View Full Version : A Question For MfBlume or others
Digging4Truth
04-06-2011, 08:06 AM
Anyone is free to comment on this but this is the sort of thing I would expect Brother Blume to have some insight on.
I was reading the other day about covenants. In particular I was reading about when one had to pass between the pieces etc.
I was wondering...
Has anyone ever drawn any real correlation between that covenant practice and the fact that Jesus was crucified between the 2 thieves?
Truthseeker
04-06-2011, 08:13 AM
Anyone is free to comment on this but this is the sort of thing I would expect Brother Blume to have some insight on.
I was reading the other day about covenants. In particular I was reading about when one had to pass between the pieces etc.
I was wondering...
Has anyone ever drawn any real correlation between that covenant practice and the fact that Jesus was crucified between the 2 thieves?
Don't see how it woukld relate.
mfblume
04-06-2011, 08:18 AM
I never considered that before as corresponding to Christ between two thieves. VERY INTERESTING THOUGHT.
What I DID consider was how God came down in a burning lamp and CUT THE COVENANT, so to speak. People in ancient times would cut their hands and mingle the blood by shaking on it to seal a covenant. It was cutting the covenant. And the pillar of fire coming down which was analogous to the pillar of fire that led them out of Egypt.
Abraham called it a horror of darkness when He was told what would come to pass with his seed being in Egypt as slaves but would be delivered. So it definitely pointed to the Exodus. Then the "smoking furnace" occurred and the "burning lamp" passed between the sacrifices. It is interesting that in the Exodus, Egypt was called an IRON FURNACE from which God brought Israel out (Deut. 4:20).
Connecting that with your newfound thought, Jesus was obviously cutting the covenant by His shed blood on the cross, and He previously discussed HIS "EXODOS" (Greek for "decease") that He should accomplish at Jerusalem with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.
I must consider your thought about the two thieves Christ died between some more! Thanks!
Digging4Truth
04-06-2011, 08:21 AM
I never considered that before as corresponding to Christ between two thieves. VERY INTERESTING THOUGHT.
What I DID consider was how God came down in a burning lamp and CUT THE COVENANT, so to speak. People in ancient times would cut their hands and mingle the blood by shaking on it to seal a covenant. It was cutting the covenant. And the pillar of fire coming down which was analogous to the pillar of fire that led them out of Egypt.
Abraham called it a horror of darkness when He was told what would come to pass with his seed being in Egypt as slaves but would be delivered. So it definitely pointed to the Exodus. Then the "smoking furnace" occurred and the "burning lamp" passed between the sacrifices. It is interesting that in the Exodus, Egypt was called an IRON FURNACE from which God brought Israel out (Deut. 4:20).
Connecting that with your newfound thought, Jesus was obviously cutting the covenant by His shed blood on the cross, and He previously discussed HIS "EXODOS" (Greek for "decease") that He should accomplish at Jerusalem with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.
I must consider your thought about the two thieves Christ died between some more! Thanks!
And thanks for sharing all of the above. It gives one something to think on. I look forward to hearing your continued thoughts as God speaks to your heart.
mfblume
04-06-2011, 08:22 AM
God, Himself came down and cut the covenant as the burning lamp. Sounds like that could connect to the fact Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.
Digging4Truth
04-06-2011, 08:28 AM
God, Himself came down and cut the covenant as the burning lamp. Sounds like that could connect to the fact Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.
Indeed.
And Jesus is the light of the world
pelathais
04-06-2011, 08:30 AM
Anyone is free to comment on this but this is the sort of thing I would expect Brother Blume to have some insight on.
I was reading the other day about covenants. In particular I was reading about when one had to pass between the pieces etc.
I was wondering...
Has anyone ever drawn any real correlation between that covenant practice and the fact that Jesus was crucified between the 2 thieves?
"Pass between the pieces" is often a reference to Abraham's experience in Genesis 15.
Jeremiah 34:18, is an interesting allusion to this practice as well.
The Hebrew word that is usually translated as "entered" in the context of "enter into a covenant" (see for example Deuteronomy 29:12) mean literally "to pass within" or "between." Here's R.A. Torrey's note on Deuteronomy 29:12:
"enter: Heb. pass, This is an allusion to the solemn ceremony used by several ancient nations, when they entered into a covenant with each other. The victims, slain as a sacrifice on this occasion, were divided, and and parts laid asunder. The contracting parties then passed between them, imprecating, as a curse on those who violated the sacred compact, that they might in like manner be cut asunder (Gen_15:10). St. Cyril, in his work against Julian, shows that passing between the divided parts of a victim was used also among the Chaldeans and other people."
I think the picture of Christ being "sacrificed between two thieves" may be an interesting study. At first, some might object by pointing out (and this was my initial thought) that Christ Himself was the sacrifice. Thus, those seeking to "enter" into covenant with Jesus Christ would have to pass between "the pieces" of Him. That doesn't really work.
However, if we were to see the two thieves as the representation of the penalty for sin - death. There are also obvious application to the "old covenant" - the Law, here. We see the horror and misery of the "covenant" that we all have "entered" into simply by being born in sin.
It is into this "covenant" - this place of hopelessness and despair that Jesus Christ "enters" and walks "between the pieces" of the old covenant with the promise of a new and better covenant.
Some have applied Psalm 50:1, to this same idea of "passing between the pieces."
"From the rising of the sun to the going down of thereof..." the Lord has "called the earth." It takes a bit of an imagination to see the applications here, in my opinion, but the idea does seem compelling.
mfblume
04-06-2011, 08:33 AM
All of this happened with Abraham as a result of him asking God how would he know he would receive the inheritance God promised him.
Genesis 15:5-8 KJV And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (7) And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. (8) And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
So the cutting of the animals and the fire coming down was all part of showing Abraham proof of his inheritance. In other words, GOD SWORE AN OATH AND CUT A COVENANT to establish the promise. He proved it by cutting a covenant.
Notice that fowls came down to devour the sacrifices while Abraham waited for the "proof".
Gene 15:11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
Sounds like the SEED OF THE WORD that fowls came to devour as the devil seeks to steal the WORD out of our hearts when planted there by God, in the parable of the sower and the seed. In other words, the enemy was trying to steal away Abraham's WORD and promise from his heart before God could confirm it. But Abraham showed commitment to the covenant and did not allow the enemy to steal the WORD.
I can see God coming down Himself to MINGLE and UNITE himself to Abraham in a manner of speaking. The sacrifices Abraham gave represented Abraham. When a person offered a sacrifice for sins, that sacrifice stood as that person who should have died. The sacrifice stands in proxy of the offerer. So when God came down and cut the covenant, the picture is that God united with Abraham symbolically and they came into ONE by covenant.
Translate that to Jesus on the cross, and perhaps your thoughts about the two thieves shows something powerful! Phew! Notice the two thieves were both sinners and deserved death like us all. The soul who sins shall die. But one thief repented. Is that not like the whole world for whom Jesus died and united in sacrifice for? He died for all mankind and came into union by sacrifice for us all. Even for those who will not repent. But whether we repent, or do not, we all were like the thieves. And He cut the covenant between the thieves who stood for us. And we who repent will be in the kingdom by that death WITH Christ.
Digging4Truth
04-06-2011, 08:33 AM
"Pass between the pieces" is often a reference to Abraham's experience in Genesis 15.
Jeremiah 34:18, is an interesting allusion to this practice as well.
The Hebrew word that is usually translated as "entered" in the context of "enter into a covenant" (see for example Deuteronomy 29:12) mean literally "to pass within" or "between." Here's R.A. Torrey's note on Deuteronomy 29:12:
"enter: Heb. pass, This is an allusion to the solemn ceremony used by several ancient nations, when they entered into a covenant with each other. The victims, slain as a sacrifice on this occasion, were divided, and and parts laid asunder. The contracting parties then passed between them, imprecating, as a curse on those who violated the sacred compact, that they might in like manner be cut asunder (Gen_15:10). St. Cyril, in his work against Julian, shows that passing between the divided parts of a victim was used also among the Chaldeans and other people."
I think the picture of Christ being "sacrificed between two thieves" may be an interesting study. At first, some might object by pointing out (and this was my initial thought) that Christ Himself was the sacrifice. Thus, those seeking to "enter" into covenant with Jesus Christ would have to pass between "the pieces" of Him. That doesn't really work.
However, if we were to see the two thieves as the representation of the penalty for sin - death. There are also obvious application to the "old covenant" - the Law, here. We see the horror and misery of the "covenant" that we all have "entered" into simply by being born in sin.
It is into this "covenant" - this place of hopelessness and despair that Jesus Christ "enters" and walks "between the pieces" of the old covenant with the promise of a new and better covenant.
Some have applied Psalm 50:1, to this same idea of "passing between the pieces."
"From the rising of the sun to the going down of thereof..." the Lord has "called the earth." It takes a bit of an imagination to see the applications here, in my opinion, but the idea does seem compelling.
Yes sir. One doesn't want to force these things but when we begin thinking on it sometimes pieces start coming together that we would never have considered otherwise.
mfblume
04-06-2011, 08:36 AM
And the entire picture of the EXODUS with the pillar of fire, or burning lamp, was coming out of Egypt to the land of PROMISE that was given to Abraham. The people of Israel were Abraham's seed who would fulfil his inheritance.
mfblume
04-06-2011, 08:36 AM
Great info. Pel!!!!!
Digging4Truth
04-06-2011, 08:37 AM
All of this happened with Abraham as a result of him asking God how would he know he would receive the inheritance God promised him.
Genesis 15:5-8 KJV And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (7) And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. (8) And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
So the cutting of the animals and the fire coming down was all part of showing Abraham proof of his inheritance. In other words, GOD SWORE AN OATH AND CUT A COVENANT to establish the promise. He proved it by cutting a covenant.
Notice that fowls came down to devour the sacrifices while Abraham waited for the "proof".
Gene 15:11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
Sounds like the SEED OF THE WORD that fowls came to devour as the devil seeks to steal the WORD out of our hearts when planted there by God, in the parable of the sower and the seed. In other words, the enemy was trying to steal away Abraham's WORD and promise from his heart before God could confirm it. But Abraham showed commitment to the covenant and did not allow the enemy to steal the WORD.
I can see God coming down Himself to MINGLE and UNITE himself to Abraham in a manner of speaking. The sacrifices Abraham gave represented Abraham. When a person offered a sacrifice for sins, that sacrifice stood as that person who should have died. The sacrifice stands in proxy of the offerer. So when God came down and cut the covenant, the picture is that God united with Abraham symbolically and they came into ONE by covenant.
Translate that to Jesus on the cross, and perhaps your thoughts about the two thieves shows something powerful! Phew! Notice the two thieves were both sinners and deserved death like us all. The soul who sins shall die. But one thief repented. Is that not like the whole world for whom Jesus died and united in sacrifice for? He died for all mankind and came into union by sacrifice for us all. Even for those who will not repent. But whether we repent, or do not, we all were like the thieves. And He cut the covenant between the thieves who stood for us. And we who repent will be in the kingdom by that death WITH Christ.
I have heard it taught that the change of Abram's name to Abraham placed the AH in his name and mingled his name with God's. As with Sarai vs Sarah.
So... it is at this point (2 chapters later) that, if this teaching has any merit, that God did mingle his name with Abrams
mfblume
04-06-2011, 08:39 AM
I have heard it taught that the change of Abram's name to Abraham placed the AH in his name and mingled his name with God's. As with Sarai vs Sarah.
So... it is at this point (2 chapters later) that, if this teaching has any merit, that God did mingle his name with Abrams
Amen. A union of bringing us into covenant with God.
mfblume
04-06-2011, 09:18 AM
I wonder if fire coming down to consume the sacrifice is connected to the idea of God coming into union with us by covenant sacrifice. Puts a new light on the how the Holy Ghost came as tongues of fire over the heads of the 120 in the upper room! Jesus was sacrificed, but the fire fell on the 120, too!
Seascapes
04-06-2011, 09:34 AM
Enjoyed reading the post.... brought to memory something that I heard years ago and would like to throw it in.....
Between the Old Testament and the New Testament was 400 years of darkness (silence) ... then Jesus (The LIGHT) was born, but the New Testament did not begin until the TESTATOR (Jesus Christ) died on the cross. The WILL (covenant) doesn't become effective until the one that made it dies.
I enjoy reading your post mfblume
mfblume
04-06-2011, 09:36 AM
Enjoyed reading the post.... brought to memory something that I heard years ago and would like to throw it in.....
Between the Old Testament and the New Testament was 400 years of darkness (silence) ... then Jesus (The LIGHT) was born, but the New Testament did not begin until the TESTATOR (Jesus Christ) died on the cross. The WILL (covenant) doesn't become effective until the one that made it dies.
WOW!
I enjoy reading your post mfblume
I enjoyed this post from you, too!
Seascapes
04-06-2011, 10:35 AM
mfblume, I believe a good sermon is coming together. ..... The fire that came down on the Day of Pentecost.....and the covenants... By the way, when you get it together I want a copy.
pelathais
04-06-2011, 12:04 PM
mfblume, I believe a good sermon is coming together. ..... The fire that came down on the Day of Pentecost.....and the covenants... By the way, when you get it together I want a copy.
Mike has a gift when it comes to putting word pictures together. One sign of a mature theologian is their ability to tie disparate events in the Bible together in a manner that clearly and consistently demonstrate the timeless ways God has interacted with man.
There's always a "fire." There's always a "covenant." There is always a hope and promise of "light" in every period of "darkness." God is always faithful.
Digging4Truth
04-06-2011, 12:05 PM
Mike has a gift when it comes to putting word pictures together. One sign of a mature theologian is their ability to tie disparate events in the Bible together in a manner that clearly and consistently demonstrate the timeless ways God has interacted with man.
There's always a "fire." There's always a "covenant." There is always a hope and promise of "light" in every period of "darkness." God is always faithful.
Well stated and so true on all counts.
mfblume
04-06-2011, 01:31 PM
Thanks for your words of encouragement, Pel. Whew. Just the way you worded that lets us know that you are well matured in your biblical knowledge to think of things in that manner.
These are lessons 32 and 33 of the Pentecostal Bible Study Course distributed by Word Aflame. The Pentecosta Bible Study Course used to be known as the Oneness Pentecostal Correspondence Course and was required reading for those without a Bible School education who wanted to become licensed ministers with the UPC. I have an old set of these lessons in two loose leaf binders and have had them since 1956.
Lesson 32
Sonship
(Genesis 15)
I. God’s Reward
Since Abram refused the king of Sodom’s reward, the Lord appeared in a vision to him and
gave him a precious promise: “Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward” (Genesis 15:1). No one ever loses by giving up this world’s goods for the cause of Christ. He is our portion forever!
II. Sonship Depends on Resurrection Power
When Abram reminded the Lord that he was still childless, God promised him a son of his own, through whom his descendants would become as numerous as the stars (Genesis 15:2-5). “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness” (Genesis 15:6). Now, let us consider the kind of faith Abram had. Since Abram’s body was as good as dead, being about one hundred years old, this promise (sonship) depended on God giving life to what was dead. Likewise, our sonship depends on the resurrection power of God to give life to us who are dead in trespasses and in sin. Salvation is not simply reforming oneself! (See Romans 6:4-5; Colossians 2:13.)
III. Sonship Comes through Faith
Paul used Abram’s faith to show that our sonship in Christ depends on faith and not works.
Paul emphasized that it was not Abraham’s good works that caused God to give him a son: “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory. . . . For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness” (Romans 4:2-3).
God has ordained faith as the condition for receiving the promise, for a definite purpose: He
wants His children to attribute their salvation to the grace of God alone. Romans 4:4 declares, “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.” In other words, if we can earn our salvation by works, we will not think of our salvation as a gift but as a payment we have earned. Thus Romans 4:16 says, “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace.” (See Ephesians 2:8-9.)
“But to him that worketh not [does not depend upon good works for salvation], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Romans 4:5). Working on a dead body will never bring it to life. You may massage a dead man’s hands, you may pump air into his lungs, you may dress him up in the finest clothes, but he is still dead. Likewise, those who soothe their consciences by “turning over a new leaf” without being saved by the power of God are simply dressing up a dead man. No matter how respectable they look to people, they are still dead to God. A sinner is utterly helpless to make himself righteous in the sight of God by works.
Sonship, as in Abram’s case, depends on the power of God to raise from the dead. “(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead” (Romans 4:17). Abram believed God was able to do this, for “being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead . . . neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb . . . but was strong in faith, giving glory to God” (Romans 4:19-20). Abram did not focus on the deadness of his body but on the faithfulness of God. These things concerning Abram were written so that we might have the kind of faith he had and be saved. “Now it was not written for his sake alone, . . . but for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead” (Romans 4:23-24).
Lesson 33
Abram’s Vision
(Genesis 15)
I. Promise of Inheritance
God promised to give the land of Canaan to Abram. “And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it” (Genesis 15:7). Then Abram asked for a confirmation of this covenant, whereupon God instructed him to prepare a sacrifice consisting of a heifer, a female goat, a ram, a turtledove, and a pigeon.
II. Driving Away the Fowls
After Abram prepared the sacrifice and laid the pieces upon the altar, he stood guard by his
sacrifice until evening, waiting for God to appear to him. While he waited for the Lord, “the fowls came down upon the carcases, [and] Abram drove them away” (Genesis 15:11). Had he not done so, the fowls would have devoured the sacrifice before God appeared to him with His revelation of Abram’s future. Similarly, when a child of God consecrates his life to God and lays everything on the altar, the enemy will harass him with temptations, doubts, and fears. If he resists them, however, God will reveal Himself in a more precious way than ever. Often, when we kneel to pray, we must drive away thoughts concerning the cares of this life before we can pray to a place where God can speak. (See James 4:7.)
III. Prophecy
As the sun was going down, Abram fell into a deep sleep (Genesis 15:12). Abram was under the power of God, for he received a wonderful vision and a threefold prophecy of the future:
1. Bondage in Egypt. “An horror of great darkness fell upon him.” The great darkness that
descended upon Abram pointed to the darkness that would befall his posterity when the Egyptians enslaved them. “Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years” (Genesis 15:13).
2. The Exodus. The Lord revealed the Israelite’s exodus from Egypt: “Afterward shall they
come out with great substance” (Genesis 15:14).
3. Possession of Canaan. “But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again”
(Genesis 15:16). God revealed several hundred years of history concerning Abram’s posterity before he had a child!
IV. Abram’s Vision
“And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces” (Genesis 15:17). Here we have two figures that describe the path by which the Lord led Abram’s posterity.
1. A Smoking Furnace. This part of Abram’s vision prefigured the sufferings and trials
though which the Lord would lead Israel. “I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction” (Isaiah 48:10). The first great affliction they passed through was the Egyptian bondage. “But the LORD hath . . . brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt” (Deuteronomy 4:20). They later suffered captivity in Babylon and were dispersed among the nations.
2. A Burning Lamp. Through all these trials, God promised to be with them as a burning
lamp to comfort and to deliver them. When Nebuchadnezzar cast the three young Hebrew men into the fiery furnace, the onlookers saw someone else beside them in the angry flames—they saw someone who looked like the “Son of God.”
This verse is an example for the church. Those who will be heirs of God must have fellowship with Christ in His suffering. “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Philippians 1:29). Nevertheless, we can rejoice in these trials, knowing He will never abandon us (Hebrews 13:5). Through trials, God purifies His people and prepares them for His appearing. “Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried . . . and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand” (Daniel 12:10). Furthermore, Romans 8:17-18 says, “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”
Our faith must be “tried with fire” (I Peter 1:7). Moreover, Peter exhorted us, “Think it not
strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you” (I Peter 4:12). “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far moreexceeding and eternal weight of glory” (II Corinthians 4:17).
Again, the church, like Israel, need not fear the fiery furnace, for God has promised to be very near—yes, to dwell with those who suffer for Him. (See Hebrews 13:5-6.) The Holy Ghost will dwell within the Spirit-filled believer as fire, consuming all the dross in him (Matthew 3:11). It is the indwelling fire of God’s Holy Spirit that enables the child of God to pass through the furnace of affliction unharmed and without the slightest smell of smoke on his garments. God’s intention is to soften and melt our hearts, but without this burning lamp within our hearts, these same experiences, which were intended to draw us near our Savior, will harden us instead.
Digging4Truth
04-06-2011, 09:40 PM
These are lessons 32 and 33 of the Pentecostal Bible Study Course distributed by Word Aflame. The Pentecosta Bible Study Course used to be known as the Oneness Pentecostal Correspondence Course and was required reading for those without a Bible School education who wanted to become licensed ministers with the UPC. I have an old set of these lessons in two loose leaf binders and have had them since 1956.
Lesson 32
Sonship
(Genesis 15)
I. God’s Reward
Since Abram refused the king of Sodom’s reward, the Lord appeared in a vision to him and
gave him a precious promise: “Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward” (Genesis 15:1). No one ever loses by giving up this world’s goods for the cause of Christ. He is our portion forever!
II. Sonship Depends on Resurrection Power
When Abram reminded the Lord that he was still childless, God promised him a son of his own, through whom his descendants would become as numerous as the stars (Genesis 15:2-5). “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness” (Genesis 15:6). Now, let us consider the kind of faith Abram had. Since Abram’s body was as good as dead, being about one hundred years old, this promise (sonship) depended on God giving life to what was dead. Likewise, our sonship depends on the resurrection power of God to give life to us who are dead in trespasses and in sin. Salvation is not simply reforming oneself! (See Romans 6:4-5; Colossians 2:13.)
III. Sonship Comes through Faith
Paul used Abram’s faith to show that our sonship in Christ depends on faith and not works.
Paul emphasized that it was not Abraham’s good works that caused God to give him a son: “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory. . . . For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness” (Romans 4:2-3).
God has ordained faith as the condition for receiving the promise, for a definite purpose: He
wants His children to attribute their salvation to the grace of God alone. Romans 4:4 declares, “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.” In other words, if we can earn our salvation by works, we will not think of our salvation as a gift but as a payment we have earned. Thus Romans 4:16 says, “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace.” (See Ephesians 2:8-9.)
“But to him that worketh not [does not depend upon good works for salvation], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Romans 4:5). Working on a dead body will never bring it to life. You may massage a dead man’s hands, you may pump air into his lungs, you may dress him up in the finest clothes, but he is still dead. Likewise, those who soothe their consciences by “turning over a new leaf” without being saved by the power of God are simply dressing up a dead man. No matter how respectable they look to people, they are still dead to God. A sinner is utterly helpless to make himself righteous in the sight of God by works.
Sonship, as in Abram’s case, depends on the power of God to raise from the dead. “(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead” (Romans 4:17). Abram believed God was able to do this, for “being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead . . . neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb . . . but was strong in faith, giving glory to God” (Romans 4:19-20). Abram did not focus on the deadness of his body but on the faithfulness of God. These things concerning Abram were written so that we might have the kind of faith he had and be saved. “Now it was not written for his sake alone, . . . but for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead” (Romans 4:23-24).
Lesson 33
Abram’s Vision
(Genesis 15)
I. Promise of Inheritance
God promised to give the land of Canaan to Abram. “And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it” (Genesis 15:7). Then Abram asked for a confirmation of this covenant, whereupon God instructed him to prepare a sacrifice consisting of a heifer, a female goat, a ram, a turtledove, and a pigeon.
II. Driving Away the Fowls
After Abram prepared the sacrifice and laid the pieces upon the altar, he stood guard by his
sacrifice until evening, waiting for God to appear to him. While he waited for the Lord, “the fowls came down upon the carcases, [and] Abram drove them away” (Genesis 15:11). Had he not done so, the fowls would have devoured the sacrifice before God appeared to him with His revelation of Abram’s future. Similarly, when a child of God consecrates his life to God and lays everything on the altar, the enemy will harass him with temptations, doubts, and fears. If he resists them, however, God will reveal Himself in a more precious way than ever. Often, when we kneel to pray, we must drive away thoughts concerning the cares of this life before we can pray to a place where God can speak. (See James 4:7.)
III. Prophecy
As the sun was going down, Abram fell into a deep sleep (Genesis 15:12). Abram was under the power of God, for he received a wonderful vision and a threefold prophecy of the future:
1. Bondage in Egypt. “An horror of great darkness fell upon him.” The great darkness that
descended upon Abram pointed to the darkness that would befall his posterity when the Egyptians enslaved them. “Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years” (Genesis 15:13).
2. The Exodus. The Lord revealed the Israelite’s exodus from Egypt: “Afterward shall they
come out with great substance” (Genesis 15:14).
3. Possession of Canaan. “But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again”
(Genesis 15:16). God revealed several hundred years of history concerning Abram’s posterity before he had a child!
IV. Abram’s Vision
“And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces” (Genesis 15:17). Here we have two figures that describe the path by which the Lord led Abram’s posterity.
1. A Smoking Furnace. This part of Abram’s vision prefigured the sufferings and trials
though which the Lord would lead Israel. “I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction” (Isaiah 48:10). The first great affliction they passed through was the Egyptian bondage. “But the LORD hath . . . brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt” (Deuteronomy 4:20). They later suffered captivity in Babylon and were dispersed among the nations.
2. A Burning Lamp. Through all these trials, God promised to be with them as a burning
lamp to comfort and to deliver them. When Nebuchadnezzar cast the three young Hebrew men into the fiery furnace, the onlookers saw someone else beside them in the angry flames—they saw someone who looked like the “Son of God.”
This verse is an example for the church. Those who will be heirs of God must have fellowship with Christ in His suffering. “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake” (Philippians 1:29). Nevertheless, we can rejoice in these trials, knowing He will never abandon us (Hebrews 13:5). Through trials, God purifies His people and prepares them for His appearing. “Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried . . . and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand” (Daniel 12:10). Furthermore, Romans 8:17-18 says, “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”
Our faith must be “tried with fire” (I Peter 1:7). Moreover, Peter exhorted us, “Think it not
strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you” (I Peter 4:12). “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far moreexceeding and eternal weight of glory” (II Corinthians 4:17).
Again, the church, like Israel, need not fear the fiery furnace, for God has promised to be very near—yes, to dwell with those who suffer for Him. (See Hebrews 13:5-6.) The Holy Ghost will dwell within the Spirit-filled believer as fire, consuming all the dross in him (Matthew 3:11). It is the indwelling fire of God’s Holy Spirit that enables the child of God to pass through the furnace of affliction unharmed and without the slightest smell of smoke on his garments. God’s intention is to soften and melt our hearts, but without this burning lamp within our hearts, these same experiences, which were intended to draw us near our Savior, will harden us instead.
I'm bumping this for myself so I will be sure and remember to read through it tomorrow.
Thanks Bro...
Seascapes
04-07-2011, 05:51 AM
Thanks Sam, enjoyed reading the lessons 32 and 33, it would be nice to have all of them. Good reading.
LUKE2447
04-07-2011, 06:31 AM
All of this happened with Abraham as a result of him asking God how would he know he would receive the inheritance God promised him.
Genesis 15:5-8 KJV And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (7) And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. (8) And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
So the cutting of the animals and the fire coming down was all part of showing Abraham proof of his inheritance. In other words, GOD SWORE AN OATH AND CUT A COVENANT to establish the promise. He proved it by cutting a covenant.
Notice that fowls came down to devour the sacrifices while Abraham waited for the "proof".
Gene 15:11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
Sounds like the SEED OF THE WORD that fowls came to devour as the devil seeks to steal the WORD out of our hearts when planted there by God, in the parable of the sower and the seed. In other words, the enemy was trying to steal away Abraham's WORD and promise from his heart before God could confirm it. But Abraham showed commitment to the covenant and did not allow the enemy to steal the WORD.
I can see God coming down Himself to MINGLE and UNITE himself to Abraham in a manner of speaking. The sacrifices Abraham gave represented Abraham. When a person offered a sacrifice for sins, that sacrifice stood as that person who should have died. The sacrifice stands in proxy of the offerer. So when God came down and cut the covenant, the picture is that God united with Abraham symbolically and they came into ONE by covenant.
Translate that to Jesus on the cross, and perhaps your thoughts about the two thieves shows something powerful! Phew! Notice the two thieves were both sinners and deserved death like us all. The soul who sins shall die. But one thief repented. Is that not like the whole world for whom Jesus died and united in sacrifice for? He died for all mankind and came into union by sacrifice for us all. Even for those who will not repent. But whether we repent, or do not, we all were like the thieves. And He cut the covenant between the thieves who stood for us. And we who repent will be in the kingdom by that death WITH Christ.
Notice Abraham did something... God asked him and he fulfilled then God did his part. :-)
mfblume
04-07-2011, 08:13 AM
Notice Abraham did something... God asked him and he fulfilled then God did his part. :-)
Amen, we absolutely have to do our part. But we must also remember he was righteous before he did anything. :)
Scott Hutchinson
04-07-2011, 08:18 AM
Abraham believed in The Lord and it counted unto him for righteousness.
Scott Hutchinson
04-07-2011, 08:21 AM
I don't believe in OSAS,however considering the mistakes that Abraham made ,such as lying about his wife getting with Hagar and such,anyways did God consider Abraham unrighteous when he did these things and too,did God take Abraham's call away from him in these moments ?
LUKE2447
04-07-2011, 09:34 AM
Amen, we absolutely have to do our part. But we must also remember he was righteous before he did anything. :)
Yes he just left his land in obedience to the context of God's Word. He was already considered right of heart.
LUKE2447
04-07-2011, 09:39 AM
Abraham believed in The Lord and it counted unto him for righteousness.
Believed according to Paul and James is about his life no a single point.
Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
you cannot have something fulfilled in th mind of a writer unless he had it in mind in the word "believed" just as Paul referenced the long period of time before circumcision.
LUKE2447
04-07-2011, 09:41 AM
Amen, we absolutely have to do our part. But we must also remember he was righteous before he did anything. :)
Also my point is God asked him to do something to come realize the covenant. Which in part I am pointing to baptism. Just as Moses did something to confirm the covenant.
pelathais
04-07-2011, 10:00 AM
Amen, we absolutely have to do our part. But we must also remember he was righteous before he did anything. :)
:thumbsup
pelathais
04-07-2011, 10:23 AM
I don't believe in OSAS,however considering the mistakes that Abraham made ,such as lying about his wife getting with Hagar and such,anyways did God consider Abraham unrighteous when he did these things and too,did God take Abraham's call away from him in these moments ?
It was after the events involving Hagar (Genesis 16) that the Lord appeared again to Abraham and established the covenant of circumcision (Genesis 17).
I think that there is an important example in the life of Abraham for the believer and especially the new believer:
Genesis 15: Abram is declared righteous.
Genesis 16: The promises of God are threatened by Abraham's flesh.
Genesis 17: The covenant of circumcision is introduce and Abram receives a a new name.
God never "took back" the promises He had made to Abraham. Over the course of Abram/Abraham's life God did continue to renew the promises and to act in a way that actually appears to have been intended to bolster Abraham's faith.
houston
04-07-2011, 10:26 AM
Scott, the Bible says nothing about Sara getting with Hagar.
mfblume
04-07-2011, 10:31 AM
Scott, the Bible says nothing about Sara getting with Hagar.
I think he missed a comma there and meant: lying about his wife, getting with Hagar., etc, as a list of Abraham's errors.
mfblume
04-07-2011, 10:32 AM
It was after the events involving Hagar (Genesis 16) that the Lord appeared again to Abraham and established the covenant of circumcision (Genesis 17).
I think that there is an important example in the life of Abraham for the believer and especially the new believer:
Genesis 15: Abram is declared righteous.
Genesis 16: The promises of God are threatened by Abraham's flesh.
Genesis 17: The covenant of circumcision is introduce and Abram receives a a new name.
God never "took back" the promises He had made to Abraham. Over the course of Abram/Abraham's life God did continue to renew the promises and to act in a way that actually appears to have been intended to bolster Abraham's faith.
Amen and amen.
Pressing-On
04-07-2011, 10:40 AM
Notice Abraham did something... God asked him and he fulfilled then God did his part. :-)
Amen, we absolutely have to do our part. But we must also remember he was righteous before he did anything. :)
Genesis 15:1 "After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision..."
Genesis 15:5-6 "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
A lot of "things" happened, starting in chapter 12, when God told Abram to "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:" Genesis 12:1.
Chapter 15, IMO, is saying that, "after these things", God showed Abram a vision of the future and Abram believed God and he was counted as righteous for believing what God had showed him in the vision. I believe that because of all the "things" (events) leading up to the vision and how God showed Himself strong on Abram's behalf, that is how Abram could fully and completely believe the vision God had given him.
So, I don't think Abram was counted righteous "before" he did anything.
Scott Hutchinson
04-07-2011, 10:42 AM
I did miss a comma.I meant lying about his wife and getting with Hagar my bad.
Scott Hutchinson
04-07-2011, 10:42 AM
I think he missed a comma there and meant: lying about his wife, getting with Hagar., etc, as a list of Abraham's errors.
Thanks for being merciful.
Scott Hutchinson
04-07-2011, 10:43 AM
Scott, the Bible says nothing about Sara getting with Hagar.
I think you knew what I meant.
mfblume
04-07-2011, 02:43 PM
A lot of "things" happened, starting in chapter 12, when God told Abram to "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:" Genesis 12:1.
Chapter 15, IMO, is saying that, "after these things", God showed Abram a vision of the future and Abram believed God and he was counted as righteous for believing what God had showed him in the vision. I believe that because of all the "things" (events) leading up to the vision and how God showed Himself strong on Abram's behalf, that is how Abram could fully and completely believe the vision God had given him.
So, I don't think Abram was counted righteous "before" he did anything.
I believe the text relates that HIS FAITH was counted for righteousness, not anything he did. None of what he did counted for righteousness.
Pressing-On
04-07-2011, 03:38 PM
I believe the text relates that HIS FAITH was counted for righteousness, not anything he did. None of what he did counted for righteousness.
Yes, but it was related to his believing the vision of promise. I never noticed that before. Somehow, I had in mind that it was because he left Haran, but Gen 15 relates it to his believing God's promise concerning the vision.
I believe that is why he could take Issac up the mountain for a sacrifice. He knew that there was no way the vision could have been fulfilled if Issac was dead. He could say to the men, "Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.", and later to Issac, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:".
Now, even though, Genesis 15 never bears this out, Hebrews 11:19 says, "Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead;"
In other words, his FAITH was centered on that promise. If he had not obeyed and left Haran, in the first place, he wouldn't have come to the time of the vision and never would have been counted as righteous. So, I'm thinking, that his obedience played a part in his faith, which also caused him to be counted as righteous.
Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."
I don't think you can have faith without obedience.
mfblume
04-07-2011, 11:39 PM
Yes, but it was related to his believing the vision of promise. I never noticed that before. Somehow, I had in mind that it was because he left Haran, but Gen 15 relates it to his believing God's promise concerning the vision.
I believe that is why he could take Issac up the mountain for a sacrifice. He knew that there was no way the vision could have been fulfilled if Issac was dead. He could say to the men, "Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.", and later to Issac, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:".
Now, even though, Genesis 15 never bears this out, Hebrews 11:19 says, "Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead;"
In other words, his FAITH was centered on that promise. If he had not obeyed and left Haran, in the first place, he wouldn't have come to the time of the vision and never would have been counted as righteous. So, I'm thinking, that his obedience played a part in his faith, which also caused him to be counted as righteous.
Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."
I don't think you can have faith without obedience.
Faith comes before the obedience, though. In fact this is the whole basis of salvation. The cross did the work to make us righteous. Nothing we do can take us to heaven. It had to be what God did. And that is why Rom 4 says that God imputes righteousness without works. Doing something to be righteous is like lifting up ourselves off the ground by pulling up on our own boots. Righteousness is a GIFT that cannot be earned by doing anything. Gifts are not worked for. All you do is receive a gift or believe a promise.
I do not believe leaving Haran attributed to his faith. He had to have faith the leave Haran to begin with. It is the whole difference between GIFTS and EARNINGS.
LUKE2447
04-08-2011, 06:54 AM
Yes, but it was related to his believing the vision of promise. I never noticed that before. Somehow, I had in mind that it was because he left Haran, but Gen 15 relates it to his believing God's promise concerning the vision.
I believe that is why he could take Issac up the mountain for a sacrifice. He knew that there was no way the vision could have been fulfilled if Issac was dead. He could say to the men, "Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.", and later to Issac, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:".
Now, even though, Genesis 15 never bears this out, Hebrews 11:19 says, "Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead;"
In other words, his FAITH was centered on that promise. If he had not obeyed and left Haran, in the first place, he wouldn't have come to the time of the vision and never would have been counted as righteous. So, I'm thinking, that his obedience played a part in his faith, which also caused him to be counted as righteous.
Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."
I don't think you can have faith without obedience.
Pressing you are correct. The Reformed view does not take into account everything the scripture says. James cearly teaches as does Paul is was not about a mental assent but a working reliance of trust from the heart in his life that God "considered" righteous. Gd gives his consideration based upon our response. Thus God gives it BASED on us acting justly to his Word. James and Paul CLAERLY teach it simply wasn't a oh I believe. Faith has context and he did what God said. You cannot have a just faith response unless it is contextually responsive. God spoke in Gen 12 he responded and was considered just. What was faith simply believing in his heart it was true? Anyone can believe something is true but not want it or do it considering many other things involved. The context was to move and until he did so is was not just for God to consider it righteous. After he moved and followed God, God says basically this is what I want to do and he gave him the promise. Was Abraham already considered right of heart? Yes! That is why God does what he does.
Notice the text...
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, "Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir."
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: "This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir."
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
(NARRATIVE - The writer is explaining to the reader the result in total of Abraham's life within view. That he believed God unto the end. Reading the story everone already knows Abraham is considered right before God of heart. The writer is not simply saying in verse 6 like something NEW has happened and ABraham is SAAAAAAVED. That is simply poor exegesis. It s about how god does justice toward us. Not that Abraham was saved. LOL The writer is telling the whole result and Abraham's response to this message from God in his life. James clearly shows it as does Paul that believed is a view of his life not of simply one moment.)
Notice how the NET makes the thought process of God exactly to my point.
Gen 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD considered his response of faith as proof of genuine loyalty.
God is imputing his judgment or doing justice and considering the response not giving him something or imputing how many want to say it of something or some mystical infusion. God is simply doing his justice as we all do to those we say something to and expect a certain response in which we see as acceptable or not. God is simply judging the his response which was not DEAD or simply mental assent but living by reliance unto enduring even unto the end with Isaac per James.
Gen 15:7 And he said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess."
Notice it the writer goes right back to what God says. Though abraham did the work God says I brought you out.
Gen 15:8 But he said, "O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" (Notice Abraham asks God a question within the context of
This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir."
Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Take the he said out and put it in cnversation form and recognize immediately in the context Abraham does DO! Why?
O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" Abraham inquires of God's plan...
God...... Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Abraham's immediate response.
And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half. And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away. As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him.
Then the LORD said to Abram, "Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years.
Is this not a type of keeping your response pure before God and then God responding with consideration of heart? Yes! God speaks in a total different tone and perspective with a land covenant.
Gen 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,
Did Abraham have a immediate response to God and his promises? Yes he did! Thus "believed" per James and Paul has his immediate response following within view of...." he believed the Lord and he considered "it"(the context of what the believing was which was his lifes response) to him as righteous or just. Notice the context of what is believed is considered RIGHT not something given to him as righteous but God considering his response righteous. God does justice to Abraham's justice.
mfblume
04-08-2011, 08:03 AM
True righteousness will obey and act. It is like getting back into RIGHT positioning with God and a legal citizen of the Kingdom. It is the state of a heart that is where it should be with God. But God gives that to us as a gift. The any righteousness acquired by human effort and goodness is self-righteousness and is filthy rags and an affront against God. Keep it as a GIFT. GIFTS are not earned through effort or work. Anything else is false doctrine.
Romans 5 teaches that as Adam's actions threw man into sin, Christ's actions makes man righteous. What did we do to become unrighteous? Nothing. Adam did the work. By the same token Jesus did the work to make us righteous.
LUKE2447
04-08-2011, 08:42 AM
True righteousness will obey and act. It is like getting back into RIGHT positioning with God and a legal citizen of the Kingdom. It is the state of a heart that is where it should be with God. But God gives that to us as a gift. The any righteousness acquired by human effort and goodness is self-righteousness and is filthy rags and an affront against God. Keep it as a GIFT. GIFTS are not earned through effort or work. Anything else is false doctrine.
Way to abuse nd misuse a verse. You lack proper context and the context you used is false. Ezekial 18 repentance which = garment of righteousness is lost and Rev speak exactly concerning garment become defiled. You improperly make "works" mean any instead of contextual response to God's Word there is a difference.
Romans 5 teaches that as Adam's actions threw man into sin, Christ's actions makes man righteous. What did we do to become unrighteous? Nothing. Adam did the work. By the same token Jesus did the work to make us righteous.
Your context of justification/righteous consideration and what paul and James said do not match up and is very limited to the whole of what i said. So all are righteous now without a proper response? Again. Adam fell because he did something as we all do. Jesus was righteous because he did. We receive Christ's justice toward us to forgive and empower because of our faithful response to his Word from the heart. Just like he did and Abraham did. Cornelius and his house where God fearers and God considered them right of heart before Peter even showed up. They needed to hear the gospel to receive covenant. Peter speak, their hearts had faith already in God and now the message. God bears witness to them of the gentiles to be included and Peter Baptizes them immediately as he sees it as Gods express desire for them to be included in covenant. Baptism is God's place not ours. We are his message at baptism thus the response is still necessary just like Abraham in Gen 15 and bringing God his desire for covenant and also Gen 17 God requiring also. Faith is contextual to the message and demands a response of YOUR consideration of trust or not to his call.
LUKE2447
04-08-2011, 08:55 AM
True righteousness will obey and act.
also in several areas this is skewed. it is circular in presentment. Righteousness IS doing/responding. Rgheousness "WILL" obey and act? Your usage demands the question. What do you mean by "true righteousness". Is true righteousness synonymous with belief?
I can truly believe something. It doe not mean obey and act. Many will kow christ believe his message but they will love the pleasure of the flesh more than God. Does that mean they did not have true belief? No! The problem is righteousness = justice. Thus IT is something considered. Now if you a using "righteousness" as a forensic term of position. THen I still have to disagree. BEcause your position is based upon God's consideration of you current response in context to what he has given you. So it directly is not a "will" which is future tense. I may be just in position have turned to him I does not mean I am faithful to his next charge which is "will." YEs if a person is right of heart they will do but that does argue against any points I have made concerning God's consideration and how his justice works. As you heart is judged and that is how his justice and consideration of rigteous or lawless of heart is done toward you. You cannot receive without such judgment.
mfblume
04-08-2011, 09:13 AM
Your context of justification/righteous consideration and what paul and James said do not match up and is very limited to the whole of what i said.
James spoke of the CLAIMS we make whereas Paul spoke of our relationship with God. It is flatly related in the bible that self effort to attain righteousness is self-righteousness. It includes ONLY the need for our hearts to be of the sort that will follow God. It is not easy believism. It is a heart that has the faith THAT WILL OBEY that God makes righteous. Anything further than that is legalism and self-righteousness.
So all are righteous now without a proper response?
We are righteous without any response, but the heart WILL RESPONSE correctly if God has made one righteous. We cannot make it out to be a response that makes us righteous. The only response we require is a heart that SUBMITS to the will of God. But I do not even call that a response in the sense of works.
Again. Adam fell because he did something as we all do. Jesus was righteous because he did. We receive Christ's justice toward us to forgive and empower because of our faithful response to his Word from the heart.
That is not earning righteousness though, which is what I was focusing upon. As someone else already told you, the WORKS we are speaking about which we claim do not make us righteous are in the context of the self effort people exert to be good enough to earn what it takes to be saved. THAT is the salvation by WORKS that we are referring to. DO not think we are implying there is no response FROM THE HEART when we say there is no works we can exert that can save us. Responses from the heart are not the works that we are speaking against.
Abraham exerted the FAITH and heart "function" that was obedient to God in submitting to His will and His Lordhsip.
Just like he did and Abraham did. Cornelius and his house where God fearers and God considered them right of heart before Peter even showed up. They needed to hear the gospel to receive covenant.
Right! But why equate that with words I speak saying we cannot earn righteousness?
Peter speak, their hearts had faith already in God and now the message. God bears witness to them of the gentiles to be included and Peter Baptizes them immediately as he sees it as Gods express desire for them to be included in covenant. Baptism is God's place not ours. We are his message at baptism thus the response is still necessary just like Abraham in Gen 15 and bringing God his desire for covenant and also Gen 17 God requiring also. Faith is contextual to the message and demands a response of YOUR consideration of trust or not to his call.
Baptism did not make them righteous. It was a natural reaction to a heart that submits to God's will and Lordship since it is a heart of obedience and faith that moves God to make us righteous. But that occurs before the obedience by way of outward actions actually occur.
mfblume
04-08-2011, 09:18 AM
also in several areas this is skewed. it is circular in presentment. Righteousness IS doing/responding.
No. Righteousness is a state of the heart before God.
Rgheousness "WILL" obey and act? Your usage demands the question. What do you mean by "true righteousness". Is true righteousness synonymous with belief?
Righteousness is RIGHT STANDING with God. It is not action.
I can truly believe something. It doe not mean obey and act. Correct!
But to believe to the extent that YOU WILL DO NOTHING BUT OBEY AND ACT IN FUTURE TENSE to whatever God wills is what I mean by TRUE belief.
Many will kow christ believe his message but they will love the pleasure of the flesh more than God. Does that mean they did not have true belief? No! The problem is righteousness = justice. Thus IT is something considered.
Are you the same person as THE LEGALIST?
Anyway, Righteousness does not equal justice in the sense it is used in scripture. It is right standing with God. That is why Paul said that simply being IN ADAM means we die, but in Christ we are made alive.
Now if you a using "righteousness" as a forensic term of position. THen I still have to disagree.
The term of position is exactly what it is used as in the bible. Otherwise IT IS NOT A GIFT. GIFTING does not enter into it if it is not positional.
BEcause your position is based upon God's consideration of you current response in context to what he has given you.
But ONLY the response of the heart that shows God such a person WILL DO outward actions as a result.
So it directly is not a "will" which is future tense.
I think you err by repeatedly thinking the action of the HEART is the same thing as outward acts of obedience, when it is not.
I may be just in position have turned to him I does not mean I am faithful to his next charge which is "will."
I disagree. When I refer to turning to God, I also imply one will be faithful, or else one has NOT turned the way God wanted.
LUKE2447
04-08-2011, 09:40 AM
James spoke of the CLAIMS
nope.. he is speaking of a argument against not what we claim before people. His example of Abraham is about God's judgment not mans.
we make whereas Paul spoke of our relationship with God.
sorry but Paul and James speak of the same thing. Only James is getting technical argument about how justice is done. Paul is simply speaking of abraham was right before God before circumcision. Not because he was not considered right beforeGen 15:6 or that Gen 15:6 speaks is one moment WHICH CLEARLY THEY SAY IT IS NOT!
It is flatly related in the bible that self effort to attain righteousness is self-righteousness.
REsponse to God's Word is not self righteousness.
It includes ONLY the need for our hearts to be of the sort that will follow God. It is not easy believism. It is a heart that has the faith THAT WILL OBEY that God makes righteous.
He makes us righteous by his leading which cleanses us. Same as in the OT to the NT. Repentance which is a change of response toward God's Word makes God consider a person righteous of heart. He considers them and he cleanses them of their sin. You cannot recieve unless you respond righteously.
Anything further than that is legalism and self-righteousness.
yeah responding in context to God's Word and God considering you righteous is "self" righteousness. :spit
We are righteous without any response, but the heart WILL RESPONSE correctly if God has made one righteous.
LOL I hope you are not teaching regeneration before faith. As you are making a person righteous before he even believes. That is Calvinist as you can get.
We cannot make it out to be a response that makes us righteous.
Again I think you are confusingto different things.
God cleanses us because of our response. MY response in itself does not cleanse me God does BUT without my response I cannot b considered right before him to cleanse. God gives grace to the humble not the pride of heart and love of self more than him.
The only response we require is a heart that SUBMITS to the will of God. But I do not even call that a response in the sense of works.
uh His WILL is contextual. God judges your submission which IS righteousness/or justice that you do toward God's Word.
That is not earning righteousness though, which is what I was focusing upon. As someone else already told you, the WORKS we are speaking about which we claim do not make us righteous are in the context of the self effort people exert to be good enough to earn what it takes to be saved. THAT is the salvation by WORKS that we are referring to. DO not think we are implying there is no response FROM THE HEART when we say there is no works we can exert that can save us. Responses from the heart are not the works that we are speaking against.
I know but see the problem is your language DOES NOT REFLECT the overall meaning. You live and many other live in blanket terms that are not defining when YOU KNOW it is confusing. Also how you use righteousness is very subjective. It does not deal with is the it's pure term of justice toward. This a technical issue do to very poor ability of the english word "righteousness" to bring about the meaning of dikaios word group.
Abraham exerted the FAITH and heart "function" that was obedient to God in submitting to His will and His Lordhsip.
yep and it was judged immediately as so in the context. Also as I have said is about a whole of time not a single moment.
Right! But why equate that with words I speak saying we cannot earn righteousness?
We cannot obtain God's justice toward us? LOL READ! God does justice toward us. That is obtaining it by following him. We don't earn it by our OWN knowledge and doing but by following HIM.
Gen 15:6 Abram believed20 the LORD, and the LORD21 considered his response of faith22 as proof of genuine loyalty.23
God does justice TO us because of WHAT WE DO! Does Abraham not receiveGod's justice toward him in
Gen 26:4 I will multiply your descendants so they will be as numerous as the stars in the sky, and I will give them10 all these lands. All the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using the name of your descendants.11
Gen 26:5 All this will come to pass12 because Abraham obeyed me13 and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."14
This totaly relates to Gen 15:6 in which Abraham is called FAITHFUL or RIGHTEOUS! God just didn't not give it he obtained it by OBEDIENCE or proper response. God JUDGED HIM and if ABraham was JUST toward him! Just like he does us. As Abraham received a promise so do we and we obtain his justice to receive IF like ABRAHAM we are found FAITHFUL or OBEDIENT. Which the bible clearly teaches we are judged according to our works JUST LIKE ABRAHAM!
Baptism did not make them righteous.
You are grouping to many aspects. Baptism did make then in right standing by briging them into COVENANT. Yet they where already righteou of heart. God speaks to us. We either do justice toward HIS WORD or not. If we do God does JUSTICE toward us according to the context of his Word. Thus you have to aspect of being righteous and being declared right and receiving a postion of righteousness.
It was a natural reaction to a heart that submits to God's will and Lordship since it is a heart of obedience and faith that moves God to make us righteous.
that is covenant standing and peace with God.
But that occurs before the obedience by way of outward actions actually occur.
He judges our heart right on not to receive. Because a person is considered "right of heart" or "just" before God does not mean he has received the covenant standing and new birth unto salvtion. He must have that before he comes and offers himself to GOd as Matt 5:23 points out.
Scott Hutchinson
04-08-2011, 09:48 AM
I'm not the brighest bulb on the string, but if my understanding is correct faith without works is dead.But one must have faith first and then works will follow.
True faith produces obedience.If our works are not faith based or faith motivated,then I would think they are dead works.
LUKE2447
04-08-2011, 09:49 AM
Out for the weekend. Have a great day.
Scott Hutchinson
04-08-2011, 09:54 AM
Out for the weekend. Have a great day.
You too.
Pressing-On
04-08-2011, 10:00 AM
Pressing you are correct. The Reformed view does not take into account everything the scripture says. James cearly teaches as does Paul is was not about a mental assent but a working reliance of trust from the heart in his life that God "considered" righteous. Gd gives his consideration based upon our response. Thus God gives it BASED on us acting justly to his Word. James and Paul CLAERLY teach it simply wasn't a oh I believe. Faith has context and he did what God said. You cannot have a just faith response unless it is contextually responsive. God spoke in Gen 12 he responded and was considered just. What was faith simply believing in his heart it was true? Anyone can believe something is true but not want it or do it considering many other things involved. The context was to move and until he did so is was not just for God to consider it righteous. After he moved and followed God, God says basically this is what I want to do and he gave him the promise. Was Abraham already considered right of heart? Yes! That is why God does what he does.
Notice the text...
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, "Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir."
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: "This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir."
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
(NARRATIVE - The writer is explaining to the reader the result in total of Abraham's life within view. That he believed God unto the end. Reading the story everyone already knows Abraham is considered right before God of heart. The writer is not simply saying in verse 6 like something NEW has happened and Abraham is SAAAAAAVED. That is simply poor exegesis. It s about how God does justice toward us. Not that Abraham was saved. LOL The writer is telling the whole result and Abraham's response to this message from God in his life. James clearly shows it as does Paul that believed is a view of his life not of simply one moment.)
Notice how the NET makes the thought process of God exactly to my point.
Gen 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD considered his response of faith as proof of genuine loyalty.
God is imputing his judgment or doing justice and considering the response not giving him something or imputing how many want to say it of something or some mystical infusion. God is simply doing his justice as we all do to those we say something to and expect a certain response in which we see as acceptable or not. God is simply judging his response which was not DEAD or simply mental assent but living by reliance unto enduring even unto the end with Isaac per James.
Gen 15:7 And he said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess."
Notice it the writer goes right back to what God says. Though Abraham did the work God says I brought you out.
Gen 15:8 But he said, "O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" (Notice Abraham asks God a question within the context of
This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir."
Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Take the he said out and put it in conversation form and recognize immediately in the context Abraham does DO! Why?
O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" Abraham inquires of God's plan...
God...... Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Abraham's immediate response.
And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half. And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away. As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him.
Then the LORD said to Abram, "Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years.
Is this not a type of keeping your response pure before God and then God responding with consideration of heart? Yes! God speaks in a total different tone and perspective with a land covenant.
Gen 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,
Did Abraham have a immediate response to God and his promises? Yes he did! Thus "believed" per James and Paul has his immediate response following within view of...." he believed the Lord and he considered "it"(the context of what the believing was which was his lifes response) to him as righteous or just. Notice the context of what is believed is considered RIGHT not something given to him as righteous but God considering his response righteous. God does justice to Abraham's justice.
Yes, good post! I agree with mfBlume that our faith comes before obedience. It is simply because it is given from God - ..."according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." (Romans 12:3)
But, IMO, Abram's faith would have stood for nothing if he had not acted upon it.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Notice we are not rewarded by our faith alone, but our faith coupled with our diligence in seeking Him.
"By faith Abel offered..."
"Enoch was translated", because he had a testimony that he pleased God.
"By faith, Noah prepared an ark."
"By faith Abram obeyed."
"By faith Issac blessed Jacob and Esau"
"By faith Jacob blessed the sons of Joseph"
"By faith Moses refused to be called the son of Pharoah."
"By faith Rahab hid the spies."
True faith is always coupled with action/obedience.
mfblume
04-08-2011, 10:01 AM
nope.. he is speaking of a argument against not what we claim before people. His example of Abraham is about God's judgment not mans.
Offkey. Abraham had FRUITS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which were his obedient acts. But Genesis shows righteousness given in a moment, not over time. Saving faith is active. It is absolutely contradictory to say righteousness is a gift if there are actions required to earn it.
sorry but Paul and James speak of the same thing. Only James is getting technical argument about how justice is done. Paul is simply speaking of abraham was right before God before circumcision. Not because he was not considered right beforeGen 15:6 or that Gen 15:6 speaks is one moment WHICH CLEARLY THEY SAY IT IS NOT!
The only act Abraham exerted was in the heart and mind which moved God to deem him righteous. That is the context of Gen 15:6. It was indeed done in a moment. Nothing done beforehand was considered in the context. The context LIMITS the faith and belief of Abraham to the statement in verse 5 that God spoke to him. It is severely adding to the Word to claim walking from Haran and other deeds were part of Abraham's belief.
Genesis 15:1-6 KJV After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. (2) And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? (3) And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. (4) And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. (5) And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
What is the context of what Abraham believed? It was the words God spoke in verses 1-5. We do not read Abram left Haran and obeyed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. Nothing about Abram's departure consciously on his part involved the words of verses 1-5. And the words of verses 1-5 are the only thing verse 6 refers to as what Abram believed.
REsponse to God's Word is not self righteousness.
Response of the heart and mind is not self righteousness. But thinking one is not righteous when one's heart and mind respond in submission to God's will and Lordship until one actually does a physical deed of obedience is rife with error.
He makes us righteous by his leading which cleanses us. [.quote]
That is not the context of Gen 15:6. That is BEHAVING RIGHTEOUSLY, but is in no way becoming righteous. You are classically putting he cart before the horse.
Same as in the OT to the NT. Repentance which is a change of response toward God's Word makes God consider a person righteous of heart. He considers them and he cleanses them of their sin. You cannot recieve unless you respond righteously.
Right, but a response of the heart and mind is a far cry from a response of physically walking from Haran.
yeah responding in context to God's Word and God considering you righteous is "self" righteousness. :spit
You speak circular here.
[quote]We are righteous without any response, but the heart WILL RESPONSE correctly if God has made one righteous.
LOL I hope you are not teaching regeneration before faith. As you are making a person righteous before he even believes. That is Calvinist as you can get.
How in the world can you see regeneration before faith in my words?
Again I think you are confusingto different things.
God cleanses us because of our response. MY response in itself does not cleanse me God does BUT without my response I cannot b considered right before him to cleanse. God gives grace to the humble not the pride of heart and love of self more than him.
I agree with that. But the response is not like walking from Haran. It is a response of the mind and heart ALONE! It is a full and resounding YES to all that God is about with us.
uh His WILL is contextual. God judges your submission which IS righteousness/or justice that you do toward God's Word.
But only the submission in the heart before an action of submission is done physically.
I know but see the problem is your language DOES NOT REFLECT the overall meaning.
I cannot see why it does not.
You live and many other live in blanket terms that are not defining when YOU KNOW it is confusing. Also how you use righteousness is very subjective. It does not deal with is the it's pure term of justice toward. This a technical issue do to very poor ability of the english word "righteousness" to bring about the meaning of dikaios word group.
yep and it was judged immediately as so in the context. Also as I have said is about a whole of time not a single moment.
[quote]Right! But why equate that with words I speak saying we cannot earn righteousness?
We cannot obtain God's justice toward us? LOL READ! God does justice toward us.
You are being circular again in saying righteousness means justice just because you say so.
That is obtaining it by following him. We don't earn it by our OWN knowledge and doing but by following HIM.
Following God ONLY IN HEART AND MIND, yes. But not walking from Haran.
Gen 15:6 Abram believed20 the LORD, and the LORD21 considered his response of faith22 as proof of genuine loyalty.23
God does justice TO us because of WHAT WE DO! Does Abraham not receiveGod's justice toward him in
You are missing this if you think justice is the issue. It is not. It is right standing.
Gen 26:4 I will multiply your descendants so they will be as numerous as the stars in the sky, and I will give them10 all these lands. All the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using the name of your descendants.11
Gen 26:5 All this will come to pass12 because Abraham obeyed me13 and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."14
This totaly relates to Gen 15:6 in which Abraham is called FAITHFUL or RIGHTEOUS!
Not in the way you say it, though. The context of Gen 15:1-5 ALONE is what shows the element Abram believed. And his belief IN THOSE WORDS OF GOD ALONE are what God referred to as cause to make him righteous. His obedience is not what made him righteous, and righteousness is not an issue in the verses you quote, although related to it as righteousness being the root cause for Abraham's acts of obedience.
God just didn't not give it he obtained it by OBEDIENCE or proper response.
Only as far as response in heart and mind ALONE before Abraham acted.
God JUDGED HIM and if Abraham was JUST toward him! Just like he does us.
Your emphasis on justice is missing the mark.
mfblume
04-08-2011, 10:02 AM
Yes, good post! I agree with mfBlume that our faith comes before obedience. It is simply because it is given from God - ..."according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." (Romans 12:3)
But, IMO, Abram's faith would have stood for nothing if he had not acted upon it.
God knew before he acted if his faith was the sort that would act, though. Having to SEE an action is not required by God who knows beforehand if the faith WILL WORK.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Notice we are not rewarded by our faith alone, but our faith coupled with our diligence in seeking Him.
"By faith Abel offered..."
That is because TRUE FAITH WILL WORK. But the work does not have to occur before God sees the faith that will work and deem one righteous.
Pressing-On
04-08-2011, 11:50 AM
God knew before he acted if his faith was the sort that would act, though. Having to SEE an action is not required by God who knows beforehand if the faith WILL WORK.
That is because TRUE FAITH WILL WORK. But the work does not have to occur before God sees the faith that will work and deem one righteous.
That seems to lean toward predestination.
I also believe that Abraham's righteousness was a view of his life and not a single moment. I saw that when I re-read Genesis 15. After all of the events that happened leading up to the vision of the stars in the sky, the Word says, "And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness." (Gen. 15:6) He is never called righteousness before this vision of promise occurred.
When you read Romans 4, it is talking, specifically, about the promise that Abraham believed in. His faith and obedience brought him to that understanding and he was counted as righteous for it. We try to separate the two - faith and obedience - but they ride so close together, IMO, you just can't separate them.
It seems we are trying to divide or compartmentalize things like we do the process of salvation - steps. IMO, it just can't be done.
pelathais
04-08-2011, 01:31 PM
Yes, good post! I agree with mfBlume that our faith comes before obedience. It is simply because it is given from God - ..."according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." (Romans 12:3)
But, IMO, Abram's faith would have stood for nothing if he had not acted upon it.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Notice we are not rewarded by our faith alone, but our faith coupled with our diligence in seeking Him.
"By faith Abel offered..."
...
True faith is always coupled with action/obedience.
Unless you die immediately in one of those hypothetical "on the way to be baptized" car wrecks.
pelathais
04-08-2011, 01:46 PM
That seems to lean toward predestination.
Don't forget, we are predestined (Ephesians 1:5-12).
See also:
Genesis 21:12-13; Exodus 9:16; Exodus 33:19; Deuteronomy 7:7-8; Deuteronomy 10:15; Deuteronomy 4:37; Deuteronomy 32:8; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 12:22; 1 Kings 12:15; 1 Kings 20:42; 2 Kings 19:25; 2 Chronicles 6:6; Psalm 33:12; Psalm 65:4; Psalm 78:67-68; Psalm 78:70-72; Psalm 105:17-22; Psalm 135:4; Proverbs 16:4; Isaiah 44:1-7; Jeremiah 1:4-5; Malachi 1:2-3; Matthew 11:25-26; Matthew 20:16; Matthew 20:23; Matthew 22:14; Matthew 24:22; Matthew 24:40-41; Matthew 25:34; Mark 13:20; Mark 13:22; Luke 4:25-27; Luke 8:10; Luke 10:20; Luke 17:34-36; Luke 18:7; Luke 22:22; John 6:37 - 39; John 6:44-45; John 15:16; John 15:19; John 17:2; John 17:6; John 17:9; John 21:23; Acts 1:7; Acts 2:23; Acts 2:39; Acts 2:47; Acts 3:18; Acts 4:28; Acts 13:48; Acts 17:26; Acts 22:14; Romans 1:6; Romans 8:28-30; Romans 8:33; Romans 9:7-33; Romans 11:5; Romans 11:7-8; 1 Corinthians 1:26-29; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Galatians 1:15; Ephesians 1:4-5; Ephesians 1:9-11; Ephesians 2:10; Ephesians 3:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Thessalonians 2:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:1-2; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; 2 Peter 1:10; Jude 1:4; Revelation 13:8.
Pressing-On
04-08-2011, 01:53 PM
Don't forget, we are predestined (Ephesians 1:5-12).
See also:
Genesis 21:12-13; Exodus 9:16; Exodus 33:19; Deuteronomy 7:7-8; Deuteronomy 10:15; Deuteronomy 4:37; Deuteronomy 32:8; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 12:22; 1 Kings 12:15; 1 Kings 20:42; 2 Kings 19:25; 2 Chronicles 6:6; Psalm 33:12; Psalm 65:4; Psalm 78:67-68; Psalm 78:70-72; Psalm 105:17-22; Psalm 135:4; Proverbs 16:4; Isaiah 44:1-7; Jeremiah 1:4-5; Malachi 1:2-3; Matthew 11:25-26; Matthew 20:16; Matthew 20:23; Matthew 22:14; Matthew 24:22; Matthew 24:40-41; Matthew 25:34; Mark 13:20; Mark 13:22; Luke 4:25-27; Luke 8:10; Luke 10:20; Luke 17:34-36; Luke 18:7; Luke 22:22; John 6:37 - 39; John 6:44-45; John 15:16; John 15:19; John 17:2; John 17:6; John 17:9; John 21:23; Acts 1:7; Acts 2:23; Acts 2:39; Acts 2:47; Acts 3:18; Acts 4:28; Acts 13:48; Acts 17:26; Acts 22:14; Romans 1:6; Romans 8:28-30; Romans 8:33; Romans 9:7-33; Romans 11:5; Romans 11:7-8; 1 Corinthians 1:26-29; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Galatians 1:15; Ephesians 1:4-5; Ephesians 1:9-11; Ephesians 2:10; Ephesians 3:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Thessalonians 2:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:1-2; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; 2 Peter 1:10; Jude 1:4; Revelation 13:8.
I was speaking of predestination sometimes leaning toward OSAS.
mfblume
04-08-2011, 02:15 PM
That seems to lean toward predestination.
It cannot lean towards predestination of the individual when God waits til He sees the faith that He knows WILL work in the future. If He deemed someone righteous before they responded in heart and mind, and CAUSED THEM to respond in heart and mind, then THAT would be Calvinism.
I also believe that Abraham's righteousness was a view of his life and not a single moment.
I strongly disagree. That seems to lean towards salvation by works. lol
Like I said, Gen 15:1-5 shows exactly what Abram heard and verse 6 says THAT ALONE was what Abram believed and that alone is what was attributed to his righteousness. I cannot see how anyone can disagree. Gen 15:6 says nothing about anything other than the truths of verses 1-5 that Abram believed and was thereby counted righteous.
I saw that when I re-read Genesis 15. After all of the events that happened leading up to the vision of the stars in the sky, the Word says, "And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness." (Gen. 15:6) He is never called righteousness before this vision of promise occurred.
But the promise in the vision ALONE is what God saw him believe in and counted it for righteousness to him. Nothing before that vision.
When you read Romans 4, it is talking, specifically, about the promise that Abraham believed in. His faith and obedience brought him to that understanding and he was counted as righteous for it.
Right. But it was the promise noted in Gen 15:1-5. Nothing else before or after.
We try to separate the two - faith and obedience - but they ride so close together, IMO, you just can't separate them.
You can only separate them in the fact that faith CAUSES those works because it is faith THAT WORKS, and the faith alone is what God counted for righteousness not the works. The works do not county for righteousness, though.
It seems we are trying to divide or compartmentalize things like we do the process of salvation - steps. IMO, it just can't be done.
The fact is that the bottom line is what God said. He did not say Abraham;s actions were counted for righteousness. If you cannot separate faith from works then why did not God say Abraham's faith and works counted for righteousness? Why only speak of the faith? God did not imply anything other than faith when he said faith. We know works will follow true faith and cannot but follow it. But still, works do not make us righteous. How more plain could God be than to inspire Paul to say God imputes righteousness without one's works in Romans 4?
Romans 4:2-6 KJV For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Luke 2447 tried inserting something to allow for justification by works, but Paul said what Paul said and anything else is distortion.
pelathais
04-08-2011, 03:32 PM
I was speaking of predestination sometimes leaning toward OSAS.
Those who are saved and persevere to the end would be considered to have been "once saved, always saved."
Pressing-On
04-08-2011, 03:55 PM
It cannot lean towards predestination of the individual when God waits til He sees the faith that He knows WILL work in the future. If He deemed someone righteous before they responded in heart and mind, and CAUSED THEM to respond in heart and mind, then THAT would be Calvinism.
I agree.
I strongly disagree. That seems to lean towards salvation by works. lol
You are calling obedience "works" in the same category as "works of the law"? I don't consider obedience a "work".
Like I said, Gen 15:1-5 shows exactly what Abram heard and verse 6 says THAT ALONE was what Abram believed and that alone is what was attributed to his righteousness. I cannot see how anyone can disagree. Gen 15:6 says nothing about anything other than the truths of verses 1-5 that Abram believed and was thereby counted righteous.
But the promise in the vision ALONE is what God saw him believe in and counted it for righteousness to him. Nothing before that vision.
Right. But it was the promise noted in Gen 15:1-5. Nothing else before or after.
So, would God have given him the fulfillment of that vision if he wasn't an obedient man?
You can only separate them in the fact that faith CAUSES those works because it is faith THAT WORKS, and the faith alone is what God counted for righteousness not the works. The works do not county for righteousness, though.
I don't consider obedience a work. You say that all that died under the Old Covenant were saved under the New Covenant because of their obedience. Would that be correct? So faith and obedience are synonymous.
The fact is that the bottom line is what God said. He did not say Abraham;s actions were counted for righteousness. If you cannot separate faith from works then why did not God say Abraham's faith and works counted for righteousness? Why only speak of the faith? God did not imply anything other than faith when he said faith. We know works will follow true faith and cannot but follow it. But still, works do not make us righteous. How more plain could God be than to inspire Paul to say God imputes righteousness without one's works in Romans 4?
Romans 4:2-6 KJV For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Luke 2447 tried inserting something to allow for justification by works, but Paul said what Paul said and anything else is distortion.
Again, I believe the passage is speaking of the works of the law. I am merely saying that Abram's faith alone did not make him righteous. He could have believed and done nothing and his faith would have stood for nothing.
How do you view this passage in Genesis 17 with Romans 4:2 as Abraham not being justified by works?
Genesis 17:10;14 "This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. (14) "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."
Bowas
04-08-2011, 07:48 PM
On one side of Jesus on the cross was a guilty unrepentant thief (Old, and he died) and on the other side, an equally guilty thief, but one that had repented and was forgiven (New, and he lived with Jesus).
Now I am thinking about something...
mfblume
04-09-2011, 10:04 AM
I agree.
You are calling obedience "works" in the same category as "works of the law"? I don't consider obedience a "work".
But what were works in the Old Testament? They were works of obedience. But the all important difference in obedient works of the law and the works of obedience in the New Testament is that THE OT works of obedience were done TO MAKE ONE RIGHTEOUS.
Galatians 3:12 KJV And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Notice the emphasis on DOING. Doing what? OBEYING LAW. Doing the obedient works that law commanded.
Paul quoted this reference:
Leviticus 18:5 KJV Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Notice how this contrasts with LIVING BY FAITH. Paul contrasted that by quoting another scripture saying, "The just shall LIVE BY FAITH," and implied that the statement of Moses was saying the just shall live by DOING.
Galatians 3:11-12 KJV But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. (12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
So both sets of works were works of obedience. But if that obedience makes one righteous, then that is considered salvation by works. However, the works of obedience under grace do not make us righteous, but are done BECAUSE we are already righteous. HUGE difference.
So when we consider works of obedience, it's not enough to ask if we must obey today in the church. Of course we must obey. But we must ask whether or not that obedience is intended to make us righteous as the Law proposed, or BECAUSE we are already righteous. See the difference?
So, would God have given him the fulfillment of that vision if he wasn't an obedient man?
Of course not. But we cannot overlook the fact that the submission in faith to that vision is what moved God to make Abram righteous, and nothing else that he did before or after. And again, God knows the kind of faith that will or will not obey Him. He does not have to see our works in order to know whether or not we had the dead or the living faith. We as human beings have too see that since we cannot discern the heart as God can. So looking for works to see if one's faith is living faith is intended for human beings to let them know one another. But God needs not that PROOF. He knows if the faith in you or men will work or not before we work.
I don't consider obedience a work.
Of course it is a work. It is the works that follow faith in the saying faith without works is dead. I think what you are actually trying to say is that obedience is not a work to make us righteous in the New Covenant as it was in the Old. Since we have heard SALVATION BY WORKS so much, we have considered WORKS to be synonymous with legalism, so we redefine the term OBEDIENCE in our minds to not mean WORKS. But it is not a problem to consider obedience to be works when we realize WORKS are not wrong, it's just whether or not those works make us righteous that determines the error.
You say that all that died under the Old Covenant were saved under the New Covenant because of their obedience. Would that be correct? So faith and obedience are synonymous.
No, that is not what I would say. There is a fine line here, which is hard to discern if a person does not realize works are fine, it's just the works to save ourselves by them is what is wrong. What I believe about the saints of old is that THEIR FAITH in the sacrifices is what saved them ONLY WHEN JESUS ACTUALLY MADE ATONEMENT. Their FAITH in the sacrifices WAS APPLIED TO CHRIST'S SACRIFICE when Christ actually died in time and space much later. So that means that if their obedience saved them under the old covenant BEFORE Jesus died, then they were saved by works of obedience, and that cannot occur. But because their FAITH was applied to CHRIST when Christ made atonement they were saved by faith as we are.
Again, I believe the passage is speaking of the works of the law. I am merely saying that Abram's faith alone did not make him righteous.
Sorry (ahem lol) but here is where I strongly have to disagree with you. I believe God totally meant FAITH ALONE made him righteous since THAT is what God said, nothing else. God never said FAITH PLUS something made him righteous. And God never caused him to have faith either,to ensure all know this is not Calvinism I am proposing.
He could have believed and done nothing and his faith would have stood for nothing.
But here's the kicker, sister. God KNOWS if the faith we have is the kind that WILL WORK OR NOT. He is God, after all! So that statement does not even fit, in my opinion.
How do you view this passage in Genesis 17 with Romans 4:2 as Abraham not being justified by works?
Genesis 17:10;14 "This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. (14) "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."
Abraham was clearly not justified by works as we know from Paul's words. Paul said IF HE WAS justified by works, then he could glory in himself. The point Paul is making is that God will not allow us to glory in ourselves, so therefore will not allow anyone to be justified by works.
Romans 3:26-27 KJV To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Notice Paul said that THE LAW OF FAITH allows no one to BOAST or GLORY in themselves.
Romans 4:5 KJV But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
FAITH is counted. Nothing else. FAITH. God did not add any words to attribute the reason for making him righteous aside from the note of his belief.
BUT.... THAT FAITH IS ONLY THE KIND OF FAITH THAT WILL WORK. If it does not work later, then it is not the kind of faith that justifies. Faith without works is dead, so it is USELESS faith. God is not talking about useless faith when he said Abram was justified by faith.
So, Israelites were cut off from the covenant due to lack of obedience just like us! Only, their covenant involved works that justify. Our's does not. Lack of OUR WORKS means the faith we had when we believed, that God saw was FAITH THAT WORKS, was lost. And we evolved to possess a DEAD faith in its place.
Pressing-On
04-11-2011, 03:21 PM
But what were works in the Old Testament? They were works of obedience. But the all important difference in obedient works of the law and the works of obedience in the New Testament is that THE OT works of obedience were done TO MAKE ONE RIGHTEOUS.
Galatians 3:12 KJV And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Notice the emphasis on DOING. Doing what? OBEYING LAW. Doing the obedient works that law commanded.
Paul quoted this reference:
Leviticus 18:5 KJV Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Notice how this contrasts with LIVING BY FAITH. Paul contrasted that by quoting another scripture saying, "The just shall LIVE BY FAITH," and implied that the statement of Moses was saying the just shall live by DOING.
Galatians 3:11-12 KJV But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. (12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
So both sets of works were works of obedience. But if that obedience makes one righteous, then that is considered salvation by works. However, the works of obedience under grace do not make us righteous, but are done BECAUSE we are already righteous. HUGE difference.
So when we consider works of obedience, it's not enough to ask if we must obey today in the church. Of course we must obey. But we must ask whether or not that obedience is intended to make us righteous as the Law proposed, or BECAUSE we are already righteous. See the difference?
Of course not. But we cannot overlook the fact that the submission in faith to that vision is what moved God to make Abram righteous, and nothing else that he did before or after. And again, God knows the kind of faith that will or will not obey Him. He does not have to see our works in order to know whether or not we had the dead or the living faith. We as human beings have too see that since we cannot discern the heart as God can. So looking for works to see if one's faith is living faith is intended for human beings to let them know one another. But God needs not that PROOF. He knows if the faith in you or men will work or not before we work.
Of course it is a work. It is the works that follow faith in the saying faith without works is dead. I think what you are actually trying to say is that obedience is not a work to make us righteous in the New Covenant as it was in the Old. Since we have heard SALVATION BY WORKS so much, we have considered WORKS to be synonymous with legalism, so we redefine the term OBEDIENCE in our minds to not mean WORKS. But it is not a problem to consider obedience to be works when we realize WORKS are not wrong, it's just whether or not those works make us righteous that determines the error.
No, that is not what I would say. There is a fine line here, which is hard to discern if a person does not realize works are fine, it's just the works to save ourselves by them is what is wrong. What I believe about the saints of old is that THEIR FAITH in the sacrifices is what saved them ONLY WHEN JESUS ACTUALLY MADE ATONEMENT. Their FAITH in the sacrifices WAS APPLIED TO CHRIST'S SACRIFICE when Christ actually died in time and space much later. So that means that if their obedience saved them under the old covenant BEFORE Jesus died, then they were saved by works of obedience, and that cannot occur. But because their FAITH was applied to CHRIST when Christ made atonement they were saved by faith as we are.
Sorry (ahem lol) but here is where I strongly have to disagree with you. I believe God totally meant FAITH ALONE made him righteous since THAT is what God said, nothing else. God never said FAITH PLUS something made him righteous. And God never caused him to have faith either,to ensure all know this is not Calvinism I am proposing.
But here's the kicker, sister. God KNOWS if the faith we have is the kind that WILL WORK OR NOT. He is God, after all! So that statement does not even fit, in my opinion.
Abraham was clearly not justified by works as we know from Paul's words. Paul said IF HE WAS justified by works, then he could glory in himself. The point Paul is making is that God will not allow us to glory in ourselves, so therefore will not allow anyone to be justified by works.
Romans 3:26-27 KJV To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Notice Paul said that THE LAW OF FAITH allows no one to BOAST or GLORY in themselves.
Romans 4:5 KJV But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
FAITH is counted. Nothing else. FAITH. God did not add any words to attribute the reason for making him righteous aside from the note of his belief.
BUT.... THAT FAITH IS ONLY THE KIND OF FAITH THAT WILL WORK. If it does not work later, then it is not the kind of faith that justifies. Faith without works is dead, so it is USELESS faith. God is not talking about useless faith when he said Abram was justified by faith.
So, Israelites were cut off from the covenant due to lack of obedience just like us! Only, their covenant involved works that justify. Our's does not. Lack of OUR WORKS means the faith we had when we believed, that God saw was FAITH THAT WORKS, was lost. And we evolved to possess a DEAD faith in its place.
I think what you are actually trying to say is that obedience is not a work to make us righteous in the New Covenant as it was in the Old. Since we have heard SALVATION BY WORKS so much, we have considered WORKS to be synonymous with legalism, so we redefine the term OBEDIENCE in our minds to not mean WORKS. But it is not a problem to consider obedience to be works when we realize WORKS are not wrong, it's just whether or not those works make us righteous that determines the error.
Yes, this is what I was trying to say.
You also said, "But we cannot overlook the fact that the submission in faith to that vision is what moved God to make Abram righteous..."
I think that is the same as Romans 4:12 "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Anyway, we mostly agree. I had some other questions, but my cousin drowned this weekend saving a child and so we are in rather a funk around here. Maybe I will drag this post up later. Pray for Michael's family. He is survived by his wife and two children.
mfblume
04-11-2011, 03:36 PM
Yes, this is what I was trying to say.
You also said, "But we cannot overlook the fact that the submission in faith to that vision is what moved God to make Abram righteous..."
I think that is the same as Romans 4:12 "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Right.
Anyway, we mostly agree. I had some other questions, but my cousin drowned this weekend saving a child and so we are in rather a funk around here. Maybe I will drag this post up later. Pray for Michael's family. He is survived by his wife and two children.
We will be praying. my oh my.
Austin
04-12-2011, 05:00 AM
Didn't Paul try to express that we follow Christ because we have been changed in our inner man. And now it is by nature not by obligation of the law. And because we have been changed into the nature and likeness of Jesus through the power of the Holy Ghost that now through this new nature and power of God the law is fulfilled by creating one new man out of two> And isn't it easy to simplify the foreknowledge of God by the scripture that God can call the thing that is not as through it were. Almost sounds like faith or the revelation of something which is not yet happened.
Thanks Sam, enjoyed reading the lessons 32 and 33, it would be nice to have all of them. Good reading.
I have the "updated" version in pdf format.
If you or anyone would like a copy, I can email it to you as an attachment.
Just pm me with an email address where you can receive it.
What I meant to say is, I have the updated version of the course in pdf format.
It is in two volumes.
Pressing-On
04-19-2011, 11:29 AM
Yes, this is what I was trying to say.
You also said, "But we cannot overlook the fact that the submission in faith to that vision is what moved God to make Abram righteous..."
I think that is the same as Romans 4:12 "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Right.
Yes, and on that note and the question I wanted to ask after reading Romans 4:20:
"Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God."
Amplified - "No unbelief or distrust made him waver (doubtingly question) concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong and was empowered by faith as he gave praise and glory to God,"
How was his faith "strengthened" and how did Abraham grow strong and become empowered by his faith if faith and obedience do not walk together?
Does mental assent become strengthened without interaction of some sort?
I am doing a drive-by post as I am going to log out and run some errands. Just wanted to post this while I had it on my mind.
mfblume
04-19-2011, 02:19 PM
Yes, and on that note and the question I wanted to ask after reading Romans 4:20:
"Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God."
Amplified - "No unbelief or distrust made him waver (doubtingly question) concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong and was empowered by faith as he gave praise and glory to God,"
How was his faith "strengthened" and how did Abraham grow strong and become empowered by his faith if faith and obedience do not walk together?
Does mental assent become strengthened without interaction of some sort?
I am doing a drive-by post as I am going to log out and run some errands. Just wanted to post this while I had it on my mind.
Being strong in faith is not accomplished by doing anything. Strong faith causes us to do more, as a result! Being strong in faith means he was convinced and nothing moved him away from that confidence.
All in all, again, Paul taught that Abrahams' FAITH ALONE in God's words about the vision are what granted him righteousness, not any walking from Ur or later circumcision.
Pressing-On
04-20-2011, 09:50 AM
Being strong in faith is not accomplished by doing anything. Strong faith causes us to do more, as a result! Being strong in faith means he was convinced and nothing moved him away from that confidence.
All in all, again, Paul taught that Abrahams' FAITH ALONE in God's words about the vision are what granted him righteousness, not any walking from Ur or later circumcision.
James 2 doesn't seem to agree that it is "faith alone".
James 2:21 "Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? (22) You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. (23) And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[a] and he was called God’s friend. (24) You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." (NIV)
How is that any different than Abraham walking in faith and walking out of Ur? (Romans 4:12) That is faith and obedience together.
I agree with Gill's notes on Hebrews 11:8. He calls it "obedience of faith" - "obeyed the divine call; and which was a fruit and evidence of his faith, and may he called the obedience of faith"
I believe there are two aspects to faith and repentance. Both are a "door" and an "acknowledgment" to begin with. Faith begins by focusing on who it is we are to believe in. Repentance ( II Cor 7:10) begins with the acknowledgment that we need to take a difference course in life. When you have genuine faith and repentance, you will immediately see a person exercising both - Faith in walking and repentance in confession of sins.
Abraham's faith put him in "right standing" or in a right relationship with God enabling him to enter into covenant. It seems that Romans 5 bears that out, (1) "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (2 )By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
Verse 5 brings in the infilling of the Holy Ghost, which was part of Peter's message on the Day of Pentecost. (5) And hope maketh not ashamed (confounded/disgraced); because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."
Didn't John call for '"fruits meet (deserving) for repentance"? (Matthew 3:8) If it was "faith alone", then why would he demand proof?
I simply believe the "works" being discussed concerning Abraham were "works of the law". Romans 4:13 "It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith."
Abraham lived a life of obedience without the law and I believe that is the point. Because he did do "works" as per James 2:21-24. In a nutshell, I don't believe you can separate obedience and faith.
mfblume
04-20-2011, 11:43 AM
Obedience and faith cannot be separated in one sense since true faith ALWAYS causes obedience. But the two CAN BE separated in ANOTHER SENSE when looking at CAUSE AND EFFECT. Faith is the CAUSE, and obedience is the EFFECT.
Again, OBEDIENT WORKS OF LAW are works done to BECOME righteous. OBEDIENT WORKS OF FAITH are CAUSED by our righteousness. We cannot have works of faith without having ALREADY been made righteous. If we are not careful, and I cannot emphasize this enough, we will think we have to DO something before we can be righteous. Again, all that was attributed to moving God to make Abraham righteous was HIS BELIEF in the VISION and what God said about. Not his obedient physical acts of any kind. This is the line between legalism and true grace.
JAMES is emphasizing WHAT A MAN SAYS. One's CLAIM is not justified until one proves it. And all this is based upon James speaking of SHOWING US people's faith. But God does not need to see anything other than the heart before He knows if we have the SAVING and righteous-imputing faith that we are concerned about. It is not faith alone in the sense that true faith WILL WORK. But it is faith alone when we are speaking about true faith. Otherwise it is dead faith. Again, it is the difference between CAUSE AND EFFECT.
Pressing-On
04-20-2011, 12:00 PM
Obedience and faith cannot be separated in one sense since true faith ALWAYS causes obedience. But the two CAN BE separated in ANOTHER SENSE when looking at CAUSE AND EFFECT. Faith is the CAUSE, and obedience is the EFFECT.
Again, OBEDIENT WORKS OF LAW are works done to BECOME righteous. OBEDIENT WORKS OF FAITH are CAUSED by our righteousness. We cannot have works of faith without having ALREADY been made righteous. If we are not careful, and I cannot emphasize this enough, we will think we have to DO something before we can be righteous. Again, all that was attributed to moving God to make Abraham righteous was HIS BELIEF in the VISION and what God said about. Not his obedient physical acts of any kind. This is the line between legalism and true grace.
I understand you here, although, that is not where I am coming from. On the same token, the "faith only" is being touted as finding salvation in easy believism and I don't espouse that. That is why some, as one example, have evolved into the teaching that you don't need to have the Holy Ghost to be saved, it's only for empowerment. That contradicts Romans 8:9. If we don't balance both thoughts, they will lead to error.
JAMES is emphasizing WHAT A MAN SAYS. One's CLAIM is not justified until one proves it. And all this is based upon James speaking of SHOWING US people's faith. But God does not need to see anything other than the heart before He knows if we have the SAVING and righteous-imputing faith that we are concerned about. It is not faith alone in the sense that true faith WILL WORK. But it is faith alone when we are speaking about true faith. Otherwise it is dead faith. Again, it is the difference between CAUSE AND EFFECT.
But you still can't have the cause without the effect. They accompany one another.
James comes to his point in 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
His point is that they could keep the law and offend in one point and be guilty of violating the whole law. (James 2:10) So a balance is to keep it and also live by it.
He brings us to the point that our faith and works are the same thing. You have to have both. (James 2:14)
mfblume
04-20-2011, 01:21 PM
I understand you here, although, that is not where I am coming from. On the same token, the "faith only" is being touted as finding salvation in easy believism and I don't espouse that. That is why some, as one example, have evolved into the teaching that you don't need to have the Holy Ghost to be saved, it's only for empowerment. That contradicts Romans 8:9. If we don't balance both thoughts, they will lead to error.
Right. Easy believism espouses dead faith., We need to realize that the faith the bible speaks of is not dead inactive faith but faith that causes good works. So saying faith alone in that context is correct.
But you still can't have the cause without the effect. They accompany one another.
But that does not change the fact as to what actually moves God to impute righteousness to us. There would not be a cause if there was no effect. However, that still does not mean we cannot separate the two as to what actually moves God to make us righteous.
James comes to his point in 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
His point is that they could keep the law and offend in one point and be guilty of violating the whole law. (James 2:10) So a balance is to keep it and also live by it.
Well, yes and no. We do not live by law nor do we keep law. But when the Spirit is leading us as we walk after the Spirit, it will inspire us to do the righteous things that law could never get anyone to do. But we did not consult law to make ourselves do it. Making ourselves do things is error, and it is one thing many apostolics never have come to know.
He brings us to the point that our faith and works are the same thing. You have to have both. (James 2:14)
But if we have the true faith, then the works will semi-automatically follow. Without those works there was no true faith.
Pressing-On
04-20-2011, 03:47 PM
Right. Easy believism espouses dead faith., We need to realize that the faith the bible speaks of is not dead inactive faith but faith that causes good works. So saying faith alone in that context is correct.
Agreed. There is so much beauty, depth and truth tied up in Acts 2:21. I'd hate to miss the whole point of that verse.
But that does not change the fact as to what actually moves God to impute righteousness to us. There would not be a cause if there was no effect. However, that still does not mean we cannot separate the two as to what actually moves God to make us righteous.
Yes, I can agree, because we must find and come through the "door". (John 10:1) Still, "effect" rides real close behind "cause". Just about on it's heels, so that I can still agree with Gill as it being "obedience of faith".
Well, yes and no. We do not live by law nor do we keep law. But when the Spirit is leading us as we walk after the Spirit, it will inspire us to do the righteous things that law could never get anyone to do. But we did not consult law to make ourselves do it. Making ourselves do things is error, and it is one thing many apostolics never have come to know.
My only point is that Romans and James probably reconcile on the law and faith by the example of - not the hearers but the doers of the law will be justified, (Romans 2:13). Faith without works is dead - same difference on both aspects, IMO.
But if we have the true faith, then the works will semi-automatically follow. Without those works there was no true faith.
Right, I agree. Although, semi-automatic makes me think of one of our guns. LOL!
Enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for the time. Heading out of town for a few days. God bless!
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