View Full Version : Revelation 7:4-8
Monarchianism
04-08-2011, 11:21 PM
Is this the number of Jews that'll be in Heaven? 144,000? Will there not be more than this?
No, that is the number of Jehovah's Witnesses that will make it.
just kidding.
Praxeas
04-08-2011, 11:25 PM
It seems to be a number of Hebrews separated for a particular purpose
Monarchianism
04-08-2011, 11:26 PM
It seems to be a number of Hebrews separated for a particular purpose
I Hope you are right. It would more than likely have to be. On http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/romans14.htm
Jason Dulle says "The Gentiles are presently enjoying the benefits of the New Covenant because of Israel's unbelief, but there will come a day when the blindness of Israel will be taken away and they will be the head of the nations." <-- Which Is why I think that to be the correct interpretation.
Sister Alvear
04-08-2011, 11:33 PM
No, that is the number of Jehovah's Witnesses that will make it.
just kidding.
got that right Sam...that is what they told me too! :highfive
mfblume
04-09-2011, 09:38 AM
I Hope you are right. It would more than likely have to be. On http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/romans14.htm
Jason Dulle says "The Gentiles are presently enjoying the benefits of the New Covenant because of Israel's unbelief, but there will come a day when the blindness of Israel will be taken away and they will be the head of the nations." <-- Which Is why I think that to be the correct interpretation.
I personally disagree that Israel will be head of the nations. God is done with national distinction as far as HEAD, etc. The church is Jew and Gentile in one body.
I believe we see a pattern in Rev 5 that is repeated in Rev 7 and gives the key to who the 144,000 are. In Rev 5, John HEARS and then SEES. Same thing in Rev 7. He HEARS about 144,000 of Israel and then SEES a multitude no man could number from all nations. In Rev 5 what John HEARD was apparently opposite to what he SAW. He HEARD the LION OF JUDAH was there, but HE SAW a lamb standing who had been slain . Consider the same pattern in Rev 7. HE HEARS apparently the opposite in a specific number from a specific nation, and SEES an innumerable multitude from all nations.
Hmmmm....
I believe what JOHN HEARD was symbolic of WHAT HE SAW in Rev 5. And if that is the same situation in Rev 7, then THE 144,000 ISRAELITES REPRESENTS spiritually the church from all nations.. the true Israel of God!
Notice JUDAH is listed FIRST (Jesus' tribe) in the list of tribes in Rev 7. DAN is missing and JOSEPH is listed as a tribe. THESE DETAILS WERE NEVER SHOWN BEFORE IN ALL THE OLD TESTAMENT WHEN SPEAKING OF NATURAL ISRAEL. Something spiritual is afoot! And I am convicted that it speaks of THE CHURCH!
:thumbsup I know it goes against popular opinion, but it's what I personally believe.
Monarchianism
04-09-2011, 11:12 AM
Mfblume, He may have meant that that was the time that all of Israel would be saved?
The New Testament declares this. After the last Gentile is saved, God will turn back to Israel and deal with them again.
berkeley
04-09-2011, 11:27 AM
Mfblume, He may have meant that that was the time that all of Israel would be saved?
The New Testament declares this. After the last Gentile is saved, God will turn back to Israel and deal with them again.
What are you reading? The Onion?
mfblume
04-09-2011, 11:45 AM
Mfblume, He may have meant that that was the time that all of Israel would be saved?
The New Testament declares this. After the last Gentile is saved, God will turn back to Israel and deal with them again.
I can accept all Israel being saved, but to say they will head the nations is offkey, I think. The church has been gentile plus jew since the start. I believe that the Bible teaches that Israel will only be dealt with by way of the church, as well.
TGBTG
04-09-2011, 11:49 AM
What are you reading? The Onion?
This is what he is reading:-
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:29 (NASB)for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
TGBTG
04-09-2011, 12:44 PM
I personally disagree that Israel will be head of the nations. God is done with national distinction as far as HEAD, etc. The church is Jew and Gentile in one body.
I don't think God is done with national Israel (maybe not as head, He certainly is not done with national Israel). The context in which "Israel" is used in Galatians and Romans 11 should not be confused.
Jer 31
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
God emphatically says that He will not cast off Israel as a nation in spite of all that they have done.
mfblume
04-09-2011, 01:34 PM
I don't think God is done with national Israel (maybe not as head, He certainly is not done with national Israel)
Right. My point was AS HEAD.
The context in which "Israel" is used in Galatians and Romans 11 should not be confused.
EXACTLY. I made a whole post just about that on the forum some time ago showing ISRAEL in Rom 11 is NATURAL Israel, no the church.
UnTraditional
04-09-2011, 02:38 PM
God has never turned away from Israel. The same Gospel that was preached to all nations started at Jerusalem. The fact is, God is going to and fro throughout all nations through His people to bring one and all to Himself. Jew, Gentile, all men have the same Gospel, for all have only one hope for salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ.
The 144,000 is symbolic, I believe. Remember, what John saw was in a vision, and so we have to interpret what he saw in the vision as such.
Monarchianism
04-09-2011, 04:19 PM
I don't think God is done with national Israel (maybe not as head, He certainly is not done with national Israel). The context in which "Israel" is used in Galatians and Romans 11 should not be confused.
Jer 31
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
God emphatically says that He will not cast off Israel as a nation in spite of all that they have done.
Ask Jason about that. God has turned to the Gentiles that they may worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, while Israel remains blind. Even natural Jews have a zeal for God, but they have no knowledge. The Gentiles are required to pray for Israel. Without our prayers, I am persuaded that their nation would be wiped out by terrorists. They are a nation, but would you really say that they are the "head" at this moment?
Monarchianism
04-09-2011, 04:21 PM
God has never turned away from Israel. The same Gospel that was preached to all nations started at Jerusalem. The fact is, God is going to and fro throughout all nations through His people to bring one and all to Himself. Jew, Gentile, all men have the same Gospel, for all have only one hope for salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ.
The 144,000 is symbolic, I believe. Remember, what John saw was in a vision, and so we have to interpret what he saw in the vision as such.
Read my comment above this.
Monarchianism
04-09-2011, 04:27 PM
Chapter fourteen of Revelation caught my attention. Rev. 14:1 is about the 144,000. Then if you read on it says in verse 4 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins." 144,000 all Men.... ?
How literal do you believe those numbers like 12,000 from each tribe and 144,000 total are?
What is the difference between the 144,000 of the early part of Revelation 7 and the "great multitude" of the latter part of that same chapter? Are these two separate groups or two descriptions of the same group?
Are the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3-8 and the 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-5 the same group?
Monarchianism
04-09-2011, 04:32 PM
What are you reading? The Onion?
The majority is blind. They rejected Jesus at the crucifixion, and they remain with that attitude today towards Him.
Monarchianism
04-09-2011, 04:32 PM
How literal do you believe those numbers like 12,000 from each tribe and 144,000 total are?
What is the difference between the 144,000 of the early part of Revelation 7 and the "great multitude" of the latter part of that same chapter? Are these two separate groups or two descriptions of the same group?
Are the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3-8 and the 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-5 the same group?
You tell me.
mfblume
04-09-2011, 04:34 PM
How literal do you believe those numbers like 12,000 from each tribe and 144,000 total are?
What is the difference between the 144,000 of the early part of Revelation 7 and the "great multitude" of the latter part of that same chapter? Are these two separate groups or two descriptions of the same group?
Are the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3-8 and the 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-5 the same group?
I believe so.
Notice there are 12,000 from 12 tribes. 12 X 12000 - 144,000.
Notice also that the NEW JERUSALEM is measured as follows:
Revelation 21:16 KJV And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
It is a cube. And while there are 6 FACES to a cube, there are 12 EDGES. 12 x 12,000 = 144,000
Revelation 14:4 KJV These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
VIRGINS is a spiritual term referring to those FAITHFUL TO CHRIST ALONE... Paul presented the church as a chaste virgin to Christ. Firstfruits was used by Paul as well to describe the saints in his day. Following the Lamb speaks of taking up our crosses and denying self.
Note that the 144,000 stand with the lamb on Mount Zion, and they are STANDING while verse 8 says Babylon falls. They have the Father's name on their foreheads. The forehead speaks of the will (Ezek 3:8). What better way to show THOSE WHO ENTER THE KINGDOM, WHOSE HOUSES ARE ON THE ROCK AND DO NOT FALL, WHO DO THE FATHER'S WILL, than to show these people with the Father's Name on their foreheads standing on a ROCK MOUNTAIN?
Revelation 14:1 KJV And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:8 KJV And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Matthew 7:21 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:24-27 KJV Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (25) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. (26) And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: (27) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
pelathais
04-09-2011, 04:59 PM
God has never turned away from Israel. The same Gospel that was preached to all nations started at Jerusalem. The fact is, God is going to and fro throughout all nations through His people to bring one and all to Himself. Jew, Gentile, all men have the same Gospel, for all have only one hope for salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ.
The 144,000 is symbolic, I believe. Remember, what John saw was in a vision, and so we have to interpret what he saw in the vision as such.
:thumbsup
Most of the confusion can be directly traced to the fact that many people try to "over-literalize" the Revelation.
The 24 elders around the throne represent something far greater than just a couple dozen old guys hanging around. The meaning of the "four beasts" also to be found around the throne is encapsulated in their descriptions.
While we've had a little fun here at the JW's expense, they're hardly the only ones to have missed the Good News in Revelation because of an overly morbid literalism.
Perhaps the 144,000 are the people who receive the "correct" microchip implanted in their foreheads? (Revelation 7:3). If you recieve the "wrong" microchip - say some Chinese knock off brand like Nteli or ADM - then you'll surely burn for it. Apparently the path is so narrow in the end times because only 144,000 people can afford a real intel or AMD processor?
...Apparently the path is so narrow in the end times because only 144,000 people can afford a real intel or AMD processor?
Would that be Mac or PC?
UnTraditional
04-09-2011, 07:09 PM
Ask Jason about that. God has turned to the Gentiles that they may worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, while Israel remains blind. Even natural Jews have a zeal for God, but they have no knowledge. The Gentiles are required to pray for Israel. Without our prayers, I am persuaded that their nation would be wiped out by terrorists. They are a nation, but would you really say that they are the "head" at this moment?
Again, God never once turned away from Israel. Their blindness is the same as the blindness of all people, their sin. They can come now to Christ just as all men can. Paul addresses the church in Galatians 6:16 as the Israel of God. In Romans 11, the Church is graft into the Olive Tree of God along with believing Israel. Only unbelieving Israel is cut off, but as Paul taught, if they come to faith, they will be graft back in again.
Dispensationalism is a system of theology which does rob the Church, not bless her. It robs us of our identity, and in so doing, robs us of our covenant in Christ, and robs us of our power in the Messiah. I believe that the physical nation of Israel should be prayed for, but so should Brazil, the USA, Canada, Mexico, and every other nation as well. For all believer are one in Christ, for through His flesh He has broken down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile, and made all who come to Him of one people, believing Jew and Gentile, the Israel of God.
The head of all nations is now and ever more Christ. His people are royalty by His divine decree, and this people is men and women of every nation, adopted as sons and heir into His Kingdom. Tomorrow, I am going to the Table of the Master, to dine in the fellowship of my brethren, as the Lord has chosen for us through His servants, the ministers of the Word. Yes, I am feasting a holy day in Israel with my brethren, walking on spiritual streets of gold, along jasper walls, and before His throne!
Praise His Holy Name!
TGBTG
04-09-2011, 07:31 PM
Again, God never once turned away from Israel. Their blindness is the same as the blindness of all people, their sin. They can come now to Christ just as all men can. Paul addresses the church in Galatians 6:16 as the Israel of God. In Romans 11, the Church is graft into the Olive Tree of God along with believing Israel. Only unbelieving Israel is cut off, but as Paul taught, if they come to faith, they will be graft back in again.!
Unbelieveing Israel will be brought back in after the fulness of the gentiles...
Rom 11
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Jer 31
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
God has a plan for the Israel as a nation. They will be grafted back in. God said Israel will never cease from being a nation before Him. God still recognizes Israel as a nation.
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the (AV)calling of God (AW)are irrevocable.
mfblume
04-09-2011, 08:02 PM
The bottom line is that the New Covenant was for Israel and Judah, and Gentiles simply were allowed in on it this time. :) That has never changed. This GENTILE CHURCH and GENTILE BRIDE idea is wrong as Jer 31:31 attests.
UnTraditional
04-09-2011, 08:03 PM
Unbelieveing Israel will be brought back in after the fulness of the gentiles...
Rom 11
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Jer 31
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
God has a plan for the Israel as a nation. They will be grafted back in. God said Israel will never cease from being a nation before Him. God still recognizes Israel as a nation.
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the (AV)calling of God (AW)are irrevocable.
Israel never did cease to be a nation, but instead of physical, it is now spiritual. How is it that one God has two brides?
The seed of Israel is the seed of Abraham, and according to galatians 3, we are of the seed of Abraham now in Christ.
Also, how will unbelieving Israel be brought back in? By force, or is the door already open? Allow me to ask in sincerity, would you witness to an unbelieving Jew in Israel right now, or hold off believing they will eventually be brought back in another way? This is the heart of the problem, that this system disallows us to see unbelieving Jews for what they are, unbelieving Jews, and our need to witness to them of the Meshiach, the Messiah, the Lord Jesus.
The nation of Israel is the Church, is Christ, and His Body. Anything else is simply wrong on this. God has one people, and always will have one people, and His people is Israel, and we are Israel, of the Church. The door has never closed on natural Israel. It has always been open for them to come into the Olive Tree (Romans 11). The Gentile believers have been graft in contrary to nature with the natural Jewish believers now. When Christ comes back, both Gentile and Jewish believers will be raptured up. Both Gentile and Jewish believers will be seated together at the Marriage Supper.
God has taken Israel and exploded her beyond one race, to be the New Covenant Praise People Who Know Their God, believers of all nations brought together to be a royal priesthood, a peculiar people. One people, one nation, one Israel, the true Israel of God, one Kingdom of the one true God!
HALLELUJAH!!!
mfblume
04-09-2011, 08:12 PM
Romans 11 and the fullness of the Gentiles coming in has been purported by many to mean the rapture must occur before Israel comes in. That makes the raptured church a gentile church, and that smacks against all Ephesians chs. 2-3 taught. It is a church of Jew and Gentile reconciled to God by the cross in one body. That has not changed. The same door unsaved Gentiles must enter is the door unsaved Jews must enter. THE CHURCH DOOR OF CHRIST, before the rapture. I do not believe Rom 7:25 is speaking of the rapture, personally.
Monarchianism
04-09-2011, 08:53 PM
Again, God never once turned away from Israel. Their blindness is the same as the blindness of all people, their sin. They can come now to Christ just as all men can. Paul addresses the church in Galatians 6:16 as the Israel of God. In Romans 11, the Church is graft into the Olive Tree of God along with believing Israel. Only unbelieving Israel is cut off, but as Paul taught, if they come to faith, they will be graft back in again.
Dispensationalism is a system of theology which does rob the Church, not bless her. It robs us of our identity, and in so doing, robs us of our covenant in Christ, and robs us of our power in the Messiah. I believe that the physical nation of Israel should be prayed for, but so should Brazil, the USA, Canada, Mexico, and every other nation as well. For all believer are one in Christ, for through His flesh He has broken down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile, and made all who come to Him of one people, believing Jew and Gentile, the Israel of God.
The head of all nations is now and ever more Christ. His people are royalty by His divine decree, and this people is men and women of every nation, adopted as sons and heir into His Kingdom. Tomorrow, I am going to the Table of the Master, to dine in the fellowship of my brethren, as the Lord has chosen for us through His servants, the ministers of the Word. Yes, I am feasting a holy day in Israel with my brethren, walking on spiritual streets of gold, along jasper walls, and before His throne!
Praise His Holy Name!
You: "Only unbelieving Israel is cut off." Cut off is not casting off?
In what manner are we robbed of the covenant, and in the power of Christ?
I never meant to seem as though we pray only for Israel. Israel is standing today. Surely there are True worshippers around. See the Japanese. Atheists. Places are destroyed for the lack of believers. I conclude that they have believers amongst them.
UnTraditional
04-09-2011, 09:07 PM
You: "Only unbelieving Israel is cut off." Cut off is not casting off?
In what manner are we robbed of the covenant, and in the power of Christ?
I never meant to seem as though we pray only for Israel. Israel is standing today. Surely there are True worshippers around. See the Japanese. Atheists. Places are destroyed for the lack of believers. I conclude that they have believers amongst them.
My brother, when we are robbed of who we are, we are robbed of our covenant. Christ died for all mankind, and this death and resurrection were the means by which He has purchased for Himself a Bride, the Church. When we are delegated to simply a go-between, where we are simply here until Israel is brought in, according to dispensationalism, we loose site of our eternal covenant.
Israel's casting off is their unbelief. Our casting off is our unbelief. One in the same.
You said, "I conclude that they have believers amongst them." If there are believers among them, then the nation has not been cast off, but is as available to the Gospel now as ever before.
TGBTG
04-09-2011, 10:20 PM
Israel never did cease to be a nation, but instead of physical, it is now spiritual. How is it that one God has two brides?
The seed of Israel is the seed of Abraham, and according to galatians 3, we are of the seed of Abraham now in Christ.
Also, how will unbelieving Israel be brought back in? By force, or is the door already open? Allow me to ask in sincerity, would you witness to an unbelieving Jew in Israel right now, or hold off believing they will eventually be brought back in another way? This is the heart of the problem, that this system disallows us to see unbelieving Jews for what they are, unbelieving Jews, and our need to witness to them of the Meshiach, the Messiah, the Lord Jesus.
I will witness to the unbelieving Jew just like I would witness to anyone else. Paul himself tells us about this...
Romans 11
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Paul was the apostle to the gentiles yet he magnified his office, perhaps some Jews might be saved. This is what he talked about in Rom 11:7. Israel has a nation was blinded, however some Jews according to election by were able to believe on Jesus, while the rest are blinded until the fulness of the gentiles. So we ought to witness to all (jews and gentiles).
The nation of Israel is the Church, is Christ, and His Body. Anything else is simply wrong on this. God has one people, and always will have one people, and His people is Israel, and we are Israel, of the Church. The door has never closed on natural Israel. It has always been open for them to come into the Olive Tree (Romans 11). The Gentile believers have been graft in contrary to nature with the natural Jewish believers now. When Christ comes back, both Gentile and Jewish believers will be raptured up. Both Gentile and Jewish believers will be seated together at the Marriage Supper.
God has taken Israel and exploded her beyond one race, to be the New Covenant Praise People Who Know Their God, believers of all nations brought together to be a royal priesthood, a peculiar people. One people, one nation, one Israel, the true Israel of God, one Kingdom of the one true God!
HALLELUJAH!!!
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
How do you understand Rom 11:25? What is the mystery Paul is referring to? What is the fulness of the gentiles?
TGBTG
04-09-2011, 10:37 PM
Romans 11 and the fullness of the Gentiles coming in has been purported by many to mean the rapture must occur before Israel comes in. That makes the raptured church a gentile church, and that smacks against all Ephesians chs. 2-3 taught. It is a church of Jew and Gentile reconciled to God by the cross in one body.
The church definitely contains both Jews and gentiles. Paul tells us in Rom 11:7 that the Jews who were elected believed on Jesus while the rest were blinded. Paul tells us again in Rom 11:7 that some not all of the natural branches were broken off that the gentiles might be grafted in. So the gentiles were grafted in with believing Jews. However, Paul tells us in Rom 11:11-12
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
However, those unbelieving Jews according to election will be saved. Their unbelief will be turned away. The unbelief is only there until the fulness of the gentiles. After the fulness of the gentiles, their unbelief is removed. And so, all Israel shall be saved!
That has not changed. The same door unsaved Gentiles must enter is the door unsaved Jews must enter. THE CHURCH DOOR OF CHRIST, before the rapture. I do not believe Rom 7:25 is speaking of the rapture, personally.
Yes, those unbelieving Jews according to election (ref: Rom 9) shall believe on Jesus Christ when their blindness is taken off. Rev 7:2 tells us these Jews are sealed with the seal of the Living God. And we know the seal of the Living God is the Holy Ghost (ref: Eph 1:13). So those Jews whose blindness is removed after the fulness of the gentiles receive the same Holy Ghost (just like the gentiles do) when they come to the Lord Jesus.
This is how I see it as of now
What do you think is the fulness that Rom 11:25 is speaking of? What do you think the mystery is that Paul talks about in Rom 11:25?
Raven
04-10-2011, 05:24 AM
I like and lean to your view, Mike!
UnTraditional
04-10-2011, 06:05 AM
Romans 11:25 should be understood in context with the scriptures before and after it.
Romans 11:16-32
(16) For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
(17) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(18) Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
(19) Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
(20) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(30) For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
(31) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
(32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The mystery is the grafting in of the Gentiles to the Olive Tree. The fullness of the Gentiles refers more than likely to our work in ministering the Gospel to Israel, to the natural Jews. When that work has run it's course, then all true Israel shall be saved. The fulness of the Gentiles is described in the verse following, not as a time in which the Gentile Church will be dominant, but the work of God through the Gentiles to reach natural Israel.
In other words, my dispensational believing friends, Romans 11 speaks both to the ingrafting of the Gentiles with believing Jews, as well as our work in ministering to unbelieving Jews, for God has not cast them off, but is still reaching out to them by grace through faith to bring them unto Himself through His showing mercy to the Gentiles. Dispensational pre-trib theology has no candle in the darkness in this scripture.
God is not turning back to natural Jews, for He has never turned away from them.
mfblume
04-11-2011, 08:29 AM
The church definitely contains both Jews and gentiles. Paul tells us in Rom 11:7 that the Jews who were elected believed on Jesus while the rest were blinded. Paul tells us again in Rom 11:7 that some not all of the natural branches were broken off that the gentiles might be grafted in.
Amen.
ISRAEL in Romans 11 is purely natural Israel as per context. Paul was a natural Jew and was of the remnant who were on the olive tree.
So the gentiles were grafted in with believing Jews. However, Paul tells us in Rom 11:11-12
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
However, those unbelieving Jews according to election will be saved. Their unbelief will be turned away. The unbelief is only there until the fulness of the gentiles. After the fulness of the gentiles, their unbelief is removed. And so, all Israel shall be saved!
Amen.
Yes, those unbelieving Jews according to election (ref: Rom 9) shall believe on Jesus Christ when their blindness is taken off. Rev 7:2 tells us these Jews are sealed with the seal of the Living God.
I do not believe the people of the 144,000 are natural Jews, although there will obviously be some natural Jews in that number. As I stated in another thread, JOHN HEARD the number and what kind of people they were. 144,000 from tribes of Israel. Then HE SAW an innumerable number from all nations. What he HEARD and what HE SAW were opposites. Specific number versus innumerable. One nation versus all. But this same PATTERN was seen in Rev 5, and it regarded one and the same entity! John HEARD a lion of Judah prevailed to open the sealed book. But HE SAW a lamb slain who was now standing who took the book. How opposite can you get from a lion to a slain lamb? But the LION WAS THE LAMB! SO, on that basis, and on how born again people are called the ISRAEL OF GOD in Gal 6, I claim the 144000 from 12 tribes are the innumerable from all nations since God sees all in the church as SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.
Not only that, but there is something offkey about the twelve tribes listed in Rev 7 that reveals it is not the normal and natural Israel one might think. JUDAH is listed first, the tribe where Mary came from and birthed Jesus. JUDAH was never listed first in the old testament. JOSEPH is listed as a tribe and was never considered a tribe in Israel. EPHRAIM is missing. DAN is missing. This is not the natural Israel we all know and love.
Anyway, just a side point since you connected Rev 7 with Romans 11. We are sealed with the Holy Ghost, and those 144000 stand spiritually as the church. (But I know this smacks against pretrib theology since that means there are tribulation church members!)
And we know the seal of the Living God is the Holy Ghost (ref: Eph 1:13). So those Jews whose blindness is removed after the fulness of the gentiles receive the same Holy Ghost (just like the gentiles do) when they come to the Lord Jesus.
I agree, but I do not believe Rev 7 proves that.
This is how I see it as of now
What do you think is the fulness that Rom 11:25 is speaking of? What do you think the mystery is that Paul talks about in Rom 11:25?
This is really a good question! For centuries up until 1830 when dispensationalism came along saying it was the rapture, scholars thought this foretold that there would be a massive revival of Gentiles, and then with these newly added massive number of members to the church a concerted effort would then go forth to evangelize natural Israel and a great massive number of Israel would be saved.
One key is to determine what FULLNESS refers to. The term is used already earlier in Romans 11.
Romans 11:11-12 KJV I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (12) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Notice it is ISRAEL'S FULLNESS mentioned in verse 12 as opposed to Gentiles' fullness in verse 25. And this FULLNESS refers to FULL RETURN according to the CEV translation ESV says FULL INCLUSION. So it seems to refer to a massive amount of people from a specific kind of people coming into the church.
mfblume
04-11-2011, 08:42 AM
Notice how ISRAEL was CHOSEN at the start. They personally had no choice. God made the choice. But then they disbelieve, and Gentiles come in BY THE MERCY OF GOD, not election. And this puts the Jews in the place of unbelieving Gentiles. But, then, GOD"S MERCY takes these unbelieving Jews and BY MERCY SAVES THEM. So we find the church comprised of PEOPLE SAVED BY MERCY ON ALL SIDES! Had Israel not fallen away, there would have been no MERCY to the GENTILES. But Gentiles get in by mercy and Israel later comes back by the same mercy, so that in the end everyone is saved BY MERCY!
Paul said this very thing in Romans 11.
Romans 11:30-32 KJV For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (31) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
This takes us back to Romans 2 where Israel was deemed sinners as much as Gentiles,despite Israel's upbringing under Law. Grace demands EVERYONE be regarded as a sinner and EVERYONE is guilty so that EVERYONE is saved by MERCY and FAITH, and no one is saved by deeds of the law!
Romans 3:19 KJV Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Then it is as if Paul took a glory spell, thinking of how awesome God's wisdom is in all of this and says...
Romans 11:33-36 KJV O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (34) For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? (35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? (36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
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