View Full Version : Holiness, Standards and the bible
Praxeas
04-03-2011, 04:40 PM
I've always thought it was a double standard to declare "The Trinity is not in the bible" yet use the terms A"Holiness Standard", which is not found in the bible.
So, why is uncut hair a Holiness issue? The bible never mentions the word Holiness or Separation with regards to uncut hair on women.
Does the word holiness or separation from the world ever coincide with other "standard" related issues such as jewelry, facial hair, clothing or TV watching?
Arphaxad
04-03-2011, 05:19 PM
Standards never made anyone holy.
:doggyrun
Praxeas
04-03-2011, 06:19 PM
The bible doesn't even refer to any of the "standards" as "Holy" does it?
Why are they being called "Holiness standards" then? It's one thing to argue the bible teaches us to do certain things or not do certain things, but to apply them in a non-biblical way is ...well....unbiblical
coadie
04-03-2011, 06:24 PM
“Therefore, come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you."
After we are born again, we are to be separated from our sinful and carnal past. Holiness is often defined as separation.
The root idea of holiness is that of separation. The Jews were the holy people, the nation which was quite separate and different from other peoples. The circumcision was an example of separation and differentiation by God's chosen people.
The veil in the tabernacle was to separate the Holiest of Holies from the man on the "street"
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
(Romans 2:29)
The fruit inspector and gossip ministry is one of the most unholy activities in holiness churches. Talking against bishops which express expectations is just as bad murmering about Moses. The woman wearing jean shorts at the altar this morning in our church was touching God. The women talking about it were not.
hometown guy
04-03-2011, 06:26 PM
I'm tired of talking about standards..... Let's talk about a more important issue....
Praxeas
04-03-2011, 06:26 PM
Uh...wow. Coadie! How profound :heeheehee
Praxeas
04-03-2011, 06:28 PM
I'm tired of talking about standards..... Let's talk about a more important issue....
Let's talk about how to love beyond our differences. Why don't you start that thread bro?
FaithPreacher
04-03-2011, 07:07 PM
What men call "holiness" is a tragic misrepresentation of what holiness really is. "Standards" have nothing to do with holiness.
coadie
04-03-2011, 07:26 PM
What men call "holiness" is a tragic misrepresentation of what holiness really is. "Standards" have nothing to do with holiness.
Some would keep going to strip joints after "conversion"? They could calll it missional?
FaithPreacher
04-03-2011, 07:36 PM
Some would keep going to strip joints after "conversion"? They could calll it missional?
The subject is "holiness standards", you know, hair, pants, jewelry.
faithit166
04-03-2011, 08:45 PM
well i reckon if the lord hadnt convicted me of my pants and cutting my hair then i probably would be doing it today,but since he has, there must be a reason for it
missourimary
04-03-2011, 08:56 PM
Some would keep going to strip joints after "conversion"? They could calll it missional?
I think there's a huge difference between doing something as unto the Lord because He puts it on your heart and doing something because you're Pentecostal and the preacher says to, people will look at you funny, you'll get yelled at or kicked out, you can't be on the platform, people will think you're not saved if you don't, or because people will think you're more in tune with God the longer your sleeves/hem/hair is. The first is done in love and gratitude. The second is done in pride and for selfish reasons. The first is scriptural separation from the world due to the circumcision of our hearts. The second trusts only in flesh.
kclee4jc
04-03-2011, 08:59 PM
I find it funny that for a forum in which the majority of members do not believe in conservative holiness standards, that is the topic that receives so much attention. It's almost as if something is eating at you..
Personally if i quit believe in holiness...it would seem easier to just forget about it than to constantly fight it. Now, if I quit living in holiness but knew deep down that it was still what God had called me to...that would probably entail a daily fight to justify my actions and distance myself from what i was always being pulled back to.
missourimary
04-03-2011, 09:02 PM
I've always thought it was a double standard to declare "The Trinity is not in the bible" yet use the terms A"Holiness Standard", which is not found in the bible.
So, why is uncut hair a Holiness issue? The bible never mentions the word Holiness or Separation with regards to uncut hair on women.
Does the word holiness or separation from the world ever coincide with other "standard" related issues such as jewelry, facial hair, clothing or TV watching?
Holiness in the Bible and the holiness movement in America that has come to be known by standards in some circles are two different things. That doesn't make standards right or wrong, though.
Praxeas
04-04-2011, 01:24 AM
well i reckon if the lord hadnt convicted me of my pants and cutting my hair then i probably would be doing it today,but since he has, there must be a reason for it
That is beside the point. The bible never stresses the idea that hair is a Holiness issue does it?
Praxeas
04-04-2011, 01:26 AM
I find it funny that for a forum in which the majority of members do not believe in conservative holiness standards, that is the topic that receives so much attention. It's almost as if something is eating at you..
Personally if i quit believe in holiness...it would seem easier to just forget about it than to constantly fight it. Now, if I quit living in holiness but knew deep down that it was still what God had called me to...that would probably entail a daily fight to justify my actions and distance myself from what i was always being pulled back to.
The topic is not whether or not those beliefs are correct but what they have to do with the idea of Holiness.
BTW I knew this would be the reaction. See, people that believe in standards typically say that people that don't believe their idea of these rules no longer believe in Holiness
But the question is where does the bible refer to some of these things as Holiness?
Praxeas
04-04-2011, 01:52 AM
It's funny how some can't see the difference here.
This thread is not about keeping standards or not keeping standards. This is not about rules or regulations you need to keep or otherwise you are not a christian.
This is purely about how or why they are said to be about Holiness.
LUKE2447
04-04-2011, 08:05 AM
All that I have is separated unto the Lord. Thus it is all holiness unto his order and purpose.
mfblume
04-04-2011, 08:42 AM
The topic is not whether or not those beliefs are correct but what they have to do with the idea of Holiness.
BTW I knew this would be the reaction. See, people that believe in standards typically say that people that don't believe their idea of these rules no longer believe in Holiness
But the question is where does the bible refer to some of these things as Holiness?
Very good point. Usually it is people who never really thought this issue through and extrapolated back in their thoughts to ask themselves why dress codes ever got associated with holiness who immediately become defensive.
FaithPreacher
04-04-2011, 09:15 AM
That is beside the point. The bible never stresses the idea that hair is a Holiness issue does it?
Absolutely not.
AncientPaths
04-05-2011, 11:28 PM
I find it funny that for a forum in which the majority of members do not believe in conservative holiness standards, that is the topic that receives so much attention. It's almost as if something is eating at you..
Personally if i quit believe in holiness...it would seem easier to just forget about it than to constantly fight it. Now, if I quit living in holiness but knew deep down that it was still what God had called me to...that would probably entail a daily fight to justify my actions and distance myself from what i was always being pulled back to.
Nah. It's just that it's an important topic. When you feel like you have a great truth that fails to reach its audience because of some non-essential, man-made, unbiblical traditions that developed in the 1950s - it can be frustrating to watch.
missourimary
04-06-2011, 07:48 AM
I find it funny that for a forum in which the majority of members do not believe in conservative holiness standards, that is the topic that receives so much attention.
I wonder if first century Jews said the same about Paul and the Gentile churches? They pressured the Gentiles to be circumcised and live by the law. Even after receiving letters from Jerusalem saying the Gentiles didn't have to keep Levitical law, there was still a lot of discussion about the topic because of the pressure to conform to Levitical teachings.
pelathais
04-06-2011, 08:02 AM
I find it funny that for a forum in which the majority of members do not believe in conservative holiness standards, that is the topic that receives so much attention.
I believe in "conservative holiness standards." In fact, I'm so conservative about this issue that I reject all of the new stuff that you guys made up during the last half of the 20th century.
What "Ancient Paths" is saying TIC, I actually take quite seriously.
It's almost as if something is eating at you..
You got me there. It just bugs the daylights out me to think of how I wasted so many years following man-made ordinances as if they were the commandments of God.
I am determined to speak out against these types of abuses and to help all I can to see the richness of life to be found in becoming a follower of Jesus Christ instead of a follower of men.
Personally if i quit believe in holiness...it would seem easier to just forget about it than to constantly fight it. Now, if I quit living in holiness but knew deep down that it was still what God had called me to...that would probably entail a daily fight to justify my actions and distance myself from what i was always being pulled back to.
You see, that's the whole point. I never "quit believing in holiness." In fact, I'm kind of radical about it. For example, I believe God's Word to be so holy that it is a sin to add to it.
The "daily fight" I wage is to free those who are bound and to proclaim the Good News of the Gospel.
pelathais
04-06-2011, 08:04 AM
well i reckon if the lord hadnt convicted me of my pants and cutting my hair then i probably would be doing it today,but since he has, there must be a reason for it
That's odd. The only "conviction" I feel from God concerning "pants" is that I should wear some. And, "cutting my hair" - while it is obviously not a Biblical commandment, I do this just because it makes things easier for me in the morning.
pelathais
04-06-2011, 08:10 AM
Nah. It's just that it's an important topic. When you feel like you have a great truth that fails to reach its audience because of some non-essential, man-made, unbiblical traditions that developed in the 1950s - it can be frustrating to watch.
:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:
Our whole message either gets lost or hung out to dry on the clothesline because of the silly, silly stuff that entangle us due to our hillbilly* theologies.
*I call it the way I see it. I use the term "hillbilly" to described the unlettered and unlearned "revelations" that swarm through our ranks from time to time. If you are offended by the term, tough. I come from a long line of proud Mountain Folk who taught me to read and ask questions.
Carpenter
04-06-2011, 10:01 AM
When you talk about standards you have to ask yourself about the purpose of standards, many are apparent and yet some are less apparent. Here are my observations for anyone who cares...
1. Standards as defined by the Apostolic church were developed as a way to maintain the religious culture. You can control anything by putting eternal consequenses to it. People are afraid of hell and even moreso losing their sense of community.
2. Standards as defined by the church bibically shouldn't apply to kids, yet we drill standards into them as a way of life. What happens is that they become part of their nature, standards defining WHO they are. They fear losing their identity if they were to lose their standards.
3. Many have been fooled into thinking that this is a choice. This is a lie from the pit of hell. The church has set up an untenable circumstance of choosing standards or hell...at least to me it seems like an easy choice. Unfortunatley it is linear too, embracing standards = Pleasing unto the Lord. Unfortunately I believe just the opposite, someone believing they are pleasing God through standards causes him to weep because of the situation at the cross being compromised.
Jermyn Davidson
04-06-2011, 10:17 AM
What men call "holiness" is a tragic misrepresentation of what holiness really is. "Standards" have nothing to do with holiness.
This is simply not true.
While standards are not the only thing to holiness, standards is a part of holiness.
houston
04-06-2011, 10:18 AM
"Like"
houston
04-06-2011, 10:20 AM
"Like"
post #26
Aquila
04-06-2011, 11:27 AM
I've always thought it was a double standard to declare "The Trinity is not in the bible" yet use the terms A"Holiness Standard", which is not found in the bible.
So, why is uncut hair a Holiness issue? The bible never mentions the word Holiness or Separation with regards to uncut hair on women.
Does the word holiness or separation from the world ever coincide with other "standard" related issues such as jewelry, facial hair, clothing or TV watching?
Sadly we focus on all these little "standards" as though they are eternal life. Absolute PERFECTION is the standard. And that is only found in Christ. He is our righteousness and our holiness... freely given to us who obey the Gospel. Not our silly little legalistic standards. We of all people should be the most grace filled people who are resting in justification and yeilding to sanctification. After all... we have the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of Christ Himself) dwelling within us. We are partakers of HIS divine nature. How can a silly standard compare to that reality? Sadly, we don't appropriate all that is ours in Jesus Christ. We'd rather get in the door, push Jesus away, and seek to save ourselves by measuring ourselves with ourselves. Believing that our goal is to avoid sin to be saved, we are always in debate over what is actually sin to justify ourselves and claim salvation as our own. Thus everyone has a different standard by which they are saved. Sin was dealt with by the blood. The old nature was crucified with Christ. A new nature is imparted to us who have obeyed the Gospel. If we are lost... it's because we've neglected the cultivation of that new nature and embraced legalistic standards by which to measure our "progress" on the way to Heaven's door. It's not about us. It's about Jesus in us. We must take heed... lest we fall from grace.
Galatians 5:4-5 (King James Version)
3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Galatians 5:3-5 (New Living Translation)
3 I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses. 4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
5 But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us.
Galatians 5:3-5 (The Message)
2-3I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law. 4-6I suspect you would never intend this, but this is what happens. When you attempt to live by your own religious plans and projects, you are cut off from Christ, you fall out of grace. Meanwhile we expectantly wait for a satisfying relationship with the Spirit. For in Christ, neither our most conscientious religion nor disregard of religion amounts to anything. What matters is something far more interior: faith expressed in love.
AncientPaths
04-06-2011, 02:49 PM
I believe in "conservative holiness standards." In fact, I'm so conservative about this issue that I reject all of the new stuff that you guys made up during the last half of the 20th century.
What "Ancient Paths" is saying TIC, I actually take quite seriously.
You got me there. It just bugs the daylights out me to think of how I wasted so many years following man-made ordinances as if they were the commandments of God.
I am determined to speak out against these types of abuses and to help all I can to see the richness of life to be found in becoming a follower of Jesus Christ instead of a follower of men.
You see, that's the whole point. I never "quit believing in holiness." In fact, I'm kind of radical about it. For example, I believe God's Word to be so holy that it is a sin to add to it.
The "daily fight" I wage is to free those who are bound and to proclaim the Good News of the Gospel.
So does Ancient Paths. No TIC intended ;)
FaithPreacher
04-06-2011, 03:36 PM
So does Ancient Paths. No TIC intended ;)
Me, too.
vBulletin® v3.8.5, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.