Onesie Twosie...

[Digging4Truth]

I've noticed something over the last few months as various Godhead discussions have taken place.

There are a lot of scriptures that are presented to show that Jesus is God versus Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. These scriptures are often followed by... See... they are one.

But I am constantly amazed that these "see they are one" scriptures are nearly always... if not always altogether... actually "See they are two" scriptures.

I will provide a few examples.

John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

I AND my Father. Yes it does state that they are one... but THEY = more than one. And there are many concepts of one if Christendom.

For example...
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

He prayed that WE... us... Christians... would be one as they are one. We are not one person. We are many. Jesus wasn't praying that we would become one person and a population of thousands would combine to become a population of one. He was praying that we would become one in thought... on in faith... one in doctrine etc.

One more example.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Now this one is pretty interesting because it doesn't do like most all of the other "onesie" scriptures and make statements like I and my father etc. This one says... if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Woah. That's pretty tight.

But... in context...

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Twosie

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

"my Fathers house"... Twosie)

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"no man comes to the Father but by me"...Twosie

Here he begins the specific part of the conversation that leads to verse 9
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

If you had known me... ye should have known MY Father also. He is stating that by knowing Him we do know the Father.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Again... really a Twosie even though this is the strongest onesie scripture out there. He didn't say... I am the Father. He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. This is not saying blatantly... I am the Father so context should help us later on. But Jesus had already stated in Verse 7 that we see and know the Father through him. We must all admit that this can mean several things. So we'll carry on in context and let the Bible interpret the Bible.


John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Twosie... Twosie... Twosie. I am IN the Father and the Father IN me... I speak not of MYSELF... but the FATHER that dwelleth IN me... HE does the works.

One cannot be IN itself. This isn't onesie language. This is Twosie language. Those little Russian dolls contains dolls that can be IN one another and they surely BECOME one... but each one is still separate.

John 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Twosie... Believe me that I am IN the Father...and the Father IN me.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I... me... one person... GO UNTO... My Father... Twosie. All day long.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Twosie in Spades.


So... I wonder.

Are there any verses out there that are used on a regular basis as onesie scriptures that are not actually, in the end, twosie scriptures?

[Hoovie]

What helps put this in perspective is understanding that while Jesus is indeed God as the Father is God, he did not claim to be God the Father. This distinction is crucial in understanding the Father/Son relationship.

What help me get better clarity was this (http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/ugstsymposium.htm) article.

[Digging4Truth]

What helps put this in perspective is understanding that while Jesus is indeed God as the Father is God, he did not claim to be God the Father. This distinction is crucial in understanding the Father/Son relationship.

What help me get better clarity was this (http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/ugstsymposium.htm) article.

I see in scripture that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. While scripture clearly lays out these two are one I find in Oneness Pentecostalism a right out fear of recognizing a distinction between that one, eternal, invisible God and that one temporal, visible manifestation.

Jesus seems to be saying this... to me at least.

I am the one eternal God manifest in the flesh. I am the express image of the one you worship. But don't worship me... the manifestation. Worship the eternal one.

It isn't this manifestation that does the works. It is the one I manifest.

The Bible even says that the sonship will one day end... for what purpose... so God can be all in all.

It's really semantics. But it's semantics that people fight like crazy.

I'm not as far off the beaten path as people think I am. I see all the things you mention. I've seen it all my life. I've been raised in this. I got the Holy Ghost in a UPC Church 39 years ago and I'm still attending one so that is all I have ever been taught. But I just think there is a distinction laid out in scripture.

To me... Jesus and the apostles say that he is the one eternal God manifest in flesh... but this flesh is not God. It is a manifestation... the express image of that God... but this flesh doesn't do the works... the Father does.

And that distinction is one that, for some reason, scare people senseless and I just can't understand why.

I'll check out the article...

[Praxeas]

I've noticed something over the last few months as various Godhead discussions have taken place.

There are a lot of scriptures that are presented to show that Jesus is God versus Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. These scriptures are often followed by... See... they are one.
I will take the first one since I am out of time just to point out the flaw in your point

"they" are more than one because THEY is plural.

In the first verse you have 2 somethings that are one something.

This verse then does not conclude "see? They are two"

It concludes the 2 are 1.

Oneness has always maintained a distinction between Father and Son.,..that means Oneness has always asserted 2...but 2 whats? 2 Persons or 2 manifestations that are 1 in some other way?

[Ev. Duane Williams]

I've noticed something over the last few months as various Godhead discussions have taken place.

There are a lot of scriptures that are presented to show that Jesus is God versus Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. These scriptures are often followed by... See... they are one.

But I am constantly amazed that these "see they are one" scriptures are nearly always... if not always altogether... actually "See they are two" scriptures.

I will provide a few examples.



I AND my Father. Yes it does state that they are one... but THEY = more than one. And there are many concepts of one if Christendom.

For example...


He prayed that WE... us... Christians... would be one as they are one. We are not one person. We are many. Jesus wasn't praying that we would become one person and a population of thousands would combine to become a population of one. He was praying that we would become one in thought... on in faith... one in doctrine etc.

One more example.



Now this one is pretty interesting because it doesn't do like most all of the other "onesie" scriptures and make statements like I and my father etc. This one says... if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Woah. That's pretty tight.

But... in context...



Twosie



"my Fathers house"... Twosie)



"no man comes to the Father but by me"...Twosie

Here he begins the specific part of the conversation that leads to verse 9


If you had known me... ye should have known MY Father also. He is stating that by knowing Him we do know the Father.



Again... really a Twosie even though this is the strongest onesie scripture out there. He didn't say... I am the Father. He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. This is not saying blatantly... I am the Father so context should help us later on. But Jesus had already stated in Verse 7 that we see and know the Father through him. We must all admit that this can mean several things. So we'll carry on in context and let the Bible interpret the Bible.




Twosie... Twosie... Twosie. I am IN the Father and the Father IN me... I speak not of MYSELF... but the FATHER that dwelleth IN me... HE does the works.

One cannot be IN itself. This isn't onesie language. This is Twosie language. Those little Russian dolls contains dolls that can be IN one another and they surely BECOME one... but each one is still separate.



Twosie... Believe me that I am IN the Father...and the Father IN me.



I... me... one person... GO UNTO... My Father... Twosie. All day long.



Twosie in Spades.


So... I wonder.

Are there any verses out there that are used on a regular basis as onesie scriptures that are not actually, in the end, twosie scriptures?

Anyone who understands the Truth of the Mighty God in Christ(onesie all the way) would have no trouble whatsoever with these questions. Unfortunately, many who claim to be "Oneness" don't understand the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God. I find this very prevalent in Appalachia, where they are rightly called "Jesus Only", I've heard things as outrageous as "At Jesus' Baptism, He threw His voice like a ventriloquist to make it sound like it came from Heaven." Or how about this "I'm tired of these pictures and movies portraying Jesus as this little skinny fellow. I don't know about you, but I serve a BIG God. Jesus must have been at least 6'4" and 250 lbs." I wish I was making this up, but I've heard this foolishness with my own ears. Among all of God's people, a little edum'acation would go a long way.

[jfrog]

Anyone who understands the Truth of the Mighty God in Christ(onesie all the way) would have no trouble whatsoever with these questions. Unfortunately, many who claim to be "Oneness" don't understand the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God. I find this very prevalent in Appalachia, where they are rightly called "Jesus Only", I've heard things as outrageous as "At Jesus' Baptism, He threw His voice like a ventriloquist to make it sound like it came from Heaven." Or how about this "I'm tired of these pictures and movies portraying Jesus as this little skinny fellow. I don't know about you, but I serve a BIG God. Jesus must have been at least 6'4" and 250 lbs." I wish I was making this up, but I've heard this foolishness with my own ears. Among all of God's people, a little edum'acation would go a long way.

Appalachia is a big place unless you are referring to the town.

[NorCal]

Oneness has never claimed that there is no Distinction between Father/Son/Spirit. That is where the "Jesus Only" slander tried to degrade us. But it comes from a Trinitarian point that can never understand the revelation (in an earthly sense) because they do not want to hear the truth. I believe we make that distinction in Creation/Redemption/Regeneration. Manifestations, Not Distinct, Separate, Co-Equal, Co-Eternal Persons; but distinct Masks/Roles of the same Person/Being.

[Praxeas]

Oneness has never claimed that there is no Distinction between Father/Son/Spirit. That is where the "Jesus Only" slander tried to degrade us. But it comes from a Trinitarian point that can never understand the revelation (in an earthly sense) because they do not want to hear the truth. I believe we make that distinction in Creation/Redemption/Regeneration. Manifestations, Not Distinct, Separate, Co-Equal, Co-Eternal Persons; but distinct Masks/Roles of the same Person/Being.
From my experience at CARM the confusion stems from us saying "Jesus is the Father, Son and HG"

They think we are saying "The Son is the Father and Holy Ghost"

[Norman]

What helps put this in perspective is understanding that while Jesus is indeed God as the Father is God, he did not claim to be God the Father. This distinction is crucial in understanding the Father/Son relationship.

You mean there is a God other than God the Father? I thought there was only one God.
Yes, there is a distinction between the Father and the Son, and it is incorrect to say God and Jesus are "one person;" God is not a person. Jesus is the only "person" in whom dwells the fulness of deity; Colossians 2:9-10.

[Michael The Disciple]

What helps put this in perspective is understanding that while Jesus is indeed God as the Father is God, he did not claim to be God the Father. This distinction is crucial in understanding the Father/Son relationship.

What help me get better clarity was this (http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/ugstsymposium.htm) article.

Jesus is indeed God as the Father is God but not God the Father? You have just echoed the same doctrine as the Trinitarians.

The God of the Old Testament was both the One God and the One Father.

2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? Malachi 2:10

If he was God he was The Father.

[Digging4Truth]

You mean there is a God other than God the Father? I thought there was only one God.
Yes, there is a distinction between the Father and the Son, and it is incorrect to say God and Jesus are "one person;" God is not a person. Jesus is the only "person" in whom dwells the fulness of deity; Colossians 2:9-10.

Agreed

[kclee4jc]

I will take the first one since I am out of time just to point out the flaw in your point

"they" are more than one because THEY is plural.

In the first verse you have 2 somethings that are one something.

This verse then does not conclude "see? They are two"

It concludes the 2 are 1.

Oneness has always maintained a distinction between Father and Son.,..that means Oneness has always asserted 2...but 2 whats? 2 Persons or 2 manifestations that are 1 in some other way?

This is truth. To say that the Father and the Son are the same is to imply that God is flesh (for the son is flesh). There is a deffinate distinction between father and son, yet not a distinction of personalities. It is really so simple. The Father was in the Son. The Spirit was in the Son. Father=Spirit and Son=Flesh. If you want come up with a numerical explanation then 2 substances within the Godhead would perhaps be accurate. Flesh and Spirit. But not two personalities! The fullness of the Godhead was in Jesus. God's name was, is, and always will be Jesus Christ. That is the mystery that is now revealed to the present day church. One God in One Person = Jesus Christ!

[Rose]

Anyone who understands the Truth of the Mighty God in Christ(onesie all the way) would have no trouble whatsoever with these questions. Unfortunately, many who claim to be "Oneness" don't understand the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God. I find this very prevalent in Appalachia, where they are rightly called "Jesus Only", I've heard things as outrageous as "At Jesus' Baptism, He threw His voice like a ventriloquist to make it sound like it came from Heaven." Or how about this "I'm tired of these pictures and movies portraying Jesus as this little skinny fellow. I don't know about you, but I serve a BIG God. Jesus must have been at least 6'4" and 250 lbs." I wish I was making this up, but I've heard this foolishness with my own ears. Among all of God's people, a little edum'acation would go a long way.

Having been raised and living in the Applachian region for many years... I thank God that we had a better understanding of the scriptures than you depict.

"Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only." :thumbsup

[Rose]

Anyone who understands the Truth of the Mighty God in Christ(onesie all the way) would have no trouble whatsoever with these questions. Unfortunately, many who claim to be "Oneness" don't understand the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God. I find this very prevalent in Appalachia, where they are rightly called "Jesus Only", I've heard things as outrageous as "At Jesus' Baptism, He threw His voice like a ventriloquist to make it sound like it came from Heaven." Or how about this "I'm tired of these pictures and movies portraying Jesus as this little skinny fellow. I don't know about you, but I serve a BIG God. Jesus must have been at least 6'4" and 250 lbs." I wish I was making this up, but I've heard this foolishness with my own ears. Among all of God's people, a little edum'acation would go a long way.

Having been raised and living in the Applachian region for many years... I thank God that we have a better understanding of the scriptures than you depict.

"Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only." :thumbsup

[Michael The Disciple]

There is some ridiculous "Oneness teaching" from the Northeast. Like Jesus is no longer the Son of God. Im not making this up.

Nonetheless it seems to me as I have said before much of the newer Oneness teaching seems more confusing and complicated than in the past. Do Oneness believers need a deeper understanding of God? Certainly. Yet it should be drawn from scripture itself rather than as if we are trying to answer the attacks of Trinitarian scholrs.

[Ev. Duane Williams]

Having been raised and living in the Applachian region for many years... I thank God that we have a better understanding of the scriptures than you depict.

"Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only." :thumbsup

It is where I was born and raised as well. I was not, by any means, disparaging all the people of the entire region from which both sides of my family sprang, or at least that was not my intention. In fact, Appalachia has given us some of the greatest men and women of God that most people never hear of. I submit to you that there is no preacher out there in any of the alphabet soup organizations who can preach like R.A. West did http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wJXu29LdOU, and he was "mountain" right down to the core. However I think the isolation the mountains provide cause some to be cut off from other trains of thought and the theology suffers. Oh yeah, and I've also heard some doozies from some "mountain" Trinitarians, likw the woman testifying and saying "I'm proud to say I have 3 Gods to give MY glory to!!" (cue the shouting and applause) Once again, I wish I was making this up.

[kclee4jc]

I have heard of R.A. West. I really dont know anything about him or his churches. Was he Apostolic? Did he have any affiliation with any particular Apostolic Organizations?

[Michael The Disciple]

A post trib Apostolic.

[kclee4jc]

A post trib Apostolic.

Holiness?