
This story reminds me of something a former pastor of mind used to say. He would caution the congregation about being condescending towards people who have committed atrocious sins because without God any of us are capable of anything.
jfrog
04-02-2011, 08:48 AM
I am glad the news article makes it clear that they had not been a member of that church for many years. It does not make the crime any less horrible but at least is not a black eye on that church or Apostolic/Pentecostals in general.
This story reminds me of something a former pastor of mind used to say. He would caution the congregation about being condescending towards people who have committed atrocious sins because without God any of us are capable of anything.
Someone said they were ordained 2-3 years ago?
aegsm76
04-02-2011, 09:04 AM
I am glad the news article makes it clear that they had not been a member of that church for many years. It does not make the crime any less horrible but at least is not a black eye on that church or Apostolic/Pentecostals in general.
This story reminds me of something a former pastor of mind used to say. He would caution the congregation about being condescending towards people who have committed atrocious sins because without God any of us are capable of anything.
Amen.
.
Jermyn Davidson
04-02-2011, 12:43 PM
We need a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and it doesn't come by tongues.
I hope I am not the first to ask this but why can't this be just another example of people who do have a relationship with Jesus Christ but in their humanity choose to sin?
Yes, there are consequences to sinful decisions- even for Christians, maybe even especially for Christians.
Still, I don't doubt the sincerity or salvation of these folks because of a decision to sin.
No excuse for the sin, but all of us are guilty of something and all of us will need Grace, mercy and restoration at least one more time before dying.
Someone said they were ordained 2-3 years ago?
According to the news articlel I read they had not gone to that church for 8 years if I remember correctly. Apparently at some point the mom and dad moved away then moved back but did not go to the church when they moved back if I understood correctly. They did say the son would occasionally attend.
Hoovie
04-02-2011, 03:05 PM
I think it entirely possible this was not premeditated murder. They may have kidnapped her with intent to have a face to face "what for" and things went bad in a struggle... It will be interesting to see what comes out in testimony.
Cindy
04-02-2011, 03:15 PM
Does Ohio have the death penalty?
Hoovie
04-02-2011, 03:28 PM
In some cases.
http://drc.ohio.gov/Public/capital.htm
Ev. Duane Williams
04-04-2011, 12:31 PM
Please forgive me. It should have been title "FORMER Apostolic Ministers Alledgedly........" I recently learned that their ministerial licences were permanently revoked in early 2010, just a few months after they were ordained, for conduct unbecoming of ministers of the fellowship.
Do we even know if these people were "three steppers" as they have been accused of being? They surely arent Holiness folk...
Way too weird. You can almost understand the husband in a crime of passion, but the parents? Way, way too weird.
I think it entirely possible this was not premeditated murder. They may have kidnapped her with intent to have a face to face "what for" and things went bad in a struggle... It will be interesting to see what comes out in testimony.
I thought the same thing.....
Please forgive me. It should have been title "FORMER Apostolic Ministers Alledgedly........" I recently learned that their ministerial licences were permanently revoked in early 2010, just a few months after they were ordained, for conduct unbecoming of ministers of the fellowship.
I have changed the title to your thread by adding the word "Former" as you requested. That made the title too long so I had to leave out the word "young" before "woman".
missourimary
04-04-2011, 03:38 PM
It may not have been premeditated, but she was bound, strangled with a rope or cord, and stuffed in the septic tank of the church where they were married. None of those three is typical of an altercation, even in bad domestic violence situations (at least that I'm aware of). Add to it that she was afraid he'd hurt her, and that there are journal entries to prove it, and the courts are going to be likely to consider it premeditated by at least one of the three.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/04/03/failure-after-failure-left-family-struggling.html Read the article and the journal entries to the side. Very, very sad.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/03/30/body-may-be-missing-womans.html
Ev. Duane Williams
04-08-2011, 01:24 PM
As to the 3 stepper vs. 1 stepper issue, having heard Bill Inman preach, I cannot honestly tell you which side he was on. He never really preached on the plan of salvation or emphasized, as so many 3 steppers do, Acts 2:38. Both Churches I attended with the Inmans fellowship 3 steppers and 1 steppers as well as Trinitarians.
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